TRANSCRIPT - NHIE – 1x05 DANI: Welcome back to “Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast”. I’m Dani, CLARA: and I’m Clara DANI: and today we will be discussing the fifth episode titled “Never Have I Ever… started a nuclear war” CLARA: We have a special guest joining us today -- Alex Skinner, who plays Dudley on the model UN team. He’s the chair of the security council, I believe, right? ALEX: That is correct! I don’t have my gavel today, but that’s right. CLARA: Well we welcome you anyway Alex! Gavel or no. ALEX: Yeah thanks for having me! CLARA: and Before we get too far into this episode, let’s let Eleanor and Fabiola shed some light on it... [clip from Never Have I ever plays: Fabiola and Eleanor have a serious discussion. Eleanor is at first jealous of Fabiola’s family, whom she thinks appear perfect. Fabiola says that her family isn’t perfect and confesses that she has a huge secret. She then comes out as gay to Eleanor. Fabiola apologises for not coming out sooner, but Eleanor shows very enthusiastic support and tells Fabiola not to apologise at all. Fabiola realises how great it felt to admit her sexuality out loud.] DANI: So Clara, what did you think of this episode? CLARA: I love this episode, I mean you know I’ve been talking since we started how much I like Fabiola’s arc, and the sort of gradual coming-out story that she has. And this is the first time we see get to her come out to a person, which I really love, I love getting to see that. Eleanor’s arc is also really interesting. I had forgotten— for some reason I thought Eleanor’s arc happened a little later in the season, and then I re-watched and saw that all of these things are happening at the same time. It was just kind of wild. I was re-watching it and seeing that transition at the very end where she does her audition and the pain from all the experiences she has around her mum coming back translating into her suddenly making this breakthrough as an actor. That was really cool. And of course all of the model UN stuff is crazy. It kind of reminded me… we recently saw the model-UN episode of Community, we are doing a Community-rewatch. And I keep accidentally keep mixing parts of them, they were both so wild. DANI: Model-UN seems wild, I’ve never know what it is! CLARA: I don’t think it is! CLARA: I don’t think it’s normally as wild as it’s portrayed on TV. DANI: It could be! It could be like the whole band-camp situation, which Band-camp is actually really crazy! CLARA: Alex did you do Model-UN in school? ALEX: I did not do Model-UN, I knew some people who did Model-UN but they didn’t really talk about what happens so I was going in blind a little bit. But you get a bunch of people in a room debating, it’s bound to get really intense! I assume. DANI: That’s true. CLARA: So Dani what about you? What did you think about the episode? DANI: I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but this is probably one of my favorite episodes for so many reasons. CLARA: This is why we are not doing ratings, because this is what happened every single time. DANI: Exactly. For one this is the episode where Fabiola comes out to an actual human, as you said: her best friend Eleanor. I really love their friendship so much. This is also obviously the Model UN trip episode… which I feel like was a big turning point for people deciding if they shipped Benvi or not. It also shows that Devi seems to be the queen of saying shit she doesn’t mean when she’s really upset. CLARA: Oh yeah for sure. DANI: Alex, what are your thoughts on the episode? ALEX: It’s interesting because I first approached the episode when I got the script for it before we shot it. I didn’t know what was going on with most of the characters at this point because I had no information. But I thought it was just really, really funny. Getting to see just how the story plays out in this episode without knowing who the characters were at this point. There’s just little things I thought were hilarious, even the way Fabiola tries to come out to her parents, she doesn’t do it, but you still see that judgemental… how opinionated they are—that comes out. And I think that was funny to know [because] when she finally does come out to them, how’s that going to look? But obviously all the Model-UN stuff is great. It’s just your high-school hijinks on a field trip. And it’s just kind of fun to see them play around with all these different scenarios and having Russia (who is played by Atticus) to just come, in create this chaos, it’s just so much fun to watch. CLARA: I feel like the cool thing about Model-UN conceit is that you have a bunch of people who you don’t normally have [in the show]. I think on our previous podcast we had somebody on, who started as a guest [character] and then became a recurring character. And one of the things he said is: when you’re a guest, especially in a comedic role, you have to be kind of a ringer. And so this ends up being, I think, one of the funniest episodes in part because there are so many ringers. There’s so many guests who come in and they’re just bringing all this personality into life in that Model-UN space. ALEX: Yeah, it’s always interesting stepping in because you want to feel like you fit in to what they’ve already established even though you’re not in the other episodes. You always want it to serve the story in a way that feels organic and you want it to serve the comedy that is written there. So a lot of the model-UN scenes are Devi and Ben going at it and they’re throwing out all these crazy things, and as a spectator you’re in there like: what’s going on. But for my character you have to rein it in a little bit. And it’s not happening, you can’t rein in people who are throwing paper at each other and threatening to nuke other countries, you’ve just lost control at that point. DANI: I think Mr Shapiro can relate! CLARA: Well we’ll get into weeds in a little bit, but first off (because the name of the show demands it) we’re gonna start with a round of “Never Have I Ever.” ALEX: Alright CLARA: So our version’s a bit different; there’s no losers, we’re not going to hold up our hand or whatever. Basically, everyone just answer every question with “I have” or “I’ve never” and if you’re listening and you want to tally up our scores, Go ahead, we’re not going to stop you. Dani I think you have the first prompt. DANI: Yes. Never Have I Ever...Gotten a tattoo. ALEX: I have never. CLARA: Really? Well I have, I have my Magicians tattoo. The Author of the Magicians books, I asked him to draw a plant that is in the series and he drew it and so I have it on my ankle. DANI: It’s a very personal tattoo to her. CLARA: Yes! I talk about it all the time! DANI: Well I have, obviously, I have 3 tattoos: I have the 4 Elements (Avatar style, down my back); a type writer with paper coming out that says “we are infinite” from perks of being a wallflower; and “just keep swimming” with a semi colon… I also technically have a stick and poke that refuses to go away, but it’s a crooked kingdom hearts crown that I really need to get covered up. CLARA: Alright, next prompt: Never Have I Ever… stood someone up on a date. ALEX: I have never! DANI: I have never either! CLARA: I don’t think I have either! Yeah! ALEX: It’s just a rude thing to do, you have to find a way out way before you get to a face-to-face! DANI: Exactly. CLARA: I’ve actually been on some really bad dates that I didn’t want to go on because I didn’t want to stand somebody up. DANI: Yeah, so have I! Alright, so the next one is: Never Have I Ever ghosted someone. ALEX: I also have never! I feel like I just always win this game, which I feel like you’re not supposed to win this game, but I’m fairly tame when it comes to dares and things. CLARA: I haven’t ghosted somebody but my husband insists that… okay, so we have a disagreement about this… he says– so I didn’t call him back for a while, he says he called me right after our first date. I did not get that message for several weeks so I don’t feel like I ghosted him. I mean obviously we are married so I think that sort of goes against it. But he feels like I left him hanging for a while. DANI: I definitely have, I don’t really have like funny stories about it, but I have before. CLARA: Tsk Tsk Never Have I Ever broken up with somebody not in-person. ALEX: I have never. DANI: I haven’t technically, I took some space from an Ex- once and told him via text that it wasn’t going to happen and we wouldn’t be getting back together, but it was mostly because he was not being very chill about things and I didn’t want to see him in person so I’m not sure if it counts. CLARA: I definitely have, I was in some long-distance relationships in college. I went to a woman’s college and was in relationships with guys who were not in my city. SO I’ve broken up with people over the phone, but it was at least a phone call. ALEX: I respect that, I respect that. DANI: You’re nicer than I am. CLARA: Some of them didn’t deserve it! DANI: Never Have I Ever stalked an ex’s new partner’s social media. ALEX: I have never, but I might have facebook-stalked people I was interested in, when they got in new relationships to see who the new person is. I can own up to that. CLARA: I’m trying to think if I have! Probably mildly. DANI: I have, I feel like everyone has to some extent. CLARA: so you think we’re liars? DANI: No, either creeped on—your ex’s page to see who it was. I feel like in some way everyone has. Yeah I definitely have, but I’m always that person to be like “You know I’m gonna facebook-check this person right now”. CLARA: Never Have I Ever gone out with an ex’s friend ALEX: I have never, I told you I’m not—you should just give me the trophy now, because… DANI: I kind of have - we never defined the relationship… but it was definitely meant something to me and I felt bad, so it probably counts. CLARA: Do you remember that people would call that the DTR. DANI: yeah CLARA: Defining The Relationship. CLARA: I definitely have, my friend-group in high-school was so incestuous. I feel like everyone dated everyone else. So that’s definitely happened. DANI: Never Have I Ever gotten sick on a friend. ALEX: Like thrown up, you mean? DANI: Yeah, like thrown up. ALEX: I don’t think so, I really don’t think so… I’ve probably thrown up in the vicinity of