[00:00:00] Clip: Middle school doesn't have a witness protection program. All I wanted to do was make the gym pretty for the dance. Have a nice outfit and maybe get asked out by someone.

You need to lower your expectations,

We're losing audience! We need a guest!.

[00:00:31] Matthew: Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Inter Millennium Media Project. My name is Matthew Porter. 

[00:00:37] Ian: I'm Ian Porter. 

[00:00:39] Jennifer: And I'm Jennifer Ogden Porter, Ian's wife. Yay. 

[00:00:43] Matthew: And he's my son. And I'm his dad, and she's my daughter-in-law. And we have another millennial strikes back episode, but it's not the usual millennial.

[00:00:52] Ian: I didn't do it. This time, 

[00:00:54] Matthew: Jen has taken over to introduce both Ian and me. To something neither of us had ever watched before. 

[00:01:01] Ian: Yeah. I 

[00:01:03] Jennifer: Crazy. 

[00:01:04] Ian: Yeah. Who would've guessed that? I might might be aware that this show exists, but culturally completely told that it's not to be touched because it's 

[00:01:15] Jennifer: Lizzie McGuire, the um, the Disney show that I grew up with and taught me how to be a teenager.

[00:01:24] Matthew: I knew of the existence of this show just from some kind of cultural osmosis. 

[00:01:29] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:01:29] Matthew: Uh, never having been a teenage girl, never having raised a teenage girl. I had never seen a moment Yeah. Of this show. I think I knew it existed because of movie posters for the movie follow up. Mm-hmm. To the TV show.

That's as much as I knew. 

[00:01:47] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:01:48] Ian: It was this weird thing of like. The, the image of the actress is way less common in my head than the image of the caricature of her on the merchandise that classmates would bring to school during the time period of this, because it was influencing a lot of my, my peers in class in that sense.

All the girls in class all happy with it. All the boys we're like, I don't know what this is, but it's there. And so it's in the background in that sense as this distinctly different aisle of the Toys R Us. 

[00:02:28] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:02:29] Matthew: So you were aware of it at least generationally 

[00:02:31] Ian: Yes. 

[00:02:31] Matthew: Is something you were familiar with. It it existing and it was for kids who were not you.

[00:02:36] Ian: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's such a distinction because being able to look at it now and being able to hear all about how important and influential it was. I can put that into a context 

[00:02:50] Jennifer: mm-hmm. 

[00:02:50] Ian: Of time period. And yet it's still got this layer of separation and triangulation to arrive there. 

[00:02:58] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:02:59] Matthew: And Jen, for you, you've talked about how this was central to your growing up.

[00:03:03] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:03] Jennifer: Oh my God, yes. Like there are so many stories of learning from Lizzie and one that that has to get onto the podcast is I remember sitting at the kitchen counter and Lizzie was just always on in my house. She was the role model. I was the biggest Hillary Duff fan. I bought all of her CDs, everything.

I was sitting at the countertop and my dad was with me. And I was so distraught. Something in my life was like, I cannot solve this. And I looked up to Lizzie and I was like, how come Lizzie always figures it out? And my dad just turned to me and was like, Lizzie has 30 minutes. You have a lifetime. Of course it's gonna take you longer.

And that moment hit me so hard that I was like, oh my God, that's why like she has to figure it out in 30 minutes and I don't, I have more time. And it made me feel better that it took me longer than a day. Right? Because even though it was 30 minutes of tv, it's generally like the plot takes place over a day or a week and I have more time, therefore it takes me longer to figure out my problems.

And shocking. I know. But as a tween and a teen like burgeoning on high school, 'cause I watched this in middle school, like right as she was in seventh and eighth grade, I was going through seventh and eighth grade. And so to have my dad like comfort me in that way and to give me that knowledge that I hadn't had before because I, I was going through life a lot like Lizzie, an artistic, kind, young woman, going through a lot of the changes that I was going through and dealing with a lot of the issues that I was dealing with.

And she got to figure them out so quickly and I was just like, why can't I do that? And my dad just said, the simple, she has to in 30 minutes and you've got all the time in the world to figure it out. 

[00:05:07] Matthew: That's great. And it flips the dangerous lesson that can be taken from that. Because anybody in the world at that age, we're always comparing ourselves to other people and healthy or not usually unhealthy.

Mm-hmm. That includes comparing ourselves to people on tv. 

[00:05:21] Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. 

[00:05:21] Matthew: And your dad taking that message of yes, you can learn from, from the stories. That's how we learn. 

[00:05:26] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:05:27] Matthew: But. Don't expect it to work the way it does with something that is written by a room full of writers and has only 22 minutes to finish the entire story.

That's, that's not the lesson to take. That's, that's so smart on your dad's part. 

[00:05:41] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:43] Ian: And that's huge. I'd also say because Lizzie McGuire from seeing just a few episodes for this podcast episode, it is extremely well structured for lessons without being hit you over the head with them. 

[00:05:56] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:57] Ian: A lot of other, TV shows for kids around this time and continuing onward into the, now there's that element of unreality, but it's usually used in the form of wish fulfillment.

There's something that makes this kid special enough to follow them or they're energetic in a certain way. Lizzie's got a lot of her world is that little bit of heightened in order to make this work. She's not. A completely popular kid or a completely nerdy kid or a completely in one clique or another.

Mm-hmm. Her friend group covers a wide base with her and her two main friends there. They all fit across the categories and the situation she was dealing with ranged everything from specific to the young girl audience, the tween audience there, to about school in general and learning about dealing with outside of school scenarios and situations and environments.

It's more generalized than a lot of these other shows seem to be and I can see that it being such a good lesson teacher having that balance of, it's going to be a good lesson, but only in 30 minutes. There's a lot more depth to each of these topics is gonna hit even harder with Lizzie than it might even other, some of these shows at the same time since.

Lizzie didn't shy away from telling those deeper. Yeah. Those deeper stories and those deeper lessons, it's well structured to do so. 

[00:07:32] Matthew: And having seen a few episodes of this show now for the podcast, thank you for the episode list by the way. Uh, Jen, um, I would say that it, it is, it is formulaic. Mm-hmm.

Without being repetitive. And I've said before, a formula is not a bad thing. You want a good cake. Find the formula for a good cake. Yeah. And it'll be consistent. The problem with TV shows or even movies and things, if they follow, if they apply the same formula to the same things over and over. 

[00:08:01] Ian: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:01] Clip: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:01] Matthew: It's formulaic in that every episode has to have the problem that Lizzie has. Yeah. Either a disagreement with a friend or a conflict with someone else in the school community. Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:12] Jennifer: Yep. 

[00:08:13] Matthew: It has to have her brother involved in some weird scheme of some kind, him and his friend Lanny. 

[00:08:20] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:21] Matthew: And it has to have some bit of tension between the parents as they discuss how best to help their kids through whatever this 

[00:08:30] Jennifer: is.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would say that 

[00:08:31] Matthew: they, they apply that formula to so many different things in so many different ways. 

[00:08:36] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:08:36] Matthew: To tell different stories and Yeah. To have different lessons and things like that. 

[00:08:40] Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would totally agree. And, uh, you know, it is, it is formulaic, but it is also easy to follow, especially for the target audience.

And I think, you're very right that they apply it to so many different things because it's not, and as you said, it's not just the school life. It's also like it sometimes they're barely in the school. Right. Sometimes it's a completely, um, out, out of school.

Like the first episode I listed, you know, between a rock and a bra place is almost entirely done in the home shopping malls, you know, things like that, 

[00:09:11] Ian: right? Mm-hmm. And that, in that range means , that formula doesn't become stale or dry because it's not always being applied to schoolwork. That same, it's, it's almost gonna sound really weird to describe it this way.

It's almost like the scientific method. It's a mindset you can apply to something. Yeah. This is a mindset about how to be a thoughtful person when dealing with conflict in your life. Regardless of source, including one of the episodes you showed was involving Lizzie dealing with the idea of altruism.

Mm-hmm. And charity and going so far the conflict there originated in herself. Yeah. She had to deal with a, with an issue of how she was dealing with herself, and it caused tension between her and her friends. That was intriguing and interesting to see because the idea of a character having to find about how they were making that mistake in, in their own mindset was very deep.

For show this time and age, 

[00:10:19] Jennifer: and honestly like that one in particular, that one had to be on the list because again, a conversation with my father relating not just to Lizzie, but to that episode, I was very fortunate to be born into a family that had. All of our needs met. If I wanted $20, all I had to do was ask my dad.

And $20 magically appeared. And I, I saw this. 'cause I also ha i I want to help. And so it was like, how do you find the balance? Because shouldn't we just give everything away? And I remember , when I was dealing with that issue in my own timeline, he brought up the Lizzie episode and we were talking together.

And so I was like, dad, how can I have this, you know, how can I have a new camera when there are people starving? Like, why should I have this? we should give it back. Like, I don't want it. And he was like, well, remember the Lizzie episode where you have to find the balance because if she doesn't have clothes or a mattress.

You know, she can't be her best self. 

[00:11:23] Clip: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:24] Jennifer: And there's a level of what we can provide for ourselves and then we give the rest away. We give the rest of those in need and it's okay to get things for yourself. Mm-hmm. And I, I mean, I have taken that through buying a town home. You know, a decade ago I thought of the Lizzie episode and I, again, I am not hyperbolizing here.

I listened to Lizzie of, it's like I am allowed to buy a town home. Even though there are people who are in need, it is still okay to take care of myself with the gift that my grandmother has given us. And that lesson. Has stayed with me through my thirties, like through my twenties, and about those big, big like adult purchases that started with a video camera.

And my dad looped it to Lizzie. And every time I think about do I deserve to have a home like this, so many people have to rent. So many people are in different positions. And I think about the animation of Lizzie, like carrying the earth on her back. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's okay. And pick one thing. I really love the ending.

