[00:00:00] Rick: If you listen to it long enough, all your senses are sharpened. You come by strange instincts. You get to recognize that peculiar cold, which is the first warning, a cold, which is no mere matter of degrees Fahrenheit, but a draining of warmth from the vital centers of the living [00:00:18] Lizzie: Don't you try to bluff me, 'tis a heathen device to call devils out of hell. [00:00:37] Matthew: Well, hello and welcome once again to the Inter Millennium Media Project. My name is Matthew Porter. [00:00:44] Ian: And I'm Ian Porter. [00:00:45] Matthew: I'm his dad. He's my son, and it's that time of year again. [00:00:51] Ian: Ooh, [00:00:52] Matthew: The sun is setting early. Leaves are crisp and ghosts begin to haunt the night. It's October Abs, [00:01:02] Ian: it's October. [00:01:03] Matthew: We're heading into the Goodness, the Halloween season. And it's time for spooky TV and spooky movies. [00:01:09] Ian: I'm trying to think of a scary version of our acronym. Got a very un-scary acronym. [00:01:17] Matthew: We do, we do. [00:01:18] Ian: Uh, I like, I love, I love our Halloween themes and seasons though. 'cause there's a lot of interesting horror media and it's, it's an entire little sub genre that talks amongst itself so much. [00:01:31] Matthew: Yes, it, it is. And there are so many different kinds of things that will fit into this category. We've done the spooky castle things. We've done just about all of the classic universal movie monsters. We've done. the scary versus spooky versus creepy, like with the The Addams Family and, and Psychomania. But I don't know that we ever have really talked about ghost stories per se. [00:02:00] Ian: do you count something wicked this way comes [00:02:04] Matthew: Not really. They weren't ghosts. [00:02:06] Ian: Okay. [00:02:06] Matthew: They were more like demons. They weren't the spirits of the departed with, with unfinished business. [00:02:12] Ian: Good point. [00:02:13] Matthew: I maybe Ghostbusters was closer [00:02:16] Ian: though. I mean, it's got it in the name. [00:02:17] Matthew: It does, it does. It's hard to argue with that though. We did look at that as a, as more of a summer blockbuster than as a, an October ghost story. [00:02:26] Ian: Mm-hmm. [00:02:27] Matthew: But we are very specifically talking about ghosts this month. [00:02:31] Ian: Yes. And it is a ghost story you have shared with me before actually. Yeah. I was excited to see it again. [00:02:38] Matthew: This is, is one of my favorite ghost story movies of all time, and this is one that was introduced to me by Mrs. Darling Wife. And, uh, I have seen, I don't know how many times I've seen it, but it's one of my favorites. It is The Uninvited from 1944. [00:02:55] Ian: Ah, starring Ray Milland. [00:02:57] Matthew: Yes. And, and I do need to specify that year because there have been a number of other movies with that title, which are nothing like this. [00:03:06] Ian: We're gonna get into that later. Absolutely. [00:03:09] Matthew: But yeah, it's got Ray Milland, Ruth Hussey, Donald Crisp, Cornelia, Otis Skinner, terrific cast. Mm-hmm. And an interesting conflict where the villains aren't openly super villainous at the beginning of the movie. [00:03:26] Ian: No. [00:03:27] Matthew: It's a complex ghost story. [00:03:29] Ian: Yes. There's actually a lot to this, not just time-wise, the, but there's something about this that feels a lot like. The thin man from 10 years earlier in some ways. [00:03:44] Matthew: Oh, in what way? [00:03:46] Ian: There's something about the, the clever people who are piecing together what's currently going on, what did go on, how those things are connected. Hmm. The main characters have plenty of personality, but that doesn't mean that they are the linchpin of what's happening. They are the detectives in that sense. Yeah. [00:04:12] Matthew: Yeah. You're hitting on something that I, I have said about ghost stories and horror movies in general, most good horror movies and most good ghost stories, they are ultimately mysteries because you have to figure out what is the haunting, or what is the horror? What do they want, what are their motivations? What is the history that led to all of this? And that usually leads to some kind of a resolution. This is very much a ghost story in that mystery vein. What is really happening and what are the motivations involved? [00:04:44] Ian: And it starts out, it starts out giving us these characters in such a fun, interesting way. [00:04:53] Matthew: Yes. [00:04:53] Ian: For all, for all intent purposes. This movie starts out with an episode of House Hunters UK [00:05:01] Matthew: and, you know, I think it's important to talk a little bit more about the timing and that it's, it's a movie from 1944 mm-hmm. While World War II is going on. It's based on a, a novel from 1941, but it is set in 1937. And I think that's important because it's on the, western shores of Britain. And that was a very different place once World War II got going than it was in the, in the 1930s, even a year after this. The, the 1937 setting would've been very different. So I think it's, they, they very specifically reached back to a more, a, a time that was more stable and more predictable, especially since they're releasing this movie while the war is still going on. [00:05:45] Ian: Yeah. There's, there's definitely this element of nostalgia [00:05:48] Matthew: Yep. [00:05:49] Ian: To the way it depicts the setting and the place and that place and environment and tone Yeah. Is so important to this film. This, this is a, a story about Windward House. [00:06:04] Matthew: Yes. This house, [00:06:07] Ian: which is such a wonderfully evocative name. [00:06:10] Matthew: It is. It is. And it's, it's this big old house. It's not a, it's not a gigantic mansion. We're not talking about the setting of, of Downton Abbey or something, but it is a big old house. Been standing there on the shore for centuries. it is run down though. And it is empty. It's not, it's not falling apart, but it has been empty for about 20 years. [00:06:33] Ian: Yeah. [00:06:33] Matthew: And our two visitors from London, Rick Fitzgerald played by Ray Milland and his sister Pamela, played by Ruth Hussey, find this house, they're vacationing on the coast with their little dog, and they find this house, find that it's open. And just as soon as she sets foot in this place, Pamela falls in love with it and wants to buy it [00:06:54] Ian: instantly. [00:06:55] Matthew: And finds out, well, it's, it's empty. It must be for sale. And they find out that it, it is, uh, yeah, sort of, but eventually, because they make a pretty good offer. Um, the, he, but [00:07:08] Ian: they still, they still get it for way less than a house like this would go for. [00:07:12] Matthew: Yes, yes. They get a, a deal, [00:07:15] Ian: a good deal [00:07:16] Matthew: because there are rumors about this house, rumors about spooky things that, that you would find in this little coastal fishing village. [00:07:24] Ian: That house is haunted That is something that looms and builds up over time. [00:07:30] Matthew: We do get that wonderful narrative at the beginning of that voiceover from Ray