Rob (00:00) You can draw a line in the sand the moment people's managers started showing up in their Instagram bios. And that is when there is a shift in any reality show, especially Vanderpump Rules. When season five hits and Brittany Cartwright has emailed my manager for press releases in her or whatever in her Instagram bio, we're done. You're done. Madelyn (00:08) Mmm. Madelyn (00:32) Hello, welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Really excited for our guest today. It's a little bit of a departure from my typical guest. ⁓ I have Rob Schulte on who is the host of Vanderpump Robs. He has been named a Vanderpump Rules expert by NBC. And I really wanted to have Rob on because I want to talk about how fan culture online commentary is actively shaping the narratives in reality TV. We see it on Mormon wives. We're seeing it play out in a lot of different shows. And I just thought it'd be interesting to have him come on and talk about not only how Vanderpump also like set the blueprint when it comes to ensemble reality, but how difficult it is to get new ensemble reality shows like Southern Hospitality up and running and off the ground doing well because of the precedent that the lightning in a bottle cast that Vanderpump So this is a really fun, just casual reality lovers conversation with Rob Schulte of the Vanderpump Robs podcast. Madelyn (01:44) Rob Schulte, host of Vanderpump Rob's podcast. Welcome to the unscripted files. How you doing? Rob (01:50) I'm having a terrific year. This is great. I'm so thankful to be here. Madelyn (01:56) so good. It's a good year for reality TV. It's rare that I have another podcast or on the show. So it's actually, I'm actually so excited to talk to you. and Rob (02:02) able to bring that podcaster energy that everyone loves. Madelyn (02:07) Yes, exactly. you have one of the number one reality show podcasts out there at Vanderpump Robs. That's what the accolades are saying. I need to know what inspired you to start this show because you are a podcast producer like By Trade. You've done podcasts, you've worked with Conan, you've done the thing. What made you go, I want to make... Rob (02:14) That's what they're saying. The people are saying this. Madelyn (02:31) one myself and I want to make it about Vanderpump rules. Like talk to me about the origin story here. Rob (02:35) before I was like with Conan, or SiriusXM, I worked on a podcast with a couple of buddies of mine who just hit 10 years in the biz. So shout out to the greatest generation podcast. was a Star Trek podcast and I was not a Star Trek fan. Like it's not that I didn't hate it or anything. I just, it wasn't anything I watched growing up and they did one of the funniest recap podcasts. I had heard and they asked me to help them because they were doing like a companion show to it and had a couple other irons in the fire and you know they just needed help with editing and production. So I came on I listened to their show and I was like wow it doesn't like part of me was like it doesn't really matter what you recap if you have a good host dynamic. And as I worked with them for a while I had dipped my toe into like. Madelyn (03:23) Hmm. Rob (03:28) you know, generic TV show recap podcast here, horror movie recap podcast here. Nothing really was scratching that itch for me. And then I got into Vanderpump Rules and I was like, look, I'll just try doing a Vanderpump Rules rewatch podcast kind of in the style of what Ben and Adam from the Greatest Generation do. And it really took off. Now, I would do it seasonally. It was not like a passion project of mine, or maybe it was a passion project. wasn't. paying any bills, we'll put it that way. And over time, I just kind of refined it to be what it is today. And now it's just a fun place where I hang out with my co-host, Kate Shapiro, and we have a good time recapping Vanderpump Rules, Southern Charm, anything that's kind of new happening in the moment. But we do have to be selective because I can't recap everything. I want to still have fun doing it. Madelyn (03:57) Mm-hmm. had to recap every Bravo show out there, I fear that this would be your full-time job, and it still might not pay very much. Rob (04:26) I... I mean, you can tell. Yeah, I'm saying you can tell the people who do try and recap absolutely everything on Bravo. And I mean, call me a hater. They're not that exciting of podcasts because they're just trying to jam so much into it and also trying to keep like. And this is my personality that goes with it. It's like, don't either cut a show or add the personality part to it, but we can't have all of it. Madelyn (04:56) are you a Love Islander? If you want to delve, okay, which is like for the US version, it's a couple episodes a week, UK, it's much more. Keeping up with both is insane. But if you want to dive into Love Island this summer, I will co-host it with you. I will watch every episode. am like leading, I'm like leading viewings with my friends, but that, like the Love Island, even just that show would be so crazy. Rob (04:57) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hahaha! Ugh. That is, Love Island alone is a show where it's like, also, am I recapping every episode of Love Island? Sometimes, like, nothing happens you And then, like, yeah, but it is, it's incredible. the, you know, some shows do it really, really well, and I think I get in my own head too much on that sort of thing, which is why I just like, I love having... Madelyn (05:27) Maybe a weekly is better. Rob (05:40) a good format that makes me feel comfortable and happy to hop behind them. Madelyn (05:45) you've gotten so in your pocket with Vanderpump, with Charm. mean, NBC deemed you a Vanderpump Rules expert, which like, it sounds funny, but it's actually very serious. Vanderpump Rules is in and of itself a pillar, not only in reality TV, but in entertainment in general. Like there are so many moments