The ending isn't to say, don't give anything away. The ending is pick one thing. Mm-hmm. And, and, and go after that and take care of yourself. and that's a lesson I I've taken 

[00:12:54] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:12:55] Jennifer: Through adulthood. 

[00:12:55] Matthew: And I think that one of the things that good stories for an audience at that age. Is to, to start giving them a toolkit.

[00:13:02] Jennifer: Yes. 

[00:13:03] Matthew: Because that's what people need at that age. They need to, a set of tools to deal with the world, to deal with the fact that their world is getting more complicated. They have more choices to make. And I think this did a pretty good job of that. And one of the, the themes of those tools seemed to me to be balance.

[00:13:19] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:20] Matthew: Whether it was balance in how much she was doing for herself versus the rest of the world. Balance in what she expected of her friends versus what she was doing for her friends 

[00:13:31] Ian: mm-hmm. 

[00:13:32] Matthew: Or her family, things like that. Mm-hmm. And I think that's, that's a very general lesson, but it can be a hard thing to remember when you're that age and the entire world seems completely out of balance.

Yeah. Every, every slight, every problem is the most enormous thing that has ever happened. 

[00:13:48] Jennifer: Yeah. 'cause it's never happened before, 

[00:13:50] Matthew: right? 

[00:13:50] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:51] Matthew: And everything I do is either above and beyond anything anyone has ever sacrificed or. It's not enough and it'll never be enough. 

[00:13:58] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:59] Matthew: It's so hard to find balance at that age.

It was interesting to see how often there were different ways and different approaches and different lessons, but a lot of it came down to figure out how to be a balanced person. Mm-hmm. And that's a, good basis for a story. 

[00:14:12] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:14:13] Ian: The, the form of self-care and the need for self-care to be your best self without forgetting the why's and the what you're doing seems like a much more modern version.

The, the way that Lizzie approaches that is something I hear more in more modern media than I feel like I did at that time. 

[00:14:34] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:35] Ian: I'll also say this show does a great job of fitting into the mindset of the age range it's targeting. I was very happy to notice, um, back in September, one of our episodes was Better, her Off Dead, and I mentioned that the director had a great, he savage, Steve Holland did a great job of keeping.

A tone of that unreality and that character's perspective of how intense things were was coming through in the film and the cinematography and everything else. I'm happily not surprised to see that he was one of the people who worked on this a alongside a lot of other great directors. 'cause they all were able to keep that same idea.

the visuals, the style, the writing is really good at emphasizing not the true scenario, but the way that it is perceived by a person of that age, by the audience in their life. What they're seeing on the screen is going to be of a similar intensity to the way the things in their life feel. Mm-hmm.

And that means that it becomes more relatable and it does. So even with the scenes where Lizzie isn't there. Even when it's not just for friends. The little brothers antics are of an a, are of an, an exaggeration that feels like the amount, they are frustrating and annoying to Lizzie. 

[00:15:58] Matthew: Yeah. 

[00:15:58] Ian: And yet they tie back into the message the way the parents are quirky and interacting.

is very human. The parents are not these perfect people and they're not these awful impediments. They are heightened, realistic people in that sense who have good lessons but don't always get it. And that balance is always there. The lens helps the message and it's always present. And they have great job with directing and writing that makes that sing.

I'd say, 

[00:16:31] Matthew: and that's something I think it does a good job with is that balance. It's not just, it's very realistic. You're watching a very realistic kid go through a very realistic day. That wouldn't be very interesting, 

especially to. Middle schoolers. 

[00:16:43] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:16:43] Matthew: It's just absurd enough. It's just exaggerated enough.

Yeah. And as you said, Ian, it's sort of, we're seeing things the way they'd be perceived by somebody who's in the middle of this at that age. 

[00:16:53] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:16:54] Matthew: And yet it's not completely ridiculous. One of the first notes I've got in watching, um, watching these is that, oh, the parents don't seem like they're much of a team.

'cause they're disagreeing so strongly. 

[00:17:07] Jennifer: Uhhuh. 

[00:17:08] Matthew: I'm so glad to have seen that now. That's just where that they started in that episode as they assessed what they needed to do for their kids. Mm-hmm. Overall, they might have differences of opinion, but they are, were a very good team. 

[00:17:22] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:22] Matthew: In terms of bringing those ideas to one another, arguing about what to do sometimes, but coming to something that they could do together for their kids.

So, just one example, I probably related to that more than being the parents. Uh, one example of how the people were real, even though they were presenting. Exaggerated situations for the sake of a fun story. 

[00:17:44] Jennifer: Yeah. And about the perception is, so the original working title of this is What's Stevie Thinking?

So the main character's name was gonna be Stevie. and this was before they brought Hillary Duff on, like this was in conceptual phases and the entire pitch was about that animated character 

We wanna see inside the mind of a middle school girl of a 14-year-old girl. And at the time it was called Stevie.

that was the entire idea was this lens was this heightened lens mm-hmm. Of a 14-year-old girl to such a degree that we could hear inside her mind. which is why that animated, Lizzie is on all the branding. Mm-hmm. So more so than Hillary Duff's face or anything like that. It, the branding is, was more that animated Lizzie, um, because that was the lens that was every, you know, what they were working towards.

[00:18:38] Matthew: Oh, that's interesting because it was interesting to have that at animated version of Lizzie. 

[00:18:44] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:45] Matthew: As she. She sort of commented to us as the audience, but it was also the thoughts that she was having. 

[00:18:52] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:53] Matthew: How she was reacting to things that could have been overused so easily. Mm-hmm. If they had gone with, oh, this is the central idea of the series.

[00:19:01] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:02] Matthew: It would've been gimmicky. I don't think it would've made it as big an impression. They used it sparingly, and I thought they used it very well most of the time. Yeah, 

[00:19:09] Jennifer: I agree. Yeah. I think there's some episodes where it's like a little overdone, but I think mostly they find a really sweet balance of, again, it was like, how do we show transparency into what she's thinking?

One of the most iconic episodes is that between a rock and a bra place and during COVID, the cast got together and read it. On a live stream. And the writers also showed up. And the writers actually said they had to fight with Disney for every time Bra was said. 

[00:19:40] Matthew: Wow. 

[00:19:40] Jennifer: The word bra was so a like dangerous.

And she had a fight for it. And they said, okay, you could have it this many times. And the brother has to do something very masculine. So they had to balance it. And once I learned that during COVID, if you look, the more feminine, the issue that Lizzie deals with, the more masculine, side quest Matt goes on.

And I found that fascinating in a way of like, I'm glad they made that compromise, but I'm sad they had to, you know? Yeah. But it's an inter it's an interesting commentary that I have wanted to share with you guys. 

[00:20:23] Matthew: That is, that is interesting. I expect that Disney's reason for that was well. If it's too much about girl stuff, then we have cut our audience in half, like only girls are gonna watch it.

[00:20:35] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:20:35] Matthew: And apparently that's probably a tragedy to Disney. 

[00:20:38] Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:40] Matthew: I, I don't think any boys of that age or I don't think I'm generalizing and I could be totally wrong about 

[00:20:47] Jennifer: it. Yeah. 

[00:20:48] Matthew: I don't think very many boys of that age were watching this show. Let's say were watching it with their sister and probably enjoying it.

And not admitting it. 

[00:20:56] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:20:58] Matthew: But if that's the case, that's fine. 

[00:21:02] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:21:02] Matthew: Why not? Who 

[00:21:03] Ian: cares? 

[00:21:04] Matthew: We're all allowed to have shows that nobody is really expecting girls to watch. 

[00:21:08] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:21:08] Matthew: Why not? A show that nobody's really expecting boys to watch. If they do, fine. Yeah. But that's not who we're making it for. 

[00:21:14] Ian: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Matthew: Anybody's welcome, but that's not who we're making it for. 

[00:21:16] Jennifer: Exactly. 

[00:21:17] Matthew: And yeah, I, I agree with you. It's a good thing they made the compromise. Mm-hmm. But the fact that they had to is weird. 

[00:21:22] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:21:22] Ian: There are episodes just in the few we saw where I could see not having the little brothers antics. Would be a pain for pacing because cutting away to the little brother doing something, gave time for Lizzie to have done the next thing off screen in what she was doing.

And so useful for that in terms of the narrative. But you could honestly cut the little brother's clips out, put him on YouTube now and call it a completely different show. And it would probably hold up 'cause it feels like a completely different Disney channel show happening at the same time. 

[00:22:00] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:22:01] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:22:02] Ian: Right down to the fact that I, at least from the variety we got, the little brothers is full of weird cameos that I'm not expecting. And the strangest subplots and arcs, he's running on a little bit more cartoon logic than anyone else in the, in the entire family. 

[00:22:19] Matthew: Very much. 

[00:22:20] Ian: Yeah. And that works. The, the references are not gonna land for the kids.

They're gonna land for the adults. A lot of the little brother, being played by Jake Thomas and Robert Carradine, the dad doing the side things, but Robert Carradine is carrying half of those segments more than the little brother in those, because they work as a comedy duo in an interesting way.

[00:22:44] Matthew: It seems to me like it took them a little while to get there, but eventually they got to the point where, okay, Lizzie takes more after her mom. 

[00:22:51] Ian: Mm-hmm. Yep. 

[00:22:52] Matthew: And Matt takes more after his dad and his dad had kind of a weird youth and was into all kinds of different things. Yeah. And that's why he can be drawn into these plans of, of Matt's and I, yeah.

I, I related to Matt so much, he reminded me of myself as a kid. 

[00:23:09] Jennifer: Oh, yeah. 

[00:23:10] Ian: Oh, 

[00:23:11] Matthew: every week. It's another weird scheme to do something. I, 

[00:23:14] Ian: I was relating because he had this dad who had all these weird hobbies. He still had pieces of that he could just pull out of nowhere. It's like, oh yeah, I did some of that, but like, you did some of that back in the day.