Milland's character, talking about the haunting. But as far as the story itself goes, we get a pretty good buildup of time of, is this just a story? is there any such thing as ghosts? We're not gonna be scared away by this weird talk. and yet there is a history to the house. Even a recent history, the reason it's been, empty for 20 years is that the captain's daughter died tragically on the cliff. Mm-hmm. Over the waves outside the house, and it's been empty ever since. [00:08:08] Ian: And there's these little pieces as they explore the house and see it, the entryway is nice. The living room is nice upstairs. The bedrooms are wonderful. The bathroom's a little odd, but it's that locked room. Yes. That, that locked room that when they finally get the door open, they're both just struck with the cold of it. That is such a wonderful little bit where it's, you know, it's. It's not, well, it's not subtle in a way that doesn't tell you what's going on, but it's not in your face jump scare. This is building, this is bubbling, kind of spooks. [00:08:51] Matthew: Yes. It's, it's kind of the anti jump scare in that there's nothing on screen, there's nothing that's going to startle us as viewers. What we see is the, the reaction of the characters and the, the acting involved and as they, as they describe it, trying to explain it to one another. It's just like all of the life is draining out of them. They're feeling cold, but it's not just a physical cold. It's like all hope and joy is disappearing when they enter this room and it's a beautiful room. It was retrofitted with giant north facing windows because it was an art studio used by the husband of the captain's daughter who was an artist who painted beautiful portraits of her and others, and, Ray Milland's character. Rick is a musician and a composer and would love to use this as his studio, but it's got this strange presence to it. [00:09:43] Ian: And there's other pieces that start to build, to make this case of it. As we hear about the things in town, about why it's been abandoned, about the fact that there is a ghost, it's, you know, the cat refuses to go upstairs. These little bits of laughter or random scents through the rooms it's just slow and steady. [00:10:05] Matthew: And there's another complication about this house, and it's one of the reasons why there was a little confusion around them buying the house because they went to the home of the captain that they had heard was the owner of this empty house, and they met his granddaughter who tells her, I'm so sorry that you were troubled to come all this way, but the house is not for sale. No one can buy that house. You'll have to leave now. Mm-hmm. And it's when she's in the middle of this and that, her grandfather comes home and says, what are you talking about? Of course the house is for sale. We have certain conditions and we need to avoid the problem we have last time of people renting it and then pulling out at the last minute and wanting to leave. Uh, contracts not withstanding, but if somebody wants to buy the house, we should talk to them. And she wants nothing to do with selling this house. [00:10:50] Ian: Stella is insistent. [00:10:52] Matthew: Yes. Because Stella is the daughter of the woman who died so tragically. Yes. And she, she lived there until she was three. I believe it was, and she does not necessarily have memories of this house, but she has a connection to this house and she has comforting dreams that remind her of being in the nursery at this house and doesn't want it to be sold off. [00:11:17] Ian: And, the commander doesn't want Stella in that house. [00:11:22] Matthew: No, no. He doesn't. He he is, [00:11:24] Ian: he is very insistent that this is, you know, we, we'll keep, we'll keep it. We're gonna, we're gonna have it there. We, we don't want to sell it, but if you can really make a great offer. [00:11:34] Matthew: Yeah. And that's one of the reasons [00:11:35] Ian: he, yeah. It's kind of to keep Stella out of there. So he has control of it. [00:11:40] Matthew: Right. One of the reasons why he's, he's okay with selling it is to break that connection that Stella has with it. And Stella is an interesting character, the way that Gail Russell plays her. She's this, she's small and seemingly a little bit frail, but she has definitely a will and an opinion about things. And she's a little bit unearthly. A little bit ethereal. [00:12:03] Ian: Yeah. She's, uh, if in the same way that the Dracula story is so much about Mina Harker. There's so much of The Uninvited that is swirling around Stella, and that's a major point of it, but it's that element of her performance is what everything else is bouncing off of. Gail Russell, is doing so much to bring this character and breathe this tension into her. She is very formal and proper and yet prone to this energy. [00:12:42] Matthew: Yes, she's been sheltered by her, her grandfather all her life, and yet she does have a curiosity about her. Mm-hmm. And Gail Russell, of course, you know Gail Russell is beautiful and she plays this character in this very wide-eyed way. And naturally, uh, Rick winds up falling in love with, Stella and vice versa. [00:13:03] Ian: I do love the way the, uh, romance between Stella and Rick make them this kind of romantic pair, but that puts his sister Pamela is kind of this wonderful commentary track on the side. Yes, yes. The trio dynamic of this brother and sister and this romantic interest for the brother of Stella gives them a fun dynamic across them, which is how they do their investigating and playing, this story out. [00:13:32] Matthew: It does, although things do balance out before along because as part of their investigations as to what has happened previously in this town, they meet the doctor Who is played by, Alan Napier, later on he goes on to play, Alfred in Batman. So Alan Napier as this doctor. Then there's this romantic attraction between him and Pamela, and they wind up being a couple as well. So it's kind of cute. Yes. How they move to this town. They both fall in love and find people to marry by the end of the story. , and the doctor says that , he doesn't know everything about this town. There are some people who don't talk to him much. He's still the newcomer. He's only been there 12 years, whereas most of these families have been there for generations and generations. [00:14:14] Ian: Mm-hmm. Another piece of that nostalgia and that cling to the past element with the, just the age and the, the tight knitness of this community in the town nearby, [00:14:28] Matthew: But Rick and Pamela, they move into the house. They apparently came from a family that had had money, that had had a big house where they grew up, but the two of them had been living in a flat in London with most of the family's things in storage. And now they're finally able to bring things out of storage, furnish this big beautiful house. And Pamela is living there for a few weeks while Rick is still taking care of things in London. Yeah. And when we, we, when they get back to the house, we see Rick arriving at the house for the first time after it's been furnished. It's beautiful. It's set up so