00:00.51 James Whoa. Welcome back everyone to merge conflicts, your weekly developer podcast about all things in the world development. Happy December, Frank Kruger. 00:09.06 Frank It happened. We're in the winter of 2025 already. That was a fast fall, James. I feel like fall came and then winter came faster. 00:20.07 Frank Yeah. 00:20.59 James Gone. Boom. It's good to go. I hope the happy holidays here, Thanksgiving in the States or wherever maybe you're celebrating any other holidays in the world, but, uh, 00:26.54 Frank yeah 00:30.12 James I am now in Seattle actually, but I'm not because we pre-recorded this way before the holidays. So I was on a holiday, but Frank and I are definitely hanging out with Heather either today and or Wednesday, whatever day Frank is crossing the water in December because totally on his calendar. 00:45.33 Frank It is. It is. Calendars are good for things that I mostly ignore until the date night before. and I'm like, oh my god, I gotta do what tomorrow? I'm sure that all that has happened. And it'll but be a really fun hanging out with you and Heather, as it always is. 01:02.03 James As it should be. That's right. ah Well, I'm super excited because last week it was supposed to be a lightning topic, but then we talked about Swift for an hour, and I'm still debugging a bunch of Swift stuff. But ah this week, yes, this week, no Swift, but swiftly getting on to 01:13.00 Frank As is the way with Swift. That's what happens. 01:23.93 James our lightning topics, Frank. 01:26.18 Frank Lightning? 01:26.98 James Yeah, lightning. 01:27.53 Frank Let's do it. 01:28.49 James Let's do it. 01:28.87 Frank It's been a while. I feel like it's it's been at least 10 episodes since we did a Lightning Top 01:34.06 James Yeah, it's been at least 10, maybe 11, some per se. I want to start off with some AI a little bit, AI-ish, ah following up on our.NET 10 episode. 01:46.38 James We talked a little bit about Aspire 13, and we go into a little bit of detail about Aspire, but one of the really cool things that the Aspire team did in the most recent release that they integrated MCP server, a model context protocol server, into the Aspire dashboard. 01:49.36 Frank Mm-hmm. 02:06.76 James Now, previously, there was GitHub co-pilot integration on the dashboard. So you go to the dashboard, go and hit a co-pilot button and you could say, tell me the status of my stuff, go find errors, go diagnose the logs. And it would give you a summary of like what to fix maybe in the code and other things like that. 02:23.54 James But now there's an MCP server that you can connect to anything or like, for example, VS code or visual studio and in real time extract logs and information 02:34.04 Frank nice 02:34.85 James and resources directly into your coding agent, which is wild. 02:41.07 Frank dear chat gpt why is my bill ten thousand dollars a month something like that why is my response time 30 milliseconds not eight milliseconds yeah that's ah That's fun. 02:54.17 Frank ah This gets back to what we were saying since the beginning of every app should also just be an MCP server. I hope we'll get there someday. 03:04.50 James No, it was really neat. So a good use case for this was I was building a new app, as one does, and I was building like this app for like team updates. And I have a React front end, and I have a.NET backend, and I integrated OpenTelemetry into everything. 03:19.61 James I was getting all these logs all these things, and it has SignalR in it doing real-time updates across the wire. And I started to integrate in the backend services, and some things weren't updating. And like sure enough, I was like, hey, go look at the logs for the front end and the backend. And it was like, oh, cool, yeah, i clearly see the issue now. I was like looking at the logs. like The logs say this, and it was did this. was like, oh, it looks like it what it sent successful. 03:40.94 James The backend got it, but the the the frontend didn't. like Wasn't able to detail, oh, because it was like this thing. And basically, was able to see all of the traces in real time to understand, oh, the backend is working correctly. 03:50.35 Frank right 03:52.37 James The front is working. The reason that this is important, Frank, is because the LLM can look at your code and it can assume, oh, yeah, the backend's working. Oh, the front is working. But in this case, it can actually see that the things are being called as well, which is really, really neat. Instead of just looking at like logs, it was looking at the actual traces of telemetry, which is wild. 04:13.44 Frank You just made me think someone needs to, I'm sure someone already has like a GDB and LLDB MCP. So I can just be like, yeah, you may think you know how my app is working, but here's a debugger. Prove that it's actually working that way. 04:27.85 Frank um No, that's cool. Yeah. You can't beat a trace, especially when you're doing ah distributed programming. My God. If you want to go insane, write a distributed app. ah That's the easiest way to go insane. And it's it is funny because like the the AIs were kind of operating with one hand tied behind their back because we humans, we could always get those traces, but poor things couldn't. 04:52.16 James Yeah. 04:52.22 Frank That's fun. I like it. ah I do believe every app should just be an MCP server, though. So I hope this is just a sign of the future to come. 05:01.66 James Kind of cool. Yeah, I kind of like that. Like in some in some general sense, it's like when I'm debugging my app, I have all these logs and stuff. Yeah, just go pull the logs and look at the thing. 05:12.68 James like Instead of it having to find and maybe where those logs are at or figure it out, like yeah, if it just was looking at my debug profiling session in real time, go figure that out. 05:13.82 Frank Mm-hmm. 05:22.04 James That'd be really neat. i i just thought it was like really cool that it was just there and there's just an MCP button in the top right. And it's like, here you go. And I was like, cool. i was like, let's go. So yeah, really neat. 05:30.60 Frank But it's not just for debugging, right? It's also just, it's it's for like, um I guess you could get like actual stats, but then you'd have to be running a workload against it. But it it seems like it's more powerful than just debugging since that dashboard has so much in it. 05:45.99 James Yeah, you could use it to be like, oh, like, Hey, i just did this thing. Like do an analysis of like the performance and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like the last 10 traces and blah, blah, blah, like X, Y, Z. 05:54.57 Frank Mm-hmm. 05:56.00 James Like, did you and do this and that and blah, blah, blah. And like, you could have that. You could also do that inside, right? Like inside of the dashboard, there's the co-pilot button to say, oh, like go analyze the thing. 