School of Speech Ep 25
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[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to the School of Speech podcast presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. School of Speech is designed specifically for the school based SLP to come together to discuss current topics, tackle difficult situations, and share our insights. Our goal is to bolster confidence, celebrate our triumphs, and foster a community that's Dedicated to the excellence in the school setting. 

[00:01:30] Carolyn Dolby: Hello, everyone. My name is Carolyn Dolby, and I am your Speech Therapy PD podcast host for School of Speech. School of Speech is designed for the school based SLP to come together. We're going to explore current trends, share insights, and champion our expertise. Our goal is to bolster confidence, Celebrate our triumphs and really foster that community dedicated to the excellence in the school setting super excited for today's episode transformative strategies for neurodiversity affirming IEPs.

[00:02:02] Chris Wenger will be taking us on this journey where we will explore key strategies that are going to help us shift towards neuro affirming. IEPs. We hope that you lead today. Equipped with practical strategies to create inclusive and effective IEPs that honor each autistic student's unique strengths and needs.

[00:02:24] Our aim is to provide all of us U. S. speech pathologists, school based clinicians with the tools to foster supporting and empowering learning environments to ensure that students thrive in their educational journeys. A little housekeeping. I'm going to go through our disclosures. Chris receives a salary as the lead SLP at Chafee Union High School.

[00:02:47] He also receives compensation from Boom Learning, Teachers Pay Teachers, the Dynamic Assessment of Social Emotional Learning, and the Neurodiversity Affirming Activity Book. Chris is also receiving an honorarium from Speech Therapy PD for his participation today. For me, I receive a salary as the district level dysphagia support clinician for CyFair Independent School District.

[00:03:11] I'm compensated for my graduate courses I teach at the University of Houston, and I'm a consultant for school districts across the nation supporting their program development and staff training. I also receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD. com to host this podcast. Non disclosure, I am a member of the TISHA, which is the Texas Speech and Hearing Feeding and Social Services.

[00:03:34] feeding and swallowing task force. I volunteer for free feeding matters and I'm a member of ASHA special interest groups 13 swallowing and swallowing disorders as well as SIG 16 school based issues. So excited to have Chris Wenger with us because he is an enthusiastic school based SLP. He's the creator of the dynamic assessment of social emotional learning and I know And the Neurodiversity Affirming Activity book.

[00:04:04] He is internationally acclaimed presenter, who loves to share the most current trends with our older autistic students. He's a prominent thought he's a prominent thought leader in the field of speech pathology. And he's really known on his social media as the speech dude. If you have not looked at speech dude up, I feel sorry for you.

[00:04:28] After this podcast, you go right to social media. You go to speech dude. He's amazing. Chris motivates and he entertains fellow educators and clinicians, clinicians through his humorous and inspiring posts and videos. Welcome Chris. Yay. 

[00:04:46] Chris Wenger: Hey, thank you so much for having me. That was a, an amazing introduction.

[00:04:50] I need to bring you out here to Los Angeles so I could so when you when I go to work, you can introduce me to the, my colleagues 'cause they have no clue what I do. . 

[00:04:59] Carolyn Dolby: I would love it. I just bring before you come I'll just, yeah. Pave the way. That would be hilarious. I love it. 

[00:05:05] Chris Wenger: That would be great. It's so funny 'cause working in the schools as a speech pathologist, there are so many.

[00:05:13] People within the campus in different roles. A lot of times they have no clue what the speech therapist does. They're just like, hey, you're still here at the school and you're subbing. Right? I'm like, no, I'm not a substitute. I'm the speech therapist here on campus. But but it's fun because we'll kind of dive into.

[00:05:32] It is the sad truth, but I like to get out there and to connect and really and we'll talk about that as, as we go through the show, but getting, getting all stakeholders on board. So that way we're all coming in and helping our, our students with disabilities and how we can best meet their needs.

[00:05:49] Carolyn Dolby: Right on. Do you want to get the party started by telling us a little bit about your background and your journey? How, how you got here, Chris? 

[00:05:58] Chris Wenger: How did I get here right here? Yeah, it has been regarding my educational journey. I came from a background of parents who are, were in education. My mom was on the administrative side.

[00:06:10] My dad was a PE teacher and adaptive PE teacher. So, you know, my upbringing had been. From my dad always saying, Hey, you know, the person that wins the race is the one who, who, who helps others. And that will always be you know, the, the way to live your life, you know, serving others, helping others doing the best you can.

[00:06:34] Help those who need the most help and, and, and, and life will be great. So he kind of persuaded me to get into working in special education. So after high school, I went and got a master's degree in mild, moderate disabilities and, and was a teacher for a couple of years. And so that really was a great foundation for me at the beginning because I worked with.

[00:06:58] More students in a classroom I had I had like, 22 students squeezed in this small little classroom and I got familiar with writing. So I was able to get that perspective of what it was like from the teacher's end. And then. At some of those meetings, the speech therapist would show up you know, as one of the providers and the parents every time we're so appreciative to this guy.

[00:07:24] They were like, hey, you know what? We're just so thankful that you're helping our child communicate and make friends and, you know, do better with their speech and language development. And. That went positive. Then they would turn to me and say, okay, about about giving my child a D. I have some things that I want to speak to you about, sir.

[00:07:44] And I was like, I don't like this role. I want to switch to to the speech role. No, I joke around, but I really did want to work with smaller groups to make an impact on how I can bring students together to connect and foster genuine relationships. And authentic connections as well as, you know, helping build those language skills that were necessary.

[00:08:06] So I went back to school and and then the rest is history. I yeah, I haven't I haven't looked back on it once. I always knew that if I stepped forward to. Get into the role of being an SLP. And if it didn't work out, I could always fall back on getting back into the classroom with my teaching credential, but you know what, everything has just been such a, a great experience from, from what, from all angles.

[00:08:32] I worked in private practice as a supervisor at a pediatric clinic. I was on the board for California for our speech and hearing association. 

[00:08:42] Yeah. Which is really cool because. I was the director for the largest county in the state. Actually, it's the largest county in the nation, San Bernardino county.

[00:08:50] So, it was San Bernardino and Riverside counties, but that's at the board meetings. I had established connections with. Other individuals that were all about advocating for our field and 1 of them was a director from Los Angeles. So I lived in a different and she is now my. Fiance and we have several children together.

[00:09:11] So that's where I met her. I met her at, at you know, over the course of being at board meetings at the state level. And so now that's our pillow talk. Like, 

[00:09:19] Carolyn Dolby: I love it 

[00:09:20] Chris Wenger: before I go to bed. I'm like, Hey, I have a question. So I have this parent that was concerned with their child's speech and blah, blah, blah.

