Anthony Gonzales (00:00) I'm trying to change the game. I'm trying to change the way every baking show is made from here on out. You have to give me an edit and then I will generate a shot in the computer that fits the narration. And so it kind of happened, but then at the same time, the technology is so cool that I'm able to also do things that are impossible. Madelyn Cunningham (00:01) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Great. Madelyn Cunningham (00:26) Hey everybody, welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I'm a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today's episode is with a director of reality TV. How does that work? We know how it works in narrative. We have a pretty good idea. So how does it work when things aren't so choreographed, aren't so scripted? This particular director cut his teeth on Big Brother with nearly 300. episodes and most recently has done Perfect Match, which is in his third season, as well as Claim to Fame on ABC, the format that we talk about a lot on the show because it's so fresh, so fun, a lot of development producers really, really love it. We get into the emerging tech that he used on a baking show called Killer Cakes and how he's trying to implement that new technology into his other work. Let me just talk about his creative process once the showrunner brings him onto a show. How does he set the tone? How does he capture it? And what are things like on set? So a really, really interesting conversation. I hope you enjoy with my guest, Anthony Gonzales. Madelyn Cunningham (01:35) Anthony or Tony, Anthony Gonzales (01:36) My friends call me Tony, but if you're writing me a check, it's Anthony. Madelyn Cunningham (01:38) Okay. I'm going to call you Tony. Is that cool? Okay, Tony, welcome to the unscripted files. were just, you were just asking me before how I found you. And I am a, always trolling on IMDB, seeing who's making good stuff and claim to fame actually brought me to you because it's a show that I really love. Anthony Gonzales (01:44) Thank you. Yes. Madelyn Cunningham (01:59) Every development producer I know is talking about Claim to Fame, what a great show it is. And you were listed as a director on the series. I go to your page, I find that you've done Perfect Match, Celebrity Prank Wars, Tiny Food Fight, I'm literally reading directly from it, Prank Encounters, Man vs. Bear, Dance Moms, My Crazy Birth Story, I mean, and then Big Brother, How Can We Forget Big Brother? I mean, you have just a crazy amount of credits. you know, I think most of the general population understands what a narrative director does, but I would love to really dive in with how what you do is unique when it comes to the unscripted industry. Anthony Gonzales (02:35) Sure. So I start with tone. And so I try to figure out what the tone of the TV show is. And so if it's a competition reality show, but a mystery, I try to think how can I incorporate elements of mystery visuals into claim to fame? How can I make it feel... voyeuristic and real, but still like what's the tone of the show? I'm constantly asking what's the tone for Perfect Match. I'm like, what's the tone of this show? And it's oftentimes like a dating show. The tone is the same. It's, you know, fun. It's sexy. and then, a little competitive. So it's just trying to figure out. I like to approach it from how can I use the visual tools that I have available to me to make the show visually interesting and stick with the tone? kind of like, I don't know, like you used to only have like two options. Are you going to shoot this movie in color or in black and white? And it was like, depending on what the tone is, that's what you would pick. Now we have like so many different tools. I can pick different lenses and stuff like that. I often got criticized. I like bringing this up because I got criticized a lot for my camera choice for Dance Moms. For Dance Moms, we use like a small camera. I get so excited about this. Madelyn Cunningham (03:43) He's going to get the camera, everybody. Anthony Gonzales (03:45) So like, this is kind of like... Madelyn Cunningham (03:48) Okay. Anthony Gonzales (03:48) So this is a soup. Okay, yes, of course. So, high definition was invented. You could definitely shoot things in high def for dance moms. When I finally figured out what the tone of dance moms was, it was basically going to kids' dance recitals. And so in my mind, I was like, I don't wanna go into a dance recital with like a huge. Madelyn Cunningham (03:48) and tell me why. Ha ha ha! Anthony Gonzales (04:12) E &G camera. I don't want to take a red, I don't want take prime lenses, I don't want to take all these things. No, what I want is I want my cameramen to kind of look like they could potentially be... super right. Madelyn Cunningham (04:24) Right, just like small footprint, not invasive. The camera he's showing is about the size of my forearm, you guys. It's like super low footprint, low profile. Anthony Gonzales (04:30) yes. It's like what you're in the 90s. It's like what a 90s dad would bring to a kids dance competition. So it's lightweight. It's super, it's high to death. But yeah, it does it. And the quality of it isn't, I wouldn't say it's, it's not like a red or an Alexa quality, but it's still high def and it's lightweight and it's easy and there's a lot of auto functions. Madelyn Cunningham (04:38) Totally. Anthony Gonzales (04:57) so that you could chase these kids around. And when the show got popular, they're like, should we change the camera? And I'm like, no, I don't think you should because part of the, I think, secret sauce or je ne sais quoi about the show, what makes the show popular is that we're able to follow these kids and these moms wherever they go without kind of really being stopped. So I'm kind of proud about... choosing so like I don't always just choose like the newest latest greatest thing I try to figure out what's best for the show and so and then how can I use that Madelyn Cunningham (05:29) Right, no, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I think the default would be, okay, what's like the sexiest, like, ARI or RED that we