06:04.68 Frank Gotcha. Mm-hmm. 06:06.42 James So it really depends on what you want to do with it. However, you could bring it in and say, oh, generate a report, generate a thing, document this thing, blah, blah, blah, right? Like snapshot it, do a thing, buth blah, blah, blah. 06:17.51 James So um you could ask it more follow-up questions or like have it generate documentation or generate information from you or take it and put it into any other format, right? And be like, hey, put now put that in a markdown file and then like bring it into chat GPT or something and then do something else with it. 06:33.02 James Right. So that there's, and it's not just in your, in your agent, you could bring it into other LL or other AI applications that support MCP too. 06:39.32 Frank Yeah. 06:41.41 James Right. So kind of neat. 06:42.87 Frank Yeah. 06:43.49 James Yeah. 06:44.45 Frank I always have to ask with these things, so is this Aspire running a server, so kind of a remote MCP, or is this a local MCP where it's talking to a process? 06:55.50 Frank It's a little behind the curtain. It probably doesn't matter in the end. I'm i'm just always curious how these things work. 07:00.31 James It local, so just running locally on your machine. 07:00.93 Frank Mm-hmm. Local process stuff. OK, fine. 07:07.19 James Yeah. 07:08.16 Frank Yeah. i I always wonder, because like you you hear MCP servers in the weirdest places. I'm like, what's the transport protocol? How are they actually doing that? 07:18.77 James Yeah. 07:19.05 Frank Just a weird engineer in me is always wondering. 07:21.37 James This one actually is using HTTP protocol, but, uh, streaming HTTP, but was talking to Fowler and he said like, maybe they'll change it to standard IO just to make it easier to use basically. 07:30.79 Frank Oh, really? 07:32.72 James And it just is all in C sharp. So just using the C sharp sdga So yeah, just cool. 07:35.58 Frank Yeah, right. 07:37.64 James It's exposing it. Boom. 07:40.05 Frank Turns out you can do more than just monkeys with that SDK. 07:42.26 James Can do more than just my... Yeah, to me, it was like real-time stuff. Well, talking about AI, let's get more AI stuff. The week in which we're recording this, the AI model lords above descended upon us. 07:54.15 Frank Mm. 07:55.64 James New GPTs, 5.1, 5.1 Codex, 5.1 Codex Mini onto it. 07:57.47 Frank Ooh. Right. 08:01.99 Frank OK. 08:02.77 James And the Google lords also decided to descend down a new Gemini 3.0 onto the dance floor this week. 08:05.48 Frank Oh. 08:12.05 Frank That's at least one better than the last Gemini, right? 08:16.09 James ah It's 0.5 better, Yeah. 08:16.18 Frank No, I, oh, it's only 0.5 better. 08:17.90 James in fact 08:19.28 Frank Okay. um I'm actually pretty excited for the Gemini um because they've released some stats, which not everyone does. Like OpenAI is really notoriously bad at this, of showing actual benchmarks that they ran this on. 08:35.25 Frank All the normal benchmark ah rules apply, you know, benchmarks so aren't always representative of the real world. But Gemini 3 is kicking some butt. 08:46.41 Frank And I wanted to bring up a specific benchmark that I pay attention to because I've coded my own AIs against it. It is the ARC AGI benchmark. 08:58.58 Frank they're they're doing arcgi 2 whatever same difference um it's a hard one it's hard james it gives you these like little graphical puzzles it'll give you like two examples of solving the puzzle and then it'll give you a third one and be like solve that good luck buddy and i'll tell you what as a human being person i'm I'm lucky if I'm able to solve a quarter of them. so Some of them are hard. Some of them are trivially easy. 09:27.73 Frank Others are hard. And ah most AIs score very poorly on it. It's a very difficult benchmark. And the Gemini Pro, I ah i should say first, Gemini 2.5. the old one that was worse scored to five percent um but 09:48.22 James Yeah. 09:48.34 Frank ah So I assume that means it got 5% correct on the test. The new Gemini 3, which is supposedly only 0.5 better, scores 31%. thirty one percent That's huge. Like, I'm not sure I can score 31% on stupid thing. 10:06.63 Frank and ah So that's really cool. A lot of the other benchmarks, the benchmarks are just kind of interesting to look through in general, like there's benchmarks on how much money does it make if it's given these scenarios and things like that. 10:18.75 Frank um But that's a benchmark I pay attention to the ArcGi one. And it's it's really impressive to see a general purpose AI get up to 31%. There are specific AIs written to beat that benchmark that can do better, but those are handwritten artisanal networks. 10:38.44 James I've been... 10:38.58 Frank So I think that's pretty cool. I don't know if that applies to anything in the real world, but it impresses me. 10:44.31 James Yeah, and it has impressed me so far. I've been using it in Copilot, ah GitHub Copilot and VS Code. 10:48.23 Frank Hmm. 10:53.11 James And I have heard from people that it's very good at UI. So it is building UIs that are less AI than normal. 10:59.60 Frank Oh. 11:05.08 James And our good friend Burke Holland on x ah Did a side-by-side comparison. I'll put a link to this tweet, I think, that he did. 11:16.41 James did a fun side-by-side. I'll at least show it to you that's in here. And was pretty cool. He had like, here's the one that Claude whatever for his personal blog did. And then he asked it to do a few different ones in Gemini three. 11:27.62 James And it came up with pretty good UI, very different. I think he asked it for different styles. You know what I mean? Ask it for different mocks and it did different variations of a split magazine. 11:36.60 Frank Mm-hmm. 11:39.87 James It did a playful masonry and then it did a cyberpunk terminal theme basically. And that's pretty good. It's actually really, really nice. Yeah. 11:48.68 Frank Yeah, um it's funny because one of the examples is Claude. And it looks like, yeah, whenever you say dress up a website, it seems like they all choose blue, purple gradients everywhere. 12:01.35 James Yeah. 12:01.43 Frank It's going to be the look of AI. So it's nice to see it can actually change its style. Of course, you got to prompt it. Always got to prompt these things. But it's nice to see it doing different styles. it's's It's that creativity part that they're always so bad at. 12:15.56 James It is Well, I asked it, I asked it, I said, hey, go to mcpbadge.dev. And I said, I want you to like Here's the code, like I want you to make it look less AI-y and like some nice touches. 12:26.50 James And it fixed up the UI like a little bit, not too crazy, but it added a nice like sticky header title on it, like just kind of normal badges, like pretty nice. 12:34.39 Frank OK. 12:38.14 James And it redid a bunch of other things for me. That was pretty good. And it uses thinking as well, pretty good. I don't know. i don't know if I'll use it forever, but it's always fun to try new models, but it is day one, at least when we're trying it. 12:49.45 James So it's always like, you know, how's it going to work? You know, um but I'm going to try to use it for design, I think now and see how it goes. 12:52.78 Frank yeah 12:55.85 James You know, why not? It's there. 