[00:09:27] And so, yeah, our, our life is just all about speech therapy. 

[00:09:32] Carolyn Dolby: That is so cool. We're so yeah, it's really cool. It's a teacher too. And I, I really love the, what I, I was a kindergarten teacher, you know, everything you learn, you learned in kindergarten. It really gave me a great foundation. So I, I hear you. I, I love where you come from, what you're doing.

[00:09:48] You've kind of done it all. So this is awesome. I know we're going to be talking about neurodiversity affirming. Do you mind, Okay. just getting, doing maybe a little overview for us listening to better understand what neurodiversity is. 

[00:10:05] Chris Wenger: Yeah. I mean, gosh, I can say I'll, I'll share in a few different ways, just even breaking down those terms with the word neuro, because this is kind of how I describe it to my students.

[00:10:16] Neuro meaning brain and then diversity meaning, you know, differences. And so if we really come at it by looking at, okay, so everybody in the Differences with the way we experience the world, the majority of the world communicates in a certain way and experiences their sensory needs in a certain way.

[00:10:40] But there are also other groups who might have a different way of communicating a different way of. Experiencing sensory needs and and that's important because we want to make sure that everybody's feeling hurt and being seen while we're not excluding others. And so there's been a really big shift you know, in more recent years about getting away from the fix it approach.

[00:11:07] Which was used to be viewing, you know, different neurotypes as either being broken or that they needed to be fixed. So what ended up happening over the years was there was a big push of saying, Hey, you you can't be who you are. We need to change who you are. So that way you can imitate or blend in with your peers.

[00:11:28] And that just has only led to a lot more anxiety and mental health challenges. And so neurodiversity at the core is understanding that the world is made up of different brain types. You know, I always think I have an activity book that I that I recently released, and we talk about neurodiversity in that book as a way of it being like a garden with different types of flowers and different types of you know, just a variety of, of the garden that that makes the collection and that's what makes the garden beautiful is that there are differences in flowers. We're not trying to take all of the roses and make them to lips or you know, or we're not trying to take the hydrangeas and say, hey, no, we don't want those. We've got to make sure everything looks the same because then we wouldn't have a beautiful garden.

[00:12:17] So, so neurodiversity is about exploring and understanding that all brains are different. 

[00:12:23] Carolyn Dolby: I like that. I like when you said brain types. 

[00:12:27] Chris Wenger: Right? Yeah, that's sometimes I'll say neurotype, but I just think it's kind of easier just to hear brain type. So, you know, and that could be from anything from a brain type of down syndrome, or it could be someone even with trauma.

[00:12:42] That's a, that's a, that's being neurodivergent. So, yeah, autism, ADHD and trying to come through the lens of how can we provide support while, you know, ensuring that we're not trying to change somebody. 

[00:12:55] Carolyn Dolby: I love that because they're not wrong. They're just different. 

[00:13:00] Chris Wenger: Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. And that that right there is a result, a resonating theme throughout the therapy that I provide, ensuring that the students know, like, hey, just because you're different doesn't mean it's wrong or bad.

[00:13:15] Remember, being different is okay. And that's really kind of that self acceptance piece, or at least the self awareness of, hey, I'm different and now I got to accept that I'm different, but I also need to build on the tools so I can advocate to get my needs met. 

[00:13:31] Carolyn Dolby: Ah, beautiful. I love it. I love it. So, as, as SpeechPaths, we are always working on our craft.

[00:13:39] We're always trying to keep ourselves with the current trends and understand to be better, because when you know, when you know better, you're going to do better. And I know that there's, yeah, the, the old way of thinking and the, what we used to do we can't. So we got to do that shift, which I hope today you are going to help us shift our thinking.

[00:14:01] But, you know, we've got some listeners that might be going, well, are there, how, what, huh, how, what do you think the challenges might be that, that an SLP might face? Do you want to tackle those? 

[00:14:16] Chris Wenger: Yeah, I mean, that 1st 1, you nailed it right there. The biggest 1 right there is just shifting the mindset.

[00:14:21] That's like the biggest challenge because sometimes we get stuck in this medical model of 

[00:14:27] disability that emphasizes, you know, that there are deficits that need to be fixed and that ends up pushing a behavioral approach and just over time, there's enough research out there that just says, hey, you know, this, this approach Isn't the most effective.

[00:14:43] And a lot of times what it can end up doing is it might seem like it works on the beginning phases, but then over the years, it ends up leading to more withdrawal for individuals or more anxiety, or it pushes them more into their trauma responses like fight or flight. And it just ends up being harmful.

[00:15:04] So one of the challenges absolutely is. On a large scale, how do we shift mindsets from the outdated way of thinking and looking at individuals as as as deficit as a deficit based lens? And how do we shift that mindset to a strengths based approach? Because. Sometimes people will misinterpret what a strengths based approach is.

[00:15:30] They'll say, well, if we're only looking at the strengths, then they're not going to qualify for services, but that's not what a strength based approach is. A strength based approach is saying, hey, look, I, we're going to talk about what your differences are, what your way of communicating style is, while also addressing the things that are difficult.

[00:15:50] So, then we can build an IEP, and we can build goals to help that need. So, let me give you an example. An example might be from a deficit based lens, you might see something that will say. The student perseverates on Super Mario Brothers and they obsess about it and they don't maintain eye contact and they are constantly running around the room and they are not staying on topic and they cannot engage in reciprocal communication or back and forth communication.

[00:16:26] Okay, so that type of language ends up creating goals that are. Exactly what I said, which is deficit based. So you're going to see a goal, such as this student needs to engage in back and forth conversation. The student needs to maintain eye contact for X amount of seconds. This student needs to talk about interest beyond, you Their obsession or stop perseverating.

[00:16:51] The student needs to stay on topic. And so those are the types of goals that are pushed. And what ends up happening is that we don't really see the change over the years. The kid gets more stressed out. They become more socially withdrawn because they're told, Hey, you can't talk about and engage with talking about super Mario brother.

[00:17:07] And then now they're forced to make eye contact. So now they're, they're anxieties through the roof and they're like, I don't want to go to school. I just can't do this anymore. Or we see other things such as the student running out of class, which is referred to as a loping. But basically, it's just needs aren't getting met.

[00:17:23] So I think any of us would run out of the class. If that was the case, or we might see physical aggression, verbal aggression, because the needs aren't getting met. So, they're, they're being told they, they, because it comes from a deficit baseline. Okay. So, with all of that being said, the reframe might look something like this student.