nicely. Uh, Pamela has done a great job, but there's something uneasy about Pamela and the house, and she a few times goes to tell him something but then says, no, I, I don't wanna, I I don't want to, uh, trouble you with this. And that night they hear the crying. [00:15:23] Ian: Yes. [00:15:24] Matthew: This echoy ghostly, sobbing. Up on the second floor, and Rick, who's kind of our focus character, our point of view character, Rick hears it, he goes out to the, the hall. Pamela also comes out and explains, I've heard this almost every night. And it, it comes late in the night. It disappears at dawn. Uh, and we, we can't tell what it is. It's, it's creepy though. Yeah. And it's our first indication that the stories about this house may be more than just stories. [00:15:57] Ian: Something's actually happening. [00:15:59] Matthew: And that's what triggers the mystery and the investigation part of this ghost story, which involves, going back to the captain. And the captain is very resistant about talking about this very much. You bought this house fair and square, it's yours. , I'm not going to. Dwell on any of the weird stories. If you're hearing something, it's a very old house. There might be sea caves in the, on the cliff below that have changed over time that the wind is making noises in. It's, it's none of my business though, eventually even says, well, if you insist, I'll give you your money back. And, but Rick says, no, no, no. I don't, I want the house. I just wanna know what's going on. Mm-hmm. And they continue to investigate. [00:16:39] Ian: And we already had Rick, uh, Rick's a musician, but he was a music critic. He, he writes for the paper, and I don't remember if we hear what Pamela, uh, did or does, if she's got any career prospect in that. But yeah, they both, they both already have been given this energy the first time they, they're seen. When they first find the house, they're on a walk on this vacation and they climb up the cliff to see what's up here following their dog. They have been set up as curious characters who have that investigative drive. Yes. Which helps make this happen where the idea of, I'm not complaining, I'm looking for answers, because that means something is baked into them. Right. And the fact that you've got two of them and they're playing off of each other and the town is trying to hold onto its secrets, kind of gets you invested. You get wrapped up in this, Fitzgerald mindset of theirs about trying to figure it out. And you want that to, you want those answers along with them. Mm-hmm. It's great at keeping that pace and that tension, which is so important for a horror story. But if they wanna take this, this slower pace, they don't let that ease off the energy. [00:18:00] Matthew: And, and they do give you enough information to at least satisfy the distraction of how are they affording all of this? What is their, yes. How are they living? They talk about the fact that, as you say, he was a music critic in London, but his paper has asked him for a series of features which he can write from anywhere without having to be in London to attend concerts. So that'll give them enough money to live on because they've scraped together everything they had to buy this house. And with the solitude of living out in the, uh, on the shore now on the coast, he can work on his music, he can, he can start to compose music again like he always wanted to, but was never able to do for a living. So there's enough of that, that going on. They, they've answered those questions and of course we do see some wonderful scenes as he gets to know Stella more and, and vice versa. And they really hit it off and they invite Stella to the house. Mm-hmm. The house where she grew up for a few years before her mother's tragic death. [00:18:59] Ian: Come have dinner [00:19:00] Matthew: and she is, she's delighted, she loves this house. This is why she didn't want it to go to someone else. She's kind of glad that it goes to somebody she likes as, as well as she likes Rick. If, uh, if it has to go to someone else. And this romance continues as they're in the house and, and Rick is showing her around and what they've done with it and how he's made the, the studio into his music studio and mm-hmm. A wonderful scene where he is playing for her a song that he's composing and he's composing it for her Stella by Starlight, which is kind of the theme for this movie. It's definitely the character theme for Stella, and it's interesting to have that within the story composed by one of the characters. It's a beautiful piece of music. [00:19:48] Ian: It is. And they show a fun moment in there where. He's as I, I love this moment. This is one of my favorite bits of the film where as he's playing and he's playing this kind of light, beautiful set of notes and the, the candles dim in the room and that haunting comes in and he changes it. And she's like, oh, why are you playing it sad now? He's like, I don't know. It's just what felt right. [00:20:19] Matthew: It's, it's [00:20:21] Ian: such a, that is such a good moment. [00:20:22] Matthew: It's a sinister take on haunting that it isn't just something happening that in the house, it's affecting the emotions in the feelings of mm-hmm. The people in the house where, I don't know, it's, the song is just suddenly coming out sad. And meanwhile, the flowers that he picked for her from the garden, uh, are sitting on the, the table and we see them wither spontaneously over the course of a few seconds. [00:20:49] Ian: The ghosts. The ghost in this film, the way this depicts haunting is not purely physical, tangible. It's not mental, it is emotional. It is a, a mood and a mind untethered, embodying a space and, and blanketing all the other minds in the room. Which is, is so interesting because it's got that extra element of like, it's definitely feels like something stuck in a, in a place, in a mood, in a moment. There's something frozen, there's something preserved about that, [00:21:33] Matthew: and it's the, the way that the, the characters internalize that it's a ghost story with very little by way of special effects, and I think that's terrific. Yeah. So much of it is portrayed with, with things like music and lighting, but also the acting. And this evening for which they have invited Stella ends weirdly as they apparently encounter a ghost. Yeah. There's this presence that appears and everybody's freaked out a little bit except Stella, who thinks this is her mother. And she talks about, she spoke earlier about the fact that in the, the nursery of this, uh, the, the room that had been her nursery, she has these feelings and these dreams of a, a, a beautiful warm light. And then it being swept away by something cold. And, uh, but she thinks, oh, this is, this ghost is my mother trying to contact me. And isn't that wonderful? But eventually she's sort of possessed with something else, and she runs out to the cliff where her mother died. [00:22:42] Ian: Yeah. Almost follows over the cliff until she's snapped out of it. [00:22:49] Matthew: Yes, Rick, Rick saves her and she doesn't know what happened. And that's when they bring the doctor in. We first meet. Mm-hmm. Uh, Dr. Scott, and from him, we learned about the fact that, that Stella's father was a painter and he had a model, the Spanish model as , the movie describes her. She was a Spanish gypsy, he had an affair with this Spanish painter's model of his, and that was , the open scandal of this family and this town. And the understood history is that , the Spanish model is responsible for, Mary Meredith's death. Stella's mother's death. Yeah. And from there they kind of make this, this leap. They say, okay, we, we care about Stella, we want her to be safe. We want, unfortunately, that means she probably has to stay away from this house. Let's have a seance. [00:23:48] Ian: Yes. This is where I, I wanted to make sure I established that, uh, you know, Rick and Pamela have this like, I know answers kind of attitude. 