School of Speech Ep 23
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[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to the School of Speech podcast presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. School of Speech is designed specifically for the school based SLP to come together to discuss current topics, tackle difficult situations, and share our insights. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community that's Dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. 

[00:01:30] Carolyn Dolby: Hello and welcome everybody. I am Carolyn Dolby, your Speech Therapy PD podcast host for School of Speech. School of Speech is designed for all of us school based SLPs so we can come together to explore current trends, share our insights, and really champion our expertise. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community dedicated to the excellence of the school setting.

[00:01:56] Today's episode, we're From struggle to strength, empowering students with language and behavioral needs. We have Dr. Erin Wallace joining us. We will have an exploration on low effort evidence supported strategies that are going to minimize challenging behaviors and maximize language potential. So each episode that we have will be 60 minutes and will be offered for ASHA CEUs, 0.

[00:02:25] 1 ASHA CEUs. All right. Erin is a full time employee of Longwood University and she is receiving an honorarium from SpeechTherapyPD. com for her participation in today's episode with no non financial to disclose.

[00:02:42] I received salary as the district level specialized support clinician in the Pacific Northwest. I'm also compensated for my courses that I do teach at the University of Houston. I'm also a consultant for school districts across the nation, supporting their program development and staff training.

[00:03:00] And I received compensation from SpeechTherapyPD com for hosting School of Speech. Non financial. I am a member of Texas Speech and Hearing Feeding and Swallowing Task Force. I volunteer for Feeding Matters and I am ASHA's member. Special interest groups 13, 14, and 16. But, enough about me.

[00:03:21] I think we really need to learn a little bit about Erin. Oops, here we go. Dr. Wallace is an assistant professor at Longwood University in communication sciences and disorders. In 2020, she received her doctoral degree in special education from Virginia Commonwealth University. But before completing her doctorate, Erin worked as a speech language pathologist in a variety of settings including public and private elementary and high schools.

[00:03:48] She worked in private clinics an audiology clinic, as well as a school for children with autism and home based therapy. Wow. Her passion lies in early childhood and elementary age youth with language delay. Erin's research interests include the use of language supported strategies and their association with child language outcomes.

[00:04:11] Children and youth with language delay and challenging behaviors and also collaboration among speech language pathologists and educators. Welcome, Erin. 

[00:04:21] Erin Wallace: Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to be here today. Thank you guys so much for having me. 

[00:04:26] Carolyn Dolby: We are so happy that you are here joining us. I'm, we have a lot of people jumping in letting us know where they're, where they're at like percentage wise.

[00:04:35] I saw one at 50%. Where, oops, where I'm trying to see my chat here. Why am I not seeing more? Okay, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to look and shout out those numbers in a minute. But let's, let me see. I know that they were coming in. I don't know why I don't see them right now. That's just on me.

[00:04:56] That's on me. Okay. Oh, one. Oh, there they are. Oh, that was user error 75 percent Zoe. I'm so sorry, Michelle 40 I'm seeing a lot of 20 2030s. So it's it's out there 90 Paulette. I owe you a coffee 95%. Okay, you might be in a specialty school. Yeah, she gets more than just a cup of coffee, right? You get whatever you like supply of caffeine.

[00:05:21] Absolutely. Paulette Yeah, whatever you need, let us know. I really am so interested to get started in kind of knowing about your journey. What led you to your interest in Children with Language Delay and challenging behaviors? 

[00:05:33] Erin Wallace: Of course. 

[00:05:34] So like Carolyn said, I was a school based S. L. P. So I worked in a rural school county.

[00:05:41] That was a title one school. So from a low S. E. S. Community and I had a caseload of 72 at the highest. at the elementary school level. And majority of my kiddos I had to see in a group setting. I could see five at a time to still bill for Medicaid. And I was struggling. I had a really difficult time knowing what to do.

[00:06:08] I had kids under the table. I had kids eloping from the classroom. I had just like not your typical non compliant or withdrawn behaviors. And I just was really at a loss. I didn't know where to go. I didn't have the training with my master's program in it. And, you know, I just couldn't. Foresee myself moving forward in the schools without any experience.

[00:06:34] So I often get asked, why did you go back to get a PhD in special education and not in speech and language pathology? Well, that was the reason because I remember sitting there so hopeless and helpless and not having an answer. In on the system as a whole with special education and also just not really understanding how to support these behaviors or having a firm understanding and behavior supportive strategies.

[00:07:02] And yes, I totally could have done more continuing education and all of that, but I really wanted to submerge myself and learn about the system of special education and how to work with challenging behaviors. So. I applied to VCU and I went on an interview and I remember telling my mom that I'm only going to go if it's a perfect fit, because it's really hard to walk away from an income and go back to school for 4 more years when I had only been out of school for 4 years.

[00:07:36] So I went in and I, my very 1st meeting was with who became my advisor, Dr Jason Chow, who is now at Vanderbilt. And he studied youth language and challenging behaviors. And I remember being like in the interview, I was like, this is it. This is it. I'm coming back. And I remember telling him that my grand idea at the time was that I wanted to, I'm going to out myself here, guys.

[00:08:04] I wanted to bring yoga to these schools and integrate yoga with language. And I remember him looking at me and being like, Yeah, that's that's great. That's really a good thought. And then when I accepted the position and I got into school and I became his student, I remember him looking at me and being like, We're not going to do that because there is so much more underneath the surface that needs to be figured out first, that we're not just going to throw some yoga solution on top of it.

[00:08:36] And I am so thankful that he was that honest with me and he opened up my eyes to so much of what was really going on and really brought it back to that pre service level of the lack of training that SLPs are receiving and that even educators are receiving and how. We as researchers could maybe build that up and then transfer it to practitioners.

[00:09:00] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. I love it. We're so glad. I'm so glad that was your journey. I started out as a teacher and I felt like that really helped like with classroom management because I was a garden teacher. And so I felt like I would, I learned a lot. And then I went back for speech pathology, but I, I'm so thankful that I have that experience because I have special needs.