12:58.25 Frank Yeah, you know, i I personally don't do that stuff enough. i Do you remember many podcasts ago, you challenged me to send my blog to an AI and just be like, hey, make this look better. And you're like, it's going to be great. 13:10.92 Frank It's going to be fantastic. I did that for my blog. 13:12.53 James Yeah. 13:13.76 Frank Oh my God, it created the trashiest website I've ever seen in my whole life. 13:19.02 James Oh Oh no. 13:19.12 Frank I mean, it did have, there were some good elements to it. Like there were a few things like maybe I will steal and adopt in the future. But the overall thing, was just like, you took my perfect typography that I spent a lot of time really nailing and just threw it all out the window and did such a trash job. 13:38.40 James no 13:40.50 Frank um But that was a while ago, and I don't even remember which network I was using that on. um But I am willing, because I am a scientist, to repeat the experiment using the Gemini 3 and see if it does any better. I'd be curious. 13:54.14 James Yeah. I'd be curious as well. Um, yeah, just kind of interesting new models and like what they're doing as a big splashy launch. Uh, and with it became, came a new, uh, new ID. We have a whole new ID. 14:05.43 James Frank, uh, I didn't play around with it. So you're the only one that has played around with it and knows anything. 14:07.29 Frank Oh, are you talking about? And ah yeah, so we are talking about the Google anti-pattern. No, the anti-knowledge. No, it's the anti-gravity for no reason. I don't know why it's called anti-gravity. 14:24.24 Frank The icon's an A and almost looks like a little spaceship. I don't know. I don't get it. ah It's a new agentic programming thing. And by that, I mean, that means absolutely nothing to me. um But it's a big claim to fame seems to be it just has really good browser integration. 14:42.74 Frank So when you're asking it to develop a web app, it's able to control Chrome or whatever, and take screenshots, run unit tests and that kind of stuff. 14:53.51 Frank That seems to be its biggest ah benefit, which is not really a benefit to me. I write native apps and mobile apps. So I could really don't care about the Chrome integration of these things. 15:06.52 Frank I got to say, um 15:10.21 Frank It's always good. i want to see technology advance, and we're we're taking those baby steps advancing IDEs, but this is yet another one of those VS Code forks that, you know, changes a few things. 15:22.95 Frank i it's It's more VS Code than it is not VS Code. And by that, I mean, like... The project system is VS Code. The editor is VS Code. The terminal is VS Code. 15:34.06 Frank All the ways you interact with it, the settings, the extensions, all that stuff, VS Code. um Google just added some extensions but felt the need to fork VS Code for whatever reason and rebrand it slightly. 15:40.00 James Thank you. 15:47.99 Frank I feel like I'm being a little bit of a pessimist. um I just don't get it. i don' I don't get this world of you built a new IDE, but you didn't. 15:59.43 Frank You just copy and pasted someone else's IDE and changed a few colors. I don't get it. 16:05.05 James Yeah, well they have a very fancy website, antigravity.google, on it. It's fascinating because they call it an IDE, and not a code editor. 16:16.59 James Um, and those are, those are fighting words, uh, ID, ID versus non-IDE. 16:18.05 Frank Sure. 16:23.54 James Like, you know, I think visual studio 2026 IDE integrated development environment, VS code code editor. 16:24.31 Frank Sure. 16:31.07 James That's pretty specific with their words. I think for a reason, but 16:33.80 Frank ah If I could step outside of your bubble just for a moment, that's a Microsoft problem. 16:36.95 James go ahead. Is it? 16:38.85 Frank That's because they have two products. 16:41.83 James Ah. 16:42.15 Frank VS Code became an IDE long time ago. 16:45.39 James Yeah, but you know, and and no, no, no, no. 16:45.50 Frank um 16:47.75 James Google has ah Android Studio. They have IDX. They have Firebase Studio. 16:51.76 Frank Yeah. 16:52.71 James They have a bunch of they bunch of things. 16:53.65 Frank Sure. Yeah, they do. 16:55.57 James No? 16:56.66 Frank Yeah, Google, well, Google creates an IDE every other month, so who who knows what they have. 17:00.18 James Hmm. 17:02.54 Frank um Yeah, that the the line in the sand is not so strong. I'll just say that. It's a much blurrier line than it used to be, so I don't have any problem with them calling it an IDE. 17:13.89 James Okay. 17:14.09 Frank it's It's an IDE. 17:14.14 James All right. 17:16.36 Frank It's more full-featured than i use Visual C++ 3.0. 17:16.45 James That's fine. 17:19.01 Frank three point zero It's more of an IDE than that ever was. has more features. 17:22.56 James Yeah. 17:23.23 Frank So it's just where you want to draw that line. But I will draw the line at they just copied VS Code and changed a few colors, a few system prompts. 17:33.93 James It's fascinating. I obviously work at Microsoft. I can't be too opinionated on it because I'm still, you know you know, not on the clock, but, you know, slightly biased. 17:40.25 Frank Slightly biased. 17:43.00 James Yeah, it's really fascinating as you look at the world of different editors and code things out there as well, and the different parts. And I mean, it's really cool that VS code is this platform that allows people to build on top of it and into it. Right. I mean, that's the beauty of open source in a way i think like at GitHub universe is really fascinating, like how. 18:01.77 James The VS Code team is opening up so many more APIs for ai companies to integrate, right? Not only bring your own key, so inference providers like Cerebris, for example, can easily add in or OpenRouter or anyone else can use and easily add in through their extensions. 18:07.59 Frank Yeah. 18:17.38 James Now we talked about like OpenAI Codex, for example, you can see alongside all the co-pilot sessions. You can log in with your co-pilot account, get billed that way, which is really neat. If you like that experience and that UI for extensions. 18:30.76 James Yeah, i i imagine like how many of these things start is like, Hey, like what if we created a closed ecosystem? Like this is an ecosystem that's here now inherently you can run terminal, you can do stuff. 18:36.71 Frank yeah 18:40.65 James So you could run cloud code inside this thing and you could run whatever you run copilot CLI. 18:42.77 Frank Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 18:45.92 James It doesn't, it doesn't matter, right? it just says there. but more of a closed ecosystem to say, hey, this is like our AI technology and it's gonna close you and lock it into this. and and And that is one way of doing it, right? Like Visual Studio 2026, you know, 2022 is a closed ecosystem, right? 19:03.33 James a closed source IDE, right? In general, has many, many power features and into it that are closed source, ah which is one route to go. And the VS Code's completely different, right? it's the All the AI integrations are open source now too. 19:16.37 James including code completion and tabbing too. 19:17.78 Frank i i 19:19.15 James It's kind of fascinating. 