[00:17:42] Connects with their peers when discussing their, their passions, such as Super Mario Brothers and Bluey student is student prefers to listen while not being forced to make eye contact student. Need some movement breaks and when they're allowed to make some movement breaks and have a fidget that helps their body stay regulated so they can connect, they can engage in conversations, they can, they can maintain attention for a little bit in class or whatever that might be.

[00:18:14] Student likes to talk about Super Mario Brothers. And sometimes they might go into detail and they're doing this because they like to share the knowledge and the details and connect. It's Of building friendships. Okay, so that changes everything. That language that I used right there, because now we're talking about who the student is coming from a strengths based approach.

[00:18:37] But then I also discussed some accommodations and some things that they can have some help with, such as movement breaks access to fidgets, you know, having an accommodation that says don't require eye contact things such as. A speech and language goal, connecting with conversation by integrating their special interest and being allowed to talk about Super Mario Brothers.

[00:19:01] Like all of that is the biggest game changer. It's right there. Yeah. And so, yeah. So, so if we can get on a large scale, people to understand, hey, We could talk about strengths while also providing the services of things that might be challenging for the student and coming at it from a non pathologizing lens, a non deficit based lens.

[00:19:23] And I think that will be will be making some some good progress for the health and well, being of our students. And that is always number 1 prioritizing well, being in health, mental health. 

[00:19:37] Carolyn Dolby: I love that. I love when you talked about the medical approach or the medical model being like, this is a deficit.

[00:19:44] So we're going to fix it. But you're looking at the social model, which is what are their strengths they and how can we in? How can we foster their ability to communicate using their strengths? 

[00:20:00] Chris Wenger: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:20:01] Carolyn Dolby: Gorgeous. That's gorgeous right there. 

[00:20:04] Chris Wenger: And so, and so, yes, and to shadow that that's also another challenge is how do we, because of the deficit based model and because of the DSM, the assessments that we use to get information all come from a The comparative lens, because they're all normed on neurotypical students.

[00:20:30] So you'll get a pragmatic sub test or a social language development test type thing that ask questions to compare against their, their non autistic peers. So, you're already set up for failure with the assessment piece. So, the thing about what we need to do is to shift the questions that we ask. And when we do that.

[00:20:54] We're able to get the right answers. So I'll give you a couple examples. This is kind of where that assessment tool that I created came from was, how do we ask the right questions? Because in life, our whole lives are built up of a series of questions and answers. You ask the right question. You're going to get the right answer.

[00:21:12] You ask the wrong question. No, one's going to win. Right? It's even though I wake up in the morning and I have an IEP and I know there's going to be, you know, historically, maybe it's had some contention. Maybe there's an advocate. Right? I have 2 questions I can ask. I can either ask, okay, this meeting is going to suck.

[00:21:30] What are they going to say negative about me this time? Or what crappy thing is going to happen? Or I can say, you know, what is the parents perspective or the advocate going to request for today? And maybe I can further explore. So I can try to. See everybody's perspective. So that way, I'm going into the meeting without already feeling bitter or a grudge.

[00:21:51] So the question I asked myself prior to going is going to determine how my emotional state's going to be and how I'm going to connect with everybody. So the dazzle when I created that when it comes to assessing students, we're not asking, like, does the student turn take, or, you know, is the student going to be able to do that?

[00:22:08] Do they make eye contact or do they use humor appropriately? Because that's all subjective anyway. 

[00:22:16] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. 

[00:22:17] Chris Wenger: Or do they talk about age appropriate conversations or do they engage in reciprocal? All of the things that are on our checklist. We're getting away from that type of. Those types of questions, the type of questions we want to ask are in class.

[00:22:29] We want to connect maybe with the teacher of when the student gets stuck or is unclear. Are they asking for help? How are they asking for help? Are they emailing you for clarification when they're unclear on their directions? What does it look like for their ability to get their needs met? Are they connecting with their peers?

[00:22:47] And what does that look like that? We can better help the students. So they have a, you know. Connection with small group like we asked the parents, you know, when things are difficult, do they have some strategies to co regulate? Do they come to you for some help? So we're getting just like the big picture of how we can best help the students by asking the right questions.

[00:23:14] And that really is the game changer. But the challenge is getting that information out to people so we can make those changes. 

[00:23:22] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, I love that. I love the fact that you have the DASL. I wanted, I was going to ask at the end, but I think those that are listening might want to know what's the website for that?

[00:23:32] Chris Wenger: You could just go to speechdude.com. okay. Yeah, you know, what is another really cool thing because there's a couple other things that I have that can give some information like a free webinar and things like that. But if you just go to my Instagram and then you inbox me the word bananas, that's all you have to do.

[00:23:48] So it's like, yeah, so you inbox me the word bananas and it'll send you down a path to meet my, my speech dude bot, and he's, he's fun too. He's got some good humor. So that's always another option. 

[00:24:01] Carolyn Dolby: Well, I love it. Cause you know, dynamic assessment is kind of the other little buzzword. I hear a lot. And just being able to, when you're just saying, think about the questions you're asking, because you're right.

[00:24:14] Some of those tests that we're giving, they aren't normed on these kiddos. And it is so important to get that insight of. Exactly what you said when they're in the classroom, if they don't understand, and then you're writing this up narratively of really the impact, even so you're staying strength based, right?

[00:24:35] But you're able to show the impacts because this is how it's affecting in the classroom. Boom. 

[00:24:41] Chris Wenger: Yeah, absolutely. Dynamic assessment is valid for the assessment purposes in the school setting. There's this, there's this law or this act, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, IDEA, and within that in section 300306, it states that we can use measures to assess to get the most accurate results.

[00:25:06] We we use measures that yield the most accurate results. That's quote unquote what it says in the in the the language. And it doesn't say that we have to use standardized assessments. Now, some districts might have policies where it's required, but the law, the big law at the top IDA law, we don't have to use formal or standardized assessments if those assessment tools are not yielding the most accurate results.

[00:25:30] And if you really think about it, are they ever really yielding the most accurate results when you have a kid? Going who knows they're being tested. So now they're being like, hyper vigilant. Like, did I say the right thing? Did I not say the right thing to answer? Right? They're not. They're going usually with an examiner that they don't really know where they don't bond or connect with.

[00:25:47] So now they're anxieties to the roof research shows that when you have a lot of anxiety, you're not going to get the same output. There's. Only one way of giving your output, which is usually they have to listen to the prompt and then they have to have some working memory. Many of our kids have executive functioning difficulty.