'cause it helps explain why they fall straight into the Don't do that in a horror film trap. I do appreciate how much, their Irish housekeeper, Lizzie is, is such a quintessential like, voice of reason. Just, there's just so much of, you know, uh, I. If we didn't use it in the opening, we've gotta put in the you sound like you're taking away my bicycle discussion. [00:24:33] Matthew: I have what leads up to that? In the middle of the music I've got, Don't try to trick me 'tis a device to call demons out of hell. [00:24:41] Ian: Yes, exactly. She's such a brilliantly know this, this, this housekeeper is such a brilliantly energetic like, and like, we're in, we're in the, you're gonna stay in this house. It's haunted, and now you're gonna call the ghost to you. Oh, you're crazy. [00:25:01] Matthew: That's why I picked that, that bit in for our, our opening her, her just saying, well, this is a, a device for calling demons out of hell. Uh, she is the no, don't talk to the spirits. Don't go down in the basement. Don't do all these stupid horror movie things. Get out of here. I'm, I for one am not gonna sleep another night under this roof. I'm gonna go sleep with the farmer down the road and his family. Yeah. You're [00:25:23] Ian: paying me, you're paying me to clean it. I'll do that when the sun is shining. Yes. When it's not, I ain't here. [00:25:31] Matthew: And the seance as far as I could find out. This seance is the first depiction of Ouija in a movie. They don't actually use a Ouija board, but they use anagram tiles, essentially. Scrabble tiles. Yeah. Spread in a circle, uh, in, on the table with a yes and a no card at either end. And they have a wine glass that they're, they're using in a typical Ouija way as a planche. But it's, uh, it's interesting. It's the first, uh, first depiction of that kind of divination or spirit communication on film. [00:26:09] Ian: I don't know what it says about me, but I looked at that and said, oh, hey, it's the thing from The Martian. It's like, you know, are you contact, are you contacting, uh. The ghost of Stella's mother. Are you contacting? Are you contacting Mark Watney? [00:26:28] Matthew: That I never made that connection, but you're right. It is like that. It's the, [00:26:33] Ian: it's the exact same. You put 'em around in the circle and you move to the one you want. Terrific. Could have a, a fun little, uh, crosscut there of putting those together. [00:26:44] Matthew: That reminds me, uh, complete tangent. I've been reading, Andy Weir's, Project Hail Mary. Terrific. Oh yeah. Great book. And I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful about how they, they turned that into a movie. Ooh. But, but you're right. This is the, the Mark Watney Ouija method. Yes. [00:27:03] Ian: But it's, it's a great scene with them. I, I love also, like you get to see some of Stella's personality there, as she's so excited to get to talk with her mom. And as they're doing it, she's like, wait a minute, Rick, you're holding it. You're pressing down on it to keep this message from coming through. You too, doctor. Take your hand off. And then it starts to move that like, you know, you two are resisting. I like, I want this to come to me. And it starts answering Yes. Once they remove their hands, that, that's a such a fascinating moment. [00:27:39] Matthew: And they're hoping to talk to Mary Meredith and they want Mary to tell Stella to stay away from the house. [00:27:45] Ian: Yes. [00:27:46] Matthew: But something else comes up. Yeah. And the Ouija is saying things like, well, why are you here? And its answer is, I guard. Mm-hmm. And Stella falls into a, a trance in which she begins to mutter in Spanish. Yeah. So we're getting the impression there are, there's more than one ghost here. [00:28:08] Ian: That's such a wonderful bit. And I like spoil, like spoiler warning, I guess it's [00:28:13] Matthew: such [00:28:14] Ian: a brilliant twist. [00:28:14] Matthew: No question. There will be spoilers here. [00:28:17] Ian: There will be spoilers as we, as you know, like this is not a one ghost story. And that's so fascinating because we've spent all this time with this haunting and this disparate back and forth. And the idea that it's two changes, the whole, the whole system. Because suddenly it's a, which one are you assigning? What pieces of haunting to what effects are, which ghost and why are they happening, where they're happening changes so much. [00:28:48] Matthew: And the story has been that, that Mary Meredith Stella's mother was held up as this, this beautiful, charming person full of heart and generosity tragically killed by this terrible person from another country who had an affair with her husband. this is also, um. This story is, is very much promoted by Ms. Holloway, who was a friend and confidant of Mary Meredith and who was also a nurse and who has, I think, with some money from the Merediths has created this, exclusive sort of sanitorium, a hospital for the mentally ill but has very strange methods and does not seem like a very welcoming and therapeutic person. Yeah. But she's obsessed with the image of her benefactor, Mary Meredith as this perfect person. [00:29:46] Ian: Yeah. She's got this giant painting of her on the wall because after being been possessed and everything going on, Stella's not doing well. [00:29:56] Matthew: No, no, no. The captain wants her to stay far away from the Fitzgeralds and from Windward house. and he actually reaches out to Ms. Holloway and tells her what's going on. And the Fitzgeralds go and talk to Ms. Holloway because they will find out that she may have more information about what happened 20 years ago and, what the real story is. And this is part of a mystery. They're piecing together the Fitzgeralds plus the doctor. [00:30:25] Ian: Ms. Holloway is just such an odd character. Ms. Holloway feels like she wandered out of a Batman story almost. She's got that like, you know, I'm the new person running Arkham kind of wide-eyed wielded. Yes. Kind of. Kind of crazy it. She's the closest to being very unrealistic in this ghost story, and that says something. [00:30:48] Matthew: Yes. And part of that comes to her cult-like devotion to the memory of Mary Meredith. You mentioned the painting. There are two big paintings of Mary Meredith that we see in this movie. In one of them, she is. Like a beautiful