Stephen Gutowski  0:00  
President Biden withdraws as ATF director nominee after a series of exclusive reports from the relay and interview vcdl. President though bank leave that more on this episode of the weekly reload podcast. I gave him poison, just for fun. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Stephen Gutowski, I'm the host of the weekly reload podcast and the founder of the reload calm. I'm here with contributing writer Jake fogelman. To talk a little bit about this week's news. We're gonna start with the biggest news of the week, I think, which was that President Biden withdrew his ATF nominee after a series of exclusive stories were published in the reload about allegations he had made racist comments while working in the ATF Detroit division. And that black agent had accused him of trying to effectively end his career by a alleging he'd cheated on a promotion assessment. The agent claims that essentially, Chipman had a racial motivation for making that complaint and also that the investigation that followed exonerated him from shipments allegations. And he was effectively cleared. But his career had been sidetracked for several years at that point. And he retired shortly after that. The DOJ had confirmed that shipment did initiate a investigation into an agent during his career in the FBI, the DOJ did not give details on anything else beyond the existence of the investigation. They didn't say what the outcome was the agent obviously claimed he was cleared. And they wouldn't release the investigation either to the reload or to Congress. Senator Grassley has requested a copy of it from the Office of Inspector General who carried out the investigation at the time. But either way these stories damaged his chances at the nomination. And now the president has pulled him after failing to get even 50 democratic votes. They didn't need support from any of the Republicans. They only needed the Democratic caucus to get him through and they could not accomplish that and decided to pull him this week. So Jake, you wrote a little bit about what the White House is saying. Now what they said about this decision what they said about Chipman, you give us a little bit of a rundown on what what they're what they're saying.

Jake Fogleman  2:42  
Sure, so a couple hours after the news broke that he was likely going to have his nomination polled. The White House released a statement where the President, you know, essentially stood by Chipman lavished praise saying he's had a great career in the ATF had the support of law enforcement would have been a great ATF director. But he was pulling him anyway. He proceeded to blame Republicans and the gun industry for his demise, essentially saying republicans did everything they could stood in lockstep to block this nomination. He didn't acknowledge the fact that a couple of senators, as you pointed out on his own side, we're uncomfortable with the nomination.

Stephen Gutowski  3:21  
Yeah, angus king would be one of the key dissenters. He's an independent from Maine, but he caucuses with Democrats and you also had Joe Manchin and Kristen cinema, positive tester, john tester as well. So that, you know, it was really the issue was with getting democrats on board. But you're right, the President did blame Republicans who all came out publicly against Shipman's nomination, which was sort of a rare show of total unity on on a nominee. Even the moderate republicans like Susan Collins was one of the first ones to come out and say she was not going to vote for Chipman.

Jake Fogleman  3:57  
So yeah, after the White House's statement, Jen Psaki gave a press conference where she was asked, you know, kind of reiterate the President's thoughts on the matter. And she pointed out that they're actually looking for another role for Chipman possibly in the administration. So this might not be the last we've seen of David chiton.

Stephen Gutowski  4:15  
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where they try to put him they've said they don't want to create a guns are as some of these right gun control groups have push for in the past the sort of cabinet level, but not senate confirmed position. The you know, the president says he doesn't want to do that but he's going to find some other role for Chipman which is interesting because there's all these unresolved questions about his his past and especially these allegations that he made racist remarks and torpedo torpedo effectively, a black agents career. You know, there's still a lot we don't have answers for the DOJ denied in a statement to to the reload, that Chipman has any sort of racial bias And they claim that he, he had had two complaints filed against him. One we believe is related to the racist is the racist the allegation of racist comments in Detroit. And the DOJ said that those complaints were found to be meritless. But we don't have any. We don't have a copy of the complaints, we aren't able to see what was actually alleged in writing. We don't see why he was cleared, why they were judged to be meritless. We don't have a copy of the investigation into the agent that Chipman initiated, we, you know, there's a lot that hasn't been fully answered on all of these things. And so it'll be interesting to see if anyone else frankly, outside of conservative media or the reload or takes any interest in this, they haven't so far, they've kind of, you know, buried the story they write. Occasionally, it's been mentioned in passing in some of the major outlets, but there's been very little follow up on it. And it's almost as though it doesn't matter whether any of this is true to some of the people covering this story, which is disconcerting to me, frankly, I would like to know, if this person is going to be put into a government position as a bias against African Americans or not, he hasn't even come out and made any statements denying any of this. Neither is the White House, frankly, the DOJ has on his behalf, I guess, but but he's been silent, hasn't answered any questions. And we haven't seen the core documents at the center of all this stuff. So

Jake Fogleman  6:46  
right. To that point. I know when the when the White House was given that statement, they weren't even asked about the comments. Just the fact that a lot of these media outlets didn't pick up the story that that we were covering kind of allows that to happen. They never had to answer for those questions, especially even now that they're planning for a future role for him and the federal government.

