School of Speech Ep 18
[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to the School of Speech podcast presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. School of Speech is designed specifically for the school based SLP to come together to discuss current topics, tackle difficult situations, and share our insights. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community that's Dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. 
[00:01:30] Carolyn Dolby: Hello everyone and welcome. I'm Carolyn Dolby and I am your speechtherapypd. com podcast host for School of Speech. School of Speech has been designed for the school based clinician to come together. We're going to explore current trends, share our insights, and really champion our expertise. Our goal is to bolster our confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community dedicated to the excellence in the school setting.
[00:01:57] Today's episode is working with teachers for classroom based service delivery. We are so lucky to have Tiffany Pierangelo here to walk through working with teachers as we dive into the world of collaboration for school based clinicians. Today, you will be provided tools and techniques that you can use to support your students in the classroom to maximize outcomes.
[00:02:21] I'm glad you're here with us because we're going to explore differentiating and defining disorders, navigating difficult conversations, and discovering service delivery options in the classroom you Based support model. I do need to start with some financial disclosures. Tiffany receives a salary as the speech therapist and AAC consultant for Los Angeles Unified School District.
[00:02:44] She's an adjunct professor at California State University, Northridge, and she is receiving an honorarium for this presentation from speechtherapypd. com. Non financial, Tiffany is a member of ASHA's Special Interest Group 12, that's Augmentative and Alternative Communication. For me, I receive a salary as the district level Dysphagia Support Clinician for Cypher Independent School District.
[00:03:07] I'm compensated for my graduate course I teach at the University of Houston. And I'm a consultant for school districts across the nation, supporting their program development and staff training. I do receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD. com for hosting School of Speech. Non financial, I am a member of Texas Speech and Hearing Feeding and Swallowing Task Force.
[00:03:29] I'm a volunteer for Feeding Matters, and I am a member of ASHA Special Interest Group 13 Swallowing and Swallowing Disorders, as well as SIG 16 School Based Issues. Now, without further ado, I want to welcome our guest, Tiffany Pierangelo. Hi, Tiffany. How are you? Yay.
[00:03:47] Tiffany Pierangelo: I'm good. 
[00:03:48] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, sorry. Let me tell you a little bit about Tiffany.
[00:03:51] She is from Southern California. She's a speech language pathologist who is passionate about educating clinicians and parents on how to best support students with speech and language. She currently works with children and young adults in the school setting as the AAC consultant and SLP. Tiffany. She received her B.
[00:04:09] A. in Communication Sciences and Disorders and an M. A. in Speech Linguist Pathology from Wayne State University. She was a guest on the podcast, Speechy Sida, where she focused on the role of AAC consultants, focused on the role AAC consultants played in supporting SLPs within large school districts. So you can go hear that one after this too.
[00:04:31] She's an adjunct professor at California State University, Northridge. Tiffany is presented at Talking AAC in 2022, ASHA Schools Connect in 2023, and Closing the Gap in 2023. Welcome, Tiffany. How are you? 
[00:04:47] Tiffany Pierangelo: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. 
[00:04:49] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, we are lucky. We're the lucky ones. So excited. I want to jump right in because let's get this party started with discussing what we're here to discuss today.
[00:04:58] Do you want to start By kind of giving us some background on the different integrated classroom support models. Maybe we could start there. Get us started. 
[00:05:07] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, of course. So there are six different ones that are outlined on ASHA. So there's the supportive co-teaching model, complementary co-teaching.
[00:05:17] Station teaching, parallel co teaching, team co teaching, and supplemental co teach supplemental teaching, sorry. So, there are quite a few, and I, I don't always like, Think down to the nitty gritty when I'm deciding which one to go with. I'm not labeling them at my school. But for supportive co teaching, you partner together with the teacher as co teachers.
[00:05:37] So one takes the lead while the other moves around the class to provide prompts and redirection or direct support, and then you switch. So you're not, you're not always being one or the other. For complimentary co teaching you co teach with the teacher. during the whole group instruction. So one person enhances the instruction and the other co teacher provides visuals and examples, paraphrasing and modeling.
[00:06:05] Then station teaching is just what it sounds like. We know our little ones with our little stations and you go to a station and the little ones come to you, which that one, I feel like is the easiest one. If you're getting into it, like to fight off and you're like, okay, I know what this is. Cause... 
[00:06:19] Carolyn Dolby: right.
[00:06:19] Tiffany Pierangelo: Lots of people in those little classrooms have seen them. The little station teaching section. So then there's team co teaching. So, the SLP and the classroom teacher plan teach and assess all of the students in the classroom. They capitalize on strengths and skill sets of the SLP and the teacher and kind of play on both of those.
[00:06:40] And then the teaching partners alternate between serving as a lead and providing support. So when you have to be pretty involved and have a lot of trust with that teacher to do And then there is supplemental teaching where one person, and that's usually the teacher, presents a lesson in a standard format, while the other person, which is usually the SLP, adapts the lesson.
[00:07:00] So those are kind of all of them in a nutshell. 
[00:07:03] Carolyn Dolby: Wow, that's great. You know, I think some of us out there are going, Oh my gosh, you know what? I've done that, but I didn't know I was, it was labeled something. 
[00:07:11] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. 
[00:07:11] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. Sharing that, right? Okay. What are some examples of using classroom su a classroom support model while while in various subjects?
[00:07:22] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah so, I sometimes divide them by subjects and sometimes divide them as grades. Like, most of the time when I'm using the specific models, it depends on The students in the grade levels or the classroom itself. So if I'm using station teaching, I like to do that a lot. If they're doing any sort of like.
[00:07:42] kind of follow up to reading activity or if they have stations in the classroom, I go in during that time. I really like to do it during literacy activities because if I'm bringing my own station materials, I usually have a lot of them. So usually I have something that'll work for that lesson. And it ends up being really nice, especially with those little ones, because they're used to already hopping around to the different sections of the classroom.
[00:08:02] So it feels very naturalistic for them to just integrate that into their day. And also it's Really great kind of screen the students in the classroom kind of when you're going into like, younger, like transitional kindergarten or preschool classroom. You're introduced to all the students. So the ones that might just like slip under the radar where, like the teacher's like, I'm not sure they're probably fine.
