School of Speech Ep 13
[00:00:00] Carolyn Dolby: Hello. Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Carolyn Dolby, and I am your SpeechTherapyPD podcast host for School of Speech. School of Speech is designed for the school based SLP to come together. We're going to start exploring current trends, share insights, and champion our expertise.
[00:00:25] Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. So excited today our episode is Navigating Diversity, the Culturally and Linguistically Diverse Student. And we are so excited to have Margaryta Kuzmin with us today and she's popping there.
[00:00:50] She is my friend. She is here to help us navigate our exploration of the unique needs and challenges faced by our culturally and linguistically diverse student population. As we dive into the world of advocacy oh, I just got lost where I'm doing that. As we dive into our deep look into how we can best serve our students that come from diverse backgrounds, we got Margaryta to help us with that.
[00:01:21] I'm going to go with some financial disclosures. I'm going to start with Margaryta. She's employed by the New York City Department of Education and she is receiving an honorarium from speechtherapypd. com for her participation in today's episode. Non dis non financial, she is an ASHA member and also the New York Speech and Hear wait, Speech and Language and Hearing Association as well.
[00:01:43] Nishla. For me I am salaried as a district at the district level dysphagia support speech pathologist. I am compensated for my graduate courses that I teach at the University of Houston. I consult with school districts across the nation, supporting their program development and staff training.
[00:02:03] And I also receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD. com for hosting School of Speech. Non financial for myself, I am a member of Texas Speech and Hearing, Feeding and Swallowing Task Force. I volunteer for Feeding Matters, and I'm also a member of ASHA's Special Interest Group's 13 Swallowing and Swallowing Disorders, as well as 16 School Based Issues.
[00:02:26] Now, without any further ado, let's welcome Margaryta Kuzmin. 
[00:02:32] Margaryta Kuzmin: Hi guys, I see so many responses, it's so nice to read what everyone posted, so I'm going over the chat as well. Amazing. so much for having me. I'm so excited. 
[00:02:43] Carolyn Dolby: We are so excited to have you. Margaryta is a bilingual pediatric speech language pathologist and a child educator who specializes in feeding and swallowing disorders as well as augmentative and alternative communication.
[00:02:57] With over 10 years experience, she has serviced hundreds of linguistically diverse, mild to severely delayed Excuse me. Delayed and medically fragile children with various socioeconomic statuses within early early intervention and school settings. Margaryta is also an author of a children's book titled Baby Zoo and has contributed to various publications and she has also received multiple awards throughout her career.
[00:03:26] Welcome Margaryta. How are you? I'm great. How are you? Fantastic. Fantastic. So glad to see you. And thank you so much for joining us today. We're so blessed to have you. I know we're gonna, I know we got a lot to talk about, so I think we should just jump right in. But if you don't mind starting off by walking us through the difference between sequential and simultaneous language learners, that might be a good place to start.
[00:03:54] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yeah, sure. So before I even start going there, I just want to make sure that everybody knows, obviously, I'm a bilingual speech language pathologist. I learned English when I was 13 years old when I came to the United States. So I will use myself as an example. I'm also a mom of two bilingual Children. So again, just to to see how fit in this is as I'm SLP working in the school, but also I myself as a bilingual learner and a mom of two kids.
[00:04:24] So going into the difference, and I'm sure those who had a little bit of education in that grad school and maybe some of them postgraduate coursework, the simultaneous Language learners are those who, usually we'll put those who learn two languages at the same time. Simultaneously. And usually we want to, when we consider that, we would say that they would get those two languages before age of three.
[00:04:49] Right? So, for example, for my kids, who have been born in the United States, but we have two languages that we use in a household, they would be considered simultaneous language learners. As of for myself, a person who learned one language in a different setting and then immigrated into the United States, I'm a sequential bilingual, so I had my skills in one language, and then I immigrated here and had to learn a new language, and So that is a sequential bilingual and so the only thing I want to make sure is that you guys know the little research inside is that simultaneous learners often develop both languages, as I said and usually one is not more dominant than the other.
[00:05:34] So that's like a balanced bilingual, but sometimes, for example, for my kids, as they're learning as they're going through school and getting a lot of that academic language, one, of course, language is more dominant, which is English for them. And then for sequential language learners they show that
[00:05:52] That learners initially experience a silent period, and this is important for us to know, is that there was a point in my life when I was in middle school where I just had to observe the language, right? So, obviously, if you would test me at that time, I would probably fail at every test that you would give me because I was just going through that process of just absorbing and learning a new language.
[00:06:15] So those are the two things I wanted for you to keep in mind. Yes, hopefully I use myself as a little example, so it's a little bit more clear, especially for those. 
[00:06:25] Carolyn Dolby: I love that, I knew you would be perfect for this episode. I knew it. I know this, you know, comes from the heart. Yeah. So let's get into talking about.
[00:06:36] I mean, I think you started a little bit with language development. Where do we want to go next? 
[00:06:43] Margaryta Kuzmin: Right. So I feel like the, the major part for us as SLPs working in the schools, right, is to really understand, well, how do we assess these kids as they become a part of our caseloads, right? So we have a lot of kids immigrating from different countries and I may not now speak that language, right?
[00:07:02] So actually when I did a little bit of research, I found out that only six percent of all SLPs in the United States have the bilingual extension. That's very little for the amount of kids that we get caseloads, right? And four percent of those six percent are the Spanish speaking bilingual SLPs, which is great that we have them, right?
[00:07:25] And usually in Spanish speaking kids are the majority of our case load as well. However, what about the rest of the kids who came from China, who came from other countries, right? So then what do we do with them? Like, how can we assess them and how can, the most important question I think is always to figure it out.
[00:07:45] Well, do they actually have a language delay, or they just learn English, right? So I think that's the big chunk of our issue that we're having within the schools to figure that out. Do we keep them in services or do we discharge them, right?
[00:08:04] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely. So tell us more about we started getting into the assessment and that's important to make sure that the difference between a difference and a disorder is so important.