[00:26:05] So it's hard for them to get some of those answers out. So you're absolutely not going to get the right or accurate results if we rely solely on standardized tests. So I think that's another really helpful thing. We have a lot of help us. We just have to know how to access. What sections of the law? 

[00:26:22] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah.

[00:26:23] So I wrote it down. I may want to make sure I wrote it down. Right. IDA. You said section 300. 306.

[00:26:29] Chris Wenger: point 306. Yeah. That's like the assessment section of IDA. Okay. 

[00:26:34] Carolyn Dolby: For all of those out there, they're writing it down. 

[00:26:37] Chris Wenger: They're like, Oh God, I love this. No, that's actually that's actually the beauty. Like within my assessment, I have some sample reports.

[00:26:47] I include the law in my report. And the reason is, is because, because of the challenges that we just talked about, if people have a different mindset or people are looking and doing things from some things from the past, and my report doesn't reflect some of their views, I can stand on why I wrote what I wrote and I have the law to prove it.

[00:27:09] So if it ever goes to due process or it ever goes to the administrative law judge, I could say, look, right here in IDEA law, I have some flexibility to do a dynamic assessment to get information from the teachers and the family and the student. And I can do it from observations and from a lot of other varieties other than having to do normalized assessments.

[00:27:33] Carolyn Dolby: Right. 

[00:27:34] Chris Wenger: Back myself up. 

[00:27:36] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. And I mean, talk about getting the parents and students involved. You know? 

[00:27:41] Chris Wenger: Oh yeah. That's like, that's huge. Yeah. That's yeah. Cause I know we'll probably get into that. But with that being said, that's always, that's always paramount to success. First, getting information from the parents and asking the right questions and building the trust.

[00:28:01] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, 

[00:28:02] Chris Wenger: that's huge. Yeah. That trust piece is huge. I always think about back in, you know, 2001, nine 11 prior to nine 11, we were able to go to the airport. I remember it. I like, I would go on my college trips and I would have like a bottle of tequila. You just go right out of the airport. Like it's not really like.

[00:28:20] You know, TSA was like, here, let me wand you real quick, go have some fun. But then 9 11 happened and when 9 11 happened, it lost trust permanently. So the whole system changed from that day forward for all of us, it became really locked down and really strict and as it should, but my point being, once you break trust, it's like next to impossible to get back.

[00:28:45] So. I work at the high school level. Some of the parents might have had some things that have happened in the past. But my job as an SLP is to be an active listener. Like, where are you coming from? What are your struggles and concerns about your child? And then I'm here. So I can best collaborate with you and establish that trust.

[00:29:03] Yeah, so that's number 1. The number 2 is on the student end, which ties into intrinsic motivation. A lot of times IEP goals are written. And sometimes even outside of the, of the school setting, but without asking the student, Hey, Is this something that you would like to work on? Like, there's so much research from Daniel Pink and from Alfie Cohn and from so many other people.

[00:29:25] Andrew Huberman has some of his stuff online about intrinsic motivation and the drive and that internal need. For autonomy and that mastery and purpose, and if you really want to have some intrinsic motivation and get the goals to be successful, then the student has to have buy in. That's the key. Like, hey, do you want to work on this goal?

[00:29:46] Or what are some of the things that are challenging for you? Let's create some goals that you're also in agreement with. So. We all win. 

[00:29:56] Carolyn Dolby: I love that. You know what? I get so I love the fact that you're saying, you know, really, you're getting everybody involved from the beginning, starting with assessment.

[00:30:07] This isn't just a we're coming to you and telling you this is what's wrong. You're, you're bringing the family, the students all in. So everyone has buy in from the get go. And now you're saying, not only that, but let's talk about it in the the goals. So, 

[00:30:23] Chris Wenger: yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's that's the big piece.

[00:30:26] They're getting everybody to have buy in now. Sometimes there will be resistance from maybe a team member. Maybe somebody has a different approach, right? Could be from like, a behavioral approach. It could be the parent saying, look, I know that you want to work on these things, but, you know, I still want to work on my child blending in with their neurotypical peers or whatever they want to call that.

[00:30:54] And then at that point, it's still collaborating. It's still having trust with the parents, but it's also, you know, sometimes you can't do it necessarily in the meeting, but I'll say, yeah, you know what? I think we share some of the same concerns. Here are some. Articles or some research that that I stand on with my, my approach, we can still do that, but here's how we're going to do it.

[00:31:22] So let me give you an example. Yeah. The parent says my child, in order for them to be successful in the real world, it doesn't have to be the parent. It could be anybody. Well, we want them to learn social skills because how are they going to succeed in the real world? They need a friend or several friends to have.

[00:31:39] Yeah. So they're not lonely, and so we want to teach them, you know, social skills. And so I say, okay, I want them to have the skills to where they're. Authentic to where they're not having to fake who they are in conversations. So that will sustain some genuine friendships rather than fake friendships.

[00:32:01] And I want to also prioritize their wellbeing and their health. So here's what we're going to do. I think that if we can build on some of their interest, you know, whatever your child is interested in and we connect them with like minded peers. I can create a small social group where conversations will happen naturally.

[00:32:20] We'll have a variety of activities. They'll get to learn a little bit about themselves and they'll build friendship that is. Authentic, and that will serve a much greater purpose than teach them teaching them to imitate their peers, because a lot of times the curriculum it's packaged to say, Hey, look, we've got all of these video modeling social skills.

[00:32:47] Now, in isolation, watch these videos now go out there and do what you watched in the video. And the thing is, is maybe they can do it, but it's not true or authentic to them. It's uncomfortable to them. And over time again, I mentioned, they become hyper vigilant and then become even more socially withdrawn.

[00:33:05] So, what ends up happening is that we all have a parent that has a freshman and they'll tell me my child's been in social skills. And working on this stuff for six years and they still don't have a friend. They're still, and that's been our biggest challenge. 

[00:33:19] And the whole reason is because the approach was wrong because the kid was being taught to be someone they're not, that's not going to be the success of the outcome they need to be taught that they might have some differences that they'll connect with people who are similar to them and we can do that through building, you know, a foundation of.

[00:33:38] Of social groups, not social skills training, but social groups of of of peers where they can blossom naturally. I think that's that's huge. 

[00:33:49] Carolyn Dolby: You I just had this. When you said, Oh, I got my, you even gave me chills. When you said you're going to foster relationships with like minded peers that build authentic relationships and, and conversations will then develop.

[00:34:10] I'm, I'm dying right now. Cause this is amazing because I think about, cause the parent says, I want them to, to have friends and have a conversation. As adults, if I find myself in a social situation and they are talking about something that I am not like minded about, I know how to get myself out of it. I don't force myself to stay in that conversation.

