[00:00:00] Intro: Hey. Hey. What do you got in there? My pajamas looks like high explosive pajamas to me. I've not to worry, old boy, been handling this stuff ever since I blew up the nursery with my first chemistry set Poor old nanny, I'm talking about the best construction engineers in the business. Well, they're probably experts at building things, whereas I'm an expert at blowing them up. [00:00:33] Matthew: Hello and welcome to another episode of the IMMP, the Inter Millennium Media Project podcast. My name is Matthew Porter. [00:00:42] Ian: And I'm Ian Porter. [00:00:43] Matthew: I'm his dad. He's my son. And we're keeping with our theme here for November. We're still fighting in World War ii. [00:00:52] Ian: Welcome back to Navarone Vember. [00:00:58] Matthew: So we are now, today we're gonna be talking about the long delayed sequel to the 1961 Blockbuster, the Guns of Navarone. [00:01:09] Ian: Talk about a gap, this, it goes from, this is from 1978. We've got 17 years between films. [00:01:20] Matthew: And we have some returning characters. It is a sequel and it takes place just a year or so after the Guns of Navarone. Yeah. But, uh, we, we don't have the returning cast. [00:01:34] Ian: No. We do not have that gap. Yeah. That gap led to some things. Yeah. [00:01:40] Matthew: Interesting story, and we can mi might get into more of this later. They were looking to make a sequel to the Guns of Navarone shortly after the original movie because it was so popular. [00:01:52] Ian: Makes sense. [00:01:53] Matthew: And, uh, they, the, the producer of Guns of Navarone commissioned, , Alistair McLean to write a sequel and he decided, he didn't wanna write a novel, so he wrote a, a screen treatment and they never could quite get that made. Until, 15 years later, they finally were getting some momentum to get it made. And what we get is Force 10 from Navarone. Of course, they've gotta get the word navarone in there. Yeah. To, to maintain the, the brand. [00:02:23] Ian: Yeah. So, so they're doing a sequel though. Is this about, uh, continuing the fight on the island of Navarone to liberate the entire island? Is this about the, the troops that were on those multiple ships that the destruction of the guns allowed to actually escape? [00:02:42] Matthew: No. [00:02:42] Ian: Oh, no, no, no. [00:02:44] Matthew: Not at all. It is the further adventures of Major Mallory, and now Sergeant Miller. The explosives expert, [00:02:55] Ian: they Thin Man us. [00:02:56] Matthew: Yes, they did. [00:02:59] Ian: Oh my goodness. They thin man. Us. [00:03:01] Matthew: I guess if these two guys are known as the, the, the guys who blew up the guns of Navarone, the rest of the army is gonna think of them as those guys from Navarone. [00:03:09] Ian: Yeah. They are the navarone known guys. Now it does give the, the two of them had an interesting rapport earlier on in the original film of being kind of two sides of this, coin. For an operation. But now that they've gotten all the bonding done from the first film, it's almost a buddy team thrown into a different, action film. [00:03:37] Matthew: It is, it's a very different tone. The, the original movie, it got darker in many ways, and we did have before that, that final act, that really harsh confrontation between Mallory and Miller and Mallory calling Miller out. As you know, you just want to, not have any responsibility. You just want to kind of play your way through this war and blow things up, and you've gotta make decisions and you've gotta step up. , but then they do, and they, they barely survive their mission and that's certainly gonna create some bond there. [00:04:08] Ian: And they are being played by completely different actors, but honestly they're doing a good job keeping a continuity here. [00:04:17] Matthew: They do. They don't make the mistake of attempting to do. A Gregory Peck impression or a David Niven impression. They're playing the same characters, but they're new actors playing those characters. [00:04:28] Ian: Yes. [00:04:28] Matthew: So we've got Robert Shaw playing Major Mallory. Yeah. And we've got Edward Fox playing Miller and Miller still refuses to be an officer, but he's accepted a promotion to Sergeant now and he still [00:04:45] Ian: refuses to be, uh, an officer, but we already get to see a little bit of the two of them having impacted the other. Yes, Mallory is walking around doing training, but he's got a, a cane. He's relaxed a little. He's actually taking a breath. [00:05:04] Matthew: He is. There was some indication, when they first meet, which I gather is the first time in a while, Miller asks Mallory, how's the leg doing? So somewhere along the line he picked up an injury. Maybe it was as they escaped from Navarone. Maybe it was some other mission in between. But yeah, he's been like the, the in command of some training base and helping decide the meal schedules. And obviously he's resting, but he's not necessarily happy doing it. [00:05:32] Ian: Yeah. Meanwhile, when Miller shows up, the comment is that he's been working with the explosives lab for the military. He didn't get out of this or, or leave. He's like, okay, I've got skills and I'm needed. Yep. And he's gone somewhere to make things to help the war. That's, uh, a shift of. Focus [00:05:55] Matthew: it is. He was a chemistry professor before the war, and now he's a chemistry professor in service of the, the war effort. [00:06:02] Ian: Mm-hmm. It's, but it's a, it's a, it's an interesting look because it starts them out closer together. [00:06:09] Matthew: Yeah. [00:06:10] Ian: Both mentality and as friends [00:06:13] Matthew: though. Interesting. That's, that, that, that meeting isn't the first shot we get of these guys. I don't know if, if you noticed at the very end they have this pretty good, pretty concise recap of the guns of Navarone at the opening of this movie. And they reshoot these characters on the deck of the British destroyer as they're being, uh, extracted from Navarone and they reshoot it with the actors playing the characters in this movie. It's a nice, nice little way to create the continuity. [00:06:45] Ian: That was fun. I really didn't expect this movie to start out with last time on Navarone. [00:06:53] Matthew: It really did. And they were very careful about the shots that they selected for their montage, uh, in the recap, not to show Gregory Peck or David Niven, such that you could recognize them, but they did choose good shots. To give you a sense of the, the style, the energy, and the mission on the first movie. [00:07:12] Ian: Absolutely. And I also noticed something immediately just the difference in camera work between the two. we talked about the camera work in Guns of Navarone plenty. Yeah. But the cinematography and the, the way you sh you show a movie what a movie looks like in those 17 years, changed so much. [00:07:33] Matthew: Yes. The filmmaking is different. The way they, the, of course the cameras and lenses they had were, were different and the color, but also the style in which films were made was very different. [00:07:46] Ian: Yes. So that sort of change over time really, really impacts the narrative. [00:07:56] Matthew: And yet at the same time, even in the late seventies, there was something kind of old fashioned about this movie, it being a sequel to a movie from 17 years earlier, it being a World War II movie, when World War II movies were not the big thing that they were in the, the sixties. [00:08:13] Ian: Yeah. [00:08:15] Matthew: There was still a big audience for them. It still did very well, but it was, it felt kind of like a bit of nostalgia making a movie like this. [00:08:25] Ian: I was kind of amused because stylistically, and we're gonna do a lot of comparison, I admit. [00:08:31] Matthew: Oh, no question. [00:08:31] Ian: That's just gonna be a, a basic part of this stylistically, force 10 from Navarone is a much darker, movie. Hmm. When it comes to the gr to the visuals. Oh. The night scenes are heavy and dense. Yeah. But the writing has a little bit more. pep and energy. Yeah. Than, than the guns of navarone. It's, it's a flip . Bright outdoor landscapes, dark , mental, mindset versus, you know, a forest that is hard to see, especially on a modern video, copy of it. And yet characters with a lot brighter of personalities. [00:09:15] Matthew: It's interesting to think about this movie. It almost feels like an, an early peek at what eighties movies were going to be like. [00:09:24] Ian: Oh yes, very much so. [00:09:27] Matthew: Yeah, because in into the seventies we started getting darker. You know, the grittier movies featuring anti-heroes and the like, and even war movies sort of picked that up. And we got starting in the, in 1970 and going forward, the more absurdist commentary sort of war movies like Catch 22 or even things like Kelly's Heroes and, and What Did You Do in the War, Daddy?, some of these movies I'm gonna have to show you. But then that sort of turns around into the eighties and this late seventies movie is kind of a prelude to that. It's a more positive, looking back fondly on the past and, and what our boys managed to accomplish. [00:10:07] Ian: It's an action film in a specific phrase of action film more than it is a war film in that sense. [00:10:15] Matthew: Yes. And we do have another. Cast member who we haven't mentioned yet who was also involved in some of that change in tone of movies, popular movies. Oh yeah. From the seventies into the eighties because the other main cast member is playing an American colonel name's Barnsby. And that is played by Harrison Ford. [00:10:37] Ian: Yeah, that was, he looks kind of out of place, honestly. [00:10:43] Matthew: Oh, you think so? [00:10:44] Ian: There was something about I, Harrison Ford is a fun actor. But especially for some reason, young Harrison Ford can look very lost. Sometimes there's something, especially when he first walks in, that feels like Harrison Ford wandered in from the wrong set for a moment. It's like, you know, I know I'm, I'm braced to go do the holiday special that comes out the next year after this. Why am I in this room? [00:11:16] Matthew: Yeah. The casting for this movie was done in October of 1977. So they were casting Harrison Ford just months after Star Wars exploded as a blockbuster that summer. [00:11:28] Ian: Yeah. [00:11:29] Matthew: And he has said that he, he will, he wanted to choose this because it was such a different character and he didn't want to just be doing Han Solo. I'm sure by then he was already signed up to do sequels and things. Mm-hmm. And I can understand that. I think it was a good move. Um, you know, he may or may not have fit this movie, but it worked for him, I think. [00:11:47] Ian: Yeah. There is more of the Harrison Ford you would see in things, like, weirdly enough, uh, blade Runner, now I'm thinking, oh, which, which movie? There was, there was a specific movie that this immediately hit me with. It's like, oh. , a little bit of the Air Force one kind of some things that you'd see in older. [00:12:12] Matthew: Yeah. [00:12:13] Ian: Harrison Ford. There's that, that gruff and frustrated Harrison Ford instead of the Slick Harrison Ford with a smile. This is the, I'm getting through this. Harrison Ford. Yeah. And, and that's important. [00:12:32] Matthew: And his youth does fit with the story because just as the first movie, it had conflict among the team with the difference between somebody who is serious and duty bound like Mallory and somebody who's flippant and only here because he has to be like Miller. Yes. Uh, in this movie, we have conflict between the American, commando force, which is, which, that is what Force 10 is. Force 10 is the group that's being led by Harrison Ford's character. And then we have the two British, soldiers, the officer and the Non-com Miller and and and Mallory who have their own mission, who are tagging along to get to Yugoslavia because that's where this commando group is headed. And there's the conflict between the Brits and the Americans. Definitely the conflict between the young and the old as, as. The colonel is being told that you've got these two British guys who are, gonna be, taking a ride with you. He is very against this and this is gonna jeopardize our mission. And just looking up and down at, uh, at Mallory, he's saying, you know, all of our guys are young and in top physical condition. I'm not sure these guys can keep up. Yes. And Mallory says something like, you know what? We, you know, we, we do have a cons, considerable amount of experience. And the response is, uh, yes. I'm sure you do a lot of shade being Yes. There. [00:14:02] Ian: It makes the name make a lot more sense for this film that from In Force 10 from Navarone is a lot more like a musical artist with a featuring tag. It's like, this is a Force 10 track, and there's a guest verse from Navarone True on it in that weird little, you know, mashup kind of nature. And, and it, it sets this up, you know, Harrison Ford's got his own team with a completely separate mission. Mallory and Miller are being sent along with them and that. That gives us that initial, conflict, which will get exacerbated repeatedly over the course of this. [00:14:45] Matthew: And the mission that Miller and Mallory are on also has a connection back to the original movie. Mm-hmm. Because in the original movie, there was a suspected German spy. [00:14:58] Ian: Yes. [00:14:59] Matthew: And, and that never became a big deal in the movie, though. It was, you know, there was suspicion as to the fact that this is how the Germans later infiltrated their mission in this movie. Supposedly that person now being played by Franco Nero, very different actor than played it in the first movie. [00:15:20] Ian: Yeah. [00:15:21] Matthew: Has, has gone on to infiltrate, the Yugoslav partisan forces. Highly placed in those forces, but is a German spy and the German intelligence and feeding information back to them. And since they're the only people around who have actually seen this guy and can make a positive id, they are being sent to meet up with the partisan forces and find this guy and eliminate him if they confirm that, yeah, this is the spy. Exactly. So nothing to do with the, the mission that Force 10 is on. [00:15:56] Ian: Nothing to do with it, but the fact that they're going to towards the same place means doing it together works. They kind of cover for each other. Harrison, Ford's Barnsby doesn't Barnsby, doesn't think they're covering at all. But [00:16:12] Matthew: no, [00:16:12] Ian: I love the little bit where it's like there standoff to the side and don't get in the way. And then Mallory and Miller just tag team, take down a guy as he comes around the side of the truck and they're leaning back against the truck again. Waiting. [00:16:26] Matthew: Yeah, they're, they, they start out so strangely because they start out as if this is an, an unauthorized mission because there's some intelligence breach at the Italian airfield from, which they're taking off for Yugoslavia. And because that's the point at which the three other attempts at this mission have been blown. They are cutting through , the fence and essentially making it look like they're stealing a plane and not taking an authorized, properly logged flight. And yet that is interrupted by a bunch of, uh, mps who. Quite reasonably decide to stop the guys who look like they're trying to steal a plane. [00:17:05] Ian: Yeah. Uh, and of course the mps aren't there for no reason, though. They're bringing someone along with, or there's someone with them. [00:17:13] Matthew: Yeah. There's like six i six or seven mps and one prisoner that they're transporting or one, uh, detaining. Yeah. Played by Carl Weathers, who one de we later learn is Sergeant Weaver. [00:17:26] Ian: Yes. It's such a weird thing because it means , Carl Weathers character Weaver here gets in and takes out some of the mps and then hops onto the plane with them. [00:17:38] Matthew: I just helped you beat up a half a dozen mps. I'm not gonna stay behind with all the, the, the unconscious, uh, police officers I'm getting on this plane. And yet, do we ever learn why. Uh, uh, Weaver had been arrested. [00:17:53] Ian: We don't, [00:17:54] Matthew: yeah, maybe it had to do with beating up other mps. That's why they had six or seven of them in the truck with him. [00:18:00] Ian: Those are Royal Air Force? [00:18:02] Matthew: No, I think that's an American base. [00:18:04] Ian: That's an American base they're using. Yeah. Okay. That's what I wasn't sure. It's like, is this an American base holding an American, uh, Sergeant? Yeah. Or is this, uh, an allied base of a different type? [00:18:16] Matthew: Yeah, because the whole, the whole Force 10 mission had been set up with, uh, as an American operation with Barnsby's group. So yeah, those were definitely American mps and their prisoner and yeah, we don't know what it was. We do find out that he was in, he's Army Medical Corps. Although throughout the movie we see him do a lot more knife fighting than Field first aid. Yeah, [00:18:40] Ian: he is. He is super, super knife styled. Yes. [00:18:48] Matthew: And it's a good role for Carl Weathers. He is a, a good actor. It, he career I think was ultimately limited by his being so identified with his character from the Rocky movies. Yeah. Uh, but it's so, it's good to see him in other roles and getting to do a bit more. [00:19:05] Ian: He gets to have fun. 