19:19.58 Frank ah I don't want to turn this into a VS Code lightning topic, but that's super cool. 19:23.58 James No. 19:24.46 Frank And um we we did a little bit of a deep dive with the chat integration, the agent integration with VS Code. And they did finally release, hashtag finally, the actual code completion stuff, the tab completion stuff. And I hope we'll actually do an episode on that maybe because... 19:44.98 Frank I've been really excited to dig into that and see exactly how they choose what information is going to the servers and coming back and how that integrates. Because I think the tab of completion, maybe a few months ago, ah significantly improved. 19:59.63 Frank um The user interface for tab completion in VS Code significantly improved. So it'll be fun to dive into that code and good on Microsoft for actually releasing that code. 20:11.66 James Yeah, they're they're, they're going for it. That's what the whole, ah the whole idea. And then I think that's like, you know, one of the core benefits of it, you know, in a way of like being this ID or this code editor, that is this platform that you can build upon. Now that does kind of mean that you're building the base. So like, you know, 20:31.99 James where's the balance where you're able to to innovate versus others are innovating on top of you. So it's like a hard challenge as well. 20:36.17 Frank yeah 20:37.87 James So I, you know, I think that, you know, I haven't tried the anti-gravity stuff. I was really, um you know, I look at cursor and windsurf, there's at least uniqueness to the branding and the theming and stuff. 20:51.31 James ah There's a few other forks that are out there and I look at them and I look at, I'm like, I was squinting and I was like, whoa, 20:56.99 Frank yeah 20:57.69 James i was like, is this VS code? It's like, is it VS code? And actually, to a detriment, the um the the problem that i I can see is the the amount of clones and things that are built on top of it um can be detrimental at some point, right? 21:15.51 James if you have If you have Coca-Cola and you have a bunch of other things that are are are colas, 21:23.88 Frank You cannot have my RC Cola. 21:24.01 James um 21:25.68 Frank No. 21:26.45 James um Coca-Cola would be very upset at you if your Coca-Cola looks exactly like and even tastes very similar, right? 21:32.76 Frank Fair. Yeah. 21:33.90 James Like now if you have RC Cola and you have these other other Colas and Pepsi and all these other things, like they're a allowed to coexist together, but and they're inherently Cola. but the the branding, and the theme, like you can distinguish the look and feel of of Coke and Pepsi very differently. 21:48.02 Frank Yeah. 21:49.62 James And, and they did move the profile to the top, right? Which I kind of like up there. Maybe. Yeah, it's kind of nice, but bottom bottom left. 21:56.61 Frank where Visual Studio has it. 21:58.41 James Yeah. 21:58.40 Frank um Yeah, I just wish they spent a little more time differentiating themselves. Because, you know, that's famous Steve Jobs thing of, like, ah this is a feature, not a company. 22:10.93 Frank I'm like, isn't this an extension, not an IDE? 22:11.08 James Hmm. 22:13.64 Frank Like, could they do everything that they're doing with just a VS Code extension? But obviously, there's business and business politics reasons and synergy reasons why they did not. And they decided to release their own IDE. 22:24.05 James yeah 22:25.74 Frank But if you're going to go there, like, hire a graphic designer for a month and just dress it up a little, you know? Like, Google-ify it a little bit. 22:33.78 James Yeah. 22:34.06 Frank it this This feels like someone just did a git clone and changed a few strings. 22:40.43 James I know it's not a meme, but you know, if you, you know, love it, let us know, you know, uh, right into the show. If you've been, you know, definitely checking out, I haven't checked it out enough, so I can't really. 22:51.65 James unbiased, you know, give hands on. 22:51.70 Frank Yeah. 22:53.95 James It just came out today from when we're recording. It's not been a few weeks. Right. So, but, um, yeah, let us know what you think. 22:58.56 Frank Sure. 23:01.16 Frank I will say um they're giving out free access to all the models. And I think that that's a very smart way to get adoption if you just give people a bunch of free stuff. So smart for Google for doing that. But part of me wonders if they just didn't have time to set up the business model for it either. 23:19.77 James That is a good point. Yeah. Oh, to put it out. We'll figure out how charge for it later. 23:25.24 Frank Classic. 23:25.41 James That's one way to do it. 23:26.16 Frank Classic web development. 23:27.55 James That is one way to do it. Oh my gosh. 23:31.15 Frank Well, you know what else is new out there, James? 23:31.43 James Oh, what else is new? I'm ready. 23:34.43 Frank What's new? This is a little bit old, i we did but we just didn't get a chance to talk about it. ah These humanoid robot things, James, they just won't go away. 23:44.77 James Oh God. 23:46.67 Frank ah we We all want our Lieutenant Commander data, and we are going to keep working at it until we all have a little robot health housekeeper or butler or something. 24:00.52 Frank don't want to say what it actually is. um We're going to keep working on these humanoid robots, and there's a new one out there, and it's cute. It's covered in fabric. It has a funny-looking butt, but it's the 1X Neo home robot. 24:16.88 Frank James, can you believe that people are still working on humanoid robots? Like, I get it. I'm an engineer. I like robots. We all think about bipedal motion and how fun and interesting it is because that's what we humans do. 24:28.88 James Yep. 24:28.86 Frank And there's obviously advantages to using two legs and two arms. But there's a lot of disadvantages, too. You know, if nature could develop a motorized wheel, I think there would be some animals with motorized wheels on their feet. 24:40.64 Frank But instead, so there' there's a new one out there, the Neo Home Robot. It's cute. It can turn switches on and off and pick up glasses. 24:52.44 Frank What do you think? What do you think of the new 1X Neo Home Robot? 24:55.92 James ah This was super fascinating. It was everywhere on the internet. and There were CNETs, there was MKBHD videos. 25:02.37 Frank suspicious 25:03.16 James There's a whole bunch of stuff. what's It's the it's the the Jetsons dream, right? um 25:08.59 Frank Yeah. 25:09.58 James It is our, you know, we we talked about, 25:11.85 Frank she had She had wheels on her feet, though. 25:14.99 James She did have whales on interview. We talked about HandyBot. Remember HandyBot that could like load your dishes and do stuff? 25:19.32 Frank No, I've actually already forgotten about HandyBot. 25:21.45 James HandyBot from Samsung. ah you know i think you know we have little robots cleaning our house. 25:24.13 Frank Okay. 25:27.12 James Well, we don't, but you do. Cutting your lawn. think 25:30.31 Frank Yeah. 25:30.78 James you know i think that This isn't going to go away. i think that the idea of it sounds great. 