I'd love to know about this. You've got supplies. I've got an idea about those. That was relatable. 

[00:23:33] Jennifer: I'm so relieved to hear, 

[00:23:35] Ian: oh, yes, if this happened later on, the idea that. Matt would have a new idea and, and you know, the dad would say, oh, podcasting equipment. I have some of that. We could do some would've made a lot of sense.

[00:23:48] Jennifer: I'm honestly so relieved to hear that you guys like Matt. So one of the things I wanted to email you was like, please forgive Matt. Like, I hate that part of it. 

[00:23:58] Matthew: That was 

[00:23:58] Jennifer: because I love Lizzie, 

[00:24:00] Ian: so I think 

[00:24:01] Jennifer: so. I'm glad I didn't say anything. 

[00:24:02] Ian: We're kind of here saying like, Disney, why did you do that? Now we've just said, but that worked great.

Yeah, thanks Disney. We balanced it out. It's like, I, I guess Disney succeeded. I dunno how to, 

[00:24:13] Matthew: yes. 

[00:24:14] Ian: This does feel like an really Disney show in that sense though. Mm-hmm. With the balancing and the animation, everything else, it's very, very, of its time and of a certain peak of Disney channel and its branding and content.

I can't tell if this was mid that peak. Or the harbinger of that. 

[00:24:33] Jennifer: It also is because it was competing against its main competitor at the time, which was Nickelodeon and Nickelodeon's entire thesis was kids against parents, like the kids rule, the world kinda things. Mm-hmm. You know, against the parents.

Whereas Disney Channel took a very, parents are with the kids. and I think this was one of the flagships of that because , the parents are never actually bad people. Like they are never antagonistic to their kids. Sometimes they have to set hard rules, but that's what parents do. They're not friends.

Like they, they are parents. and I think that this was one of those flagships of saying we are about the kids and the parents finding harmony. 

and I love that because I think,

parents and kids should find har, hopefully. Right. and I do love the ways that. It expresses that pushback, like when you're a teen that you kind of, you go through that rebel phase and it's not a bad thing, and yet the parents are there to guide still.

And I think it's, I think it's a really good representation of Yes, it's heightened, it's, it's a little extra. Right. but it, it is a good version of, a healthy nuclear family. 

[00:25:48] Matthew: Hmm. And they still managed to find enough tension to tell stories. Yes. They didn't have to exaggerate conflict among people who really shouldn't be in conflict 

[00:25:57] Jennifer: mm-hmm.

[00:25:57] Matthew: In order to tell stories. That's the, the cheap and easy way. 

[00:26:00] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:26:01] Matthew: To get a kid's television story. And they never seemed to quite take that route. 

[00:26:05] Ian: They're even balancing enough that at the end of that Rock and a bra place episode mm-hmm. During the big admitting and learning the lesson portion, the mom.

Pauses and apologizes for not respecting her daughter enough to let her try to do this on her own, and not respecting her and letting her grow up properly in that sense. And that opens it up for when Lizzie says, no, I was wrong.

I should have listened to you on that more. That has bigger impact. Because there was an acknowledgement that the point that was being made at first had some validity, even if it wasn't the right path in this sense, it's like, no. It's like, you know, you, yeah. You can grow up and be able to do this on your own.

I can, but I'm not there yet. I need help. That's a deep lesson. 

And it requires the parents to be simultaneously firm enough to say. I'm here to help or you need help on this, and also be able to say, but I can listen and be wrong and make a mistake. That takes a depth that a lot of the shows later, even from Disney, who was parents with the kids weren't giving.

[00:27:21] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:27:21] Ian: So that's a really good example of, how much nuance they were putting and how much focus and thought they were putting into that relationship between the family members. 

[00:27:30] Jennifer: And again, like the example from my own life, when that episode aired, my mother turned to me and was like, please tell me I didn't do that.

Like, please tell me I didn't embarrass you because I promised myself just like that mom did that, you know, my mom embarrassed me when, when that time came, and I never wanted to do that to my daughter. And I told her, I was like, no, mom. I didn't feel embarrassed when we went because I had just had like. I don't know, a couple months prior gone through that experience and something I'd never seen represented before, and I don't think I've ever seen represented again.

so it was, it again, it was a way to have the parents almost like, kind of talk to me about these issues. And so that's, a really good example, a very specific one. what were some of the other episodes like we came on it, so that's such 

[00:28:22] Matthew: a big end. Well, before we get into the episodes, I also wanna talk about some of the other characters.

Okay. 'cause I think they make the rest of, of Lizzie's world work very well. Mm-hmm. The most stereotypical, the, the, the most tropey characters are the mean girls that she has conflict with. But that kind of makes sense if we're seeing this from Lizzie's perspective, because these, the people about you whom she knows the least, all she knows are.

These surface ideas about who they are, what they choose to present. 

[00:28:53] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:54] Matthew: And, you know, you need some tropes to tell a story. So I think that works. 

[00:28:57] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:58] Matthew: But her friends, yeah. Gordo, and I'm drawing a blank Miranda. 

[00:29:05] Jennifer: Don't worry, I got your back. That's good to do. 

[00:29:09] Matthew: I I almost called her Randa, like the mean girl and friends with them for an episode.

I thought that Gordo and Miranda were, were interesting because they were at the same kind of level of reality or non-reality as Lizzie and the rest of her world. 

[00:29:24] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:25] Matthew: But they were such different personalities.

Gordo was an interesting example of a person who didn't really fit in at school. Mm-hmm. But seemed very comfortable in his own skin, kind of understood who he was. Liked who he was. Yeah. Liked doing the things he did. He had goals and challenges and wanted to accomplish things. 

[00:29:42] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:43] Matthew: But he was never wishing he was somebody else.

The way it's so easy to do when you're in middle school. 

[00:29:47] Ian: Yeah. Oh yeah. You, uh, 

[00:29:51] Jennifer: oh, oh, oh. Did, did, did Gordo remind you of anyone? Anyone we may know in this family? 

[00:29:59] Ian: For those of you on our audio podcast, the producer has just walked into the side of the room and pointed at me quite, quite personally, and yeah.

Oh no. Smart kid who's also doing the artsy stuff and. Would. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:16] Matthew: Yes. The producer being your mom. 

[00:30:18] Ian: Yes. That's, that's the thing. Yes. So yeah, there was some, there was definitely some, oh yeah, that's, that's the sort of kid I was, Gordo avoided the trading card games. Probably probably gave him more time for a lot of other project stuff.

[00:30:33] Jennifer: Well, I, I didn't give you boys the d and d episode, so, 

[00:30:37] Ian: oh, 

[00:30:37] Matthew: there's a DD episode. 

[00:30:39] Jennifer: I will say that that episode didn't age as well as some of the others. Okay. But there is a d and d episode. There's also the one where he gets a godo, gets a credit card, and goes into filmmaking and has to learn about budgets.

Um, 

[00:30:53] Matthew: but, 

[00:30:54] Jennifer: um, 

[00:30:54] Ian: these might, 

[00:30:55] Matthew: yeah, this, this is a phrase I never, a sentence I never expected I would ever say. I think I might need to watch more. Lizzie McGuire. Oh, 

[00:31:04] Ian: I think we might have, I think we might have a Patreon episode. We, nothing sooner than we expected about those two. 'cause that sounds really interestingly on topic.

[00:31:14] Jennifer: And godo does have an episode where he talks about going through his bar bar mitzvah, and I'm so sorry, I cannot say it correctly.

I'm trying. But, um, he waited longer than is normal for that culture and actually decided to take the time to do the in inner workings of why am I going through this ceremony? because he took it very seriously versus some people just go through the motions of things like that. And that reminds me of someone else, you know, going through, going through that of like actually taking it seriously.

Not through that, but through your own religion. 

[00:31:51] Ian: Yeah, I can see 

[00:31:52] Matthew: that. And, and that's, uh, that's another, another good lesson for that age is 

[00:31:57] Jennifer: yeah, 

[00:31:57] Matthew: don't be quick to do something because it's time. Yeah. Because you're supposed to do it when you're this age. Let's get it over with. 

[00:32:04] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:32:04] Matthew: Some of these milestones are important.

[00:32:06] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:06] Matthew: And they need to fit where you are as a person. That's a really interesting idea. 

[00:32:10] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:32:11] Matthew: To hear that Gordo, who was very, he was very empirically oriented. He was very scientific. Mm-hmm. And yet you could see he had a lot of, he gave things a lot of thought. 

[00:32:20] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:20] Matthew: I could see where he wanted to, okay, I wanna know about this and take part in it as opposed to just have it happen because I'm 13.

[00:32:29] Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. That's great. Exactly. So he, yeah, he really took, took time. Um, which, uh, just reminded me about how seriously you took your confirmation. Yeah. Perfect. Um, that, yeah. That it wasn't going through the motions. Mm-hmm. It wasn't just, you know, picking. Something, it was actually taking time and, and inner thought.

So if we're talking about Gordo there's Gordo centric episodes and then there's Miranda centric, you know, and then there's Lizzie centric. and I, I did show you guys a lot of the more Lizzie ones with like a Miranda tossed in 

[00:32:57] Matthew: and Miranda was interesting because she, she was a little bit more aggressive in putting herself out in the world than Lizzie could be at times.

Mm-hmm. And sort of making sure people understood where she stood and, and who she was. And yet she could easily be overwhelmed by other people kind of taking all the oxygen out of the room. Yeah. Whether it's being led to be friends with the mean girls for an episode, or whether it's being exasperated by whatever Lizzie has gotten herself into.

Mm-hmm. I could see where they would be friends. Yeah. And yet they weren't just copies of the same personality. 

