Unknown Speaker 0:00 Oh. Joshua Warren 0:06 So this is probably the biggest one if I'm a Shopify or an Adobe or someone like that. This one would be on my radar because they basically talk about how platforms could be looked at as intermediary services are, hey, we just provide the E commerce platform that allows them to sell these goods. But then they say some also make rules and offers central marketplace infrastructure. So what are their responsibilities and liabilities? And I think one example here is there are some platforms, I believe Shopify is one of them that just said, Hey, you're not allowed to sell firearms on our platform, but they allow other things. And what if one of those other things could be just as dangerous or cause as much harm as a firearm? Are they now liable because they made a decision on certain things aren't safe in their eyes, so they can't be sold on Shopify, but other things can be. Darin Newbold 1:00 All right, and welcome everyone back to Commerce Today. My name is Darin Newbold. And as always, Josh Warren is here with me to share all that's going on in the world of commerce that's happening right now. And by Goodness gracious, this is almost a in the news of the moment of the past week or so of information that we're going to talk about this time. And it's all about reviving trust in E commerce. And it's the six actionable strategies from an unlikely source. So Josh, who is this unlikely source, Joshua Warren 1:35 so nobody believed it when I said I read minutes and trade documents in my spare time. But this is because you can believe it out of the United Nations. The United Nations Conference on Trade and Development had a meeting. That wrapped up yesterday, actually, on July 4, so July 3, and fourth they met and they were talking specifically about consumer confidence in E commerce. And they released a report we're going to talk about with six actionable steps. But what what caught my attention is the press release, and the article says, Hey, here's the six great ideas, we're just sharing with E commerce, merchant sharing with E commerce platforms, almost a very carrot approach. But then in the minutes of the meeting, you kind of see the stick as well, where they actually say they outlined six areas, they're going to be pushing for regulatory action. And they happen to be the same six areas, Darin Newbold 2:31 how convenient. And the whole idea around this for you, for you listening, these are things that as an E commerce director you need to know about, because it's coming down, and especially as ecommerce breaks barriers, across everywhere, and definitely International. This is where a lot of this really comes into play. So all right, let's, let's take on our first one that we have here is clear information. So tell me Josh, what are they? What are they kind of getting out with this clear information piece. Joshua Warren 3:07 So they talked about the basics, as far as good product data, good product descriptions, but the other thing that they kind of buried in here is reviews and ratings and the scourge of false reviews and merchants deleting all the negative reviews, maybe paying off people to leave positive reviews, that sort of thing? Well, in the they also talk about one of the interesting things is they do talk about Darin Newbold 3:35 digital influencers and how that plays out. And they even call out the United States as well as Colombia, Peru and Poland, that at least those four countries have issued guidelines on how how these digital influencers are to make appropriate and clear disclosures to consumers. Joshua Warren 3:54 Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's been a challenge in a lot of countries. I know, especially in the US there were for till they made these rules. A lot of people out there promoting products on streams, especially without saying, Hey, I was paid to say this, I was paid to say that this product is going to solve all of your problems. And yeah, I thought that was an interesting grouping of nations. It's not often that you see Colombia, Peru, Poland, in the United States are the four leading the way. So Darin Newbold 4:20 yes, rarely going to put those in a sentence other than here. Well, let's go on to the next one, which this one's a little as you were, and I were talking before, before the show, this is a little scary, and it's talking about safe products. And I think I think we we in the United States tend to because of the related regulations have been there. And I don't know it's just not something that we overtly think about. Yes, we have unsafe products, many times it's children's products, which are scary and we want to fix and that but typically was handled quickly. So what's the area that the the UN and what's there Proposal. Joshua Warren 5:00 Yeah, so they actually found, they did a sweep across 21 different countries and found basically products that were recalled and prohibited from sales and other countries were still being sold online in those. So you might have something where there's a product that is deemed unsafe and recalled the United States, and all of a sudden, it's appearing on ecommerce marketplaces in South America and things like that. So