0:00 - Pamerson Ifill: You know, I sat in a lot of classrooms at Stonehill and not necessarily always sure where I was going to go or what I'd become, but I knew that while I was here, I was preparing for something much more, much larger than self. 

0:18 - Liam Dacko: Hello and welcome to Stonehill Stories, the official podcast of Stonehill College! I’m your host, Liam Dacko, Class of 2016. For this episode, I sat down with Pamerson Ifill, Class of 1992, who currently leads with justice as Commissioner of the Massachusetts Probation Service. We chat about his time as a professional boxer, his career in criminology, and much, much more.

0:44 - Liam Dacko: To start off, I just wanted to say, you know, thank you so much for joining us. I attended the 75th Anniversary Alumni Panel that you spoke at last year. 

0:54 - Pamerson Ifill: Okay.

0:54 - Liam Dacko: You're a really engaging storyteller. And I knew from that instant hearing you that you'd make a great guest on the podcast. I'm really happy you're here today. 

1:03 - Pamerson Ifill: You know, I'm happy, Liam. It's a pleasure. Anytime I get a chance to sort of share my story, talk a little bit about, not necessarily myself, but hopefully when I talk about my life experiences, that it has an impact or resonates with at least one person. So, I'm glad it was you and happy to come here and share it again, answer any questions you may have. 

1:25 - Liam Dacko: Now to rewind the clock a little, you grew up in Barbados, correct? 

1:31 - Pamerson Ifill: Yes. 

1:32 - Liam Dacko: What was it like growing up there? 

1:34 - Pamerson Ifill: You know, Barbados is one of those places, has an essence of natural childhood, where you're able to play and roam and have fun and not worry about a lot of the fears, I think, that children have here in the U.S. and a lot of other places. And this isn't to say that it hasn't changed in Barbados, but, you know, as little boys, you know, growing up either in the village, on the sugar plantation where we were living and my mother was working, I mean, you'd leave, you'd go to school, come home and you're free to play and run around. I never really did homework back then. And have fun without having to worry about safety or anything. And so, a lot of our activities were of that. We went into the…and here you all call them forests. We call them gullies and we fish and play. We play cricket. We went to the beach. We played, you know…we roasted breadfruit and yam and corn. And so those were sort of how I grew up. 

2:38 - Pamerson Ifill: And as a little boy, you know, then my mother died when I was about nine years old and everything that you thought about growing up and having fun all changed suddenly, you know, so that sort of was the kind of childhood I have. But, and then, you know, at the age of nine, after my mother passed away, she was at 40 years old. We were scattered among several different relatives and family members, or some folks were left on their own. The three older kids had to fend for themselves, but I was living with an aunt, with a younger…with an older brother for about four years. And then I took off and ran back to the home that my mother had died and left us and literally lived, off and on, on my own from the age of 13 until I came to the U.S. and got married at 24. So. 

3:24 - Liam Dacko: Your career in boxing, did that start during that time or was that after you were kind of on your own? 

3:30 - Pamerson Ifill: It started when I was about 17. I got interested in boxing from, you know, somewhere around the age of 15. I mean, as we grew up in the village, you know, you take on and challenge other kids to boxing matches without…bare knuckle boxing. And it soon became apparent, not just to myself, but to anybody who was watching that, that I had an ability to be faster than guys that were bigger than me and stronger than guys that were my size and quicker. So, I was able to use my speed to a lot of those, you know, informal boxing sessions. And suddenly somebody said, “You know, you should think about boxing.” But it didn't happen that way. I got into boxing. I remember Sunday afternoon, this young man was insulting me about my mother who had died from a ruptured appendicitis. I got annoyed at that. We got into a fight. He lost. And so about six months later, I would run into the young man, and we got into another fight, and it didn't end well for him. And a few nights later, you know, there was a knock on the door. I looked out and was living alone at the time. And there were two police cars, and six police officers came out and they asked me about it. And I told them and they had me in the, put me in the back…the cruiser, they were going to take me to the police station. 