[00:34:37] Wow. 

[00:34:38] Chris Wenger: Yeah, imagine being forced into it. So like you. Go to a wedding with your significant other. It's like they're cousins getting married. You got invited and you get to the wedding and the person that's checking you in. You go look at the the big map of what table you're sitting at for dinner and you're at table 8 and someone says, hey, I know that you're at table 8, but.

[00:34:59] For this wedding, we're switching it a table 6 because you don't know any of their family members. You don't know any of their cousins. So we're going to remove you from everybody and all your comfort zone put you over there. But, but you have to make sure that at that table of people that you've never met and that you have no interest in talking to, you're going to have to talk about things that you don't love talking about.

[00:35:18] So you're going to have to talk about Okay. I don't know. It's something that people don't love talking about, whatever it is. Right. And then you have to make eye contact, make sure you make eye contact. But then when you start talking about the thing that you don't love you know, you have to make sure that you have a conversation at least with three exchanges, you'd be like, I hate weddings, not going back with you.

[00:35:40] That sucks. You know, more anxiety than when you went in the first place. Right. So it's funny because we have these like. We have these perceptions that if we give these kids those skills, they're just going to magically have some friends and then they're not going to be lonely, but it inadvertently does the opposite effect.

[00:35:57] We ended up teaching kids to be somebody they're not and to go up to groups of peers that they don't really feel comfortable with, to talk about the things that they don't love. And then to monitor themselves, like, did I, did I follow up with a question or did I not? Did I add a thought to that? Or did I not?

[00:36:13] And they're like, hold on a second. 

[00:36:14] Carolyn Dolby: You just. You just froze a second. So, I got that, but that just will back up that. Yeah, you're talking about forcing a kid to go up to a group that they, they don't have an interest in themselves. To talk about something they have no interest in that's right. Yeah. 

[00:36:36] Chris Wenger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:36:36] To talk about things they have no interest in. And then for them, they're like, you know what? This is just causing me more stress than where I was at a year ago. And so, yeah. And so there's just different ways about it. We just have to be able to try to put ourselves in. It's shifting our lens. Honestly, that's what it is.

[00:36:55] Like everything in life. Yeah, it's about, you know, perspective. And if we can shift our lens to foster healthy connections, genuine conversations, I think that's a much better approach. I always think about that. That's kind of like my, my guiding rule on when it comes to an IEP goal or the way I write a report, or how I create a social group is.

[00:37:21] Is this comfortable for the student? Is this something that the student wants? Is this prioritizing their mental health and well being? Because if it's not, or if this is causing more dysregulation, or if this is causing more anxiety, or if this is causing more depression, that's just not the right approach.

[00:37:37] That's the kind of language I'll use too. If somebody, like, let's say I'm in an IEP meeting, and they say, we got an outside evaluation in IEE. And in the IEE, there's 3 goals that are recommended. We want those. We want therapy 3 times a week. 

[00:37:51] Carolyn Dolby: Right. 

[00:37:52] Chris Wenger: The, the, the conversation then becomes, did we get input from the student?

[00:37:58] Do they want that? Do they want to be pulled that much? Second, the goals that are presented is this. Teaching the student or the child to be inauthentic or to mimic, is this like mimicking a neurotypical social skill? Because if so, there's a lot of research that says that this will just lead high masking leads to anxiety, depression and much more severe things as the years go on.

[00:38:23] So that's the conversation I have and I say, so I think we should be very cautious on those recommendations. And here are some of my recommendations that I feel. Prioritize the student's mental health and their well being and that's will always be my stance and I and I and I always try to try to let the try to get that message.

[00:38:46] Across to the, to the families, to the parents, it's always a huge one. That's what they want. 

[00:38:51] Carolyn Dolby: I think it's apparent. Here's what that you are taking in account the, the mental health and and their child's best interest. And sometimes there is that education part. Let's when we're talking, we're talking about you want to kind of give us those.

[00:39:10] Let's refresh those components. You kind of like, what are those three components for a strength based IEP? 

[00:39:18] Chris Wenger: Yeah, so, okay, so as strength based IEPs will, one of the most important things on the IEP, it's going to be the present levels page. 

[00:39:28] Carolyn Dolby: Oh, okay. 

[00:39:28] Chris Wenger: Because, yeah those can be, I don't know if it varies from state, present levels of performance.

[00:39:34] Carolyn Dolby: We use that here too in texas, yeah. 

[00:39:36] Chris Wenger: I was going to say, it's probably ubiquitous between all the states, and then, you know, PLOP, P L O P. 

[00:39:41] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah, pLOP, yeah. Right, so. Yeah. 

[00:39:43] Chris Wenger: Yeah, so the present levels of performance is such a huge piece because in our assessments, in our observations, in our reports from teachers and parents, all of that, we can kind of summarize and get it into that section of the IEP, whatever that statement or whatever those statements are on the present levels of performance.

[00:40:07] What's going to drive the services and what's going to create the goals, right? So we always want to make sure that. That we do our best over time to learn what type of language that we are putting into the present levels of performance. And that's huge too, because that'll always be this section that is reflected if the meeting ever escalates to the next steps.

[00:40:33] It's like, hey, well, why did you create that goal? It's like, well, let's go back, look in the reports and look at the present levels of performance. 

[00:40:40] And so for a strengths based IEP, what we're doing is we're trying to use the accommodation section to change the environment, not the student. So, for example, for example, yeah, rather than having a kid be in a classroom where there's always, you know, Loud sounds going on, maybe their next door to the band room, or maybe they're in their TV video class.

[00:41:07] And there's a lot of projectors that make the loud squeaky noise, or maybe they're inside of a classroom that doesn't have any of the light cover. So the fluorescent lights are just really bright. If that's that sensory sensitivity that the students have, then incorporating the. Accommodation in the IEP would be a strengths based way.

[00:41:29] So allowing the student access to noise cancelling headphones, allowing the student access to an alternative setting when there's a big rally or an assembly, or there's just too many people to me, bright lights, loud sounds, or it's confined with a lot of people allowing the student. You know, and then some of the other more common things you might see, allowing the student to get a little extra time on something or printed notes or clarification on directions.

[00:42:02] Another really important when I think to like a strengths based approaches, if the student starts to feel overwhelmed or anxious because they're. There's just too many executive functioning things going on. They were asked to, you know, have to write something and then get into a group. And then they were having to do 3 other tasks, right?