[00:08:24] Like if it's stuttering and the teacher isn't familiar with that, or maybe they have some language slays that you just need to write a little bit of a boost. It's a very easy way to do those things. Yeah. So I really like to use that because I get a little bit of a bigger picture of that whole class with a bit more of a Individualized touch.
[00:08:44] But I also like to use the co teaching approach. So that one again is when you're partnering together during whole group instruction. So maybe if I'm doing like phonological awareness, I'll have like the mighty mouth out and be modeling with that or like different cue cards. I, I love the BRM speech cards.
[00:09:03] I use all the time. I may have those out. But there's also a lot of different models. I use with my alternate curriculum classrooms. I use the co teaching the support of co teaching with alternate curriculum as well, where I'm helping that teacher working side by side, but providing cues.
[00:09:19] Usually that has to do with modeling a C, and I also like to come in and do parallel code teaching. So, that would be when you're modifying materials a little bit for a group and you're giving. Slower pacing or just modifying that content for them. And I do that with upper elementary a lot because those students tend to need support, but that would be a lot of the times I do it with math.
[00:09:42] I'll do it with science. You can really do it with anything. But the best way to start is kind of think about your speech therapy and how you do speech therapy. Like if you do lots of crafts, maybe come in during art and integrate it during art. And then you don't have to prep everything. When you have like a million different materials, so it really is just integrating it.
[00:10:02] It's not necessarily like, okay, they're doing math. It's using your skills as each therapist to help support and lead those curricular activities. 
[00:10:12] Carolyn Dolby: That really, to me, that opens up the times that you can go in and see the students, because a lot of times in the school setting, we have just limited time, you know, If we're pulling out like that direct surface.
[00:10:23] I so actually turning our thoughts around and really looking at how can we better suit it by going in and doing classroom based. You could go in at any any subject. 
[00:10:35] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, I even when I started a lot of SLP's were like, Oh, don't observe during math. Don't do stuff during math because it's all numbers and like.
[00:10:43] All my upper elementary kids are like, but I don't understand the word problems. Like I don't, I don't understand when Johnny has five apples and Suzy has three. How many do they have when they're together? Like the unpacking the language. With the mathematic skills, it's just like really challenging for them.
[00:10:59] So being there to help support them during those times is a way for them to generalize their speech and language skills that we're working on. And it also helps them access that curricular material that is more challenging than it really should be for them because they already have challenges to begin with.
[00:11:16] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely. And think about all the vocabulary in math. 
[00:11:20] I mean, there's a ton of math vocabulary specific to, to that, or even in science, too. I mean, those would be other great times to go in. 
[00:11:30] Tiffany Pierangelo: Science is awesome. It's so fun. Because you get to, you can talk about, like, a lot of diverse subjects. So you can talk about animals, you can talk about volcanoes, you can talk about, like, Anything the ocean.
[00:11:43] So there's lots of diverse things you can talk about, but then it's also really fun when you get to go in during an experiment and like they have manipulatives and you can provide support during those. And it's really engaging for those students. They're excited to like work with you at those times.
[00:11:58] Because The material can be really entertaining and exciting for them. 
[00:12:02] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. I love it. There's a, I mean, I'm hearing a lot of advantages here, people. But hey, are there any challenges that you find when integrating service delivery this way? 
[00:12:14] Tiffany Pierangelo: There's, there are some challenges. I'd say the biggest one is getting teachers on board.
[00:12:20] So I don't want to go too heavy into that because that's a lot of, there's a lot of layers to kind of work with there. Cause. Every teacher is different. But some of the ones that I try and think about, like, that people will bring up to me as con, I try and think of ways to resolve them. So, like, One of them is possibly fewer opportunities for specific and individualized feedback, which, if they are going from a direct session, like, either individualized or in, like, a two to three person group There are going to be fewer opportunities for you to give specific feedback.
[00:12:55] So some options for that are providing alternate supports like visuals or self rating charts or practice sheets targeting the speech and language goals for them to indicate whether they did well or had difficulty or how they just felt about the activity overall. And it's really helpful for students because they're able to assess the skills for themselves and reflect on them.
[00:13:18] So that increases generalization of their skills because they understand, oh, okay, like that was really hard. And sometimes it's like, oh, that was really hard, but that's okay. I know what I can do, or that was really hard. I mean, I go talk to miss Tiffany about it, or I'll just see it on their chart and be like, okay, let's.
[00:13:32] Let's unpack why that was hard and try and give you some, some tools to help make that a little bit more attainable and easier for you and less frustrating because you don't want them to get frustrated. So that's a big one. There's definitely more there's classroom distraction. Which is a little bit harder to navigate because you don't know what you're going into.
[00:13:51] It's not like you get a sheet of every single student when you get into the room on who makes a lot of jokes or it's a little bit more rambunctious or loud. So. I tend to use that as an opportunity to help my students focus a little more because there will always be distractions if they're at work, if they're like older, if they're at work, if they're in high school, middle school, it doesn't matter if they're at home, trying to do homework, like they're going to have distractions.
[00:14:19] So giving them coping mechanisms is really helpful, or just the ability to help them learn to redirect themselves to maintain their attention to the task. And it's already in a setting where those. Behaviors are being seen naturally, so it's not it's not like bringing them to speech takes it away. It just takes it away for a half an hour 
[00:14:39] Carolyn Dolby: Right, and then they're expected to do it in a distractible environment.
[00:14:44] So yeah you're kind of killing two birds with one stone so to speak because you're you're Having them practice in in the setting that they're going to be needing to use it 
[00:14:55] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yes, it does make sometimes it makes the progress go a little slower because you're working on multiple things, but then it works so it goes a little faster because they're generalizing easier because generalizing can be such a hard thing to get to after they've already attained it, like, you're like, oh, well, they're able to do it in speech, but then they don't.
[00:15:14] Don't do it once they get to class or they don't do it with any other person. They see you and they're able to do this, but they're not able to carry it over. So L rate takes away that hurdle. So even though it might be a little harder at first, it really pays off in the end with the generalization. 
[00:15:28] Carolyn Dolby: You are turning these challenges into advantages.
[00:15:31] I didn't mean to stop. I stop you. Keep going. 