Stephen Gutowski  7:04  
Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty concerning. But there's also the question of what happens now with the ATF director nominee, and I have a piece over at the reloader member exclusive piece. By the way, if you join the reload comm not only will you get access to a member exclusive pieces like this one, but you'll get the podcast a day early. So make sure you go over to the reload COMM And check out some of our membership options. But in that piece, I discuss, you know, what's the path forward for the White House. Now that they've pulled Chipman it's difficult, actually to see how they're going to get another opportunity to get someone confirmed in the President's first term. And obviously, he's not guaranteed to have a second term and get another opportunity like this. Because the problem is, and I expand a lot more on this in the piece, but the problem is, now they withdrawn. Chipman best case scenario is they have some sort of deal already worked out with Angus Macqueen or angus king, I keep mixing up those two did the sun came up to but angus king, the Senator from Maine. Maybe they have some deal worked out with him and the other moderates for a replacement candidate. I know that source told me that when King met with the White House, he presented at least two names for consideration. And both of those are well one is the current Acting Director, Richardson and another one is a former acting director from 2019. And so he's putting forth these sort of career ATF guys who don't have the same sort of explicit work with gun control groups that that shipment had and as of now don't have the same kinds of questions about his character that were raised by former ATF agents in the reload pieces, because it also went beyond obviously the racial aspect. A lot of these guys were concerned about his temperament and that he might retaliate against agents who don't share his point of view on on gun control. And that his his adversarial stance towards the industry could actually harm the ability of the agency to carry out its main mission of arresting criminals who trafficking guns or try to buy guns, but right. You know, even if they have this deal, where they've gotten another nominee already in mind, who's more palpable to some of these moderate Democrats, it's going to be difficult to get anyone through the process before the end of this year. Especially given all the other things that they have coming up like the debt limit, the budget, the big spending bill that they're still fighting over. There's a lot of things that are going to be on the Senate's calendar that aren't movable for something like an ATF nominee. And then then you're getting into an election year in 2022, which just makes moderate democrats less likely to want to talk about this issue at all, let alone vote on an actual nominee unless they're far less controversial than David Shipman was. And then the problem with that is, if you find a less controversial nominee than David Shipman, are they going to be somebody that the gun control groups who employed and pushed Chipman are actually excited about like that, that they're gonna be happy with? Right? Because I don't think that's a guarantee at all. So you're stuck in this catch 22 situation. And then you have to rely on the midterms. being better for Democrats than everyone expects them to be not only holding the Senate, but probably gaining a seeder too, so they can make this this path to 50. easier. And that's where like, you get into territory of thinking, maybe there's no real opportunity to appoint somebody that's going to actually get through, right at all, in the first term, before the next presidential election. If he If not, obviously, if he wins re election and they have a big year. That's just so far off in politics, it might as well be 100 years in the future. Exactly. You know, that's what they feel like they need to get what they actually want. Right. So, you know, the,

so there's a lot going on with the Chipman nomination. And, you know, I also should say, just real quick that this is exactly why the reload exists. This is why I founded it to report these kinds of stories that other people are either unwilling or unable to report. I haven't seen any other outlets from the New York Times to The Washington Post to Politico, CNN, whoever, you'd name Fox News included, that have been able to actually get ATF agents to talk to them about any of this. It's remarkable I want and, you know, to me, that's either because they're not trying as hard as they might with Donald Trump nominee or job of george bush nominee, or it's because they simply don't have the same kind of sourcing that we do either way. I think it shows how important the reload is, in the grand scheme of things and what we can really accomplish here, even though we're, frankly a tiny outlet that's entirely funded by our readership. So I just think that's important to note like this is where the reload has real impact. This is how much what we do can inflate influence things that that happen at the highest levels of government. This is only the second nominee that Joe Biden has had to pull from consideration. And it's difficult, it's impossible to look at the situation and think that the reload stories had no effect on that, because I think it's plainly obvious that they had a significant effect, even without the additional coverage from other major media outlets. So I just figured out what to say. And, obviously, we have a lot of other things that happened this week. You know, this was the most important thing. So I wanted to commit, you know, significant amount of time to it. But we also had, Jake did a great piece on the pistol brace ban, which the comment period ended on this week. Right, Jake? What day did it end?

Jake Fogleman  13:54  
Yeah, Wednesday at midnight.

Stephen Gutowski  13:56  
It ended how many comments did the get published that

Jake Fogleman  13:59  
a little over 209,000 comments, which is and as they've acknowledged some of the highest comments they've ever had on a federal rule change. So it's pretty big. Yeah.

Stephen Gutowski  14:10  
Absolutely. And you were able to get the ATF to give you comment on that situation and tell you what, what's next for the rulemaking process there where things go from here, which people can head over and read. That's obviously a huge story that's going to potentially impact millions of gun owners in America who own ar fifteens with pistol braces and other firearms. Then we also had de Keller filed a new lawsuit of Heller v. DC fame, some of the landmark Supreme Court case, he is now going after the city over its ban on ghost guns, which is actually really a ban on all manufacturing of firearms, even if you're licensed by the federal government to do so. Which one We wrote about that as well got an exclusive comment from Heller himself in the piece, which I don't believe any other outlet has either. Same for the ATF comment on the brace piece. So you know, there's a lot of a lot of stuff happening this week. That's just the tip of the iceberg. But the treatment stuff was most important. There's really a lot going on, and we covered it all. And in fact, there was also a lawsuit, a defamation lawsuit filed by the Virginia citizens Defense League against the coalition to stop gun violence over this labeling of the gun group as a domestic terror organization, which we actually now are going to go over to my interview with the head of the vcdl about this situation, as well as the Virginia governorship rates, which is heating up right now. That's an off year election, and it's one that has a lot of consequences most likely for gun owners in Virginia. So we're going to discuss all that with Philip Van Cleave here next. So make sure you stay tuned. I'm here with Philip Van Cleave is the president of the Virginia citizens Defense League. Philip, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the organization? Yeah, the

Philip Van Cleave  16:14  
Virginia citizens Defense League was formed back in late 1994, at a time in Virginia, when you had to beg permission to get a concealed carry permit. And so people couldn't get them at all others can get them easily. It was just unfair. So we that's what we formed. And that's what we do basically got overturned the very first year, that was quite a victory. So we are a way to mentally lobby the General Assembly to protect our gun rights. We also are a watchdog. If local government or the state government decides to do something that's unconstitutional or attack our gun rights to do something illegal, we get involved, including lawsuits if necessary. And we're also an educational organization, our members really understand gun rights firearms in general, the whole bit we our focus is gun rights and nothing else.