lady, a real person. And then there's a giant painting in Mary Meredith house that Mrs. Ms. Holloway is, uh, is running. And it is this, it shows her as a goddess, this powerful angelic figure who's not quite human. Mm-hmm. [00:31:20] Ian: And I think very importantly, the way the face looks, I don't know who they had, they might have actually been, uh, had, uh, Gail Russell as the, the, the, the reference for this portrait. I don't think so, though. I don't think [00:31:35] Matthew: so, because that wouldn't make sense with the details, how the story plays out. Yeah, I know. But there, but they may have. [00:31:40] Ian: Yeah. But there's something about this, but it's in, in the, in one photo, Mary Meredith is shown with this big, wide-eyed look. She is this, this picture of innocence. But in this giant photo, it is this steely-eyed, gla. It is this, you know, it's when we're talking about a goddess, we're not talking about, you know, this, this passive happy. This is, this is much more the, the look on the face of liberty leading the people. Yes. If you've ever seen that painting, it is this, this, you know, feminine charge into battle steel kind of look. Mm-hmm. And that is such a distinct difference because it is not this kind woman we've seen in the depictions and the discussion of her in the town. Right. It's the first hint we get of a very different side to Mary Meredith. [00:32:38] Matthew: and when the Fitzgeralds go to talk with, Holloway at Mary Meredith house, they don't know that Stella is there. Yeah. Stella's father has sent her there to get her away from the house to get her into the care of Ms. Holloway because he thinks that Stella is just, not quite right and needs the help of a professional like Ms. Holloway. Mm-hmm. and one thing, one of those things, one of the few things that mark this very much as a movie of its time. Is the, the little, let's have fun with the mentally ill scene that we get. When Rick and Pamela first visit, uh, Mary Mary to the house, and they have this very strange, conversation with a, Ms. Bird who is one of the patients there who collects rocks to give to Ms. Holloway. It's not as, as big and intrusive. They don't make such a big deal out of it in this movie. It's the kind of thing you wouldn't necessarily see in a movie today. And I can understand them wanting something at that point in the movie to give a little bit of a break to, to change the level of tension before they build it up again towards the second half of the movie. But it was, it was odd to see that it was, everything else seems so timeless and ages so very well for a movie from the 1940s. This kind of stood out. [00:33:58] Ian: Yeah. Gave me weird flashbacks to the film Harvey. [00:34:01] Matthew: Yeah, that's, that's a good point. That's an interesting comparison. You compare the different sanatoriums in, these two movies and mm-hmm. And yet it, it does serve a point. It's not just a let's have a comedy break. They learn more about Ms. Holloway and her methods and the way she deals with people and patients from this weird little conversation with Ms. Bird. So it does have a, a real good function. [00:34:26] Ian: Yeah. Nothing is wasted in this film, I'd say. Yes. But that doesn't mean everything is at the same pacing. [00:34:35] Matthew: Yeah. I mean, this is a, a tightly potted movie. It's only, it's running time is 98 minutes. It's not a long movie. And they pack a lot of, of plot and a lot of carefully monitored and carefully parceled out information within those 98 minutes. [00:34:50] Ian: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. [00:34:52] Matthew: So then towards the end of the movie, we get this. This sort of crisis that involves who is where and races against time because the captain is taken ill, and Dr. Scott needs to deal with him and that's when he tells them all that Stella is at Mary Meredith house with Ms. Holloway. So while Scott, Dr. Scott is taking care of the captain, they rush to get Stella and rescue her from Holloway. Mm-hmm. But meanwhile, Holloway has gotten a call from the, from the captain and has sent Stella back to Winward house. Yeah. With this sinister. And she explains this to. the Fitzgeralds when they get there that I sent her to the house and the cliffs below the house. Mm-hmm. And to the rocks below the cliffs. She's suddenly more and more of this diabolical, evil person. And she, she has this idea that she wants to finish what Mary Meredith started. Yeah. Because we've learned the secret by now. [00:36:05] Ian: Yeah. You, you stop, you watch as Ms. Holloway stops talking to the Fitzgeralds and starts talking to the giant painting of Mary in the room. Yes. In a beautiful, creepy way. Because we learned that, you know, through all of this investigation, uh, that Mary found out about the affair and took, uh, Carmel to Paris to leave her there, but she returned and took away the infant Stella. And it was during a confrontation of that, that Mary fell down the cliffs. So now it looks like, oh my goodness, this, this, you know, this model had, uh, not only had this affair, but tried to steal the child and killed Mary and Oh my goodness. But they finally get back to, Windward house and they save Stella again from falling off these cliffs. [00:37:03] Matthew: Yes. Because we've all, we've gotten all the pieces now to put together based on what we learned about the, the, the birth that early life of Stella, the fact that mm-hmm. Unlike Mary Meredith, who has this bright blonde hair. According to the painting, Stella has beautiful dark hair. And Yes, in during the seance was possessed by a spirit that promised to guard and was speaking Spanish. [00:37:29] Ian: Yep. [00:37:29] Matthew: Stella is not Mary Meredith's daughter. [00:37:33] Ian: No, [00:37:33] Matthew: she is Carmel's daughter. [00:37:36] Ian: Exactly. And it flips the whole thing on its head in a beautiful way as we realize. No, the guarding spirit's Carmel and the, the aggressive one is Mary. That coldness, that that anger that was being applied to everyone, the, the spirit that kept trying to throw Stella off the cliff was Mary, [00:38:03] Matthew: because that's what Mary tried to do so long ago. And Carmel saved her. [00:38:10] Ian: And when she saved her, Mary fell off the cliffs herself in trying to kill them. It changes the whole narrative. [00:38:16] Matthew: It does. And the descriptions we've had, all of these glowing descriptions of Mary Meredith have been. She was, she was beautiful and regal and they were mostly things that, it didn't take much of a shift to hear these descriptions of she was cold and she was self-absorbed and all of these things. that would've led her to respond to the affair that her husband was having with this model of his, but to respond to that with evil intent towards the child, the innocent in all of this. [00:38:49] Ian: It's a great reveal and it's a good, it, it, it makes the mystery important 'cause there's so many ghost stories that are just, you know, find the ghost, survive the ghost placate the ghost. But this one is, there's a fight still lingering and you have. Become the vessel through the fight. The fight is happening