[00:09:24] I was the inclusion teacher. So I got that on the front end. So I'm really 

[00:09:28] Erin Wallace: yes, you got that hands on experience immediately. You were in. 

[00:09:32] Carolyn Dolby: So I'm. Thankful. Yeah. Well now, since we are going to be talking about language and behavior, right? I, can we just start basically, what's the association between language and behavior?

[00:09:44] Erin Wallace: Oh, okay. There is a significant association between language and challenging behaviors. So Holo and colleagues did a study back in 2014, and identified that 81% Of children or youth. With emotional behavioral disorder also have, and key word here, unidentified moderate to severe language disorder. Wow.

[00:10:14] And we also know that it goes the other way, too. So individuals with DLD, so boys with DLD, are four times more likely to show challenging behaviors, even to the level of, Involvement with the juvenile justice system. So in 2021, myself and Dr. Jason Chow, and two of three other colleagues did a meta analysis on the involvement of youth in the juvenile justice system.

[00:10:46] And majority of youth in the juvenile justice system have an unidentified language disorder. And that should be an alarming red flag to us. And this is the relationship is going both ways. So we know that this strong relationship or association exists between language and behavior. However, what we don't know is what way the relationship goes.

[00:11:09] It's kind of like the chicken and the egg. Which 1 comes 1st to the behaviors come 1st or. Do the languages language disorder come 1st, but what we do know is that Carolyn, you being an educator, you probably fully understand this behaviors are really disruptive. Oh, often what happens is if we think about a kindergarten classroom or 1st grade classroom.

[00:11:31] And we have a child in the classroom who's not completing their work. So they're off task or they're withdrawn and not engaging where they're hiding under their desk, or maybe, like, throwing spit balls. That kid is going to get pulled out of the class and not by the fault of the teacher, but the teacher is going to have a more difficult time interacting with that kid because she's in charge of 20 to 30 other students in the classroom.

[00:11:53] And the research shows us that that child to teacher interaction is where Children learn the most. So if that child's not getting that interaction because they're demonstrating these behaviors. Then what's happening and also this child is constantly being pulled out of the classroom because of the behaviors, because the teacher doesn't have the resources to navigate the behaviors of this student and then work with the 20 other students sitting in their classroom.

[00:12:19] So this child typically, at this point, gets labeled as behavioral and an SLP, unfortunately, is not typically brought to the table. The school psych might come to the table. The school counselor might come to the table, but the school SLP is typically not brought to the table when a BIP or behavior intervention plan is formed.

[00:12:40] And that is where we are not doing our students a service right there. When behaviors are happening like this to the point where a behavior intervention plan is being put in place. The school speech language pathologist needs to be brought to the table. And I often say to caregivers of children with challenging behaviors.

[00:13:01] I often ask them, like, hey, take, let's take a step back. Like, how would you feel if you were sitting in a classroom as a 7 year old with 20 other students? You had a mixed language disorder, so you had a hard time taking in what the teacher was saying, and then you had a hard time advocating for yourself in your needs and in your wants, or in your struggles.

[00:13:26] I mean, at seven years old, I'd probably be hiding under the table, too. You know, I'd probably be trying to lope out of the classroom, too. But We, that's where, that's why also you mentioned collaboration is one of my key areas. That's where this piece comes in because we need to advocate for our students and for ourselves that, hey, this association is here and it is present and the research shows that it is strong.

[00:13:52] I mean, 81 percent of kids with E. B. D. have an unidentified moderate language disorder. Like, that's wild. 

[00:14:00] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, that 

[00:14:01] Like a really, really marginalized population. So, why, well, my next question would be why isn't language ruled out when we're looking at EBD? 

[00:14:14] Erin Wallace: You know, I don't have the answer to that.

[00:14:16] Yeah, they're like. I'm here and I'm wanting to spread this association and I tell all of my students. So my very favorite class to teach is baby language. And it's birth through seven. And I tell all my students, they always laugh cause I'm like, I'm getting on my soapbox. Here I am. If there's behaviors, if you see behaviors, if a teacher is talking about behaviors, you make sure you are involved.

[00:14:41] If that means that you have to go out on a limb in the beginning of the school year to say, hey, hey, here are my roles and responsibilities, and I'm going to let you know. Like, if behaviors are coming up in your classroom, please let me know so I can be involved in some way. I know that we all also have a ton on our plates as school based SLPs and our caseloads are wild.

[00:15:04] Making this association known is so, so important. 

[00:15:09] Carolyn Dolby: What you, what just sparked in my head is what being a speech language pathologist, we are the gurus of communication, and we are taught that behaviors are Communication and before we deem a behavior to be a willful disobedient that a child's being willfully disobedient, which that's what we immediately, you know, their general ed and all of that, that we should.

[00:15:36] I love that step back. And we're not saying, yes, let's start evaluating all these kids, but let's give the teachers strategies. To use. Yeah. To,

[00:15:47] Erin Wallace: yeah, and that's what, you know, and 

[00:15:49] it's hard because it's like, I do get on this soapbox and I'm really passionate about it. And I also am aware I also was that school-based SLP that was like, oh my gosh, I no , I have 70 kids on my caseload already.

[00:16:03] What am I gonna do? And that's not to say you're, you need to pick all of these kids up. It's just to say that your voice needs to be a part of the conversation and to work with that educator on language supportive strategies and maximizing that language rich environment within the classroom. Another thing that I would love to see happen, and this is like pipeline dream for me, is that I would love to create a master's program Where educators and SLPs are together and like, they have entered, they have separate degrees and they do their work, but they have integrated classwork and coursework because there is so much that cannot be teased apart and so much that we could be helping each other with if we were on the same page.

[00:16:50] And this is 1 of those areas of, like, how can we create that language rich environment within the classroom to support these kiddos who are really struggling with behaviors? And then. You know, maybe it is like I said that 81 percent is a pretty grim number. So, you know, some of those kiddos might end up on our caseload and might have to go through the eval process.

