School of Speech Ep 11
[00:00:00] Carolyn Dolby: All right. Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Carolyn Dolby, your speechtherapypd. com podcast host for School of Speech. School of Speech is designed for school based SLPs to come together to discuss current topics, tackle difficult situations, and share our insights. Our goal is to bolster confidence.
[00:00:22] Celebrate our triumphs and foster a community, a community dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. I am so excited for today's episode. Champion, champion change advocacy strategies for the SLP in the schools. We are so excited that you have joined us today. We're going to dive into the world of advocacy for the school-based clinician who doesn't want to explore effective strategies and solutions for improving salaries, benefits, and working conditions.
[00:00:55] By the end of today, we will be the champions of change. All thanks to our special guest, Julie Malone. All right, but before we get started, I do have some housekeeping. Okay. Each of our episodes are 60 minutes and will be offered for 0.1 ASHA CEUs. 
[00:01:15] Let's go through the disclosures.
[00:01:18] Carolyn Dolby: Financial disclosures. We have for Julie, she is a full time salaried SLP for LMSV school district. She is also receiving an honorarium from Speech Therapy PD for her participation in today's episode. Non-financial, she's in the ASHA Special Interest Group 16 school-based issues. And the coordinating Coordinating committee member of SIG 16.
[00:01:43] She's a pretty big deal. Huh. Now she is also the rep for her local union. So this is why she's great for what we're talking about today. I receive a salary as the district level dysphagia support clinician for my school district here in Texas. I'm also compensated for my graduate courses I teach at the University of Houston, and I'm a consultant for school districts across the nation supporting their program development and staff training.
[00:02:10] I receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD. com for hosting School of Speech. Non-financial. I'm a member of the Texas Speech and Hearing Association's Task Force for Feeding and Swallowing. I volunteer for Feeding Matters and I'm also a member of ASHA's special group SIG 16, School Based Issues, as well as special interest group 13, Swallowing and Swallowing Disorders.
[00:02:34] Well, without further ado, I'm so excited to welcome our guest, Julie Malone. She is a devoted speech language pathologist whose background and Experience has positioned her as a leader in public schools. Her educational journey began at Indiana University, followed by an internship at the University of Sydney, and a master's degree with an emphasis in public schools from NAU, which laid a robust foundation for her career.
[00:03:05] Justice, Equity and promoting positive change are central to Julie's advocacy efforts. Julie's exceptional negotiation abilities, consensus building attitude, aptitude, and professional education and resource development skills have earned her the prestigious Van Hattem Award for contributions to the schools.
[00:03:28] Well, welcome, Julie. How are you? And we are so lucky to have you. 
[00:03:34] Julie Malone: Thank you so much, Carolyn. I'm very happy to be here tonight. That was a mouthful. 
[00:03:38] Carolyn Dolby: I know. I know. But hey, let's see what we've already got. Oh, hey, we've got a ton of people jumping in. Let's take a look for a quick second. Hold on. Oh, California, SLP in California.
[00:03:49] Allison is, I do Karen Arnett. Yep. Leslie Baez, SLP. Oh, it's sounding like great. Cassie. I do. Diana. Thank you. Yes. So it's sounding like so far. Everybody that's jumping in is saying that they do introduce themselves as a speech language pathologist. This is going to come into play in a minute.
[00:04:09] Julie Malone: I'm so happy to hear that. You know, when you listen to all the accolades and the different things people have done, I used to be 1 of the school based who would say, well, I really haven't done much. And so let's start right off the bat and say, on your worst day. You need to make a list of the things that you've done because you're gonna be really surprised at just how much you have.
[00:04:30] And nothing is too small when we're talking about advocacy. And advocacy is really standing up, promoting, championing any cause or policy. And in this case, we're talking about our, our ability to perform our jobs in, in the schools. And so. I know some of you may have heard me speak before, and a lot of this is not new because guess what?
[00:04:54] It works. You don't change things when it works. So, I think people really feel like things have to be really complicated to be an advocate. And so let's start with the 1st question, which is who who insists on being called a speech language pathologist for a lot of years. I didn't want to ruffle any feathers and I didn't want to hurt people's feelings and teachers get a little, you know.
[00:05:15] Edgy about the fact that we're not teachers even though we're not and I don't care anymore. So I'm a speech language pathologist. I don't I understand. That's a mouthful for parents. That's okay. That my job is to help promote that and so that's what I do. I've gone to teachers and said, hey, your report template has me as a speech teacher.
[00:05:35] I really need it to look like this and I need it to have a, you know, a hyphen and I need it to not have a slash. That's not what my title is. And It's surprising the response that I've got has been like, oh, I just didn't know. Okay. Well, now you do. And that's how I want to be introduced. That's that. And I think that's a real 1st step.
[00:05:53] When you think about teachers, principals, school, psychologists. Everybody knows their title. There doesn't seem to be any question about it. So, you know, that's up to us to, to advocate for ourselves to be called by our title. And I think that's the easiest thing anybody attending today can do for themselves right off the bat.
[00:06:15] If you're afraid to get started. 
[00:06:17] Carolyn Dolby: Right, Leslie jumped in and had the same thought I did when we're talking about psychologists. They demand the doctor title and they are given that respect. And Tara just jumped on to say it really irritates her when people say speech teacher or introduce them as speechy.
[00:06:33] Yeah. You know, we're adults. 
[00:06:36] Julie Malone: I've been called a speech lady, or even just plain speech. And I actually had PTA one year, right? Can you know, happy speech, S P E A C H on my door one year for teacher appreciation week. I mean, you know, so we have some work to do there and I'm glad to hear that people are not afraid because if somebody gets their feelings or anything, all you have to do is say, There's nothing wrong with any other profession, but if I called you a firefighter, there's nothing wrong with that, except for it's not what you do.
[00:07:05] And that's not what I do. I'm a speech language pathologist. I have really specialized skills and your skills are specialized too. I'm not a teacher. I don't do your skills. So I think it's really important that we start right there with that. I think being kind all these years and not wanting to step on toes hasn't helped us.
[00:07:21] Carolyn Dolby: Right. And if you think about teachers, if somebody called them a babysitter, I've had, I mean, I know I'm taking it way to the, but that has happened. I have heard that, you know, so for sure jumped on to say, yep, she, we have not been in school for as long as we have to be called a speech teacher. Cause that is not what, that's not what our degree is.