people, but not on people! CLARA: I can count the number of times I’ve thrown up on one hand, so… no. DANI: That’s insane! CLARA: Well I’m Emetophobic so… I try really hard not to! ALEX: That’s a strong stomach! DANI: I never have on somebody but I have in their car so I feel like it’s just as bad. Probably worse actually. CLARA: Yeah because that’s harder to clean up. If you barf on a friend they can just hop in the shower. If you barf on a car… ALEX: You gotta reupholster that sucker! CLARA: Yep! It’s never coming out! Never Have I Ever gone on a blind date. ALEX: I have never! DANI: I have not either. CLARA: So I sort of did, I don’t know if I would call it fully a blind date but I have been on a set up with somebody who I didn’t know well. DANI: I feel like that would be fine, I wouldn’t be opposed to doing that. CLARA: Yeah! It was fun, we’re still friends. We went on two dates and I think we were just way too different, but very good friend category. DANI: That reminds me, I went to prom with someone that I barely knew that was really good friends with my best friend because she just really wanted me to go to her prom. And so she said “Hey you should go with my friend Billy, you’d really hit it off!” and I think I’d met him twice and we went to Prom, but we’re still really good friends so it’s very similar. CLARA: I feel like that’s the way to do it. DANI: Never Have I Ever walked in on my parents doing something I didn’t want to see. ALEX: I definitely have not. CLARA: Either that or you’ve repressed it very severely. ALEX: My parents actually divorced when I was young so that wasn’t really an issue for me. And I guess that’s the one positive take-away from your parents divorcing early! CLARA: My parents divorced when I was 5 as well, but I will say my Dad used to hang around in just his underwear in the apartment, so that’s almost as traumatising. DANI: I have... And we don’t talk about it CLARA: Yeah, that one doesn’t need a story! DANI: My parents also divorced when I was really young. CLARA: Oh no! ALEX: It was your question so you can’t say you can’t talk about it, and then force us to talk about our trauma! CLARA: OH! Called out! DANI: I mean I have talked about plenty of my traumas, but that one I don’t think we should go into details with that trauma! ALEX: That’s fine with me. CLARA: Never Have I Ever had a friends with benefits. ALEX: I have never. DANI: I have but it never works out, I don’t suggest it. CLARA: I’ve done it, but you become something other than friends, whichever way it goes. DANI: Never have I ever drunk dialed/texted an ex. ALEX: no. ALEX: I haven’t, I’m very good about the way I compose myself apparently. DANI: Apparently! CLARA: I’ve never drunk-dialled or texted an ex, but I do have a penchant for… if I’m up past 11pm I cannot be on email or I will do something I regret. DANI: Interesting. If you haven’t done this, which apparently you haven’t! Respect. Because I actively make my friends take away my phone when I’m out. I’m like: just take it away! Don’t want it. ALEX: You just put it in those security bags from when you go to concerts and things! CLARA: Never Have I Ever been with someone 5 years younger than me. ALEX: Never. It’s always been slightly younger. DANI: I haven’t, just shy of it, but never. CLARA: Me neither, I was thinking back. I have been with somebody 4-5 years older than me… I was thinking back, and I was like “Oh when I was in College I dated someone younger”, I almost always dated someone older than me. And then I was doing the math and I was like: “Oh he was 2 years younger… that’s not that much.” DANI: That’s what I was doing, I know I dated someone really young semi-recently and then I did the math and I was like “Oh it’s only 4!” CLARA: Alright, that concludes our Never Have I Ever. I think you’re right, I think you won, even though there aren’t any winners or losers here. ALEX: Yeah, whoever’s keeping tally was just like “A big fat zero” under my column. I’m sorry I was boring and safe! CLARA: That’s okay, we’ll get some good stories from you in the interview portion. And just to start we love audition stories. What was your audition like, and what was the description of Dudley that you got? ALEX: Oh wow, I can probably pull it up actually, and find it for you. I remember, you know you get the audition, and at that point it’s just untitled. It’s “Mindy- Lang Fisher project”. And you see Mindy Kaling’s name ad you go “okay well this is going to be something” and you see Netflix and you go “okay well this is probably going to be something”. And I just got excited! (I’m having trouble typing because I’m talking at the same time). I remember just being really excited because like most people I am a fan of the office so I have obviously known about Mindy for a long time. So being able to be on something she has any involvement in is so amazing to me. The description of Dudley is: A nerdy college student at the conference. Which is not a whole lot to go on, but I know I’m nerdy and at a model UN conference, so I have an idea of what kind of nerd that would be! But you just go in, I went to the audition, and we did both scenes that I was in. It’s hard because you’re trying to create everything, as an actor you’re trying to create the room in your head and you’re trying to create the room in the audition. You’re trying to play all the different levels. It was just a nice, easy, audition. You feel like you’re going to be nervous, you’re trying to fight off the nerves because you want to obviously book the role, but it was a nice, calm audition for me. I feel like when I am not stressed or shaking and nervous then I always have a good shot of getting it. So I was very, very happy to get the call that I booked it. Because I want to be a part of something like this, and it obviously speaks for itself! CLARA: And clearly you were right! I’m going to go out on a limb here, based on your Never Have I Ever session, and say that you also seem like a bit of a nerd—do you think you identify with Dudley? ALEX: I do. When I was in high school I did National Arms society, I played Alto Saxophone, I was the vice-president of the National Arms society, and I was the President of our High School Band when I was a senior, and I definitely don’t think those were on the Jock shortlist. So I definitely felt like, yeah, Dudley could have easily been me growing up. But just in general I played nerdier, intellectual characters in general. Whenever I see the nerd it’s no longer something I’m offended by, I’m just like: “Yep I’m going to own it, this is me, I’m going to do this and see where it takes me!” CLARA: We’re all nerds here I think DANI: Yep. Overall, what was high school like for you? Not necessarily your personality, was it anything like what we see in the show? ALEX: It’s not, I grew up in Arizona, in the suburbs, and I have a twin brother, and it’s interesting because we didn’t even do the same thing. Well we did one thing, we both played Tennis, but I was in a band, I did National Arms society, I did all these AP classes—so did he, but he was in the weight room, and he played Tennis, and he did all these sports, and we kinda had really separate experiences. But it was nothing like what I imagined High School was supposed to be when you watched television, and you think “Oh everyone’s going to get bullied”. We had lockers but no one even used their lockers because they were all outside because it’s Arizona, so we didn’t really have the whole indoor thing. So for me it kinda just… going to school was just like how it was in Middle School. Because a lot of the friends I made growing up were at High School with me, so it didn’t feel like a very challenging, unsure time for me, it was like: I guess we’re just doing school again! DANI: So I’m sure someone has made that joke before, but if you had a twin brother, and you both played Tennis, but did you play Doubles? ALEX: He was better than me! And I hate to admit that on record, but he was better than me so the way the ranking matched up I didn’t get to play doubles with him, but we played doubles in our free time. I’m going to tell him to skip over this section so he doesn’t have to hear that. CLARA: alright, well we’ll give you the time stamp later! ALEX: okay CLARA: So. Obviously the model UN scenes in this episode are pretty intense. What were they like to shoot? Was it fun? Was it Weird? Describe that experience. ALEX: It was really, really fun because the energy was just… when you do a scene where you know there’s just lots of jokes and lots of chaos, I feel like everyone kinda leans into it and has fun with it. And it felt like—particularly the second scene where all the chaos breaks out—everyone’s trying to hold it in and be present, and once Devi takes the gloves off, everyone’s kinda looking at eachother like “Are we supposed to join in, are we supposed to cheer on?” What was really fun is Atticus Schafer (who plays Russia), he’s… because he’s Russia, you feel like he’s trying to instigate things a little bit more. And I think they cut some of the stuff he shot, but he really goes manic at the end with the table pounding. It felt so manipulative, I don’t even know how to put it into words—he was just so frantic, you could tell. It’s funny because of his stature, and the way they zoomed in on him at the moment, but it’s just so funny to see him pulling the strings a little bit, and egging the other security council members on to create the chaos. It was just so fun to watch him work too. CLARA: I feel like you’re gonna hate me for saying this Dani! But there’s definitely this moment where he gets Ben and Devi together by the ice machine in the hotel. I had this brief moment where I was like “You know, he and Devi could kind of work together” because they’re both really manipulative people DANI: WHAT?! CLARA: Or, not that they would work together, but they belong together at that moment. DANI: Oh my god, they could definitely do some scheming. Alright, so the next question is: How did you get into acting, and what do you think your dream role would be? ALEX: Well I came into acting multiple ways, I think I always wanted to be an actor when I was young. I did a play when I was in Kindergarten—you know how you do your kindergarten play. And I went “I’m going to be the narrator