on the show, and we can talk about that in a minute, that are like cultural resets for the industry and for pop culture. I mean, what does it mean to know a show deeply? Rob (06:05) Mm-hmm. I would say there's a big thing, I think, in most fandom. But if I want to just specifically put it to Bravo and Vanderpump rules where there's like a fear of the take, right, of the, no, I don't want to like upset the fandom. And that just doesn't even cross my my radar at all. if I have a take, if my co-host has a take, we talk about it and oftentimes we have different takes or we convince the other person of why we think our take is the best take. And that doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day. Like you can love it or hate it. But I think that helps you or helps me at least broaden how I absorb the show. Because if You might be seeing this online. You might be experiencing this personally. A lot of people are not interested in the new cast of Vanderpump Rules because they're so loyal to the original cast, whatever that means, right? Is Lala original cast? Is James Kennedy original cast? So a lot of people are online getting Madelyn (07:27) Right, right, that's so true. Rob (07:32) upvotes or a lot of social clout because they'll make fun of the new season because it's not the classic season. And that is like a safe take to have because they know it'll get them attention from that sort of thing. Well, I didn't go in there. So like I was, you know, who knows? I don't know if I'm going to like the show until I watch it or not. And I think that potentially I'm deemed an expert because I. I'm not afraid to like be beholden to the fandom. And when NBC News had said that about me was a little after Scandival had happened and was starting to subside a little bit. think they were still doing articles. And I remember specifically talking with one of my guests at the time about, well, let's just put ourself. in Rachel Levis's shoes. You know, like most hated woman on reality TV, which says something for Bravo. And we kind of just walked through a scenario of like, well, why would you do something that like could blow up in your face? Right? Like Tom Sandoval is an idiot, but like, is, why is, would, and the amount of like vitriol we got from that episode, just trying to even just explore from her Madelyn (08:50) justify, yeah. Rob (08:52) position of why it might have been a good idea to her. Like you can't even think about potentially siding with someone who was a home wrecker, right? And I think it's being able to do that sort of thing in a very long-winded way to at least be on the precipice of expertise. Madelyn (09:14) Sure. there are so many conversations that happen around these events. And typically, people will fall in a bandwagon of a particular thought process about who's villain, who's a hero, who's a narcissist, ⁓ whatever. And it's nice that you try to protect your read a little bit and just are like, Rob (09:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Madelyn (09:36) live in your own lane, right? And if that falls within some larger fan theories or fan thoughts, like great, but you really try to stay in your own lane and objectively look at these people as people and humans and try to like break down and analyze their behavior, which I think a lot of people do, but they're doing it and they're coming up with an answer in less than 140 characters. And like that's never really gonna get to the root of it. And so you getting to explore Rob (09:37) Sure. Madelyn (10:01) human behavior in a longer format, I think really does lend itself to you being an expert and knowing these characters and knowing these people deeply. Rob (10:10) Yeah, and I'm not afraid to change my mind either. I think that becomes a big part of it too. Madelyn (10:13) Mmm. Yeah, who is there a particular cast member that you can think of where you kind of did change your mind about them Rob (10:26) Well, Tom Sandoval is the biggest one, but I never even, it's not even like that I was like die hard Tom Sandoval. He just within the edit and within the, let's be frank, the misogynistic nature of a lot of Bravo TV shows was always like kind of forgiven and kind of like presented as this level-headed. Madelyn (10:27) Well, yeah. Rob (10:51) guy who's a truth teller, but not in a way that like a James Kennedy truth teller where he's just trying to like rile people up and make fun of them. But then you kind of, know, Scannable happens and that creates the rift. And then you kind of go back and you're like, wow, this guy like yells at ladies a lot. Like, how did I not see this edit the entire time I was watching the show? But even even someone like Kristen Doty. Madelyn (10:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rob (11:15) Right? Like you, when you're really sucked into the early seasons of Vanderpump Rules, you fall into that like, look at this crazy person, right? Like they're just, they can't even understand that they're coming off so terribly. And then when they're vindicated 10 years later, you're like, wow. Okay. I guess I too have been really passionate about something that made me look like a crazy person. Madelyn (11:23) Yep. Yep. Rob (11:41) and was not vindicated for any of that even though I know I'm true. Madelyn (11:46) Right, yes. even just a show going on for this long and us getting to watch characters for over a decade, even the way I think that as viewers, as people, we learn to talk about pop culture and characters in a very like two-dimensional way. She's crazy, whatever. And then we like, I feel like as a society, we also grow and are able to like, see people as multi-dimensional and also Rob (11:59) Sure. Yeah. Madelyn (12:08) It's so rare that you have payoffs at a show that have been simmering for years and years and years and years because shows don't get to even be on the air that long anymore. They cut them after