through and what side is, which is what you're figuring out. And that changes how you act. It's excellent. [00:39:21] Matthew: And most ghost stories, they involve, unfinished business. Here we've got two ghosts, both with unfinished business. Mary's unfinished business involves her, her, her anger at this child. Yes. And her, her destructive will towards it. And therefore the ghost of Carmel also has this unfinished business. She needs to protect Stella from this malevolent force that is out to get her [00:39:52] Ian: because we do find out, thanks to investigation from Dr. Scott, that after Mary's death, Carmel came down with severe pneumonia and was put into the care of Ms. Holloway. Yes. Who. very intentionally did not properly care for her and let Caramel die out of spite. Leaves both of them having died in a way that leaves a ghost. In that sense, [00:40:20] Matthew: it's hard for us to convey here because the movie does it so incredibly well. It's hard to us con to convey how well the movie gives us this information from conversations with people from the medical records of the, the prior doctor in the town whose notebooks Dr. Scott still has, and all of these details that lead them to realize, oh, this, this Nurse Holloway is responsible for Carmel's death very intentionally. Mm-hmm. But then she was so devoted to Mary Meredith, killing Carmel was something she saw she had to do for Mary. [00:40:59] Ian: Yeah. But with that revelation, there's this peace that comes to Carmel. The spirit, Stella now knows who her actual mother is. [00:41:11] Matthew: Right. That warm protective feeling that she would have that, that bright light, that was her mother Carmel. [00:41:19] Ian: Mm-hmm. But that leaves that angry cold feeling of Mary still in the house. But now Carmel has left. So Mary's like appearing more, , more present. And she is attempting to be more vicious, but they know who she is now. [00:41:39] Matthew: Yes. Toward the very end, we finally, we start to see the ghost more and more clearly. Mm-hmm. And the, the ghost of Mary Meredith is from a distance, you could see it's this white angelic form, but then you realize it has this malevolent face and it is a. A great simple brief depiction of a, an evil ghost on screen. [00:42:00] Ian: Mm-hmm. And it's very nicely done. The same kind of flowing robe goddess look that is in the painting. The, the second painting we see of her is closer to that. But that steeley is now this malevolent scowl. We kind of watched this other character of this dead woman change in form across her three depictions. And that last one, the ghost is still got pieces of the other two, but is finally showing a true, a true face in that sense. [00:42:31] Matthew: And the friendly ghost has more and more physical manifestations towards the end as well. The ghost is flipping pages of these old medical notebooks to reveal the important information, and there's, there's a great scene or two. I don't know that I've seen this quite this way in movies where we, as the audience can see the ghost trying to point things out to the characters in the movie, but the characters in the movie are looking the wrong way and they don't see it. So the doctor's got his back to the desk where the book is open and we suddenly see the pages start to start to flip to the right place. But everybody keeps talking and then leaves the room before they notice it. It's like with the ghost here, look, it's all in here and nobody pays attention. [00:43:16] Ian: it's interesting you kind of start feeling the frustration of the ghost in that sense as our protagonists bumble their way at the wrong place. But you're also feeling our protagonists, because we follow them and we're excited for them to hunt. And it's like, no, just, just turn around. Yes, just turn around. [00:43:38] Matthew: And of course the final threat to Stella was, once again, Mary Meredith kind of possessing her and mm-hmm. Driving her to run towards the cliffs. And this time she actually falls off the cliff, but at the last minute she has control of herself again, and she grabs onto the roots of the tree nearby, and Rick and, and Dr. Scott are able to pull her back up. So it's a wonderful, harrowing ending that we've had telegraphed. So many times earlier in, in the story, both the stories about how Mary Meredith died, Stella's earlier, strange dash towards the edge of the cliff, [00:44:11] Ian: it's this wonderful bit where it's like the other times she's almost gone over, she's been stopped and saved by someone else, even being stopped and saved by the ghost of her mother. This is the time she saves herself. Yes. And it's like, okay, no, I've got a reason to stop that. [00:44:32] Matthew: Yep. [00:44:33] Ian: she's no longer a passive child to be attacked. She is a woman fighting back against this, this malevolence that has been placed upon her on I'm, I'm my own person, back off ghost, [00:44:47] Matthew: and I'm, I'm still not sure. Did she run towards the cliff at the end there because she was possessed by. The ghost? Or was it because she was frightened? Because initially she thinks this ghost is her mother, and then it turns out to be Mary Meredith. [00:45:01] Ian: I will say she kind of acts out what the thoughts and assumptions are each time. Oh, the first time she acts much more like she is throwing herself off the cliff in sorrow, which is what it was first assumed Mary did. Then if she's, she acts like she's pushed off the cliff in anger. Ah, the same way that, it's assumed Carmel must have killed Mary out of this vengeance, and the third time she is thrown off the cliff, [00:45:32] Matthew: ah, [00:45:32] Ian: the way Mary would've done with a child [00:45:35] Matthew: that that works. [00:45:36] Ian: She actually plays out each of the ways it's thought to have happened. But on that third is where she takes that agency. Where she isn't killed which theoretically, as it actually happened, leaves Mary's ghost to be the one sent over the cliff. Although she's dead already, that doesn't do anything to her. [00:45:59] Matthew: So at the end, they are, well, the commander, Stella's grandfather has passed away from the heart ailment. Mm-hmm. That has been troubling him more and more. And, his imminent death is part of what leads him to come clean about more of the story. And also Mary, uh, Meredith's ghost is dispelled by the fact that we are now here protecting Stella and, and we won't let you do anything. And then Carmel's Ghost is happy. And instead of the sobbing that we heard earlier, we hear the laughter of. Ghost of Carmel because now she's happy and her daughter is safe. [00:46:35] Ian: I love that moment where the sobbing turns into laughter. Yes. but Mary's ghost is manifesting, and yet that laughter she recoils from. Yes. [00:46:45] Matthew: And that's how they finally drive [00:46:47] Ian: her out. They drive her out of like, uh, you were so self-absorbed, you didn't want anyone else to be happy. You didn't like that this other person was happy. You were this cold, angry person. And you took that out on everyone else. Yep. [00:47:01] Matthew: Well, now this house is filled with laughter and that's all