Julia Strand 0:00 Hello and welcome to the juice and the squeeze. I'm Julia strand here, as always, with my wonderful co host, Jonathan Peelle, Hi, Jonathan! Jonathan Peelle 0:10 Hi Julia! Julia Strand 0:11 Do you know what number episode this is for us? Jonathan Peelle 0:15 I do. Actually it's number 50. This Julia Strand 0:18 is the Big Five zero. Yeah. And in, in honor of that, I went ahead and and looked up some special things about the traditional 50th "podcast episode" and and how one normally commemorates that important occasion. Jonathan Peelle 0:35 Oh, I can't wait to hear Julia Strand 0:37 Yeah. Would you like to hear what I found? All right. All right. So as the the modern and traditional 50th podcast gift, the the important, the important element that we traditionally commemorate this with is, of course, gold, whether focusing on gold as a color or as a mineral, it represents success, achievement and triumph in podcasting. At this point in your podcast, there is no question that you and your podcast host are successful in podcasting and have achieved many goals, individually and together, and have triumphed over all that your podcast has thrown you. This is from foreveranniversary.com just to give credit where that's due, therefore, as a 50th episode, gift and symbol gold represents all that you have accomplished together and serves to remind you and your podcast host of the beautiful and successful podcast the two of you have led together. Jonathan Peelle 1:43 That's lovely. I'm gonna keep my eyes open for whatever gold you send me. Julia Strand 1:50 Well, yeah, stay tuned. You've got a gold what would be good? I guess lemon wedge? A gold lemon wedge coming your way. Jonathan Peelle 1:58 Yeah, I'll take it. That sounds, sounds good anyway. Well, that's great, yeah. Well, Julia, it's people don't know, or sometimes they forget that we mostly have gotten to know each other on the podcast. So when you tell me these things, I have no, it's not planned, right? I have no idea. Julia Strand 2:14 No that was a surprise anniversary. I mean, excuse me, podcast surprise for you. I What proportion of our conversations do you think have been recorded, like we have spoken, yeah, without a microphone on us... Jonathan Peelle 2:30 I mean, I would it over 90% surely, right? Julia Strand 2:35 yeah. This is, I feel like, you know, those people, there's like research, researchers who, like record every word their child learns. Oh yeah, you know, like, as, this is definitely the conversation, or this is, like, the, you know, the friendship that is more documented than any other I've ever had, certainly. Jonathan Peelle 2:58 So if anyone wants to do research on it, I will send you the sound files. Julia Strand 3:01 Well, our biographers will have them, Jonathan Peelle 3:05 Lucky them! Julia Strand 3:08 All right, as long as we are on like, you know, kind of more podcast about the podcast. I was at the psychonomics conference this weekend and was delighted to meet some new listeners. And luckily, I carry juice and squeeze stickers with me wherever I go, and so is able to make some people happy by giving out stickers. But listeners as a reminder, if you like listening to our podcast and you do not have juice and squeeze stickers, you can swing by our website or send us an email, and I will drop some in the mail to you the old fashioned way with it, with a stamp and everything. Jonathan Peelle 3:44 It's very classy. I mean, if it was just like a picture, like a JPEG file, that would not be such a good sticker, you know, Julia Strand 3:53 If it were a juice and squeeze. NFT, no, it is. We do the old fashioned way. I even like write a little note with my with my very own hand. Jonathan Peelle 4:02 And this is also a good opportunity to thank you, listeners for for listening. You're the reason we do it. And every time someone comes up and tells one of us that they listen to the podcast, or it's helped them in some way, or drop us an email, we really, really appreciate it. So thanks all of you for listening. Julia Strand 4:19 Yeah, yeah, we do, and we love getting your emails. And in fact, today's today's topic is one that is suggested, was suggested by a listener. So thank you so much, Skyler, you know who you are, but the topic that we've chosen today is based on your request. So please feel free to send us messages if there are things you'd be interested to hear our thoughts on. We are we have a long list of things we could talk about, but what we would like to talk about is things that you would like to hear about. Jonathan Peelle 4:50 But before we get to our topic, Julia, we have to do some really important debriefing on a really. Important event that happened in the last month. Julia Strand 5:04 Okay... Jonathan Peelle 5:05 which is: Halloween! Julia Strand 5:06 Oh, oh, I thought it was going to be the election. I got really nervous there. Sorry, where's my head Halloween? Yes, Jonathan Peelle 5:15 sorry, anyway, yeah, I didn't mean to spring that on you, but, but for people who don't know, Halloween is Julia's favorite holiday, and she may or may not, but definitely does go over the top almost every year. And so I am. I've just been waiting all month to figure out, oh, to hear what you did. Julia Strand 5:31 yeah, Halloween. Halloween was great. Did a whole bunch of decorating carts and pumpkins. We had more trick or treaters this year than ever before. I have a little clicker where I like, keep track of how many. And we had a whopping 210 this year, which blew our previous record of 187 out of the water. And yeah, and it was awesome. I also, like, I got a bunch of ideas for next year. One of my fog machines broke, and so I was down just one fog machine this year. And boy, am I gonna, am I gonna write that wrong next year? Okay, one of the things that I had been fascinated about, about Halloween, decorating and celebrating is so I was the first house in my neighborhood to, like, go big on Halloween. And since I have Well, I mean, correlation is not causation, but our neighbors, like kitty corner from us, have also started to go really big. And I am delighted by this. It is a thing I love. And now other houses in the neighborhood and some other people, like down the street, are starting to go big too. And I just love the idea that, you know, our intersection is going to be, like the Halloween destination of our town. That's that's awesome for me, but Jonathan Peelle 6:47 it's more fun to do it as a group. I mean, right? Julia Strand 6:49 I mean, so yeah, and it makes me feel a little less guilty for, like, having a bunch of trash in my yard, if other people are doing it too. But what I've been really struck by is, whenever people talk to me about the neighbors starting to go big, they assume that it's a competition. And they say, like, Oh, I see, you know, like, your neighbors have really stepped up their game. What are you going to do to like, counter it or something? Or like, how do you feel about your neighbor, you know, and, and I'm so surprised that that's where people's heads go, because I'm just like, imagine you love a thing, and then someone who lives in your neighborhood turns out also loves that thing. Why can't we just be extra happy about how we all love that thing together? Right? It's like, if you're a if you're a fan of a particular sports team, and then someone moves in next door and also loves that sports team. It doesn't like take anything away from you, right? It's just like, now a thing you can share to get together, yep. And so that little speech that I just gave is just a little speech that I have given so many times. I'm like, No, it's not. It doesn't have to be a competition. I mean, I'm not a competitive person to begin with, um, but I, you know, it's just, let's all share each other's joy. Jonathan Peelle 8:00 Yeah, I love it. And that brings me to one other follow up that we promised last time we were going to ask each other something that brought us joy instead of how's it going? So Julia, what's brought you joy in the last week, or whatever time period you want to consider, Julia Strand 8:23 I have been making a lot of art recently, and I love it, and it brings me joy and peace and a sense of accomplishment, but also relaxation. So I have this secret side career in art where I make sculptures out of vintage books. I like carve books. For more on that, listen to our episode on Hobbies, and I've been doing a lot of book carving. And it's cool, and it's great. That's great, yeah. How about you? Jonathan Peelle 8:52 You know, this is anyways, it's a simple thing, but I've been focusing in my in my life, on being aware of times that are joyful. Because for me, part of it is the actual activity, and part of it is, you know, sort of a mindfulness attitude, where I can enjoy the moment that's joyful, even if it might be surrounded by by stuff that isn't. And so one, one of many instances, was just sitting on my couch and having my three little kids attacking me and tickling them for about 20 minutes, and it was just great there. You know, they had pure joy, and I just kind of was able to let all the other worries of the day go and just enjoy being with them, which was great. Julia Strand 9:33 That's wonderful. Good for you. Jonathan Peelle 9:35 I was trying to think of a clever segue from that topic into our main topic... Julia Strand 9:41 So talking about things that that bring us joy and noticing it. You know, in this, in this multi faceted gig that we have professionally, there are some chunks of it that are often tedious, and there are some chunks of it that are often joy. All, and most of the chunks of it have have their ups and downs, but one of the chunks of it that we are focusing on today, here's my segue. Is one that is is mostly this is one that's like on the joyful end of of the continuum for me, and that is talking about mentoring undergraduates versus graduate students. And so our listener, Skylar, who was asking about this, was kind of asking for our different perspectives, given that I exclusively mentor undergrads. And Jonathan, can I say primarily mentors grad students? Jonathan Peelle 10:35 Yeah, I have lots of undergrads, but I would say I spend more time with the grad students for sure. Julia Strand 10:41 And so, yeah. So our topic today is kind of thinking about what our approaches are for for teaching and mentoring that are that are different for for these two groups. And I started off by saying, like this is one of the things that that brings me joy, in part, to make a clever segue, but also in part, because this is really, I mean, this is my favorite part. Is the part where I get to, like, work closely with great students and help them develop professionally and personally. And, you know, this is very this part of the job is very different from, like, IRB applications and granting annual reports and things where it's like, I see the point, but it's not bringing me joy. There's no joy entering, like most mentoring meetings and most of those experiences, I'm happier after. Jonathan Peelle 11:36 And we have talked about mentoring in the past, but it's been a while, and I don't remember what we said, so we might repeat ourselves a little bit. But do you have any like, overarching principles or like, I don't know, yeah. How do you think about mentoring? You have a new person who comes into the lab. You know, step one is, is what? Julia Strand 11:58 Yeah. So, so when it comes to, like, training, like, like onboarding people to be involved in research. When I have, I have so I typically have like, eight to 10 students who are working in my lab at once, and I will bring in like three to four new people each year, usually, like, like at a time. And I used to, I used to just, like, have them start by just jumping into the lab, meetings with with the existing students, like working on, working on ongoing projects and and I realized that that's like, a little bit kind of throwing people into the deep end. But I thought that that was useful, because I wanted them to see, like, what they were aiming for, right? I wanted them to be able to, like, see the more senior students who are talking eloquently about these projects they've been working on for a long time. And, you know, and really, like, get to see how the sausage is made right away. But the feedback that I got from students about that experience is it can be super intimidating to just get dropped into the middle of an existing group that, like knows a lot more than you do, and has a lot more experience than you do, and it can make imposter syndrome flare, and, you know, make people kind of feel pretty like nervous and self conscious, about about about where they are and how they belong, and things like that. So now I have people come in in cohorts, and in addition to the like regular empirical lab meetings that they all go to, I also have just the lab people meet the just the new lab people meet with me once a week to go through, like A relatively structured onboarding curriculum to make sure that everyone who works in my lab has definitely, you know, read these handful of seminal papers that are very important, and has, like, had conversations about various, like, cultural things in the lab that I that I think are really important. And this this shift to, like, a really deliberate onboarding of new students with an eye both on like, the content that they're getting and like, quote, unquote, soft skills has really, like made a big difference. It also is an opportunity for me to like, get to know who they are, like, like, one on one, or, you know, in small group settings, to like, get to know them better just as they're coming in, which, you know, like, building that relationship, I think, helps people not get lost as well. Yeah, for sure. So okay, so the question of, like, someone who comes in day one, like, what? What do you start with? I think the answer to that is, like, is like, trying to be really mindful about who they are and where they are coming from, and like, what they hope to get out of this experience and and all of that stuff depends on, like knowing them right, and like knowing their background and knowing what they're interested in. And so it's. A, I think they're like, can't be a one size fits all answer to that. And so trying to, like, set up structures whereby, when they come in, you can, like, get that information about who they are and what they know and what they want and you know and what they need, is something that I've, like, tried to be more mindful of the longer I've been doing this. Jonathan Peelle 15:21 Yeah. One of the things I did so when I first started having a research lab, I did not have any graduate students. I also only had undergraduate students. And you know, some of them would ask about doing an honors project, which was great, and but my approach to that has changed over the years. And so I started off really giving them a lot of latitude, you know. So, you know, of course, I do speech and language and aging, but I would say, you know, within that broad, you know, category, what are you interested in? Because I wanted them to have ownership over it and so on. And that had some positive parts, because it gave them freedom to explore. And, you know, all the all the things that were good and I would help guide them through it. It also had some challenges with it, including, you know, because we do a lot of experiments, every experiment, or almost every experiment, needs some kind of stimuli. And so if someone started with, like, all of the questions about speech and language in the world. They were typically not coming up with experiment ideas that we already had stimuli for so that, you know, it's a one year honors project, say, and they would start in September, and it's like step one, you know, get the stimuli ready. And for anyone who's ever done a good job with experimental stimuli, especially if you're recording a live talker, it takes a lot, a long time and a lot of effort, and you have to worry about a lot of aspects. And so I would find, among many other challenges, that so much of their experience was taken up making stimuli and very little data collection and basically zero analyzing the data, and, and then the other problem was these projects would get orphaned because, you know, they weren't able to finish it in a year, and no one else was doing whatever you know, how upside down T's affect your speech, perception, what some, you know, some niche thing that they thought of and, and so the project would just Drop. And it felt like a big waste of my, of my time and effort, not to mention theirs, because we had spent an entire year on a thing that just sat there, unpublished and, you know, underpowered and not analyzed and all that. So I really shifted and very intentionally, really for anyone doing a one year research project to making sure it related to something else going on in the lab, and that had a couple of effects, so, you know, and again, typically, that would also mean we had the stimuli ready and some kind of analysis plan or whatever, but it also meant that I would be, it was Guaranteed. It would guarantee that I'm engaged in their project. So in a perfect world, I would be interested in everything everyone's doing. But in practice, you know, this year, I have one particular grant I'm thinking about writing. And you know what, if you're working on a project for that grant, it's much easier for me to, like, meet with you enthusiastically every week and tell you what papers to read than if I have to go learn a whole side field on upside down tees that I don't know very well. Yeah. And so now anyway, it hasn't been perfect. Only have had a couple of students publish their honors project, but we've gotten a lot closer, and it's really helped me to be a more effective mentor for that. And I said one year research project, because I also occasionally have graduate students who do like a one year project. So I had audiology students who would do a capstone project. And even though they were a graduate student and older, they also didn't have any background in that particular topic, and weren't in the lab for longer. So it was still just like, what can you do in nine months? And again, it felt a lot, just a lot better to give them, you know, something that was a bit more sketched out already, Julia Strand 19:13 yeah, and it's, and it's like, it's a balance, right? Because, on the one hand, you want to give them the latitude to pick things that they're interested in, and, you know, like pursue, you know, pursue the things they want to learn about. And while also like constraining them to a project that you think has a good likelihood of success, Jonathan Peelle 19:34 yeah. Well, and the thing, I was nervous, I guess, that some of the students would not like this, basically, right? And kind of grumble about it. And so far, no one has, I mean, they may have other things they care about, but they usually seem quite happy to work on whatever, as long as we talk about it and kind of explain it. And that's been gratifying. So my fears were unfounded, Julia Strand 19:57 yeah, and I think, like, especially. You, you know, they don't have anything to compare it to, right? So, like, they're not like, oh, but two years ago, people had more latitude in picking what they could do. And I think, as with with with everything you know, the more you like explain and justify why you're making the choice to show that it's not arbitrary. That goes so far too. Yeah, Jonathan Peelle 20:21 right. Well, and that way, you know, in terms of your, I love your approach to kind of onboarding, and we've done something similar, but I also make sure so typically, when people start in the lab, they're not all doing independent projects. They are helping out on other projects. And, you know, sometimes it's, it's more, you know, I don't want to say boring, but I do, because I'm too honest. I'm like, You know what? You're this product. This is boring. You're going to be listening to 1000 sound files and make sure they sound okay, or whatever. But if they know, okay. But then we use those sound files for such and such an experiment, which then gets written up. And here's why, you know, they kind of see the arc of the research project. It does help quite a lot, I think. And then, of course, if they stay in the lab, I move them on to to more independent projects. Yep, yep. So I kind of contrast this with PhD students, just in that, with the PhD students, I they are in the lab for more for more time, and I think it's extra important that they also learn how to ask questions. I still typically give PhD students something concrete when they start like that. I think, you know, of course, we talk about their long term goals, and then I say, Okay, well, here's a project that will help you realize, you know, X, Y and Z, which might just be learning the background, or learning how to analyze fMRI data or whatever. But the idea is that that gives them something to start on that has really strong direction, while at the same time they think about, okay, how do I want to extend that, or maybe change direction over the next four to five years. And so far, that has also seemed to work pretty well. So I don't want to just leave them totally floating. But also, you know, I think it's really important they learn how to ask questions and how to parameterize experiments and things like that. So I want to give them the freedom to do that. Boy Julia Strand 22:21 and so, and this, this, like, this butts up against, I mean, so there's a question of like, what is the project that they're doing, and what are the stimuli for it, and all of that and and that set of like, what are the technical skills? What are they actually working on? But of course, mentoring also involves a bunch of other stuff that isn't just like, what's the project that they're working on, but like, how do we teach them about how to think about the next project, as well as, like, all of the soft like, didn't we come up with an alternate word for soft skills? Jonathan Peelle 22:53 I don't remember. Julia Strand 22:55 Maybe we tried call them, like, valuable skills, generalizable skills. Yeah. You know, by which, by which, by which, I mean the stuff of like, how to work in a team and how to stay organized, and how to, like, set expectations and meet them, and how to, you know, talk about and fess up when you do things wrong, and like, all of the stuff that is not. How do we counterbalance the experimental conditions in this experiment, but like, you know, the stuff that's actually generally applicable, yeah, so how do you think about I mean, a lot of that, a lot of those, I'm not going to say soft skills, because you can't see my air quotes. Gentle listener, I am doing air quotes with my hand every time I say soft skills, sorry, Jonathan Peelle 23:42 I have to interject Julia, so we will link to Episode 28 which we indeed called them "soft skills". But soft is in quotes. So if you're reading it, you can see the quotes. Just imagine Julia doing air quotes. Julia Strand 23:54 I want to call them generalizable skills. Jonathan Peelle 23:57 There you go. Julia Strand 23:59 And I think, like, early on, I kind of assumed that if you teach the content that stuff sorts itself out, right, like you by by asking people to, like, set a schedule and then meet it, they learn things about how to set schedules, um, but I have since become more deliberate about, like, trying to actually talk about that stuff and teach that stuff. Because I think these things that we assume, just like get picked up along the way, might, might not, if we not, if we don't explicitly try to teach them. Jonathan Peelle 24:33 Well the other thing I think, I also, you know, naively assumed that a, people would work it out and B, they would work it out in a way that was compatible with how I like to work. So I, you know, for the last several years, I really live by my, you know, electronic calendar, which, because of work stuff, is usually Outlook. So if you're, if someone has a meeting with me, it needs to be an invitation in the Outlook calendar. And if it's a Zoom meeting, the link has to be on there. But otherwise I'm not going to show up. And undergraduates for again, graduate students, really, most of, most of the people in my lab, do not have that mindset. That's just not how they think. And so they could figure out a really organized system for their meetings that involves a little paper calendar they bring around with them everywhere. And they've, yes, they figured out that soft skill, but it doesn't work for me because I'm not in their paper calendar, so I've had to work on, you know, I could do better, but I try to be really explicit about certain things. One is meetings, and here's how you have to do it. For me, it's not a moral issue in your life. Do it however you want. But, you know, for lab stuff, for stuff with me, you know, please do it such in such a way. And then the other, the other thing I do is, we've talked in the past about base camp, which is the software I use for organizing lab projects. And that includes some calendar stuff, which I don't use, but it includes, you know, to do lists and things like that. And basically no one has taken to that naturally the way that I would like. And so I have to be really top down and demonstrate it. And just like every week at lab meeting, here's what a project should look like. And when I do that, then everyone starts using it and it's better. And again, in the rest of their life, they can do whatever they want, but for me and for my lab, it's important that it works for me. So yeah, I think all, I mean, there's, there's a longer list of ones we could go through, but yeah, I think explicitly going through these is really useful, Julia Strand 26:32 yes, and, and, like, justifying the rationale behind them. I think, like, helps, helps build generalizable skills too. Here's the example that I'm going to give. When I was 14, I got like my first, my first job, and it was waitressing at the Effie cafe, in which was the one restaurant in the town of 91 people in the far north of Minnesota where I grew up. And the woman that I worked for, her name was Kathy, was she, like, owned the restaurant and did all the cooking, and, like, ran the show, and was really just an incredible woman who made things happen, and, like, took care of business and ran a real tight ship, and she's like, where I learned about elbow grease and like bacon grease. And she had this thing that the other waitresses and I always complained about, which was that there was a different broom to sweep the front room than to sweep the back broom and room, and if you swept the room with the wrong broom. She would really, like, let you have it. And it was one of those things that we were like, This is so weird and arbitrary. Why do we have to do this? Why do we have to, like, go and switch brooms in the middle? And I was like, annoyed about it for a while, and then asked her about it, and she explained that, like, because the two floors were made of different materials, when one gets waxed, if you get the wax on that broom and then wipe the other floor with it. I don't remember exactly what the rationale was, but it was like, when this thing happens periodically, it like messes up one of the floors if you have used the wrong broom. And so even though that doesn't matter, most of the time, having this system in place, like, leads to a better outcome long term. And I'm so glad I asked, because now that I, you know, after I knew that, I was like, Oh yeah, no, that makes sense. Like, we don't want to mess up this floor, and if we're not in the habit of switching, we'll mess that up. And that, I mean, and that for me, like I feel like, if you were like, Julia, you didn't send me a calendar invite, what the whatever I'd be like, come on, Jonathan, just, just, why is it? Why? Why do we gotta use this system, right? But when you know the rationale, it like, lets you behind the curtain and you're like, Okay, I understand that when I when, when my calendar gets busy and it's time for me to schedule things, I'm gonna have to, like, be mindful about telling people how I want them to do it. If I don't want my floor to get messed up, I'm gonna need a system. And so that's like, I feel like telling people the rationale for what you're asking them to do helps them understand how to, like, craft systems of their own in the future too. Jonathan Peelle 29:19 Yeah totally right. Sort of like the process of, how did you come up with this? And what are the, what are the things you're trying to optimize, and then the actual solution, not that it's not important, but it's sort of, you know, that's separate than why, why you're coming with the process at all. Julia Strand 29:34 Yeah, right, right. Jonathan Peelle 29:37 Um, one, one thing I wanted to ask you, Julia, something I struggle with, I go through Fauci unfortunately for these types of skills and even, like research background things, one thing I struggle with is just a turnover in the lab. Or, I guess I should say the variable turnover in the lab. So for example, in the past, I actually. I haven't gotten my act together to do it this year, but in the past, I've had a list of of these kinds of skills that we go through in lab meetings. So how to make a CV, how to do a poster presentation, whatever, how to organize a calendar. I don't know, a lot of these things, and we go through them, and let's say we get through them over the course of an academic year, and then next September comes, and, you know, half of the lab graduates or leaves or whatever. And then we get a whole bunch of new students. And I want the new students to learn all that stuff. But then for the people that have been there, and, like, six months ago, we just talked about this, or a year ago, we just talked about it. It sometimes feels repetitive to me and so, and there's just so many things like that that I want everyone to know, but I don't know at what frequency I should be reviewing them. Do you have a, like, a proactive strategy for handling that so? Julia Strand 30:54 So this is one of the reasons that I do that, like designated onboarding for new students, is that anything that I think, if for, for any idea or fact or skill or whatever, that I want to make sure everyone who has ever worked in my lab knows this thing, that's the time when I do it and and then that way the people who have, who have, like been in The lab for a while, don't ever have to hear about that stuff again. I think the downside of that is it would probably be useful to like, you know, have like conversations, to like, re up stuff and and now that I'm saying that, we certainly do so if we're talking, you know, we talk about like, imposter syndrome and digital organization and all of this in the new student onboarding, so that everybody you know, we have a designated hour in the term where we talk about each of these, each of these things, but then those things come up again, naturally in future terms as well, right? And we can talk about them again, and we can talk about them knowing that we all have this shared baseline experience of that everyone talks about it when they when they entered. Yeah, and so I think it's useful for, like, building that, like, shared vocabulary, so that, you know, like, one of the one of the weeks in the new student onboarding is devoted to talking about the culture in the lab around around errors and error prevention. And for more on this, listen to our episode on error tight. Um. But you know, so one of the things we do is, like, read this curriculum that I've written called error tight, about how to reduce and catch mistakes, and the fact that we have, like, all talked about that for an hour in their onboarding means that then whenever I mentioned in a later lab meeting, oh, can somebody error type this blah, blah, blah, we all know what that means, even if they didn't all learn about it at the same time. And so that's, yeah, that's the approach I've used for, like, making sure nothing can fall between the cracks of being like, What do you mean? You're graduating from my lab, and you've never read the paper false positive psychology, right? I think is one of the best papers ever written, yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, doing it like, a little bit programmatically. Jonathan Peelle 33:11 I like that. We actually one thing we kind of fell into in the last year, if I've been kind of, you know, just for people who don't know, I moved to Northeastern University about two years ago, and I'm still right now, I kind of feel like I'm up, I'm up on my feet and kind of running again, but it's been a period of rebuilding and having all new people in the lab, and so it's a chance to, like, I don't know, revisit some of the lab organization stuff that was just tradition. But it also has been challenging, because there hasn't been any tradition apart from me, and so I'm kind of rebuilding all this stuff anyway, something that we kind of fell into, which I like, we've been doing, like a two hour lab meeting, but really trying to get through all of the I mean, what I would say, lab meeting business and the first hour, so announcements and and a scientific presentation, and any anything that, anyway, what I would Yeah, traditional lab meeting stuff the second hour is sort of professional development ish, and we've used that for an R workshop that the I had research coordinators and graduate students run for the undergrads. And we also have used that for some of these, you know, CV or poster skills, but it's been a little bit slapdash, just like, Hey, what should we do next week? And so I think I might, I might try to combine it with your onboarding approach, where we could go through certain topics regularly, and if people wanted to leave after their fourth year, they don't need the introduction to the CV, but you know, at least it's available on a regular basis. Julia Strand 34:41 One of the things that I really liked about formalizing the onboarding is that I now just have a list of what they read and what we talk about in order, and so I don't have to try to remember, and we don't have to do that. Oh, which we do next week. It's like, Nope, we just. Yeah, so that that's been that's been really helpful for me, because in the terms that I have new students, it does mean that I have like, an extra meeting a week scheduled in so like, the terms that I have new students are heavier for me, both because of that meeting and because I try to, like, meet one on one with them, to get to know them too. And so I'm very grateful to pass Julia when I just, like, have that list of of exactly what to do, makes it makes it a lot less work. Yeah, all right, so we've talked about, like, some practical things, and we've talked about some generalizable skills. One of the other things that I that I think a lot about when training undergrads, and this is like, very different from from training grad students, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You're gonna have to, you'll have to tell me is that I I know that most of the students who work in my lab are not gonna go on to be like speech researchers and work in academia like I am. I am not expecting that that most people will follow in my footsteps. And in fact, in my 14 years of doing this like there are a couple of students who have gone on to, like, do things that are somewhat similar to what I do, but the vast majority do not. And so that means that my my like goal in training is not to clone myself, right, but to give people skills that are going to be to give people experiences and skills that are going to be like, broadly generalizable. And so one of the reasons that I focus a lot on teaching open science practices and like really focusing on understanding and critically evaluating methodology, is that I think those are skills that will be useful, certainly in any area of research that they go into, but also in in just like being a well informed citizen who knows how to evaluate scientific information. And so I think a lot about training scientific literacy, and like, training coding and training writing and these things that are like, I mean, certainly important for research, but like, more broadly important. And so given, given the choice, I would like focus more on those than on, like, the specific methods that are needed to, like, conduct our area of research, right? Like, I really would emphasize the broader things? Jonathan Peelle 37:32 I agree. I think for PhD students, I think about whatever their project is, and a lot of them do require specific skills that they have to learn. But absolutely, I mean, you know, I forget what the percentage is, but it's a minority of people who get a PhD who end up, you know, as a professor at a major research university. And so I think, you know, again, Yeah, same thing. I don't want to make a lot of mini me's. I want to help them reach their goals and give them transferable skills, because they may not know where they want to, to end up, and so on. And that's really smart, something I started doing. Have you ever done an individual development plan Julia? Julia Strand 38:16 No, I actually, like just learned what those were recently. Jonathan Peelle 38:19 There's a bunch of online if you Google, you know, search for individual development plan or individualized development plan, you'll probably find some examples. I was thinking about this recently. I've I come in and out of doing, like, good weekly planning, but when I when I'm doing it, I think about, you know, what are my goals for the week? And then each day, what are my goals for the day? And I usually feel better about myself when I do that, as opposed to just showing up at work and just like doing whatever seems most urgent. But then I, you know, I never got beyond the week. And so I started thinking, Well, you know, for academia, I feel like thinking about a semester, What's my goal for this semester, or this academic year, or whatever? And so I've been trying to help myself think longer term and kind of translate that through my individual, you know, days and weeks. And I said, Well, why don't I do that with lab people? And so this year, I made a form. It's a simple form. I'll put a link in the in the show notes to an individual development plan with just a few little notes on it, of, like, how I think about it, and then I had everyone in the lab fill them out. And really, it's just, you know, it's a lot of blank pages saying, what's your goal? What's your regular goal? Like, submit a manuscript, and then what's a more? Like, tangible way to look at that. So, like, become a better writer is great, but it's too general. But a better goal might be, like, I like, what am I going to do for that? I'm going to sign up for a writing workshop this semester and practice 10 minutes a day, you know, something tangible and measurable. And I found that way of thinking to be really um. Really helpful, and I also so it's useful for for everyone in my lab. But I enjoyed going through that with my undergraduates, which I've never done before. And of course, for them, you know, we focus more on, like, What's your goal for this semester in the lab? But I encourage them to think about the next five or 10 years. Are they going to medical school? Are they, whatever are they, you know, going to be a carpenter? Are they going to do a bunch of traveling, like trying to help them think about whatever they're doing? Now, let's connect it with a thing in the future they care about, and that's been really useful. Julia Strand 40:35 Boy, but that's a great idea. There's a couple things I like about it. One is making people really think through what the intermediate goals, the steps are to, like, getting to a goal. So it's like, I wish I was a better writer. Okay, how do people become better writers? Guess I better practice. And that's, that's probably a super useful thing to actually make people reflect on. Jonathan Peelle 40:59 It was for me. I mean, I I was, I was required to do an IDP as part of a postdoctoral position I had, and I rolled my eyes, and I, you know, it felt kind of bureaucratic, but it did teach me about thinking of specific things I could do for specific goals, and that I think is really useful and also a great skill to teach people in the lab. This is not the main reason, but the what really gets me is things like, you know, okay, how much time do I spend every day, like sending emails or filling out forms or volunteering for extra work that isn't required? And in the moment that feels fine sometimes. But then if I think about my broader goals, like, I don't know anyone who puts on there, what do I want to accomplish this year is like, send more email, right? Like, no, I want to make a contribution to the field, or write a book or do a paper or or whatever. And so I think just realizing how other activities get in the way of our goals, which is also something we've talked about, is extraordinarily useful. The other thing I tell them, I say, Well, don't put it on the sheet you're going to talk about with me, but in your own brain, on your own copy of the sheet, put down things that aren't work or school related, you know, taking care of your health, taking care of your mental health, supporting your relationships. And that's also been something that's been useful for me. Instead of just okay, I'm thinking about goals, and everything on there is a work goal that's really not, not that helpful. And I do that for like, my weekly goals too. And again, I'm currently not in the habit of doing this, but I will try to get back. But the weeks where I am when I write down things like, get enough sleep or exercise and, you know, like, Okay, how many times am I gonna exercise? Three days a week? You know, being specific about it, I do better. I don't always do it perfectly, but I definitely do better. Julia Strand 42:53 Yep, yep, yeah. I mean this, this, like, kind of falls under the broader umbrella of, like, one of the things we're trying to teach people is how to make a plan and, like, what make, what makes a good plan, and how to, you know, how to, how to stick to it, and how to subdivide it, and talk about a generalizable skill, right? Jonathan Peelle 43:16 I mean, a lot of the I'm not an expert. I have only done a little bit of reading on this, but a lot of this come there are, like, scientific IDPs, but a lot of the thinking about goals also comes from kind of like management in the business world. And sometimes that means there's a little bit of a, you know, it's a different the different culture, in a different language, and sometimes it doesn't quite fit, but other times I feel like, like, why are we reinventing the wheel? There are people who think about goals and project management, and we shouldn't have to, like, invent it, literally study this. Yeah, yeah. Julia, one other question. It's a broad question, but I'm like, putting myself in in Skylar's mind a little bit, or anyone else who's interested in mentoring, what are some of the biggest challenges that have come up with you in mentoring at any level. And I'm sorry, let me just jump in and say this for you and for myself, we will anyway. We're not going to tell any specific stories about people just generally. And we've seen lots of other labs and people be mentored. So this is not going to be about any any specific student in our lab, but more more general. Julia Strand 44:24 Yes thank you. Good disclaimer, I think the hardest thing is figuring out how to walk the line of being supportive as a human and being, like, encouraging as a mentor. When you're your mentees are having a tough time for reasons, like unrelated to lab stuff. So if someone is going through mental health stuff or has family issues, or, you know, is is overwhelmed with work and is really struggling, um. Um, you know, I think, like old research culture might have been to just be like, well, times are tough, but you got to buck up and make it work. And that is, that is not my approach. It may, it may not surprise you, sure, but, but like trying to figure out what they need and how I can help, while maintaining a reasonable amount of professional distance and not trying to, you know, be their therapist, but to give them the support and help and encouragement that they need and figure out, like if there are still expectations that you know they should be held to. And of course, that's like the easiest to do when I know them well, right? And like, I know what kind of encouragement would be useful, or I know you know that what they are likely to need at this point is for me to say, Do you want to come up with a schedule for subdividing the work that you have, or if what they just need is a pep talk? Or, you know, because, like, on the one hand, I would like to help teach people that there is stuff that is way more important than research, like living a happy life and taking good care of yourself. And also that when things are hard under reasonable circumstances and when it is done to a healthy degree, it doesn't mean that, like everything in the world, like everything in your world, like professionally, has to fall apart too. So when I think about, you know, when I have gone through tough times and still managed to, like, you know, come in and teach class, and maybe it's not my best class, and maybe I write something and it's not the best thing I've ever written, you know, if something's hard, but, like, you know that that, like, not, I don't know like, like, help model and build resilience, that the more we train ourselves, that we can do hard things, the better we get at doing hard things. So that's what it is. It is not like, prioritize your research over anything else, right? Obviously, that's terrible, but, but practicing doing stuff that you don't feel like doing, I think, is like, a is a is a good skill, yeah, as long as it's done to a reasonable amount and doesn't make things worse and all of that. But so, I mean, you can hear just like the way I'm hedging this in both directions, that it's that it's a tricky thing. It's a tricky thing to counsel, right? When someone's like, I'm having a really hard time, what should I do? And part of me just wants to, like, wrap them up and give them a pep talk, and, you know, see what they need as a person, and how I can help with that. And part of them is trying to help them figure out, you know, the skills to work through those things on their own, and so that's hard, yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't want to, like, overstep and like you don't want to make them tell you more than they're comfortable to. You know, there's trying, trying to convey that message of like, I am happy to help and support you in all ways that are reasonable and appropriate and and I don't want to overstep, and I don't want to make you more uncomfortable. Jonathan Peelle 48:35 And you know, I think one thing that has often helped, which is, it's not, it's not rocket science. But, you know, I've had a lot of people who, you know, have felt less able to contribute than they would like because of stuff going on, and also felt really guilty about that. Yeah, and just being able to tell people, you know, you don't need to tell me the details, but do you take care of yourself, and it's okay if you don't come into the lab, or don't come in as much, or whatever, that has gone a long way towards just easing things with people, and sometimes people don't always share with me, and nor should they, but if I just have a sense that someone is going through something, I may tell them that out of out of the blue, or I might even make a lab announcement. That's general, but I hope that that person receives it, and so it's a bit, you know, I love the way that you describe it to Julia, but I guess I'm describing what might be complimentary is just a bit of a one way broadcast. It's okay to do, to step back, or whatever, and it's okay. And that people I've gotten thank you emails from people saying how much that meant, when, for me, it felt like not a big deal, and I almost didn't do it, but I think it does make a big difference. Julia Strand 49:46 Yeah yeah. And some of that is, like, right setting, setting cultural norms and expectations and so that when when stuff comes up, people feel better equipped to deal with it, and they don't have to, like, try to figure out what the rules are, yeah. You know, on the fly in. Moment also realizing, I mean, a thing that I was really struck by, that I that I learned early on in teaching, was was realizing that part of what makes it hard for students when they are struggling with something is like them being worried about disappointing me, right? That they're like, I'm so sorry I did badly on that essay. Like, I like, it's so hard to let you down like that, or something like, like, my opinion of them as a human being is based on how like the quality of like this particular essay that they write and and so, you know when I have these conversations with students to trying to help them understand that like their value as a human is distinct from their work. And then my like opinion of them as a human is distinct from like, the quality of like, any given thing that they turn in. And this. So I guess like, this is another, this is another, like cultural thing, right? Of like, helping people understand that it's okay to have hard times. And you know what part of that too, is like me being more open in ways that are appropriate and professional when things are hard for me too? Yeah, right. So there have been times where I've been like gang. I was I was I had hoped to have a draft of this paper back to you, but it's been a hard week, and I'm pretty overwhelmed, and we're going to kick that to next week, because it's just not there yet. And I'm going to give myself Grace about, you know, why I can't get that done for whatever reason, yep, because that, that that modeling, I think, is super, super helpful, too. Jonathan Peelle 51:55 Yeah, for sure, I was actually just thinking that Julia that I think, for mentoring at all levels. I mean, mentoring kind of implies that we as the mentor have an outsized impact on that development, or that we're taking charge for it. And I think, you know, most of it, mostly it doesn't imply like lecturing or didactic teaching. Mostly, I think it is sort of this cultural and setting by example. But I think some people are more intentional about that aspect of it than others, and I think being intentional is really helpful. I think you and I, I think are really on the same page about that, but it's just it's nice to say it out loud. Julia Strand 52:32 yep, yep. Another difference, and this is like, maybe a very obvious one, is that typically, you get to keep your grad students longer than I do. So undergrads, I try to, I try to, for the students who work in my lab, I try to get them, like, early on in their college careers, so that I have them for longer, but I will often, you know, get great students their junior year or even their senior year, and then I just have them for a much shorter period of time. So when I think about what it would be like to have grad students and have them for like, five years, six years, that's like a really different that's a it's just a different mindset, right? That the like, I think I in some ways, kind of have to be more like, very deliberate and intentional about, you know, like the onboarding curriculum, for instance, because if you only have them for a year, you've got to make sure that in that year, you know, you cover all these things that you want to cover. Jonathan Peelle 53:27 Yeah, yeah, for sure. I agree. And also, at the very same time, even five years goes pretty quick. And so I think, I think, like, I like, I do like having a little bit more of a standardized onboarding for everybody, and I think that helps everybody, including the grad students. And the one thing I'm sure, you do this with your more experienced undergrads too, but involving other lab members in the mentoring in the lab has been, you know, just really effective, because they typically have more time than I do, and then they get to learn how to be a mentor, and we can have the discussions that you and I are having now. Julia, we can have with our senior lab members and that, you know, kind of, yeah, pass it on. Pay it forward. Yep, pay Julia Strand 54:13 it forward, yep, all right. Well, Skyler, thanks so much for the question. And if, if if others have questions, please send them our way. We're always we're always happy to hear from you. Jonathan Peelle 54:25 juiceandsqueeze.net. Is the website which also has links for the episode, or you might see links in your podcast player of choice Julia Strand 54:32 and you can email us at the juice and squeeze@gmail.com Jonathan Peelle 54:36 Great. All right. Thanks everybody. Julia Strand 54:38 Thanks for listening. Talk to you next time Jonathan Peelle 54:41 bye.