EP099 Product Information Management 201 - Open-Source Solutions & Future of PIM
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[00:00:06] DARIN NEWBOLD: Welcome to Commerce Today. My name is Darin and as always, Josh is here with me and we're excited to talk about what's happening in the wide world of commerce and what's happening today. And today we got to do a little bit of a summary, Josh, because, we talked about the first half of, about PIMS and what that's all about.

[00:00:24] DARIN NEWBOLD: And we talked about the commercial side, but. kind of recap it for

[00:00:27] JOSHUA WARREN: Yeah. So we talked about just the importance of having a PIM. one of the clips from that episode, actually, everyone loved that. one of our most popular clips this year was all about how much time is wasted and money is lost through inefficient, ways of getting product data on e commerce sites.

[00:00:44] JOSHUA WARREN: So. Y'all understand that pain, I think, and the need for a PIM, and then we talked through some of the key commercial PIMs in last week's episode.

[00:00:53] DARIN NEWBOLD: So now for this week, we're continuing it, but now we're going to be talking about the open source PIMS and [00:01:00] first and foremost, let's get the bowl out of the room or the whatever is it really viable to have a open source PIM? 

[00:01:10] JOSHUA WARREN: There are quite a few businesses running open source PIMs. I think a place that they fit in the market is really especially the smaller business that isn't quite sure about how to deploy a PIM and is looking for something that can help them. Scale with them as they grow.

[00:01:25] JOSHUA WARREN: Or if you're a business that has an in house tech team or a strong partner that is kind of immersed in the world of open source, then these are a great opportunity. definitely save money, save license fees with an open source PEM. There are no license fees with an open source PEM. you can also do a lot more customizations.

[00:01:42] JOSHUA WARREN: You have the source code. So, I mean, you are in Complete and total control when you're using an open source PIM. You don't have to worry about, oh, is this cloud platform going to change things on me? Is the SAS platform going to change things on me? You own and control your copy of that code. however, it does require more technical [00:02:00] resources.

[00:02:00] JOSHUA WARREN: So there is a trade off there for sure.

[00:02:02] DARIN NEWBOLD: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, guys, great. If you have the technical resources knowhow, that's, that's a key thing. Well, we've got the overview, but, Why don't you kind of run through the top open source PIMs that you found that could be applicable here?

[00:02:18] JOSHUA WARREN: so there are five I'm going to cover today.

[00:02:20] JOSHUA WARREN: There are more, for sure. Would love to hear from y'all if you think I missed one that I ought to have covered. also I'm going to go kind of quick through this because as we've been doing with all our episodes, I'll have a newsletter out on my LinkedIn account that will go into much more detail.

[00:02:34] JOSHUA WARREN: So, just real quick. First one I want to mention is PimCore. I mean, actually these first two we talked about last week, you might be saying, Hey, I heard PimCore. Well, PimCore has both a commercial and an open source edition. And so, it has that robust PIM, but also a digital asset manager, CMS integrations, really that whole suite you can set up through their open source version as well.

[00:02:57] JOSHUA WARREN: Makes it really well suited to [00:03:00] Medium to large businesses that, for whatever reason, you don't want to go the commercial route, you want to go the open source route. It does require more technical expertise for customization, really like all of these.

[00:03:10] JOSHUA WARREN: On the tech side, it is PHP based, built on the Symfony framework, uses MySQL.

[00:03:17] JOSHUA WARREN: Very similar tech stack to a lot of, open source e commerce platforms as well. So this is one that really from a technical standpoint tends to fit really well. if you're already using an open source e commerce platform.

[00:03:29] DARIN NEWBOLD: Yeah, especially knowing when you already have a set of PHP developers and can handle that kind of situation. Well, what's next up?

[00:03:36] JOSHUA WARREN: So next up is Akinio. So again, mentioned them last week with their professional edition.

[00:03:41] JOSHUA WARREN: Akinio also has a community edition. it's much simpler, than especially like PimCore because Akinio focuses entirely on Pim. So there's none of those other bells and whistles I mentioned from PimCore. however, they have really pared down. What's available in the open source [00:04:00] edition. So there are limitations and what you can get in this community edition versus what's in the paid edition.

[00:04:05] JOSHUA WARREN: So that's the, main drawback I see with their open source version. McKinney also built on PHP with symphony. So kind of the same things apply here of if you are using an open source platform like Magento or shopware, Chances are you have a tech team that can really handle PimCore or Akinio as well.

[00:04:24] DARIN NEWBOLD: quick question here on Akinnio, Josh. With it having limited advanced features in that community version, Would you have a concern that maybe they're not going to expand it more or keep up with what's in the commercial one?