can use? And for you, you're thinking Functionally, what do we have to do on set? What do we have to achieve? And, you know, what is gonna be the best way to do that? So, claim to fame, you can do your big sweeping, you know, shots and your wides and your swings, but here it was like, no. I want to remain low profile. And even as the show got popular, it was important to kind of maintain that. And so then how are you working together with the showrunner to really bring the visual tone of the show to life? Anthony Gonzales (06:06) Oftentimes I'll have an idea about the show and I'll bring that idea to the meeting. A lot of people don't do this. a lot of people are. It's counterintuitive, but a lot of people will come to the meeting and be like, hey, you just read all my credits, right? You like those shows. Do you want to hire me or do you not? And it sounds like that's how a lot of people approach it. And what I do in the meeting is I'll just be like, usually my agent will send me a little bit of information about the show. I'll look at the show. I'll be like, what's cool about the show? What is the one thing I can do with this show that could make it unique? And then in the meeting, I'll be like, oh, I think we can do this. Case in point, in the meeting for there's a show that may never see air. I don't know. It's called Sneaky Links. I'm really proud of it. We're in the color correction process of it. We're in the color correction process of it now. And so like, I think we're all the way up to episode eight, but we still don't have an air date. So that's a little scary. But in the meeting. Madelyn Cunningham (06:52) fingers crossed. Hmm. Anthony Gonzales (07:06) It's a show about people who date people that it's called Sneaky Links. So they date people that they're kind of like not proud of or they're not like serious. It's like a booty call or I'm trying to think on the DL. Yes, that's the term that we use. So it's something that you date on the DL. And so was like, how do you visually represent the DL? So at night, I in the meeting, I was basically pitched. I was like, it would be fun as if we had like a pink light that kind of turned on. Madelyn Cunningham (07:15) Mm-hmm. Yeah, on the DL. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Anthony Gonzales (07:32) and washed the entire set with so that they knew it was time for Sneaky Link Hours. So that you knew it was time to go and see other people. And so the showrunner like attached to that idea and she really liked that idea to the point where she would start, I forget where, I got hired and then like I was in a meeting somewhere and she was starting to explain my idea. And I was like, and so in a good way, in a way like she latched onto the idea, she liked the idea and then just kept going with the idea. And then that's how it entered into the show. So I just try to present as many good ideas as possible or as many ideas as I like. And then some of them will go and some of them won't. if you like, some people like some of my ideas and some people don't. And depending on how much, I guess, runway you'll give me, I'll go as far as I can, as you'll let me. but I'm also receptive to being reined in. Madelyn Cunningham (08:25) there a show where you really, and I imagine getting to start a season one versus a season five, it varies in how much your creative DNA could really be part of the process, but is there a show specifically or a few where you were like, I really got to put the Tony imprint on this and have a lot of equity in the creative? Anthony Gonzales (08:43) I would say a lot of the shows. So my show Killer Cakes for Amazon, it was a two episode like pilot thing like that. I feel like that has Tony written all over it. They're like, we want it to be a horror cooking show. We don't want it to be brightly lit and we don't want it to look like every other cooking show. And so I kind of go out and I use this. look, you know, I look at the movies that I like and I found a frame that I really liked. It's like, I don't know what it is, but it had like teal light spilling in from the windows and some other stuff. And yeah, I was able to take that image and be like, this is this one image. This is the whole TV show. And like, oftentimes, this is it. This is the whole show. And so multiple things about that show that I really enjoyed. Being in reality, like we don't get to use all the coolest tools all the time or there's like Madelyn Cunningham (09:20) This is it. Anthony Gonzales (09:31) The new stuff is relatively expensive and the whole fun thing about reality is that it's quick and relatively inexpensive. And I try to use that to my advantage. killer cakes. They want it to be different. I'm like, all right, I'm going to give you all the different ideas and you just tell me when to stop. I'm like, okay. And I was even talking to the art department, the art department. Basically she, my friend Mike, and she put the windows on the bottom of the set. I was like, before you build the set, I want to flip it because I want the light to come in from the top, not from the bottom. She's like, well, it's supposed to be on the second floor. And I'm like, well, now we're on the basement. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's like, just could we flip it and she's like and so but the set wasn't built so we flipped the set and i was able to get the light to spill in from the top and have like a really ugly green teal cyan color pushing in as their backlight and then yeah i was able to give it like a real horror vibe and then for interviews they're like we only have we have two interview rooms and they're like Madelyn Cunningham (10:06) Right. Anthony Gonzales (10:29) And I'm like, okay, but we have like four contestants. What we could do is, and there was like a window and the window was like covered with cellophane or something like that thick plastic. She was like, the art director was like, well, I don't have much money. I was thinking I'll just do this plastic and you can hit it with different colored lights for different teams. I was like, yeah, that's a great idea. That's something that we've done before. And