[00:08:19] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yeah. So when you, when we look at idea, right, So it's important to really notice that assessments and other evaluation, and this is from ID, I'm reading verbatim materials used to assess a child, and I'm going to go to just skip your sections are provided and administered in a child's native language or other mode of communication in the form most likely to yield accurate information on what the child know and can academically, developmentally, and functionally Unless it is clearly not feasible to provide or administer, right?
[00:08:50] So here we really fall into that where it is by law that we need to provide someone if possible, of course, if it's feasible who speaks that childhood language. So the first and the most, I guess, ethically. Relevant and appropriate is to find an SLP or a provider that can help you to guide working with the show.
[00:09:15] And of course, in ideal world, it is Very not possible even in New York City and we have so many SOPs here with so many different languages and we still struggle to find those SOPs. So I can't only imagine this issue in other states and other little cities. So obviously this is our first step is to find pieces and you want.
[00:09:36] In our profession is able to help us out even if it's possibly a zoom call and you might have some information any of those things would be great now when that's not possible. What do we do? So, Yeah, so I actually went on asha website and and wanted to find out like what have asha been doing How asha has been helping us out and they created a whole Huge section on how to go about assessing bilingual children as a monolingual SLP regarding all languages.
[00:10:07] And I thought, Oh my God, like I have to, I have to use this. I have to make sure you guys know it's available. Maybe some of you know that it's available for those who may not know, please go on ASHA and find it and they can guide you step by step on what you should be doing. And some of the things that they talked about is, of course, administering a very detailed, in depth interview with a parent.
[00:10:29] Well, how are we going to do that? It would be great if it would be a parent who speaks English, right? Possibly that was a transfer, maybe they've been in the country for a few years. Maybe the parent is able to answer your questions. What happens if the parent also doesn't speak that language, right?
[00:10:44] If you're doesn't speak English? So, so the use of interpreter is highly recommended. And As we are trying to solve an issue, a new issue arises, right? Where to find an interpreter. So that's something again, I guess it's based on district and school wide. I know that we have our interpreter services that are available to us.
[00:11:08] So there's a phone number that we can call and a person on another line. Can translate to our parents. So that's a great tool that I have in my school for those kids who are whose language I do not speak. So I use that as one of my tools. I search for anyone in the school that can possibly be the translator.
[00:11:30] But I also understand that's one of the roadblocks in other schools is to find that so it's kind of like we're trying to give the tools on how to tackle the issue, but sometimes we just keep on getting more issues by solving this it's a kind of multi right, like the bilingualism, right.
[00:11:48] Carolyn Dolby: With what you said at the very beginning when you said, okay, so ASHA guides us by stating that. Best practice would be providing that assessment with a native speaker of that language. Okay, that, that is all fine and good for maybe here in Texas Spanish. But there's a lot of different Spanish dialects.
[00:12:16] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yes. 
[00:12:17] Carolyn Dolby: No. So even, even saying 
[00:12:20] Margaryta Kuzmin: within, within one category of language, that could be the dialects, right? Same thing as Chinese, you could write, there's Mandarin, there's other Cantonese. Exactly. So, yeah, within that, right? So, so it's a big challenge and I understand that and that's why I tried to really prepare this for you to actually give you tools that you can use versus constantly give you something back.
[00:12:44] It's another robot. And you know what? At the end of the day when I was preparing for this, podcast slash course, We we have come definitely there's more research out there There's more support, but I just feel like we still haven't really moved much in the area of bilingualism and there's just it's Probably because it's just so, there's just so many factors that is involved that we cannot put people in the box and say like, this is the way that you do it because everybody comes from such a different environment and experiences and socio economic statuses and you have to mix all of that into one component which is, you can only do it by individual basis, and that's what it comes to at the end.
[00:13:27] So I understand about the translation. So you're gonna do your best. You're gonna try to see if there's anyone in the school that may speak that language. And you're gonna do your best to to ask a parent about Different things that they may think the child may struggle at home, right? And then we would think about, well, what kind of question would I ask mom?
[00:13:48] Like, what's important questions? So, Dr. Crowley, who is she runs a leaders project at Teachers College, Columbia University. I actually, that's the, that's the, That's where I got my bilingual extension is the foster quality and she is such a pioneer in this field and She on her website the leaders project you guys can search it up.
[00:14:10] She came up with eight the most important questions that you must ask at the end which will help you, right, which will help you and guide you on, on figuring out if this is a language delay or it's a language disorder, even if you are monolingual. Okay, and I'm not going to read through all the questions, but some of the things, for example, which were when I was studying with her sometimes I didn't think that that's the question that I would want to ask. For example, parents highest level of education. And initially I was like, why does that matter, right? Because actually there's a strong indicator and there's research on likely likely academic achievement and standardized performance based on socioeconomic status. So. What what we what we see is that exposure to books, for example, over different environments within the home can can give us an indicator.
[00:15:10] This might be just the exposure issue. It's not a language delay. So the child may still appear that he, for example, May look delay or may appear delay or all it is is just the exposure, right? So we have to put that into account that maybe the child just didn't have access to books or maybe the parents haven't read to the child so that's an important question another thing is Significant changes in the family structure.
[00:15:39] And I think this is so important because when I came here at 13 years old and I, I went to middle school, right? Everything was so new to me. The culture, everything is different. The way that students were dressed was not what I had in my suitcase. So obviously that was a, a point in my life where I, where I was, felt a little lost and, felt like I didn't fit in. So obviously you kind of go like inward, right? You just kind of shut down. You feel afraid to speak up even with a few words that you may possibly learned already because you feel ashamed on using that language, right? So, But also looking into any divorces or living in the shelter and things like this can significant impact a child's, you know, a child's performance on those tests that you possibly present.
[00:16:32] So, so there's eight of them. Please find them. It's going to be a nice guide to you. 
[00:16:37] Carolyn Dolby: Margaryta, sorry, I'm going to stop you a second. Could you give us that reference? 
[00:16:43] Margaryta Kuzmin: It's called Leader's Project. 
[00:16:45] Carolyn Dolby: Leader's project?