[00:15:36] Tiffany Pierangelo: You last time I probably be s and that's really teacher it's not typically based getting started again, go more comfortable if you d Speech may be going during art. If you do a lot of literacy activities during speech, maybe going during that time since you're already comfortable using that skill set.
[00:15:57] Or if you're comfortable doing like station teaching, that's a really easy way for you to bring your own stuff and go in. Although I do really like to use the teacher's materials because that's less work for me in the long run. And it's also more curricular based because even though I have supports and tools to help my students for speech and language in my classroom.
[00:16:17] It's not, I can't like off the top of my head tell you the vocabulary that they work on in second grade in September. Like, I don't, I don't know. Like, I find out when I show up. Exactly. Yeah. So, scheduling can be tricky, but usually it, it can be, it gets like easier with time. The hardest thing for me is when I have lots of students in different classrooms.
[00:16:45] Like, if it's like, One student in one classroom and that's the only student in that class. That's when it's hard for me to schedule so sometimes I can try that during extracurriculars if they have classes combined or something like that 
[00:16:59] Carolyn Dolby: Cool. I want to kind of touch back on to teachers because I think everything that you're doing is fabulous and amazing.
[00:17:06] And I know our listeners are like, yes help us that maybe we haven't been doing this type of push in service delivery model. How do we get the teachers on board? So, 
[00:17:18] Tiffany Pierangelo: Teachers can be really, really excited to work with you or really, really resistant to work with you or somewhere in the middle of really, you get, you get all the ranges when you're in the schools.
[00:17:28] But the first thing I like to do with a lot of the teachers I work with is have them understand our job responsibilities and what the student needs are. So I really like to pare back and begin with the basics. So I talk about like all of our different roles, like we have to work on prevention, assessment, intervention.
[00:17:47] And try to provide appropriate services across that whole spectrum and across, you know, voice and AAC and like articulation and stuttering and language and, you know, the whole spectrum of our job. I try and unpack that a little bit. And. I try to talk to them about how I also have to collaborate with the families and make sure that we're communicating with them all the time.
[00:18:12] Again, that's easier in the support in like a co teaching model because the teachers help you communicate with those families as well. So that does make it a little easier. But I try and kind of unpack what our role is and then also talk about academic impact. A lot of my students tend to be some of them tend to be distracting in the classroom.
[00:18:32] So sometimes those teachers are really excited for that student to leave for 30 minutes to an hour to go to speech. So talking about the impact of academics can be like a really big thing when they're, Excited to have a little bit of time for them to focus away from a distraction. But, you know, that's only putting a Band Aid on it.
[00:18:50] It doesn't really help. But I try to really impact that. Sorry. 
[00:18:54] Carolyn Dolby: What I love is what I'm hearing is a lot of advocacy of our profession. And I like, I like the the words you're using with educational impact and or academic impact either way. And then, yes, it would be, I know I was a teacher before I became a speech path.
[00:19:12] So, yeah, of course, it's fun. It's nice to have a little breather, but. Is that really? Well, we're not here for the teacher. We're here for the student, you know, and I mean, so I get it that the teacher might be like, no, I'd rather you take him out. But you're you're saying, but that's not what we're here for.
[00:19:29] We're here for him to stay and he's not accessing his academics. If I'm taking him out. 
[00:19:37] Right? 
[00:19:38] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a big thing too that a lot of people don't think about when you're collaborating with the teachers is that you also should collaborate with like the paraeducators because they can play such a big role in like helping you.
[00:19:54] Connect with students helping support those students. You know, making sure that you're connecting with the whole school staff in the classroom include like, and including them in those conversations can be really helpful to start just because a lot of the time the para educators are who is the parent.
[00:20:12] Supporting your student when they're getting distracted, getting frustrated, having trouble explaining any something, they're usually the ones that are navigating that the teacher is leading a whole group, like a whole group, like lesson. So, that's also a really big thing. I like to emphasize that to include those paraprofessionals, those para educators there.
[00:20:34] They're very vital. 
[00:20:36] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely, right? Because yeah, us coming in isn't a break for. Anybody it's actually we're, we're going into enhance what they're doing. We're not here to, to give them a break. Yeah, yeah. And I do know that working with those para educators, the ones that I work with, they're amazing.
[00:20:56] They know those students, and I rely on them a lot to give me the information I need. And they, you know, I guess when, you know, When you feel the ownership, you just get the fidelity of the application of what you're asking them to do. Yeah, that's wonderful. Oh, right. So we've got teachers on board because you are, we've advocated for our profession, told them what we're here to do and why we're doing it.
[00:21:23] We've got our para educators on board. What, where do we go now? 
[00:21:29] Tiffany Pierangelo: So, if they're on board with us coming in, we want to make sure that. We are trying to figure out the best way to support these kids. A lot of that is understanding their Needs so you want to impact the disorder the goals that you're working on so a lot of times I try and think about making sure what supports i'm giving what supports I don't want to give Uh with those With those students.
[00:21:54] So like, and when I'm educating the classroom, so I always try not to provide really specific terms for every component. We get in, like, kind of a rhythm of using, like, aided language simulation and alveolar Ridge and like milieu therapy. And that can be really overwhelming when you're starting off.
[00:22:10] It's great to build that in and kind of get them to understand a little more and peppering it and but giving them additional . Meaning so saying like, Oh, aided language simulation, but it's also called modeling or alveolar Ridge or like that little bump behind your teeth or same like milieu therapy.
[00:22:28] So we're going to structure the environment. We're going to collaborate. We're going to make sure we're giving feedback, all those things. Let labeling exactly what it is, giving them that overarching label is great, but they're, they're not going to take that away and know exactly how to use it. But if you're explaining it in a little bit more of layman's terms, it can be A lot more helpful for them to like apply that.
[00:22:51] When they're working with the student. I also like to provide lots of handouts. I do that a ton with stuttering. I do lots of handouts for stuttering and I also provide visuals for articulation support for my students as well. A lot of them are like mouth cues or like different prompts that we use.
[00:23:08] Like, if I have a student with a list, I'll talk like, especially a lateralist, but I talk about like a flat, a flat tire sound and like. That or the T to S transition. We'll talk about that. And I try to give them cues on that so that they know how to help that student. I also try and connect the Disorder to what the teacher sees during the day.