Stephen Gutowski  17:12  
Sure. Sure. Certainly. And obviously, your grassroots organization. And you've been working in Virginia for the last almost 13 years now. Right is that this has been that long since the 90s. Since 94. Yeah. But yeah, so we wrote about a new lawsuit that you guys filed the other day, it's actually a defamation defamation lawsuit filed against the coalition to stop gun violence, because they labeled your group a domestic terror organization in several press releases and leaves the claim here. I've reached out to them for comment. They didn't they didn't respond, although it did. I was able to sit to find a cached version of their one of their initial press releases that did contain the phrase that you're that you're, you know, taking issue with, obviously, and then the current version that's on their website now, has that phrase has been removed. So obviously, something has happened to do that I want you to have you heard anything back from them. yet. In this case?

Philip Van Cleave  18:24  
No, I haven't heard a peep yet. They have until the 18th. So they still got a few more in another week or so to respond. Yeah, they, they put that in there. Press Release. There were there was at least one paper that I know of that. publish that as is including the defamatory language. So we put something in our alert system, which the other side monitors, we know that they monitor which is we don't care. But they saw that we picked up on that and that that was indeed a real problem. And so, lo and behold, the next day, the word the wording magically changed, but we'd already gotten copies of it. It's out like I say another another publication had put it put it out, as you know, as was written by them. So it's it's a little too late to be the damages.

Stephen Gutowski  19:27  
Obviously, I guess it should be clear he to make clear here that the vcdl has never been involved in any sort of violence or advocating for violence of any sort and is never been labeled a domestic terror organization by any law enforcement group. Anything like that. Correct? No,

Philip Van Cleave  19:45  
we have law enforcement members, we have people with high security clearances were a slice of America. No, we've never never had in fact our relationship with police departments has been outstanding. We've You know, we've certainly worked with the Capitol Police, Fairfax police, Richmond Police, we've coordinated with them where we're, we're very much a, an organization that believes in law and order and, and rights and we've had zero problems, because that's how we are we're not expecting to have any problems. We try to be careful.

Stephen Gutowski  20:24  
And I mean, I suppose that's why you're concerned by these comments from the coalition to stop gun violence.

Philip Van Cleave  20:32  
Yeah, we've had, we had some of our members saying, well, well, you know, if Gosh, if you're classified as a domestic terror organization, I, you know, I've got a security clearance, I can't be affiliated with that, if that were true. Same thing with police officers and so forth. Yeah, that that's, that's caused grief, amongst our membership. And it's the attempt is to damage our credibility when we, you know, when we fight our fights in the courts, and in the General Assembly.

Stephen Gutowski  21:04  
Sure. And now, obviously, you guys are not new to this sort of situation, you filed a defamation lawsuit against Katie Couric, back a couple years ago over her documentary, where she took some of your members out of context, by editing in a period of silence that made them appear as though they didn't have an answer to one of her questions. However, obviously, that that suit didn't succeed. So why, you know, why do you think this one will especially, you know, given how difficult it is to actually succeed with a defamation lawsuit, in court?

Philip Van Cleave  21:44  
Well, there, it's sort of apples and oranges. how those two suits are and what what happened in both cases. In the first case with Katie Couric, it was a matter of editing in, as you mentioned, total silence where we actually had a response to a question she asked, it looked like we were dumbfounded. And so that gave the wrong impression. And now you're into impressions and other things. It's, it's very different than somebody coming out and saying that we are a domestic terror organization. When you do that, that's it's a whole different world. It might be one thing if I said, Well, I, I don't know, I think Stephen Gutowski, I don't know, he looks like a criminal type to me, as far as I'm concerned. That'd be very different than me saying, Stephen Gutowski was involved in a rape in Louisiana in in 2002. Right? Very different world. Now you've been accused of something that could cost you your family, cost you your job. You know, otherwise, I'm just pontificating people ignore other people's pontifications. But you state something like that, in fact, and that's in essence, what they've done to us.

Stephen Gutowski  22:57  
Okay. It's very

Philip Van Cleave  22:58  
different than the moment of silence that they put in the Katie Couric put Sure, sure.

Stephen Gutowski  23:04  
But obviously, you know that these cases are very difficult to in general, even even with statements of fact, like you're, like you're talking about here, oftentimes, especially when you're dealing with an organization like coalition to stop gun violence, which is very hyperbolic in how it puts out. Its press releases. You know, oftentimes, it seems to me just yeah, I'm not an expert in the field. So I don't I don't want to anyone to take anything definitive from what what I'm saying here. But my observations of these sorts of suits is that they oftentimes, will, will fail even when the facts are sort of undisputed, like, obviously, when not a domestic terror organization and any sort of factual sense of that label. But, you know, you see this a lot with media figures being sued for making outrageous statements about other people with VTS vcdl being a, you know, a well known public group, the standard is so high in those cases, that it can be very difficult to meet it and actually get the result. Although I you know, I suppose you can also get results without getting a judgment in your favor, I guess, I guess, would be I know, they I mean, they've already changed. They've already taken out the language that you're upset about. So they've had some effect already. But yeah, but yeah, I guess,

Philip Van Cleave  24:31  
no legal bet is illegal. Right. The, the courts have ruled a while back that making a correction like that. It's not something you can use against an organization, nor can they use it in their favor. The example given to me was if somebody was walking on your sidewalk and they tripped and they broke their leg or because you had a stone out of place, a paver or something. And they sued you over that and you went from The paver, well, the courts wants you to fix the problem. So somebody else doesn't have it. But they can't get they can't they don't want to in order to encourage you to do that. They don't want to penalize you and say, Oh, see, he fixed that paver. He knew it was a problem. Oh, nor do they want to give you an advantage to say, Well, I fix it the case is over now. So they just say it's neutral. You know, we it's good that you fixed, it doesn't help you doesn't hurt you.