[00:16:46] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yeah, Leader's. Project and it's by Dr. Crowley. It's spelled C R O W L E Y and she's done a lot of work.
[00:16:57] It's actually i'm also going to reference her on her on that website The windows project website you can use it's called slam cards It's basic for pictures, which she uses to get a sample, a language sample, and then you can also use it as to teach test, teach, retest. So where you basically create a story based on the picture.
[00:17:20] So it's already there. The picture's already there. The question's already there. So that's one of the resources that you can use. Tomorrow that's available for free. And then I know that she has some videos that are for free, so maybe you need to pay for. But I know a lot of it a lot of stuff is available for free as a resource.
[00:17:37] So make sure you check that out. Incredible work. 
[00:17:39] Carolyn Dolby: I put that in the website for Leaders Project. And you called those SLAM cards? 
[00:17:45] Margaryta Kuzmin: S L A M. And I'm sure there's time for something. I just can't recall it right now. I think it's a sample language, something. But yeah, I used those before and I got a language sample.
[00:17:56] Thank you. Yeah. So they're great. And I think Dr. Crowley actually spoke at ASHA. Past November about the slam cards. So, I know that following her, you always get like the best resources and the newest research. So, she's a big adequate in New York specifically. So that's that. And then also on the same leaders project page there are questions for the teacher to ask because as we ask our questions And we interviewed the parents.
[00:18:26] We got the interpreter, for example, and we got our questions answered. We can also, you know, interview a teacher, what the teacher has been noticing. And there are questions that you can ask the teacher. So those are questions available as well. 
[00:18:41] Carolyn Dolby: All right. Yeah, if I can stop you again, sorry, but Jennifer R.
[00:18:44] Thanks. This is a great question. You, you indicated that ASHA has some guidelines on okay. Does Jennifer was asking, does ASHA have a directory of bilingual SLPs that school SLPs could use, even a Verzoom, to help with assessments? Do you know if that was part of that? 
[00:19:00] Margaryta Kuzmin: I don't know if, that exists. 
[00:19:02] Carolyn Dolby: I, if it doesn't, it would be great if they did, if they would.
[00:19:07] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yeah, you could definitely use me as a resource in regards to like, The research and some laws that require, let's see, like, if you don't have an interpreter and you want to address this with an administration, there are definitely laws that you can provide and some research saying how beneficial that would be.
[00:19:23] So you have me as a resource that's one place, right? That would be great if ASHA would have that. I haven't heard of it but that would be a great tool. A great thing to have where, you know, you can have access to some of the lingual SLPs across the country, you know, but I don't think, I don't think such a thing exists.
[00:19:41] Maybe I should start on that. 
[00:19:42] Carolyn Dolby: Hold on, I messed up. There it is. I thought I was doing it to everyone. I just gave my chat just to Margaryta, who did not meet the reference, so it should now go all to you. Go out to everybody leadersproject. com and I added the slam cards. So I think everybody is really interested in that.
[00:19:59] Margaryta Kuzmin: So yeah, and then also understanding that. So also when we're learning English, when we're learning, right, for our sakes, we are talking about English, learning English, right. When we're learning a second language, there are two types of languages. The first one is the basic interpersonal communications skills.
[00:20:15] Those are like, hi, how are you? I'm good. I ate an apple, right? Those basic everyday conversations. What did you call this? Interpersonal? It's called BICS. B I C S basic personal communication skills that those skills typically take from two to three years to acquire. And I remember myself and I remember I felt confidently having like a normal conversation at about a year and a half of being in the United States.
[00:20:49] So those were my fix. And then we have cognitive academic language proficiency, C A L P. And that's the academic language. The academic language that's the language of the school, right? The different vocabulary that, you know, revolves around school based stuff, right? When we learn about science, that would be like our Saturn and condensation and words like that, right?
[00:21:15] And everything that has to do with that. So those, that, that academic language can take from five to seven years to We cannot have someone in services for five to seven years because we think they're delayed, but all they are is just learning English, right? I think that's the biggest part. We don't want to over diagnose our kids with a language display when they're just learning English.
[00:21:39] At the same time, I want to advocate for my kids who are have diagnosis or who are definitely struggling and, you know, Obviously, for those kids, I want to make sure that they do get the services that they deserve. So it's, you know, it's definitely, it's it's tough to be an SLP specialist. A monolingual, I can only imagine how hard it could be.
[00:22:01] But again, we are here to give you some tools. So I want to address you to this amazing article that I found, and it's a recent article, 2022. And I just found it so useful and I think it's going to be useful for so many SLPs. It truly guides you through. The laws, but also the different trends and research that has been done up until that point.
[00:22:27] And I think it's so important that it's put everything together in one article. So it's called Assessing Language Skills in Bilingual Children, Current Trends in Research and Practice. And it's by Max Freeman and Scott Schroeder. It's spelled S C H R O E D E R, and the article is 2022. It's available for everyone because I was just able to find it on Google.
[00:22:57] And it really breaks down all the issues that we're having in the schools, all the issues that monolinguals are having in the schools. It talks about the insufficient grad school grad preparedness for serving. Children who are bilingual. It talks about different ways to approach assessing, treating, and then progress monitoring those kids.
[00:23:20] So I, I really, really encourage you guys to get a hold of that article. It, it's nicely written. It's like, everything is like, Just puts in a nice nice order. Everything is in its boxes. I just absolutely love it. And what I really love is how it talks about different types of assessment that we can do or the options that we have while we're still trying to figure out how to assess those kids.
[00:23:45] And of course there's a lot of conversation about dynamic assessment. And a lot of times people heard that word. But they're like, I still don't know what that means, right? Like, what is dynamic assessment? What, what does that look like? I've never done that. Or, for example I've done it, but I've only done it for a specific kid, and I don't know how to do it.
[00:24:05] For a person who is bilingual. So, yeah, go ahead. 
[00:24:10] Carolyn Dolby: Sorry, dorian, thanks. I wanted to I think other people might have the same question. Do you mind repeating the BICS and the CALP again? Just go over the, what they stand for. 