[00:07:46] I agree. 
[00:07:47] Julie Malone: So our fundamental issue here really is respect. Yes, I don't, I, I know that all the other settings have some issues that that overlap with us for sure. You know, working conditions different things, but I think the respect issue is much more unique to school based SLP is struggling. Nobody understands what we do.
[00:08:08] They don't understand the value. Of the education that we have, I mean, our master's degree, we all know we're all in here. It was hard. It was not very easy. We couldn't do it online while we were working full time and, you know, stuff like that. It can't be done for our profession. So there has to be a level of respect for for our background and our comprehensive knowledge.
[00:08:28] I mean, birth to death across all of these different disorders. I think even for myself, I couldn't even name. Off the top of my head, every single thing that we impact. And so I think, you know, we've got to do a better job at helping them understand. Teachers do want their, their, their students to succeed and do better.
[00:08:48] And if they could embrace what we do, and not look at us as an opportunity for a break that and not all of them do, but the ones who do, if they could embrace what we actually bring to the table for kids. It's a real game changer because there are a lot of students who need our support and our help to be successful. 
[00:09:05] Carolyn Dolby: I think you're just stepping right into the next question of what why is advocacy essential? Great segue. 
[00:09:11] Julie Malone: Yeah. So, well, I think. What we can say is we have seen over the last number of years, I don't know how many veterans we have in here this evening, but you know, I'm, I'm getting ready to start my 26.
[00:09:25] 2 to 4 year. And, I've seen tremendous change in workload what people expect out of me, the different things, but what I haven't seen is a tremendous change in the level of respect, the understanding of my job for a lot of people, finding a different, a reasonable place to work. I am 1 of those people who was put in a custodial closet with the chemicals.
[00:09:49] So I can relate with lots of people out there who have. Really not so ideal student learning conditions, meaning your office or your your workspace. We shouldn't be talking about this 2550 years later that this is why advocacy matters. I wish I had stood up 26 years ago and said, this is not okay for my students to be in a custodial closet.
[00:10:13] You don't care about me. That's okay. But we got to care about our kids and they shouldn't feel less than to be in a. Place, but you know, nobody else wants to be. And so I think for me, that that's, that's where the rubber meets the road, right? We have not made great gains in, in respect and understanding of our profession, and nobody can take responsibility for that except for us.
[00:10:36] Mm-Hmm, . And so we can either cry about it or we can advocate for ourselves. And that would be my, my preference, you know, is that we get everybody on board. And when you look at. The number of SLPs we have in this country, I know ASHA with audiologists, we have 236, 000 members, and I know there are plenty of people that, outside of that, that may not have those certifications, but they're still working in the schools, and that's okay.
[00:11:01] But think about what our collective voice could do if we're all working towards this goal of respect, better conditions, all of those things. 
[00:11:12] Carolyn Dolby: You just Hit something to me that I didn't that. Okay. So when you said, instead of fighting for me, I want a better, I want a better office. No, what you said, what was so powerful was we need to value our students because I let's be honest administration.
[00:11:34] I know this sounds ugly, but they don't really care about us. Per se, they really care about the child. And I love you just gave us a great words to use a great stances. We're not asking it because I, I deserve the window, you know, the largest office with the windows. No, we are students deserve to be educated in Not in a, in a work.
[00:12:01] What did you cut what you were in a storeroom. 
[00:12:03] Julie Malone: What. Yeah. And by the way, it was so small that rainy days because in California, you know, everything's outside. They would have to close one door to get in to move the table, and the whole school went through this little hallway thing to go to lunch. I mean, it's not just a custodial closet.
[00:12:24] It's also the rainy day schedule, the lunchroom. I would love to take credit for the terminology, my working conditions or my students learning conditions, but that really came from from Carol Fleming. So I give credit where credit is due. I think everybody should use that terminology. I think it's powerful.
[00:12:40] And you're absolutely right. Adults don't care about the other adults, but I really hope that adults in charge care about the kids and. You're always, you always want to pick the argument that puts you on higher moral ground. And this is one of them. Yeah. You know, if you look at 
[00:12:58] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, I'm sorry. I just wanted you to repeat that because I, I want our listeners to really get that, that working conditions are really our students learning conditions.
[00:13:07] Powerful. 
[00:13:08] Julie Malone: Correct. Yeah, and, you know, if you, if you use that terminology and you are on higher moral ground, whatever your argument is, it's really hard to argue back. Do you think you're going to have administrators say to you? Oh, no, you're wrong. It doesn't matter where kids learn. They can learn out on the blacktop or they can learn in the middle of the auditorium while there is an assembly going on.
[00:13:31] Yeah, I don't think that's what they're going to come back with. So you're already setting yourself up. Yeah. For almost a guaranteed acknowledgement. I didn't say yes, but a guaranteed acknowledgement that it's important. And that's the other thing. When you're advocating, you've got to be smart about what you pick, you know, to go after.
[00:13:51] And so, if you go after student outcomes, it's hard to say no to those. It's also. It's also really hard to say no to things that are also important to them. So that would be student outcomes, but that would that would also be a lot of times things that are really important to teachers. If it's something that aligns with us, I call that low hanging fruit go for it.
[00:14:12] You know, if teachers get on board with something, I'll give a perfect example. We wanted a change for IEPs we had too many. I know that I'm not the only 1. everybody out there is dying with the number of meetings that hours involved with each meeting. I mean, that's something that there has been such significant change over the last 26 years or more with with meetings and who has to be there and all the requirements, the number of pages it's being type all of that stuff.
[00:14:43] Okay. But, you know, when, when you look at that. You say to your special ed administrator, I'm really, you know, tired, this is too much, blah, blah, blah. I'll give you an example. One year I, I know that I did four 40 hour weeks full-time of IEP meetings after the eighth hour of my day. And I know, 'cause I submitted timecard, which goes into this comment and that is that nobody wanted to listen when it was special ed.
[00:15:11] And I don't just mean speech. When it was special ed, nobody wanted to touch it. Teachers started having to come to meetings the last few years mandatorily. Right. And it blew up. Oh, it's so many meetings and blah, blah. And you know, my colleagues were upset and they're like, but it's not fair. I go to way more meetings.