I was like, But what would be cooler is since you already have a window there, let me take two TVs, put them on their sides, and then put like creepy images in there. Madelyn Cunningham (11:01) Like, creepy B-roll. Nice. Yeah. Anthony Gonzales (11:02) creepy B roll on a loop. And so we had like. rain I'm always like I'm always there's things you can't do in an interview that you just don't do and I was like well if we do the things that you're not supposed to do it might make it look more expensive for instance you don't shoot out windows mostly in reality tv like I got a lot of trouble for undercover boss because I think I was like the first person to start shooting the boss's interview out windows I'm like these bosses have like enormous we're on the top floor of this building in San Francisco or Seattle, I'm like, you can see all of Seattle. I'm like, we should just open the window. Why do you guys walk in and the first thing you do is close the windows and like, we want to control the light. I'm like, well, there's other ways we can control the light. The interview is only really like the boss is only going to give us like an hour or two. The light's not going to change much in an hour or two. And so they, you know, they're like iffy and they're like, I guess so. I'm like, we'll just ND the windows. And they're like, you're going to see the bubbles on TV and blah, blah, blah, blah. Madelyn Cunningham (11:41) Mm-hmm. Right. Anthony Gonzales (12:00) it's not like we have you know it's like an AC who's doing the the window tinting not a not professional gaffer Madelyn Cunningham (12:04) Exactly, Right, right. Anthony Gonzales (12:06) so every contestant has a different interview look per se so the windows so rain you can't usually a you can't shoot out windows B you can't shoot in the rain rain is tough because it makes a noise and it's but since it's rain b-roll it makes zero noise And then I would also do I had one that was like an alley and like a car passing by slowly And so it was all like creepy imagery one was like a tree that kind of like moved a little bit and so you never knew you You didn't really know where you were as far as like where this place was. You're just like, this is a creepy basement and it's constantly nighttime outside and So I thought that was cool. And then the last thing I did for this show And so that's why, so it's like, got three unique things into the show that I felt were cool. The third thing being, I was able to use Nerf technology for the first time, I think in any reality TV show. So when you do a cooking show, you only get like five to 10 minutes with the cakes. But the whole show is the cakes. so traditionally what we do, on a baking on a cooking show, usually what they do is they'll make two plates, one for tasting, one for shooting. So what we did was but it's these cakes are so large, you only get one chance to shoot the cakes before they eat it because it's like sculptures almost. And so usually what you do is you do a pan, you do a tilt. Madelyn Cunningham (13:21) Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (13:25) then you change the lens to like a wider or tight and you do it again. And then that's all you get. sometimes I get aggravated when I watch the show back at home because the judge will focus on a certain part of the cake or something that I didn't necessarily shoot or they'll have to reuse a shot twice. And I'm like, and so I wanted to create shots in post. And so I used this technology called Nerf technology, is basically a 3D scan of the cake. then the so I 3D scan the cake with like 300 stills. So I had my DP just he took a he took my still camera and he took 300 photos of the cake walking around it from eye level above it and below it. And then inside the computer using an app called Nerf Studio, which is basically which is Luma Labs. it's not important anyways using the computer i just like saying photoshop now whenever someone's like what do you use i'm just like it's photoshop just photoshop nothing crazy but anyways the computer stitches it together and makes it a 3d environment so wanting to be this and this all comes from me wanting to direct like the mandalorian like i'll never get it i won't get an opportunity to direct the mandalorian but Madelyn Cunningham (14:19) Just Photoshop, nothing crazy. Anthony Gonzales (14:36) I try to take things from high-end narratives that I can implement into my show. post is like, okay, Tony, send us your nerf shots. And I'm like, well, you got to send me a cut of the show. I need to know what you guys, what's driving the story? What parts of the cake do you want to see? And they're like, I don't know, just give us some B-roll. We'll use whatever you give us. I'm like, yeah, no, no, no, no. Madelyn Cunningham (14:52) Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (14:59) I'm trying to change the game. I'm trying to change the way every baking show is made from here on out. You have to give me an edit and then I will generate a shot in the computer that fits the narration. And so it kind of happened, but then at the same time, the technology is so cool that I'm able to also do things that are impossible. Madelyn Cunningham (15:01) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Great. Anthony Gonzales (15:20) So when you watch the show, there's like a huge fan of Alfred Hitchcock, huge fan of- huge fan of Martin Scarsese, so anytime I can do like that vertigo shot, which the first time I saw it was in Goodfellas where you dolly in and zoom out at the same time or vice versa. I'm able to do that now in the computer with a 3D model of the cake, but as a drone shot. So most drones don't have zooms. it's like a shot that's like actually technically impossible at Madelyn Cunningham (15:34) Mm-hmm. Okay. Right? Anthony Gonzales (15:50) this moment in time or at least at the moment in time in which I shot it. But it creates so much style and flair that hopefully it's like eye catching. Madelyn Cunningham (15:57) you're basically like, I don't want the story to succumb to the coverage or lack thereof. So if the judges are like, just, the way that you designed this little piece here, I just don't see it. It's not selling it for me. Maybe you didn't capture that. So just has to cut to like the whole cake. Right. Exactly. And not really get in on what they're talking about to drive it home. And so you're coming up with a solution for that. Anthony Gonzales (16:13) A wider shot. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (16:22) That's really fascinating and so necessary, I think, because you're right, post is typically at the mercy of, what coverage did you get or not get and how can we work around that? What other projects have you used this type of tech on, anything? Anthony Gonzales (16:36) So now it's like, if they focus on, like this is so bad for a podcast as well, but like if they focus. Madelyn Cunningham (16:42) He's showing me the cake shot, guys. Anthony Gonzales (16:45) But if they focus on this eye or if they talk about how this eye is different than this eye, I can create that shot. I can create any shot I want. Madelyn Cunningham (16:48) Right, right. That's really cool. That's fascinating. yeah. Anthony Gonzales (16:57) I tried to use it on claim to fame. I tried to use it on claim to fame. really wanted to use it on the clue wall. Madelyn Cunningham (17:04) was just gonna say is it for the clue wall, yep. Anthony Gonzales (17:06) And so, because. they talk about the clue wall. they'll say three clues together or they'll say two clues together but when you shoot the clue wall you have to shoot it for coverage you shoot one clue at a time as stylized and as nice as you can and then you cut through those i was like well no what i can do is you give me the edit and then i can do whatever I can make a shot that is tailored yeah that pulls those two and so it's completely tailored and it's photorealistic I was working with Google at the time and because of the short turnaround though they're like this seems the lawyer seems scared of this or iffy Madelyn Cunningham (17:30) that pulls those three clues. Yeah. Anthony Gonzales (17:44) we're having a hard time getting in touch with someone at Google who is able to tell us because I'm talking to like an engineer at Google and the engineer at Google is like, yeah, sure, go ahead, use it. I'm happy to. This is where the whole reason we're doing this. Hulu or not Hulu, ABC is like, right, right, right. I just need to talk to your legal team. And they're like, the legal team of Google? They're like, who, you know what I mean? It was tough. I was using cutting that tech. Madelyn Cunningham (17:49) Mm-hmm. Nervous. Right. Anthony Gonzales (18:11) I was using cutting edge technology and it wasn't really, it was still in like development phases. They didn't have a pipeline for how they were actually intending to use it. I think they're using it for like, Madelyn Cunningham (18:17) Right. Anthony Gonzales (18:22) It feels like it's being used so that you can kind of do like virtual tours of restaurants. Like if you're like, like that's kind of what they were telling me. They were, they're like, we've never thought to use it in television. They're like, no, we're just, we're part of the Google maps team. Madelyn Cunningham (18:28) Okay, sure. Right. It's so funny because, I mean, even on home improvement shows, you've got like renderings and like walking through the room before it's created. So the idea to do this on culinary or to do it on other shows, sometimes I think we just create the rules and can't like think beyond that. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm sure it's interesting trying to advocate for new tech it does put story first instead of, well don't use that sound bite because we don't have that shot. Now we've got to take this out, you know? What is your, you know, are you pulling inspo shots? you on frame shed set? Are you on shot deck? You know, you, you've obviously a fan. Anthony Gonzales (19:16) I use Shot Deck a lot, but I'll make a... I start with tone and I make a style guide. Madelyn Cunningham (19:18) Yes. Anthony Gonzales (19:24) And so my style guides have gotten more and more detailed as I've been working in this longer and longer. Like my style guide basically starts the day my agent tells me I have an interview. So the second I have an interview, I create a new style guide, whatever the name of the show is or whatever I think it is. And then I just start putting ideas in there and pulling inspo. And so, yeah, and so I'm like, well. Madelyn Cunningham (19:24) Nice. Anthony Gonzales (19:45) what can I do to make this cool? That's why I have something to talk about in the interview and also have some like visuals to share because it's a visual medium. But yeah I make a style guide and I kind of have like a little format that I use that works out pretty well for me and I just kind of start with that template and then start populating the template with the answers I get from the showrunner as to what the tone is and based on what the story is. And then yeah, and then it kind of, I just start filling it out. Madelyn Cunningham (20:12) That's the most, to me, that's my favorite part. Establishing look and tone and just like pulling inspo, especially, you you're talking about, you're such a fan of like Hitchcock, Scorsese. It's like being able to pull those as inspo It's one of my favorite parts. And I, it's not even my job really as a development producer, but I always have like look, tone, feel, color palette mood boards, even though it's so far down the line, it's just my favorite thing to do. So once you've, know, you've, so, so you've presented that and you guys have agreed. Okay, here's the look and tone, here's the approach to the show. What is your prep for day one on set? Like, what does that look like for you? Anthony Gonzales (20:45) So I pull out a large monitor, I get my camera team together. Like my DP and my lighting director, we've already spoken, things are already in motion. But whatever day, the first day that all the camera team's there, I basically go through my style guide and say, this is kind of what we've agreed upon, these are the rules. And so... Madelyn Cunningham (20:45) Yeah. Anthony Gonzales (21:02) Yeah, and