[00:33:36] Jennifer: A hundred percent. 

[00:33:37] Ian: And in terms of this being a lesson and storytelling engine, the three of them make a great trinity here because I really kept thinking of how they related in that sense to ethics and argument.

Mm-hmm. And you've got very much, Gordo as the logos, the logic, and , Miranda has pathos very much more about the emotion and a lot of those pieces. She was the one that Lizzie would turn to when she was feeling big emotion aspect. Mm-hmm. And that put Lizzie figuring things out as ethos, as the ethics and the reason and the connection to that outside world aspect.

The three of them make a really great, a great example for like a formal college level ethics course in terms of that discussion. Because they are related to each other, and it's not a hard line between them. 

[00:34:27] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:27] Ian: But if the story needed to lean in a direction to point something out, it had a character who emphasized that in order to help persuade and show the situation in question.

[00:34:41] Jennifer: Jumping off this, something I have never, ever thought about Lizzie before, is it also lines up with Freud. Mm-hmm. Because if you think of Miranda as the id and Gordo as the ego, and Lizzie as the super ego, literally that episode You're a Good Man, Lizzie McGuire, when she's fighting over, what should she do?

She has the id and the, ego like clashing in her dreams. And I never thought about that. 

[00:35:07] Ian: The, the party planning episode is very similar here is Lizzie confronted with this issue of being paired up with someone who she. Morally upset with and having this disaster of a broken mm-hmm.

School statue. And you watch Gordo go off on this tangent trying to figure out like the logistics of how to escape the country and avoid this. And Miranda talking all about what this is going to do socially and the emotions of the environment and that it all lines up as well with the, id is just like, what's this gonna do?

What's the action? And the, the ego is going, how do we fix this? What is the actions, what is the steps? And those are all combining in that very much fits as well. They are, they are very quintessential trio in that sense. 

Yeah. 

[00:35:54] Ian: Without being, without being duplicates on one side. Yeah. And without being overzealously depicted as such on the other mm-hmm.

They are balanced in that being reasonable and just the right amount of heightened. They're not overwhelmed by these roles in terms of their storytelling, but they're tinted just enough to make that stand out. 

[00:36:16] Matthew: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:16] Ian: Yeah, I completely agree. 

[00:36:20] Matthew: The specific episodes that you had us watch.

We're not forgetting, so, 'cause there were some details in that. Fun. The first one was, we've talked about a lot Yeah. Talked about been a rock in a bra place. Yes. Where Lizzie and Miranda wanna go to the mall and buy bras for the first time. 

[00:36:34] Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:36] Matthew: And we've talked about that aspect of this. I really do want to, say how much I enjoyed Matt's part of this, where he is, he's making a video to enter a contest to be Jet Li's sidekick in Jet Li's new movie,

Yeah. And he's making this with, um, is it Gordo who's helping him make the movie and his, his dad? Yep. And eventually his dad calls a friend. 

[00:37:04] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:05] Matthew: David. 

[00:37:06] Ian: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

[00:37:08] Matthew: Who's David Carradine from the TV series, Kung Fu. Which reminds me, Ian, I've gotta show you some of the TV series, Kung Fu. 

[00:37:14] Ian: Oh goodness. Yeah.

So upcoming episode at some point. 

[00:37:18] Matthew: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:37:19] Ian: Oh goodness. 

[00:37:19] Matthew: And of course, that's the brother of the car, uh, Carine, who is playing Lizzie's father. Mm-hmm. So it was a terrific in joke. David Carradine was essentially playing his character from Kung Fu, complete with the snatch the pebble from the hand bit and all of these.

Oh, that's from there. Okay. I didn't, I knew Grass Grasshopper 

[00:37:40] Jennifer: was 

[00:37:41] Matthew: Grasshopper. Also, 

[00:37:42] Ian: the fact that this is a reference, I don't think any of our generation would've gotten this was entirely for the parents who are sitting watching this with the kid. Yes. It's this element of like, Hey, I know this. Hey, 

[00:37:53] Jennifer: literally, my dad told me that, like when we watch again, like when we watched it, I was like, uh huh.

And my dad looked at me, he was like, it's like Grasshopper. He, it's, that's the guy from Kung Fu. And I'm just like, okay, can you get back to Lizzie now? Okay. Like, but yeah. Yeah, definitely for the parents. 

[00:38:12] Ian: Oh yeah. 

[00:38:13] Matthew: Um, you also had us watch the season one episode Obsession. Yes. Which is the Savage Steve Holland directed episode.

Yes. Where Lizzie is every single cause. Or charity or community effort that she could get involved in. Mm-hmm. Every, every waking hour and eventually all of her hours were waking hours. You had to be devoted to this because there were still things that had to happen in the world. And you were saying, uh, that was a story about balance.

Yeah. Jen, I, I think that that aspect of the story with Lizzie getting involved in all these things, that was the one episode in which that seemed to me things got repetitive. Oh, we kinda got the point long before they stopped trying to make the point. 

[00:38:55] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:38:56] Matthew: And yet it was still, there was enough interest there.

The, uh, the, there were two B stories though, in that episode. Mm-hmm. One with the Science Olympics and Matt as a hall monitor letting the power, oh goodness. The 

[00:39:11] Jennifer: power 

[00:39:11] Matthew: go to his head and Gordo in these science Olympics and getting obsessed with. With winning that against Tudgman, who's his yes. Rival for the smart kid.

[00:39:20] Jennifer: Yep. And Tudgman is a reoccurring character. 

[00:39:23] Matthew: Yep. 

[00:39:23] Jennifer: Um, and it is interesting that all those other two B plots are also forms of obsession. You know, obsession with, with winning and obsession with power. Yeah. Uh, so 

[00:39:34] Ian: there was a lot packed into that one episode overall because of the two B stories and the sheer extent of topics they were dealing with there.

And I think part of it is that, that one was directed a little differently. Savage Steve Holland fit, but was a little more intense. But I also think that there's just a pressure aspect of trying to cram so much density up to the amount of style, you know, stylization that was put into this, it became a more cartoonish episode 'cause they needed that to make space for the amount they were putting into this one episode line.

[00:40:13] Matthew: It does make me want some kind of a, uh, a Lizzie McGuire Fillmore! crossover. 

[00:40:18] Ian: Oh, yes. 

[00:40:18] Matthew: Where there has to be in interdepartmental communication or, or cooperation between Matt as a, uh, a safety patrol officer and those at X Middle school. 

[00:40:27] Ian: Oh, absolutely. That would, that 

[00:40:30] Matthew: would be, Matt is practically a, a Fillmore character anyways.

[00:40:33] Ian: Oh, oh, oh, what's his name? The one who's always falling over the cameraman from Fillmore. He's very much similarly to, uh, the 

[00:40:42] Matthew: Yep. 

[00:40:43] Ian: The, the, the crime scene photographer on Fillmore. Oh, goodness. 

[00:40:47] Jennifer: Well, you should see the Ocean's 11 Lizzie episode. Yeah. There's an ocean one. We're 

[00:40:52] Ian: build, we're building the next 

[00:40:54] Jennifer: one.

It's called the Lizzie 11. 

[00:40:56] Ian: We're building. Anyways, another No, no problem. I just watched that one this morning. Not problem. 

[00:41:01] Matthew: Right around this point, two or three episodes into watching these on Disney plus, I realized. I probably should have made a burner profile on Disney Plus before starting to watch these because it's affecting my recommendations.

Probably not with things I'm going to watch, but it just occurred to me like, oh, wow. Sorry. Um, 

[00:41:20] Ian: I think that, that, that's actually a point I wanna put a pin in. Yeah. Okay. For later when we're talking in, at our end questions. Okay. About 

[00:41:26] Matthew: Sure. 

[00:41:27] Ian: What this does to your Disney Plus profile and what that says about Disney.

Oh, okay. 

[00:41:32] Matthew: Interesting. 

[00:41:33] Ian: Look forward to it. 

[00:41:34] Matthew: The next episode you had us watch is called Facts of Life. Yes. Which isn't about what you might expect it to be about with with that title. Mm-hmm. It was about Miranda and Lizzie and Gordo being a team in the Fact-Athlon. Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:50] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:41:51] Matthew: And I would say the story, the lesson there eventually was about the difference between memorizing facts and learning, being about knowledge and understanding.

[00:42:01] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. I completely. 

[00:42:05] Matthew: Most of the episode I thought was better than the payoff at the end. Oh, of that one. 

[00:42:09] Jennifer: Okay. 

[00:42:10] Matthew: How, how did you like that? Um, 

[00:42:12] Ian: I definitely think it was a good lesson 'cause it's a lesson that usually gets learned more in high school and later on.

But I definitely think it was a little weird to undercut it the way it did. It felt rushed at the end with how it tried to deal with balancing the lesson and the results for Lizzie's life where the, failure of not winning the competition was a little too much. They didn't get anything right.

I was a little heightened and exaggerated, but then the, oh, you know, the teacher's quitting 'cause he failed. But no, he's not, because you pointed out he actually did great and you, you learned a lot, even if it wasn't facts. You learned about the how, not the what. That was great, but it was very condensed., It didn't ruin the lesson, but it definitely changed the tone because it meant that the structure of the story around the lesson was getting more of the attention there because they had to wrap it up narratively, but they'd already gotten the point across.

[00:43:18] Jennifer: Yeah, I suppose, I mean, I really liked that lesson because, surprise, surprise. I have a personal connection. It's like I picked out six episodes that I have personal connections to. Um, but this one actually took a while to land was in, um. junior, senior year of high school, I took art history. I took AP art history, and, I could easily remember why every piece of art was important.

Like for the, for the week that we were studying all the tests cared about was who made it and what year. And there was like, no, they did not care why it was important, and that was the only thing I could retain. And I remembered the lesson of Lizzie of that is actually more valuable. And it is okay because at the end of the day, filling in dates and names is not what makes someone more well-rounded.