[00:15:30] I said, Ooh, let them complain. Opportunity and crisis, you know, let them complain. And that got the issue to the table, and we were able to not get the best deal in the world, but we were able to get acknowledgement that after the 8th hour of our day, we work a 7 hour day. You know, once we had put in 1 hour after school, it's all paid on a time card.
[00:15:52] Originally, it wasn't pretty, but it is now pretty. So our regular rate. And that's how I know that I worked 160 hours. And that doesn't include the extra hour after school, that's just the ones that I got time guarded for a whole month. Wow. That's a lot. And by the way, that leads me to the next point for advocacy and that is data.
[00:16:16] Okay. Data matters. 
[00:16:19] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, 
[00:16:19] Julie Malone: data matters too. So, you know, you think, Oh, I don't have time to write this down or keep track of it but data doesn't lie. Okay. So when you're upset or you're in the heat of the moment, you say, Oh my gosh, I go to so many IEP meetings. I'm here every single day after school. You probably can't back really back that, that up.
[00:16:38] It's a little emotional, but when you say, Hey, I want to show you my calendar. Like this is incredible. When I looked at, I felt like I was doing a lot, but wow, look at this. I think, I think that's something that you have to consider, especially if you're feeling frustrated with something and start keeping the data on it, because that's how you're going to move it forward.
[00:16:58] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely. There's a mantra. We all say it. If it's not documented, it did not happen. And that, right.
[00:17:07] Julie Malone: Yes, and that's true for us as professionals, too. It's not just about kids goals and documentation for Medicaid.
[00:17:16] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, use it for to advocate for our, our, our jobs are. Yeah.
[00:17:23] Julie Malone: So, a couple other things I would just, I would say that I think are really important if you're new to advocacy, there's a great book out there called rules for radicals by Alinsky. And not all of them necessarily pertain, but there are a lot of really great ones. And 1 of them is the the, the fear of the threat is greater than the threat itself.
[00:17:46] And I really like that 1 because. You know, usually are pretty quiet. They don't usually talk about they're really hard workers. They're problem solvers. They want to just get stuff done. They're worried about repressions of not working to the best of their ability. And I, that's 1 of the things you have to respect about our profession is, is just the quality really of of the work that you, you get.
[00:18:11] And so, you know, when you start looking at that, and nobody ever complains the day you guys decide to start. Is be very terrifying because they don't they're going to do it was already unexpected that you'd start to to to make waves. And so that's a, that's a great place to start. I would also encourage you to look into interest based bargaining, even if you're not on the bargaining team or not on your.
[00:18:36] I know not everybody, but that's that's my background 12 years as a support services rep for no pay and then almost 3 years as the vice president and the teachers association with a small stipend. And now I'm back to being a site rep. And so. You don't have to necessarily be an important person, right?
[00:18:57] On your union board to get familiar with interest based bargaining. And I would encourage you to ask if you have a union, or you have some kind of representation to let you attend some trainings on that. And and some of the takeaways are again, that low hanging fruit. Find common ground. So in the case of that IEP story I told, the district wanted IEPs to be held and they wanted teachers to show up.
[00:19:22] That was their priority. And we, we, we shared that priority. We wanted to make sure we met our timelines. We wanted to make sure we got it done. That's where you start the conversation. There were there were other areas. Obviously, we disagreed on right? But you start with the areas. That there's a mutual benefit and having done timely is a mutual benefit and that really open the door to those conversations and you have to kind of.
[00:19:48] Put yourself in the mindset of the people that you're talking to. If I was sitting in the big chair. And the ivory tower, as we like to say, then what would my concern be if I was thinking about my is, and I was thinking about caseload and I was thinking about workload. I was thinking about whatever. What would you brainstorm as their, their issues of concern and, and go from there?
[00:20:14] Because a lot of times you're kind of spot on with what their concerns would be. 
[00:20:19] Carolyn Dolby: And if you think about all the things that we are doing are federally mandated, I mean, you know, I mean, that's heavy. I mean, there's a lot of repercussions for our work not being done, right? 
[00:20:34] Julie Malone: And I'm so glad you brought that up because it's like beating a dead horse, right?
[00:20:39] But it has to be done. You know, I don't get a choice. So teachers can choose how much grading they want to do in a night. Are they going to do this or they're going to do that? They get, they get some options in there that we don't have. If it's due the next day, it doesn't matter. That we spent 6 hours on a report on our own time at night, trying to get it done because the kid had been absent for 3 weeks before before their evaluation was due.
[00:21:02] Right? I mean, we've all been in these situations. Aren't really our fault, but the expectation is we're going to find a solution for it. And I think that's another thing is that because we're solution oriented. Districts really haven't had to feel the pain of what happens when it doesn't get done because we're doers and I would never tell anybody not do their job.
[00:21:26] I think everybody should do their job. But I think when you've hit your limit, you have to express that. You've hit the limit. This is not doable. This is not something that can be done. Can be done long term and I don't know about anybody else, but for years, I was willing to do anything extra if I got paid per diem, because it used to be like, you know, a substitute rate or a curriculum rate, which was like.
[00:21:50] Ridiculous in California, barely our minimum wage and, so I refuse to do those kinds of things, but if they offer me my pretty.
[00:21:59] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, I think we just lost Julie, but she's going to pop right back on. Here she comes. I'm so sorry. That's okay. It's okay. I knew you were going to pop right back on. 
[00:22:13] Julie Malone: No, I mean, you know, these things you, you can't let them get you down. You have to keep moving, moving things forward in the, in the ways that you can.
[00:22:23] Yeah, I forgot where I was. 
[00:22:25] Carolyn Dolby: That's okay. Because I I want to. I want to get into some of these. I mean, we, there's, we're talking about, you know, what we need to be advocating for work, respect, understanding, our working conditions, and with the focus on that, our working conditions are our students learning conditions.
[00:22:47] What are some solutions to some of those challenges that we're going to be facing? 
[00:22:53] Julie Malone: So I think you have to really get some people on board that have more juice than we do. And the way you do, I would say the lowest of that level would be going to your parent teams. So PTO PTA, none of us want an extra meeting.
[00:23:12] If you, you don't even have to volunteer to be the rep if you have that, and I'm sorry, I know it's different terminology in different places in the country. P. T. O. P. T. A. whatever it is, is your parent organization in my, in my current job. There's somebody in my school that has to attend as 1 of their adjunct duties on top of their regular daily work.