[00:04:38] JOSHUA WARREN: That is kind of always the concern, especially when it's interesting. Different platforms will take a different approaches and some really try to sell you on a paid, commercial version versus their community version. And there is always that trade off of like, what features are going to get added?

[00:04:55] JOSHUA WARREN: most of these platforms that Kineo included. They typically won't take [00:05:00] features away, at least. So what you have when you first get started, you will always have. But yeah, new features that get added, there's a chance those could only go to the paid edition.

[00:05:10] DARIN NEWBOLD: Gotcha. Well, what's next on our, on our list, Josh?

[00:05:13] JOSHUA WARREN: So next up is a newer one called Ergonode. It is very flexible and it's designed really I feel like it's one of the first ones that's designed from the ground up around collaboration, like a lot of these that kind of the older PIMs look at things through the lens of, you know, big corporate workflow where one person is doing all the work, then it's handed off to someone else for approval.

[00:05:35] JOSHUA WARREN: ErgoNode, it's a little bit more flexible with kind of that collaborating. If you're a smaller company where everyone's wearing multiple hats and kind of chipping into different areas, it is still maturing though. So it has a much smaller market share and fewer developers are familiar with it. however, being newer, it has that PHP backend symphony, just like the other ones I mentioned, but the front end is in JavaScript and [00:06:00] specifically Vue.

[00:06:01] JOSHUA WARREN: js. And again, that's a front end that. There's some open source PHP developers and e commerce developers that are used to using Vue. js. So if you're already using an e com solution that's built on Vue, then Ergonodes definitely want to look at.

[00:06:16] DARIN NEWBOLD: Very cool. Well, and I love the name of that one. So that's my personal favorite. It sounds like

[00:06:21] DARIN NEWBOLD: something out of a sci fi book. 

[00:06:22] JOSHUA WARREN: the next one I think was named by a developer because it like it's, it says it in the name, doesn't it? So

[00:06:28] DARIN NEWBOLD: Take it from there, Josh.

[00:06:29] DARIN NEWBOLD: All

[00:06:29] JOSHUA WARREN: So the next one up is open PEM, which is a open source PEM. So yeah, definitely named by developer. Very. So it is very modular, easy to customize, really built around the idea of multi channel selling.

[00:06:45] JOSHUA WARREN: like all the other ones, it requires some technical resources, some technical know how. and it actually very similar to Ergonode, PHP backend, Vue. js frontend. So I would say if you're, again, if you're in that [00:07:00] ecosystem already, look at those two PIMs. Those could definitely be. easier for your team to get up to speed on.

[00:07:05] DARIN NEWBOLD: All right. And, and, the last one, gosh, I misread it, at least in my head. I was going to make a comment on it. I'll let you take this, this last one. I thought it was a distant cousin of the ergo node, but, maybe not.

[00:07:20] JOSHUA WARREN: maybe not, It's actually, aro Pim, which is a distant cousin to aro core, which. You probably haven't heard of most people I talked to in the US haven't heard of this is actually came out of a company in Germany and is relatively well known there.

[00:07:34] JOSHUA WARREN: Atro PEM. It's a complete comprehensive pen PEM. It's very modular requires those tech resources to use. It's built in PHP on top of a system called Atro Core. And Atro Core is something that this company in Germany built out. that kind of serves as any type of master data management that you need for your business and for your business workflows.

[00:07:57] JOSHUA WARREN: There's different ways to customize AtroCore. [00:08:00] One way that it's been customized is to actually use that AtroCore base to build Atropim. So if you really have a lot of data things you want to do and you want to customize, it can be an interesting one to look at. it's that PHP base. The interesting thing is they use backbone JS on the front end.

[00:08:17] JOSHUA WARREN: So I don't see that one coming up, especially in the U S as much in the e com world. but if you're the type of person that as soon as I started talking about actual core and the ability to make your own apps based on it, you started getting excited, then actual PIM is for you.

[00:08:32] DARIN NEWBOLD: Well, there you go. Well, those were, those were the open source that at least, we kind of felt were the top ones, but how do you compare those now to the commercial side?

[00:08:42] JOSHUA WARREN: So I definitely recommend, you know, I feel like a lot of people will come in at it and say, okay, open source is free. Therefore I want open source, or they will say, It's like the old joke or the old campaign of no one ever got fired for selecting IBM.

[00:08:59] JOSHUA WARREN: So there's some [00:09:00] companies that'll say, well, it's safe to buy the big commercial product that everyone's heard of. So, but what I've really feel like you have to do is sit down and actually just do the math and add up and say, okay, this is what the license and support costs are going to be for this commercial PEM versus, okay, no license costs, but here's what the Hosting and support and maintenance costs will be for this open source PEM.