So 

[00:44:15] Matthew: I, I agree with that. I like the fact that they were making that, that their lesson for that show 

[00:44:19] Jennifer: mm-hmm. 

[00:44:20] Matthew: For that episode. But what the contest was about is something they should have known and they should have known. Well, for this contest, I should be preparing. dates and places and things that said, it's, it's, yeah, it wasn't, so that didn't take me out of kind of the, the cartoonish reality that the show was based on and it worked fine.

Yeah. It still got that point across. 

[00:44:42] Ian: Yeah. The, the amount that that blindsided them is the silly TV aspect. 

[00:44:46] Matthew: Yeah. 

[00:44:47] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:44:48] Matthew: If one of them had just said, oh, right, I forgot this is about facts. 

[00:44:53] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:44:54] Matthew: the idea that they might never have known that was harder to believe than the idea that they might have forgotten that in the excitement of the new way of learning, that their replacement advisor, gave them, who is another really cool background character.

[00:45:08] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:45:08] Matthew: I like him 

[00:45:08] Jennifer: and he is definitely reoccurring and he, he shows up in a lot of different fun places. He does pretty much any, any school. Um, he can teach it all. 

[00:45:18] Ian: He can 

[00:45:18] Jennifer: teach it all. 

[00:45:19] Ian: There is a wonderful weird thing in kids media at the time that fits still today. Sometimes you can get away in a story of kids at a school with simultaneously implying the school is underfunded and not having to pay more school actors.

If you have one teacher who happens to be subbing in every single department, if that one teacher steps in and says, well, hey, character name that's just written into the script and we don't actually have an actor for is out with, fill in the reason why. So it's me. You can have the same actor keep doing that and they can have more personality and screen time, which is a win-win win in multiple ways for a lot of these.

Yeah, but it's a, it's a recurring trope in a wonderful, weird way. 

[00:46:10] Jennifer: Nope. I love Mr. Dig. 

[00:46:12] Ian: Oh yeah. 

[00:46:13] Jennifer: I always wanted a Mr. Dig in my school. 

[00:46:15] Ian: He's a fun version of this. 

[00:46:16] Matthew: He is. 

[00:46:16] Jennifer: Oh, yes. Yeah. 

[00:46:19] Matthew: You then after that episode, you had us jump into season two. 

[00:46:22] Jennifer: Yes. So I did try to split it. I split it 50 50 between season one and season two.

[00:46:27] Matthew: Now, were these shown a daily when they were first run or was it a weekly show? 

[00:46:31] Jennifer: So it, there was no, the way Disney Channel worked, there was no like, it's a new Lizzie tonight. It's just Lizzie. 

[00:46:41] Matthew: It's just something on. 

[00:46:42] Jennifer: It's just something like it. Lizzie exists and I mean, it wasn't until the like kind of the end of its time when Disney Channel started saying it's a new episode of this, because Lizzie just existed and they filmed out of Lizzie just existed.

It filmed out of order as we kind of discovered, yeah. So they filmed out of order from what they aired and it, they never revealed to us when it was new versus when it was a rerun. So we just had it on all the time, so we didn't miss anything. That was pretty much our solution to it.

[00:47:12] Matthew: The eternal Lizzie McGuire 

[00:47:14] Jennifer: Yes. 

[00:47:14] Matthew: Lizzie has no beginning and no end. 

[00:47:15] Jennifer: No end. True. I mean, and yeah. If you look at the, the things that happened, for some reason she graduates eighth grade in the middle of season two and continues on, so it makes no sense to when they aired or filmed anything 

[00:47:31] Matthew: because they weren't necessarily expecting people to be watching this in any order.

[00:47:34] Jennifer: Correct. 

[00:47:34] Matthew: There's not a lot of consequence continuity from one episode to the next, with the exception of graduation, like you said. 

[00:47:40] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:47:40] Matthew: Everything kind of is set back to normal, which is, you know, part of the, the formula that they're following. Yeah. They're following. Well, 

[00:47:46] Ian: yep. The biggest, unavoidable continuity is the fact that you've got a, a show full of.

Young actors and actresses who are growing up. Yeah. And that difference visually in some of these people between season one and season two is distinct. 

[00:48:02] Matthew: Yes. From the first episode they shot, which we went back and watched. Oh, you did? After you mentioned that the pool party. Oh. Uh, from the first episode they shot to the middle of season one.

It's like everybody's a year older. 

[00:48:13] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:48:13] Matthew: And then into season two, it's like they're five years older all of a sudden. Yeah. How that works. 

[00:48:18] Jennifer: Yeah. I don't know either. 'cause each season is 30 episodes. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Yeah, 

[00:48:24] Ian: yeah. Lizzie Mc, Lizzie McGuire's Town in middle school is a little bit closer to the center of an orbiting black hole.

So time is warping compared to what we perceive. I have not. It's this sort of weird dilation of time and shift that you get when you're, when you're dealing with a recording schedule on top of the fact that. You've got those animated segments, and I don't know how much they're pre-planning and getting those going, but I could see that really changing a production schedule when you've got interstitials like that, that are done with a completely different timescale than live filming and editing 

[00:49:01] Jennifer: maybe.

But regarding to them, growing up suspension of disbelief honey. Suspension of disbelief. That's right. 

[00:49:07] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:49:08] Jennifer: Yes. But yeah. Yeah. It's definitely noticeable when, oh yeah, when you switch. 

[00:49:14] Ian: Cool. 

[00:49:16] Matthew: And when we get into season two, this is the first episode in which, Lizzie is expressing much of an interest in boys and romance, and she mm-hmm.

Really wants to go out with Ethan. Yeah. 

[00:49:29] Jennifer: Oh yeah. 

[00:49:30] Matthew: Probably a great cartoonish lunkhead hearththrob. I love 

[00:49:32] Jennifer: that. Oh my goodness. What was the, what was the first, was it just friends? Just friends Was the first episide 

[00:49:38] Matthew: of that 

[00:49:39] Jennifer: title. Oh, Ethan Kra. So, 

[00:49:42] Matthew: and he looks about 25. 

[00:49:43] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh, but, uh, he, 

[00:49:47] Ian: he, he, character wise though, he looks 25 and he looks like he's stumbled in from a surfer movie on the neighboring lot and is just somehow okay with being here.

He's, he's so out of it and just there man, that he is, he fits regardless of where you put him. And I did appreciate the fact that there's an acknowledgement of that, I think in one of the episodes. Is this the dance episode? No, 

[00:50:22] Jennifer: uh, the, you mean the one where they all show up for her? 

[00:50:25] Ian: Yeah. Oh, uh, no. No one where there's 

[00:50:27] Matthew: a dance class taught by our favorite teacher.

Right. The 

[00:50:29] Jennifer: dance class. Oh, that's, that's in Miranda. Uh, in Miranda. Lizzie does not trust. That's gonna be the next one. 

[00:50:34] Ian: In the next episode there, there's an entire moment where the teachers are like, , he saw a bird and wandered off that way. And that's a legitimate and understandable in world explanation for why that actor and that character are not here for this scene.

Yeah, it is. That's very, very poignant about just the kind of character they've built here. Yeah. 

[00:50:54] Matthew: We talked about Savage, Steve Holland earlier, and his connection here. I wanna see a conversation between Ethan and Charles DeMar from Better Off Dead. 

[00:51:02] Ian: Oh goodness. That would be wild. 

[00:51:06] Jennifer: I can 

[00:51:06] Ian: only imagine. 

[00:51:09] Jennifer: Uh, yeah.

And just a fun note. So the first episode of this season is actually her first kiss with a different boy and that boy. I actually, um, the actor who played that, boy I have a connection because my best friend knew him. , He's changed course. And so that boy, went to CU Boulder for, biology and my best friend went to CU Boulder for biology.

And they, they, they crossed paths. 

[00:51:39] Ian: We're playing five degrees of Lizzie McGuire here. Yes. We're That's kind of amazing. 

[00:51:43] Jennifer: And I, I just, I was like, I have to get that factoid in. Okay. 

[00:51:46] Ian: Thank you. 

[00:51:46] Jennifer: Continue. Now that we're done talking about boys and 

[00:51:49] Matthew: the, the gist of that story, which I thought was done very well, 'cause they made it very funny, while still having their point, is Lizzie having this whole secret agent operation with her and her two friends trying to find out what kind of a girl does Nathan, like Ethan, and then trying to become that girl.

Mm-hmm. And it's everything from golf to being. Mysterious, which sort sort of becomes a femme fatale sort of character. All these things. It's before I realized, I kind of suspected that might be the one that was directed by Steve Holland because it had that 

[00:52:21] Jennifer: Oh 

[00:52:21] Matthew: yeah. That kind of absurdism mm-hmm. 

[00:52:23] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:23] Matthew: That he seems good at. And it, it explains why his style fits in with this series. Mm-hmm. Uh, and this other director taking that same kind of idea. So that was fun to watch. 

[00:52:32] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:52:32] Matthew: Yeah. And eventually she realizes now a, it's not really going to change how he feels about her. Mm-hmm. And B, you're always better off being yourself.

[00:52:42] Ian: Yeah. For being a nineties teenager show, there is a lot of seventies and eighties teen comedy, DNA baked into this show and its structure, which is why that fits and why that styling really works here. And some of those references and the, the way that entire episode breaks down and the way. The way her fake persona is so disjointed shows that they understood the mindset, not just of the girl characters, but the guy characters too.

He is all over the place and trying to fit every category of his interests doesn't make sense. 

[00:53:22] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:23] Ian: In a very realistic and understandable way. There's this interesting double layering of the lens there where we're getting the lens of seeing into his mind, through seeing into her mind as she tries to figure out his mind.