[00:23:33] And you don't have to do that, but you can find out when their meetings are. You can ask to be put on an agenda to talk about the services that you provide. I did that many, many years ago. I really wanted when FM systems like portable ones came out. I really, really wanted one. And of course, nobody wanted to buy one for me.
[00:23:50] And so I went to the PTA president and I made my plea and it was like 149. It wasn't like it was a lot of money. And she goes, well, I really like that. Now, if I got that for you, would you be willing to share that with micro society? And I said, absolutely, because I'm not seeing kids during micro society.
[00:24:09] That would be fantastic. Boom. Next thing, you know, it's paid for and it's done and life changed for me. As far as acknowledgement with teachers after having that interaction, and that sounds so simple. But I bet you there's a, there's a parent on there somewhere that has a kid with a speech. 
[00:24:30] Carolyn Dolby: That I wouldn't have even thought of that.
[00:24:32] That's that's brilliant. That's brilliant. Because you know, the parents there. I mean, if they're going to those meetings, they're vested, they're wanting to help. And they don't a lot of those parents don't even know we exist. 
[00:24:46] Julie Malone: And who do districts listen to they don't listen to employees. No, they're going to listen to the parents.
[00:24:50] And if you can be strategic to do it at a time when you know that there is a speech kid. That is being represented in those meetings. It's ideal. I mean, it's it's really it's 1 meeting and that's the thing I'm going to say about advocacy. It's not time free. Right? It's not. It is going to you have to have some investment and sometimes you have to be consistently invested for a period of time.
[00:25:18] But if you do that, I really promise that you will see results because when they know you're going to keep coming back, it's really hard to ignore you.
[00:25:30] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, front load, front load at all. 
[00:25:34] Julie Malone: And that also goes hand in hand with your school board. And I think that this is an entity that people really 1st of all, people are afraid, but I'm going to tell you, at least in California, everybody has the right to speak at a school board meeting on any topic of their choice.
[00:25:52] You have to walk up to them when you 1st, get there at the beginning of the meeting and ask for a speaker card. You have to tell them who you are. You don't have to say what school you work at. You can say that, you know, wherever you live your city, whatever, but you have to put your topic of what you want to talk about.
[00:26:09] And at least here, we get 3 minutes. And let me tell you, anybody who is willing to walk in front of a school board and talk for 3 minutes. They get their attention and usually. They can't ask any questions during that time, but I do know after doing that for a variety of topics, not just advocacy for for, but as VP of the teachers association, I would talk on a variety of different things.
[00:26:35] Or, like, I champion a dog walk here in San Diego. I have a district team and that gave me an opportunity to go in front of them on a not not on a controversial issue or a specific issue. But it gave me an opportunity. Hey, look what I'm doing for our district. This is my name. This is who I am. And I'm really not going away.
[00:26:56] I come back every year and I talked to you about this. And then I let that be a segue into some other things. And by the way. If any of your colleagues get an award, I don't care as a certificate from a parent, go get a speaker card and say school board. I just wanted you to know Sally Jones got acknowledged by this parent and got this certificate.
[00:27:17] And I think that the district should be aware and acknowledge this person for their hard work because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Value of the I think that that those are ways that you can start making those. Those inroads with the people who actually make decisions, because our administrators make some of the decisions, but your school board is the boss of your administrator.
[00:27:43] And so, if they have a differing opinion, that gets really interesting. 
[00:27:48] Carolyn Dolby: I love that because I, you know, we, I see on our district website, you know, different teachers are highlighted or this activity was highlighted. I don't often see things that speech paths are doing, and we are amazing. We are doing all sorts of amazing things.
[00:28:08] And I know that I've, I've even kind of mentioned it to the higher up and nothing. Nothing was said but I like the idea of, you know what, I should have gone to the board and said, Hey, listen to what you know what I've done. I think that. That gave me something to think about because, yeah, I was kind of like, I think we should talk more.
[00:28:30] We should be, we should be proud and stand behind all the things that we do. And it should be recognized. I think our accomplishments should definitely be. Like I always say, it's not bragging when it's true.
[00:28:43] Julie Malone: Right. 
[00:28:45] Well, and when you, when you go to a school board and say, I don't know if you realize this, but speech language pathology services are the most targeted service by advocates, lawyers, and court cases.
[00:28:56] You think you're going to get somebody to pay attention to you at that moment? Heck yeah, you are, because I don't know that they always know. I don't think districts always share these things, but I think it's fair to say, you know, as the, as the most targeted service in your district, how can we don't get support?
[00:29:13] I see this group getting support and this group getting support and we're not why? Because we're really good at our jobs. That's not really equitable. Is it? And I think that's important that you have to highlight. These things and it can't be 1 person, right? You know, I mean, 1 of the things I would highly recommend, especially if there's fear going to group.
[00:29:36] If you have 50 in your district, and you can get 50 percent of them to show up and where I am a speech language pathologist, or my favorite shirt is watch your language. I'm an something that is definitely highlights you as. A speech language, but they, they can't just go. I don't know who that person is.
[00:29:55] There's a bunch of people sitting in the audience. Oh, wow. Look, there's a whole group of here. What's going on? What's happening and it only takes 1 person to talk and you do that. 
[00:30:06] Carolyn Dolby: Every single meeting. I love it. I do think, to be honest with you, that there is some fear of getting some pushback, retaliation from the coordinator or the, you know, the, the lead of the department, you know, you know, I think there is some fear.
[00:30:24] Julie Malone: Carolyn, what you said about it's not bragging if it's true. Yes. Okay, so let's go back to that because, you know, if, if somebody calls you on the carpet, you can say, did I, did I misrepresent the facts. Yes. I mean, that was certainly not my intention, right? I mean, I had the best of intentions. I hope you would assume that about me because I assume that of you that you don't deliberately try to say things that are untrue.
[00:30:49] So help me understand where I was wrong with the data that I shared or the information that I shared because I'm happy to go back to the school board and tell them I made a mistake if you can show me where I did it. 
[00:31:02] Carolyn Dolby: Love it, Julie. Thank you. Sometimes we just need those words to, to be like, you're right.
[00:31:09] I have the right. I am a person. I'm an employee, but I'm all, you know, but I have the right to stand up to some working conditions. I just went back to that. 