season one, two, three. And just having those payoffs after years and years is just, and getting to watch these characters and also changing as a viewer as well. And trying to have a bigger conversation I think is important. What, mean, what I... Rob (12:13) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (12:35) love about Vanderpump and as a development producer, I get brought shows all the time of like, this friend group here, it's so much drama or these women here, they're basically housewives. But the bar is so, so high because of Vanderpump. It's high because they struggled with the casting. It's high because like we just talked about these layers and layers of Rob (12:53) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (13:00) scandal and lies and betrayal and these payoffs that occur are just so phenomenal. It's hard to imagine those with any other show. do you feel like Vanderpump still sets the bar for ensemble reality? And what do you feel like they got right that other new shows, when you look at Southern hospitality or even charm, even though we can consider that a little bit of an OG or like Rob (13:22) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (13:26) What do you feel like Vanderpump got right that these new shows are like not able to replicate? Rob (13:30) Well, it's interesting that you bring up Southern hospitality because I think they have gotten a majority of that correct, but it still took them a couple of seasons. Vanderpump's good. And look, everyone else will shout this from the mountaintops as well, because there was a core group of friends there that were going out drinking, doing drugs, having fun, like doing things that early 20 somethings people do. Right. Like that is it's fine. dating, hooking up, fighting, all of these things happen because you don't, the weight of the world is not on you yet. You don't have a job that could be put in jeopardy because your job is doing this thing, essentially. You know, lot of, like, look at the you know, the canceled Housewives of New York, the reboot that they tried to do, right? Like, no one cares about these people. No one... Madelyn (14:03) Mm-hmm. Rob (14:20) I mean, like they might have some good personalities, but they don't know each other. It doesn't have the weirdness that some other housewives connections have. Like there was no it factor for it. Southern. Yeah, the unifier was very, very weak and it can't just be the city, right? That that works, I think, more for young people. Madelyn (14:33) Like, no, like you feel like the unifier was very weak. Mm. Mm. Rob (14:46) because they're up and coming and they have something to strive for, but when you don't have something to strive for to live, then what am I watching, right? ⁓ Madelyn (14:46) Mm. Right. But even look at what, Next Gen New York. It was young, it was wealth, was proximities to celebrity. And it also just didn't, yeah. Rob (14:59) Yeah. And I would say it's hit or miss because the people who love Next Gen love Next Gen. But I have not heard a lot of people say that. ⁓ And I think that's a problem too, whereas there isn't a unifier there either. And that's the hard, I think that's the entry point too, right? Like you need to have a unifier that asks people to come in. And even if Southern Hospitality's, quote, unifier is Madelyn (15:09) Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Rob (15:32) Vanderpump rules in Charleston. That's at least something I can latch onto. And then you watch it and you're like, oh, this is not Vanderpump rules in Charleston, but I like these people. I like these people a lot. to charm, like the problem with Southern Charm is, you know, up until about season five, like season five and on, it is a different show. Like it is not the Southern Charm it began with. For probably, Madelyn (15:38) Mm-hmm. Rob (16:02) overall a net good in terms of society, but maybe not in entertainment. And that is because people like to watch trashy stuff and that's fine. Madelyn (16:12) I was gonna say is that solely because of Katherine and Thomas being out? Yeah. Rob (16:14) Exactly, pretty much. know, like on Vanderbilt Brabs the other day, we had a caller ask us to do a Mount Rushmore of Evil Bravo Men. we're like, Thomas Ravenel is right on top of that, you know? And that's fun. That's fun for us because we have that distance, but not because it's like good for society. And charm has a problem now because... Madelyn (16:26) Dude, yeah. Rob (16:39) you know, it's all based around this idea, you know, even if Madison and Venita and, whoever's, you know, I guess Molly's been a great character so far are there. Like it already, the show started from like a Southern gentleman perspective and sorry. I mean, I hate Craig, but a lot of people love Craig and I also don't want to see like. aging men be Peter Pan for seasons upon seasons upon. There's only so many times we can be like, wow, is Shep gonna be in a relationship this year? And so there's no unifying factor there. Madelyn (17:12) Sure. yes, I I agree. think early days of charm were so strong. I do like some of the new care. Like I love, I like Charlie. I like Molly. I love Molly, but you know how I feel about Molly. Molly's so good, dude. I need Molly on Traitors immediately. Like I think that'd be such a great move for her, especially after being on ANTM. Anyway, but I agree. think... Rob (17:28) I like Molly too. I like Molly too. Yeah. Yes. Madelyn (17:42) Do you feel like it's because so a lot of a lot of the commentary around like reality shows just don't do it like they used to is because it feels like our characters are too aware of their image. Like they're just too like like that the early days of Vanderpump and charm. It was just no holds barred because no one was getting brand it like the brand deals weren't really a thing yet. Not everyone was a personal brand and there wasn't it didn't feel like there was that