[00:53:36] Jennifer: And honestly, one of the things that I also love about that episode is bringing it to the parent-child relationship is, there's a perfect example where like the mom tries to share her wisdom of why I did this once and it didn't work. And I love Lizzie's response of, well, maybe you didn't do it well enough.

You know, it's like, this is, and then the mom's kind of, you see the shoulders slump, right? It's, and it's just like, oh, she has to learn on her own. Yeah. I, I try, I tried. It didn't, you know? And then, uh, it is like, ah, I get, she's gonna have to learn on her own. Okay. And then she's like, okay, you know, go, go.

You know, I'm sorry. I, I tried. 

[00:54:12] Ian: Yeah. I was like, I, I can fight against the plot line. Okay. We're doing this. 

[00:54:16] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. 

[00:54:18] Matthew: And that's a, a point that comes through in this series is the idea that the parents have to learn too. Yeah. They haven't done this before either. 

[00:54:25] Jennifer: Yeah, 

[00:54:25] Ian: yeah, 

[00:54:26] Jennifer: yeah. Yeah. They haven't been parents before.

Yeah. And this is their first, 14-year-old girl that they've ever raised. And yeah, 

[00:54:34] Ian: there's a balance there sometimes where they'll, they'll look at what Lizzie's going through and they'll almost turn to match their younger son saying, we're gonna have to deal with the boy version of this in how much time.

Yeah. And that kind of fits this entire moment where, or, or when Matt pops up with a little, you know, bratty younger brother, comment against Lizzie and there's this, you know, you're gonna be going through your own version of this in just a couple of years. Calm down. Yeah. There's that element of like they, if, if she was a middle child, it would have a different ring.

Mm-hmm. But putting her as the oldest of two mm-hmm. Balanced that out because it let the parents not know what was coming. 

[00:55:14] Matthew: Right. 

[00:55:14] Ian: Yet they got a good idea and they, they understand how to do this to that extent. 

[00:55:19] Matthew: And it didn't set them up to make the mistake of assuming that their second child was going to be the same as their first child and should be raised in the same way.

Yeah. So we avoided that while giving them the idea, well, well, letting us see that they're learning and they're figuring out how to be parents. 

[00:55:32] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:55:32] Matthew: And that was great to see. 

[00:55:33] Jennifer: Yeah, I love that too. 

[00:55:35] Matthew: And uh, and I imagine that raising Matt as he gets older, it's gonna be very, very different raising with Lizzie.

[00:55:41] Clip: Oh yeah. 

[00:55:41] Matthew: I have this theory since we have with Lizzie, we have Lizzie in her real world. Mm-hmm. And then we have the animation of her interior monologue, which is more goofy and surreal than Liz. Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:54] Jennifer: Yes. 

[00:55:55] Matthew: I have this feeling that because Matt, because the world, which Matt inhabits is so goofy and surreal, he's got this animated interior monologue, which is very straightforward.

Very logical. Assesses everything, very sensibly. 

[00:56:11] Ian: I like that. 

[00:56:12] Jennifer: Oh, that's gotta, 

[00:56:13] Matthew: they're just inside out. 

[00:56:15] Jennifer: Yes. I love that. Oh God. Okay. I would watch that. Oh yeah, I would watch that. Okay. Jake Thomas, get on it. 

[00:56:21] Ian: Yeah.

[00:56:25] Matthew: And then we got to the other season two episode, which is, uh, in Miranda, Lizzie Does Not Trust, which is about trust between best friends. 

[00:56:33] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:34] Matthew: And that's one where I, that's possibly the only one where I, the, the lesson that they seemed to be teaching didn't quite ring right for me. 

[00:56:41] Jennifer: Oh, interesting. 

[00:56:42] Matthew: How, how, how did you feel about that one?

[00:56:44] Jennifer: I liked how complicated it was because, and I also like, so the lesson, if you haven't seen this episode or don't remember, is. About, Miranda, is accused of stealing at a shopping mall. and Lizzie doesn't immediately back her up because it's like, well, these logically fall into place. And I, I don't wanna lie, she's a very honest person.

Character that's definitely part of her character trait. Something I greatly related to. and then throughout the episode, Miranda saying, how dare you not back me up? of course I would never steal. and, you should have been there for me as a friend. And at the end of the day, there's the lesson that the episode does say is to always back up your friend.

but I really love that when Lizzie decides that and she steps in to back Miranda on the next issue that's come up, it's completely undercut by Miranda being honest and saying. Actually, I, I did lie this time. And so what I really liked about it was that it wasn't clear cut because Lizzie learns the lesson a little earlier than most episodes for the formula.

because they give it time to have the, well also, you know, it, it's not always the case. Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:10] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:10] Jennifer: And what I really liked though is that it did show Miranda's integrity to when she, she did something bad Again, that idea of following the I idea as she's like, I want to pass this class. I'm gonna steal an essay because I am so overwhelmed.

And then she gets called out on it, going through the experience of also what does it mean when my friends see me cut all these corners? Hmm. Miranda learns the lesson as a side character of integrity and. Going, I didn't do this or I did do this to the teacher, because it's also a little bit of, if I admit to when I am caught, then my friends can more easily trust when I say I didn't do it, I didn't do it.

Because when I am caught and I did do it, I say I did do it, and I take responsibility. and so that's why I liked the episode and why I put it on the list is because it helped me navigate those more gray areas in my life of do I stand by my friend just because she's my friend? Or do I go through the logical, like, what happened?

And the answer is both. Mm-hmm. Like, figure out, it's completely dependent on the scenario of what happened and what that friend has shown you in the past does matter. With what you say in a present situation. Yeah. And the more you see them take responsibility for their actions, the easier it is to back them up with anything they say they did or didn't do.

[00:59:48] Matthew: Yeah. I like that your description of that as being a more complex, lesson. It is a good one. We see Miranda learning that lesson too. Yeah. Not just Lizzie, how do it seemed, for a while that the lesson they were having Lizzie learn was support your friends no matter what. 

[01:00:03] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[01:00:04] Matthew: And instead, at least as much we see Miranda learning, how do I be the kind of person who will be backed up by their friends because they know who I am.

[01:00:11] Ian: Yeah. None of the characters in this story are the, or are a rock in the stream that Lizzie's on. They are all moving and changing characters along with her. And that's important because dealing with something with a much more gray aspect like this is very important. And I, I honestly think in the end, they do an okay job of defending the.

Miranda didn't steal earlier because she'll take responsibility, but it's not clear as to whether or not that was, that was the case, or did Miranda learn a lesson and change? Mm-hmm. And there's a gray aspect there where that initial point of contention is in the end, we trust and we, we say, okay, maybe she didn't do it, but it's not ever proven completely one way or the other.

[01:00:59] Jennifer: Yeah, that's true. 

[01:01:00] Ian: And that's the important thing. There's a, there is a vagueness and an openness to that initial point that they don't resolve, and that's part of what life's gonna be like. You're not gonna get the resolution to all those questions every time. This helps prepare for uncertainty and what to deal with in that moment as much as it does.

How to stand by someone or integrity overall. Uncertainty. Being a lesson alongside integrity helps make the integrity lesson more impactful. But it makes telling that story harder. Yeah. 

[01:01:33] Jennifer: Yeah. And they still only have 30 minutes for her to figure it out. 

[01:01:37] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:01:37] Jennifer: You know, and so I thought there were a lot of good, again, to your point of like tools, right?

So it's like, I, I never actually went through this pers this, this, you know, my friend was never accused of stealing or things. but the idea of, having the tool to. Honestly pull information from the past and not just what she's done this week, or if taken a little bit more liberal, like with taking the candies of like, take one, or take as many as you want, or, or whatever it said.

It's also the, what happens when she's been caught before and like what has happened. Yeah. If there was anything. Right. and again, I really did love the, sometimes the answer's a little gray, sometimes it's a little muddy. Yeah. And at the end of the day, Lizzie and Miranda do come away as friends because they both have that integrity, and

they both grew from the experience. And so if there's growth, integrity, and communication, things can always, move forward in a positive way. 

[01:02:40] Matthew: I like that. 

[01:02:41] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[01:02:42] Matthew: The b and c stories in that one were also fun. The, the story involving Gordo was actually more tied in with the, the main story than it sometimes is because it involved that dance class.

[01:02:52] Ian: Yeah, that's right. Yes. 

[01:02:53] Matthew: And trust falls and Gordo , being paired with a girl who is like 18 inches taller than he is. But she knew how to dance, so she figured out a way to present dances required for this, this class. 

[01:03:08] Jennifer: Yeah. 

You definitely laughed a lot to that 

performance. 

[01:03:10] Ian: That one caught me off guard in a great way.

Yeah. With him, just like finding, like there's a, there's an element of like, lean in on your strengths if someone's great at something. How can you help, but don't try to overdo it. And like there, there was something very regular, you know, fun, more kids show than normal. But that was a good moment too.

[01:03:29] Jennifer: It was fun. 

[01:03:30] Matthew: And meanwhile we've got Matt, um, doing kind of a Wayne's world parody as he invents, streaming internet talk shows pre-YouTube. 

[01:03:38] Ian: Yeah. With 

[01:03:39] Matthew: I guess flash video. 

[01:03:41] Ian: Oh no. He became a prank streamer 

[01:03:43] Matthew: and his, uh, and his dad gets sucked into this. 

[01:03:46] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:03:47] Matthew: Becomes, becomes more and more slapstick comedy.

[01:03:49] Ian: Oh yeah. There, oh my goodness, there. That one was, that one was awkward though as well, because that was the most sitcom cringe of any of the episodes. So I was there going like, uh, it's my kryptonite. No. 

[01:04:03] Jennifer: Um, but yeah, I, I do love how that one ties in though. Yeah. Like where it's like. Even though I'm upset with my friends, he needs me.