[00:31:20] Julie Malone: Contracts and they have job descriptions. I mean, you need to use that to your advantage. That would be another major point. Know your contract, whatever that is, whether it's a collective bargaining agreement or just a contract or a job description.
[00:31:34] You need to know, because a lot of times they'll say you have to do something that I haven't seen written down. And 1 of the things I love to say, this is 1 of my favorite phrases is show me where it says in the contract that I'm different. Because if I'm on a teacher contract. Then I have all the same rights and protections.
[00:31:54] So you show me where it says specifically in the contract, SLPs have to do more meetings than anybody else, or SLPs have to take all their work home or SLPs have to do, you know, name, whatever you want. It doesn't matter. Show me in the contract where it says that, and people have seen me post online. No, I say that all the time.
[00:32:11] That is my personal phrase. You have to hold them accountable. To the rules that they already agreed to, which is also in the rules for radical book, you know, make sure you make them follow their own rules. And, you know, they like to pick and choose when they use some of their rules. And if you're really consistent and say.
[00:32:32] You know, last time we had this conversation, you said something completely different. So I'm confused. When does this rule apply? And when does it not? And, you know, people think that's confrontational. It's being direct. It's being direct, just like they're going to be very direct with you. I'm sure. And so you have, you have to.
[00:32:51] You don't want to show fear, right? People always think when they hear me talk, I love to talk in front of people and I like to argue and I like to get in these. No, I, I hate conflict with a passion. That's not something I like. But what I hate even more is being mistreated. Sure, and so you have to draw the line at what you're willing to tolerate.
[00:33:13] And so. You know, I think that that's an important thing for people to realize, you know, if you're getting to the end of your rope, that's not a good thing. Let's head it off before you get to that point and really almost everything we asked for show me how it's not good for kids because Caroline when I was taking work home, like, you know, doing, you know, grading of tests and everything, you know, scoring tests for 4 hours a night, trying to keep up with 100 plus caseload at 1 point in my career.
[00:33:44] And I came in and 1 of my kids asked me why I was grumpy and that was an aha moment for me because while the district may not think that the work I take home affects my kids. It 100 percent affects my kids. I'm tired. I'm drained and I am not at my best. Do you want me at my best with the students? I want to be at my best with my students.
[00:34:07] Carolyn Dolby: Right, which really kind of. Goes into that workload caseload concept that we really need to be talking about. 
[00:34:16] Julie Malone: And you know what, that's going to be a matter of really educating people. There are people moving that forward. Charlotte Green in Georgia is moving that forward. Not only that, but also not doing billing.
[00:34:29] Because they've looked at the amount of stress it puts on, the amount of direct service it takes away from kids. And here's the thing. She got the data. She got the data to show. That it was and don't quote me, because I might be wrong. I went to this presentation last year, but I think it was, like, at least 5 hours per SLP of direct services lost.
[00:34:50] To bill and to be honest, I think that's low, but okay, let's go with 5. you take that times 30. that's 150 hours of lost time. Now, if you're truly going to be honorable and make it up. How much does that cost you? Right? Do you have to have how many do you have to have to fill in the gap for that? And I think when you find out that it's a wash.
[00:35:14] It's, it's helpful to educate your own district on the fact that yes, you see this money. Ooh, I want the money. I want the money. Money isn't free folks. Yeah, money comes at a cost. Right. And, and there's a workload associated with billing, and the amount of notes which by the way are way more encompassing than I think most SLPs realize they keep.
[00:35:38] You know, trying to make us medical, but we're not medical. Right? I've been told I'm not medical. And so, you know, you have to, you have to really be able to, to, to marry those 2 things together and then bring it back to kids. So, my main issue. In addition to my workload with that is also that it's not good for kids because if I have 5 kids in a group.
[00:35:57] And I have to take a soap note on every single kid on every single session. Yep. Am I really teaching a skill or am I taking notes all the time? And, you know, I don't I don't think that's a good thing. So I think those are the kinds of things you can bring back to tag along with your workload. The Azure workload calculator.
[00:36:17] It's somewhat customizable, but I'm here to tell you if you guys have really specific needs with something calm, they'll change, they'll make a change. I asked for a change in something and I got it and they were like, we don't really want to share this with people. And I said, well, I don't know why not, but okay.
[00:36:30] I don't care. This is what I want and I got it. And so we've used it. And I think that, you know, if that doesn't work for you, use it as your start off point. But again, it comes back to the data. And I don't know about you guys, but sometimes I get questioned about where my data came from, or how I came up with it.
[00:36:49] So, 1 of the things I pre thought before we started taking those those workloads surveys and calculators and things. Was what grief am I going to get when I bring this to them? What are they going to say to me about how I doctored this information? And not to be mean, but they, they're trying to do it with the least amount of money.
[00:37:09] I get it. They have a job to do. But so do I and so what we did is at the start of the year. We selected 3 random weeks throughout the school year that everybody was going to do a 1 week calculator. And the purpose in that is, you know, we know that, you know, there are certain times that you're exceptionally busy, right?
[00:37:27] Your transition times and stuff like that. So you definitely want something in that that area. But it's not each SLP picking their busiest week to present, and they can't say that you did that when everybody does the same three weeks because our calendars aren't the same. And so when you take that data forward, you've already like blown that argument right out of the water.
[00:37:50] Carolyn Dolby: That's, that's fabulous. That's perfect. Right? Yeah. You're showing the data and the validity of that data. I love that. so much, 
[00:38:01] Julie Malone: And so if they say, how did you pick those weeks? I don't know. We had SLPs raise their hand and we're like, what does this week look like? Oh, that's parent conference week.
[00:38:10] That's probably not a great week to show anything. Okay. We aren't going to that one, right? And. You know, that kind of thing. Oh, we had a break, so we couldn't do 1 in this trimester because of the way the break help, whatever, whatever you have to do. But I think when it's random. And they aren't the same from year to year, and we do them pretty much every year, because I think the workload changes from year to year.
[00:38:31] Sure. I think what you'll find when you do 1 of them, whether, you know, I know, North Carolina, Mike was talking. He's the school finance committee chair right now. He's talking about North Carolina, moving to a workload model. And they're trying some different things. I know they're working on some stuff.