awareness with camera and. Rob (18:05) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (18:10) And now it's like a shift of you can tell potentially that it feels like there's a veil or that people are holding back. Is that what you feel like is the difference between the mess that we miss in early seasons? Rob (18:23) Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. That I actually see going away a little bit for some people, maybe not for others, because some people don't have to worry about quote unquote being canceled. Like Molly's fine, right? Like that's not gonna be a problem, but she, at any point in time, someone could find something that they don't like about Molly and post about it, but is that going to threaten a brand deal? Probably not. Also, the era of quote being capital C canceled is unfortunately different now than it was in 2015, right? And like, I think a lot. Madelyn (19:05) Yes, yes. Rob (19:11) It's not tricky, it's just there's so many moving pieces here because I have a big project that unfortunately I'll have to come back on the podcast to announce, but I can talk to you about a lot of research that I've been doing and it. Madelyn (19:21) Hmm Rob (19:26) You can draw a line in the sand the moment people's managers started showing up in their Instagram bios. And that is when there is a shift in any reality show, especially Vanderpump Rules. When season five hits and Brittany Cartwright has emailed my manager for press releases in her or whatever in her Instagram bio, we're done. You're done. Madelyn (19:34) Mmm. Rob (19:53) You're never going to get. Yeah, yeah. Madelyn (19:53) when you get a team, it's over. Rob (19:56) You're never going to get an authentic Britney. I don't think you ever did get an authentic Britney Cartwright, but you'll you'll never see the light of day of anything being true to form there. And, you know, Stassi and Kristen. Went on a crazy tirade about faith when her and Jack's hooked up that got them fired. We all anyone listening to this broadcast probably already knows about all of that. But before that was. that actually got them fired. It was two years prior that they were like talking about it on podcasts and bragging about how they were calling the cops and doing all this stuff. No one cared. And then when they did start caring, they're like, look, I'm going to dig it up. And that was also the turning point for people to say like, God, well, I still need to make my ritual vitamin money. So I better just put on the character of the villain. rather than like actually doing villain things, if that makes sense. Because, I mean, everyone's gonna like a good person, but if you know you're gonna get screen time from being a villain, it almost becomes Disney cartoon villain more than like the authenticity of Kristen and Stassi season two of Vanderpump Rules. Madelyn (21:13) Right. it's a great point because like separating yourself from this person because we've I don't know when it happened, but we broke the fourth wall with reality TV and you hear accounts of Paris Hilton being like, that's not the real me. Are you joking? ⁓ Rob (21:26) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (21:27) I knew it would give me screen time, this is what I did. And as audiences were hip to it, and so, yeah, you're right. Now there's like, oh, let me create some separation. People know that this is just a character, this is my job. And it's so interesting. You talk about like, capital C canceled. I wanna get into like, how online discourse is now like actively shaping shows. Like it's, I feel like it is influencing narratives. Rob (21:29) Yeah. Madelyn (21:52) they're breaking the fourth wall and talking about what people are saying about them online on the shows. How have you seen fan culture, online fandom and like online discourse change how reality shows are made and consumed? Rob (21:57) Mm-hmm. It's tough because it also kind of goes into what... I was saying before, right, like this idea of takes and this idea of the right take. And I think that... You know, like Mormon wives does it in a way that I haven't seen it done before, where they are filming a season that shows them doing the previous season's reunion. Yeah. And that sometimes involves a podcast that sometimes involves going on Dancing with the Stars or The Bachelorette or whatever it may be. But like this whole idea of like. Madelyn (22:27) Great example. Great example. promotion for the previous season. Yep. Rob (22:49) like the, what is it, aurora boris, like the snake eating its own tail. Like that is, that is good in tiny doses, right? Like we know from classic Vanderpump Rules episodes that they would go on podcasts, but then not talk about the podcasts on the show. Now we're talking about podcasts. Madelyn (22:53) Yep. Rob (23:10) on the show, especially like Salt Lake City Housewives, right? And it's bad because most of the time we have a situation like that. It is with a and I was actually I was I'm glad you brought this up because I was talking about it with Venus, who's on the new season of Vanderpump Rules when I was at Sir the other day for a watch party. And we were joking around and we were talking about like next season because they're really hopeful they're getting a new season. And I said, well, like, look, here's your storyline, because he was giving me shit because we had like was snarky about him for a moment. But he's like, but you guys are funny, so I'll let it slide. Right. And I was like, OK, I was like, well, here you go. Here's your storyline next season. Get it. Get a two episode arc where you come on the podcast and confront me about my snark. And he was like. Madelyn (23:50) You Brilliant. Rob (24:00) He's like, that's not a bad idea. he's like, but then it's like giving credence. And I was like, no, you're absolutely right. The only reason I would suggest it for me is because I wouldn't roll over. I