Stephen Gutowski  25:26  
So but certainly, that's Yeah, certainly you recognize that the bar is is high in these situations. But you're, you're confident,

Philip Van Cleave  25:33  
but we went, we went to somebody that is a specialist in this. And they, they've definitely thought we should move forward. But okay,

Stephen Gutowski  25:42  
and so what's the next step they have until the 18th to respond? And then, and then the case moves forward from there?

Philip Van Cleave  25:49  
Yeah, well, basically, we look at their response. And then I guess we respond to their response. And from there, I guess it's really going to be a matter of scheduling, getting a court date set. And we're requesting a jury. Okay.

Stephen Gutowski  26:07  
And this is in Fairfax County, Virginia, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Great. Well, well, well, we'll stay on top of that, for sure. Here to reload to see what comes to this case. I think it'll be interesting to follow, certainly. But another interesting area, where you guys are involved is in the Virginia elections, which are, which are coming up right now, because Virginia has off year elections, and they tend to favor the party that's out of power. And as far as the presidency goes, which would be republicans in this case. And you've got, obviously Glenn younkin isn't sort of a newcomer he hasn't run for statewide office before. He's running for governor against Terry McAuliffe, who obviously was the previous governor, before, Ralph Northam. Now, you guys, interestingly, the Pat, your Pac, your political action committee, has not endorsed Glenn younkin. To this point, why is that?

Philip Van Cleave  27:07  
Good. Glen has not returned a survey, we have a survey that we send out to all candidates. And we then tabulate the results, but that we've had a fixed rule forever. That said, you know, if you don't do a survey, you cannot get an endorsement from the pack. We need to have solid information on your beliefs and where you would take us we've got to know that. And we, so that's in any iteration, it was in the same boat. That's exactly the reason they listed why they didn't endorse him. And just like them, you know, I believe we're going to be endorsed or have endorsed the other two candidates on the ticket.

Stephen Gutowski  27:53  
So, Mitch Lowe, the Lieutenant Governor and the Attorney General tenant, Governor and Attorney General. Yeah. And who are those candidates in this case?

Philip Van Cleave  28:02  
delegate me are is, is running for attorney general. And my mind just went blank. They that the lady running for lieutenant governor?

Stephen Gutowski  28:18  
I'm sorry. It's okay. I can't remember her name off the top of my head either. But the Republican in the race, correct? Yeah, yes, they're both wrong. And now obviously, Terry McAuliffe is staunchly pro gun control and and as supported as governor, even confiscation of firearms is like the AR 15 from Virginians, so presumably, you are quite opposed to him winning? Yeah,

Philip Van Cleave  28:48  
absolutely. Yeah. There's no doubt that we were totally opposed. And he's already shown us what he can do. Right. So we're totally opposed to that. But the problem is, you end up with this, what I would call a lack of enthusiasm. Factor where, for example, Glenn young can can say, Well, I'm better than McAuliffe. I have no doubt that would be the case. It would be hard not to be better than than Terry. But the would you like his enthusiasm? More gun owners would say, Wow, did you see how well he was young and believes in? Would you? Can you see how he would Boy, you know, whatever the issue would be, they could then be excited about it's usually I can't wait to tell my friends. I can't wait to get out and vote for this guy. Because we really need him as opposed to Well, he's better than the other guy. You know, yeah, you'll get the vote. But you're not going to get the enthusiasm, which in turn could mean that you won't get as many votes as you could have. So that's, that's the problem. Yeah. And it's been done before and not successfully where the base was kind of left hanging on things like that, you really need your base, you may be trying to reach out further to other things, but you can't lose your base while you're doing it.

Stephen Gutowski  30:08  
You say very popular. Yeah, the vacations. I imagine it's a very busy time right now for VCT. Oh,

Philip Van Cleave  30:18  
by the way to win some series, I don't know why I said that. She she's the republican running guest for lieutenant governor, Mike, My mind went blank wisdom series. And I very, very, very nice black lady that I've known for quite a while and she is she's really sharp. And she's a very, very strong on gun. Right. Right.

Stephen Gutowski  30:39  
Yeah. And you obviously, as you just articulated here, you think that that lack of endorsement from groups like your group, your pack and the NRA will have a tangible effect on the race? I mean, what do you think that younkin is trying to, I guess, triangulate a position where he's not actively angering gun owners, but also isn't courting them? Because perhaps that he views that as dissent? I think he's

Philip Van Cleave  31:12  
kind of it may be a situation where he thinks that gun owners are going to vote for him, and therefore he can lie low on that and try to get for some other issues that might be of interest. I don't know. That's like I say, if that's the case, it's been tried before. And I don't know and not successfully. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. I wish he would just simply fill out the survey that would make life a lot easier for everybody. But I don't think he's

Stephen Gutowski  31:44  
What do you see, as far as the rest of the election goes for the House of Delegates in the senate? Where were you know, what's your feeling in in those races? Obviously, Democrats have a thin majority in both chambers right now. They have control the governorship if Republicans take back just a single house or the governorship, presumably that will prevent a lot of the times of policies that Democrats attempted to pass, although, I mean, even with full control, they weren't able to pass some of the most extreme policies that they had, that they had push for, and actually, the delegate who put up the assault weapons ban, the AR 15 confiscation bill lost his reelection in primary. Yes,

Philip Van Cleave  32:31  
yeah. We were celebrating that one.