sometimes people will ask questions So, it's just getting everyone on board and explaining. Madelyn Cunningham (21:06) Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (21:08) what we're doing and how we're doing it and how to best represent that and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't because sometimes and like like I said I'm doing color correction I'm like you used this thing like I texted my friend my camera operator buddy I'm like dude I'm watching the show and you use I come up with these filters I'm looking to see if I have my filters. Basically, I've been creating custom filters recently. I started doing this on Prank Encounters, but I changed out the aperture. So I really want the show, so I want to know that it's my show, right? And I want to be able to point to one thing that is my fingerprint. And one of those things is my custom apertures. In Claim to Fame, I made a star. For Perfect Match, I made a heart. Madelyn Cunningham (21:41) you Anthony Gonzales (21:57) And so if you watch the wine room, if you go to the wine room season three and you see them dollying the cups, the wine bottles, the bokeh is star shaped. It's not circular. so and so in claim to fame, when people are falling in love, I use a heart filter. So sometimes on dates you'll see hearts for and yet and. Madelyn Cunningham (22:07) Awesome. Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (22:18) I shouldn't admit that there's mistakes in my TV show, but there's one date that's a blind date where you're not supposed to use the heart. And that's that's clearly documented. But I guess they accidentally use the heart filter or they they had they're not in love yet. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so they use the heart filter. And yeah. And so like there's a there's a moment in time. Yeah. And it's. Madelyn Cunningham (22:30) You're like, they're not in love yet. I love that custom little watermark of like these small, again, like I would never think of that to not only drive it home with the viewer, but to also create that kind of watermark of your work and how you're like thinking of things differently. that's so cool. What, I mean, what other things, I just, I get a feeling that you are, you're constantly thinking, you're constantly pushing, you're bringing new tech in, you're making custom apertures like, What else, is there anything else that you're excited about that's evolving technology or anything else that you're excited to use or to try to bring to networks as a tool? Anthony Gonzales (23:18) keep trying to use AI. I keep trying to read what the rules are. And I'm like, OK, what AI can I bring? At the moment, I like this thing called animate diff, or style transfer. My son skateboards. And so I'll film him skateboarding. And then we'll post him skateboarding. And then what I do is I'll take that post, or whatever that edit is, bring it into the computer. And then. Madelyn Cunningham (23:20) Ugh. Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (23:42) turn it into like an animation style. So it be like super, super poppy, super colorful, super anime-esque. And that works for him and his brand because he likes video games and he likes, so can like, I can transfer his skateboarding to pixel art or something. And it's pretty cool. It's very abstract. It's fun looking. It doesn't necessarily tell any story. It's just cool to look at. And I'm like, well... Madelyn Cunningham (24:07) Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (24:09) Yeah, that's something I like. And so I tried to get that. There's a thing on Perfect Match that we do where like someone walks in and then it's like, there's like this like crazy Austin Powers kind of effect. And it's like, it says something, something goofy. And I'm like, that's cool. If we wanted to like update that, if we didn't want to do this 1970s Austin Powers retro. Madelyn Cunningham (24:18) Yep. Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (24:38) thing that's cool if we wanted to make it modern, think the modern thing would be we do some sort of version of Animate Diff based on the show. It's called Animate Diff. I have a computer back there that is relatively powerful that you do that stuff on. technology is just a style transfer, basically style transfer, right? Like I shot the video. I then tell the computer to transfer this style and then it applies that to the video. yeah, it's people are scared of it. I'm like, there's no generative AI. I understand generative AI. I am also I don't think I try to do everything I do is try I try to be ethical. Like I'm trying to be an ethical AI user. Like I don't want to use anything that is like stolen or copy of. So like I would never use Madelyn Cunningham (25:10) and as. Anthony Gonzales (25:26) I use Mid Journey all the time for storyboards, but I would never use and I like to use Mid Journey a lot in my style guides because I'm like, well, to say we're going to do a shot that Martin Scorsese did for $200,000 when the entire budget of my TV show is right? It's not realistic. So I'm like, so I'm able to tell Mid Journey. Madelyn Cunningham (25:29) Same. Right? Right. Anthony Gonzales (25:52) the elements that I like and to create a visual of what I'm trying to achieve and then I'll show that piece of paper instead of showing someone a piece of paper with a shot from a movie which they roll their eyes at like Tony will never be able to like like how are you how are you going to use this camera here and create a shot that was Madelyn Cunningham (26:05) Yep. Right. Right. The reference doesn't necessarily translate because it's so cinematic. Yeah. Anthony Gonzales (26:16) Right. But with Mid Journey, I'm able to create a version of that. But I would never use Mid Journey on a TV show because the way I understand it, Mid Journey kind of unethically took everyone's images and photos. And that's what it's using. Madelyn Cunningham (26:31) Yeah, it's tricky. think it's, I think I was just talking about this. I think in development, it is a great tool because trying to find like the perfect reference image can take you hours and you might find the perfect reference