definitely some bad actors there. And it is interesting when you think about it, like we take it for granted that if I go into a store and buy something, I assume it's not going to catch on fire, I assume it's not going to have basic safety issues. But especially with platforms like Ollie Express, that make it so easy that anybody in the US can go order something direct from China, from anywhere, you know, anywhere, yeah, may or may not have the same safety regulations, as they have here, or may even be a product that has been deemed unsafe in China, but isn't on the radar of US regulators. Yet. Darin Newbold 5:59 That's crazy that it is kind of crazy. And it's one of those where, like is a you just don't think about it. And you and I were talking about, you know, whether or not we how we choose to buy products, e commerce, and if we know we are going to buy something from from an international place, changes, changes the buyers decision that may changes my decision criteria and how I look at it. Joshua Warren 6:22 And another thing on the safe products kind of an interesting thing here is they actually call out that they want to see ecommerce platforms, not just marketplaces, but actual platforms, doing things too. They say promote not enforced, but I think it's going to be enforced product safety, through collaboration with national authorities. So that starts making me wonder like, are they expecting Shopify to take a feed of banned products, the United States and make sure no Shopify site is selling those like, what is this gonna look like? So? Well? Darin Newbold 6:54 And will it be that easy? Yeah. Because I can't imagine day one, it would be that easy. It's, you know, our will do they did take the time and effort to go upload or download the CSV file that then they have to put into their site to see if they're selling anything that's, that's been blacklisted, or whatever. Yeah. Joshua Warren 7:12 And this is where I wonder like, they seem to be pushing towards wanting, wanting to be required and wanting the platform to do it instead of just the merchant. And that's where you see this in a lot of industries and a lot of the tension between capitalism and regulation of I think they're looking for the e Commerce Industry to police itself. But they're also saying, Hey, if you don't, we'll do it. And so I think it's really important that merchants and platforms are having these conversations about how they ensure all the products that they're selling are safe, because if they don't, then the government well, Darin Newbold 7:47 yeah, and it's, that is a tough one. Because who, who makes that decision? I feel at times, we've almost gone over the top in, you know, creating safety situations, where if if you operate as a human being on the planet, and you ought to know, not to shove something into a socket, or whatever, and, and all those things, and yet, there's the relate regulations that help prevent just those very things from happening. Joshua Warren 8:17 It's always the interesting thing. When you and I are traveling in Europe, I know we've joked and talked about how all the places that you go here where there would be guardrails and warning signs. And there, it's like, you want to step off that cliff? Well, that's your problem. Darin Newbold 8:32 Well, in there is the litigious nature, that does happen here in the US. And we're gonna get to that in a couple of points. All right, we'll, we'll hold off on that when folks. So the next up is is simple data protection. So making sure that a what are they going to do once I put in my name, address, city, state zip, and more importantly, my credit card information? What happens to that? Does it get sold to the highest bidder? How does that work? Joshua Warren 8:57 Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting because they, they talk a bit about algorithms and personalization. And they really target social media platforms here. And I think that's what they're really going towards is a are these ecommerce merchants then either selling or sometimes without realizing it, sharing this data with the social media platform and how they then using it. And then they also called out that recent survey where 72% of people were worried that if their data is fed into an artificial intelligence algorithm, and something goes wrong, no one is responsible, and that there will be these problems that will remain unaddressed. So I think this area is evolving due to concerns around AI. So Darin Newbold 9:40 what would that help me understand that I read that and I'm, when when they say went wrong, what does that mean that they put in my name or whatever, and suddenly, I'm on Well, let's use the no fly list or whatever. And suddenly, I show up on the no fly list. Is it that kind of situation that they're talking about Josh? I don't think Joshua Warren 9:59 So I think the first example I think it would this is a few years ago, people started catching on actually, this is a few years ago before COVID. So six years ago, people started noticing that there were some places airlines were doing this. But even at one point, I think it was Walmart, there was a major retailer in the US doing this where an algorithm