because he has the most lines and I’m going to get to do the most out of everyone in the class. And then I did Drama club and being in plays and… it was one of those things where I was like “I don’t know if I could be a professional actor” in the sense that I don’t live in California, I have no idea how to even get started. I always wanted to do it, so when I did graduate high school and I came to California to do school, I was a music major, and I was like “I still don’t know how to do the acting thing, I’m not a theatre major” and I didn’t do the prep to come here and audition and get into the program, I still didn’t know what I wanted to do. But I wanted to be a part of the entertainment side of things. So I was like “well I’ll get into screen writing”. I did improv in College, I did television production, so I knew how to film and produce videos. So I was like “I’ll just do everything around acting as well” so that way if I ever decide that I’m really going to go for it I’ll have a better idea of how to do it. And after graduating YouTube was just starting to get big and I was doing some sketches with my friends. And I thought “well I guess I’ll just go for it, I don’t really know how this works, I’ll figure it out as I go.” It’s a lot of trial and error. You’re auditioning for a lot of things and you don’t know how to audition, you don’t know that you’re supposed to cut your headshot the right size to fit your resume. You’re out there figuring it out. And that journey is the most interesting part for me. And then you start to book some things, and you get into a rhythm, and then it’s quiet for a long time and then it’s like “Okay, I guess not…”. So it’s a lot of trial and error and figuring out how to be an actor is the most interesting part. But once you get into things like this you realise “I have the opportunity to work with people that I never thought I’d be able to work with” it’s just the most rewarding part, other than creating a character that people love. CLARA: What was it like working with Mindy and Lang? ALEX: Well actually Mindy and Lang weren’t there the day I shot. Chris (one of the writer’s) and the director Kabir was there. I actually worked on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend the year before. CLARA: Oh wait! Wait. Who were you on Crazy Ex? I just re-watched that too. ALEX: I was one of the Abracadabros in the High school reunion episode. CLARA: OH! Gonna go back and watch your episode. ALEX: Yeah, I was Alden. But Kabir was involved in that show so it was kind of fun being able to transition from one show that he had done, and then to be directed by him on this series is cool It’s interesting because I got to meet Maitreyi, and she’s obviously had a life-changing experience being on this show. And it’s interesting because I was like “I wonder how she’s handling being the star of this show” and it’s funny because she’s just a normal person, a normal kid trying to figure it out. And being on set and having everyone focus on you, she didn’t seem like she was fazed by that she was just trying to do her job and have fun, and I think that’s really great for someone who is at her age stepping into this industry to be able to approach things that way. CLARA: I wonder how she’s handling all of the social media attention now. Because she has over a million followers on Instagram. I got anxious when my number of followers on twitter went over 500. I can’t imagine dealing with that level. ALEX: Yeah, and she’s in lockdown, she hasn’t even stepped outside really into the world of being a public figure. It’s a lot for her I’m sure, but I imagine there’s a lot of people around her helping her navigate it. DANI: The follow-up question was: what do you think your dream role would be? ALEX: Right. That’s a tough one. I feel like I would love to be on a well-respected sitcom. Like an HBO premium type sitcom. I love Veep. Veep is one of my favourite shows. A show like that where it’s just biting satire and comedy, and you just get to have a fun role on that. CLARA: You know what I could see you on that I’ve seen recently? I think you’d be great on The Great. The Hulu show. ALEX: Oh yeah! CLARA: That show is amazing, and I feel like you would fit right into that environment. ALEX: Well if anyone from The Great is listening, you can contact me and throw me in. DANI: I haven’t seen that one yet. CLARA: You have to watch it. DANI: Well this is a little bit off-topic, but I’ve been saying for years that I want to write a tv adaptation of The Secret History for years. It’s a book by Donna Tartt. Very famous book if you haven’t read it. It’s great. But I think you have the exact face that of who I picture when I would change Henry, who is one of the main characters. CLARA: Wait, do you know the book? ALEX: I don’t know the book I haven’t read it. CLARA: Okay, so Henry is a sociopath, just so you know that. DANI: No! I said the face, not the personality! ALEX: Tell me more! CLARA: You should also know that she thinks I’m like Henry. DANI: The joke was that you were like Henry and I’m like Richard. CLARA: And who’s Bunny? DANI: Like in real life? CLARA: I don’t know, we don’t have to answer that! ALEX: I’m hitting Wikipedia right now! CLARA: It’s a really good book, I think it’s set in the 70s in New England. DANI: It’s the late-80s, almost 90s. CLARA: Oh really? Okay. So it’s set in the 80s/90s in New England and it’s these kids from this classics department at this college. DANI: This boujie private college CLARA: Yeah so most of them are super-privileged. Richard is not, there’s a whole scene where he’s freezing over winter because he doesn’t go home and he gets a place that has no heat. But anyway they have a Bacchanal and there’s debauchery and eventually murder. DANI: It tells you about the murder literally the first page. CLARA: Yeah, it’s not a spoiler at all! DANI: They’re very into Greek mythology. CLARA: It’s a really good book, I highly recommend it! ALEX: well I like Greek Mythology. We can agree on one aspect of the character. DANI: Well I want to adapt it because in the book it is a bunch of white kids. So if I was going to remake it, I would make it much more diverse. And there’s a lot of queer subtext in it, and I would make it less subtext. CLARA: Oh yeah. ALEX: Well that’s one of the interesting things about being on Never Have I Ever. Obviously the representation is so prevalent. But I didn’t realise that until after it started airing. I wasn’t consciously thinking about “I wonder if the casting is going to be diverse” or if people behind the camera will be involved. But I think that was what made being on the set so much more enjoyable. Because it was just there and I didn’t have to think about it. And having Kabir direct and having Maitreyi lead, and even having myself there, you forget you’re in an environment where this is normal. And I watched it and realised “Oh there’s a lot of diversity in here!” It’s not token, it’s just normal. There’s lots of layers to the characters, it was a welcome surprise to me to watch the series when it aired in realise that afterward. CLARA: There is definitely something wild about environments where the hierarchical bullshit gets turned on its head. Because I went to a women’s college and I remember just how weird it felt when I left, and suddenly women were NOT in all of the leadership roles anymore. And people did not use SHE as their default pronoun as everything. It’s all those things that you start to take for granted when you finally get into an environment like that. So the next question is a hard left turn, we just wanted to do some fun questions at the end. We asked this of Dylan, and we answered it last time so we’ll just leave it to you: what song would you say was your high school anthem? Personal anthem in high school? DANI: Or just a song that you listened to a lot. ALEX: Wow I think this is kind of random, I don’t know if this was even accurate but I feel like it was. I listened to “Shake ya tail feather” by Nelly and Murphy Lee. For some reason that song was a BOP back then. It got me pumped up. We would play things in band for the football games, we would find songs to play. Someone would learn something and try to get everyone in the band to play it during breaks and timeouts. But I remember specifically listening to that song a lot. That and Ludacris. For some reason. But I listened to a lot of Jazz because I played Saxophone, so I needed something to balance it out somehow. Because I can’t listen to saxophone all the time. I got Luda and Nelly. CLARA: Do you still play Sax? ALEX: I lost my personal Saxophone, I lost it a long time ago, so I haven’t touched a saxophone in a long time. But I still remember how to play it so if I ever decide to buy another one I can probably hit the ground running. CLARA: Well it’s probably best that you can’t torture your family with that in quarantine. Because I think my husband got very sick of me playing the Cello all the time for the first month or so! DANI: Okay, as we have established, JKR is a big TERF, but we grew up on Harry Potter, and it looks like your family are fans too, I saw the cutest photo of your family in Weasley sweaters, which were so good! So, we have to ask: What’s your Hogwarts house, and what do you think Dudley’s would be? ALEX: Um I personally am Ravenclaw. There you go—Ravenclaw’s in the house! I feel like Dudley’s would be Ravenclaw as well… if not, then probably a Hufflepuff. Because it felt like he was trying to keep the peace a little bit, but was too timid to really corral things! CLARA: A Cedric Diggory! ALEX: Right! CLARA: And our last fun question: Do you know your astrological chart? Like your sun-sign and moon-sign. ALEX: You know, I looked this up a month ago for some reason. I know I’m a Scorpio— it’s my sun sign. I forgot what my moon and rising are. But I do know I am a Scorpio, so that is helpful in one sense. DANI: We are just obsessed with charts when it comes to characters and people. CLARA: Dani more than me! I mean I enjoy it but Dani is definitely the obsessive one on this side. DANI: I’ve gotten you into it more. ALEX: I’ve gone through phases, I won’t think about it for a while and then I’m like “I wonder if I put all my information, I wonder what’s going on astrologically” and then a week goes