[00:17:13] But that is where we should be serving them. Like, we need we're not. Following I. D. A. We're not following I. E. P. S. If we are simply labeling them as behavioral and then moving them on and not providing the services that they need to reach their potential. 

[00:17:33] Carolyn Dolby: Well, why don't we start with behavior? What how can we help support students with behavior challenges?

[00:17:40] Disposed in the schools. But what can we do? 

[00:17:43] Erin Wallace: All right. So my laundry list here. I'm going to start with a simple one. One of the most simple is just your room set up, so I don't know how many of you are lucky enough to have like a lovely room in your classroom or how many of you are on a cart or how many of you have like the little closet in the back of the school.

[00:18:04] But your room set up can be it. Really influential and a child's behavior and I don't know. Like, I never thought about this when I was in the schools of how it should 

[00:18:15] be fluid and never changing. And I think about it a lot more when I'm supervising my grad students in our clinic about, you know, the table doesn't need to be in here.

[00:18:24] The chairs don't need to be in here. Let the child be a part of setting up the environment. So, yes, we want to be proactive and how we set up in our environment. And we want to be aware of the students we're bringing into our space. So, an acknowledgement that every student coming into our space is wildly different.

[00:18:42] Some need to be really close to us. We need to keep them close. Some need a little more space. Some cannot be next to this student. Some will move their arms all about. So, you know, they need to be a little further away from the rest of the group in terms of, you know, not, you know, Having to limit their fidgeting, but also have them a part of everything.

[00:19:04] And I also, you know, we want to make sure it's fluid and it's easy to change in the moment. And that is something I really never thought of as a school based SLP of making sure that my room was set up in a dynamic manner that, like, on the drop of a dime, I could switch things around, or we could sit on the floor we could stand up.

[00:19:23] And I think that sometimes I think about how I used to be and I was much more rigid and like, no, we need to be sitting and we need to be at the table because it was kind of how I was taught in my master's program of like this perfect one on one setting. And we're all just like sitting around the table and it's just not realistic.

[00:19:42] So room setup is a big one. Another one. 

[00:19:45] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, we I had Julie Malone on and she was talking about advocating. The first school based therapist for school based pathologist. I can't believe I just said that pathologist about actually where we are given space and in the in the school setting and that we need to advocate for proper offices, proper spaces, because it matters.

[00:20:11] These kids are coming in and it matters where they are getting taught where their education is happening and what are we telling them when we're taking them into a broom closet 

[00:20:20] Erin Wallace: when we're taking them in a broom closet, or we're like on our little cart and we're just like, let's go over here in this hallway and I'll put out these tables because you're not sure you're not even.

[00:20:31] Like there's I also think about to, you know, we all feel supported when we see images that are representative of who we are. Right? And it's like, if you're on a cart or you're in a little broom closet, you can't have the materials that represent your students or the pictures on the wall that represent your students.

[00:20:50] And that makes them feel. Feel good. It makes them feel good to know that you are their ally, that you are their advocate, and that you are aware that they might be different than you or different than their peers. And if you're in a little broom closet, you don't have the ability to do that. So I completely agree.

[00:21:10] Advocating for that space is everything. 

[00:21:12] Carolyn Dolby: Because we're advocating for the students, they have the right to be educated in, in a proper space and not be and they need 

[00:21:20] Erin Wallace: to move. They need the room to move around. I am a huge advocate for movement with speech therapy. Like, some of our kiddos just need that big movement and they need to be able to like, move.

[00:21:32] Like, I love I had a student today who did like fly a fly swatter while they were working on our tick sounds. And I loved it. This little boy ate it up. He went around the room working on his Rs and like got to SWAT the ER sound in the word. And he loved it. And if you're in a broom closet, you can't have a fly swatter out.

[00:21:52] And I mean, if you have six kids, you might not be able to do that either, but movement and having the space for them to learn and the space for them to feel supported is everything. And being able to have a fluid dynamic. I mean, the research talks to us about spaces. So that needs to be carried over because it is essential and can diminish behaviors in the way that the room is set up.

[00:22:18] And one good resource that I will give you guys is Vanderbilt created a whole system. It's called iris and you can go on and it gives you like a, Fake room basically and you can move manipulatives around the room to design your room and it like lets you work through high traffic areas and like distracting materials.

[00:22:40] They are wonderful modules. I recommend Iris. Yes. I. R. I. S. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And it's through Vanderbilt. They got a grant years ago and made these modules for evidence based practices. And 1 of them is room set up. 

[00:22:57] Carolyn Dolby: Wow. Okay. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, the chat. Just those that are listening. I'll write it in the chat.

[00:23:05] There we go. Okay. Got it to everybody. 

[00:23:08] Erin Wallace: Awesome. And one of my other ones, how many times as a new clinician, or if you ever get to supervise, do you guys hear good job? Oh, yeah. All the time, right? Like this is another one of the things that like with my grad students, good job, good job, nice, nice, good job.

[00:23:28] And it is great. But at the same time, it's not specific. So one of the strategies to really implement here is behavior specific praise. We want to make sure that our students know that we are watching and that we are grateful for their presence and behavior specific praise is not comparative. It's not.

[00:23:53] About being correct. It's not performance feedback. It's about the journey. And it's about what they're doing. That might be like an expectation of yours. Like, I always tell my students, this is how you teach appropriate behaviors is through praising them and making them feel good. Or like, I love the way that you're sitting at the table and hanging out with me today.

[00:24:17] Like, thanks for walking down the hall. So nice. Like, thanks for walking down the hall with your calm feet and coming into the classroom. And so often I think that when we get, when we work with these kiddos with behaviors, we're like, they're not doing anything that I can praise them for. And we feel that and it might be true, but then it's like, we need to set up a space, whether it's a 5 minute activity where we find something that we can provide that praise for them.

[00:24:48] And the praise needs to come. Immediately and it needs to not be after the kid goes. Did you see? Did you see what I just did? It needs to be really genuine and it needs to come from us 1st. And this is something that when we have so many other things on our plates, and we're trying to provide that performance feedback and, you know, we got.