[00:38:48] There are a lot of states that are already have stuff in progress. Ohio has. In my opinion, something really complicated, because I've not been trained on it, but it's also very thorough with waiting and all of this stuff there. Do do a Google search because there are people who are doing it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.
[00:39:07] But when you take a hard look, at least on the actual workload calculator, the little circle graph at the top, when it shows your, your pie graph of how your time's divided up when you show that 52 percent of your time is spent on on. Mandatory tasks that are paperwork. I think that's really telling right that you, you even I really expected that my student contact hours were going to be the largest percentage of the pie and they're not it's mandatory compliance.
[00:39:39] I think that's the word that's used on the calculator is compliance activities. And I, I think. That might be the next step for a school board meeting is to say, hey, I just wanted to share this with you. I don't know if you realize we're a federally mandated service and we don't get a lot of choices and how things happen because there are these mandates.
[00:39:58] But I think it's important that, you know, that we spend 50 percent of our time doing mandatory paperwork activities. And oh, by the way, those are prioritized over actually seeing kids because that's what we get called on the carpet for. 
[00:40:11] Carolyn Dolby: And how is that. Working at the top of our license. How is that being a speech language pathologist?
[00:40:21] Julie Malone: Right? Because they have a slip up, right? And, and, and we don't have them anymore because when they realized they couldn't use them to reduce our caseload, then they, they got rid of them. But you're right. 
[00:40:30] Carolyn Dolby: Got rid of your SLPA. We call them SLPAs and you kind of flip it. So you, you got rid of all your SLPAs.
[00:40:37] Julie Malone: Yeah, there was no conversation about it either. It was they were just gone. Yeah, it was it was pretty incredible. And so, but here's the thing they wanted to use it for the wrong reason. And that was to reduce the caseload to say that we can keep you really, really high. Okay, so in my county where I am, we have a SELPA, so a special education local plan area that's in charge of.
[00:41:02] Special ed for any number of districts, depending on where you are, and we have a 55 average for that in our state education code. Well, You know, teachers get a nice little list every, every week, or every day at the beginning of the school year to talk about averages and make sure everybody's fair and whatever.
[00:41:20] I've never had 1 of those in almost 27 years. Right? So, I think that's another question is, if this is what the code is, then I want to see the numbers. So who's going to start showing me these numbers. If Ed code says 55 and you're going to use a slip to try to reduce that and they say you can't do that.
[00:41:36] Well, then we're just going to take the slip away and really not much changed with with with caseload. So, it's, it's sad, but it speaks to what you said, which is working to the top of our license. And I think. Many people are afraid to take a slip an intern you know, whatever, because. The part of the job we love is working with kids and so then you're afraid to take any help that's offered because that means I just get to sit and do paperwork, which I don't really like to do.
[00:42:09] I can only give up the part that I think is the most important, which is the contact with kids and you're right. That should be where our focus should be with kids. And not on paperwork, I mean, I feel like some of the meeting notices and things like that. Do you have to be an to do that? I don't think so, but I sure need to be an to assess a student as I'm going through their, their weekly minutes and figuring out where they've made progress and where they're still lagging behind.
[00:42:37] Who can do that better than me? Right? Nobody. Hey, are you 
[00:42:42] Carolyn Dolby: right? Yeah, right. Hey, Julie Lauren long. She just asked a question. If you don't mind it, just write about about SLPAs she was wondering why would an SLPA be able to reduce the caseload? 
[00:42:55] Julie Malone: So I think. I think that's a myth with administrators that if they give you this person that makes.
[00:43:03] Much less money than you kind of like, they throw a para paraprofessional into a classroom when their numbers get too high that they'll get you to stop complaining. About your caseload, or are not meeting the ed code or whatever it is, and that they can see the kids and you can do this other stuff. And then it's, you kind of have a status quo, but the states that have it written in that say.
[00:43:28] I can't have 100 kids, even if I have a slip up. Because really what they're doing is they're really maxing both of you out at the same time. And now you have a supervisory task added to your plate. 
[00:43:43] Carolyn Dolby: You know, our SLPAs in our district actually they get paid. Pretty similar to us. I just don't get the stipends that we have.
[00:43:51] Yeah. Yeah,
[00:43:52] Julie Malone: that's impressive. I love that. Mm hmm. 
[00:43:55] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, 
[00:43:56] Julie Malone: play a valuable role and I certainly don't want to minimize that at all. I love the that I had you know, 1 of 1 of them went on to become an, you an AT and a C specialist with a master's. I mean, so we're talking like, what a loss, what a loss for us.
[00:44:12] Mm-Hmm. . But what a great gain for, for a, for at. These are smart people. These are smart people that really are highly skilled too. Not the same skill set as us. So I'm not usually worried. Right. And I think people shouldn't be worried about s LPAs taking their job. That's the value of the fees, that's the value of your license, that's the value of your teaching credential.
[00:44:32] Whatever you have in your state. They do provide a wonderful service. And you know, what I would say is, Hey, you know, if these people know my kids and I end up being out sick, at least kids are getting some therapy, right? I'm going to be really happy with that. That if it's not me, it's somebody else who's qualified and not some random person.
[00:44:53] Sure, sure. But, you know, the other piece comes in about billing. And so, you know, if SLPAs can't bill, that's the other piece I think districts kind of caught on to was, oh wow, well, we want the SLP to see them because they can bill. 
[00:45:10] Carolyn Dolby: Right. Okay. Okay. All right. 
[00:45:14] Julie Malone: That's a whole nother, podcast in itself. It's talking about Medicaid.
[00:45:19] Carolyn Dolby: For sure. Absolutely. Which kind of Medicaid, well, let's get into benefits. So I don't know. Just maybe think Medicaid benefits. 
[00:45:30] Julie Malone: Yeah, benefits. So, you know, union wise, those kind of all fit into a box salary wages, working conditions and benefits. So, you know, most of the time, those are tied to whatever major group you have your teachers or whatever.
[00:45:45] But you should have some say with whoever your, your bargaining entity is as to what those are. And so, you know, that would be your health care. And I know sometimes we have people working part time or whatever, and they don't want to give you health care because you're not working full time. Well, I'd encourage you once again, show me where it says that in the contract, because if you'll do it for a teacher, then you need to do it for me.