[00:23:27] So, instead of saying like, oh this student is able to answer. They're having a lot of trouble answering why questions. I may be like, oh, well, they can't explain what happened at recess because they don't. They have a lot of trouble answering why questions in general. So, you know, if they're upset after recess, it's really hard when you ask them, like, Why are you upset?
[00:23:49] Like, maybe unpack that and try and give them support. Like, did something happen at recess? Ask more open ended questions to try and, like, pare back and help them navigate those discussions better. So, I try and apply it to what they have, what they see during the day or things that I know. are very noticeable that the student does during the day to help them apply how this can be really helpful for those teachers and also how they can use it intermittently instead of just when I'm there.
[00:24:18] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. You're, you're not only a great model for the student getting with your target, but you're modeling for the, the supports, the teacher and the support staff so that It will continue. Hopefully when they understand the why we're doing something, you know, then I think they're going to be like, yeah, absolutely.
[00:24:39] I think you would see a lot more support and carry over. I, I'm, I'm, I'm starting to say more positive outcomes when they're getting the same support throughout the day. Not just that 30 minutes. little segment with you. Yeah. 
[00:24:53] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. 
[00:24:54] And giving them those questions is like, how do you, that's why I always say with AUC, I'm like, build it into routines.
[00:24:58] It's easier with routines. You do them every day. Like, so that's the same thing with those students, right? You, if you build them into like, Oh, this is what happens at school that you see, like at least a few times a week, you can apply it then that's giving them those tools. I'm like, Oh, I can apply this then I'll just use that then.
[00:25:15] And then eventually hopefully gets built into more throughout the day, but you know, to start, it's a really good place to go because it can be really overwhelming because we know teachers have a lot to do. They have a lot on their plate. 
[00:25:26] Carolyn Dolby: They do. And so, how do you. Because teachers really, I mean, they really, they are shouldering huge responsibilities.
[00:25:34] How do you go about establishing communication with teachers about the student's progress or? 
[00:25:39] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, there's lots of different systems that I've used. I like to, I do, I've done email check ins with teachers. It depends on how often I'm at a site. So I had one year where I was assigned to the site one day a week, and that can be really challenging to like see all your students.
[00:25:55] assess all the students, screen any students, then like go see the teachers, even if your caseload's a little smaller in that case, it still is a lot to do in one day. So, I, I've done email check ins and sometimes I just like schedule them in advance on Outlook where I'm like, okay, I know I need a check in at this day.
[00:26:10] And I just like have it scheduled because I'll forget later. And then I'm like, Oh, it popped in my inbox. So that's nice. But also you can do like a morning coffee hour. I usually like will leave my door open and let them come in to my room whenever, but like, if you're new to a site, maybe like establishing that with some of your teachers and say, Oh, I'm going to have a coffee hour on this day.
[00:26:32] Like if you want to come in we can have coffee together and just talk about it. You can do open door office hours. I schedule discussions with my teachers a lot of the time. Cause usually it's something that comes up. randomly during like a support session. I'm like, Oh, okay. Like this happened and it was a little weirder.
[00:26:51] This happened and it was really great. And usually I'll pop in and or like when I'm leaving, I'll be like, Can I come back at another time to talk to you? And then they just tell me when to come in and I'll, I'll pop in and talk to them then. But you can also do like written communication. So you can have like a communication binder.
[00:27:06] We use that all the time with like parents. So we can use it with teachers too. So like having a little communication binder before you leave, jot down what you need to say. And you don't have to worry about coming back and the teacher has everything down and they have a space that they can write down any questions they have.
[00:27:21] You can also use that and do a goal tracker within the classroom that you and the teacher could record data in which could really help as well. It'll help with your notes, too, if you're like, oh, I forgot a note. I can like run and do that really quick. I forgot to grab my data, right? I can't remember.
[00:27:37] Carolyn Dolby: That's great. Those are great tips. Thank you so much for sharing. I love it. Where do we want to go next? 
[00:27:45] Tiffany Pierangelo: Well, I think a big thing that I always try to emphasize is like, you want to, I always say like, you know, you want to build rapport with your students, you want to build rapport with your teachers and your school site.
[00:27:55] When I got to my school site, I've been at the same school since I started with LAUSD. When I got there they really were not super there. They were very strict on like, Hey, this is the time you need to see him. Or sometimes I got like, well, speech doesn't do much and I'm like, okay, that's, that's fine.
[00:28:16] Like we're, we're going to navigate this. I love my school. I have a great, there's a great staff. My teachers are so great about advocating for their students and they really try to make sure that we're providing the least academic impact. So they, a big thing was like learning how to establish rapport with them.
[00:28:37] So building a relationship when I had the teachers who were like, I've been doing this for so long. And like, I disagree with it. I'm like, okay, like, so what do you do? I try to like unpack like, What's going on with that? Like, what, what is your interpretation? Then if you disagree with it, like, what are you seeing that I'm not seeing?
[00:28:53] Or what is, what in your experience has happened? Have you tried these different things? Cause sometimes it just comes from like them not being educated on things that we are up to date on, but maybe they weren't educated about you Bypass providers, or maybe their school is uncovered and they did not like have anyone for a while and yeah, they need a bit more of a reeducation and sometimes it's also just they could be like super overwhelmed when you come in and, and they could be just like, they have bad days too and just be like, okay, they just need a day.
[00:29:26] I give them a day. Also, teachers are particular too, like they, they don't like schedule changes sometimes. Sometimes they're like, do whatever, but sometimes they, they really don't like schedule changes. So like making sure that you try to be really cognizant of that. I know that I tried to do that.
[00:29:43] And then like, eventually I'm a little bit more relaxed now that I've been there for a while. And the teachers are more flexible with me because I was really good about it to start with like, okay, I need to change the schedule today. I have an IEP, like. You know, is there a time I can come in or do you want me to alter, alter the day?
[00:30:00] Or is there something I can do to make this easier on you? And I did that for like a couple of years and now, now it's a little bit easier where I can just be like, okay, I can like come in now. I guess it's okay. But it took, it took a little bit. So sometimes just like making sure we're establishing that trust and rapport that we always emphasize on our students.