[00:24:20] Margaryta Kuzmin: Absolutely. 
[00:24:21] Carolyn Dolby: Thanks. 
[00:24:22] Margaryta Kuzmin: So, BICS, and you got that right, B I C S stands for basic interpersonal communication skills, right?
[00:24:30] Think about basic skills. That's hi, how are you? I'll see you tomorrow. Bye. I did you, did you have any homework? Yes, I did my homework. So basic skills, just like a basic conversation that you typically have between peers, between a teacher and a student. . Great. And then the cal, it's CALP, cognitive academic language proficiency.
[00:24:55] So that stands for more advanced understanding of our schooling, what we learned within the school, right? So like I, so for example, if you, in history, you are learning about Westward exp, right? Expansion and you have so many vocabulary in that as you learn that, so the, that part. It's called cognitive academic language proficiency.
[00:25:20] So that's something extra that you'll learn within each of the classrooms, including mathematics and, you know, whatever. So that the CALP takes from five to seven years. So that's the crazy part, right? So it takes a long time for those bilinguals to really get a hang of it, to be almost like on the same level with the monolinguals to understand, to, to be able to really comprehend what, what we're learning and what those things are.
[00:25:46] So that's why I want to make sure that you guys have that information so you will become a little bit more sensitive when you are serving that population and you can ask that question. Well, You know, it's been only like, for example, 2 to 3 years. Am I too quick to judge possibly that it's a language delay?
[00:26:05] Maybe the child is still learning. Because I'm asking really high end questions and maybe the child is just not ready to answer them. So if if you want, I'm not sure where you want this conversation to head on. I was I wanted to talk a little bit about dynamic assessment, but you guys tell me if you want me to expand on anything else, like I wanna make sure that I'm also listening to the audience and any questions you guys have, we could definitely do 
[00:26:34] Carolyn Dolby: One quick question.
[00:26:34] If what you gave us a per a percentage of how many bilingual LPs? Yeah. 
[00:26:40] What was that percentage? 
[00:26:42] Margaryta Kuzmin: 6%? I think it was six point something. 6%. Of all SLPs have bilingual extension, which is crazy. 
[00:26:52] Carolyn Dolby: Okay, so you're stating that only 6 percent of speech paths out in America have that bilingual is what you're saying.
[00:27:01] Margaryta Kuzmin: That's what I that's what I read. And I don't know how recent that out of the people that we have here. We have about 45 participants right now. Can you guys. Let me know if you have a legal certification. Just, just put a yes if you do, and if you don't, just stay quiet. I just want to know. No. Yeah. No.
[00:27:22] No. Yeah. No. No. Just like, even taking out of this group, right, we just have, you know, not just, but okay, we have one yes. 
[00:27:32] Carolyn Dolby: We have a, we have a yes, we have a bilingual, but not a cert. 
[00:27:36] Margaryta Kuzmin: We have those. So I guess because we do have People like Madeline that do speak another language but have not took a certification.
[00:27:45] She's also very important SLP because she still speaks the language. She still can ask those questions to a parent, right? So she's definitely have a better luck with those bilingual students, especially of the language that she speaks. But maybe that that percentage was taken out of those who are certified.
[00:28:03] That's why it's so low. And just taking a sample, a lot of the people who present who are here to present today, we see how, how it could totally be a representative of of the nation as well. But I don't know how recent, so I don't want to, I don't want you to guys to quote me, but it, and it seems like, and that, and what I read is that 4 percent out of that 6 are the Spanish bilingual SLP's.
[00:28:26] So then it only leads to 5 percent of everyone else. Right. So that I'll be in that 2 percent 
[00:28:31] Carolyn Dolby: Well, I think, 
[00:28:32] I think getting into dynamic assessment is really important because here we are, for us to really have the tools. To know that, okay, I'm a monolingual speaker, what do I need to do? You know, of course, I'm going to try and, you're saying, to get a native speaker, what else can I do?
[00:28:50] Margaryta Kuzmin: Right. 
[00:28:51] So when we really look at dynamics assessment, honestly, there is no such thing as like a a nice chart that tells you this is what dynamic assessment is. So it's a good thing and a bad thing. So a bad thing because We love charts. We love people just tell us this is what you need to do. But unfortunately, this is not how things work within the school system, especially.
[00:29:13] So, so that's kind of the good thing that comes out of it. It's going to be up to you. How would you like to gather the information together? And you could do that by probing different things. And so, for example although I did not speak English when I started I was obviously very good at gesturally.
[00:29:33] I could point to things. I could communicate with my face if I'm hurt or if I need to go somewhere, I would point to the paper. Kind of like letting you guys, you know, like, okay, like, how do I get here? Even though I don't really say that sentence, right? So you see that there is obviously cognition.
[00:29:51] There's a lot of processing that's happening. So little things like that would really you know, go a long way. Communicating a lot of these kids who come in who are bilingual or learning a second language most likely they will have some sort of. ELL or ESL, that's where it used to be. I think it's ELL, English Language Learners will have a teacher, EL teacher.
[00:30:14] So this is a perfect person to have a little bit of communication just to see how they're doing. In that class, are they picking up the new vocabulary? How fast are they learning the new vocabulary? So, you can, you know, break down the, the tasks and those components, right? So, when we're looking at language, we want to make sure that the child understands us, what, you know, what, what we are saying.
[00:30:37] And, and as Caroline said, I work for special education. So, I work with kids who are autistic and also bilingual. I work with kids who are down syndrome, with Down syndrome, Who are also bilingual. I work with very, you know, severely and dramatically complex population who are also bilingual, right? So how do we, how do we do all this together, right?
[00:31:02] So, if you don't work with that type of population, for example, then you really have to look at those deep understandings. If the child is able to imitate you, you can do non word imitation, or even maybe possibly a word imitation. Teach, right? So just teach a few words and see how quickly the child is able to grasp that, right?