[00:42:22] Whatever that might be in the accommodations page, having access to 1 trusted person in every building or having access to 2 trusted people on campus to help them co regulate having a place to go. Where they can get back to, all right, now I'm more regulated. And at that point, now I can learn a child that's dysregulated or has a lot of anxiety constantly is not going to be in their optimal learning zone.

[00:42:53] So, if we can embed those types of things in the IEP. Then we'll really see some big changes in a positive way. But yeah, I really like to use, I really like to think out of the box on a strengths based IEP is going to be changing the environment, not the student. A strengths based IEP is going to be working and emphasizing one's ability to self advocate for their needs and self advocate.

[00:43:19] Also, let's say it's a non speaking student that uses an AAC device. 

[00:43:24] We want that student to be able to communicate when they're stressed or when they have a headache or when something like they have body aches, or we want that student to be able to request like, Hey, I need a short movement break, or I am feeling really nervous right now, or there's just too much work.

[00:43:45] Like all students should be able to communicate when they're stressed. They have those feelings, because if they can't, then they're going to be dysregulated. And then it's going to on the outside seem like they're having they're being defiant, or they're being non compliant, which just isn't the case. So, sometimes you'll see, you know, maybe you'll have a student that.

[00:44:07] Runs out of the classroom, like, okay, so the idea here is not how do we keep the kid from eloping? Or how do we keep the kids stay seated and then come in with a bunch of sticker charts or token systems? Because that's not solving the why we have to come in and say, instead of asking, how do we keep the kid in the class or get them to do the work?

[00:44:28] We think about why is this kid running? Why is this kid? You know, having anxiety, or why is this kid having a hard time accessing this this thing? And then we, and then we kind of do the reverse engineering so we can come in with the right tools and strategies. And so that's kind of like, coming from a strengths based approach, like, strains based.

[00:44:53] You won't see sticker charts and tokens and things like that. What you will see is you know, you know, support with self advocacy, communication you'll see all of those types of, all of those types of approaches that are, that are not really compliance based. You know, they're more of strengths based, 

[00:45:15] Carolyn Dolby: right?

[00:45:15] Okay. I'm going to go back to when you were talking about the environment. And I don't know why this popped in my head because if you wrote in the in your plaf, right? That the student has trouble with loud noises. Okay, deficit. So then you wrote a goal that the child will acclimate to. So what you're gonna like, do that.

[00:45:36] I don't know why that jumped in my head because sometimes I have to take it to the ridiculousness for people to realize how ridiculous it really is. We're not going to make a child go through this like desensitizing of. Allow I don't know. I don't that just made me go. That kind of was another thing.

[00:45:53] Just if you can just look at it like that, like that is ridiculous. We would never do that. Why are we doing that in other areas? Yeah, or like, you know, it's not all too uncommon to see a a page, a chart printed out that will say I am working for, and then it'll have like five things, but all of the things that they're working for are actually the things that are going to help them access regulation or the, or the curriculum.

[00:46:21] Chris Wenger: So, for example, it's like, I am working for, and then it will say break for movement time. I'm like. That kid needs that right now. Like they shouldn't have to work for that. If that's what they need right now, or I am working for noise canceling headphones or my fidget or my plushie, it's like, wait, those are actually the things that they shouldn't have to work for because those are the things that are going to help them out.

[00:46:43] It's like, imagine you have to read. Three sentences, right? So you're like, okay, after you're done reading your, for every sentence you read, you're going to get a star after three stars, we'll give you your reading glasses. It's like, wait, I actually have to read in order to earn my reading glasses. Like that's actually the thing that's going to help me read the sentences in the first place.

[00:47:09] Sometimes it's, yeah, sometimes you have to ship the perspective and use those analogies for it to really hit home and go, yeah, that is true. 

[00:47:18] Carolyn Dolby: Love that. That's exactly how I work. Cause my thing was like, okay, I'm going to need you to communicate. And as soon as you communicate, I'm going to give you your device.

[00:47:26] Chris Wenger: Right. Oh my gosh. Yes. There's just like, even with the devices, there's so many misconceptions and myths on those things. But yeah, it's like, yeah, just 

[00:47:39] Carolyn Dolby: let's show, bring some humor to it. It kind of, it kind of, I, that's how I am too. Let's make it a little funny because like you're asking this, but it's kind of like this.

[00:47:49] If you see it like this, don't you think that that's a little odd? Yeah, like we're going to have, anyway, I can go on and on. Cause I'm all about the humor on that. 

[00:47:58] Chris Wenger: I love it. I think that's what makes for a good IEP, like a good therapy session and a good IEP is bringing some humor. I always I'm always myself in those, in the IEP meetings, because I feel like it, it's, it's, it's.

[00:48:11] It's just who I am, but it's like, I know it's a meeting and it's 

[00:48:15] Carolyn Dolby: Well, we can still be professional, but us, professional us. Absolutely. 

[00:48:20] Chris Wenger: Professional us. I'm still going to be me. 

[00:48:22] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. Yeah. Be the best me I can be. Well, you just said the word therapy sessions. Let's get into that. I am. I want to, I want to open your brain and I want to take it all in.

[00:48:33] I know we don't have enough time for that, but lay it on us. Give us what you can give us. 

[00:48:39] Chris Wenger: Oh, yeah, for therapy. Oh, gosh. So that's kind of where the, the concept of that activity book I created was thinking about how can we get students to learn about who they are and when they can become more self aware, then for all of us.

[00:48:58] Right? So I'll give you an example. Some of our students don't even realize like they might have differences with sensory needs, right? They might not realize like. Not everybody is sensitive to loud sounds in the class or bright lights, or someone chewing gum across the classroom, whatever it might be.

[00:49:16] Right? So we kind of explore those types of things. We explore different ways of communicating some people. Sometimes it might be a little bit more challenging to use spoken. Language to verbal speech, right? And so it being able to write it down or text or use a device to communicate might be more effective in certain moments.

[00:49:40] So we explore those types of things. We explore that the world is made up of different brain types and we talk about strengths. So we explore special interests. You know, why do those matter? Why? Right. What are special interests like areas of passion and then why for a neurodivergent individual, why would that be important for others?

[00:50:06] And it would be things such as to be able to connect with others. It brings joy. It finds a piece of calm. It helps connect friendships with other people who might share that similar special interest. There's a lot of reasons for it. So we really dive into those types of things. We. In a therapy session, we'll, I'll kind of put out a variety of activities that will shadow these types of concepts.

[00:50:31] Sometimes they might be electronic. So, well, you know, I have like a video game console in my, in my office and it's really cool. Yeah, because. We'll get some opportunities to just make it fun. Puzzles, doodling, comics the, in the video game one, I'll have students play, like, you know, I'll give them, you know, a few games of playing Mario cart and the kids who you would see on an IEP that would say they're very shy.

