Gandalf: But to get through those gates, he would have to pass the two watchers. And though carved from huge blocks of solid stone, some dreadful spirit of evil vigilance abode in them. And they were aware a sane being would've given up. but Samwise burned with the Magnificent Madness. Matthew: Hello, once again for a new episode of the IMMP podcast from the Inter Millennium Media Project. My name is Matthew Porter, Ian: and I'm Ian Porter. Matthew: I'm his dad. He's my son, and I've made him watch another movie, a TV movie, this one. Ian: A TV movie, ah, yes. Matthew: And there are, there are things that we watch that puzzle us, or things that I make you watch that puzzle us, and still puzzle me, about, you know, why, what was the thinking behind this you know, why, why did the director make these choices? There isn't too much that we've watched that is just utterly baffling in terms of its existence. And I think this is one of those. Ian: Absolutely. So, as we've been doing recently, we are continuing to watch our, wait a minute, this is, this is the Rankin Bass Return of the King. We haven't watched a Lord of the Rings or Two Towers by Rankin Bass. Dad, what's going on? Matthew: Okay, Ian: yes. Matthew: Well, for a previous podcast, we did talk about the Rankin Bass adaptation of The Hobbit. Yes, exactly. And then, as a follow up to the Rankin Bass version of The Hobbit, in 1980 Rankin Bass released a TV movie, an adaptation of The Return of the King. So they took this fantasy trilogy, perhaps the most well known, beloved, most influential works of fantasy fiction ever, right up there with Wizard of Oz, and in the present day The Song of Ice and Fire, The Lord of the Rings. And they adapted the third of the three books without having done anything with the first two books. Oh, and it was an animated musical. Ian: Yeah! A musical out of order rendition of the, of anything Lord of the Rings related is just Matthew: It is baffling. It is genuinely baffling. Ian: I'm trying to still wrap my, we watched this whole thing and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Matthew: And you go back to interviews with Rankin and/Or Bass about this and they talk about the fact that, well, they had the rights to The Lord of the Rings, but they didn't think people would , have the patience for adapting all three books. So they focused on the finale, the climax, where all the important stuff happens. And it's interesting. Some of these interviews were done not too long ago, you know, maybe 20 years ago now, I guess. And he's talking about, well, yeah, Peter Jackson's facing the same kind of challenges we did about adapting this material. And, oh, I guess we were wrong about whether people have the patience to sit and watch the whole thing. I guess they do. Ian: Yeah. Although now I'm just imagining if Peter Jackson turned around and said, We're making it a musical. Because that's, that's the even weirder part. Matthew: And a Lord of the Rings musical is not entirely unprecedented in that sense because there for a couple of years there, and this is something that we're going to talk more about at some point on Patreon, and that is Mad Magazine. And Mad Magazine. Once, for a couple of years there, they were very into the Lord of the Rings, and they did a parody of Lord of the Rings as a musical, with lyrics and tunes and things. What? But it was more serious, in some ways, and funnier in other ways. Ian: Okay. Matthew: But the fact that they start with the last book and they try to cover that in so many ways at the beginning because they have this complicated thing. The whole thing is narrated by John Huston who plays Gandalf and they start with this, well this is a story that begins at the end and ends at the beginning and time is twisting around. They're trying to like do a little sleight of hand so you don't notice that they're starting two thirds of the way through a trilogy. Ian: Yeah, this is less En Media Res and more En Media Resolution. It's like, where am I? It's like, it's already done, and it's all in flashback. Matthew: Right, it does sort of reduce the stakes a little bit. Not that there's a tremendous question about whether the good guys will prevail in a story like this, but it does. Lower the stakes because it begins with everybody gathering in Rivendell for Bilbo's one hundred and, is it his 129th birthday? And they talk about the fact that, we've all had such great adventures. And, Oh, look, Frodo has nine fingers. Why is that? And then they sit and listen to this minstrel tell this tale in song, which is the giant flashback that is the other 90 percent of the movie. Ian: I'm just imagining what that, like, that in other contexts. It's like, go through the worst day of your life, get home, put your bags down. And there's a guy with an acoustic guitar who will sing you the entirety of the day you just went through as a story. And in a way that almost pokes fun at your own failures there. It's like, oh, look at you. You forgot to buy milk. Why'd you forget to buy milk? It's like, that's the sort of attitude this starts with. Matthew: It's like, Gandalf, why did you bring him? You know he's the least welcome person at every party. He's the guitar guy. We really don't need him. We were having a fun birthday party, we got a cake, and now we gotta listen to him? Come on. Ian: Exactly. Matthew: Come on, G. So, Ian: that's the, that's the, that's the tone. That's the foot they start out this on. Matthew: But yeah, the whole, the whole rest of the story is in flashback. And they do make quick hits to mention, Oh, here's something you need to know and you only would have learned about it in the other two books. Like, who is Aragorn? And who is the king that we're talking about? Aragorn is prophesied to return to Gondor to be its king. But he can't do that until the ring's destroyed. So we're not gonna see him again for an hour and a half. Ian: Yes, this film is the return of Sir not appearing in this film, to use a Monty Python joke there. He just is there, doesn't do anything yet, and we move so quickly, we don't go through any of the other lands, we don't do anything else, we pretty much start from the Sam and Frodo at Mordor, right? Matthew: Well, they do a little bit of pre of, of recap because they reuse some of their animation from the Hobbit. Ian: Oh, yes. Matthew: Well, every minute we can take from that is a minute. We don't have to animate. And it makes sense if somebody is coming to this knowing nothing about The Lord of the Rings. There's nothing rank