25:44.15 James I think, going to say i think a lot. i had someone someone email me and they're like, we looked at your transcripts and you say, I think a lot. 25:47.15 Frank Yeah, it's fine. 25:50.70 James And i'm like, well i think that this is happening. So my other um thought is that I don't know if the humanoid aspect of it happening. 26:03.68 James really what people are looking for in general. I do believe that HandyBot and these little other robots that are a little bit more purposeful, that it can be fine-tuned, make a lot of sense. 26:14.44 James The comfort level, there's an uncanny valley aspect of it, which is odd. I think that this robot does look pretty cool. 26:26.53 James and that they did a pretty good job of making it human-esque, but not overly human. ah And the fabric also looks very nice. 26:37.54 James The downside to most of this, and I'm sure maybe you've watched some videos, is that none of it is real. It's all just like, the it can do a few things, can like answer the door kind of. 26:44.44 Frank Yeah. 26:47.20 Frank Yeah. 26:48.42 James But what they literally have is somebody with the goggles on that can remote in to the robot and then move it around and do stuff. 26:54.21 Frank yeah 26:58.01 James Now, it's obviously early prototype and things like that, but it's going be like $20,000 down the road. 27:00.53 Frank Right. 27:03.51 James ah So it's super early days, but it's using all those AI things and all this other stuff with it. But it's cool. I like the idea of it you know and in general to do some stuff, but I want it to be smaller. 27:11.88 Frank Well. 27:13.20 James like I don't want another human in my house, I guess. 27:14.47 Frank Oh, funny. 27:17.13 Frank Yeah, it's a little awkward, isn't it? um But you actually hit on some points that I wanted to talk about. um So when we talk about a robot, there's actually two things happening. 27:27.42 Frank We're talking about the hardware. Does it have, like, g grippers? How does it move around? How big and small is it? 27:35.74 James Mm-hmm. 27:36.24 Frank And then there's a whole other thing called the intelligence and the capabilities of that robot. they to say put it simply, there's the software and the hardware. And I find the hardware is very fascinating because um bipedal motion isn't just difficult from a balancing standpoint. There's a power issue involved. Like our muscles are really strong. 27:58.22 Frank In order to walk and especially run and to just be ah able to be fluid at all smooth, you need very strong motors. And I think that the actual mechanism that they developed is pretty nice. 28:11.74 Frank They're really high torque motors. They're really beautiful, powerful motors. And they're simulating muscles with ropes, which is always just kind of fun when we have big ah pulleys doing everything inside of the robot. 28:27.83 Frank It's a fun solution to a rigid robot where you're using gears. Gears can't slip. ah Ropes can bend and twist and things like that. So there's a compliance that's allowed with that physical body. 28:40.54 Frank So yeah, right now, basically, they have a really cool piece of hardware. They haven't solved the software problem. No one solved the software problem yet. I mean, Boston Dynamics still writes custom scripts for opening a door, for going upstairs. These are all custom scripts. 28:58.77 Frank They really nailed the technology. It can self-balance, but it can't self-anything else. ah The Tesla Optimist, same thing. ah It's a little questionable. Maybe they're slightly more intelligent, but they don't really release any papers, so no one knows. 29:13.04 Frank ah So what I think we're seeing right now is a lot of people have figured out the hardware. ah battery technology has gotten good enough, motor technology has gotten good enough, ah but the software is greatly lagging behind. 29:24.62 Frank Everyone keeps saying AI powered because that's all we talk about now are agents and AI and agents and AI are pretty good at generating HTML. But they're really bad at making a robot interact with the world. 29:38.04 Frank They just are. And we're not there yet. ah So I find that all fascinating. 29:40.76 James Yeah. 29:42.96 Frank And the $20,000 price tag, I don't think is actually too crazy. Because that stupid like little Boston Dynamics dog thing is like $12,000 or $14,000. um And that's so much smaller and so much easier to build than these humanoid robots. 29:59.64 Frank But $20,000 for something that doesn't do anything? No, complete waste. But i'm I'm still excited for all the reasons I just outlined. 30:08.72 James Yeah, I think so too. um 30:13.92 James Yeah, I think it's going to be someday we'll have more things in our house doing specific things, but more general things that's also going to happen too. Like it's going to happen at some point, right? So, yeah. 30:24.15 Frank Yeah. All right. Well, let's escape the real world and go into the virtual world. 30:31.95 James Like people do for the X1R thingy in general. 30:32.36 Frank There's a new... 30:35.19 James They have to. They got strap on a headset. 30:37.52 Frank That's funny, actually. Yeah, that's a real mixed mode reality, isn't it? That's the avatar style. 30:41.73 James ah 30:43.70 Frank and Maybe we'll do that. maybe we'll you Maybe the Frank avatar can come visit you with his funny little butt walking around your house. um I want to talk about something super cool, I think. 30:56.28 Frank Maybe it's just me, because I don't know if anyone else cares. There's a little hardware device out there called the Vision Pro. Have you heard of it? 31:04.78 James I have heard of the Vision Pro and the Vision Pro 2025 edition using even newer processors that we've talked about. 31:11.06 Frank Oh, i don't we don't talk about that one. Who cares about that one? 31:12.56 James Oh, okay, not that one. Got you. 31:15.32 Frank um There's a funny little funny as in sad part about the Vision Pro. When it first came out, Vision OS 1.0, so the original OS, oddly enough, it could not run web VR anymore. 31:30.97 Frank content. So um WebVR, WebXR, these are APIs that have been developed for the web specifically so that in the JavaScript and the OpenGLs and all that kind of stuff you can write VR applications on a website. 31:46.40 Frank It's super cool. You might have seen this in YouTube or something like that. You go to a website, plan a video or something, there might be a little VR button if you're in a if you're wearing a VR headset. You can click that and then all a sudden Whoa, it's 3D, or at least it's 360, or it's something like that. 32:01.58 James Whoa. 32:02.02 Frank It's a little more immersive. Whoa, it just happens. It's super cool. But the stupid Vision OS didn't support that. Apple. 32:09.67 James Oh, come on, Apple. 32:11.39 Frank So there was all this web content out there that you just couldn't consume. Thankfully, a year ago, Apple fixed that. And with Vision OS 2.0, you could now consume Web XR content. 32:23.34 Frank So thank you, Apple. 32:23.69 James Oh. 32:24.54 Frank They finally opened up the internet to all that stuff. But um I'm not sure if you're aware, but ah there's another web technology out there called WebGPU. 