[00:30:16] With those teachers as well, because you know, having that relationship with them can really help make your job easier, make the students day easier, make every aspect easier. So that's a big thing. I always emphasize like you want to establish rapport. We always say it with kids. We want to do it with our team members too.
[00:30:35] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. Yeah, that's insightful. And also for, you know, there's always that teacher that says he hasn't been seen in speech or he's never gone to speech. And then you're, but if you're in the classroom, I'm here. Of course I've been. You know, that kind of takes away that because I know that that's been that's been brought up with other SLP saying, come on now.
[00:30:58] But yeah, I think start building, building relationships is kind of our jam as speech pathologists. We're communicators. And just communicating, with the teachers as we would. I love how you say we we set up the expectations and the report with the students. Why wouldn't we do that with the teachers?
[00:31:16] I mean, it just makes sense and you're right. Sometimes when we front end, you know, front load, I guess it's what it's called. Sorry, front end front load. Maybe with doing like you said, if you're new to the campus or you're a new SLP, SLP full stop starting slow and kind of, you know, Finding your, your position in the school rather than going full, you know, gangbusters and saying, this is how I'm going to do it, but kind of listening to your teachers and, and, you know, influence the teachers by saying the benefit of me coming in and what I will be doing.
[00:31:53] I not manipulate. I like the word influence. That to get us all on the same page. I like that. Do you want to get into maybe what about maybe some disagreements? If you have a teacher that kind of disagrees with what you're doing. 
[00:32:10] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. 
[00:32:11] So the big thing I always look at is again, like kind of what I said figuring out the whys.
[00:32:16] So like, What is their reason for being for disagreeing on this? Like, do they have past experience with an SLP on a personal level that like maybe it was their child's SLP or a niece or nephew or like their parents SLP that they didn't agree with maybe a similar therapy technique that I'm using and they didn't feel like it was effective.
[00:32:41] Like we, we don't always know why they are saying no. So I always want to try and Look at those components. And then if they continue to say no, usually I like to make sure I'm providing lots of data and handouts. I also provide a lot of EBP. Like, I've, I've been known to have like a question and be like, Oh, I have a research article.
[00:33:04] Here's the summary. But like, also, here it is, if you want to read it, like, it's, it's right there. And it's cited and it's peer reviewed and it's not biased from me. So you, you can read that. So I, I also try to make sure I'm providing ABP for them and resources that are outside of just like, what I'm saying, because Especially in the world today, we're like, you know, we have Instagram influencers saying all these things that could or could not be true.
[00:33:33] And we have blogs that are all over the place that like, some of them site research, some of them don't. And it can be the same thing with those parents or YouTube too. YouTube can be really tough. So, or those teachers. So you want to make sure that you're you're providing those resources because there is, there are so many people who will say like, I'm an expert on this.
[00:33:55] And yet, you'll look at it, and if you are an expert in that area, or if you are a speech pathologist that has a really great knowledge and background on EVP, like hopefully all of us are then you're like, are you sure? Is that, is that actually the correct way that we should be doing things at this time, or has there been more recent data?
[00:34:15] And maybe you aren't aware of that recent data, so it's always good to investigate, because maybe it's something that you weren't aware of that. They were informed on but most of the time I always just try and start providing rationale for all my actions. So that they know why I'm doing things, but I also want to know why they're disagreeing so that I can help them understand why I'm doing things or why I'm recommending this or work with them on a, maybe something that would be more more palatable for them to start and build them up.
[00:34:47] So like for AEC, if they're really frustrated with Like grid size is obviously like a huge debate with teachers. They, they get really overwhelmed by a big size of a communication board. So maybe I'm like, okay, we're going to like hide a few icons if your students are overwhelmed, but if you're overwhelmed, then you can practice hiding a few icons on the one on your desk.
[00:35:07] And we'll leave the one up for the students. And we provide like, just kind of, you know, bite sized, you know, advice to help them modify the content so that it's easier for them to unpack if they are, if they continue to be frustrated. So it can, it really does depend on the teacher and the, the student and the reason that they're frustrated and they're disagreeing with you because it could also just be, I don't want you in my classroom.
[00:35:33] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, right. And I love that. Yeah, I like your bite sized kind of spoon feed little bites until they until it becomes palatable. Maybe you need to try it a few times before you decide you don't like it. 
[00:35:47] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I. 
[00:35:52] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, sorry, go ahead. 
[00:35:54] Tiffany Pierangelo: No, I just I know it can be really overwhelming because like I know.
[00:35:59] Like, I, I have areas in speech that I'm not an expert on and that I'm not, I don't treat super often. And usually when I get one of those students, I'm like, okay, well, I need to set aside time to like, double check my EVP, double check that I, I'm following the most recent, like, Therapy recommendations like stuttering for when I'm, I try really hard to access resources and be really careful about how I'm treating it so that I'm appropriately supporting my students.
[00:36:27] Cause it's not my area of expertise, but people come to me for AAC for that. So it's, it's, you know, it's, I understand that it can be overwhelming, but that's why, you know, you, you want to give up a little bit of bite sized advice, it can be helpful for them to understand it a little better. 
[00:36:42] Carolyn Dolby: Fantastic.
[00:36:45] Okay what haven't we touched on? I think I loved we've gone through the types of service delivery from I tried to write them down. So I'd remember them all. But did there were the 6 of them. You know, and I know that we're all doing. We're doing them, but we didn't, you know, give us a credit that we're actually doing, you know, Oh, I'm actually doing the zones.
[00:37:06] I might, you know, I'm doing supportive co teaching. I love that giving us and for those of us that maybe some of this is new. Oh, that's a great idea or a new way of looking at a push in model. If you haven't done the centers or stations. That is fun. I love that. 
[00:37:23] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, it's also a great tool to use when a teacher isn't agreeing with you about coming into the classroom.
[00:37:29] You can say like, I have six different ways I can't come in. Let's talk about them and we can decide as a team which one you think best fits your classroom. 
[00:37:39] Carolyn Dolby: Giving her the choice. So she, she, or he, I'm not going to, they giving them the, the power, I guess, or the choice gives it back to them. So they feel like, you know, cause I mean, that's their classroom.