4:47 - Pamerson Ifill: Probably would have led to an arrest, but one of the local people who lived in the neighborhood was also a police officer, higher ranking than those guys. And he talked to them, and he asked them to release me. And he would give me two dollars and he would say, “Hey, I need you to meet me at this address because if I don't get you in this address, if I don't get you to stay out of trouble…” And I really wasn't a troublemaker, but, you know, I still liked to fight back then. And he gave me an address and he asked me to meet him a couple of days later. And I met him in the city at the address where he did. As we were walking into the place, I could hear this popping sound, and it was the National Boxing Gym. And he introduced me to a guy by the name of Sam King, who was a national boxing coach. And that began my journey. And within six months, I was fighting for Barbados. Within a year, I came to the U.S. after the U.S. invaded Grenada and became…I was the Kansas City 1986 Golden Gloves Champion. I don't think you were born then, Liam, but…you know, so that was my journey and how I got into boxing. And then I was recruited by the Petronelli Brothers out of Brockton to come here and fight professionally out of Brockton. 

5:50 - Liam Dacko: And Brockton was a huge boxing city. City of Champions. 

5:53 - Pamerson Ifill: Yeah. Marvin Hagler, Rocky Marciano came out of here, but just as much, you know, there are a lot of other folks that came through the Petronelli's gym that also went on to become world champions. So as much as Marvin is the most famous, Rocky Marciano was also one of the most famous names that come out of Brockton. There were a lot of folks that came out of here that went on and won world titles. My career ended as a result of two ruptured discs. But by the time that happened, I was already a student. I was, well, I was a few weeks away from graduation. Ended up retiring after, in 1992, Brockton High School was the last fight I had. But, you know, I had my bachelor's degree. I was working and started to think, you know, maybe I needed to think about other careers because ruptured discs aren't conducive to boxing.

6:39 - Liam Dacko: Right. You know, your transition to America, I mean, I imagine that came with some difficulty. Talk to me a bit about some of the challenges you faced during that time.

6:51 - Pamerson Ifill: A lot of it was financial. I think, you know, sometimes people think because you're boxing, or you're involved in boxing that you're making a lot of money. And that's not true. I mean, boxing is one of those sports you need to be in the top tier to really make a lot of money. The other part of it, I mean, I was living at the Brockton Y at that time. You know, that's where the Petronellis put up all of their fighters. And I was living there on the sixth floor. I still remember room number six, room 615. We're talking 1986 is when I got here. So, ’86, ’87. But nevertheless, a lot of it had to do with, you know, one, the difference in culture, the issue of race, and came out trying to understand that. I mean, I grew up in Barbados. You never heard the word “minority.” Nobody ever, it never even was in your verbal lexicon. So, it wasn't something that you thought about. But when you come here and you run into people and you interact, and I ran into a lot of nice people. I'd say 99.9% of the folks that I ran into had really good intentions. But once in a while, you'd run into people who didn't have your best interests, who thought differently about race and color and ethnicity. So, you know, Barbados and the entire Caribbean have this issue of colorism. I think these are some of the legacies of slavery and how that has played out over the years where people with light skin would end up working in banks and became teachers and lawyers. And that I think is true throughout many places. But it is especially true in the English-speaking Caribbean because of that history of colonialism and how that plays out in preferential. But coming to America and as much as, you know, I dealt with that, I also saw it as a place of really fantastic opportunities because I was able to, you know, start school here, meet some really good people. And so, you know, that is one part of it. 