[00:31:25] And that will give you an indication of if it's true a language disorder or it's just a student was just learning. So for example, well, how many, how many trials does it need? Not, not many, actually, not many, right? If you show me an apple and you tell me apple, apple, apple. Can you show me an apple out of four different items?
[00:31:49] I probably will point to an apple because, you know, I hear you. Maybe I'm not going to retain that word tomorrow, but you just said apple four times, and you told me to identify an apple in the field of four. I think I'm going to be able to do it if I, if I'm functionally in the Typical way, right? And those questions when you ask the parents it's really important to say, like, do you think your child has any issues?
[00:32:15] Does your child is able to follow directions? Is your child able to when they speak in your language, are they making any errors? Right? But even with that, like, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna Few words for the child to imitate or the child's able to imitate me. And I'm gonna pick maybe just if it's just a sound now it may not be in the child's repertoire of sounds.
[00:32:40] Mm-hmm. , for example, in my language there was no in the sounds right, the th and the, the sound. So that's probably would be very difficult for me to produce. But other sounds I'll probably be able to imitate after you. So just kind of doing a quick assessment like that will give you a little bit of time.
[00:33:00] And I think that I read a study that says that if a child attends the school and learns English, just, you know, just kind of thrown into school and has at least 30 percent of his education done in English, by about one year, you'll know 100%. If the child is able to, to, to function, it really doesn't take that long.
[00:33:22] It's just in one year, it takes about one year for them to just pick up, right. And we talked about the bigs, right. That, that simple back and forth. And once we have that back and forth, we could really see how fast they get in this right? And then and I'm talking about the standardized test, which I think is really important in regards to assessment, right?
[00:33:44] We talk about the dynamic assessment, just kind of like putting different things and making your own tasks. I use a lot of standardized portions of standardized tasks as my tools. I think it's important, and I think this is one of the big things I want to emphasize. Make sure that SLPs leave here with is Just don't record the scores.
[00:34:06] Just don't compare them to the sample of kids that have nothing to do with this kid. Use it. Use it. Please use the pictures. If they don't know the pictures, teach them the pictures. Use it to your advantage. Tests are not bad. It's bad when you compare them to people that you shouldn't compare them.
[00:34:25] That's bad. In my opinion and I think it's unethical so and I don't do that within my kids whether they're autistic or just bilingual I think it's just that I just want to know how you are doing today And how you are doing in three months and that to me is important but how you do on the test on pls5 cell 4 I really don't care and I advocate so much for that and I hope I hope hope hope hope Those who tend to do this because they are pushed in schools and I get it you can stand up you can sit out for yourself and I had to do that within my work environment Not this school particularly I would have worked in a different place where they just forced me to do pls5 on all The kids that I served and I just said I will not do it.
[00:35:09] I will give you the score I'll give you the delay the percentage of delay, I will no longer give you the scores of the PLS 5 or CELF 4. I just refuse. I will not do it. It does take a lot of work. So that's one, another big component and a roadblock is that to do all this, to be this amazing SLP, right?
[00:35:31] To do everything right to get an interpreter, to do all these questions, to dig so deep. Then make your own assessments. Who has time for this? Like, who has time for this? And those are real questions that we really need to answer. With the caseloads of, I don't even know anymore. I feel like they're just getting bigger and bigger every year.
[00:35:53] Like, how are we expected, and ethically we want to do that, but then where are we going to have time to do all that? And that's for one kid. What happens if you happen to have three kids right when they go on in caseload? They all deserve that. But again, so I understand. So that's why I wanted to say like, I totally... 65 last year.
[00:36:16] Okay. Like, I don't know. I don't know how you're going to do that. So, so I understand. And I think you just have to do your best and You know, I have no medical
[00:36:25] Children with English, right? So the reason why they do stand or assess is because it's easy assessment tool to get services, right? So if I'm going to say that this child has the delay whatever moderate delay, right? They get services very quickly and it's just easy process, whether it's early intervention or it's within the schools.
[00:36:48] And that's why we do that. However, we have to be really careful because those kids that we're talking about may not be language delayed and we are diagnosing them as language delayed because they are still learning English and they couldn't find whatever they need to be, whatever you said they need to find on that, right?
[00:37:08] So we have to be very, very, very, very careful. And then what happens is that, you know, now you're putting a child into services where they don't, where they don't belong. It's just yeah, 
[00:37:19] Carolyn Dolby: we're infringing on their civil right We cannot... it's unethical to do that. I we do. I wanted to point out. Ardell they work in in a high school and it was indicated that she went talking about they were talking about kelp and how that Students, in order to really reach that level of proficiency, they really need to be reading, and readers.
[00:37:46] And she just kind of wanted to make sure that, to bring that out there, that, what about the willingness of students go, how, how that, the willingness to read go hand in hand with building that proficiency? 
[00:37:57] Margaryta Kuzmin: Sure. I mean, there's so many factors, right? On top of the fact that we're talking about bilingualism, right?
[00:38:02] And just a person who's learning a second language. Right. Just personal values like I don't want to do it, right? Like, or whatever other factors, like, like we talked about the divorce and that they may happen in their home and all these other factors. And that's why there's no such thing as a book where you take a book and you just go chapter by chapter assessing this kid's did, it's just not, nothing like this can exist because of all these different factors that is affecting each individual child.
[00:38:29] Just the child period. And then when you add the bilingual. That's when it really gets messy. Right? So yeah, I agree. I mean, and I guess like, you just do your best, like, right? And you can document everything all the efforts that you provided. And it seems like, if I understood the question correctly, I feel like the child is not motivated to, to learn, or not motivated to read or to learn to read.
[00:38:56] There's, you know, you do your best. You can do your best. And that, and that happens too, right? Especially in high school population where, you know, you know, it's different personalities now, right? We don't have those little goodies that we could just ride with cars and little bubbles or whatever we use.
[00:39:13] Some may not want to participate or may not feel like they need that, right? But it's tough for sure. I know I didn't report the standardized score When using centerized assessments for EL students, do you report age equivalence? So sometimes so again, it depends when I assess the students of who speak Russian and that's the language that I'm going to be certified.