[00:46:09] Right? Those, those kind of things. I also think. Maybe people are misled by the word benefits thinking, maybe stipend. So. Let me switch gears a little bit and depending on where you work and whether you're paying into social security, or whether you're paying into a teacher's retirement system. These are really important questions for new to the field, new to the school people to ask, because.
[00:46:35] If you decide this isn't for you, either way, whether it's outside the schools or inside the schools, you decide it's not for you. You may be leaving a lot of retirement money on the table, and I think that's important. Because schools revolve around teachers, teachers generally don't have opportunities for jobs outside of schools.
[00:46:54] And so this where again, we're a square peg right in a round hole, and they don't understand that we've done pretty him at the hospital or we've worked at a sniff or we've been in a private clinic. And now, when we come to the schools, we lose a piece of our retirement because you, you know, you can't have the teacher state retirement and social security.
[00:47:14] It's called the windfall act. And if you aren't familiar with that, I encourage you to look into it because it's important to know. But these are things that, you know, I have brought up with my own association about things that are really. Unfair in the way that you know, we, we get treated. If we try to get out of this out of out of this particular setting, either way, and go to another 1, it's not always that simplistic.
[00:47:40] So you always want to look at because I consider that a benefit, right? To have a retirement. I would make sure that you that you look at that, but along those same lines. You need to understand whatever retirement system you're in how stipends impact that. So, for me, personally, they can't be used towards retirement.
[00:48:01] So, to be honest, I'd rather have them tack a 1000 dollars onto my salary every year as part of my salary, then to add it as a stipend, because that will compound over time. If it's part of your salary and really increase. Your retirement benefits, but if you, if you do it as a stipend, it's just that amount of money and it never compounds.
[00:48:21] So, and that's the same with kind of any stipend or sometimes even extra hourly, like time card work in California, there's a supplemental, which is not terrible. It's not as good as the other, but it's a supplemental and there's a little bit of money there. But if you're going to do like a lot of times they'll say, Oh, you're at 60 percent and I really need you for an extra 10 percent this year.
[00:48:43] I'm just going to time card you. Do your homework and figure out how that impacts you financially long term, because it may be like, oh, yeah, I really want that extra 10%. So I'm going to take it on a time card. But if that doesn't impact your retirement. That'll hurt you down the road. So those kind of benefits and stipends, I think, are important for people to be aware of whatever the protocols are in your state.
[00:49:09] And if you don't know, reach out and ask somebody, 
[00:49:13] Carolyn Dolby: right? It should, it should be transparent and I know, I know it's not. And do you want to talk to, I know that you advocate in your district for the wage salary increase. So impressive. Shout out to you. 
[00:49:30] Julie Malone: That's old now. I know, but people need to hear it.
[00:49:34] Okay. So again, it comes to that low hanging fruit. What are the combined interests, the mutual interest that you have? And what we were having a problem with was hiring SLPs. Imagine that. So we came to the table and we had these conversations and Basically, I educated them on the value of the SLP, why we're unique, why they can't just find somebody, why they can't just hire some random person to do my job.
[00:49:57] Because, you know, that was these things are always conversations. It's kind of comical, but not and so at the end of the day, you know, we, we decided that we had a mutual interest that we had enough staff. And when they don't have enough staff and don't meet timelines that affects the district when we don't have enough staff, it affects your who were asked to do double duty and are very stressed or we have kids that aren't getting seen.
[00:50:23] And we know that that's a really bad recipe. So we, we use that as kind of a jump off point. There were a lot of other pieces to that. If anybody's interested in that, I can always share some other stuff. But yeah, The bottom line is we decided how can we make this attractive and I don't know if today I would do it the same way, because we have a different generation coming up that values a work life balance more than the money.
[00:50:47] So, but I will say that 10 plus years ago, we were valuing the money. And so what we were able to negotiate. And again, this came in pieces, so there's a patience factor here. Okay, the first piece was saying, we're going to give. Any SLP that comes in a 10 year bump on the teacher's salary schedule. So if you're a brand new CF, you're going to start at year 10 on the salary schedule.
[00:51:15] Now, I wanted our own salary schedule. They weren't going to budge on that. Okay. No problem. Okay. Remember opportunity in crisis. We take what we get. And then we keep it forward as things happen. And the great thing that happened was our state teachers association said, you can't have an asterisk and have a different amount for 1 group on that schedule.
[00:51:38] That's not appropriate. Boom. We had our own scale. Okay. So. In my district, and I know this is going to shock people who live in more rural places. Okay. But it's almost a 20, 000 dollar bump. For a brand new to start with us. So guess what? We don't really have a problem hiring.
[00:51:56] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. 
[00:51:57] I wanted you to say it.
[00:51:59] I know I put you on the spot on that, but when I saw that, I was like, oh, my gosh. I love it. I think we need to be 
[00:52:06] Julie Malone: and guess what the other districts because they have these comparables. They're all pretty much doing the same thing. So we're not unique anymore, which makes it a little bit more of a challenge to get those 1st round draft picks as my district likes to say all the time.
[00:52:21] So now they're having to look at what other things they can do. And that then circles right back to workload, because I think that's what are up and coming. S. L. P. S. are going to be more concerned about this job for me. So, when you go to a job interview, you know, whether you're new or old, these are the kind of questions you want to be asking them.
[00:52:42] And I would, I would want specific answers not well, most of the time. No, what does that really look like? I want to know what, what is your workload look like? You know, what is the compensation for all the extra hours? You know, those kind of things because. If you're going to do the work, even if you don't really want to, you should at least get compensated.
[00:53:02] Carolyn Dolby: Right. I am loving everything that you are laying on us today, but I'm wondering, do you have a success story that you can share with us? Kind of bring it all together. 
[00:53:13] Julie Malone: Okay. I am so proud to share this one because I get calls from random people who knows somebody who knows me or something, you know, hey, I have, I have concerns of questions about advocacy.
[00:53:24] Okay, great. Well, I got 1 from right here in my, my home county and I'm going to give a shout out to Kristen childs because she said I could share this with you and she's very excited. But a year ago, I talked to her about some of these very same things I've talked about that people think are too simplistic to work.
[00:53:43] Let's start with the school board meetings. She told me that they attended every regularly scheduled school board meeting. They have between 4 and 10 at every 1 of those meetings with their specially shirts on and 1 person took a speaker card and talked about the value of the at every single school board meeting.