[00:37:52] They have a lot of ownership and that's a way of honoring, Hey, yes, I know I'm coming into your space. So tell me how you'd like me to come. I'm, I'm coming into your space. So tell me how you'd like me to come into your space. Yes, this is happening. It is.
[00:38:09] Buckle up, ladies. Here we go. But, but you can, yeah, but giving, I know I'm being tongue in cheeky, but but just giving them that little bit really can kind of deescalate the fear of, cause I don't know what you're going to be doing. And then really explaining how, how, and what you'll be doing again, that pre teach that teachers Do with every subject.
[00:38:34] When they have a new subject coming in, they're pre-teaching, you know, to their students. We're kind of doing the same model actually for them, so, yeah. I love that. Yeah. 
[00:38:46] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. And, and it also gives them some, like say in power, if you're giving them options on like, I can come in during a lesson, what, like, what subject do you want me to come in on?
[00:38:56] And being flexible on their, on their term can really. Make them feel more open to you coming in because you're saying like, you know, I'm, I'm going to come in, but I want you to feel comfortable with it. And like, is there a time or a model that will make you feel a little bit more empowered and on board with this as a team member?
[00:39:16] Cause you're equal parts of the team. It's not that you're taking over their classroom. You are co teaching, you are doing integrated therapy support. You're not, you're not there to fill their shoes. You're there to help build up their toolbox. 
[00:39:30] Carolyn Dolby: That's wonderful. That's a great. Yeah, we're not. I love that.
[00:39:34] You know, there was another advantage you said earlier today and I, and I kind of wanted to revisit it because when you were talking about, especially when you're going into a classroom, maybe in early education or kind of one of the, you know, the young grades and you're getting to work with the whole class because I know a lot of states were not, you know, Permitted to do a screening.
[00:39:58] Some states are, I think, but I know in mine, we are not. But if you are doing a classroom push in a classroom integrated service delivery model you do, you know, just by default, you're going to be working with all sorts of children and being able to, right. I'm not going to use the word screen, but just sort of be prepared and see what is going on in the classroom.
[00:40:21] But then what I loved is when you were talking about you could, the, the modeling and the supports that you're giving to the students that are identified is just good modeling and supports for all the students.
[00:40:34] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yep. 
[00:40:36] Yeah. It's really nice 
[00:40:37] because with this screening or like my state allows screenings.
[00:40:41] Okay, but so if we're doing screenings for me, it helps identify students more accurately, and it also helps decrease how many screenings I'm doing because sometimes I'll come in and I'll get like, you know, 15 screening requests the first month of school. And like, that's a lot of work. That's a full day.
[00:41:00] Like that is a full day. But if you're already screening, most of the time they come from the little ones classroom. Right. So if you're already doing the integrated support model, then you are already seeing those students. And so you can be like, Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna give them, you know, the integrated support we're already providing.
[00:41:20] And, you know, let's watch and we'll see how they're doing in like a couple months when they're a little more used to school. Or maybe you're like, Oh, no, that one really does need some, some gridded service. And we need to make sure we're tracking everything and they're going to be seeing someone for a bit.
[00:41:35] Or maybe it's like, they're, they're fine. They're just, they're doing things that kids do and maybe you haven't seen it as much, but it's okay that you don't. That they're not able to pronounce the R sound when they're four. Like, it's all right. 
[00:41:48] Carolyn Dolby: Right. And I like that because our littles that are coming in, you know, they haven't been in the school setting and we don't know where they are coming from.
[00:41:58] If they weren't in daycare or they weren't, you know, if they were home alone with, you know, with grandma. Is a different scenario than maybe they're coming from a educational based preschool. They're coming from different walks of life and right. Giving them sometimes giving them the gift of time to what the expectations for school before we, cause we don't want to over identify, you know?
[00:42:27] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. And the other thing in my school district, we have a lot of like dual language learners. So, a lot of our students, their primary language isn't English. So sometimes it's really overwhelming when they come into school and they're, Bombarded by English when they've only heard Spanish at home, or they've only heard Vietnamese or something like that.
[00:42:46] So we have a pretty diverse range of students that come into our schools. So it's also good to like, know that, or they're just hard to understand because they have dialectal differences and explaining that to the teacher, because you're able to see that a little bit more closely. So it, it can be really helpful in that benefit in that way as well, rather than just the benefit for your student.
[00:43:07] It can, That class as a whole and there are other classrooms that helps as well if they have students who are challenged with like focus, you can providing those visual aids are helpful for most students, not just our our students that we see or that have means visual aids are great for everyone. 
[00:43:23] Carolyn Dolby: Right.
[00:43:24] You know, we always say, you know, yes, speech would benefit everyone. Everyone would benefit from speech. That's great. But, you know, we have to be servicing just the ones that require the speech services. However, it's good teachings, good teaching, good strategies are good strategies and being able to have that carry over into the classroom for those, those students that are struggling, but aren't struggling enough that they need you know, individualized supports.
[00:43:52] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, yeah, it's really important to be able to discern that. And then also you showing that in the classroom will help the teachers be able to understand why or why not you're recommending services for this student versus that student. It can really help them understand it. So when you go into the IEPs they're more on board with what you're recommending, or in the cases of your students as well, you're more aligned on what goals are important.
[00:44:14] So it also helps with IEPs a lot because you already have that baseline communication with teachers rather than Going into an IEP where it can be combative with other professionals I know that some people face that in their IEPs. I've been very fortunate and haven't but I, I also spent a lot of time building rapport with my teachers and getting them.
[00:44:35] Communicate with me and talk to me if they have concerns or if they have worries or, or, like, even something as simple as, like, if they have a screening request that they can get done, talking to them about why it's not done a week before the end of the school year, when they submitted it on the Monday before we're gone.
[00:44:52] Carolyn Dolby: Right, and I think it would, another benefit, it would probably reduce the amount of screenings because The teachers are seeing you, you're there, you're talking to them about, they're seeing what you're doing. And then you're able to educate them on why this is appropriate behavior or appropriate presenting whatever they're doing is actually age appropriate or developmentally appropriate at the time.
[00:45:19] I think that's powerful for teachers to really understand because I, I think sometimes when they just think, oh, the kids are out of my classroom, I'm going to start sending all of them to speech. So then they will all leave the classroom when they don't really know what speech is and just, I hate the term speech only.