[00:39:36] I could definitely do that. I think it's it's hard to report age equivalent because age equivalent for, for, for, you know, for a kid who is just a year in the country. Like, what is going to be the age equivalent of his English? So it's, it's, it's a tough, I think the best way to really go about it is to be as descriptive as possible.
[00:39:59] And really point out it should be noted that the child has just came to the country half a year ago. The child is still learning English, adjusting to the new culture and assessment is ongoing. And, you know, I used a parent report who said the child does well in his own language. I visited the classroom.
[00:40:20] He sits, participates, tries his best, tries to copy something from the board and, and, and so forth. But I, I do know it does get tricky. So it's And sometimes, like I said, sometimes it is pushed by whether the school to report. So, So I get it. And I don't know what the true answer to that also.
[00:40:40] Because I don't want to say, Hey, don't report anything and then let the school be calling me. But yes, you can definitely advocate. And I think the best thing to do is to just get those resources from ASHA and from the article that I told you to get anything using that as your resources to present that to administration.
[00:40:58] Sometimes with the. A good way to start this conversation is like, Hey, how can we better serve our bilingual students? Because I don't think this is the right way to do it. 
[00:41:10] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, this was this, which leads into this really tough question that's being asked. And it's if you get a student on your caseload, whose language, who is language delayed in their first language, but also do not speak English.
[00:41:26] And they qualify for services because they have a delay in their first language. How do you service them when you don't speak that language? 
[00:41:34] Margaryta Kuzmin: Beautiful question. And I love that question. And I think it's so, such an important question. And the answer to that question is you service them in English.
[00:41:44] Because the research shows that when they have a delay in their own language, when they have a diagnosis, specifically we have a lot of kids with a diagnosis already it is highly, highly correlated with the language delay in the new language that they're learning. And I'm going to give a really good example to that.
[00:42:01] I'm from Ukraine, originally. As you guys know, Ukraine is not doing well right now. There's war and a lot of students immigrating into U. S. and other countries of the world. I'm very lucky and I feel like I've never felt like I'm at the right place at the right time. I'm having three new students added to our school who just recently came from Ukraine.
[00:42:28] So on top of the fact they have a diagnosis Two of them are autistic, and one has a multiple disability, a student with multiple disabilities. And obviously they're in my school, and of course I'm going to pick them up on my caseload. There cannot be any other way. So, and here we are, right?
[00:42:44] And I know that I'm talking because I speak that language, but I wanna, the reason why I wanna use these examples is to show you how fast they learn the language. So, this child who has multiple disabilities, his expressive language is higher than his cognitive skills, so he will just talk and talk, and sometimes it doesn't make sense, and he'll go on tangents you know, but he's like socially So sometimes he gets it like right, so right, like when I see him, he's like, Hi, how are you?
[00:43:13] And I'm like, I'm great. And then he, and then he just goes 24, 24, 45, 65, and he just goes off tangents, counting or whatever he wants to do. Right, so that was his skills before he started learning English, and then he came to our school, and of course, like, the teacher speaks English, a lot of staff members only speak English, right?
[00:43:32] And guess what happens? So this has been a year, he came, I think in November so it's been almost a year in the school. Same thing happens in English, expressive skills just skyrocketed. He could just talk in sentences, no problem, but cognitive skills still struggles. So it's directly proportionate to the same thing.
[00:43:54] And I think what's another important thing that leads from this conversation into another is like, do we recommend those kids, especially towards the late To stop one language just stop the home language. Let's just go board him with english because you know He's in the united states now like that's what his life is and what do you think the answer to that?
[00:44:12] I mean, I think you guys kind of got it for me What the answer is but let's have some participation here. What do you guys think should we recommend to To stop the home language, in home. Should we encourage the parents? To speak English with their kids if they are delayed. 
[00:44:32] Carolyn Dolby: That's right.
[00:44:33] Shelby, Jocelyn, Megan, Heidi, Kelly, Abby, Lynn. I can't get you all. Everyone's like, no, I think this is outrage is happening right now. We love everybody that's listening. 
[00:44:44] Margaryta Kuzmin: And here's the shocker. I still, in my school, still have teachers who would recommend this during the IEP. And unfortunately, and I don't want any.
[00:44:56] To be in that situation. But unfortunately, I have to just interrupt the teacher. Right smack in the middle of this sentence. And I was like, actually, the research shows the opposite. Please continue. There's really no reason for you who a parent who just immigrated to this country or just six months or a year still learning herself.
[00:45:19] For you to start being this bad English model for this child. And then also just imagine internally what you have to feel, right. Like I have to speak, I have to just completely, you know, I just feel the answer to that is please do not tell parents. Stop their home language and encourage that the teachers that you work with To make sure that they don't recommend this to the parents because especially for those nonverbal kids And they feel like the best word.
[00:45:52] I love are they confused are they confused? They're not confused They, they please, they are not confused. My my Down syndrome kids who speak both languages, they are not confused. They just have Down syndrome. They have language delays, they have cognitive delays. That's what is the issue. It's not the two languages, that's the issue.
[00:46:11] The two languages actually allows them, allows the brain to grow and have more synopsis and, and And areas that are activated in their brain because they're bilingual. So, please, please, please, that's like another big thing that I want you to leave here with. Don't score them and compare them to other kids.
[00:46:28] And please do not tell parents to stop their home language. 
[00:46:31] Carolyn Dolby: I want to make sure I heard that and everybody in the back heard it. Do not, do not judge them rate them along with the, with non Native speakers of, right? And yes, and please continue to encourage the home language. I know we, you know, we've talked a lot, but do you want to touch on treatment progress dismissal? For the time we've got left, we're going to want you back on because you've got so much wonderful information for us. 
[00:47:01] Margaryta Kuzmin: I really appreciate it. And I'm having fun with you and I love all the comments. I know a lot of participants. It's really like a big like live event. Even though I don't see you guys, I definitely feel the energy in the chat room.