[00:54:01] So, let's say there were 10, because that's usually typical and there might have been 12. I don't know, but let's say 10. that's 30 minutes. Of dedicated time that they have to listen to you talk about value, right? And so, as a result, some really interesting things happen. And I wish I had done something this big, because honestly, I couldn't be more excited about the results she got.
[00:54:23] I mean, it was it was phenomenal. So, as a result of going to all of those meetings. And educating the school board, they clearly were listening. Because she had to file a personal grievance for having to do two private school evaluations on top of probably an over caseload situation. And I'm trying to remember, it's like 22.
[00:54:43] 9 hours extra. And she asked them to pay her for it. And they said, it's part of your job description. And I'm so proud because she said she filed a grievance. And you have to be right. I filed several grievances myself over the over the years. Actually, I think 3 at 1 time, actually, but this is big because when she filed this grievance, there's different levels of grievance.
[00:55:05] And by the time you get to level 3, it's pretty serious. And yet they haven't come to an agreement. And now it has to go to the school board for approval of whatever the district wants to do to remedy it. Right. And so the district was holding firm. They were not going to pay her. This was part of her workload.
[00:55:21] She wasn't going to get paid. And the school board not only said, absolutely not. You are going to pay her for those hours. And guys, this is huge. You will opening bar, you will open bargaining next year. And you will open this topic of how many hours of extra work is done after the contract. I'm seriously, I was blown away.
[00:55:45] Absolutely blown away, but that wasn't the end of it. They have a group grievance about not having their vacancies filled and asking them that's still in process. But she said, we didn't get everything we want, but we saw the most movement we've ever seen. And that was followed up by stipends for all of their special education people.
[00:56:07] I think it was a 1000 dollars. That included any, any ed specialist, psychologist, et cetera. They didn't get the billing stipend that they wanted, but that's still on the table and they're working for it. But they, one of the things she said that came from a town hall was that she was reminded that we have to stay engaged and keep trying for more every year.
[00:56:32] And boom, if you walk away with something tonight, I think that's it. You can't, it's not a one and done. This is a process, and it's unfortunately slow. But in one year to get that? 
[00:56:44] Carolyn Dolby: I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Do you mind backing up a minute? Linda had a question and she wanted you to repeat what you said about getting a different salary schedule.
[00:56:57] In her district, wait, my district does what yours did at first. We are on the same teacher salary schedule, but we have a different, but we have different steps. 
[00:57:07] Julie Malone: So we were told at least in California that that's inappropriate that you can't have asterisks and different things on a salary schedule that if it's a different.
[00:57:16] It needs to be a different schedule. So, if you're not unionized, I would reach out to whoever else helps you with your bargaining and talk and look through Ed code or whatever and see if there is any loophole that you can go after that gives you a separate salary schedule, but I would tell you to have a conversation with your district about the fact that.
[00:57:37] Newly graduating SLPs are looking for that. And if they go to a website to take a job and they don't see it. They're probably going to move on to the next district. They may not even be making more money somewhere else, but they want to know that they're going to be acknowledged on their own schedule.
[00:57:51] And that is. That's huge in itself. 
[00:57:54] Carolyn Dolby: Linda just asked. She's also in California with you and in a union and she said, who told you guys that it wasn't supposed to be like that. 
[00:58:03] Julie Malone: CTA California Teachers Association. Okay. Yeah. And so again, you know, like you go after one thing and you're just chipping right and that's the long game.
[00:58:12] Always the long game. I'm going to do this today. How is that going to affect me down the road? And this is a perfect example of that. You didn't get what you wanted initially, but it came.
[00:58:23] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, Linda says thanks. Thank you. Of course. Thanks for the question. Yeah, Julie, I think I know that this was kind of a heavy topic.
[00:58:32] But man, I feel like you have given us so much. I love you've given us areas that that we know that we need to advocate for things that are really stood out was just that workload. I mean, the working conditions, it's learning conditions, things like that. I love what you shared with us. Just opening our eyes and actually empowering us that we have our rights.
[00:58:55] We do have rights and our rights 
[00:58:58] Julie Malone: of all people shouldn't. We have a voice. SLPs should have a voice , 
[00:59:02] Carolyn Dolby: right? We wear it on our shirts. . We need to be, we need to be walking the walk, not just talking the talk. Right? 
[00:59:10] Julie Malone: A hundred percent. 
[00:59:11] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, absolutely. 
[00:59:14] Julie Malone: Well, lemme add this part for me and say write speech language pathologist on your board.
[00:59:21] I do it. Say that again. Say, put your title. Put your title, your, your initials. And I have kids say, what does that mean? Oh, let me tell you what MS means. Look, look at the school. That had to happen because some of my kids don't even know the process. Right? And then I talk about my CCC and I tell 'em, you know, I worked really hard to get this and that's why it's on my board.
[00:59:42] 'cause I'm proud. I'm really proud of this 'cause I worked hard for it. And you know, whatever job you pick, I would encourage you too. Make sure you tell people what you do. You should be proud. 
[00:59:54] Carolyn Dolby: Loud and proud. I love it. Yes, we I right. We need to respect ourselves. Respect what we do. We need to be working at the top of our license.
[01:00:03] And the only way we can continue to do that is. If everybody understands what we do, we aren't a speechy we aren't just an extension. We are an entity that is is desperately needed and we, we provide a service that is unbelievable. I love it. 
[01:00:21] Julie Malone: We change lives and Sharon McLeod will tell you that communication is a human right.
[01:00:27] It's a human right. And this is what we provide. 
[01:00:31] Carolyn Dolby: You know what? Lisa chatler just said thank you for bringing Julie to inspire, motivate, and advocate for this profession. I agree. You are amazing. We are so lucky to have you, Julie. I really appreciate it. Everything that you brought to the to our table for us to take back with us.
[01:00:52] I feel more empowered. I hope everybody listening also feels empowered. I, I know that we're kind of towards the end and I hate it. I hate for it to end.
[01:01:02] I am so pleased. We are so happy. Thank you, Julie, again for all that you've done and your time that you've taken with us. This has been so informational. Oh, Abby, thank you. Yeah, you have lifted us up. I love it. I love it. 
[01:01:16] Julie Malone: Thank you. 
[01:01:17] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, I love it. All right, everyone.
[01:01:20] I love it. Thank you, Julie. Bye everyone.