Behind the Ops Episode 21 === Intro: You are listening to Behind the Ops presented by Tulip. Madi: Hey everyone. Welcome to season four of Behind the Ops. This season you can expect more discussions of hot topics facing manufacturing and tech on location specials and more. I'm excited to introduce Tulip co-founder and CEO, Natan Linder, who will be joining as my new co-host. Natan, did you realize that March is International Women's Month? Natan: Yes, I have two daughters and, uh, we're acutely aware of this month and its importance. Madi: A little tricky on my end since I know that you know what International Women's Month is. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Since we've celebrated both International Women's Day and Women's History Month at Tulip every year that I've been here. But I do have some fun facts about its background if you'd like to hear them. So women have been working towards suffragists having an International Women's Day, which was originally a day and week since the early 1900s globally. And in 1980, in the States, Jimmy Carter recognized the week of March 8th as International Women's Week. And then in 1987, Congress recognized the month of March as Women's Month. That's only 36 years old. It is a millennial holiday. Natan: A millennial holiday. Madi: If it were a person, it would be a millennial in that sense. Yeah. Natan: So it's not just millennials. Madi: No, no. It's inclusive of everyone. And also, you know, women in the 1900s were pushing for this, but it's, it hasn't been around very long. Natan: Well, it's about time. No? Madi: Yeah. I think it's a great time to kind of reflect on women's history, important voices. I think the theme this year, which is, you know, kismet since we're doing this podcast is about media and women telling stories. And I thought it would be interesting for us to tell some stories about women in tech and women in manufacturing, kind of the state of women's inclusion in those sectors. Natan: Yeah, I think every time you and I at least talk about this, and it's like, it's not that there's not enough talking about this. It's like there's not enough action about this stuff. So hopefully this is a form of action too. Madi: Yeah, I think our, our two objectives here, one, we should be honest about it cause we work in tech and I think tech and manufacturing are similar in a lot of ways with the stats. And both women in these sectors and women in leadership roles in these sectors. So there's a lot of room to do better and we're kind of in the inside there where we can speak to that. And the other side is like some data. So we did a little bit of, of research to, to back the, the sentiment up here. Natan: Yeah. So should we get into the numbers? Madi: Yeah, let's get into the numbers. So, uh, women make up about 47% of the American workforce, but only about 30% of the manufacturing workforce. And that 30% gets smaller when you look at women in management positions and manufacturing, it's closer to one in 4 or 25%. But women in manufacturing earn on average 16% more than the national median income from employed women. And about 75% of women in manufacturing roles would recommend manufacturing to other women. Natan: Yeah, there are great jobs in manufacturing. I think sometimes that manufacturing is considered with like the most ridiculous stereotypes, you know, like, um, hard labor or like, this is not a place where women should be working and thinking about it today, obviously ridiculous, but basically manufacturing is like a bed rep. Madi: Which is so interesting when you think about the historical context. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Both for tech and manufacturing, right? Like if you look, uh, I wanna say like 40 years ago, you have a lot more women in engineering roles and math roles, and that's evolved negatively over time. But let's talk about the, the history a little bit. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Because I think there's like an iconic, historic moment for women in manufacturing. Especially around World War II. Natan: Yeah. Madi: So during World War II, a ton of women went into manufacturing roles, about 6 million of them, and then afterwards you have about a 42% decline following the end of World War II for a variety of reasons. Right? Natan: Yeah. I think that we should be very honest with ourself what happened. It's like the men came back from war and gender roles kicked in, and this is sort of late forties, fifties and on, and they wanted their jobs back and they wanted women home. That's just like what it is. You know, I had discussions around this with all sorts of folks and there was this question like, oh, what did women do? And you know, you know what the answer is? Madi: Everything. Natan: Everything , everything. But you know what, they didn't do, even those who stayed, and I think you have the numbers for how many stayed actually, like real numbers. Madi: Yeah. I mean if there's like a 42% decline, then you know, the remainder would've stayed. Natan: Yeah. So several millions. Madi: Yeah. Natan: How many became leaders in manufacturing? You know, so those who stayed, it's not like they gotta keep their job. Madi: Mm-hmm. Natan: They actually got demoted. Can you think about like you're, you're not only part of that organization after you kinda literally held the line and made bombers and tanks and munitions and whatever is needed. You made money. And you had financial freedom and you're participating, like you're doing good things and suddenly the war's over and either you lose your job and the society pressure around it, you know, comes along. Or if you choose to stay, you get demoted. It's pretty fucked up. Madi: And I think when we're talking about this, these like factors and the way that they impact women's ability to like continue to participate in and excel in manufacturing, it's easy to be like, this was World War II, this was 1950s. It's not like this anymore, but if we were to abstract it out, right, the things you're talking about are not having supportive path to management positions. Natan: Right. Madi: Not having flexibility or societal support for caretaking responsibilities with gender roles. And let's bring it to the 2000s, right? So yeah, talking about numbers, uh, we also pulled numbers and job flows for women in manufacturing from 2000 to 2021. And if you look at the numbers there, you see really sharp declines between 2008, 2010, which you're familiar with. Major event happening then. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Major recession. Natan: Major recession. Madi: Major recessions end up, uh, impacting women's workforce participation and caretaking responsibility. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Major social change. And then we see it happen again during 2020. So Covid, another shock to the shock to the system. Natan: There's lot, lots of kids at home. Madi: So when we're thinking about growing numbers of women, of those that are participating in the workforce, I think there's like two things. And you alluded to one earlier, the pipeline problem, like how do we get women into manufacturing roles? Natan: Yeah. Madi: And the second is, and you can see that with the drop off between participation and leadership roles, how do you retain women in manufacturing and make it a place that is inclusive of a variety of genders? Natan: Yeah. So, you know, the, the first thing, and I think it's true for tech and true for manufacturing, is like having a growing number of role models. And, you know, I'm, I'm kind of remembering now, when we brought Karen Care from, um, GE. Madi: Mm-hmm. Natan: Ex-GE, uh, was now running her own venture fund, used to run GE's venture fund and before that, did a bunch of roles finance, and she's in a manufacturing company. Her story and how she evolved, and there are many others and, and we won't do justice, but they're not enough. So like we need great role models that pave the way, and that's just, that's the thing. Basic. The other big thing is designing workplaces that can deal with what women need to be successful, including how to allow for caregiving alongside a very successful career, for example. Madi: I think that's so interesting that like when you look at, there's this great research report by Thomas Net and Women in Manufacturing organization, which we'll put in the show notes, but when you look at what employees overall in manufacturing are looking for, for benefits from their companies and what women specifically are looking for, it's one-to-one on everything with a higher emphasis on flexible scheduling. Natan: Yeah. Madi: For women. Natan: Right. And this is, I think specifically in manufacturing, though, which, you know, could be very rigid, you know, shifts and the cadence of the operation, all that kind of stuff doesn't necessarily lend itself to it. If you just think very traditionally, you know, this is how we've done thing for the past 40 years. And, oh, if you can't meet the schedule, then you're not gonna have a job here, that's something [00:09:00] that can change. You know, you can figure out how to do different type of shift design and you can figure out how to do caregiving at the workplace, and you know, of course, great companies attach daycares and whatnot, by the way, for both parents. Like, you know, I have three kids, you know, I'm a caregiver too, but it's, um, it's not a symmetric situation and we should not pretend it is. Madi: There was another thing you said earlier that I wanted to follow up on. You'd mentioned role models. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And how seeing people in certain roles is like reinforcing. And what I would add to that is, you know, I think it's great to see exceptional women, but not every woman in an industry needs to be exceptional. Like sometimes you just need to have a community of people and peers. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And one thing that stood out to me about this report in manufacturing is paths to manufacturing. Natan: Yeah. Madi: If you look at the number one way that women get into manufacturing, it's through direct applying, which means they have an intention to come into the industry. Natan: You're looking for a job. Madi: Looking for a specific job, probably train for that job. But when you look at men's number one path into industry, it's from a referral. And so I think it's like an underlying and kind of maybe more ominous piece of what you're pointing out with role models where it's, it's not just individuals, but a lack of community and peers of people who are bringing women into manufacturing. And that if you have, you know, not very many women in manufacturing, that in a lot of ways that needs to come from men and recruiting in firms. Natan: Yes. And the way you kind of manifest this is like having diverse recruiting practices that can potentially overcome this. I mean, the men referring men problem, the question is like, why is that not happening with women? So one answer is like, there's just not enough of them. Madi: Yes. Natan: And the other reason is likely that, uh, it's tough to say this collectively about men, but like, you know, hey, trust this person. I know him is a friend of mine, [00:11:00] let's hire that person. You know, and that, that's like a guy thing. I don't know. But, uh. Madi: I think it's normal though. Like I, I think it's normal for people to, to have friendships with people who are like them. And it just becomes limiting for companies if you're only relying on social networks. Natan: Yeah, but see where I was going with this is like, if that's the case and it's in a large scale phenomena, doesn't it create like an inherent bias? We would hire more men as a result, other than the fact that, you know, the table is set wrong, obviously, and all that, but do you know what I mean? So it's like... Madi: I hear what you're saying. I have a great quote actually from an article. Natan: Uhhuh. Madi: About this. Uh, so, uh, this article, it's an entrepreneur.com, will link it in the show notes, but, uh, a lot of women surveyed in this article were explaining why they didn't return to work after pregnancy, or why they left jobs after a few months. Um, and choice quote here is some women felt that their work environments were discriminatory, but most reported something milder. The simple discomfort of not fitting in in an otherwise homogenous setting. Natan: Yeah. Madi: It may not sound like a big deal if you're used to being in the majority, but it was enough to drive many qualified engineers to quit. Natan: Yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying. If it's like, if it's a friend who bring a friend who bring a friend, and it's like, it creates like this set of people pretty similar because they're friends, destroys diversity in a way that is very detrimental at a large scale. Madi: I wanna also talk about pattern matching and support for people who are earlier in their careers. When they're unique or different from the rest of the, uh, the team. So one of the things while we're prepping for this episode, uh, that came up in a few different articles is this idea of women being over mentored and under sponsored. So where people are comfortable giving guidance on what to do, but not advocating for new projects or championing success on different projects, and often isolating them in areas where they would support. Natan: Yeah. Madi: Someone who's more similar to them. Natan: You know, you're asking the question, but you should actually answer it because you're growing in the workforce now and you are a woman and you should talk about your experiences. I kind of had exposure from early age to my mother, like a phenomenal career person and like my entire model is, uh, very biased by that. That's how I grew up. You know, a scientist, doctor, pharmacologist teacher type person. You know, when you talk about like, how did that go? Like you over mentor and under sponsored, that's really scary to me. Madi: I think the thing that resonates about this quote is like the... Natan: I, I believe it, by the way, but it terrifies me. Madi: It's also a lack of intention. I think that's the scary part, right. It's an outcome not tied to a negative intention. And so if you don't have an intention to drive that outcome, how do you prevent it from happening? And I think it's fair for us to be introspective about Tulip. Cuz when you remember, it's like five years ago now when I joined Tulip, much smaller team, much fewer women. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And so I think there were like, five women at Tulip when I joined and being the first or one of the only is very isolating and uncomfortable. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And oftentimes people don't want to start that, but that's how you diversify teams and even companies, I was interviewing a lot of different companies, including like a women's health company, which is like majority women versus Tulip, but you meet people and you like, you gauge their values when you're interviewing. Like, how would I fit on the team? And people could have, you know, similar values and be supportive and it still be uncomfortable and difficult. And it takes some time for organizations to evolve. Like there were three marketers when I started and now there's like 23, majority of which are women. And there's a much larger percentage of women at Tulip than when I first started. And that's evolution. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And that also changes the way it feels to be a woman at Tulip. Just cuz I see them walking around, you know? Natan: And a leader. Madi: Yeah. And a leader at Tulip, which, you know, when I first started I wasn't, uh, to start right. I was an IC, but it's relatable and there's maybe two things if I'm like speaking from experience to like give a suggestion, right? So like one, you demonstrated this earlier, it could be difficult to empathize with people that experience stuff that you don't. Natan: Or that you can't. Madi: Right. Natan: It is what it is. You know? Madi: Yeah, I think that's a better way to put it. Like empathy is easy when it's someone like you, or easier maybe. Empathy is always a little complex, but it is especially difficult to empathize with someone who experiences something that you can't, and if you care about this topic, I think that that's something to think about and reflect on how you can try to get better at that, even if it's a process. And then the second part is maybe an advice [00:16:00] to women who are considering careers in tech and manufacturing tech. The like suspicion that it will be difficult is probably true, but there's also a lot of upside. And so sometimes you have to be a little uncomfortable to access that and it gets better. Natan: I think that, I don't know if it's realistic or a little bit, you know, solemn kind of thing to say, but it's like the alternative is much worse, you know, if there's real passion and it's like not doing it because uh, the organizations are biased toward men or don't know how to hire diversely or don't have the right ratio, if we want stuff to change, then deciding not to do it is actually worse. It doesn't make it easier, but I think that's the reality. Madi: Yeah. That there's like a, a cost and and loss for inaction. Natan: Yeah. It's basically the cost of inaction. Exactly. Madi: Yeah. Natan: That's the main thing. There's been lot, lots of books on this topic, you know, all the way from the beginning. Women liberation, you [00:17:00] know, we haven't checked it, but like talk about voting rights. Maybe we take it for granted. But a couple generations ago, they still remember. Madi: Yeah, my mother-in-law went to an all women's college because there were only all women's colleges. You know, it's, it's not so far back. Natan: It's not so far back. Madi: Well, I wanna end us on a positive note cause I think there's a lot to be excited about. So first positive note is on the pipeline problem. Recent years, 50% of STEM students in colleges are women so outlook is looking good. So for those of you thinking about recruiting and how you're structuring your teams, you know, focus on how to attract that talent so you don't lose great STEM folks to consulting firms and other careers that will happily hire them. And then the second is I wanted to give us both space to shout out ladies that we know that are heroes and doing great things in manufacturing, cuz we work with so many of them female leaders in manufacturing. I have a couple that I, I wanted to specifically shout out: Jane Arnold, who is an amazing operational tech leader and thought leader. Great speaker too, if you ever have an opportunity to hear from her at a conference. Natan: Yeah. Madi: And the second is Dana Grayson, who is both a leader in venture capital and doing very innovative things with her firm in the industrial SAAS space. Natan: Yeah. And Dana led our series A while she was in NEA and I'd say she's one of the early trend-setting venture capitalists at the time that invested in advanced manufacturing technologies, aka Industry 4.0. Madi: Mm-hmm. Natan: Before people like actually knew that this buzzword is a thing. She's done a lot of great things in the space, so tons of respect to Dana, for sure. Madi: And I'm sure there are folks that we aren't giving personal relationship shout outs to now that we should know about. So all of our listeners definitely shoot us a, an email or, or leave those in the comments. We'd love to, to hear about them. Natan: Absolutely. Madi: All right, next time. Natan: Next time. Outro: Behind the Ops is brought to you by Tulip. Connect the people, machines, devices, and systems used in your production and logistics processes with our frontline operations platform. Visit tulip.co to learn more. This show is produced by Gaby Elanbeck, and edited by Thom Obarski. If you enjoyed listening, support the show by leaving us a quick rating or review. It really helps. If you have feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at behindtheops@tulip.co.