[00:47:13] So I guess as we go into dynamic assessment and dynamic assessment is always Teach retest so that retest becomes your progress that retest becomes something that you track right and then and sometimes those kids may still end up even if they are just learning English, that's okay. Give them a year see how they're doing.
[00:47:36] And if you see they're picking up English and they, they're moving, they're understanding, they are, you know, they may obviously still have some grammatical issues, right? Languages sometimes follow different grammatical pattern. It took me a little while. I was emitting all the articles, I may still emit some articles.
[00:47:53] It's just a part of how I learned my language. My, my language does not have the articles, so I don't feel the need to put them right. So the boy is this, I just say, boy, is this like, to me, it's just, it feels natural, so the grammatical, so maybe on the test I would score as that was grammatically incorrect.
[00:48:15] However, it's just I'm learning a new language. It's really difficult for me to learn. And again, it depends on what age the child is learning. Of course, the younger kids will pick the language much faster. And I think the cutoff for accents, right? So people have accents versus not, it's about 12 years old.
[00:48:33] 12 years of age. So if a child is exposed to second language, a sequential, right? He came, he learned, for example, Spanish. At four years old, he came to the United States to start learning a new language. At four years old, he was most likely not going to have an accent as he grows up. If it's after 12 years old, There's nothing you could do.
[00:48:54] You are always going to carry a little bit of that accent, which I know that I carry. And it used to be such a burden to me, but I've learned to just accept it and love it. And what made me accept it and learn it and love it is those kids who Come in to my school to speak my language and my services so badly.
[00:49:15] And I was like, this is why I speak a second language so I can help them so they feel so supported and they don't feel like they are not fitting into this environment. So I've learned, but it's a process for everyone, right? It's a process on accepting yourself, accepting your mistakes. So, so yeah, 
[00:49:35] Carolyn Dolby: we want to we don't have too much time, but I do, there's a couple of questions I want to ask you in a minute, but I want to get to dismissal before we, we ran out of time and then, then we'll go over a little bit because there are a few questions.
[00:49:49] Margaryta Kuzmin: Yes. 
[00:49:51] So dismissal, and I think as we talked about is just having a team. Like, don't feel like you need to do this on your own. You talk to the teacher, you talk to the parents, you talk to the ESL teacher, you look at everything that the child is doing, and if you feel that this is just, the child is just learning English, then let them go.
[00:50:11] However, if you feel this child is still struggling, right, there's so many things that we can look at. We can look at attention, we can look at memory, we can look at things that are not linguistic per se. We could look at things like like even you're teaching a word that doesn't even exist in English.
[00:50:27] Like, how fast can they pick that word up, right? Like, how fast are they learning the things that you are teaching them? And that's what's going to be the indication. Okay, I think they still may need help because you know what? I've read this passage and it's like a very small book and I've read it like six times and this kid is still not getting the basic things that I'm trying to do.
[00:50:48] So they probably haven't unlearned the right They probably need help even with their own language. And those are the conversations we keep having during the IEPs, you know, with parents, with teachers. And as a team decide that versus just putting everything, pressure on SLP. And I know the pressure goes on SLP because it's speech language services.
[00:51:06] But it shouldn't be a one person decision, right? It's the teachers with the teaching things. Because the teachers have in them The majority of the day. How are they doing there? Like, how are they doing in all their classes? How are they doing in math? Math is a great, great skill. I mean, we don't really think about it.
[00:51:21] But kids who are not language delayed, they want to do pretty well in math. You know, some of the things that you don't need the word problems, especially like just like dividing or adding or How are they doing on that? Because if they can problem solve there I'm going to say they're probably doing really good, you know, so just looking at those little challenges and other areas that are not specifically linguistic.
[00:51:44] And that's the article that I told you to really look in. It's going to, it looks into that. It looks into non word repetition tasks. It looks into other areas that are not linguistically based to really assess and see If the child is really struggling, like if I'm just going to say, Hey, repeat after me and just give them a sentence to repeat.
[00:52:02] And see if they could just repeat the sentence, even though they may not know what that is, or even create a sentence that doesn't exist in English, even for yourself. Just, you know, and see if they can repeat that. So I think that's where that decision maker comes. You obviously need to spend a little bit of time with the student and it's okay.
[00:52:23] And I'm going to say it's okay because at the end of the day, sometimes as a monolingual SLP, it's hard to be that, excuse me, it's hard to be in that situation where you have to be deciding factor where you really have no tools. To tackle that You don't know, you know, you really, you really stuck in that, but if you spend a little bit of time with that child, you will know, you will know by how fast the child is learning, how is the child function in the classroom, you will know, you will get that information.
[00:52:55] So, and you will base it on that and your dynamics tasks that you keep giving, teaching, retesting. How is he doing now after I taught it? Still struggling. Okay, let's try it again. Still struggling. Okay, let's keep him on for a little bit. 
[00:53:11] Carolyn Dolby: And then on the flip side of that, if they're, if they are quickly picking it up, that, then we're talking dismissal.
[00:53:18] If you can, so it, you might not be using that standardized test because it's not standardized to them, but if, yeah, it might, yeah, 
[00:53:30] Margaryta Kuzmin: yeah. I, I, and again, it's, it's a tricky, it's a tricky It's a trick. It's just like the assessment. It becomes tricky, but I feel like if you become a little bit more sensitive to understanding that sometimes they are getting them wrong because they just want the new language.
[00:53:47] I think that's where the key is. I think once you start seeing a child on a regular basis, kind of get a feel like, you know, That they're okay. You know, like, I just feel like once you start to know a kid and keep teaching and keep reading some books, providing them the vocabulary, oh, like, they're getting it quickly.
[00:54:05] Like, they're getting it. They are attending, they are, you know, their memory is good, right? Because it's just, I'm just learning a new language. I still can follow directions in my own language. I can still do a lot of things in my language. So I'm going to carry all of those skills. So I'll be able to communicate with you in my other ways.
[00:54:22] So you're going to see that effort, right? So I think that's the, the, that's how you decide at the end. But of course the parents any parent's input is very valid in this point. And of course the teacher's interview are very important on how they, you know, like I said, like it has to be a team effort.