'cause there in later things he's shown to be a, a third perspective, I almost want say Yep. If Barnsby is focused in this way. Mallory and Miller have this, I've done this before, kind of attitude. Weaver gets to be our, what are you thinking? Kind of voice of freneticism, which is to some extent the role Miller used to have to some, uh, in the previous film. [00:19:37] Matthew: Yeah. There is a bit of that. Yeah. And so he's an audience surrogate in that way, in that he's tagging along. He was not prepared for this, but here he is. [00:19:44] Ian: And that helps him be part of the, the back and forth and it makes the pairing up with each of them. Um, Weaver Plus Mallory equals, uh, you know, I'm certain in what I'm doing. Uh, you know, Weaver Plus Barnsby equals, I don't like you. Well I don't like you, but I respect you. I respect you back. And Miller Plus Weaver just equals a. Don't you look at all this happening over there. What's going on? [00:20:14] Matthew: Yeah. There is later on this great, uh, scene where Weaver and Miller are, are chatting about how things have gone wrong and No, we'll, we'll, uh, it, it, it'll somehow turn out and Miller says, don't worry. We Sergeants will see them through. Exactly. And that gets an amen from Weaver. [00:20:30] Ian: Like the two of them become drinking buddies immediately, even with nothing to toast. Yep. [00:20:38] Matthew: And originally Mallory and Miller's mission and the Force 10 Mission, they had nothing to do with one another. Mallory and Miller were just hitching a ride. They were gonna get to Yugoslavia on this plane and they were gonna meet up the partisans and Force 10 was gonna go off and do their mission. Yeah. And that doesn't work out because their plane is attacked by German fighters. Most of this commando team that Barnsby was leading dies in that, that fight. And the, the subsequent crash, it's [00:21:12] Ian: kind of, it's bewildering just like it is. Oh, here's our team. Don't remember half of them. Don't worry. [00:21:20] Matthew: All these tough, equipped, American, commandos and most of them are gone just because of the way their plane gets shot up. Yeah. [00:21:31] Ian: Uh, I realized something was gonna happen thanks to the staging, actually. [00:21:36] Matthew: Oh yeah. [00:21:37] Ian: Because they've got them in the plane and there's half, most of the commanders are in this upper area, and then we've got a foreground with, with our four main leads here, and I'm like. Why are they, they separated in this like focal plane? I'm not talking about structurally, I'm talking cinematically. Why is there such a clear delineation to separate them spatially? [00:22:03] Matthew: Oh, it's like one of those shots in anime where you've got our main characters and then in the back you've got a whole bunch of ovals that represent all the other people. [00:22:11] Ian: Exactly. There, there's something about a war movie being able to do the, like, okay, let's reestablish our characters by picking everybody of the crew back up in the woods. [00:22:23] Matthew: That's right. [00:22:24] Ian: I feel like I've seen that, that is like a trope somewhere else. But they get to do it here where e ach of them land in a different place. We get to cut away and then they kind of gather back up together. [00:22:37] Matthew: And there are not many survivors. There's Mallory and Miller. Mm-hmm. There's Barnsby and another member of his, uh, group, I forget his rank, but he is named Doug. I remember that. And there's Weaver. Yeah. So it's just the five of them remaining. [00:22:54] Ian: Um, that the, the, the, the remaining member. Funnily enough though, that is Angus McInnis, who a lot of people would recognize as gold leader from Star Wars. So the people from Force 10, who, who survive are the people who have been in Star Wars. [00:23:16] Matthew: You've proven yourself in a prior blockbuster. So we won't kill you off in the first act of this movie [00:23:21] Ian: Exactly. [00:23:23] Matthew: Because we've got Robert Shaw who was in Jaws. [00:23:26] Ian: Yes. Uh, what had Edward Fox been in before [00:23:32] Matthew: this? What had Edward Fox been in? That is a great question. [00:23:38] Ian: A bridge too far. [00:23:39] Matthew: Oh, a bridge too far. Yeah, that was another one of those kind of very seventies sort of war movies. [00:23:46] Ian: Oh. And he had been in an episode of the Avengers TV series. Cool. Hey, very nice. So, but no, I think, I think it's, you know, you've been in Blockbuster user. He [00:23:56] Matthew: played the jackal in Day of the Jackal. That was his blockbuster. Oh, [00:24:01] Ian: that was his Blockbuster. So, so yeah, if you, if you've been in a previous blockbuster, you'll survive this plane crash. [00:24:07] Matthew: Yep. [00:24:08] Ian: That works. [00:24:09] Matthew: So now we've got, uh, we've got Mallory and Miller still there to do their mission, but we've got not enough people and also not all the equipment that Force 10 had to complete their mission. Yeah. 'cause their mission was to destroy a bridge. There was a bridge that the Nazis were about to use to cross over into an area that had been controlled by the anti-fascist partisan forces in Yugoslavia. And this bridge was going to, now that they had the, the Nazis had amassed enough of their forces on the other side of the bridge. This bridge was gonna allow them to come over and take total control of the area. And those partisan forces were being led by the people that Mallory and Miller had to con connect with, because that's where the spy had infiltrated. So these two missions sort of begin to combine. Yeah, they are supposed to deliver Mallory and Miller to the partisans, and they do that. We meet up with the partisan group, and that doesn't go all that well. [00:25:20] Ian: That has some trouble because they get, they, they think they arrive with them. [00:25:26] Matthew: Yes. And their leader is, uh, is Richard Keil, who you probably recognize. [00:25:34] Ian: I thought I did from somewhere. [00:25:38] Matthew: Imagine him with here. [00:25:38] Ian: Do I reckon [00:25:39] Matthew: imagine him with steel teeth? [00:25:42] Ian: Oh, it's him. Yes it is. Oh goodness. How did I not recognize him [00:25:47] Matthew: previously discussed in the IMMP in the James Bond movie, the Spy Who Loved Me. He played Jaws. [00:25:55] Ian: Yes. [00:25:57] Matthew: And we also meet the other, leader of this group played by Barbara Bach, who you might also recognize from the Spy Who Loved Me. As the Russian spy. Oh yeah. Or the Russian spy who teams up with James Bond, [00:26:12] Ian: A little reunion, spy, what's going on here? [00:26:17] Matthew: But yeah, it turns out that even though they, they meet up with the, the group and they, um, they introduce themselves as the partisan forces fighting the Germans and lead them back to their base. Turns out that's not who they are. They are another group who are aligned with the Germans. [00:26:34] Ian: Yeah. They are a, a group of, um, uh, Chetniks, I believe. Yes. Who are pretending to be. It's, it's the, it's the rare instance when the bad guys pull the, uh, use the other people's uniform trick. Yes. It's usually a, a thing our good guys do to get into a base, but this is a, what if the base is full of people wearing opposite uniforms and fake out our heroes, the distinct scene of everyone laughing and turning their hats around, right? [00:27:14] Matthew: Yeah. It's, it's, it's like they, oh gee, if only we had seen any one of these people from behind, we would have been suspicious of the other badge on the other side of their hat. [00:27:26] Ian: And, they spin a tail. they spin it very well. There's something in my mind of, both Mallory and Miller flashing back, to Stavros and his immediate story. [00:27:39] Matthew: Yes. Yeah. I think they learned a trick from him immediately come up with a tall tale that we can just commit to, to confuse the Germans, because they talk about being not, we're not spies or commandos. We're deserters. We're trying to get away from the allies because we stole a whole bunch of penicillin from them. Hey, you ever heard about penicillin? It's great stuff and it's worth a lot in the black market. Hence our stealing it. [00:28:03] Ian: It's in this case over here. Yeah. Looks at the case. Miller has, and of course we know that's Miller that's full of boom. Don't, don't open it. That'll ruin the penicillin. They open it, it's full of logs. Confusing everybody. [00:28:24] Matthew: They have no idea why it is full of firewood, but they say, oh, that's, um, that's because we, uh, we, we buried the actual stuff. We didn't wanna risk it. Bring, bring it close to here. So, uh, if you, uh, let us go out and we'll dig it up for you. [00:28:39] Ian: Very quick thinking. Very fun. I love the fact that Mallory and Miller are just having a scene straight out of the previous film to some extent, and we get to watch Weaver and Barnsby look confused and try to tag along on that. They catch on. But there's this fun moment of, of watching the two new characters. Catch up to the previous plot in that sense. [00:29:07] Matthew: And there is this air of, especially with Mallory and Miller, we are probably not going to survive this, so we might as well have a little fun, see if we can mess with the Germans for a bit. [00:29:16] Ian: Yes. The more time we waste, the more time, someone else, has to do something good. [00:29:23] Matthew: But , the German commander of this base, decides okay, we're gonna let them, we're gonna send Maritza the chene leader who he's also having an affair with. Uh, bring them out to where they buried the stuff so they can, and, and a couple of guards with, with guns, of course, and have them dig up this valuable stuff and bring it back to me. So I'll have this little nest egg for after the war. And they send Mallory and Barnsby to do this. And that works out better than expected because not only do they have a plan to get the drop on the guards and escape, but Maritza helps them because she turns out she was a spy who had infiltrated the German base. [00:30:06] Ian: And there's a little bit of a, well great, I've had to waste my being a spy for you, but at least you can get outta here. Go go meet up with my contact. I do love the confusion on their part. They're, they're like, okay, lure everyone close together and then, and then hit 'em. And then as everyone gets lured together, they drop to the floor as gunshots ring out. And all of the people they were about to hit fall dead. [00:30:32] Matthew: Yes. [00:30:33] Ian: It's just a, what happened? [00:30:39] Matthew: So Maritza's gonna go back to the base with some story about, the prisoners getting the drop on them and, and being able to escape. And she's leaving them to go make, contact with the actual partisans she's been working with [00:30:53] Ian: So now we've got kind of that split in the crew. Mallory and Barnsby are heading off and they meet up. Miller and Weaver are still stuck there. Yes. [00:31:03] Matthew: And Doug can't forget about Doug [00:31:06] Ian: and Doug. Yeah. Yep. And Doug, [00:31:12] Matthew: So they do actually meet up with the, with the genuine Yugoslav partisan forces. They meet up with the guy they've been sent to identify and eliminate. Yeah. He's now going by Captain Leskovar among the, the partisans. But he is, does look like the Nikolai that they're sent there to, to take out. But the looks a [00:31:33] Ian: lot like the Nikolai, [00:31:34] Matthew: the partisan, leader. he says, well, obviously, you know, you've, he, they, they tell him, you know, this guy, we've been sent to find this guy and, and, and, uh, kill him because he's a spy. And the leader explains that you, this is almost adorable. There was another guy going by the same name. We identified him as a spy. We killed him months ago. British intelligence was apparently not up to date on this stuff, but this guy's my right hand man. I'm uh, you, you have nothing to worry about. Yeah. So they continue to work with him throughout this, most of this movie, not knowing whether he's really the, the spy, I think strongly suspecting he's really the spy, but having had this story about yeah, another person being the real spy. [00:32:19] Ian: So it's kind of an odd setup there, but it's what they've got here. It's, oh, we're here to, we're here to kill your Captain Leskovar. No, we've had a Captain Leskovar. We had to kill one of them. This is the good one. [00:32:31] Matthew: Okay. I, I like how, how. Mallory rolls with the way they do business here. He wants to talk to the partisan general, alone. If, if, if I may sir. And the response is no. In the people's, army, we do not operate in secret. You can talk to me right here with my officers around me. He says, okay, this guy's a spy and we've been sent to kill it. Oh, do you hear that he's been sent to kill you? [00:32:55] Ian: It's kind of hilarious, but it works well. [00:33:01] Matthew: But the problem now is that the, the partisans have been counting on this mission from the allies to take out this bridge so that the Germans can't roll in and retake this part of the country. And now they, they don't have the men that they need, and more important, they don't have the equipment they need all of the explosives and things they simply don't have. To which Mallory responds. Yeah, but I know a guy. [00:33:28] Ian: Yeah. It's like, oh, you need explosives. We gotta go get Miller. Oh, where is he? Oh, over in the Chetniks camp as a prisoner. Well, that's not useful. Yeah. [00:33:38] Matthew: So, so he's dead. You're telling me But then we get the next part of the movie is the, the rescue mission. Mm-hmm. Where, where Barnsby, and Mallory and Nikolai slash Leskovar, the spy and a couple of other Yeah. Other men, uh, from their team go back to infiltrate the, uh, the che camp and rescue their imprisoned comrades. And this is one of the, continuity mistakes between the movies that really di really disappointed me. [00:34:12] Ian: Aho. [00:34:13] Matthew: The reason why Leskovar says you've gotta take me is that. Neither you've, you've gotta infiltrate this place. Neither of you speak German. And I do. So you need me in this, in the guns of Navarone, they made very, very clear. One of the main reasons Mallory was recruited for that mission was that he speaks German, like a German. He is native fluency in German. And here they just totally ignore that and undo that. They didn't need to in order to get Leskovar onto this team. I think that was just sloppy. [00:34:50] Ian: I kind of would, was hoping during all of that, that it was going to be a Okay. And Mallory was going to reveal his understanding of German as a way to catch Leskovar later? [00:35:02] Matthew: Yes. That would've been better if it was, uh, if it was a mistake on Leskovar's part [00:35:09] Ian: because, 'cause that was presented by Leskovar as like a reason to send me. It's like that could have been so much better. Yeah. If, if it was a, a fake out because it would've meant that people who had seen the other navarone would've been, you know, wait a minute. And