you're gonna get from here. So go away. [00:47:07] Ian: I'm good. I'm sorry to ruin it. There's this tiny bit of, uh, of Rick with his grand speech and throwing the Candelabra at the ghost Just reminds me, just reminds me of Corg from Thor piss off. Ghost Kicking a wall is kind of a like, and this just no, get outta here. [00:47:28] Matthew: And that's one of the other things that, that keeps this movie from being too dark and too dramatic and too depressing is mm-hmm. That Rick is basically a fun person and a, uh, a bright and optimistic person. And we also see him being a little bit of a, of a comic coward where he's, no, don't worry. I, I'm not afraid of anything. And meanwhile he's, you know, giving a, a shaggy look to everything in the corner. Yeah. But, uh, but that's part of the fun and that's part. Mm-hmm. Uh, and there's such. And he brings more of that joy out of Stella, the more time they spend together. And you can see her blossoming as, as she, she sees more of the world and more of what it's like to relate to people than she ever had under the, uh, the protection of her grandfather who was very overprotective. [00:48:16] Ian: Yeah. I think we might be coming up to final questions about that 'cause we're hitting the end of the story, but it's so interesting. [00:48:22] Matthew: It, yeah. I, I think so. I think so because by the end, it looks like Stella and Rick are gonna be married and live in Windward house. And, Pamela and Dr. Scott are gonna be married and live in town, so everybody's gonna be happy. [00:48:37] Ian: Yeah. It's very classic, it ends with two, with two couples going off in a wonderful way. So [00:48:45] Matthew: very, very optimistic ending for a ghost story like this. Yeah. But the fact that it's positive fact one of the ghosts was a, a positive and protective ghost is one of the ways we can get that. [00:48:57] Ian: Mm-hmm. Not often you've got a, a good haunting, [00:49:04] Matthew: but I do think, as you say, we're we're headed for our final questions. Mm-hmm. And before we get there, listeners, if you're enjoying the Inter Millennium Media Project, please go to imm project.com. That's where you'll, find more of the IMM project, including all of our back episodes and many years worth of, uh, Halloween episodes. If you wanna stay in the, uh, the seasonal spirit, you'll also find there ways to contact us. We would love to hear from you by, by email, on our Discord, by US Mail at our PO Box. [00:49:35] Ian: physical mail, how spooky. [00:49:39] Matthew: And also you'll find places where you can support the podcast. If you want to join us on Patreon, you will get, additional audio content starting at $3 a month. And if you join us at the movie club level, you will get a mystery DVD in the mail periodically. [00:49:54] Ian: It's a fun thing. I'm, I enjoy getting to be part of this and not knowing what I might be seeing from my dad's past, or what he might be seeing from mine. You can join in on that and experience the same thing. [00:50:05] Matthew: And you'll also have a link to our shop, where you can buy t-shirts and coffee mugs and other fun things, both for the podcast and about some of the TV shows that we have talked about. And you'll find a link to our YouTube channel where a lot of our episodes are available in video or pseudo video format. And, uh. Some people find that an easier way to share the podcast because of course that is the best way to support us, is to let people know about us, share with your friends, and, uh, give us nice ratings on where whatever you get your podcast, [00:50:37] Ian: be passing the clips. [00:50:39] Matthew: And Ian, [00:50:40] Ian: where can people find you? I can be found as itemcrafting on most places. Be that itemcrafting.com or as ItemCraftingLive on Twitch. I stream every Thursday that I can, so come on over for an evening of games and crafting. And how about you, dad? [00:50:57] Matthew: You can find me at bymatthewporter.com that you will find links to wherever I am online. That includes by Matthew Porter on, uh, Mastodon and on Blue Sky, and also by Matthew Porter on YouTube, where I review movies and movie theater experiences. [00:51:12] Ian: Aha. [00:51:14] Matthew: So final questions. [00:51:17] Ian: So. Final questions screen or no screen. [00:51:21] Matthew: So what do you say, Ian? [00:51:23] Ian: Ah, this is a screen. This is a good one. Yes, indeed. I, you showed me this when I was much younger, pre podcast, and I liked it. Then seeing it again now, this is such a wonderful piece. It is unappreciated and honestly, we didn't even talk about its place in the popular culture. This was not as big a hit at the time, but it has gotten a lot more attention over the years as being a great, great example of horror at the time and of just horror in general without being gruesome or aggressive. [00:52:00] Matthew: Right. It's a, it's a bright and fun kind of horror, even though the story that it's ultimately uncovering is a very dark one, and part of that is the characters. There's a certain timeless. Positivity to the characters. The characters are, are investigating these things, but they are people with intelligence and with humor mm-hmm. There's a certain kind of almost a Paul Rudd character, feel to people like Rick. And, you know, we're dealing with something serious, but we're still in some way happy go lucky. [00:52:30] Ian: Yeah. And it's interesting that this part of, like, another piece of it is your, there's a lot of depth to these characters and there's pieces that were not intended but come through as a message about exactly how Ms. Holloway thought of Mary and that devotion. Some people took in a, as you know, much more of a, an unrequited love element and that got pushback that wasn't originally intended, but people saw that in there and some were unhappy with it, but others. Found it very fascinating and compelling as a, as a depiction that wasn't there before. Interesting. There wasn't an example of that kind of story or story element, and here it is as a plot point, potentially not intended, but kind of , on the periphery. [00:53:21] Matthew: that is an interesting point because I can certainly, I don't think it takes that much to see that aspect in Miss Holloway's character and the way mm-hmm. She has this devotion. It's not necessary, but it's not hard to get there. Given the way she talks about Mary Meredith and such, and from the perspective of, 1944, I could see that, well, that's not just something that's, that's not the kind of thing we talk about in movies. Mm-hmm. From this perspective of 2025, I'm thinking of Yeah. Really another movie in which, well, of course she's the villain because she's one of those people, you know, we don't need that. So, um, so it's interesting that if you see that in the character, you can have very different reactions depending on, where you are in time and generationally and other things. Exactly. [00:54:09] Ian: So that, that leads to the question, our next question. Oh. 