would basically predict the price you are willing to pay. And so two different people could go to the same product or the same flight and get two very different prices. Wow. Now what if that's based on inaccurate data? What if that's based on an assumption about how much money you do or don't have? Or kind of the concern with some of this AI work? What if they I doesn't realize this, but what if it's based on the color of your skin? Because the algorithm has some bias built into it? Darin Newbold 10:48 Yeah, that's all right. Bad pizza there. That is, that's not good. And it is one of the reasons why when I'm ever asked how much income I make, I'm always at the poverty line. No matter how it plays out, so Wow, interesting. All right. Well, next up, the fourth one on this on this list is all right. You took the risk, you pulled the trigger, you bought the bag, the shirt, the widget, whatever it is shows up, not what you want, doesn't work, bro, whatever. I got a dispute. Now what do I do? Joshua Warren 11:22 Yep. So dispute resolution and returns. And something interesting they call out in this report is that cross border ecommerce just absolutely has to have some sort of effective online dispute resolution that that is just required. And I don't think we're there yet. I think I've heard so many people say, Oh, PayPal or some of these other payment services. But I've heard so many horror stories on both the customer side and the merchant side of those disputes going wrong. So I don't think there's necessarily a trusted third party dispute resolution approach. And we were talking before the show about how, you know, if I buy something on eBay, no, I'm not going to sue the seller. But I kind of always have in the back of my mind, I can return it. I can do a chargeback. I can do a lawsuit. There's all these things I could do. Well, if they're in another country, if I'm buying something from Indonesia, what am I going to do? You're stuck? Yeah. And so I do think that is slowing down cross border ecommerce. I think that they want to find a way. I mean, this group, really what it comes down to this group at the UN wants to increase commerce between countries, they want all the countries selling more and selling more to each other. And I think they've realized that in order to do that, we have to have better dispute resolution for these online transactions. So Darin Newbold 12:42 Josh, as we're thinking about different things, maybe maybe being that third party arbitrage, in between to settle these. He could collect a fee from both sides. There's a business idea here, Joshua Warren 12:56 there's yet another business idea, no, I'm not starting another business. I've got my hands full, but somebody can have their own for free. And I do think I mean, there are some services, there's the like almost brokerage type services, where you the seller ships the item to a third party, the third party evaluates it gets the funds, like does all that. I think what the UN is looking for here, something a little bit more streamlined than that, where you're still just shipping it straight to the customer. But if something goes wrong, there's this trusted third party that steps in for the dispute. Darin Newbold 13:27 Yeah, definitely, definitely something to try to solve. And it's a big one. And it's not going to be easy. So all right, another fifth on our list clearly defined platform liabilities. So help me understand what their your what they're looking at, when they say define platform liabilities. Joshua Warren 13:47 Yeah. So this is probably the biggest one if I'm a Shopify or an Adobe or someone like that. This one would be on my radar because they basically talk about how platforms could be looked at as intermediary services. So hey, we just provide the E commerce platform that allows them to sell these goods. But then they say some also make rules and offer a central marketplace infrastructure. So what are their responsibilities and liabilities? And I think one example here is there are some platforms, I believe Shopify is one of them that just said, Hey, you're not allowed to sell firearms on our platform. They've made that decision. Just not allowed. But they allow other things. And what if one of those other things could be just as dangerous or causes much harm as a firearm? Well, are they now liable because they made a decision on certain things aren't safe in their eyes, so they can't be sold on Shopify, but other things can and I think the UN is really looking for they call it considering different levels of E commerce platform involvement and obligations in protecting consumers. Darin Newbold 14:54 Well in that and that goes cross border as well because what what might be I verboten in the United States might be no big deal somewhere else and vice versa. And you just don't know. So it does become one of those challenges of you know, I'm starting to feel like who watches the watchers? They are a little bit I mean, it's like, you know, how do you how do you manage all of this? Well, all right. Last but not least on our fun list of, of six items, strong law enforcement. So now we're now we are getting to the watchers and watching the watchers. So we've got everything from confirm shaming to, oh, we're really talking about dark, dark pattern dark patterns. Yeah, let's, let's dig into a little bit of that, Josh. Joshua Warren 15:42 Yeah, so for those that aren't familiar, dark patterns, they could also just be called Dark design patterns. These are these tricks that people have figured out in the the user design user experience process to basically trick you into agreeing to something that you might not have otherwise agreed to. And the example that I always think of is, you know, it's almost like the old infomercials where it's, Hey, you know, buy this for just $10. And then in the fine print it saying, and now you're gonna get one every month for $100. And there are some sites where you don't see it. But at the very bottom of checkout, there's a little checkbox that is like, white text on a white background that says, By checking this box or leaving this box checked, I am agreeing to this. And then confirm shaming, they're talking about basically the, the the pop up, after pop up of saying, you really don't want to save money, like don't you want to save money, you really want to save money here, don't you? And, and they're just trying to trick you. And it's interesting, they grew, they grew up these dark patterns under strong law enforcement, basically, not really even implying but just stating that law enforcement ought to get involved whenever merchants participate in these dark patterns. Darin Newbold 16:55 Yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, how do you? How do you police this? Wow, there's, in a way, it's still the wild wild west, in some pieces of it. We think it's been tamed. But there's a lot of untamed area here, and some places where things can go can go awry. And, and I know many of us have fallen victim to one or another these. I never heard of the con firm shaming until you are describing it here. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I got guilted into, you know, adding that oh, hey, for only only 10 more dollars, you can get all of this what seemingly things think you feel like is a bunch of stuff. And, you know, I don't know, it's interesting, interesting. What's your kind of overall gut on all of this, Josh? Joshua Warren 17:43 I think the most surprising part is the push towards ecommerce platforms to regulate things merchants are doing. And I think that will, that'll look different depending on your platform. You know, I'm a big fan of owning your platform and open source and that sort of thing. And I think that'll give you a little bit more freedom from some of these things. I think overall, especially the merchants that we work with, if you're doing the right thing, you're nailing all these six already, but there's always a little bit more you could do like you could always provide a little bit better information. Maybe highlight what you do to keep your product safe. Like I think this is still a good checklist to kind of make sure are we meeting all these but I think for the most part, it's the platform side where this is going to get real interesting in the next year or two. Darin Newbold 18:30 Why do you think it is that they that they're pushing for the platforms to do this? Joshua Warren 18:35 I think it reminds me of the way the IRS years ago now went to the payment processors and said, Hey, anybody that's doing this level of volume, you have to issue a 1099 to them as well. There are so many small ecommerce merchants, and especially when you look globally, I mean, they're just so many of them that trying to police each one, there's so many them flying under the radar, right. Whereas if you go to the platform, you go to Shopify, all of a sudden, here's 100,000 sites that are going to be hit with these regulations all at once. Darin Newbold 19:05 So you can make a bigger impact in one one fell swoop. And in a way, let's let's find the positive here and reframe this in a positive way. For the platform's sake, it gives them a reason for someone to come to them, because hey, we follow the quote unquote, international laws of good ecommerce, or the international guidelines for good e commerce kind of thing. So all right, well, wrapping this up one thing that a merchant needs to know, after all of this. Joshua Warren 19:38 It's a good question. I think, looking at the data protection portion, and we'll link to this in the show notes. But they talked about some really interesting things and some concerns about sharing data with social media platforms. And I think that that is something that, especially if you're advertising or even just using widgets from some of the social media platforms, you may be sharing more of your customers data than you realize. Darin Newbold 20:02 Wow, yeah. And immediately Yeah, the social media knows that it's been bought where all this the yeah, there's a lot of data. Goodness. Well, this has been quite illuminating Josh for both me and I hope for you the listener, this has been a fantastic opportunity to hear something new and just kind of right coming out. So with that, as always, we we appreciate you being here. love having you on board and until next time. That's it for Commerce Today. Transcribed by https://otter.ai