8:39 - Pamerson Ifill: But the positives that I experienced far outweighed all of the negatives and different interactions. So, absent the issues of race, which as you start to talk and interact with more Americans, you'd realize a lot of folks deal with it. But for me, coming from the Caribbean, I tend to think that I grew up in a place where I really never worried about whether or not somebody said they were better or felt better. I never believed that. So, you know, being an athlete, being a world class athlete, has a way of making sure you know who you are. I never really had to worry about feeling second class or anything to that effect. What I understood, you know, so when I think about my experience, there were some folks when I was living at the Y, there was a guy by the name of Jeff Russell, and he also was a Stonehill graduate. He was one of the executive directors at the Y. He took a real interest in me because I got a job working in one of the juvenile facility units there called the Diagnostic Shelter Care Unit, which is where if kids were arrested by the Department of Youth Services, or they were committed or adjudicated delinquent, they would end up living at the Y in one of their programs. And I started to work there. And I met Jeff on the basketball court one day. And then I came here, for somebody invited me to Stonehill. We ran into each other here again and said, “This would be a great school for you to come to.” He introduced me to the folks over in admissions and financial aid. And so that’s sort of my early transition, but I really started my education at Massasoit. Graduated from Massasoit, came here and enrolled and became a student. So, I think that initial pathway, as much as it was challenging, was also really rewarding because I ran into a lot of folks or a number of folks that were really..not just mentorship, this whole concept of mentorship, but also understood how to provide support and engagement to individuals like myself who have been coming.

10:37 - Liam Dacko: You know, last year, the College actually signed a transfer guarantee agreement with Massasoit. I believe you were involved in getting that deal together, right? 

10:47 - Pamerson Ifill: I was the board chair at Massasoit from…well, I was on the board of Massasoit from 2007 to about 2017. One of the things that I always thought was Stonehill is so close to Massasoit, why aren't there more students coming from Massasoit to Stonehill? And so I've been teaching here for the last four, four and a half years. But about three years ago, I approached the president at Massasoit and I said, “Hey, look, you should think about how you create pathways from Massasoit to Stonehill.” And then I addressed…I met with the provost here and I said the same, had the same conversation and talked to both of them about getting together to have that initial conversation to talk about it. So, we had that meeting here on campus because that's the pathway I took. I came from Massasoit to Stonehill and I thought, you know, everything that I did at Massasoit, I noticed the work there was just as challenging. So, when I came to Stonehill, I realized and through that experience, I'm figuring Massasoit is such a fertile ground for preparing students to take that next step. So, for me, it seemed like a logical solution to sort of getting more students, especially students and young men of color who, you know, have struggled because of the nature of how our systems are set up. And I thought Stonehill would be a great place. So, starting that conversation, I was elated to know that the president and, you know, followed through and met with, you know, the president of Massasoit and the CFO to have that conversation and sign that agreement. 

12:17 - Liam Dacko: Having lived the experience yourself and having been in their shoes, I'm just wondering, what advice do you have for students who are looking to transfer from a place like Massasoit to a place like Stonehill? 

12:28 - Pamerson Ifill: Stonehill, you know, I had a great experience here. You know, it's a welcoming place. It's got good academic rigor, a lot of different programs and opportunities for students. So, I would encourage for any family that, you know, start that route…one, you know, think about Stonehill as a viable option because I think it is a place where children, regardless of background, race, ethnicity, gender orientation, religious background, it's a place where you can come and find yourself and be successful. And, you know, I think the College has done a lot more work in that space and in that area where I think students coming from Massasoit can take advantage. I think there's enough support here to make sure. I think one of the things that will always be important for when those students come in, I think the more mentorship the school can provide and here are the pathways for success. Here is what Stonehill education looks like, but here's what opportunities can be created here. I think it is a win-win for Massasoit. It is a win-win for Stonehill because I think the kids that are going to Massasoit, many of them are coming from marginalized and disadvantaged backgrounds. And I think Stonehill also is a place that they can translate their success at Massasoit, even the greater success here, given the scope of the programs at Stonehill. 

13:50 - Liam Dacko: Since you received your undergraduate degrees from Stonehill, you've had a long career in criminal justice and probation services. Was it always the plan to go down that path? What made that field speak to you? 