'cause what was your opinion, dad? [00:54:13] Matthew: Oh, absolutely. Screen this. No question about it. Oh, exactly. This is, this is almost a once a year screen for me. It's just so good. Oh yeah. So yeah, our next question, [00:54:24] Ian: revive, reboot, or rest in peace? Well, I mean, any movie that has this, we've gotta talk about it. So, I mean, this was the 1944 version. So of course there's the 2009 version. Uh, wait a minute. The 2009 is. A remake of a South Korean horror film. It's called The Uninvited, but it's not a remake of this. Okay? So that one doesn't count. So, that means we've gotta look at the, 2024 film, The Uninvited, which is an original piece and isn't related to this at all. So it's also not a remake. So this film doesn't actually have any remakes. No, it's got a name that keeps getting reused, but there's no other version of The Uninvited 1944, other than The Uninvited 1944. [00:55:13] Matthew: And the novel from which it was adapted isn't even called The Uninvited, the novel is called Uneasy Freehold. I can understand why they didn't use that for a Hollywood movie. It doesn't really tell us very much. The Uninvited is a much cooler title, but I don't believe there have been any other adaptations of Uneasy Freehold either. [00:55:32] Ian: Uneasy Freehold. Sounds like a road trip film. [00:55:35] Matthew: It does, it does. [00:55:38] Ian: It really. I don't know why, but there's something about that. [00:55:43] Matthew: You remove the un you've got a blues musician. Yeah. Hey, next up on our stage is easy freehold. [00:55:49] Ian: I, I just hear uneasy freehold 'em thinking, you know, oh, we can't stop here. It's windward house country. But I'm looking at this and saying, this is absolutely a remake for me. The original is great, but there's something about this story that I feel like it sounds contrived in some ways, but I want a modern retelling of this. [00:56:14] Matthew: Yeah. [00:56:16] Ian: I, I'm looking at this and saying, you've got , a brother and sister trying to find a place, set it in 2019 where they're buying this house. They get it for an amazing deal. Everyone else says, wait a minute, you're gonna, we know what's coming. There's a little bit of that element still about like [00:56:35] Matthew: mm-hmm. [00:56:36] Ian: A certain time and place and things that are going to change in the world. But that story of this dual haunting, I think still has something. And I'd love to see a little bit of extra, like a little bit of modern cinematography could be a wonderful version of this. And there's plenty of films where it's like, the original is great, but it doesn't need that. And yet I think the story of this is strong enough, but the age of this film is gonna keep some people from seeing it. A modern version could let a story that is this fun and interesting, have a new time in the zeitgeist. I think we're all for watching old films here on the Inter Millennium Media project, but I've gotta admit sometimes that old films do not always get the attention they deserve. And there are people who just will not want to watch them. So I, that's why I'm like, give this another shot. [00:57:35] Matthew: Yeah. You're sadly, you're correct about that. Just the fact that this is a, a movie from 80 years ago is enough to turn some people off to it, uh, even though. Mm-hmm. I've got the, uh, the Criterion Collection, uh, a version of this on, I think it's on DVD, not Blu-ray, but it's a beautiful restoration. It looks great. Uh, everything that's good about the filmmaking is, is carried through terrifically. Uh, even the costuming, I think the, the wardrobe in this movie is just so, uh. It's believable and yet is so elevated Hollywood made clothes look great. Um, I I understand what you mean. It's, it's a strong enough story. You absolutely could make a really, really good new movie as a remake of this. I, I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason why, except for what you, what you pointed out in terms of it would, it would make the story more accessible to new audiences. And there's something to be said for that. The original is made so well, it doesn't just have such a good story. It is so well constructed as a movie. I can't think of anything that a, a remake would add that a remake would, would do better than the original did that would bring out of the story something the original wasn't able to. So I could see if you get the, the absolute right cast for these roles. A director who really had an understanding of what made the original work and what you might need to update. I could under, I could see a remake being really good and I'd be interested in seeing that. But in terms of what I would call for and what I would want, I would say rest in peace. Let's try to bring this movie to more people's attention, but it doesn't need to be remade. [00:59:23] Ian: Okay. So, yeah, I, I, I get that. I'm, maybe, I just really want the, you know, the, the Jordan Peel or the A24 pictures version of this, but I, I, I can completely understand wanting to let this be this quintessential version. Right. [00:59:41] Matthew: And I can think of a few directors who could have really interesting takes on this. It would be interesting to see what Jordan Peele would do this. I think he would tend to make it much darker. But he is a director who has some, uh, something of a comedy sensibility as well. Of course. So that would be interesting. Oh yeah. [00:59:58] Ian: Hey, if you wanna take a version of this film where, you take that subtle implication that some people thought was in there mm-hmm. And throw some extra twists and throw some extra depth. Yeah. And have someone like, Jane Schoenbrun who did, I saw the TV Glow or something like that. Oh, they could do some interesting stuff. Recontextualizing the, the subtext some people thought as a potential extra twist to a story like this. [01:00:23] Matthew: That's, that's interesting. And that's another, another interesting take on the idea of a remake. Don't do something that is in any way supposed to take the place of the terrific 1944 movie. Mm-hmm. It's just mm-hmm. Another adaptation of the novel that brings other things out of the story and can stand on its own. Not as a remake of the movie, but as a new adaptation of the novel. I like the idea. And that's a great, yeah. Great choice of a director. It would be interesting to see do that. [01:00:47] Ian: Yeah. Either way. Go see this film. Yes. Yeah. [01:00:51] Matthew: No, whether or not you get to see another version, definitely see the 1944 version. And it's a, it's a great, fun Halloween season movie. Oh [01:01:00] Ian: yeah. If you want something that's spooky, and the right amount is scary, but not unpleasant. You want, you want a horror film, you want a ghost story that you can still go to bed after and not be scared awake. That's a good one. [01:01:17] Matthew: Indeed. Oh yeah. But the Halloween season is just beginning. Mm. We've got another episode on the way in a couple of weeks, and I would say that we're, we're gonna stick to a theme of ghosts and families. [01:01:34] Ian: Ah, I'm excited to see what the next thing is. [01:01:37] Matthew: And visitors, we hope you'll join us in a couple of weeks for another tale of a spooky story from the 20th century. [01:01:44] Ian: In the meantime, go find something new to watch.