people who hadn't could have been caught by surprise. Yeah. But they honestly don't ever app approve, like, do anything with that. [00:35:31] Matthew: There's even a scene later in which they make it kind of clear that neither Miller nor Mallory understand German as they are. Yeah. They're in German uniforms infiltrating a German supply depot to get things that they need and trying to muddle through, given the fact that they can't really read what's on these crates and they can't understand what people are telling them. [00:35:54] Ian: But yeah, no, Mallory should have immediately known which crates he should have been able to ask someone. It could have been. It's one of those, it's, it's the, yeah, it's the major dropped ball of this film. I'll say. [00:36:05] Matthew: I, I agree. And, you know. I would hope that they had watched the first movie a few times while preparing this movie. But as big as it is, if it's the one major continuity error in movies 17 years apart, I can deal with that. , but they do eventually get back to the, the Chet Nick base and there is a, uh, a pretty cool scene in which they infiltrate that base by. It was, it's kind of like right out of Star Wars because there are two of the, um, Chetniks who were really spies for the partisans whose faces were always bandaged. Yeah. They have two other partisans put bandages on their face, pretend to have arrested, uh, Mallory and Barnsby and bring them back. But it's like the putting on the storm trooper outfits and pretending to have arrested Chewbacca. [00:37:05] Ian: Very much so. [00:37:08] Matthew: I'm imagining, uh, Harrison Ford saying, wait a minute, I've got an idea. This worked once. [00:37:14] Ian: You're a little short to be a che. [00:37:16] Matthew: Well, Richard Keil is an example. That's, uh, definitely true. [00:37:21] Ian: Exactly. Oh goodness. They get it in there. But this is where unfortunately we lose Lieutenant Doug. [00:37:30] Matthew: We do. [00:37:32] Ian: He gets shot. [00:37:33] Matthew: Get old pathos Doug. He does not survive. [00:37:37] Ian: Pathos dog sounds like a character of a Western. [00:37:44] Matthew: It does. It does. [00:37:49] Ian: So our team gets back together with a mission now Yeah. Of, uh, blowing up this bridge because theoretically Miller and Mallory's mission is done [00:38:03] Matthew: and their escape, their, their second escape from the, the Chene camp is kind of fun because they, one of the German officers that they killed during their escape, they kind of weekend at Bernie's him. Yeah. Propping him up in a car, holding up his elbow so that he salutes on his way out. And that's how they get the, the guards to open up the gates so they can leave with all of their team plus, Miller's, suitcase of exploding tricks, which it turns out that, Maritza had been the one who had swapped his real explosives for the firewood and she now put it back, so they bundle her up and bring her along as well. Of course. [00:38:42] Ian: That's where, I mean, this film feels sillier because of moments like that. It's that inversion, you know, dark caves and hallways and night scenes that are hard to see and yet lighter in terms of tone. [00:38:59] Matthew: Yeah. The silliest thing we get in guns of Navarone might be Anthony Quinn pretending to be a Cypriot fisherman who was forced into this by these guys and being so histrionic about it. [00:39:11] Ian: There is a film that Force 10 reminded me of a lot more than I expected it to. Yeah. That I'll bring up at the end. Oh. But this is one of those moments that hit me of like, wait a minute, this feels differently. Familiar, [00:39:26] Matthew: interesting. [00:39:27] Ian: So, they're heading off and they get to the bridge. They get, they, we get a, a navarone trip. [00:39:35] Matthew: Yeah. Because now Miller and Mallory, they're fully committed to helping Barnsby complete his mission of blowing up this bridge. Especially now that they've been there and they see what's at stake. Yes. And their mission to deal with the spy is kind of on hold at the moment. Exactly. [00:39:53] Ian: They haven't, they haven't immediately taken that this Leskovar is the Okay. One. He looks a lot like the Leskovar they were here to kill. Yes. but they need more explosive to do anything, I believe. Or is they check the bridge first, right? Well, they, I'm trying to remember the [00:40:12] Matthew: order. They, before they went back to get Miller, they were also making plans to get a supply drop from the British with all of the equipment that Force 10 was supposed to have. All of the explosives that they had planned out from studying this bridge, this is what we need to take out, this bridge. And then, then they'll have Miller, who will be the expert in placing it and deploying it and using it. So while they're waiting for, for that drop of, of supplies, they bring Miller to check out the bridge and Miller says, uh, no, this is not gonna work. Yeah. Have you actually looked at this bridge, how it's built, how the pilings are set? Uh, what, what the, um. The abutments are like, I, I know what you, what you're gonna be getting, what all this equipment and explosives are gonna be. And I'm telling you, as an expert in blowing things up, it's not enough. You might bend a few things and scorch some paint, but you are not gonna take out this bridge with that manifest of supplies you told me you're getting. It's just not possible. We would need a whole lot more and we would need about eight hours in which to deploy it, and we don't have either of those. [00:41:21] Ian: Right. The amount of force it would take to bring down a bridge, this sturdy, because it's a, it's a, uh, solid steel bridge with concrete basing in a dry river bed. Yes. You know, they've spanning this area and they have a lot of reinforcement there. A lot of solid weight at the bottom to keep it from tipping. Yeah. [00:41:48] Matthew: Huge pilings put right into bedrock. [00:41:51] Ian: But wait a minute, that's a river bed. [00:41:55] Matthew: Yes. And Mallory has a question for Miller. [00:42:00] Ian: Yeah. What about the dam up river? [00:42:05] Matthew: Okay. You say explosives can't do it. What would happen to that bridge if it was suddenly hit by several million tons of water? What are you talking about? Well, there's that dam, right? Two and a half miles away. [00:42:18] Ian: And, and, and it's kind of funny 'cause it's this, it, it's another instance of Miller. Miller and Mallory being so wonderfully British in the face of these two Americans were, you know, no, we got the mission says the Americans. Oh, you can't do that. Well, what about that, the two Americans? What in the world is going on here? [00:42:40] Matthew: It reminded me from a little bit in the original, British, scrap heap challenge. What became Junkyard Wars? Yes. Where a guy has a welding accident asks his teammate, can I have a glass of water, please? Oh, how much? Uh, uh, enough to put a fire out. [00:42:56] Ian: Oh, where would you like it? [00:42:57] Matthew: Well, on the flames, please. [00:42:59] Ian: Exactly. It's very much that same weird, uh, not weird, but like that, that like contextual British politeness about wonderfully, [00:43:08] Matthew: the situation. Wonderfully. He's understated. And yet, yet, Miller totally brightens up what he hears about this. A dam, why didn't you say we had a dam, I could do a wonderful things with a dam. And by wonderful things he means destroy it utterly with the equipment they've got. [00:43:22] Ian: Exactly I could do. Wonderful thi and this is where Barnsby gets to have this like, okay, I can change the mission parameters and Weaver weaver's response of the what? I'm the audience surrogate. What in the world's happening gets to shine through and, and this little not trio quadro get to get to show their their personalities. So well, [00:43:51] Matthew: so now their plan is, okay, we're gonna get this airdrop of supplies from the British, we're gonna use that on the dam instead of on the bridge. And as long as the timing is right, such that we can take out the bridge before the Germans get their tanks and troops across, will have saved