[00:09:21] JOSHUA WARREN: And just add that as one of the elements of your matrix as you're making your decision. And I find that in some cases, the open source PEM really makes a lot more sense. And in some cases, the commercial one does like so much in the e commerce world. There's not a one size fits all recommendation. You really have to tailor it to your business.

[00:09:40] DARIN NEWBOLD: All right. Well, let's, let's kind of switch gears a little bit on this. Still staying, obviously, with PIMS, but what are some of the kind of big challenges that come up when someone you're implementing

[00:09:51] DARIN NEWBOLD: a PIM? 

[00:09:52] JOSHUA WARREN: challenges that come up with someone [00:10:00] you're implementing?

[00:10:02] DARIN NEWBOLD: Garbage in, garbage out.

[00:10:03] JOSHUA WARREN: Exactly. Garbage in, garbage out. Very, true. you really have to look at the PIM as the, supporting software for implementing a workflow to improve your data.

[00:10:17] JOSHUA WARREN: And it needs to be cleaned. It needs to be standardized. there's some very cool stuff as we'll talk about in the last segment, using some of my favorite new technology. there's some very cool ways to use a PIM to, Improve your data quality much faster than without a PEM, but you're still going to have to do the work to improve that data.

[00:10:38] DARIN NEWBOLD: Gotcha. So what about, what about integration complexities?

[00:10:43] JOSHUA WARREN: So lots of times, again, people think, Oh, PEM, composable commerce, everything just connects. And especially where I see a lot of challenges ERP side, especially if, you're an e commerce business and you've been running for a long time without a PEM. Maybe [00:11:00] you've already kind of hacked away towards an integration between your ERP and your e commerce site, but then you kind of have to figure out, okay, how does that change when you implement the PEM?

[00:11:11] JOSHUA WARREN: Are you going to then ideally would change it to where the e commerce site connects the PEM connects the ERP, at least for product data. And so that means you're going You are having to rethink some of your existing integrations. again, if you have built your e commerce stack around the idea of composable commerce, this is a lot simpler if you have it and it's all one giant monolith, then good luck.

[00:11:34] JOSHUA WARREN: You're going to be rewriting a lot of code. Same thing. If you're relying on a third party extension that integrates your ERP into your e commerce platform, well, you're probably about to have to go buy another extension to integrate your ERP into your PIM. And so definitely recommend. Taking that composable approach more than the extension or monolith approach these 

[00:11:56] DARIN NEWBOLD: Absolutely. Well, what about, what about your users? How them, [00:12:00] their adoption and training? 

[00:12:02] JOSHUA WARREN: I mean, any, major e commerce change initiative, you're gonna have challenges around getting people excited about it because you're changing their jobs. You're changing the way something works. And this is where we're having some interesting conversations earlier here at Creatuity about. The relationship between merchandising teams and e commerce teams, because I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly with that.

[00:12:24] JOSHUA WARREN: And lots of times it's a tense relationship. And sometimes I think it's because the merchandising team may be frustrated that we keep having to use spreadsheets to update our product data. And we see our colleagues at other companies that have these really cool tools. PIM, and now it's, Oh, e commerce team is making us change how we manage our product data.

[00:12:42] JOSHUA WARREN: We're having to learn something new. So definitely, just standard change management, plan some training time, also involve key stakeholders outside of e commerce, pull the merchandising team in, pull the tech team in, really get their buy in before you start your big PIM implementation.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] DARIN NEWBOLD: buy in before you start.

[00:13:09] JOSHUA WARREN: So some PIMS, and especially we talked about a couple during the previous episode about commercial PIMS. There are some commercial PIMS that are very streamlined, very inexpensive. Completely not flexible. That is kind of how they make themselves so inexpensive is they work one way and one way or only.

[00:13:26] JOSHUA WARREN: So just know the level of customization and flexibility you need and go into this picking a PEM that meets that level. So if you know you need extreme customization, extreme flexibility, That's where PimCore is probably going to make a lot more sense in either the open source or paid edition just because you have that source access versus if you know you don't need any of that and you want something very simple and lightweight, then you can look at one of those cloud based commercial PIM solutions.