by and I have forgotten to check. CLARA: Co-star makes it so much easier to keep track of now. ALEX: Is that an App? CLARA: It is an app! It has snarky horoscopes! So highly recommend. DANI: Yeah it will send you a notification every day that’s calling you out on something. CLARA: It’s rude! DANI: Yeah it’s always rude! That’s a good way to put it. Alright so let’s get into the episode. Let’s talk about the plot involving Fabiola and Eleanor first. I love really getting to see some of these characters on their own while Devi is away. So first Fabiola tries to come out to her family and I love how they connected her brother via video chat. Ultimately, she is unable to come out. The way her father reacts to Fabiola, and kind of stopping Fabiola’s mom from continuing what she was saying really made me think he knew what she was about to say. He had a very understanding look on his face and he said: “We are so glad that you felt comfortable enough to tell us this” about AP Latin! What do you think of this scene Clara? CLARA: Well first of all I want to know what her brother thought about her switching to AP Latin! I feel like that’s an important detail that we didn’t learn. But you sort of brought this up earlier Alex, I feel like her Mom takes this so, so, so seriously. Even about this fairly minor thing, right? Switching from one AP class to another. And AP language class, who cares? They’re totally interchangeable as far as colleges are concerned. I don’t know why I’m going on this rant about AP. Whatever! We talked about this a little, two episodes ago where she goes on a manicure with her mom. Her mom just puts a lot of pressure on her period. So I can see why Fab’s response was to be really anxious about it and really want to please her. Because how is she going to respond to Fab coming out as Gay, if her response to switching to AP Latin was “I’m a bit disappointed, we were going to go to France.” DANI: Do you have any comments about this Alex? ALEX: I don’t know if it was during the manicure where she was talking about any boys that she’s into. You built in some of that tension of having to crush expectations, and this kind of compounds it. When she doesn’t come out, and there’s still disappointment, this is a negligible change in the grand scheme of things, so it just adds more tension for Fabiola to figure out when she’s going to have that moment. DANI: And Fabiola is pretty awkward, even with her friends afterwards. I feel like she feels that she let herself down a little, she seems a little bit lost in her mind. And on top of it all she sees Eve talking in what is perceived to be a flirtatious way to somebody else. I was really feeling for her for sure. And then we have Eleanor who, the next day, has an encounter with Paxton. I found this to be really interesting because it seems like Paxton is trying to make small-talk with Devi’s friends. And I think that shows that he might have some feelings for her. And especially after what happened earlier that episode (but we’ll get into that later). And the conversation with Eleanor and Paxton is obviously kind of intense. CLARA: That’s putting it mildly! DANI: Paxton seems cool to just drop the whole thing, and abort but Eleanor blows up at him and it is different than Eleanor just being dramatic. She’s hurt and confused and kind of takes it out on him. What do you think, Clara? CLARA: Well he’s kind of a dick, I mean not initially, but his whole “This is longer than I thought I would have to talk to you” thing? No, no. When you talk to people you have to make space for them. Eleanor has a lot going on in that moment. It is a big moment for her, and a big “what’s going on in my life” existential crisis. There’s also some funny moments in that scene. Trent. Trent is a funny moment in any scene. DANI: And then Eleanor calls him racist. Which kind of reminds me of how Ben called Eleanor and Fab anti-Semitic just a couple episodes ago. And then his response is “I’m part-Japanese”. Which, for the record, you can still be racist even if you are the thing! Trent’s response is what really kills me though. When she calls Paxton racist, the look on his face is like “MY BOY, NEVER!” because you know he’s such a ride or die. I have his line saved for later in our best lines segment, the way he responds to it. But Trent is honestly such a great character. I just want to say for the record I do like Paxton and I think he’s a worthwhile character and he’ll probably get a lot more development next season but there’s something about his response to Eleanor that just really ticks me off. “I didn’t think we’d have to talk this long” and how he doesn’t really care about why she’s upset. I get that it’s awkward and she totally made a big thing in front of his classmates, but it just rubs me the wrong way and I feel like this is definitely something Eleanor is going to remember about him. Any thoughts about that Clara? CLARA: I’m not sure Eleanor’s going to remember it, Fab is going to hold a grudge. And if Devi hears about it later, that’s it no more Paxton. DANI: I doubt that! CLARA: No more Daxton options. DANI: She seems to forgive him pretty easily, so I don’t know about that. ALEX: I do think you’re onto something with him even approaching Eleanor to make the comment. Because obviously he has been conscious about “oh it’s Eleanor’s mom” when he was eating dinner the previous night. There’s something developing there. He has an awareness of… not just Devi but also her circle and sphere. So him even noticing “Oh that’s Eleanor’s mom” and “they’re having a conversation”, does create some level of awareness of what’s going on in Devi’s circle. I will add though I think you’re right about Trent, he’s just a great character. And I always think it’s amazing when Actors can take dumb characters and make them believable. It’s always hard because you think “No one’s that stupid”. You really have to own it in a way that makes it authentic. Like Andy on Parks and Rec. You have to make it feel like: okay this person is really dumb but it’s not in a way that feels fake. CLARA: One of our friends referred to that trope of characters as “pure of heart, dumb of ass” and it’s just my favourite thing. ALEX: That’s amazing. DANI: It was after the half of it—that guy is SO dumb! CLARA: yeah because the dude int hat is definitely pure of heart, dumb of ass. He’s like a golden retriever but not quite as smart. DANI: Then after that Fabiola comes out to Eleanor. And this always cracks me up, this is a random fact (and you’ve probably heard it by now). Ramona and Lee have both said they are lactose intolerant and were actually eating the ice cream in the scene, and because of it they were just farting the entire day. CLARA: It me! They gotta give them some coconut milk ice cream or something next time. DANI: I know! CLARA: There are enough non-dairy alternatives that you don’t need to make actors do that. DANI: Also though, don’t actors usually not eat the food? ALEX: It depends, I mean, if it’s ice cream you really can’t help it because it dissolves. But a lot of times you’ll use a spit bucket and you’ll take some bites and then spit it out when you’re done so that you’re not having to eat the entire time. But yeah that’s rough on them, I mean I’m sure there’s some lactate around—I hope! DANI: I know people who are so lactose intolerant that Lactate doesn’t do a damn thing. CLARA: yeah, it doesn’t help everyone and you have to take it beforehand, so you have to plan. But you were talking about how actors normally don’t eat, but one of the wildest stories I’ve heard about an actor eating on set. So you still haven’t seen Killing Eve, but you have to, you have no more excuses Dani! But Jodie Comer who plays Villanelle… there’s a scene where she shoves a giant forkful of pasta into her mouth, and she actually choked on set during the scene during the take they play, and people didn’t realise she was choking until they cut it. So she’s fine obviously, but that is one of the most intense method stories. DANI: Sometimes you just gotta go method! ALEX: That’s crazy, what season is that? CLARA: I think it’s season 2… ALEX: Okay because I’m on season 2 so I don’t know if I’ve gotten to that yet. But I will be looking out for it for sure. CLARA: Well wait ‘til you get to Season 3, it’s so good. You’re gonna love it. I was just talking to a friend about this today, I love my murder wives. DANI: Well, besides the farting I just think the friendship between Fabiola and Eleanor is so pure and sweet and it’s probably my favorite platonic friendship in the series. They are just so supportive of each other. I love that Eleanor was just like “DONT YOU DARE APOLOGIZE TO ME” about Fabiola not having told her sooner. Then Fab is also there for El during finding out her mother is actually still around, and for her audition where she gets the lead! I was pretty upset that Devi kept ignoring them, but to be fair in that situation I probably wouldn’t have answered my phone either. But Eleanor absolutely KILLS her audition CLARA: She KILLS it! DANI: and I’m so happy for her but I’m so so sad for her. Also fun fact the actor who plays the drama teacher is actually one of the writer’s on the episode. ALEX: Mmhmm. Yeah, that’s Chris. DANI: So Clara do you have any more thoughts about Eleanor and Fabiola? CLARA: I just want to reiterate, ratify everything you said about their friendship. I think it’s so great… female friendship is magical. Friendship, period, is magical, but theirs is a very pure version of that. And especially for high school that’s impressive! I’m not entirely sure I believe in their drama-free friendship—or their friendship where the drama is not between them but is outside them! But I love it and I want it. ALEX: It’s a great contrast when you think about their relationship with Devi at this point forward. When you know their bond is that strong and they get along that well, and they’re that supportive of eachother. To see what comes after is what makes some of that tension a little more believable from that perspective. DANI: I rarely meet a group of three friends where everyone is just as close to one another. It’s usually two people are super-super close and they kind of share another friend. I think Devi kinda makes herself that person. So other than them of