[00:54:40] There's no way you can do this on there. It's not a show. 
[00:54:43] Carolyn Dolby: Exactly. And I think that's one thing that SLPs, we need to advocate. We aren't in this alone. We are a team. This is an IEP team. We are a team together and we, we need to use, utilize our team as such. I, Shelby I want to, what you wrote, I really, this one is hitting me.
[00:55:02] And so I do, I want to stop us and just talk about this Margaryta. She says that in her district you have any resources that supports a monolingual SLP providing therapy to a child that they don't speak their language. She has a couple of speech pathologists that refuse to work with those students and will only put them on consult.
[00:55:27] I know, that was my face too. 
[00:55:31] Margaryta Kuzmin: So, New York City is very diverse. There's no way That you can just serve monolingual kids. It's just, it's just not going to happen. So in my district, in my school specifically, we have monolingual student, SLPs serving bilingual kids. The way that we address them in my school is that if that child speaks the language that I speak, I pick up.
[00:55:56] In case sometimes if there's another, just a newcomer, he doesn't speak my language, but I'm more sensitive because I have my bilingual extension, I'll pick them up. But if I'm full and there's a bilingual child, the SLP just picks up. There's no such thing. I know why this happens is because you guys have so many, especially in regular education.
[00:56:21] You have so many sessions that you can actually pick and choose, right? Like it's like, okay, I'm going to take these and these are going to be like on the side. Maybe that's why that happens as well because you can choose and pick. I'm not sure but I understand by resources, the resources that I'm giving you is for monolingual SLPs, right?
[00:56:42] That specifically we made this, this, this podcast is for monolingual SLPs. Because I think that's the bilingual SLPs, we know, like we, we, we taught, we got, you know, we got the schooling. I'm giving you resources for monolingual SLPs. So those are the resources, the ASHA resources for monolingual SLPs.
[00:57:00] The article that I shared, that's the resources for monolingual SLPs. That's the resources that you're going to use. That's the only thing that we have. The SLAM cards from Dr. Crowley, that's what you're going to use. The questions, the parents, the parents that you need to ask are all for monolingual SLPs.
[00:57:17] So those are at least a starting point for those. What they choose to do at the end the SLPs and how the school is runs Unfortunately, it's just not it's something that I cannot answer. I have no idea different states different districts run differently that does not happen in my school, right?
[00:57:34] Carolyn Dolby: I don't think ethically that is that would hold water in court I want to madeline. She in her district they use I I don't know if you call it a clam or clim they use that program to help determine language difference versus disorder. Have you heard of that program? No, I haven't. I'm definitely going to.
[00:57:52] Yeah, and I want to also put another resource out there. Bilingualistics. Have you heard of that? Yeah that is a resource that we use in my district. 
[00:58:01] Margaryta Kuzmin: Nice. 
[00:58:03] Lynn asked articulation. So articulation is really hard, especially when you're just picking up obviously because you have no idea if the child has articulation issues in their language.
[00:58:13] The best way to go is ask a parent do you think your child has articulation issues, right? Does your child and also be, Be very careful of how you phrase this because we could say articulation, and the interpreter has no idea what you're talking about. So you can say, does your child produce the words correctly?
[00:58:31] Every word does your child make mistakes when they produce certain words? So be sure that you kind of tone it down a little bit with our vocabulary words. Instead of receptive skills used, does your child understand? Things when you, you know, you tell your child to do something because your child knows how to identify items in the household and so forth.
[00:58:52] So articulation is a little hard when you start. However, as you are working with that child, you can definitely start probing for those phonemes and seeing if the child's right. You can probe for I and for, and for different phonemes in different positions. Just You can definitely probe and see how the job is doing, but just be careful.
[00:59:12] And there are so many articles about specific language. Like, you can definitely just research, like, Chinese speakers most common errors in English, and it will tell you what the errors will be. So you know that that's a more typical error for that child versus, oh, he has an articulation issue.
[00:59:32] I think that's also going to work. And there's so much resources online for each specific language. I think you could definitely find something for the language that your student speaks. So use that always as a resource. But articulation is definitely hard in the beginning, but I think it could be okay later.
[00:59:50] Okay, 
[00:59:52] Carolyn Dolby: I, I know that there's tons more to talk about. I, I think we would definitely need to bring you back. There's so many more questions. I think this is just such a relevant topic and a hot topic, but I think I want to just leave with saying go to ASHA, go check out what they have, right? I gave the resource for that article that you provided us.
[01:00:15] Biolinguistics, take a look at their website. Flim, I'm looking at this is wonderful. Thank you. Everyone's saying thanks. I just want to thank you, Margaryta, for coming and sharing. You know, this is such a personal topic. And you just bring your heart, and we are so thankful. I hate to say goodbye.
[01:00:35] This has been phenomenal. I have loved it. Everyone has been such great participants as well. This just shows me how much we need to do this again. Margaryta, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't enough. 
[01:00:49] Margaryta Kuzmin: Follow me on Instagram. If you don't mind, follow me on Instagram. Kuzmin, S L P, K U Z M I N, S L P.
[01:00:55] I would love some new followers. 
[01:00:58] Carolyn Dolby: Kuzmin, S L P, K U Z 
[01:00:59] Margaryta Kuzmin: M I N, S L P. I would love some new followers. I'll say that again. So please make surekuzminslp@gmail.Com is my email Please feel free to get in touch with me if you have specific cases if you want me to just again guide you through Some resources if you're having a hard time, I would love to help out as much as I can but I really appreciate this talk.
[01:01:19] I think we've had So many good inputs and so so many good questions and it's it's a tough topic So and somebody posted like this is just an iceberg. The tip of the iceberg and I agree I agree. I agree. But I appreciate that so many Has you know came to this? i'm so glad that so many are interested in this topic And we just that's what continues to to push this topic and and that's what we need to do So i'm i'm just so thankful so much.
[01:01:44] Carolyn Dolby: Thank you. All right. Bye everyone. Bye.