image, but it's not the right tone or style. And so you're like, well, this is the action, but it's not the style or this is the style, but not the action. And so being able to generate that perfectly is so helpful. so when you're actually on set, are you about to show me the supercomputer? Anthony Gonzales (27:00) Yeah, it's like, no, no, no, but it's like, like, I want a claymation style, but I want it to be blue like this. And you're and then you then now you have a piece of paper with this on it and it clearly labeled this color, this style. And then you're trying to sell this idea and then people get confused. Yeah. But but in the. Madelyn Cunningham (27:08) Right. Right. Yes. Right. Yes. And it's so much better to be concise when you're selling, because you don't, know, you have little, little opportunity to capture attention. And if you're spending too much time trying to go, it's this, but this, you lose it. Right. So being able to have that exact reference is so powerful. So when you're finally on set, you've got a crew, the size can vary. dance moms versus claim to fame versus perfect match. I'm sure it's very different. But when you're on the sort of reality style show, how are you working together with your crew? Like how are you communicating about what you wanna capture both in your kind of meeting before set, during set, because you don't wanna, you can't call cut. You can't rerun a scene necessarily. You don't wanna interrupt what's happening. And so how are you sort of communicating and working with your crew when you're filming? Anthony Gonzales (28:16) background is Big Brother so Big Brother we never cut I never spoke to the talent and so so yeah I never spoke to the talent I never was able to speak to the talent because the whole point was that you never saw them we and we invented or then we started doing challenges which was unique to America because we thought it would be fun and it was so I had to and I was like I need to tell the cast where to stand so that I can shoot them. Otherwise they'll just stand in a circle. It's no good. And then we figured out, we'll put down these mats. We basically, depending on what the season, we called them, the first time we used them, I think they were star mats, but they were just these mats with a star on them. And I put those stars down and then they'd walk out and then they kind of stand on those stars. The host would have like a decorated background. and then behind and then we put the star mats down and then behind the star mats would be a little bit more set design so whatever that theme was usually it was just plants but it was still better to see you know plants or something that related to the challenge versus seeing the house so that the audience felt like they were so it felt just so it felt like we were using all our resources correctly I come up with a camera plot and I do the blocking. I have the so Big Brother and then I did prank shows. And so in a prank show, you can't you we the fun thing that we do is we try to capture real human emotion. And that's what makes our stuff great is that there's genuine human emotion shows like Big Brother. I find are more real than some other shows I've done, even though Big Brother is 100 % kind of contrived, like it's manufactured, right? But the emotions that the people are feeling are so real, like they genuinely believe everything they're saying because that's their life at that moment in time. Madelyn Cunningham (30:07) And when you say contrived, you just mean like this environment that they're put in isn't a realistic situation. Anthony Gonzales (30:15) Right, like in reality, yes, you... Yeah, like normally people get to go home and on Big Brother, Big Brother they don't go home. There's no reset, there's no cell phones, there's no... They don't get to look at the news, they have no idea what's going on in the real world, they're only focused on what they're trying to do and that... And it strips all the distractions away and then it's just like... Madelyn Cunningham (30:16) Yeah, this ecosystem. Right. Anthony Gonzales (30:43) pure emotion. And so I find the shows that kind of stick to that, just capturing the realness of it work best. So if we're going on a date I'm like okay this is where the date is. If we put the food here the cast will come and sit down here. And so without necessarily telling them where to sit, there's like no other options. And so that's the same thing with like in the prank world, we would do is you basically have one person you're trying to scare and you have like a bunch of actors. How do you get this person to sit in the chair you want him to sit in? Basically, you just have the other actors sit in every other available seat. And then there's, and then, know, like... human nature you'll just be like I guess I'll sit here right and it feels natural and you don't feel and you don't feel like you're being told where to sit and so and so I feel like a lot of that a fun rule that Madelyn Cunningham (31:29) Great. Right. Okay, so the focus on the setup, right? So you're trying to set the scene basically and allow it to unfold with very little interference. Anthony Gonzales (31:39) Yes. I'll talk to the host, but I rarely ever talk to the actual cast. I'm okay with that. The producers talk to the cast, but yeah, I never talk to the cast. And if I hear a camera person talking to the cast, I'm like, hey, that's not how we do it. We don't. Please, let's not talk to them. We're just here to observe. And so I try to, I'm a big. Madelyn Cunningham (32:02) Interesting. so you don't want to create any sort of relationship there. Anthony Gonzales (32:10) Well, so yeah, you bring up a good point, right? Like you, if it's a dating show, like the person on the date needs to feel like they do have someone they can talk to and they do have someone they can talk to. They can talk to the producer. Don't talk to the camera person. The camera person doesn't know what's going on all day. They don't, they are not, you know, as I mean, I have the best camera people in the world and they do listen to the story and they do tell me things like. and I try