course, we have to talk about the MODEL UN TRIP! Considering that’s mostly what the episode is about. And I can’t get through this podcast without mentioning that I was basically born and raised in Davis and I live here currently. So hearing them be really annoyed they have to go to UC DAVIS and they kind of roast Davis made my day… because Davis is BORING AS HELL. There’s like 3 good restaurants… although we do have a really fine coffee place that I like to frequent. Davis is basically like this yuppie, white retirement neighborhood for the most part. All the diversity comes from the fact it’s a college town. You can really feel the lack of diversity right now since all of the students had to move back home. Also I’m positive that Mindy included Davis as a joke to dig at Hasan Minhaj because they are good friends, and Hasan was also born and raised in Davis, and went to college here as well. He actually did a stand up here. But funnily enough though my oldest brother went to high school with him, which is crazy. But yes. DAVIS SUCKS, and I had to tell everyone that. Also the picture they paint of Davis is just so inaccurate. The hotel they stay at is way too nice and there’s too many rooms. And I only know this because I worked at a hotel in Davis for about 2 years. CLARA: At one of the nicer hotels in Davis! DANI: At one of the nicer hotels, yeah! Also some of the shots of the city looked more like Sacramento, and that’s probably what they used. I mean you know what Davis is like, Clara, you’ve visited. CLARA: Well okay, so I will say you are the pickiest eater that I have ever met. So there are more than three good restaurants in Davis. I haven’t been to them because I eat with you when I’m there, but— DANI: Trust me, other people who are not picky will also tell you the same thing. CLARA: Look she doesn’t eat Onions or Garlic, so I feel like there’s probably good Italian there somewhere. The rest of it though, yeah Davis is boring. My parents made me apply to a couple UCs when I was going to college and I applied to Davis specifically because there was no way I would go there. It smells like cows, it’s not that exciting. My tiny-ass town in the bible-belt where I went to school is more interesting than Davis. ALEX: I’ve definitely driven through, and I can’t say I would want to even attempt to write a YELP review for the city. CLARA: How many stars would you give it? ALEX: I would give it an N/A because I wouldn’t stop. Don’t make me stop to even get gas. DANI: Yeah there’s nothing of note in Davis. So the first thing that actually happens in the episode with the whole model UN thing is Eric gets sick (which is not surprising at all) and can’t make it. And Ben straight up YELLS at Mr. Shapiro and cusses, and Mr. Shapiro just takes it… like WHAT. CLARA: He’s not a regular history teacher, he’s a cool history teacher! DANI: Then Devi of course decides she's gonna go because she doesn’t want to do chores that are awful that her mom has tasked her with doing like cutting some old ladies toenails. (gross). Then on the bus they show Devi and Ben’s academic pact list, which is just hilarious— CLARA: Oh that montage! DANI: – that they actually did that, but not surprising. Also I’ve seen people take it really really seriously and are like “i don’t like Ben because he’s in young republicans.” even though it literally said they split everything 50/50. And maybe Devi just put young democrats first… ALEX: Caled Dibs! DANI: to assume he’s republican because of that would be a bit harsh. From what he seems to be pitching in Model UN actually makes me think he’s not… but who knows. It also said he does acapella so now I feel like I want to see that! Also I’m really curious if Jaren actually spoke Chinese in the scenes that he spoke Chinese! Alex, did you get to be there for filming the entire episode, or just your parts? ALEX: just my parts in the security council. But obviously I met some of the actors who were in all of the model UN stuff, which was cool to see them in the other scenes to get some context. CLARA: It was shot in LA right? ALEX: Mhmm. CLARA: Okay so you didn’t actually go to Davis? You didn’t get to see…? ALEX: We didn’t take the five-star trip to Davis. DANI: a 6-hour drive to Davis California! CLARA: that smells like cow-shit the entire way! DANI: Yep! CLARA: Ben’s family is rich, and he is really into status, so I could buy him in a version of Young Republicans. Not like Trump republicans. DANI: I feel like anything he is fiscally conservative. CLARA: He might be a Zionist, we’ll have to hash that out sometime. DANI! Whoa! Then at the actual UN conference, Devi’s ability to fuck with Ben is truly a work of art. She really knows exactly how to push his buttons and it’s great. She yields to the chair, which I have ZERO idea what that means because I wasn’t that kind of nerd in high school… I don’t even know if our school had model UN program. CLARA: We definitely did. DANI: But everyone was SHOOKETH when that happened. Did either of you do model UN? ALEX: As the chair, I had to make sure… the Chair in model UN knows all the rules, so I felt like I needed to take it upon myself to know all of the rules, so that if anything came up, I had a frame of reference to say something. It’s been a while but as far as I know (someone can fact check me if I’m wrong). Typically you would just yield back to the United States in that scenario because it’s their time. You might try to raise your Pocker?[a] To get time to make your statement or whatever, and then you would just give your time back to United States. So my interpretation of why that was so rough (and again you’ll have to check me, you guys!) is because she basically circumvented the standard and norms by yielding back to me, it kind of said “well I don’t even respect you enough to yield my time back to you.” DANI: That’s pretty bad! CLARA: Are there any super weird rules in the Model UN rulebook that we should know about? ALEX: I don’t know if there are any super weird rules. It’s been a while since I read them so I’m not up to date, I’m no Kofi Anan at this point. But no, I don’t know. CLARA: Well Dani to your point about Devi being able to fuck with him. That’s how the enemies-to-lovers trope can work, right? It’s predicated on this idea that you have been paying so much attention to people for your entire enmity… This is one of the things I say about podcasting and media in general, because you can’t pay that much attention to something, to be diving into it week-after-week-after-week, day-after-day-after-day-after day (in their case because they’re in school together) and not come out with a greater appreciation for it. So her ability to fuck with him is also a symbol of her ability to just fuck him I guess. I don’t know DANI: Too far! CLARA: Too far! It was the word-play, I couldn’t… I was going to be like “to love him” but I was like “No I gotta get the workd-play in”! Always my downfall. DANI: So the whole party subplot is pretty funny. I just want to point out another hotel fact: ALL THE ALCOHOL just being in one storage closet that’s close to their rooms?! LIKE WHAT. They kept it in the basement under lock and key and only managers could get it at the hotel I worked at. I also hope that everybody is super are aware of how many fanfictions this single very short supply closet scene has birthed… like a lot. CLARA: You’re gonna read one on the air sometime? ALEX: Oh no. DANI: Maybe. I’m going to skip over the little hotel room party for a min, we’ll get back to it, but I could not stop laughing at the juxtaposition of Devi getting angry after the texts from Paxton, and she’s like giving an evil stare, and then it cuts to Ben’s face who is so excited and happy to have Devi as an ally. Then of course, VIVA WORLD WAR 3, and she crushes his soul. DECORUM, guys! How many times did you have to say Decorum that day, Alex? ALEX: Oh man I said it a lot, I said it for everyone’s coverage. I said it in my sleep when I left. But that scene is so funny because there’s so much chaos, and Maitreyi when she’s nuking Belgium… You know it’s a piece of paper, someone in the wing carries it. A couple times it just wouldn’t land. The one that ended up being used in the episode was just BANG-ON. It hit Rachel Zimmerman, who plays Belgium, right in the face. I remember once they cut, everyone was like “wow that was a great throw!” We were all super impressed that it nailed her. And we felt bad for Rachel, but like… she nailed ya, she got ya, you got nuked! CLARA: It’s such a good scene, it’s just so much fun to watch! DANI: Yeah, all hell breaks loose! So this is probably my last comment about Davis… John McEnroe says: “what happens in Davis doesn’t stay in Davis, especially juicy rumours”… Let me tell you right now… Nothing happens in Davis worthy enough to be considered juicy. EVER. BUT before we move on to the Benvi and Daxton of it all (because obviously we do)… Where do your allegiances lie, Alex? Do you have an opinion on either ship? ALEX: well, in the interest of self-preservation, I am unable to weigh in. As an impartial arbiter of the model UN. So if I had the gavel I would bang it right now and we would move on to the next topic. DANI: Well Benvi is the next topic! DANI: it wouldn’t be my half of the podcast if we didn’t talk about Benvi. I’m building a timeline to prove all the haters wrong, and like Clara said yes I am like the image of Charlie Day from It’s always Sunny with all the red strings around him… I’m aware that that’s who I am! First of all, Ben and Devi have a ridiculous amount of comfort for two people who are mortal enemies...he’s so close to her face on the bus when he’s bantering with her and she doesn’t care in the slightest. Also like literally the second Devi walks into the Model UN conference, he immediately notices and makes a bee line for her. Sure to talk shit, but still. CLARA: Well this is what I was saying, right? Like you can’t pay that close attention to somebody and not develop some feelings of intimacy. I’m saying it the right way this time! With all decorum! DANI: And then Ben literally brings up Paxton the second he has a chance to and the sneer just I don’t know man, it feels like jealousy. These two are absolute children with each other most of the time, but I’m telling you. Pause it and pay