[00:25:09] Other students in the group, we often don't do this, or we'll often do it holistically. So we'll like praise the group as a whole, but there is so much evidence and literature around the strong effects of behavior specific praise. And I mean, I don't know all of you guys, like, I know it feels so good when someone acknowledges.

[00:25:31] that I'm working really hard. Like I might not need, you know, yeah, we'd all love a raise and we would all love to do things right. But like just the acknowledgement of a colleague or a friend or a boss acknowledging the effort you're putting in makes us feel good and kids are the exact same way. So I think we often get caught in the loop of praising their outcomes and like, Oh, I heard that.

[00:25:57] Like you just. You know, used an adjective or you created a really long sentence or you answered that WH question, but what about the effort they're putting in? So behavior specific praise is one of those really easy strategies that should be all about effort and the journey rather than the outcome.

[00:26:19] Carolyn Dolby: Okay. And another thing that when you said, you know, not a blanket statement I remember, I mean, even being in school myself when a teacher would say, all right, class, if, you know, too much noise or whatever, that's it, everybody, no recess or whatever it was, it used to be blanket as a child and us in I don't like it as a employee in the schools when they blanket.

[00:26:46] Things to the group. Yeah, right. We don't like it as a kid, and 

[00:26:51] I definitely don't like it as an adult, right? 

[00:26:54] Erin Wallace: I 100 percent agree with that. It is so frustrating when you get these blanket statements and you're like that, 

[00:27:03] Carolyn Dolby: right? It's almost a kind of passive aggressive, especially if they're talking about if they're trying to.

[00:27:09] Change, change, shape, no, change, shape of behavior and going forward, I would like everyone to use, you know, a professional tone when da, da, da, and you're like, wait a minute, I always do, why am I getting, why am I getting called? 

[00:27:24] Erin Wallace: Oh, 100%. No. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think too, with behavior specific praise, and I'm kind of going on a little tangent here, it often gets Grouped in with like reinforcers and, you know, there's all those like sticker charts and tokens and those have a great time and those have a time and a place.

[00:27:44] And there's research on both sides of those, whether or not they're effective. But this is like, something that hits intrinsically, like, when you give a kiddo a praise statement, that's effort based or something that, like, is genuine and just individualized for them. It's like you're connecting with them in a different way and you're hitting a chord inside of them that is just like, Hey, I see you.

[00:28:12] I see you. And like, thank you for being here. And that connection that you're forming there is that rapport that we need with these kiddos, especially with challenging behaviors, because they are so often just labeled as the bad kid or the behavioral kid. And if you're constantly being called that, I mean, a lot.

[00:28:33] Then why wouldn't you live up to it? Everyone believes it, so might as well live up to it. Right. And it's like, when you break down that barrier and you're like, I see you. And thank you so much for hanging out with me today and like, engaging. I really appreciate you. It's like a whole different, like you see, it might be for a split second, and some of you might be like, yeah, and then they go right back to it.

[00:28:57] Totally. But over time, that rapport that you're establishing by just letting them know that you see the effort they're putting in, whether it's in one activity that lasted for 10 seconds, you still caught it. And that's still something to them. That's like, hey, they noticed when I was trying, because so many other people, when we label kids as behavioral in the school systems, they don't look for those good things.

[00:29:23] They're just the behavioral kids. So it's like. And it's really hard because we as we as educators and speech pathologists were burnt out in the schools. So it's hard, you know, but really connecting with a student on that levels establishes and sets up that rapport. Absolutely. And. The behaviors are going to be there.

[00:29:44] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. Anyway, so what are we going to do? And I love when you said just a little, even if it's just for 10 seconds progress is progress. Yeah. You know, and even if it's these teeny tiny incremental moments we should know are powerful. And then that's something to build on. Yeah. I love it. 

[00:30:05] Erin Wallace: Wow. Love it.

[00:30:06] All right. I'm going to go through, I'm going to go through three more. Okay. Let's go. I'm going to do one quickly because you guys probably already know it. And then I'm going to spend a little more time on the last two. Okay. So the third one I'll talk about is visual supports. Visual supports are not used enough.

[00:30:23] I cannot preach this enough. Kathleen Zimmerman does wonderful work around this. She works with Jason Chow and my colleague Reed Center and has done a few articles around how to support language and behavior with visual supports. And often I think we use visual schedules. And that's a great step, but they can be used for so much more.

[00:30:45] So visual supports can be used within an activity. So to talk about what we're expecting to happen within this activity, they can be used between activities. So, like, your visual schedule, they can be used for rewards. So, like, You know, right now with one of our clients, we're doing a first board. So first and the clinician chooses the activity, then you get a brain break.

[00:31:09] Do you want the trains or the bubbles? And you do visuals to show them. And that autonomy they get just from that little choice of bubbles versus trains is like, yeah, I'm in charge of the next activity. Mm-Hmm, or like them getting to manipulate the order of the activities you do or even the sequence of things within the activities.

[00:31:31] It's amazing, like giving a child a little bit of autonomy goes such a long way. And we can also use visual supports to show times for opportunities to respond, to increase that engagement in our students. And I think this is something that is definitely starting to enter our world more because it is a prevalent practice.

[00:31:51] With autistic children, and we are starting to have more children with autism, autistic children on our caseloads. So I think that SLPs are definitely starting to really incorporate visual supports. But once I got to hang out with Kathleen Zimmerman and kind of talk to her about all this, and I got to present with her when I was in the doctoral program, I was like, mind blown of all of the ways to use visual supports.

[00:32:19] And it's like, Duh. Like, why wasn't I thinking about that? And why was I isolating this amazing practice to just the ASD population, when this can be useful for all of my kiddos? So I really started integrating and really press my graduate students to use ASD. More visual supports. 

[00:32:40] Carolyn Dolby: Okay. I Do you mind exp expand?

[00:32:42] I mean, I'm, so, I'm, I'm in. I'm all in. Yeah. And could you just give us an example of something out of the box and maybe we, we could bring back with us and use tomorrow? 