to get them involved. Like if I do talk to them about anything, it's like what's happening. I'm like, is she upset? And they'll be like, yeah, Tony, my God. She just saw what's his name kissing so and so. I'm like, well, did you get a relationship shot of that? you? And they're like, yes. And so like I did. Here, here it is again. Madelyn Cunningham (32:53) Right, I did. What it seems like it's all a part of you, even you were referenced, you know, I'll go back to the dance moms of like, how can you ensure that even if you have a crew with multiple cameras, your footprint, whether that's physical or emotional in the space is as minimal as it can be. Anthony Gonzales (33:11) Yeah, I'm a big fan of Star Trek and there's this thing in Star Trek called the Prime Directive and it's kind of like how I try to live my life. It's basically, we're just there to observe and, you know, no judgments. Madelyn Cunningham (33:25) Okay, so I had a question of how do you influence the narratives and the things that play out on screen? And you're basically like, if I do my job right, not at all. Not at all, okay. Anthony Gonzales (33:35) Not at all. Yeah, I shouldn't. I should not influence the story at all. My visuals should help elevate the story. Every tool that I'm using is in service of telling that story. Like, OK, this person is mad at this person. Can we get a relationship shot? Yeah, but I don't want them to feel like they're actors. I don't want to do entrances more than once. And yeah, once I once we do do that, like, OK, go ahead, walk in, go find your go find the instructor for the date. Go do this. Go do that. Once we say go, then, we don't do anything until basically our time's up. And then someone comes in and says, your time's up. Dates over. Do you mind just saying something and walking out saying, just let us know if you had a good time or not. And then they walk out and then they land into an interview and then they're in the interview. And then we're doing OTFs. Madelyn Cunningham (34:24) my gosh, let's talk Big Brother, you mentioned it. You kind of cut your teeth on Big Brother, right? Like that was, I mean, that's crazy. think you have like 200, I mean, you have an insane amount of episodes on Big Brother, which is not, yeah, 279 episodes and that's just an IMDB. I don't even know if you've updated it. And so, okay, you say right place, right time. What's the story there? Anthony Gonzales (34:29) I was in the right place at the right time. I went to USC film school. I was graduating USC film school. Everyone at USC film school wanted to do film. The story I like to tell is that on the first day of school, they're like, who are your favorite directors? I'm like, Quentin Tarantino. And they're like, and like in another class, they're like, anyone see any good movies? And everyone's like, sex lies and videotapes. And they're naming these like obscure independent movies. I'm like, well, I saw The Rock. I thought The Rock was amazing. Madelyn Cunningham (35:01) You Anthony Gonzales (35:13) And they like all turn their nose at me and laugh. I'm like, OK. And I was like, well, whatever. I want to do television anyways. And they're like, you're at USC film school and you came here to do television. I'm like, yeah, I really like Boy Meets World. I want to direct Boy Meets World. So that's like my story. And then the I'm graduating on my instructor, the head of the television department. He got a phone call from his friend, Don Wolman, and Don Wolman was like, hey. I'm looking for college kids, do you have any college kids who would want to be in this new thing called reality TV? And he was like, hey, Tony, you should go talk to my friend. They're looking for like college kids to do this new format called reality TV. I'm like, okay, cool. And I went in there and I was like, yeah, I can do this. And then they hired me. And then, and then I was like, yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (35:53) That's wild. This new format. That's so crazy to be right on in that first wave. That's wild. Anthony Gonzales (36:01) Yeah, yeah, it's technically, yeah, yeah. I mean, I like to think that reality TV has been at the inception of television. I think the first reality TV show was actually a radio show called Hidden Microphone. No, I haven't. What is this? Madelyn Cunningham (36:10) Yes. Yes, have you read Cue the Sun? okay. So it's a book called Cue the Sun by Emily Nussbaum and it's the origins of reality TV. And it talks about exactly what you're saying about how the hidden camera show, the radio show has been around and this sort of desire to be voyeuristic. It's a great read or listen, I highly recommend. But the fact that they're calling it... Anthony Gonzales (36:37) Check it out. Madelyn Cunningham (36:39) a new wave and you were sort of on the, you know, in the beginning waves of Big Brother, which is such a juggernaut in our industry and it's referenced constantly. It's so wild. So how did your role, 279 episodes, evolve from, you know, you first coming on to when you left? Anthony Gonzales (36:52) So I started as like a robotic camera operator. So I'm fairly technical. in those days, I don't know how they do it now, in those days, the robotic camera operator was also responsible for like operating the iris and controlling the white balance of all the cameras. So the cameras kind of moved from room to room and from inside to outside. behind the two-way glass. And so I would, it was called a shader. And I would, yeah, I would make sure the white balance was correct and then, yeah, operate the robotic cameras and try to get them in the best spot so that we had the best coverage. And then, then they introduced challenges. And then Brian Smith was directing, he was chosen to direct the challenges. And I was kind of like his, his lackey. And then Brian left and when Brian left I took over and started doing like or yeah I started doing the food comps, veto comps and what other comps I just all the comps so I worked with the challenge team and come up with a camera plot and stage the game and then and then we'd shoot it. Madelyn Cunningham (37:50) Mm-hmm. It's so crazy. how, okay. So