very close attention when the model UN group is toasting to Ben and Devi in the hotel room. They look over at each other with these meek but oh so genuine smiles! Like, I don’t think that Devi is having feelings for Ben yet, but for Ben, THEY ARE THERE. CLARA: She sends me pictures of Ben looking at Devi like 3 or 4 times a week! To be like: Look at me! DANI: That’s not what I was sending that picture for! CLARA: No I know that that one wasn’t! But you still do! DANI: I’m always like: “Believe me!” ALEX: “Firstly Dani, it’s 4AM, okay, I need to go to sleep.” CLARA: you know what I bet she has sent one at 4AM, she’s up late. DANI: I probably have. I don’t think that Devi is having feelings for Ben yet, but for Ben, THEY ARE THERE. It takes seemingly all his courage to go sit down next to her and start a conversation, and he says “it turns out we’re a pretty good team for two people who hate each other.” HES BASICALLY BAITING HER INTO SAYING “I don’t hate you.” which she does. Then after they decide on an allyship… he brings up Paxton! Like really bro? He won’t admit it to himself, but he is 100% into her. He’s also clearly upset Mr. Shapiro broke up the party so soon, and Devi went to bed HAPPY that night… the language there. Okay that is my rant about Benvi for this episode. CLARA: I will say: Shira. Have you ever had one of those friends who you see them constantly, you’re talking to them constantly. They’re always talking about their partner, but you never meet them—they just don’t seem to exist? That’s Shira. DANI: But she does exist. She just doesn’t really get introduced yet. CLARA: She does, but I agree with you that Shira is not a serious girlfriend who Ben loves. She’s like a placeholder. DANI: oh definitely. I mean I think they pretty much admit that. Do you have any opinions on Benvi now? ALEX: You know I think that their relationships is one of those ones that—like Clara is saying—you’re around them so much you kinda build an affinity with them. But I think it’s also deeper because when it’s competitive it’s always much more intense. Because there’s a certain degree of respect involved in that, and you know you can be bested. When Ben has dinner with Devi[b] . She pretty much does eat his lunch that first session because he kinda gets thrown off guard, and he’s like “Oh she can come in here and not know what she’s talking about and still take control of everything.” And I think there’s a level of that where they realise “we are a good team, but also it’s probably because you are my equal if not better”. And I think that relationship makes it fun to watch it develop. Because you know there’s still some tension there but the admiration is starting to peek out, and then you can enjoy those moments where you see Ben kinda backing off the harsh behaviours that he normally exhibits around her. And the same with Devi. DANI: Yeah they are finally starting to see eachother as humans and not as adversaries. CLARA: Yeah they have a moment of vulnerability. DANI: so moving on we have to talk about Daxton. There isn’t much in this episode. I was actually really surprised when he invited Devi to hang out in the lounge with his friends. I can’t tell if he’s trying to like make her one of the boys, or if he does like her. Especially since he also tries to make small talk (like I said earlier) with her best friends. They don't interact again til she gets back to school, even though she tried multiple times to make contact with him. Paxton is really genuinely hurt here,”i thought we were friends, but you were just using me.” I really honestly love the gender flip of this situation here. Typically as a trope, it’s usually men lying about women. So it’s nice to see that it can be just as shitty when a woman does that to a man. Also, Devi is way too defensive here. She’s always so quick to try and defend herself and she definitely seems to rarely think before speaking. I also feel like there is more to Paxton’s reaction here… I’m not sure what… maybe it’s not the first time this has happened to him. CLARA: Well I think it is pretty clear from the reactions of the other girls on the Model UN team that most of the girls or at least a lot of the girls at the school see him as a status symbol or just a hot body, and that’s basically it. And I imagine that must feel pretty awful. That’s the whole thing—the reason you don’t want to be objectified as a woman is that you don’t want to be objectified! You want to be treated as a whole person and seen as a whole person and get to have a life and interests and not just be somebody that people are attracted to or are attracted to the idea of. It’s hard to have a relationship with somebody who doesn’t see you as a real person. DANI: Yeah and it’s also cool because it also speaks to turning tropes on its head, like how the show YOU points out how romantic comedies are really creepy in some aspects. And I feel like it’s similar in that it’s pointing out how wrong it is to hold a guy up to that standard, like people do in romantic comedies. ALEX: I think it’s interesting the way their relationship changes even from the beginning of the series. I remember watching the first episode and when Devi says she wants to have sex with Paxton and he kinda just like “okay”. Like is that a dream sequence? Like what just happened? This doesn’t normally happen in these kinds of things. And then to see her basically: “I don’t know what I’m doing, I’m just being a girl, or whatever, just wanted to be with you” and he just being cool with it. And seeing him take that realisation of “well she is into me but she’s not into me to the point where she’s ready to do stuff and use me physically”. And to watch him, it kinda feels like he’s softening up and ingratiating her to his friend group. You saw him talking to Eleanor’s mom. Getting into the idea of “ could this work? Can this work? I feel like maybe I can develop something” and then kinda get that shattered a little bit, and oh maybe she’s like all the other girls even though it seemed like she was much different. DANI: Yeah. That’s a really good point. Do you have anything else to say about Daxton, Clara? CLARA: I feel like I said what I had to say, and that’s a really good note to end on! I think you have a really insightful analysis, Alex. DANI: Yeah. ALEX: I try. DANI: So the other two things of note in this episode. It’s kinda of the start of the first rift between Devi and her friends. I was surprised that they forgave her so fast after this! And after that Nalini forgives Devi and ungrounds her. She doesn’t press Devi for why she seems down, but it looks like she wants to. What do you think of these two turning points? CLARA: I’m not super surprised that her friends forgave her, because that’s kind of the nature of high school friendships, right? There is a lot of: hurting people and forgiving them; Hurting people and forgiving them. Because you’re a teenager and you don’t know how to act like a human, you’re not fully baked. Plus they clearly have such a long history, right? As for Nalini, that was a little bit more surprising to me. Just because we haven’t seen her respond with that kind of softness to Devi before. And I think we’re getting into the territory in the next few episodes where we will start to see more of what Nalini and Devi’s relationship was like before Mohan died, so I feel like this is setting us up for that. DANI: what about you Alex, do you have any thoughts about the end of the episode? ALEX: I think you’re right as far as the way Eleanor and Fabiola forgive. I think you get a lot of first strikes in High School, it just doesn’t really matter. And I always think about how the structure of a show is working. It’s the middle of the season so they’re not going to have a huge blowout this early. Sometimes you hate to do that because then you start taking yourself out of what they’re trying to create and craft for their story. But, you know, they’re not going to have a big blowout now, so it seems reasonable. But you do start to plant the seed of: this is the first strike, so now they’re going to start counting. It’s no longer practise. So it feels like that’s the first strike for them and their relationship. And I think it’s surprising with Nalini for us to, again, start sewing those seeds of how they’re going to contrast her and the way she accepts certain things as opposed to other things. It’s always fun for me to watch how they develop characters and story-lines and plot lines int hat way, because you know there’s going to be ways they challenge what they’ve established. DANI: Before we say goodbye and get into fashion, if you could steal anyone’s wardrobe on the show, who’s would it be, Alex? ALEX: I actually am in need of a suit, like a nice, good suit. So I was happy to wear a couple suits. Obviously Salvador is an amazing wardrobe and costume designer, I watched his stuff—I JUST finished watching four weddings and a funeral when I got the audition— DANI: Such a good show! ALEX: I was in the middle of watching actually, I don’t think it was over yet. I was like “Oh my gosh everyone looks so nice on this show, he’s going to throw some suits on me! I’m gonna look like!” it was Aladdin and the Genie, he’s doing the ruler and tape measure and that kinda stuff. So I would go with my wardrobe, if not I would probably have to go with Paxton, he has some nice fits. CLARA: They are some really nice suits! They’re very fitted and very dapper and definitely not the things that high school or college students can afford! ALEX: Right! CLARA: Alright, so lastly (and then we’ll let you go!), is there anything else going on in your career, in your life, that you want to plug to the audience before you go? Something that might be coming up for you? ALEX: It’s crazy because of the covid stuff, there’s not a lot of filming going on. But I was fairly lucky to have done a handful of things before we all got locked down. Probably the most knowable for me is, I’m in a horror film on HBO max called Snatchers. It’s super, super funny, it’s two female friends. One gets pregnant over night with an alien. DANI: OH! ALEX: it’s out there, but it’s such a fun ride! And I get to have some fun on there. And I encourage anyone who is thinking of getting HBO Max. that’s up there, so definitely check it out. But I’m