[00:45:38] That's not really, I hate that because that's not what we do. Yeah, I mean, yeah. We do so much more than, you know, speech, sound. And then, yeah, sorry, that was a little bit of a, a platform I just jumped on. Sorry about that. , . 
[00:45:54] Tiffany Pierangelo: No, it's okay. I, I feel like a lot of teachers aren't like, aware of those things.
[00:45:57] Like I remember my first student that I had fluency concerns. Like the teacher was like, oh, I didn't even know you did this. And I was like. Yeah, it's in our scope. Like we should this because she was like, Oh, it's not a big deal. They just they just, you know, I noticed them stuttering. The parent was more concerned than I am.
[00:46:17] And I was like, Okay, well, you know, let's let me pop in. Let's let's hang out. That student in particular needed support. But The discussion with the teacher was I didn't know that you even did that and I was like 
[00:46:32] Carolyn Dolby: there's no I that just remind me of your little coffee talks. Come in. Let's just talk about it.
[00:46:39] I love that. I love that. Yeah, the less formal you make it the better I feel like for teachers because it already can be. And depending on your school culture, obviously, every school is different. But it can be really formal at different school sites, and they expect a very I've been in schools where it can be almost like an uptight environment.
[00:46:59] Tiffany Pierangelo: So trying to get it to be more of a conversation rather than a, interview or interrogation or anything like that. You know what I mean? Like we want to feel like it's a conversation and you're approachable and they're ready to talk to you rather than it being something that is kind of scary for them to contact you about or to collaborate with you.
[00:47:20] It's something that's like another thing on their to do list that they don't want to deal with. Like, you never want to be that, that source of frustration for a teacher because it just makes your life More challenging and it's harder for your kids, your students, like if you're that teacher doesn't want to like collaborate with you.
[00:47:35] It can be really challenging on the students because it's harder to navigate service delivery. It's harder to generalize the support. And the biggest thing is, I don't want to make my students life more challenging ever. Like, I want to make it easier and better for them. 
[00:47:48] Carolyn Dolby: Right? 
[00:47:49] We're 
[00:47:49] here to help not to hinder.
[00:47:51] We are supposed to be value add. Right. Yeah. I mean, and really, basically you're getting into advocating for students.
[00:48:01] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. 
[00:48:03] Yeah. We always, I always try and remember, especially when I was in, when I was newer, I, I haven't been practicing like a super, super long time. Like I've been practicing for this is my fourth, I mean like the middle of my fourth year.
[00:48:18] So I like, I've been working in the schools for. I want to say like 10 years, it's been a long time. But so it's, it's very it makes, it made me really nervous when I started to like advocate for students because, you know, you feel like you're newer and you're younger and you aren't prepared to go and talk to a teacher with 15 years of experience that is not on board of what you have to say.
[00:48:40] But, you know, at the end of the day, I'm not, I'm there to support my students and I need to advocate. In the best way possible to make sure that they're getting the support they need, and they're getting they're progressing towards their skills as quickly as we can get them to and make sure that we're not impacting their academics as well.
[00:48:59] Because like, that's, that's what I'm here for. I'm, I'm here to advocate, make sure that they're okay. So it's, it's important. It's such a big, important part of our job, especially when you're working as a multidisciplinary team. 
[00:49:12] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely. I, when you go back, I think the big, the buzzword right now is Educational impact, those impact statements.
[00:49:20] And you touched on that for us and I have, I really appreciate that. And that when we think about impact, we want to be a positive impact rather than a negative impact, you know, so we're wanting, 
[00:49:35] Tiffany Pierangelo: yeah. Yeah, you, I mean, if we're, if we're taking them out all the time, 90 minutes a week or 60 minutes a week, whatever it is.
[00:49:45] They're still missing class. So the less that we can create that impact, the better for those students because it's just so important that they receive that support. And they receive it in a way that they're able to still attend their classroom sessions and attend their lessons. And I know that there are like parents who demand like individualized services or small group based therapy.
[00:50:07] And those are always like discussions that you want to navigate, but there are so many Research articles and just like evidence that you can cite that shows that this is like the most beneficial way to treat the students. And I always try and go back to that when I talk to parents, because sometimes it's just they're, they're trying to advocate for their kids for the best way that they know how.
[00:50:27] So, yeah. You know, if you're providing tools showing that you are too, sometimes that can really help. 
[00:50:33] Carolyn Dolby: Right, rather than getting mad that the parent is asking for individual session, or, I know, I want them to be pulled out. Because maybe in their mind, they think, because that's what they, maybe they had some private therapy, and that's what they're used to, and that's what they want to have in the schools.
[00:50:49] But again, part of our job is to educate. Not only our staff and the students, but also the parents to educate them. What, what really is the role of a school based speech pathologist? Right. And it, and it is to, is. Access education, it's for the student to be accessing their education. So, you know, not, I mean, I do agree.
[00:51:12] Some students do need and at some point might need that pull out model or that individual to work on a skill or what have you. But the expectation is to be in school to be in their classroom to be with their peers. To be educated and we're here to support that for the for them to be accessing their education.
[00:51:33] I think that's important for parents to when they understand the difference. And I, I don't like it. I'm not saying that we're, you know, that we're, we're different than any other setting. No, we have the same credentials. We have the same abilities and everything, but our goal is slightly different. 
[00:51:52] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, I think it's also there's different like benefits to each thing.
[00:51:55] I've worked in private practice before. And I think some, I always tell the parents like some really great things about the schools that it's a naturalistic environment. So it's a, it's easier for students to generalize the things that they're taught in their speech. Like sessions or when they're working with a speech pathologist.
[00:52:14] But also the other thing is like their peers are present. Like I've, I've worked in private practices where parents have requested group sessions and you just can't arrange it because schedules don't work. And so this is something that's available in the schools already, where you can provide that support while their peers are there.
[00:52:32] Which is helpful for those students to generalize, like if you're working on social skills, that can be really, really helpful to have that student be able to navigate a conversation and appropriately alter the topic if they need to, to something that's more engaging for them that's really empowering for them, it gets them excited to talk to other students, like, It can really help just either generalize those goals or get the student excited about those goals.