32:39.64 Frank And WebGPU is the new way to program, go figure, GPUs on the web. ah The old way was with WebGL, WebGraphics. 32:50.46 Frank um That basically copied the OpenGL API. 32:56.77 James Yeah. 32:57.07 Frank But OpenGL is a little bit long in the tooth now. I mean, Apple deprecated it, like, five or 10 years ago, like a long time ago. 33:06.14 James yeah 33:08.16 Frank um it just, WebGL, its API surface just doesn't match how modern GPUs work anymore. And I feel a little bit bad because if you want to learn graphics programming, you have to learn pretty complicated APIs these days, GPU APIs. 33:24.33 Frank But there's reasons for it, and it's it's just a hard task. Anyway, all that said, A really cool feature came to Safari 26.2. 33:36.32 Frank Did you know that there is a 26.2 beta out there? By the time this podcast comes out, it might even be released. 33:40.30 James I did not. 33:43.69 Frank And Apple did something quite amazing. And this is especially amazing given the history I just said. They actually allow you to program WebXR apps using WebGPU. 33:55.77 James Oh. 33:56.20 Frank So finally on the Vision Pro, you can use the most modern graphics API to do the most modern way to consume graphics, which is with a headset, let's be honest. 34:07.49 Frank Running a 3D game on a 2D monitor is stupid. You really want a headset. 34:11.42 James Yeah. 34:14.53 Frank So I think it's super cool because now if if you wanted to do like virtual reality stuff on the web, you had to use this old API because really no one supported It wasn't even until like Chrome 135 that even supported this stuff. 34:28.28 Frank But now the web has finally advanced and you can do WebGPU with WebXR in Vision Pro. The moment I saw this, I upgraded my Vision OS to 26.2, loaded the very first WebXR WebGPU demo and crashed the operating system. 34:45.17 James Nice. 34:45.72 Frank Boom. 34:46.16 James Nailed it. 34:46.84 Frank Hard fail. 34:48.45 James Nailed it. 34:49.10 Frank And then I found out that the ah API changed over time and a lot of the demos online are completely broken. But once I patched up the demos, yeah, I know it's that new. 34:55.85 James Uh. 34:58.60 Frank It's that new that like it's hard to even find demos of this stuff. Once I found a a correct demo, though, oh, it runs so smoothly. HDR rendering, all the good stuff. 35:10.22 Frank ah So this is just exciting for the the VR web and all that stuff. I should say, sorry, I keep talking, but um Apple still has not implemented augmented reality for the web. 35:17.20 James They're good. 35:21.16 Frank There is a Web AR in addition to Web VR. 35:25.47 James Oh. 35:26.27 Frank Apple, frustratingly, still hasn't implemented um the augmented reality stuff, but at least someone who codes a website with virtual reality is now fully consumable in Vision OS. 35:38.34 Frank And it's super cool. I've been having fun just writing web GPU demos and stuff for my Vision Pro. 35:43.77 James That's cool. 35:44.80 Frank Yeah, it's super cool. 35:45.03 James Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I like the idea. Like we were joking on the previous ah podcast about like, or maybe on this podcast or sometime today, we were talking about just like, you know, just kind of just like work, you know, everywhere and do stuff and just kind of like be delightful. And then like now it's like, okay, I made a website. Now it's on the thing. And now it's on this thing. It's like yeah, i want to, 36:09.10 James build this thing, it works here and now it works on my headset and it kind of works everywhere. So that's really neat. Cause obviously like a lot of times so Safari, like even for Zencaster and for streamer and so it's like, as far as like, no, like we're not going implement this thing and not doing, do this thing. Like, Oh, just implement the thing. Everybody else doing it. 36:23.80 James This one thing. 36:23.82 Frank yeah yeah 36:25.34 James It's just a complicated, so it's nice to see them like kind of fall in line and be like all right, we're going to like settle in on this is going happen. 36:31.11 Frank Yeah, it's so funny. When I first started looking into this, A, I was impressed that they had WebVR support. I was like, oh, they're never going to have WebGPU. Like, ah we're talking five years minimum, especially because, like, lot of the other browsers don't even have it. It's really just Chrome out there. 36:47.41 Frank Maybe Edge has ah has it now. 36:47.58 James Yeah. Yeah. 36:49.50 Frank um So I was... was... amazed to see them so advanced and and supporting this thing. So just had to give the props out there. 37:00.10 Frank Obviously, they've got figured out that, you know, supporting good web content is obviously smart for your $3,000 device that you put on your head. It's just smart. 37:08.91 James yeah 37:10.01 Frank So good good job, Apple. And as a developer, I love it. 37:12.02 James well And like the joke, now that I remember it, I'm getting pretty tired, but it's like the, with the super powerful Mac that we like are on all the time. We're just like browsing, we're just browsing Twitter all the time. 37:24.33 James You know what mean? We're just browsing. 37:24.94 Frank Yeah, that's terrible. 37:25.29 James So it's like, yeah, let me just browse the thing and do the thing in the browser. Just let me do it. 37:28.16 Frank Yeah. 37:28.85 James Like I love native apps. Yes. But not everything is there. I want to experience it everywhere and do a thing and and vibe something really cool and fun. So that's cool. I like it. 37:37.76 Frank Yeah, and especially, sorry, i just I could talk about this forever, but like if you want to do AI stuff, like AI stuff runs with web GPU. 37:37.98 James That's awesome. 37:40.76 James Yep. 37:45.44 Frank like you don't want to 37:45.85 James Yeah. 37:46.44 Frank You don't run AI stuff with WebGL. It technically can, but it's terrible. 37:50.32 James Yeah. 37:50.30 Frank So this also brings in the ability to integrate like AI stuff into games. Anyway, just wanted to put that out there. 37:54.60 James Yeah. I like it. 37:56.49 Frank Web GPU is super cool. I love Web GPU. One last bit of hardware. it's been ah It's been a hardware pre-winter. 38:06.13 James Yeah. 38:06.92 Frank Have you heard of this little company called Velvy with the steam? 38:12.40 James Velve. 38:13.66 Frank Velvay. little Pacific Northwest company, Velvay, has announced new things, a steam machine, 38:18.14 James marve Yeah, 38:24.17 Frank a Steam frame and a new remote controller or something like that. don't really get what that thing is, but Steamote. 38:28.50 James yeah Steam mode. 38:32.92 Frank um I'm not a super gamer. Everyone knows that, even though I pretend to write games all the time. And by that, I mean, I spend way too much time writing games that I never release. um But I always dream about being a gamer. And obviously, I'm a big virtual reality and augmented reality freak. 