[00:32:53] Erin Wallace: Yeah. So, a good one that I love is the within activities that I don't often think about. So if you have a kiddo who has behaviors, a lot of times they have.

[00:33:05] A hard time, even within an activity moving from 1 step to another. So having the thinking about a task list, but on a minuscule scale. So thinking about your activity that you have planned. So, let's say, let's think of a good activity. You're going to play, you're going to play with the kitchen and you're going to work on building a sandwich to incorporate.

[00:33:30] Following directions and sequencing so you're going to create visuals within that. So, yes, you have your manipulative, but then you're going to have, like, a visual on the wall of, like, 1st, we're going to set up the kitchen 2nd, we are going to get out the play food. 3rd. We are going to make our image. So you're not going to list the visuals for, like, the sequence because that's the goal you're working on unless you're.

[00:33:58] goal includes visual supports in that. And then fourth, we're going to like clean and fourth, we're going to clean up the kitchen. So it gives them a whole list of like, Oh, this is how I move through the activity. This is what is expected of me. Because a lot of kids, I think we also need to think about universal design for learning is something that's talked about so often in adults with like.

[00:34:23] Adults learn in a multitude of ways. People like visuals, people like auditory, some people like both. Some people do well in a Zoom environment or virtual. Some people have to be face to face. But we don't really talk about universal design for learning when it comes to kids. And this is that. So like, This gives them a multitude of ways to engage in the activity, like here is this visual of what my speech pathologist is expecting of me.

[00:34:51] Here's what I'm going to do next and I get to play and I can, I can pay attention to that. But then I also know at a point that it's coming to an end and we're going to move on. 

[00:35:03] Carolyn Dolby: Right. Okay. Right. Kind of, giving, I like that when you said setting up the expectation, but also, I mean, for some people, I, for me, I don't like the unknown.

[00:35:14] Mm-Hmm. . That's an uncomfortable place for me, you and me both. So I think I would 

[00:35:19] really, really like to know what's coming next. 

[00:35:23] Erin Wallace: Yeah. And it's like, you know, we often think about, oh, well, we're letting them know the activities that are coming next. And that's great. And a visual schedule with the activities is awesome.

[00:35:34] But what about what happens within the activity? So without the play kitchen, what are you expecting them to do? I mean, we know that we don't want them to throw it, but like this gives them a visual of what they are expected to do when the play kitchen comes out. 

[00:35:50] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. 

[00:35:50] Erin Wallace: Some kiddos just need that.

[00:35:51] They want to know what their expectation is. And I don't think that having a visual out that shows that takes away from the creativity of the play because you put on there, you know, set up the kitchen, get out the play food. Make the sandwich and clean up the kitchen so you're not hindering their play when they start to get the food out and they make their sandwich.

[00:36:13] That's where the play is gonna happen. So sometimes the pushback is like, well, I feel like I'm structuring open ended play too much here. And it's like, no, you're just kind of giving them their expectations and a road map of when this comes out. What is it going to look like 

[00:36:29] Carolyn Dolby: the purpose of the play?

[00:36:30] Erin Wallace: Right. 

[00:36:32] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. I love it. 

[00:36:33] Erin Wallace: It's not. And you know, these, all of these strategies I'm giving you, some will work for some kids and others, it'll be not necessary. And that's completely fine. And that's. The value of being an individual. 

[00:36:45] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. So, okay. We've got the the room, the praise. We just did visual supports.

[00:36:50] Okay. What are you laying on us next? 

[00:36:51] Erin Wallace: All right. So these are my last two and they're my favorites. I say two for last. My next one I'm going to talk about is wait time, but I'm going to talk about it in two different ways. So the traditional wait time, our kiddos are coming to us with a language disorder.

[00:37:06] And I talk about this with my grad students a lot. And we, as SLPs, myself included, love to talk. I mean, that's why we want to help, but we also love to talk. So like, what a great profession for us. But what often happens is we ask WH questions or we're engaging with our client, and then we give like two to three seconds.

[00:37:31] And they don't have the time to engage in that critical thinking. And we're interrupting their thought process. And, you know, two to three seconds is fine maybe for all of us who don't have a language disorder, but two to three seconds, that's a really short amount of time for a kiddo with a language disorder to take in the question you're asking, process, okay, she's asking me a who question, who means people, and then to formulate a response and then to say it.

[00:38:04] And I. You know, if we could lengthen that to 5 to 10 seconds, the research is showing us we're going to get more correct answers. We're going to increase engagement. We're going to increase confidence and we're going to decrease those. I don't know responses because what ends up happening is we ask a question.

[00:38:23] We wait 2 to 2 to 3 seconds. We might offer a choice. We wait another 2 to 3 seconds and then we just give them an answer. And what we're telling the kid is that we knew you weren't going to get it right. And unfortunately, that's not what we're trying to do. But being a six or seven year old, that's how we that's how they're interpreting it.

[00:38:47] They didn't give me the time to even answer it. So, I guess they just assumed I wasn't going to get it right. And we should always be assuming. That they can get it right, and it's like, that's why we have the prompting hierarchy, right? So it's like, we ask them an open ended question. We wait 5 to 10 seconds.

[00:39:06] We narrow it down a little bit for them. Maybe we include a gesture, or we use a model of the vocabulary word or their target within a sentence, and then we wait some more and then maybe they still don't get it. So then we offer choices. And then we wait some more. And then we provide that like explicit model of the answer we're looking for.

[00:39:29] But that wait time is so key. And I feel like we don't see it in educators. We don't see it in new clinicians maybe even in season clinicians, because we feel like we only have 30 minutes and we have five minutes to go. Kids sitting in this circle that we need to provide services for, but they're, they're getting services because they have a language disorder.

[00:39:52] So they need that space. And it's like, 10 seconds kind of does feel like a really long time when you're like. I'm just waiting, waiting, but it gives them that time to engage in the level of thinking they need to. And it's, you're not interrupting their thoughts. So it's like, do you remember sitting in a classroom and I feel like I had this like vivid image of sitting in like my third grade classroom and a teacher asked a question and the one kid's hand goes up and then you're like, yeah, and your thought process is completely disrupted and you can't, you're like, I don't know.