this part of Yugoslavia. Yeah. So they're waiting for this drop and that does not go well because guess what? There's a spy in the partisan group. [00:44:17] Ian: Wait a minute, [00:44:17] Matthew: Leskovar is Nikolai. Surprise. Surprise. Yeah. [00:44:23] Ian: Congratulations. Major Petrovic. Ya got the wrong Leskovar. Yes. [00:44:30] Matthew: And uh, and Maritza is the one who discovers this, but she does not survive to tell anyone else. [00:44:37] Ian: No. Yeah. All they know is that [00:44:38] Matthew: their mission was blown. And instead of the British supply plane, they get some German attack planes who take out huge numbers of the partisan forces who were there waiting for the drop. [00:44:51] Ian: So now they've got a dam to explode and nothing to explode it with, but, [00:44:57] Matthew: but this is Miller and Mallory. They're not gonna give up. [00:45:01] Ian: Yeah. So [00:45:03] Matthew: who might have blowy up things? [00:45:07] Ian: What about those Germans we're here to mess with? [00:45:09] Matthew: Yes. And that's where they have to then go infiltrate a German supplied depo and get the, uh, the equipment they need. They get a whole bunch of like, things like there was a specific kind of mine that Miller knew the Germans had that he needed. And it turns out later we see that it's because he can take the explosives out of those and pack them in a way that allows them to, uh, set them at the dam. Yeah. But, and this is the scene where Mallory and Miller don't know German, so they have to follow, Leskovar's lead. And this also is the point at which they manage to escape, or most of them do. And one of Leskovar's, you know, guys don't make it and they realize and call out Leskovar, you're really Nikolai, you're really the spy. [00:46:06] Ian: I love the way they figure it out though. Because they've grabbed uniforms and they're watching as Leskovar, you know, sends, someone in the wrong direction. Air quotes. He tells our heroes here that he's going to go get someone to leave him alone, buy him some time. And he's really saying, I've trapped these, these agents over here. Go get me some armed men. Yeah. [00:46:29] Matthew: He identifies himself as a, an officer, high ranking officer in the German intelligence unit. play it. Cool. But go get some men. So we can take these, allied Commandos out of this, train [00:46:41] Ian: and the German that he talks to salutes him and runs off to do it. And it's Mallory. It's Mallory saying. You're not wearing the right uniform to be saluted. Yeah. You're [00:46:52] Matthew: wear, you're, you're dressed as a corporal that does not raise a salute in anyone's army. [00:46:58] Ian: That that is such a clever, fun detail as to how they find him out. It's, you know, no, no, no. You don't get saluted wearing that uniform. That means I know. [00:47:10] Matthew: Mm-hmm. And the Leskovar tries to pass it. Well, maybe he just recognized my innate superiorities. He saluted me by reflex. No, no, no. Not gonna happen. [00:47:21] Ian: No, no, no. Uh, it, and, and you get to see in that moment where, that's the moment where Barnsby really starts to look at Mallory as, oh, he has that skill. He is a, he is a man. I could like, there's that, that little moment of respect where the American. The American lieutenant Colonel sees this British major and says, okay, you're not just you, you, you guys have helped a lot. And this was that final piece of the, now I respect you entirely. Yeah. [00:47:58] Matthew: This guy really is a badass. And that experience I was making fun of, that counts for a lot. [00:48:04] Ian: Mm-hmm. Because from here out, you know, Barnsby will hold bags, carry stuff, and if Mallory says, run that way. Yeah. Barnsby's running in that direction. No words extra [00:48:16] Matthew: That's true and that's important because in that last act of the movie, Barnsby, and Mallory are a team because they're the ones who take the explosives that Miller prepared and bring them into the dam. And it's a little odd that Miller's not the one doing that. But I guess it makes a little sense because Weaver and Miller are out causing diversions with some of, uh, uh, miller's just kind of. Magic bag of explosives that aren't gonna take down a dam, but they're going to upset and disturb and confuse the Germans so that the other guys can in infiltrate. [00:48:50] Ian: This is one of those weird moments where having seen the guns of Navarone made me more nervous. Oh, yeah. Because suddenly Miller and Weaver are taking up the same places Stavros and, uh, Spiros had been doing, and so suddenly I'm like, oh no. Oh no. Are we gonna lose Carl Weathers the same way we look at, we lost James, Darren. Oh, no. Yeah. Some weird parallels here. [00:49:17] Matthew: Interesting. You can kind of, that you can use the formula of the prior movie as a source of tension and suspense. I like that. [00:49:25] Ian: Yeah. But , Mallory and Barnsby sneak in and they plant the explosives low in the, in the dam. [00:49:34] Matthew: And they must have gotten instructions from Miller as to where to get, not that they had studied this dam, the way they had the bridge, but at least you could say you need to get as low as you can. There should be these kind of chambers, place them this far apart. I'm guessing Miller told them all that stuff. [00:49:48] Ian: Yeah. Oh, you find a staircase, go to the lowest you can go, and head on over, to the middle and they plant this stuff, set it off, and the dam shakes and nothing. [00:50:05] Matthew: And that's after Barnsby. And Mallory realized that based on the timing, they cannot set this timer to give themselves enough time to get out because they've gotta take it out now to have any chance of destroying that bridge and time to stop the Germans. So they essentially realize, okay, this is the end of a suicide mission. It's been good working with you. Let's set it for 20 seconds so we can walk away, but we know we're not gonna get anywhere. Well, they get knocked down, but they survive and they're, what's going on? It didn't work. I'm gonna kill Miller when I see him. Yeah. [00:50:39] Ian: I love that immediately. Like, oh, I survived the mission. Well, that means I'm gonna get out of here and go, go Miller's butt. [00:50:49] Matthew: And meanwhile outside, Weaver is having the same reaction as he's sitting there with Miller watching the dam and saying, what, nothing happened. There's just a little nothing blew up. What's the matter? [00:51:02] Ian: Miller's just sitting back against the log saying, give it time. It that, that personality Mo, that's a moment where Edward Fox really does a great job in getting the exact same sort of just relaxed chill that David Niven had put into this character. [00:51:23] Matthew: He does, he, he does manage that. And, and oh, and by the way, at this point, Weaver is injured because in Hi Weaver and Miller's Night of Hijinks, , Weaver finally had a knife fight that he squared off with, Richard Keil's character. Yes. Who, and, and Richard Keils character is sort of, he's telegraphed from the very beginning as being the big bad guy because he is, he's not German, but he's super racist. [00:51:49] Ian: Yeah. And really racist. [00:51:51] Matthew: There were some comments among the, the, the Force 10 group and things like that about the fact that well, weaver's not exactly gonna blend in in Yugoslavia, and that's a genuine, point to address. Yeah. But it's that not the same as the kind of comments we got from, the giant chene. So it, it fits the movie that eventually they're the ones who square off and, and Weaver manages to take out, the Chet Nick before he takes out Weaver and Miller. [00:52:25] Ian: Yes. [00:52:27] Matthew: We get the big, the anti-climax of the explosion is upsetting [00:52:31] Ian: the anti climax of the film. [00:52:33] Matthew: Everybody's upset. Yeah. Except, uh, except Miller. Uh, Barnsby and Mallory are upset because the dam didn't blow up and they're still alive. Weaver's upset because the dam didn't blow up. The Germans are upset because, hey, there was just an explosion in our dam. Sound the alarm and see what's going on. [00:52:49] Ian: Yeah. Miller's just, yeah, someone shook our dam. And meanwhile, the, partisan major has all of his men on one side of the bridge dealing with the fact that German troops are sending tanks over it. [00:53:01] Matthew: Yeah. They've begun rolling. [00:53:03] Ian: So there is, there is an active march across this bridge. And then the dam cracks. [00:53:10] Matthew: Yes. Just as the German officers who are going to see what happened down below are getting there and Mallory and Barnsby, are still there and try to hide from them. They look up and they start to see the water leaking in. Yep. I go Barnes, me and Miller, they no longer try to hide. They just run and showed If I were you, I'd get outta here. [00:53:33] Ian: Yeah. They're just like, no, for barnsby [00:53:35] Matthew: and, and Mallory. Yeah. [00:53:36] Ian: They just start running [00:53:39] Matthew: and yeah, the dam bit by bit starts to, uh, crumble and as, as more water leaks in and through that breaks the concrete more. And eventually we get the giant torrent of water coming down this canyon towards the, the bridge. [00:53:55] Ian: Yeah, I mean, it, it feels like something out of, a Jerry and Sylvia Anderson project at the end here with, the model work breaking apart and the speed ramped footage of, rivers to show the force of water. [00:54:12] Matthew: While we were watching it, Mrs. Darling wife asked as the dam went, where are the Thunderbirds? Yes. [00:54:19] Ian: It's a wonderful set of shots though because the dam doesn't. Just all crumble at once. It bursts in a few places and then bursts in more. And so it's this wave one, wave two, wave three collapse. And then we cut over to the bridge as it gets hit and hit and hit and falls. And it's, uh, for a moment I'm like, there's pieces where I'm like, ah, it doesn't feel powerful enough. And then right as I thought that another wave would strike and it felt more so, [00:54:54] Matthew: it, it's interesting to compare that with that pivotal scene towards the end of the guns of navarone where mm-hmm. We have that long scene in which there's the trigger built into the, uh, the, the shell hoist and, oh, it's gonna trigger. No, it didn't quite get there. Oh, now it's gonna go. No, it didn't quite get there. And eventually it, the, the hoist goes down far enough that it hits this trigger. And that seemed watching it. Today that seems like it's so drawn out. They totally stops the pacing of that scene. But it was, it was the way they were building tension in this 1961 movie, in this one. There's a little bit of that as we see all this happening before the bridge goes down, but at least as you're pointing out, there are things happening. You can see it building. It's, it's not just not there, not there, not there done. It's, oh, it's damaging. It's being damaged. It's being damaged more. It's being damaged even more. Let's cut to the German troops who are seeing what's heading for the bridge that they're on. They, they use more tools to build that, that both suspense and drama of this happening. The payoff. Yeah. [00:56:07] Ian: They, they have, it's well done and it does say something about that pacing. Even 17 years later, that same type of pacing works. [00:56:19] Matthew: And Miller gets to light his pipe and tell Weaver, I told you, just wait a few minutes, give it some time. [00:56:25] Ian: The amount of snark he has is so good. [00:56:29] Matthew: Yep. So the day is saved, the bridge is destroyed. A lot of German troops and armor who were already on the bridge go over the side. The rest of them who haven't gone onto the bridge yet can't get over the river. So, they've accomplished what Force 10 was sent there to do. And they've acco accomplished what Mallory and Miller were sent there to do because they've already taken out Nikolai. [00:56:54] Ian: Exactly. So both missions are a success. And then the film ends with, with Mallory getting to give the, the, the, the funny to some extent speech of the fact that, well, congratulations we've done our job, but we are on the wrong side of the bridge, of a broken bridge. Now the long walk back home [00:57:19] Matthew: and these woods are gonna be crawling with Germans any moment. [00:57:23] Ian: Yeah. So let's get going. [00:57:25] Matthew: I like, kind of like movies that end with a satisfying ending, but also this note of we're not out of the woods yet, literally or figuratively. [00:57:36] Ian: Yeah. Uh, a good setup [00:57:42] Matthew: and I think we are headed towards our final questions here. I [00:57:45] Ian: think we are, I try to think of what more I could say, but. We've done a good job summarizing, but also pointing out all the little bits of how this film pieced stuff together and pieced it together in the same or different ways. Right? [00:58:01] Matthew: It was very much its own thing, but it honored the style and the feel of the original movie as well. I think even with all the casting changes and the, the stylistic differences that change over the course of, of, uh, a couple of decades of movie making. [00:58:17] Ian: Mm-hmm. So before we get to our final questions, [00:58:23] Matthew: yes, stay tuned for those as we talk about, whether we recommend this movie and, what we wanna see next. But in the meantime, if you're enjoying the Inter Millennium Media project, please, go to IMMProject.com because that's where you will find. All of our back episodes, and it's also where you will find ways to contact us. We would love to hear from you on our discord on Blue Sky and Mastodon, and we would love to hear from you on our email, which is at our contact page or also , actual genuine, mail at our post office box. And absolutely IMMProject.com is also where you will find ways to support the show. You will find a link to our Patreon where in addition to supporting us, you can get additional audio content starting at just $3 a month. Or if you join at the movie club level, you will occasionally get a mystery DVD in the mail. [00:59:17] Ian: Always fun. [00:59:19] Matthew: And you'll find a link to our store if you like, t-shirts, coffee mugs, notebooks, fun things like that, both for the podcast and honoring some of the movies and TV shows that we've watched such as Space 1999 and The Prisoner. Are you a fan of Yes. Of Kosho? The most popular sport for ex-spies. 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So if you go to by matthew porter.com, you'll find links to, my YouTube page where I, review movies and movie theater experiences as well as travel destinations. And you'll also find, a link to my blue sky and my Mastodon accounts. I'm also by Matthew Porter on those platforms. And, you'll also find, the occasional blog entry on by matthew porter.com. So, join me there. So it's a movie Force 10 from Navarone screen or no screen. [01:01:05] Ian: I enjoyed this film. It was a little bit more of a, a laundry folding film in some ways, but it's a good one. Yeah, that's an inter, I like that [01:01:16] Matthew: definition of a film genre or style. [01:01:19] Ian: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a screen for me, but I've described before it's, you know, one of those, put it on, watch it, but you can do something else, kind of movies. It's a, it's a laundry folding film. I liked it. [01:01:29] Matthew: That's good. [01:01:30] Ian: It was fun. And especially if you, uh, the, the fact that it's closer to current cinema means that you'll recognize some of its actors a little quicker 'cause they're still showing up in stuff. Now you're gonna see them in newer things as well, which means there's people for whom Force 10 might be more approachable than the original guns of Navarone, just cinema wise. [01:01:53] Matthew: Yeah, I would say screen, uh, a screen as well. It's not as, as weighty a movie. Maybe not as expertly crafted a movie as, the Guns of Navarone, but it's still a good movie. It's still enjoyable. Yeah. And, I didn't talk anything about when this movie came out. My first exposure to it for some reason, and, and I can understand why there was a lot of interest among the kids I hung out with in middle school about World War II movies, and