Stephen Gutowski  32:34  
So what what's your view on how do you think the election is shaping up right now?

Philip Van Cleave  32:38  
Well, gun owners are fed up. I mean, they have really pushed us stepped on us kick this. Yeah, they they pad the back pedal on their agenda, but they still put in a whole bunch of stuff. That's doing nothing for crime, crime has been going up. We knew it, would they they were they're meddling with gun rights, they should not do that. So gun owners are fed up. A lot of people are fed up in all different directions, but gun owners are particularly everybody is been paying attention to this. They're tired of it. So and the other thing that's interesting is the republicans have somebody running in every single house seat, they've never I don't think they've ever done that before every one of the democrats is being challenged. And this was something that caused a lot of anger, I guess, amongst gun owners last time around that there were like 40, Democrats, East Africa with a number was that what run opposed to was like, Well, you know, now, we're telling people if you've got somebody that historically has been horrible on guns, and you know, you've been stuck with them, there was nobody running against them, you now have somebody to vote for you now have the opportunity to go to the polls and vote for somebody else. And if enough of you are fed up with this could produce some some turnaround. So the I guess the as you say, they Democrats, and you know, it's not that we're partisan here, but the fact is that it's hard to find a democrat right now they've all basically like like a bunch of lemmings have turned into a bunch of gun control. People didn't used to be that way. You have one Democrat in the house that had 100% voting record, she stands alone by herself as delegate Tyler, the next best one who was at 50%. And they're all the rest of them. As far as gun rights voting, they were down in the in a single digit or even zeros, while the Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans had 100% voting record on guns. So it's, it's a divide that in this case, the Democrat Party is putting forward you know, we're not imagining it, they're doing it. And that's why they're, they're not real. They're not getting endorsements because the PAC would be happy to endorse a democrat if they were standing up for gun rights. They have done that in the past, but boy, not this time around.

Stephen Gutowski  35:00  
What about what about Democrats in the Senate who blocked? You know, the assault weapons ban? For instance? What was

Philip Van Cleave  35:07  
their their prediction in two years? And, you know, we'll see how that goes. But yeah, they're there. The the senate still has some democrats that are not 100% on board with gun control. And, in fact, they, as you said, they blocked they work together with Republicans to block more attacks on our right to defend ourselves. And they played an important role, and they will continue to sew these elections are critical November 2, if a gunner resists this out, then he you know, basically, I don't want to hear from him that there's a problem, you need to get out and vote. And we'd have early voting this starting up. Well, that's something the democrats want. And I think we gun owners need to take full advantage of that and make sure we vote vote early. That way, you don't have to worry about yet another round of COVID coming up, shutting down everything and making it hard to vote, do it now. Get it over with get your vote in there, get your family's vote in there, let's they put that out there. Fine. Let's take full advantage of that. And make sure all of our friends everybody's voted long before November.

Stephen Gutowski  36:14  
That makes sense. Now, obviously, one of the biggest successes that vcdl has had in recent years is the second amendment Sanctuary Movement, that you're a part of, you know, amplifying, I guess, would be perhaps the right word for it.

Jake Fogleman  36:29  
But

Stephen Gutowski  36:32  
you know, that in that case, more than 90% of the states counties, including some purple ish counties, in Northern Virginia, or Virginia Beach area, passed resolutions, you know, essentially saying they wouldn't enforce new forms of gun control that they find unconstitutional, where they do pass. And so do you think that you can take that momentum from what now has been the year and a half, two years, since that that sort of grassroots sweep across the state came into play and culminated with your rally? Here, your Lobby Day in 2020? Right before the start of the last, last big event before everything went crazy? over COVID? Obviously, do you think you can recapture that momentum that was built through that movement and apply it to this election, like how much with everything that's happened in the intervening times and how much the country has changed, the status changed with this pandemic? And, you know, the number of the other things that have happened writing and the change in the presidency and all the stuff we've seen in that time period to take people's attention away from this issue? Can you realistically get those same people out to the polls now, in this off year election?

Philip Van Cleave  38:04  
I certainly believe we can, and certainly hope that we can. One of the things that would be on the top of our list, for example, is to get rid of the law that allowed local gun control, put that back to where it was for, you know, the previous 17 years, or whatever it was put it back to that to get rid of local gun control. We don't have any of our other civil rights that we divide up that way and say, well, oh, you're you're going into Fairfax. So your first amendment rights don't really apply there the way they do and the rest of the say, we don't do that. It's only guns that we say, Oh, well, that's an exception, we'll let we'll let that have we'll change the laws everywhere you travel, you got to have new rules. That's ridiculous. We need to stop all of that. So that would I think, I think that we can see some motion on that, because they that's what that was one of the very things that we were fighting when we had those huge Second Amendment sanctuary, that secondary Sanctuary Movement, the map that's Virginia that's almost solid green. And if you notice, the localities have tried to pass local gun control are with the exception of one that's not done anything yet, but is looking at it. They're all the ones that were not in the green part of that map. They're part of the 6% or 5% that that never said they were a sanctuary and in the the same sort of tyrannical movement on their side did to dominate over gun owners and take away their rights and government buildings and parks and everything else. So overall, that that Sanctuary Movement, I think was was very, very good. And I think it's continuing to pay some dividends, sorry, counties, the exception to this. They had passed that but then they had an election and got some new people on their board of supervisors. And so we're we're keeping an eye on them. So far, they haven't done anything, but they're they're rumbling about it. And that's a very rural county. Again, none of these localities have any excuse for controlling the rights of law abiding citizens, virtually none of them have had any problems in their government buildings. But they're they do it anyhow, just because they can. Sure. And what,