[00:40:27] Because. You just completely just got like busted, basically. And that's what is really happening when we're like, you know, who lives on a farm cow and it's like, okay. Okay. Like, the kid doesn't really get. To participate, and we're not giving them that opportunity to respond when we're not providing that wait time.

[00:40:51] And it's such a simple strategy, but it's something that's so overlooked because we have such a minuscule amount of time with our kiddos. And then because we like to fill the space. 

[00:41:02] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, you made me feel some sort of way because in a good way, no, in a connected way, sorry. That hit me when you said being in a classroom, little girl Carolyn was not the quick thinker.

[00:41:18] And. Yeah, I, I wouldn't, I would maybe be able to get the answer, but then there was always those that knew and shouted it out all the time and they were, you know, and yeah, we get kind of forgotten or we, our voices aren't heard because yeah, I did need a moment. 

[00:41:37] Erin Wallace: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why even with my grad students, I'm like, I'm going to ask y'all a question and no one can raise their hand for at least 15 seconds.

[00:41:44] We're not like, No one can say anything. Everyone has to engage in a different, like, in the next step of thinking before we can start having the conversation. 

[00:41:54] Carolyn Dolby: And I like giving the the task to those students that need to be able to give that answer, and they have to give it first, write it, and don't show it.

[00:42:05] Yes, all show it. Yes, 100%. Because then you're giving, you're giving everyone something. Yeah, but that really just a strategy to let give because you some people just can't help themselves. I got to say it. I got to say it. Well, write it, write it, 

[00:42:23] Erin Wallace: and then we'll we'll 

[00:42:24] all share it. Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's awesome.

[00:42:28] I love that added piece of it. And then the next part of wait time that I think. It kind of is exact opposite is our responsiveness, our immediacy to our kiddos. So the way and I mentioned this previously, but in regards to educators, so we know that kids learn best and caregiver educator. To child interactions, so, like, these direct face to face interactions is where kids are predominantly learning.

[00:43:00] So we, as SLPs need to be responsive. So, when a kid comes to us, or is asking us a question, we We need to be there and present and answering and I talked to our grad students about this often because we often get caught like taking notes or like rumbling. We have our guys students have boxes that they bring in with all their materials in it.

[00:43:23] And they're like, shifting through boxes and they're missing moments with their kids and they're not. Establishing that trust and that rapport that happens within those responsive, immediate moments. So when a kid is coming to you and looking at you and you're distracted because they want to share something with you, you're kind of breaking that trust and breaking that rapport when that could be an opportunity to.

[00:43:51] support that relationship so that we can be decreasing behaviors and increasing engagement. And this is happening more and more frequently with these buddies. With our phones, you know, we're so distracted and there's becoming, there's like so much disheartening research and I like, I feel so guilty sometimes when I'm like, Oh, I did that with my own kids when I'm like, yeah, I was on my phone when they were trying to talk to me.

[00:44:19] And it's like, Those are, those are minuscule moments to us as adults, but those are big moments to kids when they're coming to you, especially like your students when they're coming to you because they're proud of something to show you something to engage with you and we're distracted. So I know that it's not feasible.

[00:44:38] I'm by no means saying, like, you need to be on at all times with every. Of all the students in your group, it's not possible, but for those moments where a student is coming to you, it's really as much as we can important to show our responsiveness or to at least say, hey, I see you want to talk to me.

[00:44:58] Just give me 2 seconds. To let them know like, Hey, I hear you and I know you're so excited to share this with me and I'm excited to I just need 2 seconds to give you my full attention and like, be transparent with them. So, like, if you're in the middle of data taking while they're, you know, doing a group activity or.

[00:45:17] Doing an independent something and you're just trying to catch up real quick and a student comes up to you and is so stoked. Hey, bud, I love this, but I just need two seconds before I can give you my undivided attention. And you're letting them know, like, I see you, I know you're excited and I'm excited with you, but I just need a minute before I can give you all of my attention.

[00:45:39] And that responsiveness, like I mentioned so many times, is going to build that relationship. Then that trust, which then has been shown to decrease behaviors and increase engagement because we're establishing that level of rapport and letting them know that we're there and that we're present and we're not distracted.

[00:45:59] Carolyn Dolby: I like that. 

[00:46:00] I like, 'cause it isn't realistic that we can give Yeah. A given's note, a moment's notice. We, we do have a lot on our plate. Oh yeah. And we do. We have more than, yeah. We have to be taking data. We, I mean, we've gotta get ourselves ready. Yeah, give us some grace to, you know, give me a minute, but I love that making sure that they know that they are seen and heard.

[00:46:23] Otherwise, it's going to escalate 

[00:46:25] Erin Wallace: for sure. And especially if you think about those kids that, like, have the triggers and are and have the behaviors, it takes a lot for them to come to you and when they come to you. It really means something. So just like, if you need the minute, you need a minute. We all need a minute.

[00:46:42] So it's like, I see you. I hear you. I'm stoked for you. I can give you my full attention and just 1 minute. Yeah, and I often work with my, I'm working with my own children, but I tell my graduate students to work on this too of like, you can even put your hand on my arm and I'll put my hand back to let, you know, I hear you and I see you and.

[00:47:04] Yeah. When I'm done talking to my colleague, or you're, you're the other student in the group, I'm going to give you my full attention. So it's like, it's very subtle, like. And I tell all my grad students, I'm like, when you're working with a group, give them this little tip because you're working with another student and they want your attention.

[00:47:23] And the research tells us. Responsiveness is key, but like, I'm being responsive to this 1. so just put your hand here. I'll put my hand back on top to let you know that I'm here and I see you and I'll be with you in just 1 minute. 

[00:47:37] Carolyn Dolby: I'm sorry if I had a Mike, it would be dropped. I know that might seem little to you, but for me.