[00:51:01] They don't communicate with others, socially withdrawn. Lonely doesn't make friends. It's the same kid that you. Put on Mario Kart with another kid who absolutely loves Super Mario. And then they're like, Hey, have you ever played Super Smash Brothers Brawl? Yeah, I have. Who, what character? And then now they're talking about that.

[00:51:20] And they're like, Hey, do you by chance have discord? Cause I'm in this group with some other people. And like you all of a sudden you got a friendship and you're like, wait, this IEP is not reflective of who that kid is. All they needed was to find the right person. They needed to find their people. They needed to find their community.

[00:51:36] And so that's kind of what I feel like the role is from what used to be the role years ago to now, which is it used to be a fixer. Now we're a facilitator. So we just kind of shift the language and I facilitate. Language expression, social communication and connection authentically and naturally. I help, you know, bridge that gap between acquaintances and what our friends, what makes a true friend and then how can we have those friendships that are sustainable?

[00:52:09] How do we build self advocacy skills? So, needs are getting met in class. How do we identify the perspectives of others and not saying that their perspective is wrong? But how do we give them insight? So they can navigate. The complex social world. Yeah, so there's a lot of things. And that's kind of, yeah, that activity book I mentioned, it really hits home on understanding oneself.

[00:52:31] That's kind of the staircase, right? It's even for us as we become adults and we're on social media and we connect with accounts and then we're like, oh, my gosh, that might have. Been how I reacted is based in trauma because of this and like, oh, I love following this account. And then we learn more about ourselves.

[00:52:49] And then we learn about, oh, my gosh, if I validate my partner here, that's going to make everything better. So we're constantly learning. The more we learn about ourselves and become more self aware, the more confidence we can have in. asking for help. So self awareness about our differences, about our challenges, about our strengths.

[00:53:11] And then we go to the next step, which is it builds our self esteem and confidence because now we know that we're not a broken neurotypical. We just know that we have differences. I think that sometimes our kids feel like I'm so different than all my peers. And I don't know why there's something wrong with me.

[00:53:29] And that type of thought turns into a lot, a lower self esteem. Like there's something wrong with me. All these people magically pop into groups and socialize and I can't do it. And I've tried I'm broken and that leads to low self esteem and low self esteem leads to not asking for getting your needs met.

[00:53:49] So we flip the script and we build self awareness and we step to self confidence and self esteem. And then the last step is self advocacy in all settings. So that's really the skills that I really like to help build and so. Like in a session, I really will even explore like going to the dentist office and we'll talk about that.

[00:54:12] Like, hey, so what are some of the things that you as a group, I'll say, share with me 1 or 2 things that you don't really love about going to the dentist. And I'll say, well, you know what? I hate. When I go to the dentist is there's this really big, bright light, and I just hate that. Okay, let's write down some more.

[00:54:29] I hate having to talk to the receptionist when we get there. Okay. I hate the loud drilling of the whatever's going in my mouth. Okay. I hate how they always show the same cartoon on the TV list. All these things. Okay. Now, what are some things we can do to meet some of these needs? And then. Okay. We'll talk about the loud drilling.

[00:54:50] Well, do you think maybe we can talk to the dental assistant or in advance we can write, you know, message them on Yelp or we can email them from the website to say, would it be okay if I wear my noise canceling headphones during, you know, my dental work? Is it okay if I wear my shaded glasses so I don't have to see the bright light?

[00:55:07] Is it okay if I change the channel instead of it being on the same one? Is it okay, rather than having to verbally speak to the receptionist, if I can just do this through writing on the app or writing it down. So constantly working on daily life skills that get their needs met. 

[00:55:28] Carolyn Dolby: Wow. 

[00:55:28] Chris Wenger: That's so much fun.

[00:55:30] Carolyn Dolby: That's a forever skill. Talk about being it is. I mean, everyone has to go to the dentist. So let's talk about something that's in their life right now, get your needs met and be able to generalize that. How would you then do that? If you're going somewhere else, what would you need to do to ensure? 

[00:55:49] Chris Wenger: Yeah.

[00:55:49] And it's constantly sharpening the blade and then just practicing and, and, and trying and doing our best to get better at it. It's funny cause I talk about all this stuff and then I catch myself. You know, in my own situations where I'm not always advocating for many reasons, so like, I'll be at a, you know, outback steakhouse and I'll ask for, like, a medium rare steak and it'll come out like medium.

[00:56:17] Well, and then I'm like, shoot. This is going to taste horrible. Cause that's not what I asked for, but I don't want to ask them if they can take it back and give me a new one. Cause now I feel bad about that. And I'm like, but I, I teach self advocacy skills and this would be me advocating. And then sometimes I catch myself not doing it.

[00:56:31] So there's always so much we can do. 

[00:56:34] Carolyn Dolby: But that's also good to bring it into the therapy like, you know, sometimes I do this too, you know, and I didn't ask for that. Yeah, 

[00:56:43] Chris Wenger: but and you know, it's funny is learning about myself and learning about like the trauma response bonding. I'm a people pleaser, so I always catch myself saying yes, but the more I can become more self aware of that, the more I can say, you know what?

[00:56:55] Sometimes just say no, and then that'll help your mental health. And so I'm constantly like, even in my own life, and it'll always be evolving for all of us, but like my students are actually helping me. And then like, it's, so it's kind of, you know, it works hand in hand. I'm like, all right. I just told my students this now I got to go do this.

[00:57:14] Here we go. 

[00:57:16] Carolyn Dolby: Yeah. I, I need some help with, I come from a place of yes. More specifically. Oh, hell yeah. Yes is always my answer to everything. I find a yes to every request and I, and I need to slow my roll and learn that it is okay to say no, it is okay. 

[00:57:35] Chris Wenger: Especially like at the school setting, because it's like, hey, Chris, we have an IEP meeting that I didn't tell you about.

[00:57:41] It's in 5 minutes. Do you think you could write a report and be there in 5 minutes? I'm like, yeah, I dig it. I just said, yeah, I should have said it. I need to learn to say no when a no should be a no. And yes, that's it. That's life right there. 

[00:57:57] Carolyn Dolby: Agreed. And right. And sometimes we're, I'm going to tell you a quick story about how when I'm not self aware and my daughter was my, my daughter and I were going this is a few years because she's graduated now from college and we were going to her college I don't know, beginning and right before we open the door into the Coliseum or auditorium, we're going in, she turns around, she goes, You're gonna hate this, but you're gonna be okay.