there was a couple of TV shows, uh, set in World War II that were popular at the time. Most of our dads had been in World War ii. So this movie, it, it got a lot of attention among the kids I went to school with. And, uh, there, the fact that it had Harrison Ford in it was a bonus of course. But I do remember a few specific scenes were just like the coolest thing. There is a scene in which there's the head scene. [01:02:53] Ian: Oh, [01:02:54] Matthew: a scene in which, in order to infiltrate the, the, the Nazi supply depot, they need a truck and they need uniforms. So they set up to ambush a, uh, a little convoy and they set up a wire across the road to take out the commander who's standing up in his vehicle and it's very cheesy, special effects, if you can call it that, where they're supposedly decapitating this Nazi, and you got a second of his head rolling on the roadway. For some reason, that was, you know, probably we're sixth or seventh grade boys. That's why this was like the coolest thing and wow, did you see that scene? It was so gross. I love that [01:03:38] Ian: it was scenes like that, that made me feel, okay, force 10 from Navarone. Felt so much like the movie, the Ministry of Un Gentlemanly Warfare. There is a similar kind of, you know, men of specific skills and actions go kick a bunch of Nazis in the face attitude. Yes. That they've got that similar vibe, but it's also that like level of action at certain points and that slight bit of humor fits across the two. [01:04:17] Matthew: That's, that's an interesting point. I can see that combination, this movie is closer to those books and that movie than, the Guns of Navarone was. It's interesting that you mention that because when they're reintroducing Miller and the person giving them their new mission talks to him and says, you've been with, with Churchill's Dirty Tricks group, haven't you? I hear you guys are mixing it up a lot. Yeah. Clearly that's what they're talking about, the thing that's been since, unveiled as the, the ministry of un gentlemanly warfare and yeah, they had a lot of very, very effective explosive experts in that group. [01:04:48] Ian: Yeah. If you told me that they would put a, a, a sequel to, to that, that 2000, uh, 24 film, and they were handed something and said, oh, that's a Miller original, I'd be like, yeah, these, these worlds connect instantly. [01:05:02] Matthew: Wouldn't that be nice? That'd be a great little Easter egg, [01:05:05] Ian: A great little Easter egg. [01:05:08] Matthew: So yeah, that, that kind of scene, it was, um, up, that was one nod to the, the, the, the tougher grittier seventies and yeah. Also got you. Seventh grade boys into the movies. [01:05:24] Ian: Mm-hmm. So, hey, that leads us to our next question, though. [01:05:30] Matthew: It does revive, reboot, or rest in peace? [01:05:36] Ian: I mean, it's been a long while. Yeah. We're, we're outside the seventh, [01:05:40] Matthew: the 17 year window is, is, is, uh, over multiple times. [01:05:45] Ian: I mean, I could see them doing more, but in the same way they've done, uh, there's other films picking up this kind of slack and story. I guess a future story would be more Mallory and Miller and their other, the other missions they were sent on in the war. And they've al, they've already thin maned them. So the two of them in anything is a Navarone film. So I guess they've got, you know, another Navarone shadow of the Navarone, the Navarone goes home and of course a song of the Navarone to do. At the same time though, they kind of made a second group, you could do side stories of Barnsby going off and doing side stories and such as a different commander. [01:06:36] Matthew: Yeah, I [01:06:36] Ian: would, I guess more Force 10 [01:06:38] Matthew: films. I would rule out a reboot. I don't see any reason to remake Force 10 from Navarone no more than I saw a reason to remake the Guns of Navarone. They are good movies. Yeah, they stand on their own. There's no reason to remake them. There's nothing that making them in 2025 is going to re uh, is going to add to that. But I, yeah, I would be interested in further adventures of Mallory and Miller and maybe Barnsby and. I, uh, it's weird, but I'm not sure I want those as movies. I don't know that I necessarily want something that is as, as constructed and processed as that. For all I know, this has already been done, but what I would really enjoy would be some comics. I wanna see some comics, some graphic novels of the further adventures of Mallory and Miller, because then you could experiment with some weird mission that would be hard to film and it would be hard to get financing for. And yet you could tell that story in an exciting and graphic way, not have to deal with, okay, now who are you gonna cast in the 2020s? As, as Mallory and Miller? You could choose, okay, I'm gonna draw them kind of like Robert Shaw or like, uh, Gregory Peck. And just yeah, focus on the characters in the story. That would be a lot of fun. [01:07:56] Ian: That could be, I, I could, I could see that work. And I do like the fact that you could have that rolling ball of expanded cast as needed. Yeah. You know? Now Mallory and Miller also have their contacts on, the Isle of Navarone. it, it'd be easier to bring back, news from, from Andreos Stavros and, Maria back on the island. You could have Oh, yeah, no, we've got two contacts in the Americans, with, Barnsby and Weaver. Now. You could have fun with that. There's good expansions here. [01:08:30] Matthew: Yeah. That would be my choice, would be some comics, uh, continuing these adventures. Yeah. That said, the movie stands alone. Well, it doesn't need those, but they'd be fun. [01:08:41] Ian: Absolutely. I like [01:08:43] Matthew: that. [01:08:43] Ian: So, yeah, I think it's a rest in peace. Yeah. But it's a, it's a, it's definitely a, these two films. Bracket and bridge different views of that sort of World War II film. [01:08:56] Matthew: Mm-hmm. [01:08:57] Ian: And there's more to get from both of them. Right. But in terms of Force 10 specifically, it shows how this type can continue and how you can tell different stories. Although there's also a lot of formulaic similarity. It's, you know. Yeah. You know, how does one make a navarone film? Well, you send them off to someplace, it's dangerous and something goes wrong on the arrival. They of course, get captured and fake a story to get out of it. [01:09:25] Matthew: Yeah. [01:09:25] Ian: Uh, they adventure a long way, reveal a traitor and blow something up. [01:09:31] Matthew: Yeah, exactly. [01:09:31] Ian: That is a navarone film boom. [01:09:33] Matthew: And their initial mission description is extremely well planned, but still almost impossible. And then before they even get started, that falls apart. So they have to figure out a new plan on the fly. [01:09:46] Ian: You that description's a little tight though. You are navarone if you choose to accept it. [01:09:55] Matthew: Uh, so yeah, this was interesting. We hadn't re, I don't think we had really looked at any, war movies in World War II movies, certainly in the podcast before. so I thought this was a good pair to start with 'cause they're so distinctive. [01:10:12] Ian: Yeah, I like that. [01:10:15] Matthew: And there are some others that I'm gonna wanna show you. I mentioned a few of them earlier. They are some of , those war movies, especially ones that were between the guns of Navarone and Force 10 from Navarone, that reveal some of the differences in attitudes that were showing up in films. And some of those are weird and fun. So you might enjoy those. We'll be back to those sometime in the future. [01:10:36] Ian: These two films make up the entirety of Navarro November. But we're going to go back to war movies in general. Indeed. [01:10:44] Matthew: But before then, we are headed into the holiday season. [01:10:48] Ian: Ah, yes. [01:10:50] Matthew: So, we have a holiday theme for you, which we'll, start in a couple of weeks and we hope you'll join us then as we uh mm-hmm go into the, the Yule tide and to say farewell to 2025. [01:11:04] Ian: In the meantime, go find something new to watch.