Stephen Gutowski  40:17  
what do you think a realistic scenario is for the repeal of that law or some of these other gun control laws that got passed? You know, in the 2020? session? How many seats to, you know, either pro gun candidates, you know, essentially, mostly republicans in this case need to pick up to actually get something like that through like, I imagine you'd need control, would you need control of all three branches to get that? What's your what's your view on it?

Philip Van Cleave  40:49  
Well, the the I think the republicans would need six seats in the House to flip it over to where they're back in control. They could then hopefully, pass it. The repeal, and then that would go to the Senate. And there we would be looking at some of the democrats that have voted, stood with gun owners in some of these issues, to stand up on this and say, yeah, this, this is this doesn't work. This is a problem. It's now very hard for gun owners to know where they can and can't carry in Virginia compared to where it was. So where then then, you know, if if we can influence it get enough votes there to get it out of out of the house, then it's a function of who's the governor. If it's a governor, that's anti gun, and they'll veto it, we won't have any chance of an override in the current configuration. If it's pro gun, then we could well get the job done.

Stephen Gutowski  41:52  
Although I suppose even McAuliffe has made deals that resulted in pro gun legislation, passing with the concealed carry expansion few years back, after the unilateral attempt by the Attorney General to restrict reciprocity with other states backfired pretty significantly.

Philip Van Cleave  42:17  
Yeah, herring really misunderestimated that he's he's just his head is our current Attorney General's head is so strongly said against gun rights. He hates him that, you know, he's he does things on one impulse, I think. But yeah, he did that. And then the the backlash on telling Virginia's l at the time, it was probably right now we have 700,000 permit holders in this state, back then I don't think it was like 500,000, still half a million. It's a lot. It's a lot of people, a lot of voters and stuff. And then when he did that the backlash was so strong that even some of the democrats are going we got to do something about this. And so hearing got thrown under the bus and rolled over a few times. He didn't go to any of the celebration of the signing of that bill, or there were a couple of minor gun control bills that got signed along with it. That was kind of part of the deal. And, of course, McAuliffe really touted Oh, with these, these gun control bills with do, which we were just sort of, you know, kind of yawning. And just briefly mentioned this thing about reciprocity. He did it because he wanted those other he wanted some some kind of a victory on gun control, which he hadn't had, even if it was a very, very minor thing. So you know, he's done deals before I don't I don't know, I certainly wouldn't be counting on any any deals. I think, if anything, he's probably gotten a little more radical since then, in the last four years.

Stephen Gutowski  43:59  
So what's your next initiative for this election? What's vcdl up to right now?

Philip Van Cleave  44:06  
Well,

we're we're continuing to educate our members, we're continuing to remind them that elections are November 2 to get their friends and family out. We'll be pushing again hard to say you know, get go ahead and vote absentee. Get your ballots, get those in, do it now. Get it, get it over with. We will probably be running a few advocacy ads in the media coming up soon, right before the voting starts. So we're working on things of that nature. Again, it's important for people to understand the history of of what's going on, including things that McAuliffe has done. So people sometimes tend to forget and what he said he's going to be doing in his current As he's running for office, he's been talking about all kinds of things assault weapon bans, and so forth. Right. And we want to make sure people are aware of that. Certainly.

Stephen Gutowski  45:10  
All right. Well, we appreciate you coming on and talking to us a little bit about the suit that you guys are involved with, as well as the upcoming election here in Virginia. I'm actually in Alexandria, Virginia, for anyone who's who isn't aware of that already, and have experienced the local gun control laws, my condolences a wonderful place to live. But certainly, I it's a pretty areas, but they do have, they are one of the areas that passed the local restrictions that you referred to earlier. And it does have a real world everyday impact on me personally, and lots of people who live around here, of course, but But yeah, well, we'll have you back on hopefully, again, in the future, maybe when the election gets a little bit closer to give us the inside view of what's what's happening on the ground, in the gun rights movement in the state. So really appreciate you coming on. And we'll talk to you again soon. All right. Well, thank you, Steven, appreciate being on. Alright, I'm here with john McAdams, who is a reload members part of our new segment where we talk to some of the reload members try to get to know people in our new community here. If you want to join the reload and become a member yourself, you can head over to the reload comm where you can look at the options to buy a monthly membership or a yearly membership where you actually get two months for free. So john, can you tell us a little bit about your background? You know, what, how'd you get into guns? You know, where are you from that sort of thing. What do you do?

John Mcadams  46:41  
Sure. Thanks, Steven. First off is great being on the podcast. Thanks a lot for having me today. I'm originally from Texas. That's actually where I live now, after a long, long and winding road to kind of take me back here. I grew up with guns. My dad and my grandfather were both big into shooting and hunting as well. And so I started a company accompanying them field from a very young age. And my dad was in the army, he was in law enforcement. I followed him down the army path I served 10 years. So I lived kind of all over the country and hunted in a lot of different places in my time in the in the military. And so it was something I always enjoyed. And then when I got out of the army, I decided to go to work for myself providing a resource that right it's kind of a sober, serious, like, no, no baloney, look at Okay, this is this is the information that that can really help you getting started or taking your hunting game to the next level, regardless if you want to be hunting deer or going to Africa, or hunting elk or something like that.