all over TV, here and there, so you can look me up on imdb or you can look me up my Instagram, I post what I’m up to. CLARA: Well thank you so much for coming to join us to talk about this show! ALEX: Yeah, thanks for having me! I had a lot of fun! And I think this is my first official Podcast appearance! So I guess I should say: thank YOU guys for having me! DANI: We’re really glad that you actually watched the show, because so many people were like “Oh I didn’t actually watch it!” ALEX: No I’m a fan! Me and my friends and family are fans of the show! CLARA: That’s awesome! Well we will let you go. But thanks again, thanks for being here. DANI: Yeah thank you! ALEX: Thank you! CLARA: Alright, just us now! DANI: Yep, so let’s get into fashion! CLARA: Let’s do it! DANI: One of the things I loved was Devi’s pink shirt at the beginning, she was wearing her hair in a ponytail as she rarely does, and I actually like it a lot in the ponytail, but she had some really ugly shorts with it. But it’s okay! I also lived Devi’s outfit at the table when she’s talking to Fab and El. I can’t remember off the top of my head what it looked like but I know I liked it. CLARA: It’s the black t-shirt that has bright red or pink… It’s like a ringer t-shirt. DANI: Oh yeah, right, the Ringer Tee. And The scene where Mr Shapiro and Ben are arguing. He’s wearing this art student get up! It’s a black long-sleeve… and he’s always wearing these outfits that look extremely hot! Not attractive hot, but warm hot. CLARA: Mr Shapiro’s wardrobe does a lot in establishing his character. DANI: He’s that pseudo-intellectual, that’s the way he dresses. And then it looked like there were naked ladies on Ben’s shirt. It kind of looked like it but I couldn’t really tell. I’m not saying that’s an outfit that I liked, but it was interesting. Devi’s model-UN outfits, both of them, I really like them, they look really good on her. She looks really nice when she’s all put together and professional looking. CLARA: One of the comments you had on here is that her skirt is really short I’m really curious how she gets that past Nalini, that is not a cheap outfit! DANI: I’m wondering if she will leave the house wearing leggings underneath? CLARA: But how does she get Nalini to buy that for her? DANI: Well the other one, she made it into a shorter skirt. This one I’m not sure because she decided last minute to join this trip, so maybe she bought something when she got there. CLARA: Mmmm. In Davis. DANI: In Davis! There’s nowhere to shop in Davis except for target. I think Ben also looks really handsome in his model-UN outfit. Dudley, Alex Skinner’s character, has a really nice outfit on as well the first day. Actually I think both of them are really nice, but the first one he’s wearing a dark teal plaid button up with his suit, and dark red and navy tie. And I really liked it. CLARA: Yeah, his suits are fire! DANI: MMHMM. And I love Fabiola’s coral pink shirt that she wears, it just looks really good on her. She never wears anything too crazy, but. CLARA: Yeah. Did you see, by the way—okay so nobody who is listening to this can see, but I wore overalls in honour of Fabiola in episode 3? 2 or 3? DANI: Yeah I think it was 3. 2. I think it was 2 actually. I don’t own a pair of overalls. CLARA: I just got two pairs of short-alls, because SUMMER. DANI: I thought about buying short-alls, I saw some really cute ones, but I feel like—because I’m so short—that they won’t fit me well. I guess I’ll have to see. I love Eleanor and Fabiola’s pyjamas. CLARA: They’re so cute! DANI: And then Eleanor’s audition outfit is really cute—she has a long skirt, this red long-sleeved turtle neck and a red headband with a print. CLARA: I think that’s my favourite, other than maybe Dudley’s suit (because I think his suits are great) I think that maybe is my favourite outfit in the entire episode. DANI: I like also Paxton’s shirt and Devi’s sweater in their scene together in the end. But I think actually my favourite outfit is Nalini’s outfit at the end of the episode when she’s talking to Devi. It’s not something I would wear, but it’s really flowy and nice. She’s wearing jumpsuit-like pants. I don’t know what those are called. CLARA: Like Wide-Leg pants? DANI: Wide-leg pants, and a really long flowy shirt that she’s tucked into it. It just looks really nice on her. Other than that I really like Devi’s Model-UN outfit, the first one she wears. CLARA: Alright, so one-liners? DANI: One-liners. So my first one written down is: “Fab, What’s wrong? You usually house a bag of Doritos in like 20 seconds!?” CLARA: Okay, so one of my favourite ones is Fab’s response to this: “Now it is time for Flavor City”. DANI: Yes, I thought of flavour-town, like Guy Fieri when I thought of that! CLARA: Oh god, oh god! Guy Fieri and Fabiola should not be associated! DANI: No. And then I liked: “What’s the point of spending the night in DAVIS if I’m not winning the best delegate gavel.” -Ben. Which, is just obvious because no one wants to spend the night in Davis. And then of course Trent, as I mentioned earlier: “I’m sorry I didn’t realize you were Asian, bro. I’ll try to be more observant in the future” CLARA: pure of heart, dumb of ass! DANI: This is really what makes me think he’s smart, and just not aware of his surroundings sometimes. CLARA: He’s high all the time! DANI: He is high all the time! But the language that he uses there: “I’ll try to be more observant in the future”, he also has these moments of complete emotional intelligence. I think that’s why I made him a cancer moon. CLARA: He cries into his… bong. Late at night. DANI: He does have some moments though, obviously we will bring it up later when they come through. But that one really struck me. He really is good friends with Paxton, he really cares about him, obviously! CLARA: Okay, more one-liners! Getting off-track! DANI: The next one that I have is Ben saying: “Bad morning, Enemy.” What?! I had a lot more from Ben in that section, but Clara made me cut it down. CLARA: Yeah I made you cut it down because you had like thirty! DANI: Okay, I did not have thirty! I counted, it was fifteen! , so half of that! The next one is: “You are buffering, Eleanor” from Fabiola. Because Eleanor is just staring off, and it looks like she has this complete existential dread. CLARA: Well of course Fabiola would describe her best friend in robot terms. DANI: yeah, True! And then when Russia, who doesn’t have an actual name other than Russia says: “I’d like to lead a joint initiative… to get turnt” CLARA: I actually didn’t see that you had that, and I wrote it down too! That might be the best in the entire episode, it was just really good! And the delivery was just perfect! DANI: Yeah, it was! Another one that I put in here, just purely for delivery is from Ben: “My dad let me have a sip of cristal at new years.” CLARA: Oh Ben! DANI: I just—this kid! And then Eleanor, when she says: “Finally a gay friend, it really fits my brand as a theater wench.” Amazing, that’s amazing. And then Beth, one of the Model-UN characters is like: “THIS IS WHAT WINE TASTES LIKE?!” But same, because I really don’t like wine. CLARA: You only like alcohol if it’s 90% sugar. DANI: This is true. I do like sparkling wine usually, but they do tend to be on the sweet side. And then there’s: “I don't hate you, I just think you’re pretentious and unlikable.” From Devi! And then Ben in the same conversation says: “I only became good at mandarin to spite you.” And then my last one is: “Russia, you’re a narc, but if you give me your nukes, I’ll let you have my email address.” CLARA: See, I’m telling you they deserve eachother. DANI: He’s like: “I thought I had it!” CLARA: Okay, I only have two more, and one of them is not one line. Fab’s mom: “Did that Alex Gomez get you pregnant? It’s always the short ones!” I just love the whispered: “It’s always the short ones”! And then the scene when they’re on the bus, and Ben says “Who are we!” and the team goes: “Sherman Oaks High!” “And what are we doing?!” “Model-UN!” and then Devi walks on and he says “What are you doing here?” and they all say “MODEL-UN!” they’re not wrong! DANI: Ben, a cheerleader for his own team. So we are at MVP time. This was rough for me. I was split between all 3 girls… mostly Ramona and Maitreyi. They are both so good in this episode. In the end I choose Ramona though because she shows a lot of range in this episode, and you get to see a lot more of Eleanor in general, and how deeply hurt she is… I feel like you can really see how much her cheery self is kind of a mask. It reminds me of Eliot in the Magicians when he says “his persona was his greatest project”, because he’s also very dramatic. CLARA: I think that’s a good one. I was also split. Honestly, real-talk I would probably give it to Maitreyi in this episode, because I think she is really fantastic. But you also know that I like to give to guest stars, just because I feel like we don’t get many opportunities to call them out. So I think I’m going to give mine this week to Atticus, because— DANI: I loved Atticus, he was so good! CLARA: Oh he was so good as Russia! DANI: He’s so good, I mean I’ve watched a lot of things with him. The Middle, he’s so funny on that. That was a long time ago, I don’t think I ever finished watching that show, but when I did watch it. CLARA: I just thought that he was so, so funny in this episode. It’s really hard to play a character that is that insincere, and sell it and make it fun. But he did a great job. So I am giving it to Atticus. DANI: He really did! There were a couple of lines I had in there disregarding him, like when Devi says “This is why everybody at your school hates you!” CLARA: you know what I should do to make you really hate me? DANI: What? CLARA: I should give my MVP to Davis. DANI: No. Davis does not deserve it! CLARA: Okay so I am going to lead our final topic for this week. We were talking about what we should do. I really think the big meat of this episode in terms of what’s important for us to have a deep conversation about is Coming Out. Because Fab’s story of coming out is such a… Obviously it’s not fully universal, but for Queer people it’s a universal thing that happens. And I love that it’s a part of the show, but it’s not everything. And we get to see a bunch of different