38:49.23 Frank um I think that that's like the best way to play games. And so it was super cool to see Velvi with their new Steam offerings. They're doing it again. They're building a console, the Steam machine. 39:03.46 Frank a little nervous about that. Their last console wasn't that great. um And I'm curious how ah how expensive this guy is going to be. But I was watching reviews on the YouTube, and it looks like a cool little machine. 39:14.88 Frank You can print your own covers for it. It's basically a crazy AMD machine thing. It's going to run SteamOS. 39:22.87 James Basically, heatsink. 39:24.45 Frank It's a giant heatsink. That's what the machine is. 39:25.80 James Yeah. 39:26.49 Frank With a giant fan, it's a giant heatsink and ah but a little video card running in there somehow. Upgradable hard drive somehow. 39:34.96 James Mm-hmm. 39:35.95 Frank ah It looks cool. What do you think about the Steam machine? 39:38.92 James Yeah, they did the great thing that a lot of companies are doing today and they fly in a bunch of creators and influencers and they build a bunch of content and everyone is embargoed until a day and they all put it out at the same time. 39:50.32 James I watch a lot of the digital, digital, digital foundry. Do you watch the digital foundry? Yeah. 39:54.78 Frank Oh, no, I don't know watch that one. 39:56.90 James Digital Foundry, um they are now independent. They broke away from the Geek Network and IGN. um I think they were under IGN. um And Digital Foundry, you would love because they really break down the deep technicals. 40:12.00 James That's what they're known for is deep technicals of every little thing that you could possibly want to know about the games and framework frame rates and, and the GPUs and the, the Ram and also digital foundry is great. 40:12.73 Frank Yeah. 40:23.29 James I, they have the super long podcasts, super great clips. They have two YouTube channels, digital foundry main digital family clips as for the podcast clips, all super good. And they're like, they go really deep down into everything side by side comparisons, frame rates, this and that, like they're like, they've really dialed it in so much that like people, 40:37.29 Frank Awesome. I'm sure I've seen videos then. Yeah. 40:40.54 James Yeah, people reference them from other networks as well. But I watch all sorts of different creators. i am I never had the Steam box like the other one or the Steam deck that they have out there. And and the thing that they talk a lot about is that when the Steam box originally came out... 40:59.81 James It was from other vendors that were helping like Alienware and stuff. 41:01.89 Frank Hmm. 41:03.33 James And they came with crazy controller and stuff. And at this point, I don't think SteamOS was ah ready rat because... The thing with SteamOS, like there's obviously Steam, like the lean back, the big picture mode, if you're on Windows or on Mac or whatever you're on, ah which is good, but you're running just those apps natively. 41:24.58 James The difference with the SteamOS is that it's Linux, and then they have a um an emulation ah layer, 41:31.68 Frank Proton. 41:35.60 Frank Yeah. 41:36.83 James That's called proton. 41:38.25 Frank Proton. Isn't it? 41:39.65 James Thank you. It's called proton. 41:40.45 Frank Yeah. 41:41.80 James Not to be confused of the proton VPN, but proton and, uh, so many. 41:45.53 Frank It's only so many words in the English language. 41:48.31 James So proton is that layer and it has gotten extremely good basically. And there's a whole bunch of open source stuff and things like that. And CMOS has gotten obviously increasingly better. And so much that the seam deck has done fairly well as a handheld and yeah. 42:01.61 Frank Mm-hmm. People love it. Real diehards for the Steam Deck. 42:05.88 James Too big for me. 42:05.92 Frank Yeah. 42:07.17 James Too big. um 42:08.05 Frank Okay. 42:08.87 James so It's bigger than the Switch 2. It's so big. I always think the Switch 2 is big, and then look at a Steam Deck, it's so big. 42:14.57 Frank an iPad with controllers. 42:14.83 James ah 42:15.77 Frank Yeah. 42:16.50 James It is. ginormous. But great little box. ah But you are running the Windows you know are the or the the the PC version of the games, which has its benefits and trade-offs, obviously. 42:26.16 Frank Hmm. 42:27.89 James It's not fine-tuned in. And when the ah Xbox ROG Ally device ah came out, which is the handheld Xbox, ah but running Windows and running a custom Xbox app that can do full screen custom. It can also run Steam, obviously, as well, and other door fronts. 42:48.19 James um that had a lot of advantages, kind of like very optimized, but it's still running Windows games, right? It's not running Xbox, Xbox, Xbox games. It's running your Windows games that are in the Xbox store. 42:58.13 Frank Right. 43:00.75 James And what is an Xbox? Everything's an Xbox. My phone is an Xbox. My Mac is an Xbox. The stream games do all this stuff. 43:05.78 Frank Oh boy. 43:06.85 James um Everything's an Xbox, but like an Xbox console, 43:08.86 Frank Is my vision pro an Xbox? 43:10.91 James It's a vision. Yeah. I'm sure you could xbox.com slash stream. You just stream it. It's x cloud or whatever, you know, and then boom. So yeah, just slash x x cloud or slash cloud or whatever. just, yeah, just stream the games to it. It'll just work fine. 43:24.59 James Then that works beautifully. um With this, ah yes, SteamOS has come a long ways. And then additionally, i think they a lot of lessons learned. 43:35.37 James Hardware is hard, but it seems as though they took a lot of the things that people liked from the Steam Deck, put into the controller, thought about how these pieces all come together in general. 43:36.96 Frank Yeah. 43:47.38 James and very seamless. And it's a little box, it's a little box, very cute. ah You put down ah and yeah, AMD processor, people are mostly fighting over if the GPU is more powerful enough or not powerful enough. 44:00.98 James If the RAM XYZ inside of it, you know you can buy a 512 SSD or a two terabyte. 44:02.44 Frank yeah 44:07.51 James I am just curious about the price is gonna be, right? 44:09.76 Frank Sure, yeah. 44:10.07 James And how it's gonna compete. You know, it's putting it out there. Is it competing with console? Like I think, is it competing with a PlayStation in or an Xbox series? I don't know. Maybe ah they, they frame it that way. 44:24.52 James Um, but are they, are they, are they just more targeting the PC market? 44:24.74 Frank Yeah. 44:29.21 James Like, I'm not sure they're to be able to go to a store and pick up a steam machine. You know, I think, uh, where the steam deck, are you competing with the switch and It's hard to say. 44:41.33 Frank Yeah. 44:41.73 James Are you competing with other Windows handhelds that are out on the market? Maybe. So they're trying to really blend that together. And I love competition in the space coming from the video game background scene, obviously, and um love to see more innovation. 44:57.81 James So I love that there's a lot of smooth lining of the communication layers of the devices. i love the look and feel. It's very cute. It's very small. I love the little LED that they have on the front. 