14:04 - Pamerson Ifill: You know, I actually was interested at one point in time in going to law school, you know, but then while…after I graduated from Stonehill, I mean, I was working at the Old Colony Y, where I was working as a supervisor. And then once I graduated from here, I found that I had this capacity, but long before I got to Stonehill, of being able to work with young men and women and being able, having had the kinds of difficulties, you know, experience poverty as a young boy, knowing what it is to be the victim of sexual assault, you know, there was something about that kind of work, trying to help others kind of, I don't want to say ignited, but it was sort of, it was really natural. It wasn't something that was difficult, the capacity and ability to talk to young children and young men and women. You know, once you were able to talk to children and basically understanding them and get them to think about seeing other pathways, not getting involved in delinquency or having a voice to speak for themselves, you know, that was sort of what drove and ignited my passion for that work and got me set on that pathway. Started working at the Y in 1987. And I've been working, you know, working with juveniles who were court involved, but I've been working in the criminal justice, the criminal legal system for the last 37 years. But a lot of that really is about working with people who, not unlike myself, if somebody didn't step in and provide them with some opportunities and supports and mentorship, wouldn't have been successful. So, I think that is sort of what spurred me down that path and still keeps me motivated today, the same as I was 37 years ago. 

15:52 - Liam Dacko: Now Stonehill's mission is obviously very focused on helping students learn the skills that will enable them to create a more just and compassionate world. You're obviously living out that mission every day. Just wondering, what does a just and compassionate world look like to you? 

16:10 - Pamerson Ifill: I think a lot of this really is about access and opportunity. So many of the people that I work with and that are involved in the criminal legal system, when we do assessments, we do something called an indigency assessment to determine the ability to afford an attorney. But that look alone tells you that in many of our locations, more than 60-70% of the folks are living somewhere at the poverty or below the poverty line. So, it tells me, and from my own experience, people who are left behind socially or economically or find themselves struggling for basic survival, they create these alternative economies. You know, we're motivated by food, clothing, shelter, self-actualization, all of Maslow’s hierarchy needs. But at any time, any one of those pathways are truncated, people still need to survive. So much of what I do is driven by the desire to know that I know that if not for the grace of God, there goes I. And so, I think when we're talking about justice and fair society or anything, we're really talking about making sure that people have the kinds of supports and services and access and opportunity. So, we're talking about quality early education, we're talking about housing, we're talking about employment, we're talking about food security, all of those things for me, regardless of what somebody's race, ethnicity, gender, and any of the other dimensions of diversity are, making sure that everybody has the same opportunities to thrive. And I think Stonehill is a place, I think as much as we can do, I think we can continue to do more on that path to bring students from those kinds of backgrounds and provide more opportunity because I think it just enriches not just the College, but everybody's lives. 

17:59 - Liam Dacko: Now, Pamerson, you were named Commissioner of the Massachusetts Probation Service in 2023. I'm curious, what type of leadership style have you exercised in that role? What sort of leadership style do you think you bring to the table? 

18:14 - Pamerson Ifill: So, you know, there's any number of different types of leadership styles, but I'm really into consensus building, and I think it is important to communicate with your team and the folks that are around you, but I'd like to say compassionate leadership because at the end of the day, it is about how we help people, how we, you know, provide them with the kinds of supports and tools to live meaningful lives, but how we also know and understand what accountability is. So, we need to have systems that use data and qualitative analysis to determine outcomes and use the science and the research to affect people and affect better outcomes. You know, one of the challenges that in the world of probation, as Commissioner of Probation, you know, we can get it right 99 times. If we get it wrong one time, sometimes more often than not, just by that one, you know, failure. And so a lot of this is really about how, you know, as a leader, how I communicate, how I support, how I engage, how I build consensus with my team. But at the end of the day, this is about how we provide better access to justice outcomes for individuals who either some system has failed them, including sometimes their own decision-making and the actions they take. And I try to make sure that as an organization that one, we provide the kinds of supports to help people be successful, but at the same time, make sure that we ensure public safety by holding people who violate the conditions accountable. So as a leader, it is important to be able to understand both sides of those spectrums. We want to provide opportunity, we want to provide access, but we also need to be able to make sure we create the kind of safety that people. So, I think as a leader, a big part of my job is to provide a vision, mission, make sure my team understand the values of the organization, then how to translate that into probation system that really support people and provide access to justice outcomes for everyone that comes in contact with it. 

20:18 - Liam Dacko: And I'm sure a lot of those compassionate leadership qualities, you're using them in your work in the criminal justice system, but you're probably also utilizing them at Stonehill in the classroom. You serve as an adjunct professor here. Tell me about the classes you teach and, you know, what's it like juggling a full-time role with being an adjunct professor? 