Stephen Gutowski  47:44  
Wonderful. And now you run a podcast called the the big game hunting podcast, right?

John Mcadams  47:50  
That's right. Yeah. So I started the big game hunting blog back in 2012, still right for it, and then started the big game hunting podcast in 2019. And that's also still going strong.

Stephen Gutowski  48:01  
And I've actually been on that podcast too. If people want to head over to Apple podcasts or whatever the their favorite podcasting app is to check it out. They totally should. But what made you move from, you know, your sort of traditional kinds of of hunting that you see in most parts of the country, whitetail deer and hogs and things like that into big game? What What was that transition? Like? What what motivated?

John Mcadams  48:26  
Sure, so you know, like you said, I grew up hunting whitetail deer in a typical way that a lot of people do 100 from a deer stand. And it was kind of weird for animals to combine. It was a lot of fun, and I had many good, really good years doing that. But my time in the military took me to a lot of different places, New York, Kentucky, Georgia, Washington, El Paso. So especially when I went up to Washington, the type of game that they had there was very different. There are whitetail deer, blacktail deer, mule deer in Washington, but especially in the eastern part of the state, it's much more open. And it lends itself to a different type of hunting, more of a spot in stock type approach, where it's much more proactive, where you get up on a knob and you start looking for game yourself. Once you spot it, then you make a move on it and try and get within shooting range. And so there's so much more proactive, more exciting ways to hunt in many cases. And so I really started enjoying that type of hunting. And then when I moved down to El Paso, it really continued and I hunted in Arizona and New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming when I lived out in West Texas. And also, as you can imagine, living in the southwest like that much more open train you see really far, your game densities aren't as high there but you can see so much farther. So in the cases you will spot more game and those type areas then you would hunting and really thick forest in many places east of the Mississippi. So it was a type of hunting I really enjoyed the country was beautiful. The game was very interesting and unique. All fun to hunt in their own ways, that way, and so your dancer Question was really kind of just where I lived. And it was one of those things that a lot of people, you see hunting TV shows with people hunting elk, and mule deer and whatnot. So I was always curious about it. So it was really fun to get out there and get a chance to hunt a lot of those animals myself.

Stephen Gutowski  50:13  
No, that's fascinating. I, you know, I think it's interesting to talk to, you know, hunters like yourself, because I, I'm not a hunter myself, and I always want to find out why people, you know, engage in the kind of different uses of guns that they do. And this is an area where, you know, there's First of all, there's a lot of sort of misinformation out there on hunting and conservation and, and the, the connection between those two things. And it's also, you know, a lot of people who don't understand the culture of hunting. And so it's, I think it's good to have somebody on who, who does understand who does the hunting and all sorts of different game. And get your point of view as to why you know, why you do this, why, why you think more people moved into hunting over the last year with the pandemic, right. I mean, there was a lot of, there were meat shortages, and there was a lot of your traditional sort of hobbies got shut down. So I guess that move people into wanting to try hunting for themselves again? Or for the first time? Have you seen that yourself? Have you noticed that trend? And if so, definitely thinks what do you think that's driving it? Is it those factors? Or is there something else going on, too,

John Mcadams  51:36  
I think those are the two primary factors you just talked about with one, you know, just kind of uncertainty what's going on, you want to get access to your your own your own meat. And on a good year, right, I can go a whole year and not in a store bought me you shoot a couple of gear, you shoot an elk, something like that, you can get several 100 pounds of meat off of a off of a big bull elk, and even more if it's a moose. And there was already kind of a push going that way anyway. And in the years prior to COVID, where more and more people were starting to take more interest in where their food was coming from. And so like I said, there's a lot of people that were just becoming interested in pumping for the meat and food aspects of it COVID accelerated that with the issues that were going on with the meat factories and just uncertainty of what was going on. And then at the same time, I think people were just looking for something to do last year, you couldn't go to concerts, or sporting events, or any of that sort of thing. And so one of the things you could do was go spend time outside, so people started hiking, camping, hunting, fishing. And so there were people that came to hunting for the first time for those reasons. And there were also a lot of people that used to hunt for whatever reason that started hunting again, in 2020, or 2021. Due to a lot of those same factors. You know, I couldn't tell you exactly how many people started hunting, you know, for the first time or kind of returned to it last year. I know that Arizona assault over 20,000 additional applicants from 2019 to 2020 in their antelope and elk draw. And so that's just that's just one state for one draw that they had. So we're talking tremendous numbers of people that have that have started to do that in the last year and your traffic to my listeners for my podcast, really speak, really spiked traffic from my blog went through the roof, you know, 2020 was easily my best year ever, as far as traffic goes. And it's continued into into 2021 is there's so many people want to talk about guns and all of that stuff, especially, you know, that is my focus on the hunting side of things. And my most popular articles were always cartridge comparisons, you know, the 270 versus the 36? which one should you be hunting with for the sort of hunting that you do? And I think there was a lot of people, you know, so that sort of thing. I think there's a lot of people that they wanted to learn how to hunt last year, and they're like, I have no idea where to start. I've heard a 65 creedmoor is really good. Should I buy one of those or a 36 or 300, Win Mag or whatever. And so a lot of those people, I think just did Google search for this stuff and found me that way. And so that stuff was extremely popular. And so I've really focused my efforts, really in the last year and a half on directing, you know what it is that I'm producing on the podcast and on the blog to serve those people and what it is that they that they're looking for and what they need.