would play into it and hype it up for you. Whereas when you see on Housewives, anytime a podcaster is involved, they immediately are so excited to be a part of the show that they will do whatever. Madelyn (24:14) Mm-hmm. Rob (24:28) production once whatever the housewife wants whatever the person wants to like showcase their podcast and showcase themselves in this light like yeah that may not be my actual take but if it suits the scene like you just know this stuff is going on and I think that's such a problem because then it invalidates other creators like you and I who want to talk about these shows Madelyn (24:44) Mm-hmm. Rob (24:52) And there's always gonna be that little bit of like, well, I heard Rob talk to Venus, so he's obviously in the pocket of big Venus. so I think that's, yeah, exactly. So I think that's ultimately a problem because we haven't seen it done well. Madelyn (25:00) Venus propaganda. Sure. Yeah, and the snake eating its own tail is such a good analogy because, Mormon Wives is the perfect example because it... It got to, so I always compare it to like the way the Kardashians do their show is they do it and they do not speak about it. Like they're not talking about storylines on podcasts, they're not overdoing it. Whereas with Vanderpump, we got to a point where every individual one of those guys had a podcast and they would not only talk about, like we knew they had filmed months before, then they would talk about it. And by the time we saw it, we were like, we already know about this. Like it was like they couldn't actually keep stuff a secret. Rob (25:21) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (25:43) ⁓ and now, yes. Rob (25:44) Can I say something real quick to that point? Just, I hate to interrupt you, but my co-host Kate and I went off on a tirade the other day. It'll be a few episodes back by the time this comes out. But we were talking about Amanda Petula and Kyle Cook's announcement that they are separating. And because they are on the show, the separation announcement happens like. a week and a half before the premiere of the new season, right? But there was a time when Kristen and Tom were doing press for season two or season three of Vanderpump Rules and they had already broken up. They broke up on the show. They were not seeing each other but doing press as a couple because that was gonna be unveiled on the show. And now we are in this perpetual state where I feel like they think the, and maybe some of the audience is this way. but like a five-year-old who has the one show they like to watch or the one movie that they like to watch on repeat. And so like the parents are sick of watching Frozen because they've just seen it 30 times over the past five days. And that's how they're treating us as viewers. Like I don't need the surprise. I need to know what's gonna happen and I wanna see it play out. That doesn't work. That is so boring. Madelyn (27:07) Mm, no. It's so, I agree. I agree. I think the only, like, the only exception is Scandival because it was so unpri- like, we can get into that later. Rob (27:18) But even to that point, even to that point, all of the press and promo and everything, because it was unnatural, the news dropped four episodes in, so we're learning as much in real time as everyone else. So there wasn't like this strategic plan, everyone's like scrambling. So you're right, that worked, but it wasn't planned, and that's why it worked even better. Madelyn (27:30) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. It's too late. Like I genuinely think like even with Mormon wives, it's like, we're now gonna see Whitney during Dancing with the Stars, are we not? We're over it. We've already like, like, she is now getting ready for Broadway. So what more can there be to unearth about that period of time? I don't know. So, but you're right. It's just a very interesting time and like everyone's on their own TikToks promoting their own thing, protecting a storyline. And then they're getting into reunions and the reunions fall so flat because they can't talk about it because it's on the next season. Rob (27:52) Yeah. Yeah. so flat. Madelyn (28:13) And so like the season with Mormon wives with Stassi was like, what was that? Because you can tell that they're so mum about the next season because they're in the middle of filming it Rob (28:13) And, ugh. like the three part Bravo reunions need to be ended. Like, do not do this. My theory has been for the past few years is a Bravo reunion can be no more than two episodes if a strong portion of those two episodes have stuff happening outside of the reunion couches. when Vanderpump Rules was showing them at lunch and on smoke breaks out by the trailers and stuff, that's what I need to see at a reunion if it's gonna be more than one part. But I was telling my girlfriend the other day, I tried to watch the Salt Lake City reunion and I was like, three parts, and I got through all of number one and then I saw the preview for number two and I was like, well, I don't wanna watch that, and then I forgot about it. Madelyn (28:54) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Rob (29:13) and I am gonna live my life perfectly fine until the new season comes up. Madelyn (29:20) again, I love catering to fan culture. I love a reunion, but we're stretching them out. I feel like there's just a lack of really digging in because of whatever NDA is here, whatever, like it's just like, and so it just ends up being frustrating for the viewer, Okay, so we have talked about a lot that's like frustrating when it comes to these, but I do want to talk about what these get right. Rob (29:28) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sure. Madelyn (29:40) right now in reality, shows that are coming out now, what are producers getting right, especially when it comes to catering to that fan culture as well? Like, what do you think that they're doing really well? Rob (29:55) Well, I'll start with New Vanderpump because that is such a divisive season for a lot of people like we've talked about before. But they did something incredibly right, I think, that was masqueraded as a, what? When we first heard the announcement. And that's that they hired Chris and Jason who have been on other Netflix dating shows and are like OnlyFans models, right? So the initial take is, these guys have done shows before. Why would they're just cast? And it's like, well, OK, hate to break it to you, but yeah. Now, there are a handful of people who have worked at Sir for a few years. And quite frankly, if there's more than just those four people working at Sir and if any of those four people would have been good for the show, they wouldn't have to hire outside. Madelyn (30:33) That's, they all, they all are cast. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rob (30:54) Right? But within the people who actually worked at Sir, you've got Venus, who's gay and looking for love in West Hollywood but hates the West Hollywood dating scene. Okay, single guy. You've got Kim and Marcus, who are dating but on again, off again fighting. You've got Demi, who's their manager, so that's kind of like a Peter situation. And you've got Natalie, who is recently broken up and kind of on again, off again with this other guy. Madelyn (31:15) Mm. Rob (31:21) And that's like a real painting with a wide brush. But essentially they've all kind of got something going on. Well, we have a few other single people that come on the show. Audrey, who was cast, Angelica, who was cast, and some other things happen. Well, rather than just hire two other single guys, why not hire two other single guys who have been comfortable dating on reality TV? Madelyn (31:48) interesting. Rob (31:48) That way, there's no like weird awkwardness, like look, people love it when you kiss on screen, so we know how that pans in dated and related or whatever they were on. And so we're not afraid to be vulnerable or to say these sort of dating thoughts were not closed off as some men may be in that department. And look. Madelyn (32:01) Mm-hmm. Rob (32:12) We might hit it off with some of the single ladies on the show. We might not, but we're not afraid going in with the state of like, look, we've dated before, we'll date again, we're hot, these other people are hot, they're all ready to get in the mix. And I think that is something that goes, that was done right, especially when you find out midway through the season that those guys had an OnlyFans as well, because then it adds the layer of one of the ladies being I would say a little bit more shamy about one of the guys being on OnlyFans and another one not really caring because she's like, look, ever since I've had a phone, I've known OnlyFans existed. It's not really rocking my world. Madelyn (32:52) Right. That's so interesting because it's like... It's like how they cast a social, it's literally like we are going to cast for the social experiment that is Sir. It's like casting us a social experiment competition on Netflix and that's how they treated this season. That's really interesting. Rob (33:11) Yeah. And I think it's fine that, you know, people, go back and, you know, Jax didn't work at Sir until the rumors that a TV show was gonna happen. And then Stassi's like, hire my boyfriend who I fight with all of the time. So I think that, I think that it's kind of, it's kind of the same except they're putting a little bit more thought to it. Also, I think it's a new show runner. And so we at least get people trying to be like, look, this is gonna be a new show. Madelyn (33:21) Right. Right. Exactly. Yep. Brilliant. Rob (33:40) And I think in terms of like doing things right as well, you know. It's tough because I think a lot of what Mormon Wives did besides the parts that we've said it dropped off on was doing it right in the fact that there was no curtain over these ladies. Their job is being influencers. And the reality show is them being influencers on a show. So even if it's weird, not being able to see the stuff we want to see at all points and times, we are actually seeing what I feel like is more authenticity, even though what does that word even mean these days, but like a more authentic view of what it's like to be on reality TV than we do on any Bravo show. Madelyn (34:21) Mm. I agree, yes. I was, Mormon Wives, I wasn't going to watch it initially because I was like, I've seen this play out on TikTok. There can't be anything more there. And there actually was. And while it's like, it's become a monster in and of itself now, we're about to get season four, you know, but like it really, Rob (34:33) Same. It did. Madelyn (34:44) the level of vulnerability and like transparency in that show when it came to like, this is what it's like to be on reality TV and like filming and my kids and my TikTok and my this I thought was like really groundbreaking and really interesting. we're talking about casting from other shows for things like, for, for Occu follows like, sir, what do you feel like the next iteration of reality TV looks like? Reality TV is fairly young in the grand scheme of things. What do you feel like the next wave looks like? Rob (35:12) Well, I do think we're going to see more of a wave back to the extremes. And we've already seen this kind of start happening. But like when reality TV really popped off in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was fear factor. was, you know, yep, a survivor, which was an astronomical concept at the time. Right. And I think of that Madelyn (35:30) which just got rebooted. Mm-hmm. Rob (35:39) Monica Lewinsky show that you can't find anywhere these days called Mr. Personality, where they had to just date guys in masks because like, well, what can you really fall in love with a personality? What if he doesn't have a nose? know, it was the the nip tuck kind of one like we're the swan, right? I mean, disgusting practices now, but like these extreme ideas, high concept. Madelyn (35:48) Mm. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rob (36:07) but easy to produce. And I kind of think we're gonna see that wave go again. And I think while that's happening, concurrently, we're gonna see more of a return to form of the Vanderpump style where we actually have to have a home. We have to have a grounding purpose for why this show exists. And if we get good people, we'll have a hit show. Like I think, you know, Selling Sunset people love. I don't think it's the best show out there, but it has that same sort of idea. These people all work here and this is how they're connected. Madelyn (36:34) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, I agree. So, and this is where charm gets loose, right? Like, because these people need to see each other, they need to be in the same space. So I guess we'll create another themed party or another baby shower or another reason to get together. can tell that's happening, right? Like another memorial party, okay. But with hospitality, with sir, with, you just mentioned another show. Rob (36:51) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Madelyn (37:11) There's that central meeting place or selling sunset. It's the office and like it like it's still that unifier We talked about that earlier is still very strong. And so I agree I think we're gonna see a lot more ock you follow of I think obviously Charleston's been unlocked as a destination. I think we're gonna see a lot more sort of southern Occu follows like that southern real estate and I agree. I think the extreme is coming back. I mean I Rob (37:13) ⁓ Yep, yep. Madelyn (37:37) I think we're getting that early 2000s nostalgia, which was extreme in and of itself, but parental control next, like fear factor has already been rebooted and I watched it and was actually pretty shocked at the challenges. They literally sucked people into a vacuum sealed bag and they had an air tube. was like, whoa. And I agree. think we went. Rob (37:45) Mm-hmm. Madelyn (37:59) I think we're going to be back to the extremes. think it's what audiences want. I think it's the only way to capture attention now in an economy where attention is your only form of currency. I think it's going to get wilder. Rob (38:13) Yeah, but I do wanna just reiterate that I do think, like most things, you will get the extremes and you will get the thing that's in opposition to the extreme. And I think they're both gonna be extremely successful, but for the different audience types. I am never tuning into a MrBeast YouTube video. Nothing like that ever even appeals to me and the fact that he's even gonna be on Survivor, which I am a big fan of. Madelyn (38:33) Hmm. Rob (38:42) this season, like as like a guest, like Mr. Beast challenge or something. I I want to vomit. But he has those. I did not watch Beast Games and so sorry to my one friend that was on Beast Games. You'll never know. But it is. that idea of Beast Games is different than like a Mr. Beast. We put this guy and this girl in a thing and they can't sleep for 60 hours. Right. Like that. I don't I don't care. But I do think that's Madelyn (38:44) Mm-hmm. So you didn't watch Beast Games. Sorry to this friend. Right. Rob (39:09) a lot of people do care. And that will be like the median of which direction a show is made. Are we gonna go lean more beast or lean more, I don't know, selling sunset or something, you know? Like that's the way it's gonna be. Madelyn (39:21) Yeah. Agreed, agreed. I have some rapid fire questions for you just like as a fellow fan as a fellow reality fan. And again, I think your takes on where reality is going. And again, I think about this from a development perspective of like, you know, I'm in an active conversation right now with people who are very deep in the Bravo universe who are looking for ensembles. It is their top mandate. They're like, we are looking for stakes, a scandal. We need an entry point. We need a unifier. Like, I know that this is... Rob (39:56) Well, I'm afraid to say my next idea on Mike then, I need to tell you after the record so they don't scoop me. Madelyn (40:02) Yeah, but this is really what they're looking for. And as someone who's trying to actively mine for that, it's so interesting because you are beholden to the shows that have come before it and the characters and the bar that they have set. And so just being able to analyze the last 10, 15 years of docu and ocky follows like this is just so interesting because it really is shaping and setting the bar for, I don't know, what is to come in the future, the worlds we haven't seen yet, the type of characters we haven't seen yet. I don't know, the tropes we haven't seen yet, if that's possible. ⁓ But I wanna know your favorite, and maybe not, it doesn't have to be favorite because you're like affectionate towards it, but like your favorite Vanderpump character arc, right? We talked about how many seasons there were on the show, like who is that and what is that for you? Rob (40:40) Mm-hmm. Wow. I think it's Sheena because it's so bad. I mean, I am one of the few that really like Sheena because I think she knows how to do her job and will look bad doing it if it's still great television. And the fact that she's had so many, like her story arc is essentially finding love, right? Like at the end of the day, that's, and she tried and failed many times. Madelyn (41:23) Yeah, she tried and failed many times. Rob (41:27) her character wheel is like something that you could never even write. You know what I mean? You would think that the end of her story is, that's what you would write is like the worst thing that happened to her with like maybe Rob or someone, not me. And then you would go, no, that's the midpoint. Like her end is still to come. And I think that Sheena has such, like