45:09.32 James Very smart. 45:09.37 Frank Yeah. 45:11.06 James um 45:11.57 Frank Physical progress bar. 45:11.72 James I don't know about the head. I don't know about the headset and potato potato, but ah yeah, it's really cute. I could see it sitting here on my desk. 45:17.58 Frank Hang on. Hang on. 45:19.57 James That's cute. 45:20.83 Frank We gotta talk about that headset. Because that's the part I'm interested in. 45:22.29 James Oh God. 45:23.91 Frank um I don't, like I said, ah playing a 3D game on a 2D screen seems absurd to me. 45:24.09 James Okay. 45:29.41 Frank ah So you need to experience the full 3D. You need to put something over your eyes. You you need to have individual screens per eye. 45:34.65 James I see. Yeah. 45:37.45 Frank And ah just like you, I'm excited for the frame, but I'm curious about the price because I just went on about my Vision Pro. I'm not, I'm going to stick with my Vision Pro. It's a great device. It runs Mac software. It's easy to develop for. 45:54.82 Frank um But I do like seeing new VR headsets get come out. I like competition in the space. Like you were saying, for the machine, i want to see more competition. 46:01.83 James yeah 46:05.02 Frank Right now, it's just like Meta, Sony, and Apple really are producing the decent headsets out there. 46:07.70 James Yeah. Yeah. 46:13.80 Frank So it'll be nice to see if Steen or Valve can produce a good headset. 46:14.02 James yeah 46:19.00 Frank And the specs they released for it are pretty impressive. oh um And it's got some neat technology in it. Like it can actually talk about streaming your video games. It can stream the video games from the Steam machine or your PC or your Mac. 46:32.16 Frank And that's a genius way. I really wish Apple would adopt that where they're doing like prioritized 46:33.75 James yeah 46:38.86 Frank David Miller- Encoding quality based upon where you're looking in the screen, which is just genius, like a lot of cool little tricks like that tricks I hope Apple will adopt like Apple where's our streaming solution like why do I have to write all the software for the vision of itself. 46:42.97 James Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. 46:48.91 James Yeah. 46:55.90 Frank um those are Those are big business decisions made at the different pay grades. 46:59.94 James yeah 47:01.39 Frank ah So I just think the Steam frame is a very interesting piece of hardware. I feel like it's it's a premium device, though. I don't think it's going to be very cheap. 47:11.81 Frank I don't think we're talking about a 300, 400-hour device here. 47:13.25 James Yeah. 47:14.49 Frank I think it's going to be in the 800 or 900 hours. I don't think it'll be as as expensive as a Vision Pro because I think they don't want the flack that Apple's receiving for the Vision Pro. 47:25.12 Frank But I don't think it's going to be cheap either. But I'm very interested in the Steam frame. 47:31.16 James Yeah. The original Steam Deck came out like $399 and can still one. is $550 and the one terabyte OLED is $640. five fifty and the one terabyte o add six forty Obviously the Switch is ah four fifty five hundred with a game different 47:47.16 Frank But think of the Steam Frame as two Steam decks, though, because it's got to have two screens. 47:47.35 James these are you know 47:52.81 Frank It's got to have much more power, much more RAM. Yeah. 47:57.33 James And the other part too with the Steam machine is it's also much more powerful, but you know, bigger thing. 48:02.40 Frank Yeah. Yeah. 48:02.73 James It's outputting 4K, you know, not 1280 by 800, right? And then, you know, the Steam Deck also needs a docking station, right? eighty $80, right? 48:12.98 James So you're you're up there already. 48:13.38 Frank think 48:15.25 James So it's... the It's an interesting proposition. I do like that you can just boot into Linux and you just have a full PC there and you can do stuff on it. 48:21.39 Frank Yeah. yeah 48:24.76 James That's kind of a nice perk. um but Install Windows on it if you want. but I don't know. it it's It's hard to compete competitively in that price in the year of our Lord tariffs. um 48:36.26 Frank Yeah. 48:36.97 James And ah it's a bummer, really, because it would be really cool to have like I think, with $399 seemed expensive. Now it doesn't seem expensive, right? The LCD version. 48:45.42 Frank Yeah. It's funny how that works. 48:47.44 James But um the newer ones, obviously, more more competitively priced up there for the more premium OLED. 48:49.51 Frank Yeah. 48:53.73 James However, yeah I'll just be really interested to see what... where it goes, to be honest with you. 48:59.82 Frank Yeah. Mm-hmm. 49:00.22 James And the price, I think that is going to be a distinguishing factor of how it sells, but maybe not. don't know. The ROG LAX is a thousand dollars for a handheld and six, 700 or 600 for the non upgraded version. 49:12.89 James six, 600, 800, thousand. the price? ah upgraded version so six six hundred eight hundred a thousand 49:17.90 Frank And to your point, didn't Microsoft themselves say Xbox hardware is going to be premium devices right now, which is business speak for expensive. 49:18.71 James but surprise 49:28.03 Frank So I feel like all these prices are going up. So I don't know if we any of us are ready for 2026 prices, to be honest. 49:32.08 James the x 49:36.94 James yeah i mean the playstation prices have gone up the xbox prices have gone up and you can get a series x starting at 600 refurbished 500 series s at 450 i mean they've definitely all gone up in price oh that's a premium 49:42.92 Frank Yeah. 49:47.52 Frank Yeah, it's still a lot. Yeah. I meant for the next gen. they They said the next gen is going to be premium. Yeah. 49:56.33 James Yes, they did say that. So it's all premium all the way down, which I think is a bummer to be honest with you. 50:00.35 Frank Well, yeah. 50:02.43 James ah but what we are seeing is the reverse, which we have time to talk about today. Cause I gotta go to sleep. I gotta go to, gotta get on a flight to Japan and I'll be home. 50:07.32 Frank Yeah. Yeah. 50:10.12 James ah by the time this podcast comes out. So I was coming back from Japan. um It's a bummer, although there is this sort of race to emulation and these emulation councils that you can get for under a hundred bucks that can play a lot of things. 50:21.87 Frank yeah Yeah. 50:23.50 James So that's fascinating. what are Who's the target audience for what, right? 50:27.62 Frank Yeah. 50:28.10 James And it's ah it's interesting to see how it goes, yeah. 50:32.99 Frank Yep. And last, just to bring it all back around, I'm curious to see if the Steam Frame is able to run web GPU with WebXR. 50:40.23 James There you go. 50:40.85 Frank Because as a developer, I just want to code against one API. 50:40.97 James That'd be cool. i like it. 50:45.10 Frank Make life easier for me. 50:45.48 James There you go. All right. 50:47.58 Frank yeah 50:47.94 James That's going to do it for this week's Emerge Conflict, people. Until next time, I'm James Montemagno. 50:52.63 Frank And I'm Frank Kruger. 50:55.89 James Peace.