[00:47:44] That was super impactful. Like that sometimes I love, I love this outlet for us. School of speech coming together with stuff like this. I mean, this is awesome. This little nugget is huge for me that I am definitely bringing back immediately. Just get, put your hand, put your hand here and I'll put my hand when I'm right.

[00:48:05] I mean, it's just one of those things that's simple, 

[00:48:08] Erin Wallace: but it's like supportive. Yeah, like it's like. All the time. You know, I have students that try it and we have a social group on campus and it works sometimes and other times it's still the like my hand's here, my hand's here. Do you see my hand? Do you see my hand?

[00:48:25] Yeah. And it's like we're getting there. My 4-year-old, it's the same way. Sometimes it's this great connection of like, my hand goes back on top, he smiles at me, I keep engaging, I come back to him. And then other times it's like my hand here, my hand, right? We're going to get there. It is one. Like you said, this little bit is progress.

[00:48:47] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, I love it. Okay. 

[00:48:52] Erin Wallace: All right, y'all. So this is my last one and it is real simple, but it is all about our clarity. So we often as adults are all about the don't statements. Don't sit on the table. Don't go underneath the table. Don't do this. Do not put your pencil there. Do not do this. So, I was looking into the research on these simple behavior supporter strategies, and then I also came across, I was reading, has anyone read Becky Kennedy's book, Good Inside?

[00:49:25] Hmm. Oh, I, it's a book for caregivers, but every educator, anyone who works with kids, it has so many nuggets that are just like. Oh, they're just so good. But she talks about how we're like emptying the bank all the time when we are like, don't do that. Like I asked you not to do that. Don't put your pencil there.

[00:49:45] Don't touch your, like, don't touch the student, you know, don't put the cards in your mouth, whatever it may be. And one of the things in the research that I've often done is all about the clarity. So using do statements. Okay. So what do you want them to do? Not what you want them not to do. So the cards go in your hands.

[00:50:05] Your feet stay on the ground. My box stays closed. This material, you know, and then one of the pieces why I brought up Becky Kennedy is because then she added to it and it was like, Yes, that's a great step in the right direction of the clarity. And yes, we need to give commands at some time, commands at times, because we need to control the environment.

[00:50:29] But other times when it's not dire, what about stating the function of the object? So instead of don't stand on the chair, hey, chairs are for sitting. And it's like, Oh, my goodness. Like you're right because I'm not emptying their bank and constantly like kids all day long are being told what to do, what to do, what to do.

[00:50:52] And a lot of times, yeah, that's they're learning at school. They're doing all these things. But sometimes it's like, what happens if we just remind them of the appropriate way to use that object? So, like, as simple as chairs are for sitting. And then it's like, okay, if it doesn't work, your butt goes in the chair, your feet go on the ground.

[00:51:14] And it's like taking that don't out of it or that not out of it. And it's such a simple thing, but kids don't really hear the not. They just hear what you told them. So it's like they hear the last part of it. So then they end up doing exactly what you just told them not to do. So what if we just rephrase our statement that takes that don't or that not out of it?

[00:51:40] And we say, like, your feet are on the ground, or Balls are for outside or our hands stay next to our side instead of don't put your hands on your pier or don't do this or not that. We just create very clear, precise statements. Chairs are for sitting, butts are in the chairs, hands are on the desk. And it's exactly what we want them to do instead of what we don't want them to do.

[00:52:10] And it's one of those things that's just really simple, but I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't ever do that, even with my own kids. 

[00:52:18] Carolyn Dolby: And when you said that we just hear the last part of the statement is so true, and we're, we're, we're working with children that have a language disorder and the fact of that process, you even talked about the processing time.

[00:52:34] When you were talking about wait time, they needed wait time to process what you were asking, so that then if you are giving them a don't statement, processing, maybe they don't, you're saying they don't hear the don't, but they hear put your hands on your friend. Oh, okay. 

[00:52:49] Erin Wallace: Well, and it's also like the don'ts and the nots are another step of development that happened later, right?

[00:52:57] Also making your statements more complex and increasing the utterance length and doing all of the things that we talk about not doing, we're doing by adding the don'ts and the nots. And it's like we give the lengthier directions when they can just be so precise and clear. 

[00:53:16] Carolyn Dolby: I love that clarity, 

[00:53:17] Erin Wallace: clarity, clarity, what you need to do, but in the chair.

[00:53:21] Yeah, but in the chair, feet on the floor and like you can, I always, I think about like what Becky Kennedy, Dr. Kennedy talks about a lot. She's a psychologist and she talks a lot about like the, just saying the function. Like, the function, like, pencils are for writing, you know, you have your kid that's like gnawing on the pencil or throwing it across the classroom.

[00:53:43] Pencils are for writing, 

[00:53:45] Carolyn Dolby: which for a kid, for a student that is constantly being reprimanded. You're not actually reprimanding them. 

[00:53:54] Erin Wallace: You're just telling them the function of the object. And you're not emptying their tank. It's like, you're not completely, like you just said, we have these kids with challenging behaviors that are always being told what to do and what not to do.

[00:54:06] So, making your statements more clear, and then just reminding them the function of the object. Like, at the table very often, my 18 month old is feeding our dog and giving him the fork. And we just keep saying, Forks are for Lenny! Forks are for Lenny! And it's like, you know, it's the same thing though with older kids.

[00:54:27] It's like, a fork is for picking up your food. Picking up your food, you know, a pencil is for writing a, though, I gave you guys the activity of the fly swatter the other day. The fly swatter is for only hitting your words. And it's like, you know, you're not, you're not reprimanding them and continuing to empty their tank and just being another adult that's griping at them.

[00:54:53] Right, stating the function of the object and y'all, I'm going to just put all this out there after all of these tips and like saying things and it makes it sound like so easy. And I'm like, yeah, just state the function of the object. I know. It's not easy. Like, I have been in those shoes. I continue to be in those shoes and some days they work.

[00:55:14] And some days I walk out of sessions, like, with my grad students feeling like a champ. And then other days, I'm like. Oh, God. Right? Like some days they're going to work and some they're not, but they are at least a toolbox for us. 