[00:13:56] DARIN NEWBOLD: RAPPS. Interesting. Well, let's

[00:13:58] DARIN NEWBOLD: talk the future. What's [00:14:00] that future look like for PIMS and e 

[00:14:02] JOSHUA WARREN: Oh, my favorite topic. so AI. Yep. So there are some cool things. I mean, every, product, including PIMS now says now with AI and says that, you know, it's going to revolutionize everything. Yes and no. But what I have seen that's been most interesting is again, from a composable commerce standpoint, Teams that have deployed open source PIMS or PIMS where you have access to the source, and it's a little bit easier to do some of these integrations, they're pulling chat GPT and other AI tools into the process where you can actually have AI checking the data for you.

[00:14:38] JOSHUA WARREN: So mentioned data quality problems earlier. there was a really good presentation at Meet Magento UK last year of a brand that just dumped all their product data out of their PIM and into an Excel sheet. Uploaded that Excel sheet to chat GBT and just had it at a new column where it improved the product data.

[00:14:58] JOSHUA WARREN: and a human had to review [00:15:00] it. They didn't just bulk edit that and bulk add it, but it saved them a substantial amount of time. And now, I mean, that was over a year ago, a year and a half ago. Now, Especially looking through a composable commerce lens, it is so much easier to do that automatically, where you're not even downloading a spreadsheet, that when the product is first ingested into the PIM, very first thing it does is call that open AI API and do a little bit of AI magic to improve your product data.

[00:15:27] DARIN NEWBOLD: bit of AI magic. Yeah,

[00:15:32] JOSHUA WARREN: Yeah, so there are There's obviously the cloud based PIMs we mentioned, but there's also, there's been a shift and a move of a lot of the open source PIMs to offering a platform as a service cloud based edition, that just make it a little bit more scalable.

[00:15:48] JOSHUA WARREN: The initial demand there was the actual e commerce platform, because that's typically what's under a heavier load than the PIM, but even on the PIM side, we're starting to see that. And especially as, product catalogs get bigger and [00:16:00] bigger, you're dealing with more and more data. That's an interesting thing to look towards in the future.

[00:16:05] DARIN NEWBOLD: Interesting. And then I'm guessing that to keep up with the future Omni Channel capabilities.

[00:16:09] DARIN NEWBOLD: Yeah, 

[00:16:11] JOSHUA WARREN: very important. and this is something that when I first started exploring the PIM world years ago, maybe there was support for, there was actually one PIM. They used it to charge you extra. You charge, they charge you per channel you're publishing to, but now really, and moving into 2025.

[00:16:29] JOSHUA WARREN: PIMS really can integrate seamlessly across all your channels. So you can have the data in there for your stores, for your website, for if you're using like third party delivery apps that need to expose your product catalog. And it's so cool because bringing that AI back into it, all those places, they need a different length of description.

[00:16:48] JOSHUA WARREN: Like the description of a product that your store uses is typically very short. Your website, you need much greater detail and those third party delivery apps and other places you might be [00:17:00] syndicating out to, they kind of need something in the middle. And with some of these PIMs and what they're doing with AI, you can auto generate each variation that you need.

[00:17:08] JOSHUA WARREN: So you're adding on new channels without adding on any extra, man hours of work. Yep. So always fun. I think this comes up more on customer data platforms, which we talked about a few weeks ago. GDPR and all that fun stuff, but especially with, looking at all the regulatory requirements around any sort of regulations that touch on your products. And you might think, Oh, I'm not selling firearms.

[00:17:38] JOSHUA WARREN: I'm not selling medications, but, Especially, I mean, now California has banned certain food dyes from products and there's labeling requirements, of course, around anything that contains lead. There's all these different things that, PIMS can really help you make sure that your products are compliant.

[00:17:55] JOSHUA WARREN: The best use case I've seen for this has been, a brand that was [00:18:00] selling ammunition and there are different regulations in different states about ammunition and even different places where they just didn't even want to sell it. And so at the PIM level, they were able to control, okay, based on what is required out there in the world and the different regulations, do or don't send this product out to that channel.

[00:18:18] DARIN NEWBOLD: Interesting. And then last year, implications for, overall

[00:18:22] DARIN NEWBOLD: implications for e commerce. 

[00:18:24] JOSHUA WARREN: I think if you don't have a PIM, you need to get one. And that's about all the time we have left, I think, for me to chat about that. But I'll talk more in the newsletter about kind of where PIMs are going, and how that really impacts e

[00:18:38] DARIN NEWBOLD: going and how that really affects it.

[00:18:58] DARIN NEWBOLD: Appreciate you jumping in and [00:19:00] tuning in. Definitely lob questions to Josh. We'd love to hear from you and hear, your experiences, good, bad, and the ugly. And as always, we appreciate you being here. Thanks a bunch. We'll catch you next time on Commerce Today.

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