[00:58:21] My daughter says this to me, because she knows I get overwhelmed by large groups and large noises. And I, oh my gosh, wow, that she really understood me. I did not like it. 

[00:58:37] Chris Wenger: She knew, 

[00:58:39] Carolyn Dolby: but I did it. I did it. 

[00:58:41] Chris Wenger: I love that. That's awesome. Absolutely. I love, yeah, I think that that self, that, that, that piece, reflecting back on what I just mentioned Yeah.

[00:58:51] Is a, such a huge piece right there. It's like you don't just identifying it like in that moment. Should I have said no? Because I said yes, should I have said no? And then I reflect back and I go, yeah, I should have. Okay, now that Elise can pinpoint it, now I can try to improve that for next time. At least give myself a little bit of time to process it before I rapidly say yes or no.

[00:59:17] Yeah, but all of those types of all of those types of skills can ring true for our kids too. 

[00:59:23] Carolyn Dolby: But what I'm hearing, so you're setting your IEP up to reflect that we are working on. Self awareness, which would then build self confidence and self esteem. And then ultimately everybody's goal is for everyone to have self advocacy.

[00:59:40] How could anybody fight that? I mean, 

[00:59:43] Chris Wenger: right. I think that's how you can live a harmonious life is there's like the other, the other kicker is that when you self advocate for, for your needs, that it's reciprocal and that's where the educational piece comes into. So you might have like. Hypothetically, a teacher where a student says, you know, it really helps me if I can get those notes printed out and to wear noise canceling headphones.

[01:00:09] And the teacher says, no, I can't do that for you because it's not fair to everybody else, right? That could happen. We hear that sometimes. So it's a matter of also the educational piece back to what we were talking about earlier, shifting perspective. So, like, in an IEP, if there's, you know, Staff members and teachers there, I'll always emphasize and sometimes that's why I try to build trust with the teachers that I work with.

[01:00:32] And on our campus, it's a safe place to where I'll go personally talk to a teacher and say, hey, you know, this student can tend to struggle here. If you can provide this accommodation, you're going to see all of these other areas blossom as well. You know, so they don't realize, like, by giving the student the accommodation, that student's going to be the best version of themselves in all areas.

[01:00:56] And they're not going to see any kind of behavioral challenges that they may have seen previously. And then, and it's like, literally everybody wins with with that type of thinking. So that's the hopes for the future is less compliance based more more. Understanding other people's needs when people have accommodations that are needed, then giving it to them and, you know, providing some autonomy and some agency to help build self determination.

[01:01:27] And I, I really think that's like the, the hopes for helping the mental health and well being of all 

[01:01:37] Carolyn Dolby: that's beautiful. I mean, I love that and I that's it 

[01:01:41] Chris Wenger: right there. That will write that one down. 

[01:01:43] Carolyn Dolby: We got to write that. We haven't recorded. That's a mantra. That's what we need to do. I love what you said about the why not only understanding the why that the child is doing something, but the why for the teacher to understand why if you do this, this is going to happen.

[01:02:02] Like, positively, because when people really understand the why behind something, they're going to do it with fidelity, hopefully. Yeah. 

[01:02:13] Chris Wenger: Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. I always think that. Yeah. You just kind of lean into it a little bit and say, okay, here. Yeah. I can provide that. And then it'll be, it'd be much better, much easier and healthier.

[01:02:26] Carolyn Dolby: Right. I've even 

[01:02:28] Chris Wenger: had to do that in like, it's funny cause all of these things that I talk about are also strategies and concepts that I use in my household. So you know, with my children, it's the same type of thing. I'm like, okay, should I resist this and not provide that? Yeah. And let's see how that goes.

[01:02:44] Or should I, you know, kind of be flexible here and provide that so other things can get done. It was funny because that just happened a couple of nights ago with my three year old. It was like, you know, it was getting kind of late and it's time for him to brush his teeth. But then he snagged the iPad and he was watching Spidey and amazing friends.

[01:03:05] He loved that show. I'm all right, Jack, it's time to brush our teeth. And it was like. Came with like a big resistance on my buddy. How about this? You brush your teeth. If I'll come help you out, then you can brush Daddy's teeth and then I'll give you a couple more minutes. And it was like he was already, it was too far, too late.

[01:03:21] Like he was like, no daddy. So it's just like, okay, well here we go. Let's just lean into this. Hey buddy, I want you to watch Sp his amazing friends, so let's go watch. And so I carried it as he is watching it is carried it. And I sat there and I got his toothbrush out. I'm all right. Here you go. So he is like brushing his teeth while watching Spotty and The Amazing Prince Mall.

[01:03:40] Oh yeah. It was. That worked. I just leaned into it a little bit. And then everybody wins yeah, and then get that thing turned off. So that was challenging, 

[01:03:49] Carolyn Dolby: right? Yeah. 

[01:03:50] Chris Wenger: A whole nother level, but Hey, you know what? Parenting and, and, and, and speech pathologizing and, and all of the things that we do you know, it's kind of figuring out what seems to work and, and, and, and help.

[01:04:03] Get knees, Matt. Everybody happy. Yeah, everybody. How do we want...

[01:04:07] Carolyn Dolby: everybody to win. I love it. I want to make sure that everybody listening will go to your website, which is www.speechdude.com. If you haven't been there, go there. There's so much stuff. Look at your, he's got Chris, you've got great assessment tools.

[01:04:24] I was, I, I love it. I love your website. I love the fact that you came and spoke on my podcast. I am like geeking out. I love it. This has been fantastic. I hope that you enjoyed yourself too, and that you would consider maybe coming back again, because you've got such a wealth and breadth of knowledge on this.

[01:04:44] I love it. 

[01:04:45] Chris Wenger: Yeah, this is my area of passion. So in the future, yeah, we'll connect, but I just, I had a great time. Thank you so much for having me on as a guest. I, I am really hoping that's the, that's the future too, is to shift mindsets and make change. So, so the world can continue spinning in a, in a good direction.

[01:05:04] We could add to it. We could, we could, we'll make the shift, make the change and everybody wins.

[01:05:10] Carolyn Dolby: There you go. Make the shift, make the change. Everybody wins. That's what we want you to leave knowing shift. 

[01:05:17] Chris Wenger: Yes. 

[01:05:17] Carolyn Dolby: Win. Love it. 

[01:05:19] Chris Wenger: That's right. 

[01:05:20] Carolyn Dolby: All right. Thank you. 

[01:05:22] Chris Wenger: Thanks so much. Bye. 

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