we wouldn't have Vanderpump rules the way that we have it now. Madelyn (41:43) Mm-hmm. I was gonna say not to be confused with you. Rob (41:54) without Sheena and without Edri Cibrian and all of that. Yeah, all those other people exist, but it's all connected to this one event. You we see her in various relationships, various friendships, and it is, it's just so fun to watch. Madelyn (42:10) Sheena is a very interesting character arc and just to, again, just her character, I wanna be like they struck gold and then I'm thinking good is gold and then I could just go and I'll like, but it's so true of like the person who wants to be a pop star but also wants to find love and is in all these relationships that don't work. know, gosh, it's just too good. Okay. Amazing Race, or I know you said you love Survivor so we can put Survivor here, but who is a reality star that you would wanna partner with? Rob (42:15) huh. Yes, it is! Madelyn (42:36) on Amazing Race. Rob (42:36) Mm. Well, I've also watched plenty of Amazing Race. So if I were to partner with someone on one of those shows, honestly, if it's Amazing Race, I'm partnering with Brad from Southern Hospitality because that man is a beast and I need someone more athletic than me to go on this show. Madelyn (42:40) Okay, great. ⁓ okay, yes. Okay, that is a really good point. I was sitting here thinking too, like going through my brain of like, who's Braun and whose brains and like, what could it do? I actually like, honestly, my choice was Molly because I think she's so smart. And I do think like, athletic, like I think she could totally do it, but like musicians, I think just their brain works so differently and they're stud, I don't know. So I think Molly would be my choice. Who's your favorite new face, new season of Vanderpump, some of the new characters on Charm or Hospitality? Rob (43:09) yeah. yeah. Mm-hmm. It's a tie on New Vanderpump in that it's between Natalie and Audrey. I think they have it and I think that we will see them, like the only reason we won't be seeing them on reality TV is because they choose not to be on reality TV. Yeah. Madelyn (43:40) Okay, okay, so kudos to the casting directors. ⁓ What are you kind of just tired of seeing on these shows? Like we have talked about it a lot, but are there any tropes or just things that you're like, we get it. Rob (43:44) Yes. I think the idea of like reframing why someone is not finding love, especially when it's a man. Yeah, and I'm really thinking Southern Charm like it's. Madelyn (44:00) I was gonna say, especially when it's on Charm. Rob (44:07) It's very clear why people who are perpetually single, especially men on these shows, are perpetually single. And you don't need to put another coat of paint on it. Like, we know why. That doesn't have to be the storyline for them. Madelyn (44:17) Mm. I agree with you. I agree with you. Okay, and then the last question. Where were you in the world when you found out about Scandamall? Rob (44:22) Okay. I was out near Joshua Tree in the desert. Yeah. I had gotten up from my day job. I was working from home and I was just looking at my phone while getting a glass of water and I was like, no way. TMZ is always wrong, right? They're always wrong. Madelyn (44:34) You're like, know my exact coordinates. Less and less it feels like these days. Rob (44:52) Yeah, and now I'm like, I got verified source, another source, and I like called someone I was podcasting with. I was like, I think we have to do an emergency episode. And it happened. We did it, and it was shocking. Madelyn (45:05) It was a cultural reset. and what I also... Rob (45:07) Yeah. Madelyn (45:09) I remember watching the season back and there were so many things like the lightning necklace and the looks they gave each other that we just, know, the birthday gifts he gave her and we just wrote, we just shrugged it off. Like, that's just sandal. And it's just so crazy to watch it back under that new context. ⁓ Rob (45:27) and they swear that they didn't touch any episodes once the news broke, and I think that's total bullshit. Madelyn (45:33) If I was a producer, I'd be like, we're getting back in the edit. Like, come on. You gotta get back in there, but I agree. Rob (45:37) Yeah, yeah. I get screeners to some of these shows. And I'll tell you this, when the Valley, last season of the Valley, season two, when Jax was terrorizing Brittany and everything, like, I did not get screeners to that season. And that is, think, specifically because they were going up to the last minute making those episodes. Madelyn (45:43) Mm. Mmm, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Jax. This is the first time his name has been mentioned in this entire episode because no, no, because we can't give the man, he doesn't deserve the airtime. Rob (46:04) I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. No, not at all. Nope. Madelyn (46:14) my God, well Rob, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for just sharing your expert insights and opinion. And like I said, please anytime you need a guest co-host, let me know. I'm in there. I'll talk reality with you all day. Rob (46:25) Yeah. I yeah, thank you. And I just ask that if anyone listening wants to try out a new podcast, try out Vanderpump Rob's. Madelyn (46:34) Go take a listen. Thanks so much, Rob. Bye. Rob (46:37) No problem. Madelyn (46:44) Thank you so much for listening I'm actually on the next episode of Rob's podcast discussing season four, episode two of Southern Hospitality. I think that drops on Monday, so be sure to tune in if you want to hear us talk all about that latest season and what is up with that crew out of Charleston. Thank you so much for listening again. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Unscripted Files Pod. Like, subscribe, rate, review, all the things, and we'll see you Monday for our Unscripted Industry News with Emily Wilson. Thanks.