and Bask can do to make it less confusing but they try, and they give, what is the ring, who is Bilbo, who is Gollum, how did Bilbo get the ring, and then they have a little bit of the, well, the ring is evil and Sauron made it, we have to destroy it. But yeah, as far as the action goes, bam Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, and Frodo's been captured by orcs, and Sam is trying to figure out what to do with it. Ian: So, so we've got, yeah, the flashback to this story, and it, first step is, remember when Frodo got beaten up in an alley in Mordor? Yes. Remember how awesome Sam was for going to save him? That is one thing I'll appreciate about this film. This film is so much pro Sam propaganda. Matthew: Yes, yes it is. Ian: Samwise Gamgee is the The most, the most competent man in all of Middle Earth. Matthew: And they do show him with a lot of emotional conflict. At first, he, he figures, there's nothing I can do to save Frodo from these orcs, so I'm gonna pick up the ring and finish the quest. And then, he realizes, no, I've gotta go back and save Frodo and we can do this together. Ian: Yeah, and it's like, oh, Frodo is beaten up, the ring is lost, and Sam wanders in just with, almost an Old Spice commercial, it's like, Look at Frodo, now back to me, now back to Frodo, now back to me, what's in my hand? It's the one ring, I found it over there, look back, Frodo is now rescued. Matthew: Yeah, he does. Frodo kind of was a loot drop when Frodo was taken out. Because when Sam decides to take pick up on his own, he Oh, hey, Frodo left this ring. Frodo left this cloak. Oh, there's a thing in the cloak's pocket. I got all this cool stuff I can use now for the rest of the quest. Sorry, Frodo. Ian: Frodo drops a ring, a cloak and a knife when he's defeated. Matthew: Yes. Oh, that's right. Sting, Bilbo's old sword is still there. Ian: Sam just equips those and starts marching. Right. Matthew: And then he faces the Watchers, who have a barrier, and he can't go forward, so he decides to go back. Ian: And, and this is all, once again, set to music. There is all, like, half of the things are spoken, but the other half are sung and sung very repetitively. For a film that has cut a bunch of the things early on and is trying to compress a Lot of story into here. It's also stretching things out with music in equal measure Matthew: And I have to acknowledge, that is Rankin Bass's way of storytelling. I don't know that they've made anything that really wasn't musical, and it works. They know a rhythm of a story and how to work music into that to help contribute to the story. It's just a challenge when you're starting with a story where you have broken the rhythm so badly. Do the songs really help, or do they just kind of paper over the seams or attempt to? And they even have a few bits of explanation where, those are orcs Obilbo called those goblins. So all the stuff we said about goblins and all the animation we created about goblins for the Hobbit, we can reuse that about orcs here. Yeah. But to go to the music, like you were saying, some of the music and so much of the story is just so depressing. Yes. There's this whole song. sung by this minstrel who's telling us the story about how it's so easy not to try. Yep. You can just chill and let the world go by and, and, and not contribute anything. That's easy. He makes it sound pretty attractive the way he starts out. Ian: Yeah. It has the same sort of tone and feeling when you realize that , the writers of the song stop the world and melt with you. were talking about nuclear apocalypse? It's like, this is just Weirdly chipper for being about a very dark thing. Matthew: And we also, we get this long sequence as Sam is deciding what to do. The ring The, compulsion of the ring begins to affect Sam, and he says, well, I could take the ring and keep it, and I could be Samwise the Strong, and it has this long dream fantasy sequence of him leading armies of men and destroying Sauron and becoming king of Middle earth and making it look really nice because he is a gardener. It's what if you give the One Ring to a good hearted gardener? You start out with a really, really lush landscape. Ian: Yeah, you, you want to see like a, a dream sequence of militant HGTV? That's, that's Samwise Gamgee's ring vision in The Rankin Best Return of the King. Matthew: Yeah, it's like Monty Don from the BBC gardening shows, but with the power to control all of Britain by his will. Yes! My goodness, so yeah with as little as little space as they have for this story They take up big chunks with these songs and dream sequences and things. Ian: And having resisted the temptation, Sam rescues Frodo and they start to head towards Mount Doom. And, and we cut over to Minas Tirith, where we meet Pippin, and we meet Gandalf. Matthew: You mentioned Minas Tirith. Their pronunciations do wig me out a little bit, because they refer to it as minus tereth, which I think I did when I started reading these in sixth grade. But, yeah. Ian: That implies a positive tereth somewhere else. That's the two poles of this, of the Middle Earth battery. Matthew: If you're trying to jumpstart Middle Earth, make sure you connect them in the appropriate sequence, or things might blow up. Yes. Ian: Oh, goodness. Matthew: But yeah, They then go over to Minas Tirith, and we see Gandalf, and we see this sequence of Denethor going crazy, with no context. Ian: No context, Matthew: yeah, I've looked in the crystal ball and I've seen the future and it's terrible. So I want to die. And yeah, they don't actually show it on screen, but they practically do for a kid's cartoon. Yeah. Ordering his own execution. Ian: Yeah, we kind of see him just doom scrolling online there for a moment. But Gandalf has such a weird portrayal in this film. Gandalf is the most pessimistic man in Middle Earth. Matthew: He is. My hope has failed, Merry and he's talking to the hobbits and saying how it's hopeless and I don't know what to do, but it's he's still Gandalf the gray He still looks exactly as he did in The Hobbit, and because we didn't have the end of the Fellowship of the Ring, we didn't have the Fellowship of the Ring or the Two Towers, so we don't have him returning as Gandalf the White. He is just a real bummer. Ian: I didn't realize how much that, that Balrog fight did to help Gandalf's mental health. Yeah. It's like, dude needs to fight a giant fire beast and chill out. Cuz yeah, he still gives everything the same level of like, declaration and authority, but it's all in the, oh, well. Yeah, he's