20:40 - Pamerson Ifill: Well, the juggling is always a juggle, but I have never had a single job ever since I've gotten to America. I've always worked more than one job. So, the juggling and the time management is the least of my worries. I currently am teaching “Probation and Parole and “American Street Gangs” in the fall. In the spring, I teach “Probation and Parole” and “Race, Racial Justice and Equity.” When I'm teaching here, I spend a lot of time talking to kids more about not necessarily their Stonehill experience, but what that is preparing for them for when they leave here. So, I try to bring a lot of real-world experience. I talk about the work that we do, the people that we see. I talk about the need for students to have a much broader understanding about race, gender, ethnicity, about cultural competence, about, you know, having the skillsets to be able to work with diverse populations at every level. Because, you know, the program that I'm teaching is in the criminal justice program here. And I need students that when they leave here on day one, regardless of where they're working, they have the capacity and the ability to be empathetic and understanding and be able to connect with the populations, regardless of what that population look like, what that people look like, what regardless of what neighborhood and zip code, because we make broad assumptions about people living in certain areas and neighborhoods and, you know, based on socioeconomic factors. And if you do that, you're going to bring your kinds of biases and stereotypes that play out. 

22:12 - Pamerson Ifill: So, I try to help students understand that it is important that when they're, that the jobs that they are thinking about in the careers that they're thinking about, that they need to really approach it where they see the value in other people, regardless of the mistakes. I don't judge people by one incident or two incidents or whatever incidents there before you, you see them first as a human being. If you treat them and engage them with respect, you're more likely able to help them be successful as opposed to make judgment surpass judgment. So, I think, you know, when I'm teaching the students, I'm really interested in them working as teams because I do a lot of teamwork and a lot of group projects because that's the real world. But part of this is being able to work and connect the dots with people. And the more you're comfortable talking with all different types of people, the better you are at being successful in whatever career path you pick.

23:08 - Liam Dacko: And I'm sure throughout your time here as a teacher, you've, through those lessons, have empowered your students to go on to discover their calling. Looking back on your career and reflecting on all the experiences you've had, what would you say your calling is? 

23:24 - Pamerson Ifill: You know, what I do is informed by my lived experiences. I mean, you know, again, growing up as a boy and, you know, one day life is happy-go-lucky. Then the next day your mother's dead and gone and you're, you know, living, trying to make sense of that. I think what it teaches you, one, that, you know, nothing is guaranteed. And so, it is important to plan and prepare and be focused, but at the same time, take time to enjoy life and find companionship in other people. And so, I enjoy, you know, being around folks and talking to folks. I think when some people say to me, “Well, how are you able to manage?” And you just ask the question, you know, “How are you, you know, working a full-time job and teaching?” I come to Stonehill to relax, believe it or not, to get away from sometimes the difficult challenges that we see in the criminal justice system. And so, I get a chance to talk to a group of students with fresh minds, wide-open perspectives in most instances.

24:35 - Liam Dacko: It's a really excellent approach. Pamerson, before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. It's been great chatting with you, and I look forward to seeing what you and your students do next.

24:48 - Pamerson Ifill: Well, thank you, Liam. Like I said, I appreciate the opportunity to come in again, share the story and hopefully it is meaningful to folks. I think the one thing that I, you know, if I'd leave as a takeaway is really that this is a place where you can be, you can have an impact on the rest of the world. I mean, you know, I sat in a lot of classrooms at Stonehill and not necessarily always sure where I was going to go or what I'd become, but I knew that while I was here, I was preparing for something much more, much larger than self. When I think back about being here and thinking back about what I want to offer or share with students is that this is a place where you can rise. 


25:38 - Liam Dacko: Thank you for listening to Stonehill Stories! This podcast is produced by Jill Goddard and Liam Dacko of Stonehill College’s Office of Communications and Media Relations. Intro theme composed by Associate Professor of Music James Bohn. Outro theme composed by Philip Pereira. Graphic design assistance provided by Colin Spencer. To discover more about Stonehill College, visit our website at Stonehill.edu.