So I'm gonna go to him like, you know, full stop. Like, you know. Yeah. Well that's 

[01:04:15] Matthew: right. 'cause Matt and Lanny have a falling out. 

[01:04:17] Jennifer: Exactly. 

And that really triggers Lizzie to be like, oh, you know, um, and so I do love that inner inner connection. 

[01:04:26] Matthew: I like that. And then finally you had us watch, you are a Good man, Lizzie McGuire.

[01:04:31] Jennifer: Yep. 

[01:04:32] Matthew: Which was kind of of more straightforward lesson of that tension between not wanting to be a tattletale versus. You and other people are suffering consequences because of something someone else did and won't own up to. 

[01:04:47] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:48] Matthew: Involving, knocking the head off of a statue in the school courtyard.

[01:04:53] Jennifer: The cut that out guy. 

[01:04:55] Matthew: Yes. The cut that, cut that out. The founding principle of the school and the quote from him is, cut that out. Kids. Yes. Yes. 

[01:05:04] Ian: Which they, they used a great effect all throughout episode. They really did episodes. Yeah. Uh, and of course this has also got some of those like, oh, these are kids trying to figure out how to deal with the situation.

The answer of like, how do we repair a statue? Chewing gum is, is such a like, oh, this is a Disney kids show kind of moment. 

[01:05:22] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:23] Ian: But. The, the lugging around of half of a marble statue head Yeah. Is the wildest prop moment I've seen in any of these kind of shows for a while. Yeah. 

[01:05:36] Matthew: And this is also where, as you mentioned earlier, we've got godo solving the problem by figuring out how they can hide Lizzie's identity and smuggle her over the border into Canada, get her a job as a lumberjack.

Yes. Meanwhile, we come back here, he's, he's planning it out very logically. Not very sensibly, but very logical. 

[01:05:51] Ian: Yeah, exactly. So, 

[01:05:53] Jennifer: um, they always remember that, oh, okay. Uh, which was the first time I heard that. and just that, that idea, and I do love the Gordo, we need another idea. And he's like, I gave you my idea.

You didn't like the idea. 

[01:06:08] Ian: There was, okay, this is gonna be a weird pull. There's something about that episode's pacing and styling that reminded me of later shows targeted towards. older audiences later. That show has more in common and resonates with things like How I Met Your Mother or Brooklyn Nine nine in terms of pace and styling.

And there's something I can see these actors growing up to be able to do roles like that. And I can see these writers writing things in a style that we would see in later sitcoms that would follow the audience in terms of target and age and sense of humor to some extent that one had had an element of that that rang deeper in that episode than anything else.

[01:06:55] Matthew: I like that comparison you're making to the humor in say, a Brooklyn nine nine. 

[01:06:59] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:00] Matthew: And that's where some of Matt's side stories fit in. There was one from a prior episode where he and his friend Lanny go from inventing a new kind of smoothie.

Geez. To having like a successful stand. And eventually Matt is essentially running a nightclub in the backyard. Yes. Uh, as if it's in 1950s Havana. 

[01:07:17] Ian: Well, oh, that, that's the one with the school dance? No, no, 

[01:07:21] Matthew: no. The one with the school dance is where he and Lanny are trying to share the bicycle. 

[01:07:25] Ian: That's the share of the bicycle.

Okay. Oh, yes. I'm trying. They 

[01:07:28] Matthew: do wind up partying in the backyard because eventually Lizzie admits to do to breaking the statue, even though she didn't. 

[01:07:36] Jennifer: Right. 

[01:07:37] Matthew: But everybody learns that she took the fall so that the dance wouldn't be canceled. So everybody came to her house instead of the dance, and they wind up having a party in the backyard.

I love that ending. 

[01:07:49] Jennifer: I love them. That was so fun. I love that ending. Mm-hmm. I love that moment. I love that. You know, I, I love that moment. Everyone shows up for her because she did the right thing for everybody else. Mm-hmm. Um, and that is just so beautiful. 

[01:08:05] Matthew: And it's, it's a good example of how they show Lizzie is not the person who stands out in this community.

Mm-hmm. They're portraying a pretty good community, a group of kids trying to do their best with the occasional exception for the sake of story. Mm-hmm. At this end of the only person who is at the dance wondering where everybody else is, is the one who committed the wrong and wouldn't own up to it. Yeah.

So we do see some consequences there, but it shows that everybody is, everybody has a certain moral compass and they recognize when someone like Lizzie has done something good and they want to reward that and not leave her on the outside, I, that's a terrific ending. 

[01:08:45] Jennifer: Yeah, it really is. And the way you just phrased it, I've been trying to figure out how to put this little behind the scenes tidbit, but this is the perfect smooth entry is, I wonder if the idea of right and wrong and justice.

Is what caused the actress who plays that mean girl to become a lawyer. I wonder because the actress did Oh, wow. Become a lawyer as, as she grew. And actually that's, you know, chose an adult career's. Very cool. That's pretty awesome. But I, I wanted to drop that little behind the scene. Yay, tidbit. Uh, because I just always think that's so cool.

[01:09:17] Matthew: And we talked about the animation. One thing I have to, to mention, because it occurred to me as we were watching these, the sense of humor we see in the little animated Lizzie Bits. I recognize, oh, that's where a lot of Jen's sense of humor comes from. 

[01:09:33] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:09:34] Jennifer: I told you 

[01:09:35] Matthew: it's edition of this thing, but it's really this thing.

[01:09:38] Ian: I saw that. So, hello Jen. Absolutely. 

[01:09:41] Matthew: There we go. 

[01:09:42] Jennifer: I told these two men when I, I said Lizzie raised me. Lizzie was definitely, I had my mom, I had my dad, and I had Lizzie, and they didn't believe me. They said, no, it couldn't be that much. It couldn't be that. And I was like, watch the show guys. 

[01:09:57] Ian: Yeah, that's, yeah.

[01:09:58] Jennifer: Like Lizzie raised me. She's one of my foundational models of how I wanted to go through the world. and I chose to emulate that in, in multiple ways. And I took, as I mentioned previously, I took lessons from that. My entire life. And, I'm glad that, I'm glad it's clear now.

[01:10:21] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:10:21] Jennifer: It's clear. 

[01:10:22] Ian: Well, a big part of what, what we do here on the Inter Millennium Media Project podcast is talk about how the media we watch when we were younger influences and changes us. And that's such a, a fine example of it, how this had such an impact and taught such good lessons and affected your sense of humor and your outlook on things.

And that's a, that's an important piece. So it's great. 

[01:10:48] Jennifer: Yeah. I'm really glad I got to share it. Thank you. With both of you. I'm like, I've just, I've been so excited and I'm, I'm just so glad that she was, uh, received warmly. She's so much of me. 

[01:11:03] Matthew: Well, I think we're coming down to our final questions. 

[01:11:05] Ian: I think so.

[01:11:06] Matthew: So stay tuned for those listeners. But before we get to those final questions about whether we recommend this show and what other ideas we have about it, if you are enjoying the Inter Millennium Media Project podcast and you want more, go to IMMProject.com.

That's where you'll find all of our back episodes and where you will find various ways to support the show on our Patreon, where you can get additional audio content our, store, if you like, t-shirts and coffee mugs and notebooks and fun things like that, either for fans of the podcast, but also for fans of things like the Prisoner and Space 1999.

[01:11:38] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:11:38] Matthew: You'll also find at IMMProject.com, places where you can contact us, you can reach us by mail at our post office box. You can reach us on Discord by email. And we'd really love to hear from you. Did you see this show as a kid or as an adult raising kids? Uh, what did you think of it?

Uh, any other shows that you would recommend that we take a look at? And Jen, as our guest, where can people find you and what you're doing? 

[01:12:05] Jennifer: Oh, well I have started a wedding planning business, so you can find me at starsalignweddings.com 

[01:12:12] Matthew: And I love the fact that, your first time joining us for the podcast was when we did an episode about , father of the bride.

[01:12:18] Jennifer: Yes, yes. 

[01:12:19] Ian: Yeah. And our wedding was so awesome. 

[01:12:23] Matthew: Yes, 

[01:12:24] Ian: yes, yes. That you 

[01:12:24] Matthew: proved your ability to 

[01:12:26] Ian: Absolutely. 

[01:12:28] Matthew: Ian, where can people find you? 

[01:12:30] Ian: I can be found online at itemcrafting.com or as ItemCraftingLive on Twitch. I stream every Thursday that I can, playing games and making crafts and projects. So come join the community and hope to see you there.

And Dad, how about you? 

[01:12:45] Matthew: You can find me as ByMatthewPorter pretty much anywhere. So you'll find me on BlueSky and Mastodon as ByMatthewPorter. You can also go to ByMatthewPorter.com, where you will find links to what I'm doing online, and you'll also find a link to my YouTube page where I review movies and movie theater experiences and travel experiences.

[01:13:06] Jennifer: Okay. 

[01:13:06] Ian: Yay. 

[01:13:06] Matthew: So final questions. 

[01:13:08] Ian: Aha. 

[01:13:09] Matthew: Screen or no screen. Do you recommend this to other people? 

[01:13:14] Jennifer: Yeah. Yes. Yes I do. I just did to these two. Yes. Watch it. 

[01:13:20] Ian: And I'm gonna say screen as well. This was good.

I do recommend this, this is a fine example of a, of a show in the early aughts that has that styling and that attention to detail. It's, it's not perfect, but it's. Really great. And so if you're looking for that kind of content, you want to see what this era of media is like.

And you want a great example of it. This one's a good one to go for. 

[01:13:46] Matthew: I'm having trouble with this one because I appreciated it for what it was, and I can, appreciate the fact that it's made very well, whether I recommend it to a lot of other people to watch.