[00:55:28] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. So I know we all, we all want to implement these strategies. I mean, they're fantastic.

[00:55:36] I've been writing them down. I mean, seriously, I am loving what you've given us. But how do I know if I'm doing it right? Where do I go? How do I know? 

[00:55:46] Erin Wallace: A big piece that I talk about when I talk about this information is the self monitoring and the self reflection. So getting out, you know, if you can't, if you have permission to video record, if you don't audio recording and assessing yourself.

[00:56:01] So. Choosing sessions where, you know, you typically have a challenging time and audio recording them, and then going back and taking the data on yourself and asking yourself, like, how many times did I use behavior specific praise? How many times do I hear the word not in my utterances? How many times did I?

[00:56:21] Answer the question for them and not provide wait time and really just take that opportunity to self reflect and we can all we all have good days and we all have bad days. So I'm not saying don't give yourself grace and beat yourself up. But there is a huge element of the self reflection and all of this.

[00:56:40] And we take data on our students that are working on. You know, increasing their or answering W. H. questions. We also need to be just taking data on ourselves. Like I said, setting up that audio recording and then just making a little checklist and listening to your sessions where you have those kids with challenging behaviors and tally.

[00:57:01] How many times. you provided behavior specific praise versus how many times you said the word not versus how many times you answered the question or gave him two seconds to respond. And sometimes you're like, did a great job today. And then other times you're like, I used not like every other utterance and I just griped at him the whole session and I didn't provide wait time and I was just thoroughly agitated.

[00:57:28] And like I said, it's not to make you feel bad. It's just to bring awareness to like. We have to have it at the forefront of our brains. We're burnt out. We're tired. We see groups a lot. But really just self reflecting at the end of it and making sure that we're doing the best we can and that we continue to monitor and we'll see progress over time because the more we put these practices into place, the more they become habitual and it's not so effortful to include behavior specific praise or to include more clarity and wait time.

[00:58:03] Carolyn Dolby: Mm hmm. 

[00:58:04] And I and visual supports and your classroom may design. Yeah, that I mean, giving us the, the reason why we need to have The classroom, why we need to have an area in order to do this why we need to have time to make those visuals 100 percent being able to advocate, advocate for ourselves on why it is important that it's not just we come in and we do therapy.

[00:58:35] Right. There is a lot of behind the scenes that also need to be. Happening and we need to advocate for ourselves that we need these times in order to be able to do that. 

[00:58:46] Erin Wallace: And that's why, you know, I often have a hard time with, like, their research to practice gaps and how practitioners don't have access to all the research.

[00:58:55] There needs to be open access. That's a whole other talk for another day. Yeah, but. You know, if you guys need a list of references to be like, look, this is it. Like, look at all of the evidence behind why I need my own space, behind why I need more time to make these visual schedules. Look what the research is telling us and look how I can get behaviors down and engagement up and confidence up, which then is going to lead to better outcomes in our students.

[00:59:26] Like, here it is, here it's, here it's, it's all been done, and this is what the research is showing us. This is why this is so important. 

[00:59:35] Carolyn Dolby: Mm hmm. 

[00:59:36] And of course, if us, and then I what I like when we're talking about Really educating our teachers and our staff exactly what behaviors are that, that it is communication and giving them the to do these things as well.

[00:59:56] Erin Wallace: Oh, 100%. And that's why, like, if I go back to my pipe dream, I'm like, my pipe dream is going to happen some way. And somehow 1 day before I leave academia, I'm going to create at least 1 class. Where educators and SLPs are together. 

[01:00:10] Carolyn Dolby: Yes, I mean, I, how many, I'm walking down the hallway and I'm hearing, Johnny, don't, you know, 

[01:00:18] Erin Wallace: I used to hear I was like in the middle of the kindergarten and first grade hallway and then here, Five minutes off a recess, 10 minutes off a recess.

[01:00:26] And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Yep, they need to go outside. They have too much energy. Like, don't take that away. 

[01:00:35] Carolyn Dolby: Right? Right. And I think the things that you're saying classroom set up teachers need to be thinking about that. I think teachers need to do a lot more visual supports than what I see, whether they're general letter, special ed.

[01:00:52] I think that would be something that teachers don't get enough training in 

[01:00:58] Erin Wallace: right. Yeah. I love and how to do it in like a language with a language rich way by creating that language rich learning environment to maximize everyone's potential. 

[01:01:11] Carolyn Dolby: When I was going through my education for being a teacher.

[01:01:14] I always hit. I always heard the term print rich. We need print rich. But now really to dovetail that we need visually language rich opportunities and these in order for it to to generalize. It needs to be in the classroom, not just in our room. A 100%. And that's 

[01:01:35] Erin Wallace: like, that's another example of that universal design for learning, like accommodating all learners within your classroom.

[01:01:42] Like we want inclusive classrooms, but we're not setting them up to be inclusive. 

[01:01:47] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, wow. That's yeah. Yeah. Wow. But I think you have given us I love, I think there are those five that the classroom makeup visual supports. The wait time, that one, two prongs on that wait time. I love that. Did I get that?

[01:02:07] Did I miss one? And clarity. I love that. I think if we can start incorporating that, and then when we're bringing that into their classroom and modeling that, that maybe we can get the teachers on board too. That would be amazing. And we'd say, thank you, Erin.

[01:02:27] Oh my goodness, I can't believe the time. We're at the end of our episode. I love this is there I think we covered everything. Is there anything else we? We didn't get you were amazing. Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. This was so informative. And oh, I, this is the 1 thing I'm not going to forget is when the responsiveness and especially with our littles to say, if you're working with somebody else here, put your hand here.

[01:02:54] I'm going to get you in just a minute. And as soon as I. Put my hand on it's your turn. That's my biggest takeaway. And I love it. And I'm thanking everyone that joined us today. Thank you guys so much. I hate to say goodbye, Erin, but I have to say goodbye. This has been lovely. It was so great to talk with you tonight.

[01:03:14] I love it. All right. Bye guys. Thank you.

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