coming outs from her over the season. And even in this episode—even though one of them is a failure. I think this episode does a good job of showing both how to make space for someone to come out (and how to affirm someone who comes out to you) and also some pitfalls we talked about with Fabiola’s parents.. Like, Eleanor does a really good job of being there for Fabiola, and you’ve mentioned some of these things already, but: The way that she tells her to stop apologising for not having told her sooner. DANI: Which is something that queer people get told a lot: Stop apologising CLARA: Yeah that’s probably true! I think it was really good because in that moment she really understood what you were saying, Fabiola does feel like she let herself down. Even though she’s not directly addressing that, like Fabiola’s conversation with her parents and how that went. I feel like she still makes space and acknowledges those feelings and the complication of them. And yeah, going to her parents: we really see how much her mom puts pressure on her in all these different ways, and why having that experience of having that conversation about something that is relatively a non-issue (like switching to AP Latin), how that is going to reinforce for Fab how difficult this is going to be, and make her more worried about disappointing her with something bigger. What did you think, Dani? DANI: Of her coming out to Eleanor? CLARA: Well yeah, is there anything you want to say about coming out in general? We’re both queer, we’re all queer here. I’m queer, you’re queer. DANI: Well the thing I love about coming out, is sometimes it can be really difficult for you to come out to certain people. But there’s something about coming out to other queer people that is really lovely. It’s almost like this instantaneous form of family. You know? You just have this instant community. Which is really nice because so many people don’t have great coming out experiences. Their parents aren’t accepting; their parents aren’t going to come around. And sometimes even friends aren’t happy about it. I really do love the way Eleanor handles it. She makes the proper space for her friend to feel safe and to come out to her. I mean all of her friends are pretty good at it later on too. CLARA: So yeah, maybe we should talk about that. What makes a good reaction? I mean while our audience probably skews a little younger. When you’re young you don’t necessarily know how to respond to somebody who comes out to you. And if there are any parents listening, it can be a hard thing to navigate. So what for you? If you come out to somebody, what are you looking for from them? DANI: I was really similar to Fabiola, which I think I said in another episode. It wasn’t something I felt comfortable saying to my mom because she would just always say little things that made me not want to tell her that. And not even just that, there were a lot of things that I didn’t talk to my mum about. It’s hard for me to completely speak to it, because I am very lucky, because the side of my family that wouldn’t be okay with it: I don’t know them. And all of my immediate family, all of the family that matters to me have all been very accepting and welcoming, and it’s been really nice. I’ve had issues in other aspects. Like say having a girlfriend whose family was not accepting. I’ve had more issues in those kinds of avenues. CLARA: I feel like growing up through high school, I mostly had pretty good experiences. There were straight people who harassed—not me specifically, but in general used “Gay” as an insult and all that kind of bullshit. DANI: Yep. Unfortunately still happens. CLARA: Right. I think I talked about how my coming out to my parents was sort of accidental, but they were both chill about it (which I expected them to be). But when I went to college, I was in Virginia, in the bible belt. And while my school in general was pretty liberal, there definitely were some more religious people there. And even people whom I just didn’t expect to have issues with it at all. Like I had some really close girlfriends who definitely got over themselves pretty quickly. I had a girl friend who me and another friend would… I don’t think we ever actually did anything but we’d just be flirty and touchy just for fun because, why not? We were both cool with it. And we had another friend who got really uncomfortable with that sometimes. DANI: I’ve had friends like that too. CLARA: Yeah, and one of those friends said at one point: “Why can’t you just keep it to yourselves?” And I remember telling her that was bullshit. But in terms of how to come out or how to respond to someone when they come out, or how to make space. I think the how to make space is really a lot about making it clear… to some extent I think you make space for somebody by showing that you care about queer issues before they come out. That’s the best way to make space for somebody, is to be clear that you are an ally and you care and you believe that queer issues are important and that queer people have their full humanity. Beyond that, if it’s not something big in your life, I think the biggest thing is just that taking some of the pressure off. So that when someone is having a serious conversation with you or whatever it is. A lot of it has to be just sitting back and listening and saying “it’s okay” before they come out with whatever it is that they are going to come out with. Just reminding people that it’s okay and you love them and you care about them. And then when they say whatever they say… I feel like a lot of it for me has been—and not everyone feels this way, this is not me saying this is everyone’s experience—but for me, I want people to not make a big deal out of it, just to be like “Okay, cool”. And I think Eleanor does a really good job of that in this episode. DANI: She does. There is the Love, Simon sequel: Love, Victor the show. There’s a moment… I want to say it’s in the last or second-to-last episode. He comes out to his best friend, and his best friend basically just hugs him, and is like “I’m so glad you felt that you could tell me that”. It was really such a beautiful scene, I think that’s all people really want, they just want to be acknowledged and know that it’s safe with you. And that’s a big thing in general. If you’re in a friendship, you should have that with someone, you should have: “I can tell you anything”. I don’t think I could be really good friends with anyone that I just wouldn’t feel comfortable saying those things to. It’s a long process—coming out can be a really long process for people. CLARA: Oh my god, so protracted! DANI: yeah, and there’s also the experiences of people growing up in really religious households. For them it’s like: they try to repress it, or they don’t believe it, like “I’ll get over it”. There’s so many different versions of it that it’s hard to break it down. It’s never going to be the same for any two people. There’s some really good resources out there as well, the Trevor Project has really good pamphlets and articles about: If you’re considering coming out. CLARA: We’ll link some in the episode description. DANI: yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, and there’s nothing wrong with not coming out either. If you’re not comfortable, don’t do it. CLARA: Yeah, I think that’s really important, right? Fabiola feels she let herself down, or maybe let other people down. But you’re not letting anyone down if it takes time, right? That’s totally normal. And I feel like that’s actually a really important thing to say, when we’re talking about media. In a lot of media you have people who are in relationships with someone who isn’t out yet, and because of the compression of narratives, when you have that situation, so often you have one person putting pressure on another person to come out. And while that does happen to an extent, I think it’s important to know that it is totally okay for you to come out on your own timeline. Whatever that is. And if a partner can’t handle it, that is not a reason for you to come out faster. DANI: No. And I mean, you’re going to run into that. Unfortunately you’re going to find someone that you might want to date or be with, and they don’t want to date someone who’s not out because maybe it was really hard for them. And it can be very triggering for people. Going back into the closet, as people say. They don’t want to experience that. And that’s fine as well, but as long as you don’t feel pressure and that person doesn’t pressure you. CLARA: Yeah, I think the way to put it is: relationships are always emotional, obviously. And relationships that involve that dimension of one person being out and the other person not, get more emotional around that because of all the reasons you mentioned Dani, but I think the best way to see it if you’re in a relationship like that is just: Different needs. Different needs, different boundaries. And it doesn’t mean—if someone else is out and they’re not comfortable with the fact that you’re not out, okay they have different needs than you and maybe you can’t meet those right now but it does not mean you are wrong. DANI: Exactly: CLARA: So we’ll probably stop there. We’ll put some resources on the episode description, on the fireside website. But also, if you’re going through this and you need somebody to talk to, feel free to reach out to us. We are always happy to listen. DANI: Exactly. And with that, I think we’ve come to the end of our show. We thank Alex Skinner for joining us earlier, it was great to have him! Listeners, thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode, you can subscribe online wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow us on Twitter or instagram @nhie_podcast. Bye! CLARA: ‘Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast’ is produced and hosted by Dani Lowry, with Co-host Clara Sherley-Appel. Saxon Ahern is our sound engineer, and Lanier Sammons wrote our theme. CLARA: Mind slut! ALEX: I’m sure there’s some lactate around, I hope. ________________ [VS(1]Couldn’t hear this bit well… around the 55.40 timestamp. [VS(2]Can’t make out what is being said here—around the 1.04.20 mark [a]Couldn’t hear this bit well… around the 55.40 timestamp. [b]Can’t make out what is being said here—around the 1.04.20 mark