got a very like, well, torch this whole thing. We'll try again next week. Matthew: I'm the smartest, most powerful person here, and I say we are in deep trouble. There's no hope. Ian: There's no hope. I don't understand, Pippin. Why are we doing this? Well, let's go over there and try. But why? Having your existential crisis, but still getting stuff done. Yeah. That's the thing. It's weird that none of these little changes actually shift the plot. But they feel way more impactful than they should. Matthew: And they go back and forth then for much of the movie between the hobbits in Mordor. We're trying to get through the mountains into Mordor and save Frodo and all of this and how horrible things are going back in Gondor and the battle of the Pelennor Fields going very badly. Ian: Oh, yes. Matthew: Lots of big battle scenes. Ian: Lots of big battle scenes. We do, in Pelennor Fields, during this giant fight, get to see the Ringwraiths and the Witch King of Agmar. Matthew: Yes, who looks a lot like Skeletor, or sounds a lot like Skeletor as well. He Ian: sounds like some weird cross between Skeletor and Starscream. He's got this, vocoder effect on his voice, and he's doing this high pitched Nas nasally. Kind of rasp where it's like I, one should know who I'm Matthew: until we meet again, Galdalf exactly. . And he the witch king who they never identifies the witch king. He's riding a lizard like thing. Everybody else is writing black pegasi. All the other Nazgul, I mean. Ian: My little Nazgul, my little Nazgul. I can feel sometimes that they're like using the same rotoscoping of a horse for multiple riders sometimes because the horses will, will do the same thing. And that's why flying mounts are also horses and such. There is an element of material reuse that feels tabletop, I've only got so many miniatures, instead of actually negative to the animation, because the animation is, it's Rankin Bass non stop motion, it's It's a little rough, it's got a weird line weight to it, but it is engaging and active, I'll say. Matthew: Yeah, it does, you know, some of, some of the, the landscapes and things are beautiful. Like you say, it's this interesting line work and shading, it kind of, in some ways, evokes some of Tolkien's own illustrations. It also reminds me of some of the illustrations and versions of this book I read when I was a kid, and yet, there's something a little more vibrant about it, because even, even when it's static, it's painted and drawn for animation. And they do cheap out a lot of ways, they, they'll do a big landscape and then they'll just pan over it to suggest action when there's something big happening. Ian: Cause Rankin Bass was the production company, but they also outsourced a lot of their animation, and apparently worked with Topcraft. Yeah. And that's the group that's known for making things like Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaa Valley of the Wind. Yep. And it's got that little bit of an you know, that 80s anime line work. Right. Matthew: Especially the way they portray nature and mountains in those landscapes. You can see, you'd put some frames side by side and see, Oh yeah, these are the same, this is the same approach to animation. Ian: This is, this feels like an animation whose still frames are excellent. And it's the point, it's the, it's the illusion of movement between spot A and spot B that is, Odd. Right. Not wrong, but odd. Matthew: And the Rankin Bass approach to storytelling, that works of course for all the Christmas things we watched, but also it works pretty well for The Hobbit, which is a kid's book. That, that approach to storytelling does not work as well for the climax of The Lord of the Rings. Ian: No, it does an excellent job for all of the musical scenes, because it is very music video y. Matthew: Yes, yeah, the musical numbers are just these little chunks taken out of time, presented for our entertainment, which is true of most musicals, it's just weird making this a musical. Ian: It says something that this aired on TV in 1980, and MTV officially launched in August of 81. Oh, interesting. And there's something culturally about, like, the things that MTV and music videos would have stylistically. And the way this animates, the idea of just how you put film to music and vice versa, you could see that being something people were working on in the background, I feel. Matthew: So this brings the Lord of the Rings out of the hippie and post hippie era of the 60s and 70s when it grew in popularity, and ushers it into what would be the MTV era. Exactly. Interesting. Ian: That's very much what this is culturally, Matthew: I find. Huh. Cool. Ian: And I mean, we could, we could definitely recap more of the plot of Return of the King because this isn't quite the plot of the Return of the King. Right, Matthew: We have things going badly over in Minas Tirith. We have Gandalf continuing to be very depressed and not having a lot of hope. And we get a few bits of of foreshadowing, not foreshadowing, just prediction about the biggest danger is if the Black Fleet shows up, and little does Gondor know that these horrible forces from the south are on their way. And of course eventually the Black Fleet does show up, but it turns out that Aragorn captured it and turned it to his own. They don't mention the paths of the dead, or the dead kings, or the ancient oath, or any of that. They leave all of that out. It's just Aragorn was just biding his time. It's like he pops up once in a while. Oh, my turn yet? No, the ring's still around? Okay, never mind. I'll check back later. Ian: You ever, you ever watched another person's playthrough of like, of Skyrim or something and realized they did different quests? But they're at the endgame, where it's like, oh, they didn't do the Balrog fight quest, so they only have a grey Gandalf instead of a white Gandalf, and they've decided to go for the Rally the Fleet instead of the Raise the Dead army options. It's like, okay, yeah, same cutscene, but there's some changes based on what you chose. Matthew: And I know that they have to cut things out of an adaptation like this, they can't mention everything, they can't give us all these details, but some of the decisions that they made are strange, like, there's no mention of, there's barely any mention or, we don't, we don't never see an elf, do we? Ian: We see the ones that are at Rivendell, but never during the rest of it, Matthew: but I don't think they mentioned, do they mention Gimli and Legolas? No. I don't remember his name. Frodo didn't know his name. No. And they don't mention, they don't mention Galadriel, the file of Galadriel that has the magic light in it. It's just something that Frodo happened to have in his pocket and Sam figures out. Don't mention Boromir and Faramir. Which gives a little more context to Denethor's collapse, but they decide, they go into this exquisite detail about the name and provenance of the battering ram, Grond, that the orcs and the forces of Sauron bring to the gates of Minas Tirith. Ian: Yeah, there's also a lot more Mordor representation. Yes. The battering ram gets its name and title. The orcs get little skits back and forth while they're waiting in the barracks. And they get an entire song during a marching scene when we see them. Oh, yes we do. Yes we do. Singing Orcs: Where there's a whip, there's a way. Where there's a whip, there's a way. We don't wanna go to war today, But the Lord of the Lash says, Nay, nay, nay, We're gonna march all day, All day, all day. Matthew: We've got funky orcs. Ian: We've got funk orcs! I'm really confused, because it's like, we've, yeah, we've kind of gotten the elves have you know, acoustic guitar, and there's a little bit of, like, rock opera to the Legion of the Men, and then there's the funk orcs. Matthew: Yes! They got this nasty bass line, and then there's this big male military chorus. That sounds great. Ian: And I'm so confused because I'm used to, like, the Orcs, loyal to the Dark Lord Sauron, ready to take over the entirety of Middle Earth. We don't wanna go to war today. They have, these orcs have the biggest, I've been assigned a shift on Black Friday kind of energy. And we, they, they are absolutely Black Friday, Mordor style. Exactly, it's like, they do not want to clock in. They want to take their 15 minute break as soon as they can. I feel these guys. Matthew: We do. And we get a little bit of that in the book, the return of the king and the orcs fighting among themselves and not being happy about their orders. But not like quite like this. They're not as organized or melodious. Ian: Yes. And there's an entire, very Scooby Doo esque scene at the crossroads, where they get into a fight with a group of men about who goes first to cross the road. Matthew: Yes, that was an interesting depiction of that. Ian: Yeah. Weirdly enough though, the fact that the orcs are so much more goblin y, Is important narratively, because it allows Sam and Frodo to like, grab extra helmets and hide amongst them. Matthew: Yeah, again, right from the book, they're, they're pulling a lot of this. Ian: When they do that, they are very true to it. Yes. They just shop weirdly. Matthew: Yeah, they cared about what they were adapting. They just found themselves in a weird position as far as how they adapted it. Ian: Exactly. I do appreciate how many times they reuse the same animation of Sam and Frodo falling down the hills of Mt. Doom. Because we get that multiple times throughout the middle of this film. It'll be like, Ah, they're waking their way up, and then it's two hobbits rolling like Katamari down the side of the mountain again. Matthew: Let us reuse those cells. Ian: Let us reuse those cells. There's like, I kept expecting to hear like a bowling crash. Matthew: That's something else you mentioned that there were some interesting and very Rankin Bass choices about sound design here. The ring makes a little magical twittering sound whenever its power is being used. Whenever some yes, and people can can you can essentially tap into the power of the ring just by grabbing it even without putting it On although if they put it on it makes them invisible, but I want to I want a new edit of the Peter Jackson But every time we see the ring on screen, it's making that cartoon magical twittering sound that would be awesome Just Ian: that little like "wooown" yes It's Matthew: the sparkly noise from Rankin Bass Ian: Exactly. All of this though, we do encounter again, the Rankin Bass Golem. Matthew: Yes, the Sleestak Golem. Ian: The Sleestak Golem. Absolutely. Very lizard like. He is pure Slea Stag. He is so lizard y. He's got, he's almost got like a frill to the side. I keep expecting him to get mad and for his, for his neck to like extend like the, like the dinosaur that spits acid in Jurassic Park. Just, tss. Matthew: He is, he's almost there. Ian: He's almost there. Matthew: And he wrestles with Frodo, and Sam defeats him, but has too much mercy to kill him. Ian: Okay, I'm gonna also give another weird reference. If you haven't seen the look of it, like, look up what the Rankin Bass golem looks like. Cause, or I'm, we're calling him Sleestek. He's also just the little bit weirdest. Sanrio. With his, with his like, extremely curvy, he's got the really big anime eyes. There's something a little bit like, I could see a phone charm of this version of him. Matthew: Yes, you're right. It's not that far off. Yeah. And also with his, his, his cranial proportions, he is ready made for a pop figure. Ian: Mm hmm. It's like, you add a bow to the, the corner of his head and it's, you know, Hello Gollum over there. Okay, then. But, we have a little fight and they reject Gollum, and in a brilliant bit of foreshadowing, I do love Frodo being like, if I see you again, you should just jump into the fires of Mount doom yourself. Like, oof! Matthew: Kind of on the nose. Ian: Called that shot. Frodo takes one look, it's like Gollum in the corner pocket. Ugh. But, we keep cutting back, so it's, Sam and Frodo make it a little bit further, and , the legions of men kind of work their way across the fields in the fight, and finally are getting towards the Black Gates. From Mordor. Matthew: And also they get some benefit because Theoden and the riders of Rohan show up. Yes. Because Gandalf sent word with one of the hobbits to bring them and, we didn't really know much about them earlier, but they're another friendly force who come in and help turn the tide of the battle. Yeah. And that's where they, they do cut back in time for us to, to meet King Theoden, see them fight a little bit and then lose King Theoden. Because they do show the end of King Theoden, and because some horrible black magical force causes his horse to throw him. Ian: This is also a good chance to like, say, the voiced acting. Yes, yes. Is so interesting. Matthew: It is! Playing Frodo is Orson Bean, who played Bilbo in the Rankin Bass The Hobbit. And he's playing both the aged Bilbo in the bookend, but also he plays Frodo throughout. And did you recognize the voice of Sam? Ian: I think I did. Matthew: That was Roddy McDowall, who we heard as Cornelius in Planet of the Apes. Ian: Oh yeah! Matthew: Oh my goodness. There's so many other Roddy McDowall movies we should watch. Ian: Oh, he's yeah, he's done a lot of stuff. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I'm scrolling through his IMDB right now and just Matthew: we also saw him a year or so ago in the Poseidon adventure. Ian: Oh, yeah, he was in Poseidon adventure. And I was saying before how certain of the characters Mordor sounded like Transformers and such. Yeah. Plenty of the voice actors are well known for things. They were in Transformers and G. I. Joe and Scooby Doo and stuff like that. Oh, they are. They are voice actors from those pieces. Don Misik was in Transformers the movie and the Jetsons and a lot of those shows. So he's done a lot of, these are voices that you might recognize from those classic cartoons and such if you watch it because There's, there's a lot of great talent in this. It's just not a piece of media a lot of people would have seen, and it's not a piece of media with a lot of connected context, despite being an interpretation of such a massive media property. Matthew: And you mentioned Scooby Doo, Mary is voiced by Casey Kasem, who did the voice of Shaggy for years and years and years. Which you can kinda hear a little. Oh, absolutely. He also did the voice of Robin in a lot of the Batman cartoons back in that era. Such a distinctive voice, but it worked for these characters. At least we get used to it as these characters. It's weird hearing him as a hobbit, though. Ian: Yeah, odd to hear that. Matthew: But yeah, it's interesting to see how this was either right in the middle or early on in the careers of some of these voice actors who did so much through the 80s. Ian: , there's a lot of back and forth, and we're kind of hitting on the musical sections. I want to mention that the, the Mount Doom, when they get to the gates song, is so odd. I'm trying to remember what that song was like. It's very much like a Matthew: Oh, the, the, the The cracks Ian: of doom, right? The cracks of doom, you're at the gates, go back, go back. , and some of the oddities we've been describing do come to a head there, when this giant musical number tells everyone to turn around. And Gandalf's just like You know what? Sounds good! And then they don't. They stay there. Matthew: Yes, that's right, because after they essentially successfully defend Minas Tirith, they make the decision to march to the Gates of Mordor, not knowing what's up with Frodo and Sam, and Frodo and Sam are making their way to Mount Doom. And that's, that's an interesting use of the music, because that kind of bridges The action we see in these two different places with this musical theme carrying over. That's where, you know, Rankin Bass know what they're doing when it comes to music and storytelling. Mm hmm. Oh, and we talked about the fall of, of Theoden. We do see Eowyn, his niece. We never me She was never mentioned before. But they did mention the prophecy that the Witch King, the leader of the Nazgul, could not be slain by any man born. And she just shows up, takes off her helmet, shows her long blonde hair and says, I am no man. And everybody else says, A woman? And then she, with, with the Hobbit's help, she Cuts off the Witch King's lack of head But that's like the only a little bit of Eowyn we get who may be out the who may be the only female Character we get in the entire thing Ian: I think that's true. Matthew: I may be misgendering some of the orc army. We didn't meet all that in person. That's what I'm Ian: wondering. It's like that's, I think, yeah. I think that is. Matthew: Yes. Even Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings Return of the King was a little better about it than that. Ian: Yeah. My goodness. Yep. Matthew: But at least they kept her in. They, we didn't get Denethor's sons, but we do get Eowyn. Ian: But it's very, very, once again, without, very, very faithful with the declaration and the reveal, but very context free. They do not establish any of that beforehand. Matthew: Yes. Ian: And it makes the whole thing feel odd. Matthew: And the confrontation that we get at the gates of Mordor with Gandalf and Faramir, excuse me, Gandalf, see I'm trying to insert Faramir here, with Gandalf and Aragorn at the head of their army. The gate of Mordor is tiny, given what it does. It's like, I don't know, smaller than the entrance to a shopping mall. Ian: Yeah, it's very much like the attach, like coming through the attached target to the mall. Matthew: There's a joke to be made here about a ring doorbell, I'm sure. And and there's this little confrontation with the mouth of Sauron who shows up looking very much like a Rankin Bass or Hanna Barbera bad guy. Ian: Yeah and, and I do love how it's like, like, well, you know, Frodo and Sam are probably dead. We should march on the gates and see what we can do. We'll probably lose, says Gandalf. Matthew: Yep. Ian: And then at the gates, they're standing there. And we cut over to Sam and Frodo having made it to Mount Doom. Matthew: Yes. Ian: And we get Frodo standing at the crack of Mount Doom, and finally succumbing to some extent to the Ring's suggestion, and putting it on, and going maniacal. As the leader of hobbits, I don't think, we don't get a clear picture of what Frodo's like ring visions are, the same way we do Sam's if I remember. Matthew: Right, yeah, we don't get a sense of how Frodo imagines himself with all this power. And we never see any indication of the, the shadow realm in which the ring puts you. Ian: Yeah, that's where this is a very Mordor and Sam of POV version. Matthew: Right, yeah, we're just seeing what Sam sees or doesn't see when Frodo puts the ring on. Ian: But this is where sam is all worried and kind of notices the glint of the ring. I think Matthew: yeah, that's like the ring remains visible But the wearer does not Ian: that's kind of cool Matthew: I do kind of like that that the ring is too powerful to disappear. It has no reason to disappear. It makes you disappear Mm hmm. You do not make me disappear Ian: you It, yeah, it's like the ring, the ring takes you over and you cease to be because you're just the vessel for the ring. Matthew: Oh yeah, there's, there is no Frodo, there is only ring. Yeah. Mm hmm. I like that. Ian: It's very nicely literal like that. But we get the whole fight. Between invisible Frodo and Gollum being kind of color commentated by Sam. Matthew: Yes. Yes. Ian: And then it transitions during that fight into a reprise of why does he have nine fingers? Matthew: Yes. Ian: Which is such what it really feels like it's just dunking on Frodo the entire time. Matthew: And it made me think this was a long song just to answer that one question. You could have said when they, he tried to destroy the ring and this thing bit his finger off and we would have been done and having cake already. Ian: Yeah, it's like, but no, you got to do the whole thing. Matthew: I do have to acknowledge some of the animation in that scene at Mount Doom. They do put a little extra into the animation. There's some great heat wave effects and things like that. It really more than Most of the movie. It gives you that sense of environment that this is dangerous. This is claustrophobic and sulfurous and hot. It gives you a sense of what Sam, our point of view character, is going through just being there. Ian: And we get to watch Gollum like happy dance emote himself off the edge of the cliff. He does this little happy dance and we just see him slide off the side. Matthew: I almost expect it to be one of these little oops moments from a cartoon where his entire body falls into the pit his head stays in place for a moment. So we can see his expression before it follows Ian: Just watch golem. Wile E. Coyote, he gets over the entire edge and then finally stops dancing, looks down, looks up and then fall. Matthew: Yes. It's almost that Ian: it's almost that I do like that. The moment that that happens. The moment that Gollum bites off the finger, Frodo is snapped out of this and is terrified of what he's done. And we get a weirdly detailed close up drawing of Frodo's hand with a bitten off finger. Matthew: It's kind of traumatic for your typical Rankin Bass audience. Ian: Yeah, it's like, Hey kids! Matthew: That's why he has nine fingers. Ian: Nine fingers. Matthew: Now we know. Yeah. The more you know, Ian: And Gollum falls in the ring's destroyed, and we cut back to the exact same spot at the gates of Mount Doom and they start crumbling. Matthew: And Gandalf is still a bummer. He doesn't stop to think, oh, if Mordor is collapsing, that must mean that Frodo and Sam succeeded. Hooray! Instead, he's like, oh man, now there's an earthquake. Earthquakes don't care who you are, they're gonna kill all of us. Oh my. Man, you're so much more fun with the white coat. Ian: So much more fun with the white coat. The funny thing is that once he realizes, wait, we're not being affected. , and Mordor starts singing like, Oh, we're all doomed. We've lost. And then suddenly Gandalf's like, Ah, good. Sam and Frodo succeeded. I knew they would. It's like, no you didn't. Matthew: After lots and lots of eagles show up to carry the entire army to safety. Or, I don't know, Gandalf and Aragorn and as much of the army as they can carry. I presume that. They saved the entire army and also we get a long, long sequence of Sam and Frodo running away from lava, like you were saying before, reusing a lot of those running animations, and then eventually eagles come and pick them up as well. Ian: Your eagle is arriving in five minutes. Please make sure you've got your app ready. Matthew: I kind of wanted a scene back at Minas Tirith after this with Gandalf saying, See, I told you it was all going to be okay. And everybody else shooting him a look. Ian: Everyone else should shoot him a look then. Cause he's, he is kind of like, Oh yeah, happy. It all worked out afterwards. Watch some of that in the, the cleanup afterwards. Yep. It just feels so wrong with how pessimistic he's been the entire, the entire rest of the pilot. Every step of the way. Yep. Every step of the way. And we finish the song, this is apparently been. The bard finishes, and we get this ending with , Bilbo and Gandalf and Elrond and Frodo in , Rivendell. Matthew: Right. We do see Aragorn reclaim Minas Tirith, and we get this repetitive but kind of cool song about the end of the ring, the return of the king. It's kind of like, oh yeah, don't forget, this is why it's called this. Ian: Oh, yeah, the king's back. Matthew: But we do very, as quickly as possible, then we get back to Rivendell, like you say, on the other bookend. Ian: And, they, they make a lot of point, more doing a follow up to the end of their The Hobbit, to some extent. Matthew: Hmm. Ian: About how much Bilbo's gone through. And that he's old and forgetful, and that he's going to head off with Elrond and Gandalf into the Grey Havens. Matthew: I do really appreciate the fact that Elrond still has the really cool, sparkly magic halo that we saw in The Hobbit. Ian: Oh yeah, you wanna see the one guy in the MMO who, who paid real money for like premium gear? It's, it's him sitting there during the cutscene and it's just constantly twinkling around his head. Yes. Elrond doesn't show up much, he doesn't have a lot there. Interesting to note of his his voice actor is also the voice actor who did the orcs and the Uruk hai. Ian: Hahaha. So it's very different feeling very different style Matthew: and Paul Frees. He was a radio announcer and voiceover guy and did some acting work and a very distinctive when it's just Paul Frees very distinctive voice, but he's got so much range. It's interesting to see him still doing this stuff in in 1980. Ian: Well, there's one character that he does an amazing job for that we know of. Yeah, which is he's the voice of burger Meister Meister burger. Matthew: That's right. That's right. Ian: So much talent in there, but his range is so wide doing those characters. Matthew: Yep, and we hear him as like the radio announcer in the George Powell's War of the Worlds and so many things. Ian: Exactly. But frodo is gonna head off with them to the Gray Havens and gives the copy of Bilbo's book plus the information about their own journeys to Sam. Yeah. And kind of makes Sam the, the leader of Hobbits, the, the, the record keeper of all. Yeah. He gets Matthew: to finish the book, which is again, I like that there, they're staying true to it there. But it's also rushed at the end that we've, of course, just like in the Peter Jackson movies, we don't get the scouring of the Shire. Because in this we have never any mention of Saruman. He's just not there. Yeah. So he wasn't there to try to take over the Shire. It's just, now that we're done and we've had the birthday party, we're getting on a boat going west. Ian: Well, the Age of Magic is done, it's time for the Age of Men. Is there Hobbits in the Age of Men? Well, yeah, but you're gonna get more like men. Oh, there's gonna be people who hear about your stories and wonder, Am I Hobbit? Yes. Matthew: And Gandalf just barrels the camera and says, Is there? Do I have any Hobbit blood? Like, Is there? That's a little thing for the kids to think about. Oh, am I part Hobbit, Dad? Ian: That gave me very very odd In Search Of... Flashbacks Matthew: In search Of Hobbit Heritage Ian: Feels like an episode they would have done if they could Matthew: yes, I think so Ian: It's got that same kind of feel and in its its formatting at the very end. Yeah And it ends with them sailing off to the gray havens Matthew: and there is something weirdly satisfying. There is something weirdly satisfying about that ending given how strange the journey was and how chopped up it seemed. Ian: Yeah. This is like you get catharsis. Even though we, for all intents and purposes, we are in the final third of a thing. We did not get the first two thirds of . It feels complete. Matthew: Yes. And I think we might be heading towards our final questions now. Ian: I think so. Matthew: But before we get there, if you're enjoying the Inter Millennium Media Project and want to wanna support the show or you want more of the show or anything else about the show or the the project, go to imm project.com and that's where you'll find all of our back episodes. You'll also find ways. To support the show at our merchandise shop where we've got fun designs and through patreon where you will get even more Bonus audio content and at immproject. com You will also find ways to contact us on our discord on our Email address and our contact page. You can even send us actual physical mail by the U. S. Postal Service. It's the mail. I'll get used to it. And Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And Ian: Ian, where can people find you? I can be found as ItemCrafting most places, be that on Blue Sky Social or as ItemCraftingLive on Twitch. Come join me every Thursday for some crafting, some video games, and some fun chats. Matthew: You'll find me@bymatthewporter.com or you'll find links to whatever I'm doing online. You'll find me as by Matthew Porter on YouTube where I do some travel vlogging, but also review movies and movie theater experiences, especially the Alamo Drafthouse. And you'll find me on Mastodon as by Matthew Porter, ma. Mastodon Social, and you'll find me as by Matthew Porter on Blue Sky. So, final questions, it is a movie, TV movie, but it is a movie, so screen or no screen? Ian: Oh, that is so hard with this one. I sat through the entire film going, What is this? It's so weird. It's It's engaging, but it's all, it's all off. Something's a kilter. Something's wrong. And I left, and then the next day, I found myself humming Da da da dum. Da da da dum. Da da And I'm like, oh no, it's catchy. Matthew: That is way too catchy. It is way too catchy. I've been trying not to sing it to myself because I do not want to subject Mrs. Darling Wife to having it stuck in her head again. Ian: Exactly. So I kind of think I'm going to have to say screen, but it's a screen with like a heads up warning. This is a weird trip. This is 98 minutes of pure bewilderment. Yes. It's a fun 98 minutes. It's. It's the same kind of screen that is a go ride this a rollercoaster. Yes, Matthew: I say screen, but screen with the right attitude and the right expectations. There are some things that we watch, and you've got the interesting suggestion that this is something to put on in the background at a party. Mm hmm. This is something for which I think you should organize a watch party, if you're gonna watch this movie. Organize a party, have food and drink and a bunch of friends over to sit and watch this movie with not too many expectations, just let it happen. And you will have fun because it is so strange and such an artifact of its time. Ian: Do you have a tabletop roleplaying group? Make a watch party of this. You'll see a version of the finale of the Lord of the Rings that is simultaneously Absolutely serious about its story, and weird and silly in the right ways , depending on how you look at it. Individual moments seem like someone's doing something ridiculous for the fun of it. And yet it all still fits the narrative of the grand epic you know, and it doesn't have to fill in every gap. I think it's good for that. Matthew: It is, it's an interesting adventure in tone for high fantasy stories. Ian: Mm hmm. Matthew: So yeah, I say under those kinds of circumstances, screen, absolutely. Ian: Oh, yes. Matthew: And our, our next question is a little bit odd, given the provenance of this, and when it was made, and everything else, is, revive, reboot, or rest in peace? Now, reboot, I guess we've got, it's another adaptation of the Lord of the Rings, and we've got the 78 hour adaptation by Peter Jackson. Ian: I don't know what to think about, , the idea of, , how else would you do this? Are we asking for Rankin Bass to go back and give us the Lord of the Rings? Or, or do we want him to just keep going backwards and do, like, what's the, what's the Rankin Bass two towers? Matthew: Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I, it would be on the one hand, if you want to go forward, I, I like to think about the Rankin Bass, the Silmarillion. Yeah, that could actually be maybe the best way of adapting the Silmarillion would be a Rankin Bass version. Hey, it starts all about music. Let's get the the Rankin Bass version of the song of Eru Ilúvatar. Ian: That would work. I would really love to see a I don't know where this lands. It's not quite Revival. It's not quite rest in peace. I want to, I wish Rankin Bass had tried their hand at different epic fantasy stories. I wish they were around to do this to other tales. Matthew: The Rankin Bass Song of Ice and Fire. Ian: Yes! The Rankin Bass The Way of Kings. Oh my goodness, that could do wild stuff. Matthew: But yeah, I guess the other, you mentioned the other option would be Go back and fill in, they've done the Hobbit, they've done the Return of the King, let's see the Rankin Bass Fellowship of the Ring, and the Rankin Bass The Two Towers, and I would, I'd be down for that. I would be interested in that. It would be an interesting thing to see because some of the choices they made in Return of the King, they would have to somehow support and maintain if they went back. You can't suddenly start talking about Saruman if you had no mention of him whatsoever. Although I guess he kind of, you can have him become a problem in the Fellowship of the Ring and he's, he is no longer a problem by the end of the Two Towers, which is kind of the Peter Jackson approach. But it would be weird to not mention Boromir and Faramir in the Return of the King and yet show them in the others. It would be weird to, to not mention Gimli and Legolas in the Return of the King and yet have them in the others. So it would be a very strange adaptation of those first two books. But I think I want to see it. Ian: Yeah, or they could do the pieces they didn't do. I mean, give us the, the story that is uh, Legolas and Gimli, like a Rankin Bass buddy cop story that runs across them and shows what they were doing during this. Matthew: The Rankin Bass Lord of the Rings version of Hobbes and Shaw The Lord of the Rings presents Gimli and Legolas. Ian: Oh, yeah. Ian: Okay, I've got a horrible idea that just went through my head. Matthew: Oh, yeah. Ian: I would, I'm thinking like other stories that I would love the Rankin Bass treatment done to. And I thought, okay, what if we move away from fantasy and suddenly the , idea of the Rankin Bass Neuromancer went through my head and I would be game for that. Matthew: The music would be amazing. Ian: The music would be amazing. It's from the 80s. Yeah, it would have been possible. Oh, that would have been so good Matthew: Yes, that would be cool Ian: And the thing is like the rankin bass productions they are gone. They yeah, they are a defunct company sadly enough, but they were so influential There are plenty of other animation studios that take at least some piece of lineage from them They did a lot Animation wise overall. Yeah. And so when we're describing that Rankin Bass, I think we're discussing a style, not specifically a company. Yes, yeah, that is true. Yeah, it would be someone else picking up the torch and, and following the legacy of Rankin Bass to make something as close as they can to what they might have made. And I could imagine there's some of that weirdness that, that disconnect we were describing, are things that newer animation has polished better with newer techniques and, and such. Rankin Bass was figuring some stuff out as they went because no one had tried some of these things in the same way. Ian: They were making things in new ways and experimenting, and now there's new experiments that are trying out other stuff. I just don't want to see that. That spirit of, let's go for it, die away. Matthew: I agree. I agree. Ian: That's what we're discussing. Matthew: They took a big swing. And you know, they may not have hit a grand slam, but they, hit a solid double with this, I think. Oh, yes. And, and thinking, by the way, in terms of who produced this and how it was received, which I think was, was, There was a lot of confusion about this production in the years that followed because after Rankin Bass the, their production company was defunct, Warner Brothers got the rights to this cartoon and they had the rights to Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings, which adapted the first half of the three books and they marketed them together sometimes as a boxed set. So a lot of people were Came to this or, or later on came to this thinking it was a sequel, the completion of the Ralph Bakshi version. And I, I guess it kind of almost sort of works in a way if you just want to get the story and you watch both of these, but they are so weirdly different in style. It would be strange watching one and then expecting the other to follow it. Ian: We don't have anyone's weird animated version of the two towers because right now we've got the Hobbit By Rankin Bass followed by a Ralph Bakshi. Yeah, then there's a gap and then there's the return to the king So it's like Matthew: and Ralph Bakshi's movie went into like the first part of the two towers It wasn't yeah as clear a break as say Peter Jackson did but still there's a big chunk that we don't get. Ian: Mm hmm Matthew: but it's it's strange to put these together where you've got the Rankin hits bookends like the minstrel, I guess. We've got Rankin Bass on both ends, and we've got this thing that Ralph Bakshi made stuck in the middle. Ian: It kinda works! and, I mean, we also have to acknowledge these things kept the Lord of the Rings in the public consciousness. Matthew: Yes. Ian: And they helped keep it going. So the fact that we know the story as well as we do now, thanks to the bigger and more grand Peter Jackson versions, I mean, there was just a Lord of the Rings animated movie that came out. That's right. Yeah. That is about. Further pieces of the story. Things like that have history back to the fact that people were animating and making versions of sections of the story all throughout before. And so that spirit is still alive in that sense. Matthew: And it says a great deal about the Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings was already super popular. As popular as any fantasy or science fiction was by the end of the 70s. But it was within certain subcultures, and things like this, they expand that even a little bit. There are some people who grabbed The Lord of the Rings and read it because they saw Rankin Bass as the Hobbit, or they saw Ralph Bakshi's movie, or they saw this Return of the King. And you're right, that, that brings it into new eras, it brings it to new people, and it keeps it going. Ian: Mhmm. It's, a continuous line, it's a history. I mean, I guess that's what Sam is writing in the book there. That's the, that's the legacy that continues on that he gets to write down. Matthew: So, yeah, it's, my memories of this were not very complete, but how it was an interesting adventure here. Ian: How did you first see this? Matthew: Oh, I, I first saw it when it aired 'cause I was already such a Lord of the Rings fan that everything I could get about it, I, I grabbed onto, so I saw this, I saw the, the Hobbit when it aired. I saw the Ralph Bakshi movie in theaters. I saw this, I, the only other time I had seen it when it was, was when it premiered on TV in, in 1980. Ian: Ah. Yeah, apparently it got its VHS copies and such, but Matthew: well this was interesting. I'm not sure if we're gonna have more Lord of the Rings to talk about I have a feeling we will if not old. I don't know about older stuff, but certainly any newer stuff comes along We will find a time to talk about it on the patreon feed Ian: absolutely, Matthew: I think in the meantime I think that's going to be it for this episode of the IMMP. We will be back in a couple of weeks with more tales of media from the 20th century. Ian: And in the meantime, go find something new to watch.