Stephen Gutowski  54:23  
Oh, it makes a lot of sense. And, and so if people want to transition into hunting, and then especially into big game hunting, perhaps for traditional hunters who want to experience something different than what they're used to, obviously, they could they can go to your podcasts on on either Apple Apple podcasts or other platforms and and they can read your blog. What other sort of advice would you have for somebody who, who wants to make that transition?

John Mcadams  54:53  
Sure. So another another really good resource that I put together, especially for a lot of those sort of people. That one like you Said either want to start hunting for the first time or they already do some hunting and they want to expand their horizons a little bit, especially in the firearm side of things is I put together a site called hunting guns 101 dot com 101. I made a free ebook that people can sign up for get there. And it talks about specifically what cartridges you need to be looking at, to start off with. And this is, like I said, especially if you don't own a gun, or if you are, if you want to go out to hunt elk or something like that, here's some recommendations on some places to start. And then you know, if you want, I have, you know, more information that kind of follows on to that, to talk about specific rifles that people need to be looking at optics, ammunition, all of that stuff, is one of those things that there's so much nuance in it, just like with everything else in the gun world, that you can really go down a rabbit hole with it. And there's so much garbage and misinformation out there. And people fighting over that this is better than that. I think a lot of people just want some straight No baloney information on Okay, this is what I want to do, what do I need to do that, and I kind of walk people through analyzing what it is that you're going to be hunting, where you're going to be hunting it, you know, what your budgets like, what you want, as a person, how big you are just what you think is cool, and then use all those things to kind of decide what you need, and then make some recommendations on what it is that that would be best for you to be be using out there.

Stephen Gutowski  56:33  
Yeah, no, that's wonderful. That's part of the reason I want to do this, this segment is trying to get to see what, you know, the real members are doing in the gun community. You know, these aren't ads, but I think it's interesting to hear about some of the the work that you guys are doing inside of the gun community and to reach out to, to newcomers, or to people who are curious, you know, about different aspects of, of gun culture in America. And in fact, you know, it sounds like you have very similar sort of motivation to what to what I do with with the reload, which is trying to, you know, get it that sober, serious look at different aspects of gun culture and gun politics, and gun policy, except you're applying it to, specifically to hunting. It's what what was it? Yeah, just the last question here before we wrap up, but what, what was it that appealed to you about the reload? Is it that approach that that sort of brought you in? Or was there more to it than that?

John Mcadams  57:37  
No, you're definitely right. You know, one, the fact that you were a gun owner, and you clearly knew what you were talking about writing in your articles even before you you started the reload, I was familiar with some of your work elsewhere. And I'd follow I followed you on Twitter, you know, specifically for your coverage of a lot of things. And you, you clearly knew what you're talking about, and you looked at it through through a different lens than what I was seeing elsewhere. I don't I don't need hysteria, or, or any of that stuff about about anything. And really, the a lot of the coverage on guns really leans very hard. One way or another, I found, and I don't, I don't want a political activist telling me what the deal is with this new gun law. I want to know one, what the heck of beads first. And so the fact that you know what you're talking about, and you're able to kind of thread the needle that way is very appealing to me. And the fact that you have unique coverage on that goes more in depth into the gun news and gun culture, then then I get elsewhere. Anything about guns, it seems like you read about it on CNN, or even fox news or something like that, it has a very shallow approach to doing things. It's just like one inch thick. And whereas you can kind of dive into more detail on just what the heck all this stuff means. You know, for instance, you you recently published an article talking about what this new Texas abortion law could mean as far as potential avenues for gun control going forward that I hadn't even considered. Until I read that. And you had an interview, it might have been David French that you were talking about with this about the Supreme Court case with New York concealed carry, here's some things that are like actually likely to happen, depending on how the Supreme Court decides, and you know, I never run into any sort of analysis like that before. And so I really appreciated that.

Stephen Gutowski  59:28  
No, I'm wonderful. Yeah. It's always important, I think, to try and get some of that feedback and see what people are really enjoying about, about the site. And that is some of the stuff that I'm most proud of, personally for what we do, trying to offer a deeper understanding of what's going on and, and a less hysterical one, I guess. And, and also trying to, you know, talk to regular people inside the community like yourself, who give us some insight into what gun owners what big game hunters In this case are actually like, instead of hearing caricatures of them, you know, elsewhere or just allusions to who they are. You know, I think that's a really important thing as well. And so if people want to join, again, head over the reload. And if you want to be featured in this segment as a reload member, just make sure you respond to the members email, let me know. And we'll we'll make it happen. I'm I find this one of the best segments so far, personally, because I enjoy talking with you guys getting to know some of the members a little bit better. But But yes, thank you for coming on, john. People should go and check out your podcast, the big game hunting podcast, on Apple podcasts and everywhere else. So thank you so much for your time. And we will talk to another member another time.

Jake Fogleman  1:00:49  
Thanks a lot. It was a pleasure being on.

Stephen Gutowski  1:00:52  
And that's all we've got for this week's episode of the weekly reload podcast. Tune in again next week for you know, more, more gun gun stuff. In the meantime, make sure you check out the reload comm and become a member you'll get exclusive access to lots of posts lots of analysis, including my look at what's ahead for the ATF director position and what President Biden might do now that he has pulled his favored nominee from consideration. And you'll also get this podcast a day early before everyone else. Wonderful, wonderful benefit. Anyway, that's all we got. So I will see you again. Next time.

Philip Van Cleave  1:01:47  
I gave him poison just for fun. I had one friend. Now there's none. I made the Devil Run. broke so many bones. But none of them I was alone. I broke so many bones.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai