School of Speech Ep 21
[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to the School of Speech podcast presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. School of Speech is designed specifically for the school based SLP to come together to discuss current topics, tackle difficult situations, and share our insights. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community that's Dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. 
[00:00:35] Carolyn Dolby: Hello, welcome everybody. I am Carolyn Dolby and I am your SpeechTherapyPD. com podcast host for School of Speech. And School of Speech is designed for all of us school based SLPs to come together. We're going to explore current trends, share our insights, and really champion our expertise. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community.
[00:01:01] Dedicated to the excellence in the school setting today's episode. Curricular Integration: A Time-Saving Strategy For School Based SLPs. And we have Dr. Christina Bradburn here with us today. She is going to be discussing how we can incorporate curricular materials into our therapy. It's benefit for enhancing student progress.
[00:01:24] She'll be giving us the when, where, and how to effectively integrate these. free resources and ultimately streamline our practices while boosting student outcomes. Now before we get started, I do have a little bit of housekeeping. Each of our episodes are 60 minutes long and will be offered for 0. 1 ASHA CE use.
[00:01:47] Okay Christina receives a salary from Shelbyville Central Schools as the assistant special education director. She is also a consultant for the Bureau of Education and Research, and research, and is receiving an honorarium for today's presentation. And For non financial, Christina currently serves as the coordinator for the ASHA 616 School Based Issues Coordinating Committee.
[00:02:10] For me, I receive a salary as the district level specialized support clinician for SICRE Independent School Districts. I'm compensated for my graduate courses that I teach for the University of Houston, and I'm a consultant for school districts across the nation supporting their program development and staff training.
[00:02:27] And I also receive compensation from special for nonfinancial, I'm a member of the Texas speech and hearing feeding and swallowing task force. I volunteer for feeding matters. And I'm also a member of ASHA special interest groups. I'm 13 swallowing and swallowing disorders. 14, Culture and Linguistic Diversity, and 16 with you, Christina, School Based Issues.
[00:02:47] But I want you guys to get to know Dr. Bradburn a little bit a little bit more before we get started. So currently, I think I said she's working as the Assistant Director of Special Education in Indiana. But from 2001 to 2022, she was a school based, in the trenches SLP with working with pre preschool through the 5th grade population.
[00:03:09] She's a national seminar leader for the Bureau of Education and Research, and she speaks on the topic of equity. Integrating speech and language interventions into classrooms and curriculum using a workload approach. She earned her doctoral degree in special education from Texas Women's University.
[00:03:29] That's where I got my master's. She's received her B. S. and M. S. in Communication Disorders from Indiana State University. And her research interests include school based interventions classroom teacher contributions to treatment effectiveness, and the impact of integrated, distributed practice techniques on speech and language process progress.
[00:03:54] If that's not enough, Christina also seeks to improve the experiences of SLPs in the school setting, and that is really evidenced by her recent appointment of as the coordinator of ASHA 616 Coordinating Committee, as well as her past service as the chair of ASHA's School Issue Advisory Board.
[00:04:18] And her participation in Asha's leadership development program, schools cohort, and as a member, as a mentor with Asha's leadership mentoring program. Welcome, Christina. Thank you very much. Great to be here. Thank you. Wow. We are so lucky to have you. You are just so exciting to have you here, but I'm so interested.
[00:04:40] I want to know your journey. What really led you? I think your research interest is so wonderful and just really, it's my cup of tea. I want to know what led you to your school based interventions and, and its impact on school language progress. 
[00:04:56] Christina Bradburn: I think I'll start with a short answer, and it's high caseloads.
[00:04:59] I had very high caseloads, and so I was always looking for something that, you know, would help me service all of my kids in a way that I thought would help make them make progress efficiently and then be able to move them along the continuum of services, right? You know, they start, maybe I see them intensely, and then they're on console, and then I can say, you know, You have everything you need to access your education on speech and language bias.
[00:05:22] But then after I started looking for those time saving strategies, but I was looking What I was seeing is that not only were they saving me time, but they were impacting their progress, not only in the classroom, but are in speech, but in the classroom as well. And so we started monitoring progress in for our kindergartners in their phonemic awareness.
[00:05:41] If they're in speech, where is it? They're not. So that that's the short answer. I think most of my early career. I was started as a preschool SLP that was integrated. 99 percent of the time. I never really left the preschool rooms because I had four different rooms I went to. And so then I left, did private practice for a little bit and then came back to a public school where pullout was the model.
[00:06:04] And after having been integrated for so long and then you know, being integrated into homes as a early intervention provider, and then going back into a school that had a caseload of 109 and every kid was pulled out in groups of six for 20 minutes, twice a week. And I, I saw progress, my idea of progress, it kind of just stalled and I also felt like I was like, hung a shingle outside my door and I was just a clinician working in a school versus, you know, what my actual charge was.
[00:06:31] So, I started looking there for ways to integrate and then The research, what led me to my research interest is because I was already doing it. So my research interest is using curriculum materials. Not does it have an impact on speech and language development. So here's the kicker. No matter what we use, the students will make progress.
[00:06:51] I can do therapy out of my purse, but because of my skill set, my students will make progress. What I was looking for was the positive educational impact of my services. So I wanted their grades to go up along with their speech services. I wanted their educational access. I wanted their You know, socialization on the playground to improve.
[00:07:06] I wanted their participation and specials to improve. I wanted their school life to improve because they received services. So, the curriculum materials research came because I started only using curriculum materials. I stopped buying things and making printing, laminating, spending hours and hours, making things that would either flop or work, but I could never use them again.
[00:07:26] So, you know, I was able to pre teach and re teach and, and do all of these things with all of these different materials that were provided to me for free. The research interest came from, I wanted to see if what I was seeing was actually true. Was it, you know, were, was using curriculum materials not only time saving and cheaper and made me feel more part of the school, but it actually improved educational access for the students.
[00:07:48] And so that's where, you A very long answer to your question is that's where it kind of started. 
[00:07:54] Carolyn Dolby: That's beautiful. I love it. i'm looking at our listeners we've got a lot of direct pull out which I think we kind of Expected and we do have some teletherapists here. So welcome And we do have some both.
[00:08:07] Pull out and some push into, but I think a lot of us are still kind of doing the direct because a lot of times that's kind of what we feel like is expected, which kind of makes me want to talk a little bit about because, like, Parents that go to a clinic is different than expected in the schools, right?
[00:08:27] You want to talk a little bit about, because we were sort of started to talk about that before we started. I want to get your take on that. 
[00:08:33] Christina Bradburn: Absolutely. So I don't know about you guys, but in graduate school, I didn't learn how to be a, I learned how to be an SLP, but not an SLP in a school. All of the pieces about making a schedule, you know, I learned about how to write an IE or what should be included in an IEP, but not how to write one, which I think is a big difference.
[00:08:48] And so, We also don't know that difference between the charge of a school based SLP and a clinic based SLP. A clinic based SLP can focus solely on enhancing and improving and perfecting speech and language skills. But in a school, that not only can't be my only focus, it really shouldn't be a focus.
[00:09:07] Because my sole reason for being an SLP in a school is to ensure that whatever speech and language disorder or delay that the students are presenting with, I either need to eliminate or minimize the educational impact of that speech and language disorder. I don't necessarily need to always enhance or improve.
[00:09:25] It typically comes along with it, the speech and language development, but my, my initial charge is to ensure however I can to eliminate that educational impact. And I want to point out that I'm saying educational impact and not academic impact. A lot of times administrators will push back and say, well, their grades are all A's.
[00:09:42] Why do they need to be in speech? If you're saying there needs to be a, you know, a negative educational impact next because education is way more than grades. It's, you know, going to specials. It's asking someone to prom. It's being comfortable trying out for a sport. It's, you know, all of that pragmatic language that's necessary to be a successful human is also necessary in this school.
[00:10:01] So, I'm really, the research also kind of helps me. Talk about my passion of we're not in a school. We're bleeding hearts, I think. And so we want to help everybody and we want everybody's speech to be perfect. And again, I'm from Indiana. It's the highest caseloads in the nation on average. And I think that's one of the reasons why we, we, we we don't think about, okay, Is there, does there continue to be a negative educational impact?
[00:10:25] There may have been when we first enrolled, but their speech doesn't necessarily have to be perfect in order not to be eligible for school based services anymore. And I, I know from experience, it's very hard to communicate to parents and communicate to administrators. And I, you know, I have some tips, making sure you talk about it at the initial eligibility meeting.
[00:10:44] The three things that make a student eligible for school based speech services, they have to demonstrate that delay or disorder. They have to show the negative educational impact of that disorder. And then they have to show the need for specially designed instruction, which would be us. We are the specially designed instruction piece.
[00:11:00] So I just talk about that from the very beginning. 
[00:11:02] Carolyn Dolby: I think you brought up those two prongs. I think sometimes as you're straight up right on saying about speech pathologists, we want to come in and fix it and we don't want to let go. And sometimes, yes, there, yes, there could be a disorder or a delay there.
[00:11:19] There might be an impact. It's only the. The supports from specially designed instruction from a speech path needed. 
[00:11:29] Christina Bradburn: And I'd say that's not our fault because no one told me how to answer those questions, you know, I, no one said, I know exactly how to say there's a delay or disorder. I can check that box of the three problems, but the second, even the second one, I didn't know how to demonstrate it, you know, how to professionally communicate with a parent as a new SLP, what a negative educational impact of a speech and language could be, and then also.
[00:11:52] What especially design instruction is and what it could be from someone else. Not an SLP. I wasn't I wasn't confident in my skills. So my, my caseloads are much higher as a younger SLP because I wasn't confident to be able to communicate that using curriculum materials, though, helped me be able to communicate both of those.
[00:12:10] Much easier because the second, that second and third prong, I, it's much easier for me to demonstrate a negative educational impact because if I take all of their curricular materials and I can't show anything that they can't do on any of the work that I use because of their speech and language delay, I can't demonstrate that negative or if they're, you know, playing on the playground and if they're ordering their lunch and if they're participating in specials, if I can't do that, then I can't check that box.
[00:12:35] And then the S. D. I. Part. If I'm watching a teacher do exactly what I'm doing and doing it well, then they don't need me. And I can document that because we're using the same things. We're using the same material. So I have a, it's continuous. The continuity between that allows that to happen. 
[00:12:50] Carolyn Dolby: I love it.
[00:12:51] And you know, we We use so many different terms and, and acronyms. We were talking about that earlier. So just so we're all on the same page and with terminology I'm thinking maybe defining for us what you mean by curricular materials. 
[00:13:05] Christina Bradburn: Absolutely. And I'll, I'll give you a list of some. I just talked to an SLP here in our district today about.
[00:13:10] So one of them was the what do you call it? The script from the play that the fourth graders are doing. Yeah. For the, for the the fall play. The script from that that the fourth graders are performing for parents is a curricular material along with the novel that they're reading in third grade Charlotte's Web.
[00:13:27] That's a curriculum material. Also, the math worksheet that has the, you know, the multiplication force for our student that's working on an R. That's a great curriculum material. Spelling lists are great. That's what's actually used in my, my intervention research. I use spelling lists. But it doesn't necessarily have to be something that's going to get a grade.
[00:13:47] So I never really used grades for my students to demonstrate the negative educational impact. It could be their inability to find someone to play with on the playground. To me, that's a curricular skill to work on because it's all part of school. It's educational access. So that's the thing I talk about.
[00:14:05] I'm not looking at making their grades better. I'm making sure that they can access their education, which includes recess, specials, lunch, the play, track, cross country, all of those types of things. So. 
[00:14:18] Carolyn Dolby: Wow. Yeah. And I think just having you getting our minds around that, that basically is, is answering those three prongs 
[00:14:31] Christina Bradburn: for real.
[00:14:32] Yeah, that was part of my write up of my research. Yeah, is that it was a, it was a pleasant surprise after my research and I was writing up the dissertation. Like, oh, I didn't even think that it answers all three prongs with the curricular materials. It makes it easier on a school based SLP to communicate it with parents.
[00:14:48] So it's, it's more easy. It's easier to implement research based interventions when the research is actually done in a school and has school SLP's in mind. So, yeah. 
[00:14:57] Carolyn Dolby: Absolutely. That's like a double whammy. Hey, you know, you're talking about, are you talking about grade specific materials? How do, I guess maybe, I know you, you're talking about that, but maybe talk to me about adapting the materials for what, how, for our use.
[00:15:17] Christina Bradburn: Sure. Well, I can, 
[00:15:18] In the, in our research, we actually use spelling lists. So what we wanted to do is to see every two weeks, the SLP would use two weeks worth of, you know, digital flashcards from a company that, you know, produces speech based flashcards. And she would use those for two weeks in an articulation drill.
[00:15:35] And then she would do two weeks with the spelling lists. And we alternated back and forth. And what we monitored were the students spelling grades. Throughout throughout. And so what we actually showed is their spelling grades improved on the weeks that she used the spelling lists and therapy. She didn't do spelling rules.
[00:15:49] She didn't work on spelling. She just used the actual spelling list and therapy. So to adapt a spelling list for a kiddo with an articulate, you know, you just look for their sound in there. Right. But if I don't have their sound or. For instance, sometimes people will say, oh, how do you get enough words?
[00:16:05] And to me, that's still a very clinic minded, we have to drill a hundred separate words, or we do have to drill one word a hundred times, as long as that one word that they're drilling is going to be used all week in class. To me, it's much more important to find a word that will be used over and over in class that week, on their spelling list or their vocabulary list.
[00:16:22] And so, say it's a word that has OR in it, and I only have one on their spelling list, and that's it. Okay, then I'd drill that word a hundred times versus finding a hundred O. R. words. So, that's one way I would adapt. In my mind, my mindset had to shift that if I get four good productions of this word that he's going to say all week versus four good productions of a word that he will never say again after he leaves my presence, that's what I was always, you know, pep talking myself.
[00:16:48] It's okay that there's only two words on the spelling list, or it's okay the vocab list only has two words. One thing that I can drill, he'll get that one thing and maybe he'll be successful in that in class when we leave and he'll generalize the one thing we did. Because we know generalization is the hardest part.
[00:17:03] The one thing we did will mean more to him than the, than the game we play that incorporates the language skill that he's having difficulty with. 
[00:17:10] Carolyn Dolby: Now I'm just kind of being cheeky, but I thought, yeah, like, first graders probably not going to use the word door, but we'll be using the word I was just saying door, as I was joking about in my head, thinking like how important it is to Using the spelling word and the words that they're actually going to be using.
[00:17:25] Christina Bradburn: Absolutely. 
[00:17:26] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, 
[00:17:26] Christina Bradburn: I actually have an example. So one of the flashcard sets I used to have was iron ore. O R E. That's one of the drill sets. But then I thought, how silly, how many times a day do they say O R, the word ore? You know, and so making sure, I know it's the same motor plan, but just making sure that they know they're, they're drilling that word because we use that word 50 times a day.
[00:17:44] 50, 000 times a day versus this one. They'll never ever say again. And don't even know what it is. So 
[00:17:50] Carolyn Dolby: that was exactly what was popping in my head is I'd be using words, you know, how much more impactful or meaningful for the child if it's actually words that they are utilizing. Right there. 
[00:18:03] Christina Bradburn: And a little bonus is you, if you use curricular materials, even if you do pull out, so I know there's a lot of and like I said, no matter who's doing the services or where they're doing them, if it's a skilled intervention, they're going to make progress.
[00:18:14] So I just talk about time saving and making life easier for SLPs and not against one or the other. But if you do pull out services a lot of times you might get a lot of pushback on when you can pull a student. So don't pull during language arts, don't pull during math, but if you're pulling the math materials that are in front of the student, and you're going to enhance their ability to access those materials through your skill set, I actually never had any pushback after I was there for a few years and using, once they realized I was taking the materials with me and they weren't going to miss content when they were with me.
[00:18:46] I didn't have any, any restrictions on what I could pull students. I pulled during language arts, reading block, math block, as long as I didn't pull during the Friday testing day. You know, Friday morning spelling tests and vocab tests, then they were pretty okay with anything. So that was just a, you know, a little side bonus of using the materials is there.
[00:19:03] They're realizing that it's a team effort and you're not pulling away from their content to teach something separate and then send them back that they have to catch them up. You know, you can read the same story. You can just target the skills that you need to target while they're out there. 
[00:19:17] Carolyn Dolby: Perfect.
[00:19:19] Right. Just a little added bonus, which kind of if one of the things we were talking about earlier well, you and I were about common challenges. I think that might lead into, you know, you're saying a benefit, but why don't we, what are some challenges in SLP? They're like, you know what? I want to start using curricular based materials, but what are some challenges?
[00:19:38] Do you think that they might you know, and so I'm just wondering if you have any questions that you want to come again, come up against and maybe give us some, how can we overcome them? 
[00:19:44] Christina Bradburn: I think the very first one I always get asked about is, is it, is it fun? Like, do the kids have fun? Are they still engaged?
[00:19:51] And I will tell you from moving away from any game based or any you know, any of the things I used to use that were very colorful and very, what I thought were engaging. I actually had increased engagement. So I, the nerd that I am, I went out and I looked, tried to find some research that would help me figure that out.
[00:20:07] And. There is something called the theory of competing resources. So, so many of our kids don't know how to play games, which is something we can teach them. But if we're working on subject verb agreement, or we're working on S blends or something, and they, we pull out a game to play that the theory of competing resources said, don't try to teach new things or two hard things at the same time, or they won't learn either of them.
[00:20:29] So a lot of times I was pulling a kid out to play bingo or, and, or inferencing bingo. That's a big one. As a kid on that kiddo on the spectrum, I was. We were playing inferencing bingo. However, you know, he, he didn't know how to play bingo. He hated to lose. He didn't know how to take turns. What I was really focusing on was, was teaching him how to play bingo.
[00:20:47] And I never actually got to the inference, my goal for working with that student. So if you pull a class novel that has full of inferencing that he's already read the chapter and you read, reread the chapter. Then you don't have to teach something new. You're not teaching new content, which is instruction and more interventionist, so you don't want to ever teach anything new.
[00:21:05] And it's not hard for him because he's already heard it. But if he's never played bingo, he hates to a student on the spectrum that I worked with hated to lose. He didn't like to take turns. He couldn't manipulate the markers. So I was teaching him to do four or five hard things along with the actual really hard thing, which was inferencing.
[00:21:22] So I think moving away from teaching new games and having to teach that you could focus way more on your goal. And then you can move them across the continuum of services even faster because you're focusing on the one thing you need to versus 10 or 15. And it's cheaper. So I can be fun with a spelling list.
[00:21:43] I mean, I, they seem to like me. So
[00:21:47] Carolyn Dolby: it's true. I don't, we don't, yeah, we don't have to have a game to be fun. We are fun, but okay. So I do just feeding, swallowing. And what made me think, what you made me think is what I tell my staff about if a child is not in a proper seating, they're spending on that little round little scene of competing resources.
[00:22:07] Yep. It's that I'm stealing it, using it for myself. I love it because they're spending their whole time trying to keep themselves upright that they don't have time to be really focused on the feeding task. So that was a huge aha for me. And I'm sure those listening are going to be like, OMG, me too.
[00:22:25] Because I didn't even think about that 
[00:22:28] Christina Bradburn: or even groups and groups. The theory of competing resources applies to behavior modification. So most of my services were individual. Not because I mean, they can learn from groups and I did groups when it was necessary. But a lot of times. For me, I was trying to do two hard things, which was behavior modification with a group of five boys and teach all of these skills to them.
[00:22:45] So I just, you know, kind of trying to break up as many groups as I could into individualized services. I can send you that citation later. It was kind of changed my whole SLP life honestly, when I read the theory of competing reasons, so, cause my whole life was that, 
[00:22:59] Carolyn Dolby: yeah, I need that. I want to, that, that has been yeah, that's one of my big takeaways just from right now.
[00:23:05] I love that. So let's sorry. I think I kind of, I got us derailed us for a hot second. Sorry. 
[00:23:10] Christina Bradburn: We already talked about the other challenge is not finding enough words or enough, you know, we've already talked about that one and how to overcome that one. So, 
[00:23:19] Carolyn Dolby: I liked what you said, that it's more important, even if it's just the one word on their spelling, and do that a hundred times because boy, they'll get that right in spelling, even though our intention is actually the verbal.
[00:23:29] But why not? I mean, who doesn't wanna do a double whammy? Benefits, 
[00:23:34] Christina Bradburn: but that's why we're here. It's not even a double. It's why we're there to, and, you know, eliminate that negative educational impact. So if they drill that word a hundred times, just because they may still say it wrong. Hopefully it'll improve if they hear auditory bombardment of it correctly.
[00:23:47] It'll improve their ability to spell it. So, we're enhanced. We're eliminating the negative educational impact of their speech and language disorder, even if they can't say it perfectly after just one session. So
[00:23:57] Carolyn Dolby: okay, 
[00:23:58] I'm going to make sure the SLP's in the back just heard that because you're mind blowing me right now.
[00:24:03] Our job and correct me if I got this wrong. Our job is to eliminate the negative in educational impact. So if you're using their spelling words, and you're using that for their artic, and although they might not say it actually, you know, precisely, perfected, perfected, but they're spelling it now is not negatively impacting their educational.
[00:24:28] Christina Bradburn: That's why we're there. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, it's nuts or minimize. I don't ever eliminate or minimize because there are times where they'll have to learn to compensate for word finding. Word finding will always be there. So one of my favorite stories is I was teaching a little girl who I knew word finding would always be difficult, but it impacted her behavior and her, her willingness to focus or to participate in class because she just had trouble finding the right word when she wanted it or just never had it.
[00:24:54] Like her vocabulary was also very low. And so I was trying to teach her what we do as adults. We'll say, Oh, You know, it's that thing with the thing that we talked about last week at dinner or, you know, we just make something up until somebody nice fills in the word. We don't actually know the word, but we're hoping somebody around us will fill it in.
[00:25:10] So that's one of the skills I teach kids with word finding. I don't teach them all the vocabulary in the world because it's very difficult for them. Their brain doesn't work that way, but I will teach them to say things like it's on the tip of my tongue. I might need your help. You know, it's that thing that has the thing, but talk around it because everybody is so nice.
[00:25:29] People, when I present and I pretend to do that, they will fill the word in from the audience. And it's just, it's a human nature kind of thing. So students will do that. For our students with word finding problems. If you teach them that compensatory strategy, one of my favorite stories is though I tried to teach the little girl to say it's on the tip of my tongue, but she kept saying it's on the tip of my teeth and she really couldn't get it right.
[00:25:50] So it's just one of my favorite stories is because she's so And she's trying to compensate for her work finding difficulties, but they still kind of sneak in there. 
[00:25:59] Carolyn Dolby: And your point being that giving her that strategy, because no, we can't give her every single vocabulary word she'll ever need. But you just minimized the negative impact by the fact that she is giving the strategy to the listener to help her out.
[00:26:15] Christina Bradburn: To fake it till you make it. I mean, that's what I call it for the kids. Fake it because I know you don't know it, but they don't have to know. You don't know it. That's my job to a point. If I know they can learn vocab, I do categories. I do all the different things, but once we, we may have IQ and we may have some other testing that shows this is going to be a difficult lifelong skill.
[00:26:34] I have to change. What skill I'm teaching so that it minimizes the negative educational impact for them, because she would get so embarrassed. She would act out so that she didn't look, you know, not smart. 
[00:26:46] Carolyn Dolby: So absolutely. I mean, right. Behavior is a form of communication and she was communicating. Well, the thing I'm thinking about is, okay.
[00:26:55] I mean, it sounds great. I mean, it really does. I'm not, I'm not, it sounds amazing, but my, my thought is how do we, how do we With teachers? How, that seems to me like a big is it big? Because to me it's big. 
[00:27:10] Christina Bradburn: I used to think it was. 
[00:27:12] Carolyn Dolby: Okay. 
[00:27:13] Christina Bradburn: I just came to the conclusion that I just, I learned that I am not going to be able to physically face to face collaborate with teachers as often as I would like to.
[00:27:22] So I tried to figure out some story strategies, right? So one of the things that I would highly suggest, if you want to use curriculum materials. In your services that you get your own access to them. My teachers would try really hard to remember to give me a copy of the reading for the week or the lesson plans.
[00:27:38] And really what it usually is, is a Google Drive. Like every grade level in my district has a Google Drive that has the entire curriculum loaded on it. And it has all the sub plans and I have what they're doing from day one of school to the last day of school, including recess duties. And so I get your own access.
[00:27:54] All I had to say is, can you guys share your drive with me? And so now I can click and I can tell the SLP working down the street. The second grade is reading the story next week and be great for the student. So, but it's all click, click, click. So, that collaborative piece isn't necessarily necessary.
[00:28:09] Then when you, when you start using the same materials, you develop that collaborative vocabulary. So. I can talk about how hard that story is or how author's purpose was repeated a hundred different times in this book, you know, this week or whatever, or the kids really didn't get my students really didn't get that.
[00:28:27] How did you work on that in class? So they'll much more willing to talk about and let you into their classroom if they know that you're going to enhance their teaching, but if they think that you're just gonna do speech therapy and take thirty minutes of their instruction away when you say you want to integrate, that's a whole different story.
[00:28:43] And so if you know the. Like I said, it doesn't matter what you use. You can do therapy out of your purse because it's the who, not the what. It's the who's doing the service or else we would have subs, right? SLP's could have subs if I could take a bunch of materials, hand them to a person and say, go through these worksheets with this student, but that's not allowed because the skill set that we have is unique and it's specialized.
[00:29:05] So it really doesn't my research was setting out to show it doesn't matter what we use. So why don't we just use the curricular materials to enhance their education? Because it really doesn't matter. So once they see that you're using what they're using, they're much more willing to ask you questions, tell you when the students do great things, like, oh, when he was reading out loud today from his reader, he used the best K.
[00:29:28] I mean, I got all kinds of things like that, but they're not as willing to correct students in the classroom if they don't know that they've already seen that material with you. So when they knew I was drilling the spelling list on Friday, the teachers were much more willing to correct students were saying the words wrong in class because they knew exactly which words I had drilled.
[00:29:48] So that collaborative piece was natural and it wasn't necessary to find time to do it. They would help me correct in class because they were confident that I had worked on that sound and it shouldn't have a negative impact mentally or, you know, socially on the student because they've already worked on it with me.
[00:30:05] Carolyn Dolby: And do you find what, what service delivery do you find that this works best with? 
[00:30:13] Christina Bradburn: You know, I would, because I was about a 90 to 95 percent integrated therapist where I did most of my services in educational setting outside of a speech room, and that doesn't necessarily mean in the classroom, but in the library on recess in the hallway, you know, that's where I spent most of my time.
[00:30:28] I would think people would expect me to say integrated, but really when I did have to do, you know, pull out services. It was, it was just as beneficial. Because it was pre made. I just had them bring out whatever was in front of them. And it was kind of cool to actually use My skill set to look at this piece of paper and say, Oh, I can pull their goal right out of that.
[00:30:49] Let's do this one sentence in this whole big, you know, sheet circle it. And it felt really good to use that skillset that I had developed to adapt those materials kind of on. And I would say on the fly, like it wasn't planned. I knew the topic cause I would read through and I knew what they were working on, but once it's right in front of me, it was really kind of fun to say, okay, it's like a detective work.
[00:31:08] What are we going to find in here? And. Sometimes it just didn't work. Sometimes it just didn't work. And so I always have carrier phrases like this. None of your spelling lists this week have a single word with your sound on it. So we're either going to make a nonsense words. We're going to delete syllables, which is a funny awareness skill.
[00:31:26] You know, we're going to delete the syllable and add this one in to make one of your words. Or we're going to use this carrier phrase that has one of your sounds in it, or one of your language goals, and then plug the word in at the end. So, it's not perfect, but neither are the materials I spent lots of money on.
[00:31:43] You know, right? I mean, I always had to adapt those as well, because they're not individualized. For my students' goals, they are general deficits, right? They work on grammar, they work on whatever the general deficit is. That book that I purchased. And it was great 'cause I had some starters, right?
[00:31:59] I, I was so excited to have some ideas from these. And I'm not knocking their materials because they work again. It's not the what, it's the who. It's, and they're great. Some of 'em are really good. Again, not knocking the, the traditional commercial therapy materials. What I'm saying is if we're there for the positive educational impact of our services, that's where the curriculum materials are superior, not because they help their speech and language skills one or the other.
[00:32:25] I will say, a surprise of my research though. When she used the spelling list in therapy during the alternating treatment design, their speech sound production their percentage of speech sounds correct also went up during the spelling list week. And yeah, it, it was better during the spelling list week.
[00:32:40] And we kind of, you know, you have to write it all up. And we, when we wrote it up, we, we talked about, it was because the teachers weren't willing to correct them those weeks. So, yeah. 
[00:32:49] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, wow. So you got I'm trying to think of what I would call that. The, oh, it's on the tip of my tooth. 
[00:32:58] Christina Bradburn: There you go, it's on the tip.
[00:32:59] Yeah, and it actually went against my hypothesis, so it kind of, you know, messed up my research, but, because I said, their spelling grades would go up when we use spelling lists, but their speech sound production would be similar on both weeks, on both sets, because it's not the what, it's the who. However, I forgot about the the collaborative efforts and the and the generalization piece of using the spelling list.
[00:33:22] So yeah, kind of messed it up, 
[00:33:25] Carolyn Dolby: but hey, but I'm sorry, but it was still positive outcome. So that's a win. Sure. Yeah. Win, win, win. I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking about goals. Can we kind of maybe talk about I mean, I know you can't just give us a bank of goals and that wouldn't be individualized, but do you want to give us some, how do we write those measurable and authentic goals that are going to be targeting but using it through the lens of the curriculum?
[00:33:51] Christina Bradburn: Right. And I think that's a great way to put it. So, If they're eligible for speech and language services in a school, we're saying there is a negative educational impact somewhere. So the first thing I would do is I would set aside the standardized speech and language assessment that I had done.
[00:34:05] I'd set it aside because I used to pick my goals from the deficits there. So I would, you know, if the castle showed me that they had deficits in this, this and this, I would pick from that idea of deficit. But actually, I completely set those aside. And when I'm writing goals, I go and I talk to the teacher about their initial reason for their referral is typically the goal that I would the initial reason like they don't participate in class or they.
[00:34:31] You know, she just won't talk in class and it's because she's, you know, her standard score on the, on the Goldman Frisco was a 45, you know, or something like that. So, of course, she doesn't feel comfortable or she won't answer questions from the paraprofessional during testing a lot of times. So, it may go against some of the developmental norms, but sometimes, for instance, a goal for a kindergartner who has a severe speech.
[00:34:55] Disorder who can't make any sounds, you know, work on isolation and on all of these different sounds. One of their goals would be to say all the letters and sounds of the alphabet clearly enough so that when they're assessed, they're not docked because they can't, they don't know the letters. They know the letters, but because they say A, b, e, e, ED, they are, their negative educational impact is right there.
[00:35:19] So I will work on them recognizing that they don't say c. And just work on making it as close and approximate as we can until they can say their ABC's clearly enough to pass the screeners because we don't want them to go into title or to tier one, tier two academic interventions if it's just because their speech isn't clear enough for someone to understand.
[00:35:41] Yeah, so the goals are really focused on that negative educational impact. So, also, if they can't say the sounds correctly isolated, 1st goal. I don't try to put. An F in initial position of words for a first grader. I make sure they can say every sound of the alphabet clearly enough so that someone that's assessing them will know what they're saying.
[00:36:00] So they don't dock them and mark it wrong. So they don't get moved into academic interventions that they don't need. That's the negative educational impact of their articulation delay, right? Is that they, no one understands them, so they can't show what they know. 
[00:36:12] So the goals are very focused on where they're struggling in, in school.
[00:36:19] And it's also so you can write a measurable goal, you know, they will name all 26 letters of the alphabet with approximated enough so that they can get 26 out of 26 correct on their, you know, that's something like that. But also making sure that we're saying that. What, what we're using. So using the classroom reader, you know, if they're, I want them to talk about subject verb agreement or use correct subject verb agreement when they are retelling a story from their class reader from the class story of that week, because that, first of all, will give me the material I'll use for my progress check.
[00:36:53] The material used for my intervention and the product and it's the same material the teachers using for the progress check and intervention. So the kid can see the why behind why he's with me because not only do they see improvement with their goal, but they also see improvement on the assessment that the teacher is giving them later.
[00:37:11] Carolyn Dolby: And maybe the the answer of what do you do in speech? Play games? Absolutely. And I, right, 
[00:37:18] Christina Bradburn: we play, we play Uno. We, you know, what's your goal? Because my principle of the walk around, one of our evaluations was based on the fact that our students state their goals when asked by our evaluator, our administrator.
[00:37:30] Like if an administrator asked the student, not me, what they were working on, if they could tell them then that was part of the eval, which I thought was cool. 
[00:37:37] And so, you know, when they would say, what do you think they're doing in speech, and they would say, you know, playing games or, you know, that was, that was one of the reasons I started moving into the curriculum to show the students the why of why they're with me.
[00:37:51] Carolyn Dolby: Right. And it's just as important for the student to know why. 
[00:37:54] Christina Bradburn: Absolutely. 
[00:37:57] Carolyn Dolby: For the teacher to know why, the parent to know why, but the teacher, but for a child to know why other than it's just fun to go down there, you know, I'm getting out of class. 
[00:38:06] Christina Bradburn: Well, we are fun too. I mean, we are, we are a great reinforcer and, but we can be that same.
[00:38:14] reinforcer in the classroom. We can be that same positive you know, impact, mental health impact. We can just be that same positive impact on them, no matter where we work with them. It doesn't necessarily have to be when they come down to it. So 
[00:38:25] Carolyn Dolby: I would love to, to talk about, so, cause we've kind of been talking about like direct taking them out.
[00:38:31] Can we like move it now into more of like, paint me a picture, a word picture, if you will, of what that would look like pushing in. 
[00:38:40] Christina Bradburn: Oh, yeah. So I think my favorite example to use most of you on here probably know what barrier games are as an SLP, where you put a barrier up between you and the student and you draw a picture and then you tell them what to draw and see if they can use their receptive language skills.
[00:38:54] To follow along and then you move the barrier and they're like, Oh, it doesn't look anything like you said, or you tell them to tell you what to draw and they've drawn a dog and you end up with a box. So, you know, that's where you can the barrier for me was vanilla holders, you know, in therapy. So I would do one on one or small groups and we would put these barriers up and I'm like, okay, we're gonna play a barrier game, use your good skills, use your full sentences, make sure you use descriptors and prepositions to tell me where to draw the different things.
[00:39:20] So when I talk about integrated services. I don't do anything different. I still play barrier games. It's just I do it on a bigger scale. So, and I use whatever topic they're talking about. So for instance, I would go into a first grade classroom and they're, they're talking about body parts and the five senses, you know, and so I'll, I'll have drawn a body, a big giant one, and all of the kids turn around away from me, making the barrier.
[00:39:45] Someone holds up the picture and every kid in the classroom tells me what to draw. And so I draw it on the white board behind all the kids turn around. It's terrible. You know, there's no head, there's no neck, there's no nose. And first of all, I can see, am I holding my speech and language students to a higher standard just because the castle says they should be able to do this, but no first grader can do this.
[00:40:04] So that's one of the benefits of being in the classroom is that nobody could do. What I was asking them to do to tell me where to draw things. And so I'm holding them to a higher standard educationally than what the castle says at this point they should be doing. So, again, those standardized tests sometimes don't tell us a lot.
[00:40:21] Then the best part about it though, is since I know what I'm going to be doing in there, I can pull some of my. my more difficult kids that have the more you know, the difficulty with lots of different things. And I can pull it out and pre teach. And I'll just say, Hey, Peyton, when you hear me say the word face, you say the word nose, and you're going to be right.
[00:40:41] And we're going to practice that over and over. And you're going to get to show off some skills in class that your teacher will not have any idea. And I'm practicing with them one on one. So pre teach. And then the actual teaching happens in the classroom. And then later, if some of my students really don't do very well, I know what to re teach later.
[00:40:57] So a 45 minute integrated lesson could be 15 minutes of three, five minute individual drills with specific kids, a 20 minute in class lesson. And then whatever time is left, 15, 10 minutes to five minute individual sessions with kids that really bombed the in class lesson. So it doesn't have to be in the room the whole time.
[00:41:16] And as long as you're still teaching. What that's the teacher had planned on teaching during that time, right? The five senses it's writing time, it's language arts or whatever. And as long as you're still keeping that in the back of your head, it's just your therapy that you would do in your speech room, but on a bigger scale.
[00:41:32] And you, you have 25 other kids, but you typically ignore all but the five that are yours. They don't know that you don't, you know, they don't realize you're not calling on them. You know, if they don't realize that you're not coaching them. But they're still getting the benefit of a skilled highly skilled interventionist who knows how to break things down for everybody in a different way.
[00:41:50] They're getting the benefit is that as well. 
[00:41:52] Carolyn Dolby: And I know when I've talked with other clinicians that are really gung ho on the, on the integrated service model is the benefit of the teacher, then seeing how they can better yes, teach their, you know, their content. 
[00:42:08] Christina Bradburn: Well, I talk, I call it the yellow ball story.
[00:42:11] So I always carry a yellow tennis ball anywhere I go when I'm co teaching or. Integrated because I always hold it over the kid that's talking or hold it over my head when I'm talking to get the eye gaze that I need. And so there's teachers that carry them in their pocket and hold it over their head now and hold it over the student's head that's talking to get the visual attention.
[00:42:28] You know, but I never coached a teacher to do that. I never, but they saw it work and they're like, I want to do that. 
[00:42:35] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, I love I love stealing things from other people that I see work. I'm Fine, I might give you credit. I might not because it's fantastic 
[00:42:45] Christina Bradburn: But nothing's new so i'm sure we've seen somebody do it.
[00:42:47] Carolyn Dolby: Right, right, right um things that i've just you have said that I that have made an impact on me is that really that our our role i'm just Saying that our role is to Minimize, maybe eliminate, but minimize the negative effect. I, that, that's been, I love that we've talked about that. I love, I want and then I want to talk a little bit about more about goals because you said something and I want to make sure I heard it right.
[00:43:14] Cause I think this might be a wow for more than just me is when you said I'm not, I'm not pointing my finger, but what I think I heard was, Was that? Yeah, you you don't have to take your goals just from those deficits from that standardized assessment. Well, here's where we need maybe a little bit of guidance of because when we are taking the the data of our assessment, when we're taking the results of our assessment, and we are writing up that present level you know, that it's going to go into their we call it their IEP.
[00:43:46] And we say that something is a deficit, at least where I'm from, we have to then have a goal to address that deficit. So help me understand how if that we might broaden that. 
[00:44:00] Christina Bradburn: Absolutely. So, yes, I think we're talking about two different things, determining eligibility and writing goals. So I do use the standardized assessments and everything I'm supposed to write to determine eligibility for services.
[00:44:14] Once I get that and I've written the report and I say based on, you know, their age and their, you know, whatever, they should be doing this, but they have these deficits that along with the negative educational impact, I've talked about that and their need for SDI, they are eligible for services. But then when I write the deficits in the present levels of the IEP, so those are separate for us, right?
[00:44:34] So the the, the evaluation report is over here and then the present levels. I don't talk about those deficits from the castle. I talk about the deficits in the classroom so that I can write goals because I don't care. Honestly, I don't care if they don't have subject. I just keep saying that if they don't can't use irregular plurals, right?
[00:44:53] I don't care necessarily about that unless I can show a reason in the classroom that they need to work on that. And the nine times out of 10, I can't find a reason to work on that necessary in the classroom. But if they can't, you know, use more than two words at a time. And that doesn't really measured in our test, right?
[00:45:11] But if they can't use more than two words at a time, their sentence length when they write is low. They can't use adjectives. They don't use subject verb agreement because they say she run instead of she is running, you know, all of that kind of thing. So I'll talk about when they're writing their their inability to use more than two words at a time.
[00:45:29] Verbally is impacting their ability to write. Detailed descriptions of pictures as they need to be doing by the third grade. So I always connect it. We have to in Indiana. I'm sure you guys do have to connect any of our goals to state standards for education. And I used to struggle with that because I'm like, I don't know what to connect this goal to.
[00:45:49] I don't know how to connect this goal that I have picked from the standardized assessment to the, you know, the, the standards from third grade language arts. And when I kind of shifted my mindset over to, well, how is this deficit in this impacting them in the classroom? Because a lot of times I threw, 50 percent of them out because it really isn't.
[00:46:08] I mean, it really isn't having that impact on them. The teacher would not even have pulled that out. I always go back to the initial referral from the teacher as to why they're referring the student in the first place. And a lot of times it's sentence link. They only use two words at a time. They can't follow multi step directions.
[00:46:24] The standardized assessment tells us why they're not doing that, right, that they don't have this, this, this, and this, but you can still write the goal from that initial teacher classroom referral of can't follow two step directions, and then work on all of those things as their short term objectives or just your strategies, right?
[00:46:40] But the goal, the goal has to be whatever is impacting them in the classroom. So that's how I separate kind of, I think, what you're asking. 
[00:46:49] Carolyn Dolby: No, that's exactly areas. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly what I wanted. Some clarification on is that? Yes, we are using those standard assessments in our informal.
[00:46:57] We're doing our to establish eligibility. Right? And we're not just taking. What the deficit was from that test. We're yes, they're eligible. So now, no, I mean, I'm changing when I'm learning. I'm doing when, you know, better, you do better and better. And so I'm thinking how, rather than being like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to have 15 goals because... 
[00:47:22] Christina Bradburn: ...you could have 50 if you use the cast, you know, right.
[00:47:26] Carolyn Dolby: We I think we get bogged down. Oh, my gosh, this we have thing. You know, we have they're never going to get out of the speech because we have so many things to work on. But I think what I'm hearing and I'm hoping everybody's getting this that really, yes, they're eligible. But let's look where the actual impact is.
[00:47:44] And that's what we are to be working on 
[00:47:47] Christina Bradburn: and typically that that pares it down to about one, two or three goals. I mean, I rarely had more than two goals for a student when I really looked at. What do we need to focus on this year to improve their ability to access third grade in general, third grade, second grade, fifth grade?
[00:48:04] I mean, really, if you really come at it, that mindset and you don't get as I used to get so overwhelmed, they would be like a 50 standard score, 50, 50, 50, right? And I'm like, well, what do you work on? Well, you work on from the initial referral, whatever the teacher said that they couldn't do. And you work on it, but you can use those deficit skills and you can target them.
[00:48:24] But really, what you're focused on is how can I get them to not do that anymore in class? What do I need to teach them so that they do do this better? And it's a lot easier to write goals that way and not cry. I used to cry. 
[00:48:38] Carolyn Dolby: There's no crying and speech. All right. It's made myself crack up. Sorry about that.
[00:48:44] Excuse me. Oh, oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I think if anything, we're walking away with yeah, let's get, let's make sure our goals are directly the impact. And then I like the idea that, yeah, all that other stuff we will be working on, but we don't need to be taking data on every little thing. We really need to see the big picture of impact.
[00:49:06] And that's where we need to, that's where our lens needs to be, really. Okay. 
[00:49:12] Christina Bradburn: I mean, not to open up a whole new can of worms with like eight minutes left, but the data part used to drive me crazy too. The plus minus for this and the plus minus for this. How do you judge, you know, so I completely, when I was integrated, I was able to change the way I looked at data collection and you know, every three weeks I would pull away all supports and I would do plus minus, you know, what's this, what's this, describe this picture, plus minus, did they get it?
[00:49:35] And every three weeks is the only time I kept plus minus data. I could still bill Medicaid because the other times. What I was keeping track of is how much scaffolding support they needed, what supports, what interventions they needed in order to be about 90 to 95 percent accurate. So how much did I have to do?
[00:49:52] How much did I have to give them? Did I have to touch their throat? Did I have to touch my throat? Did I have to show them Legos for the three words that I wanted? What did I have to do to get 90 percent accuracy toward their goal? Because I was trying to avoid all of that negative practice. Of what's this?
[00:50:07] Oh, no, it's not that it's this. You know, I don't let him say it unless I feel like they're so being integrated allowed me to see that teachers don't do that. They don't give them a plus minus in the gradebook. Every time they spell a word wrong. The only time they give them a great is after they test them specifically on Fridays for spelling.
[00:50:25] So SLP is if we're going to work in schools, we can look at our services that way. Teachers teach and then they test and what we're doing all the time. Plus minusing them to death is we're testing all day long. And we're running ourselves into the ground. And so if we're going to be in a school setting, we can allow ourselves some room to teach and keep data because you have to build Medicaid.
[00:50:45] I understand that. Keep data on their performance. But you can keep data on what you did to get that performance and have that data. And then every three weeks test them to see. And I say three weeks because we do nine weeks report cards a year. So it's just much easier. Teachers do it every week. But we, we run ourselves into the ground trying to keep to test our kids every time they sit with us.
[00:51:05] But because I'm integrated that was impossible to do, A, because there's five kids and I'm teaching them in a group setting. I even tried to put Avery labels on my legs for each kid and plus minus as I was walking around the room. Yeah. We've all done weird stuff. 
[00:51:19] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:51:20] Christina Bradburn: But now I, you know, it's a whole different ballgame.
[00:51:25] Carolyn Dolby: And I want to, when, before we started, we kind of, we were talking and you said that you had a caseload of 109 and I'm pretty sure that some of those listeners out there are like, I have that. What can I do? What did you do? 
[00:51:41] Christina Bradburn: Well, and I like that story. So when I took over the caseload in this elementary school, it was pre K through five that had a self contained one self contained classroom and one preschool and it was 109 on the caseload and I think there was just some, you know, they had not necessarily moved across the continuum of services because they were the perfect speech was the goal, right?
[00:52:01] And so the educational impact wasn't the focus. So when I left that school, about 10 years later, the caseload for the next school year was starting at 45. So, it took several years to get it down, but that was a combination of integrated services going in and seeing where the deficit areas were and working with the teachers being very up front with parents.
[00:52:21] At the very beginning. Once they get here, we will. We will have to dismiss because they're no longer eligible for school based services. Once we can no longer show a negative educational impact. Once we can no longer show the need for me. We will start talking about dismissal. Make sure they understand that they signed the IEP.
[00:52:38] So I was really talking that up. Way ahead of time, but I honestly think the biggest change and I know opening a whole another can of worms, but it's using a three to one model, like a flexible service delivery model so that. Three weeks of direct services with and then that one week of indirect. A lot of that time was spent observing in the classroom and not working directly with the kids and and and writing really good reports and doing really good testing so that I had what I needed to be able to dismiss when needed.
[00:53:06] When I could observe a student and say, you know what? I watched them. In five minutes of every class period today, or, you know, because I had some flexibility on that one week, three to one, the one week and I, you know, they never did anything that they used to do, you know, everything they could access all of their education that participated, the teachers didn't correct anything they said, you know, they weren't perfect on their arm, but I think they're ready to be done with school based services.
[00:53:30] You know, I have that data. So, and that ability to move them across the continuum of services from initial eligibility to consult to, you know, all the way through to dismissal was easier once I started using some flexible service delivery and some integrated approaches to services because I got to see them in their natural habitat.
[00:53:50] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, right. Yeah. 
[00:53:51] Christina Bradburn: Like, I got to see them in the wild. I got to see them in the, the wild, which was their classroom. Versus with me, because they were always so much better with me, 
[00:53:59] Carolyn Dolby: That's across the board. They're, they're doing it in the, in the speech room, but they're not doing it in the classroom.
[00:54:04] And so then, then we have them forever. 
[00:54:07] Christina Bradburn: We do. And that's why the caseload had expanded to 109. Right. And even then seeing me in the classroom made them do it better in the classroom because they didn't want to mess up in front of me. Oh, that's the lady that makes me say it this way. I better say it this way.
[00:54:20] Okay. You know, I was okay with that. And then the generalization happened then in the caseload. More than half after a long time. It doesn't happen overnight. I want to make sure everybody writes that down It takes a while but it you know, it did get better so 
[00:54:36] Carolyn Dolby: no, but I think that that that we do need to hear that because our caseloads are just Ridiculous.
[00:54:42] Christina Bradburn: They are 
[00:54:43] Carolyn Dolby: Because I I think we really do need to hone in more of School based therapy and I, you, the way you're saying that is that when you said they no longer need school based therapy, like, that's a fair statement. We need to be saying it like that. And I know those listening to project. Yes, I do that.
[00:55:03] But I'm, I'm thinking for myself, I need to do better at just certain things that I think would make it easier when Getting towards dismissal. 
[00:55:10] Christina Bradburn: And the parent pushback is a thing. I don't know everybody. It is a thing. But if you start it from the beginning, it's that pre education of what those three prongs are.
[00:55:19] It's an it's listed in every single one of my IPS in the note section. It actually has checkmarks by it. And every year I go physically through the IEP and I put a physical checkmark and I'll say once we can't check all three, just, you know, giving you a heads up once we can't check all three of those, we've talked about this, they are no longer and they really don't, I mean, I don't want to say they can't argue, but they really have been informed all the way through.
[00:55:39] It's not a surprise, right? When they come to their sixth grade meeting. That they're not eligible anymore. I don't want to surprise them. I want to educate them all 
[00:55:47] Carolyn Dolby: right. And also this is also another I think a little value added of this episode. Thank you so much. Christina is when you gave us a really good explanation and supporting evidence of why a 3 1 or a flexible model really is where we need to be is when you said that.
[00:56:06] If we're doing the three, three, one, three, we're teaching, reteaching, we're doing the skill. It's the direct or the pull push in whatever, but then that one week we can really prove that we are assessments are more robust. Our data collection is really authentic because we're seeing them, as you said, in the wild.
[00:56:27] I love that. I love that. And again, if that again, data, data, data, and when we can show. How else are we going to see that generalization? Because if we just ask the teacher, oh, are they doing it? They're going to be like, no, wait, I say, yes. They're going to say, no, they're not. Right. Always. I got no. Yeah.
[00:56:47] Always. And quick, a quick no, you know? And so we're not having, it's giving us the time to really see it. And, and Bring it, bringing it to the teacher's attention because nothing is worse also is when we're trying, trying, when we are presenting everything it in that meeting and we're, we're getting, we prepping the student, the family, everything that dismissal.
[00:57:13] And then all of a sudden the teacher says, Oh, no, I, I don't agree. 
[00:57:17] Christina Bradburn: Yeah, 100%, that happened to me. And so I also, it's the same reasoning behind the education all the way through about what it means to be at the difference between a school based and a clinic based SLP. 
[00:57:27] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Okay. I just want to make sure that did we get, I can't believe our, we've, I doesn't feel like the time has gone.
[00:57:37] Christina Bradburn: I think we hit our learning objectives. I think, I think we took those off, but yes, if we need to. 
[00:57:42] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. No, I didn't. Yeah. We talked about how to adapt the material. I loved, I loved all your how to overcome those challenges. Fantastic. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm wondering if we have, I, I don't think we have anything.
[00:57:55] Oh no, I didn't, I did take some notes. This isn't a question. We didn't do it, but I wanted just, there's, here's some of my takeaways that I got from you. It's who's doing the service, not what. So it's not what the service is, but who is when we, that's that prong is they might still need the what, but it's who needs to be doing it.
[00:58:18] I think all of us need to keep hearing that. I know some of us are like, I know, I know, but I do think we do need to really look at that. It's more important. It's the who that has to be doing it because if right, if the parent can be doing it. Or the teacher, then that's not us. 
[00:58:36] Christina Bradburn: Like I always say, I didn't go to graduate school to teach a kid to bite their lip and blow.
[00:58:39] I mean, yeah, to make an F, yeah. 
[00:58:44] Carolyn Dolby: That was my huge takeaway. Another huge takeaway that I, I'm really bringing back to my district is when, when we are to really separate the eligibility criteria when you're doing your FIE or your full, your eval versus Then when you're doing your present levels, that's what that's a huge one for me, 
[00:59:07] Christina Bradburn: and that's the meat of the difference between a clinic based SLP and a school based.
[00:59:11] I think that's the, the way you can show it, like, with an artifact, those 2 documents are the difference between us. Yeah, 
[00:59:18] Carolyn Dolby: boom. I mean, mic drop, Christina, and the last one is that theory of competing resources. All right, people, theory of competing resources, the reason why maybe not doing that game or that game is impeding progress.
[00:59:36] That example you gave with a neurodivergent child that is more focused on making sure that they get, right, that they get it. So you get the game right or the rules of the game versus really what we're needing to work on. I learned a lot. This has been amazing. It's been fun. Yeah, I know it is fun.
[00:59:56] School of speech is fun. But I want to say thank you everyone for coming and listening. And Christina, thank you so much. I can't wait to have you back because we've already talked about it. And so you said yes. So I'm holding you to it. You've already said. 
[01:00:08] Christina Bradburn: All right. 
[01:00:08] Carolyn Dolby: All right. Thanks everyone. Bye guys. 
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