[00:52:56] And then that also helps them make friends. And everyone loves it when their students make friends, 
[00:53:01] Carolyn Dolby: right? 
[00:53:02] Tiffany Pierangelo: Or when their kids do. 
[00:53:03] Carolyn Dolby: I know I right. That really is so important, especially right with pragmatics are kids that are struggling with their social competence. Pulling them out and having them work with you is not authentic or natural.
[00:53:17] And creating a scenario is not the same as being in the scenario and having to navigate a real life scenario. Rather than trying to, you know, okay, let's imagine that you are blah, blah, blah, instead of, okay, we're in the classroom. This just happened. What should we do? But what do we have? What should we say?
[00:53:42] Is that a think it? Or is that a say it? 
[00:53:46] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah, and it also helps the students who go into like any sort of crisis or get really frustrated and may have like any self interest behaviors or anything like that. Because if you're able to be in the classroom and support. When they're having a frustrating moment or something that could escalate, you, you can be there to provide those tools of like, okay, so do we need some alternate seating options?
[00:54:06] Do we need a second to have some sensory input? Do we just need a second in general? What, what can we do to like, Help us navigate that. So it, it can also provide that support where the teacher can see what's effective to help those students when they're getting having those frustrating moments.
[00:54:22] And it also helps that student learn that I can use these tools when I'm in class and it will help me attend my, my classroom lessons a little bit better because I'm able to access these independently. I know that Like for me, I, I really emphasize like alternate seating options because I'm like, sometimes they don't want to be right next to everyone.
[00:54:41] And it's a little bit overwhelming. So, like, having them have the option to like, like, I, I've had a student where I'm like, okay, you can, you have to have your hand on this table, but you can walk around this table. But like, you have to have your hand on the table, because otherwise he'd be all around the classroom.
[00:54:55] So I was like, okay, hand on the table, but you can walk around, or you can sit in this chair away from the students, or you can sit on the carpet with the students, whatever you want, but you've got to pick one of those. So giving them the autonomy to meet their needs, well, does help them. And that student now, like, I've had him for a few years, and now he's able to like, just sit in class.
[00:55:14] Like, he's fine. He does not, he does not need alternate seating. He does not need to stand. But like, when he was younger, it was, it was a huge challenge in the classroom. And it was a huge challenge anytime I came in, anytime I talked to the teacher. It was a big area of concern. And even though it's not speech skills, it does help with his attending to speech sessions and to his classroom sessions.
[00:55:34] And it's something that I knew how to navigate that I could help him with. 
[00:55:38] Carolyn Dolby: Wow, I love that. And I think, again, we're going back to giving everyone autonomy, giving everybody choices of for themselves and for children to know that there are choices when you're in that crisis or having whatever, it might not be a full crisis, but you're having a moment of frustration or just and you're, you feel out of control, giving them back some control to help them get through.
[00:56:05] Yeah. I like that. 
[00:56:08] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yeah. I'm all about them having autonomy and at least, at least a bit of control. I know, I know, like as a parent, I'm also like boundaries are great, but, but also I want to make sure that they have the ability to like express their opinions and have some control over their environment.
[00:56:24] And if they have something that's overwhelming, like we can make it easier for them, they can still access the content. Like that's the most accessible version of how we can help them. Attain their educational goals and their speech and language goals. 
[00:56:38] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. Because there's more, there's usually more than one way to get to where we need to go or do a particular activity.
[00:56:47] And and sometimes giving, giving, it's hard for speech pass. It's hard for teachers to give up some control. But I think it was important when you're saying, yes, we have boundaries, but within those boundaries, there are choices. And when you give choices that you are both willing to accept, you know, like, don't give a choice.
[00:57:06] That you're not okay with. Right? So, I love that you can walk around the table, put your hand on the table. I love that example or when you said give them three choices of seating. Do you want to sit? I can't remember what you said, but I think it was like, do you want to sit with your peers? You want to sit away from your peers?
[00:57:24] Do you want to sit in a different seat altogether? It gets them thinking, stop whatever's happening. Oh, wait, I've got choice. I mean, oh, what do I want? Yeah, I want to sit. On my peer that hat wasn't a choice, sir. 
[00:57:40] That wasn't a choice today. 
[00:57:42] Tiffany Pierangelo: Well, sometimes they do that anyway. And you're like, that's not, that's not our choice.
[00:57:48] Sometimes they just, they think a little bit more out of the box than you expect. 
[00:57:52] Carolyn Dolby: I know, right? It's because you're just like, wait a minute. Where did that come from? Yeah, I know. I think we could all write a book on things kids say and do. That's something new every day. Something's gonna happen.
[00:58:05] Tiffany Pierangelo: Yep. Yep.
[00:58:08] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, my gosh, Tiffany. I think we're getting close to the end of our time. I can't believe it. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you wanted to share with us? 
[00:58:17] Tiffany Pierangelo: I think we covered everything. I just really want to emphasize that we're, you know, it can be challenging to start like integrated classroom support, but like, you know, just remember that you're the best advocate for your students.
[00:58:28] There's lots of research behind it to support those, that level, that model of support. So you can make sure to cite those. I know that there's references in the podcast resource. So the references provided outline those so you can just hand them that sheet if you want. And but also just make sure that you're, you are feeling empowered to work with those teachers and make sure that you're making a system of support within your school.
[00:58:57] And, you know, laying some groundwork for that. And part of that is an integrated therapy model. Love it. I love it. I have learned so much from you today. I love this. Thank you, Tiffany, for joining us. I, I hope that you'll be willing to come back again. This has been so, insightful and I love it. I really I think you just shared I, I'm ready to go back and be like, Oh, I want to try this model.
[00:59:21] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. So, no, it's fantastic. I, I hate to say it, but it is time to go. Thank you so much, Tiffany. Thank you. All right. See you. Bye.
[00:59:34] Tiffany Pierangelo: Bye.
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[01:00:37] The code is SCHOOL20. That is S C H O O L 20. Hope to see you on our next episode. Also, please don't hesitate to tell us which topics you would like us to cover in future episodes. To get in touch, drop us a line in the comment section or send us a message on social media. Music.