That's kind of a different question. I have to admit, in watching this show, I made a note occasionally, like, am I going on a list somewhere because I am watching this. I'm an old man watching a TV show about middle schoolers buying their first bra. Whoa. And it's not, not that the show, not that I did not find the show interesting and well-made.

It was just a weird experience. So I recommend it for people who are looking for it in the right context. If, as you said, Ian, you want to see an interesting example of this kind of media from this time period. Mm-hmm. Really worth watching if you are raising. A child at that age, as long as you recognize that a middle schooler in 2025 is not necessarily the same as a middle schooler of that time period because the world is different, but people are still people, there's still a lot to learn, whether you're a kid.

[01:14:53] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:53] Matthew: Or you're a parent. I'd say anybody who's in those kinds of situations, I would absolutely recommend 

[01:14:59] Jennifer: it. Hmm. And that makes perfect sense. 

[01:15:00] Matthew: So I wouldn't give it a blanket recommendation, but it is a very strong example of what it is and has a great deal of value. 

[01:15:06] Jennifer: Yeah. It that makes sense.

[01:15:08] Matthew: So our next question is a tough one for this, but our next question is, revive, reboot, or Rest in Peace. And Revive means that it's a sequel or a prequel or something else in which the original is still canon. Mm-hmm. And Reboot is a brand new where we're gonna start fresh. We're gonna take this idea and redo it completely, and then of course, rest in peace is.

Let it be what it is. It might still be great, might be worth watching. We don't need to do something else with it. 

[01:15:37] Jennifer: So, oh, yeah. 

[01:15:39] Matthew: It sounds like you've got an 

[01:15:40] Jennifer: answer 

[01:15:41] Ian: this. Yeah, I, my wife is vibrating next to me in excitement to explain about this. 

[01:15:44] Jennifer: I, I need to talk about this because Lizzie was gonna tell me how to be a 30-year-old.

so Oh. So, right when Disney Plus was beginning, like when they were starting to just happen, one of their flagships was going to be a Lizzie McGuire, revival. Mm-hmm. Um, and so they've got the whole cast, the majority of the cast, not everybody was able to come back, but the people who were still acting and still around, including Hillary Duff to play Lizzie McGuire, 

[01:16:15] Ian: important, 

[01:16:17] Jennifer: Yes, very important! They filmed the first episode. And all that. We knew all that. All that we were told was that it had something to do. Like the whole plot was Lizzie had gone off to one of the big cities, created a career for herself, and then something happened, some big life something. And she ran back. Or not ran back, but she went back to her family to recalibrate and from whatever this thing was, and there's a lot of theories online, but nothing was verified as to what it was gonna be.

And we were, we were so excited. Everyone who grew up with Lizzie, there was a huge corner of the internet. Ecstatic. We got to see five seconds of Hillary as Lizzie in the promotional sign up for Disney Plus thing. Goodness. Like seriously, go see it. Like I, I love that moment. And then, something happened between what the executives wanted.

For the show and for , their property of Lizzie McGuire and what the creative director and Hillary wanted for the character. There was some sort of, disagreement that they haven't come out and said, exactly what it was. we do believe it was something to do with the, the, vision that the executives wanted for Disney Plus, like they wanted it to be super family friendly.

Hillary and the creative director wanted this to, address issues that adult,, 30-year-old women dealt with, in the 21st century. And there was some sort of friction, again, a lot of theories, but we don't know what it was. and it fell through. And so we will never see that pilot.

[01:18:00] Matthew: Oh, that's too bad. 

[01:18:00] Jennifer: And Hillary has now gone, like, every time she was asked before of a Lizzie reboot or Lizzie in high school, like, depending on how long it had been. Yeah. she'd always said, well, it's possible. You know, I, I would always love to. She's really come on record now and said, because of whatever happened between the studio herself and the creative directors, it's probably never gonna happen.

And I just weeped, oh, 

[01:18:23] Ian: they did such a good job when they were making the original series of showing Lizzie and her parents and the family being good people, but fallible people, people who are not perfect. 

[01:18:35] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[01:18:36] Ian: But I can definitely see Disney later on trying to establish this and with a brand that they've depicted for so many years with just this polished cartoon character version.

The idea of wanting to have the, the actual story have this perfect character version, but instead the creator wanting to show more of a, a realistic human who makes mistakes. That's a different balance. And no matter what the, the narrative of that original, I can see how that tension between the current era of Disney and the, the sensibilities of the early aughts original writing moved to the modern day would have such a, a friction.

[01:19:17] Matthew: Yeah. If there, if Disney executive's goal was to have Lizzie be as an adult, be this kind of pure and perfect person, that misses the point of the original show. It's about making mistakes and learning from them and growing from them. And the mistakes that are gonna be made by a 30-year-old are not the same as the mistakes that are going to be made mm-hmm.

By a, uh, a middle schooler. Yeah. So I, I can understand the difficulty in. Checking all the boxes and getting all the buy-in from the people who are, who need to give that buy-in. Taking something made for middle schoolers and then bringing that character into, uh, a believable life decades later. Yeah, it was, it's such an interesting idea.

Yeah. I can't think of any time that was ever done with a, a moralistic kid show of this type. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's, it's such an interesting idea. It's a shame they weren't able to make that work. 

[01:20:08] Jennifer: I know. I was supposed to learn how to be 30. No one taught me how to be 30. 

[01:20:13] Matthew: You figured it out. 

[01:20:14] Ian: You're fig, you're doing excellent at it.

[01:20:16] Jennifer: Like 

[01:20:17] Matthew: the things you learned from Lizzie still served you. 

[01:20:19] Jennifer: Yes. That's absolutely. So 

[01:20:21] Matthew: as interesting as that would've been, um, I would say now rest in peace. 

[01:20:28] Ian: Hmm. 

[01:20:29] Matthew: It's going to influence tv. I think it's going to influence good TV made for future generations of kids and that's as it should be. Mm-hmm. I don't think we need a remake of Lizzie McGuire for the 2020s With another cast.

[01:20:42] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:20:43] Matthew: Or anything like that. So given the fact that that really interesting idea for a revival didn't work, I would say rest in peace and it's all there on Disney Plus. 

[01:20:52] Ian: Yeah. There, I'm trying to think of what they even have options for, for doing a revival now that the, that one fell through and the only good option is kind of in a couple of years you could have Matt being the dad in a family.

That's a weird, that's a spinoff scenario. Yeah. It turns into a completely different show. Very different. 

[01:21:14] Matthew: The Matt McGuire Chronicles. 

[01:21:15] Ian: Yeah. 

[01:21:16] Matthew: Where he actually does really well in high school and he goes off to study physics at Pacific Tech. And No, wait a minute. That's real genius. 

[01:21:27] Ian: We did this episode months ago.

Whatcha doing dad? Oh my goodness. Um,

uh, in terms of, uh, reboot, yeah. You can't really recast these characters. This is a, this formula applies elsewhere. It does elsewhere. I think it's a rest in peace, but I'll say the odds and what this is, I can see DNA of the way Lizzie McGuire worked and was popular and impactful leading through into other Disney shows.

And in some ways the reason why the revival didn't work is that that has faded out as they've brought in other stuff. But for a long string, there's aspects of the way the Lizzie and this show was written. And I can see in some of those other heightened more ridiculous kids shows in some ways. There's elements of Lizzie McGuire that are in Kim, Possible, the animated series to some extent.

[01:22:28] Matthew: I can kind of see that 

[01:22:29] Ian: there's some elements of of it that are in the later shows. They produced for their live action this, this setup template that kept, they were able to keep going, but that template morphed and evolved over time. Mm. This is, by the time they were looking back to it, it didn't match anymore, and that's part of the problem.

So it's a rest in peace. But if you're looking for more, it's DNA is spread across the other shows that they had for, I'd say till the end of the aughts in that sense 

[01:22:59] Jennifer: and just. In case Hillary's watching this, I would still be way on board my whole life, like, I will always have a a place in my heart that, maybe you'll teach me how to be 40, you know?

Yeah. I would love to be taught how to be 40. and so there's always gonna be a part of me that's always hoping for it. the fact that again, she's come on record, that it probably won't happen. I've definitely, it's more the rest in peace because no one else can play these characters.

No one else can bring this to life. so I'll always have that little piece that I'm, I'll always be hoping, but I do think it is a rest in peace, sadly. 

[01:23:32] Ian: I, I really appreciate the compliment. We've got such a great a great celebrity audience listening to our podcast. Yeah. Yeah. this is really sweet actually.

Thank you. Thank you. You never 

[01:23:43] Jennifer: know. 

[01:23:44] Ian: You never know. I love it. 

[01:23:45] Matthew: I'd love to have you on for a bonus. You're listening. 

[01:23:49] Ian: That'd be great. We could do a weekend watching and he send us, send us an email. 

[01:23:52] Jennifer: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. 

[01:23:53] Matthew: Well, this was such a fun conversation. 

[01:23:55] Ian: This is a great one. 

[01:23:55] Matthew: It was so much fun watching these shows that I never, never would've discovered in a million years, so, 

[01:24:02] Jennifer: yay.

Well, we'll have to do more in the future. 

[01:24:04] Matthew: We will, and it's always fun. We, we usually get to talk about things that were important for me in my youth, or things that, that Ian grew up with. It's really interesting to, to learn about something that was so important to you at that age. Yeah. 

[01:24:15] Ian: For you, the audience of the Inter Millennium Media Project podcast, as our family grows, that just adds more perspectives that might be able to bring you media from their childhood.

Just as my, my childhood and my dad's childhood have fueled the podcast for all this. 

[01:24:31] Jennifer: Yep. 

[01:24:31] Matthew: Well, with that, we will be back in a couple of weeks with more tales from media from probably the 20th century, 

[01:24:39] Jennifer: otherwise known as ancient movies. 

[01:24:43] Ian: In the meantime, go find something new to watch.