what did that show teach you about being a director, Anthony Gonzales (38:03) I mean we would focus on the 180 line a lot so as the like lead switcher it's not even called a director is the lead switcher like I was kind of overseeing all the verite directors and when and I just kind of just keep hammering like is this I'm sure it come off as polite as this, but is that the best angle we could use here for this shot? it, it feels like we're crossing the 180 line. Is there no way to beat that? If we move this camera here and bump this camera here, is that possible? If you use this as your wide, would that work better? Who are they talking about? Who are they talking about? Do we know where that person they're talking about is? What are they doing? Can we cut to them? Can we do that? And it was fun. It was fun because it was less. We had less record decks. So even though there was like 50 cameras, we could only record, I think, four or eight at the time. And so that was fun because you had to make decisions. And so you had to make decisions quickly. So that was fun. And so quickly coming up with. Madelyn Cunningham (38:39) Can we cut to Anthony Gonzales (39:03) camera plot. So coming up with a camera plot instantly. So they would come and they would sit down and then you instantly have to come up with a camera plot and coverage instantly without knowing who was there. And so that was that I think it taught me how to come up with camera plots pretty quickly and how to do it relatively fast in my head. Madelyn Cunningham (39:25) Yeah, yeah, like make decisions quickly. that's so fascinating. Is there a house guest from any season who was like fun or really challenging? aren't directing them, but I guess to observe. Anthony Gonzales (39:36) No. Well, Evil Dick was fun, but he would stay out. Madelyn Cunningham (39:40) I thought so. Anthony Gonzales (39:43) he would stay up super late and selfishly, you know, we have a food competition at like whatever, like the food competition has to shoot at this time so that it could be an edit by noon so that it could be on air the next day. And so it's like, Dick is awake. What do we do? And it's like we have to adjust our whole schedule to evil dick to like keep the camera team working. And I'd be like, I'm like, we gotta send these camera people home because I need them tomorrow to have eight, eight, eight. Madelyn Cunningham (40:11) Yeah, right, right. Because there's rules about like when you rap and when you can call the next day, like we gotta move. That's so funny that there's not, I guess there wouldn't be like rules of like lights out. Now you know why they do it on Love Island, because it's like go to bed guys. We gotta keep our day. that's so funny. Wait, is he known as Evil Dick or did you call him Evil Dick because of his sleeping schedule? That's his... Anthony Gonzales (40:23) No, because you... Yeah. Go to bed, yeah. No, no, no. He was like he was like that's his like that was his his moniker. He was like a rock star. He like he like worked at like, I don't know, he worked at someplace in Hollywood and he was like an aging rock star and he had like flame tattoos and he called himself Evil Dick. But the but I think the best. I mean, I'm I'm like season one through 10, like I'm kind of a expert on season one through 10 as things go on, it's harder. I'm a big fan of Janelle. Madelyn Cunningham (40:48) Okay, that's so funny. Incredible. Anthony Gonzales (41:03) Janelle and Howie's they were cool and then I forget his name I think his name was Dan but he faked his own death on like a celebrity on a master stroke masterstroke of reality television yeah he was great Madelyn Cunningham (41:15) Well, I feel like that goes down in history as like one of those moments. That's so, so wild. Claim to Fame, we've talked about earlier. It's such a clever format. It's celebrity adjacent for those of you who maybe don't watch or don't know the premise. It's where a house full of 10, 12 strangers come in and you're trying to figure out who, what celebrity or notable person they are related to. Anthony Gonzales (41:18) Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (41:38) and they are creating their own fake storylines and maybe even their own names. And they're rolling out clues throughout the entire series to try and figure out, you know, this person's related to Reba McIntyre, this person's related to Trace Atkins or whatever. And it is hosted by Kevin and Frankie Jonas. Makes sense, right? They're celebrities and related. So what was it like working with them and why, like how? I feel like they influenced the tone of the show a good bit, because they're very funny and they talk about the whole forgotten Jonas trope. How is it working with those two for the show? Anthony Gonzales (42:17) mean, amazing. They're on time. mean, yeah, we love that they're on time and they know they know their host copy and yeah, and they are engaged in the show. So, I mean, very easy. Even them, just like the producer Scott kind of preps them. Madelyn Cunningham (42:21) And we love that. Anthony Gonzales (42:39) tells them what they're doing and what the points are and who did what that day. Like I have no interaction with them. He'll like disappear for an hour and talk to them. And then they basically show up on set and then through their ear I just say, all right, and go. And then they start. then I'll be like, hold on one second. Like I'll just tell them to hold. And then they'll hold and they'll stand there they'll just look. And then we'll build tension. We're like, okay, and go again. And then they'll be like, and so and so you're eliminated or this or that, you know. Madelyn Cunningham (43:08) Okay, so they're bugged in with you. Okay. Anthony Gonzales (43:11) Yeah, and I only commute, like I, like I doubt they know what I even look like. but yes, but they. Madelyn Cunningham (43:16) I kind of, you really do take that whole like we are, we are completely separating ourselves to a new level. I kind of love that. It sounds like you, and you, you only cue them when absolutely necessary because they're pros, you know, at end of the day too. Anthony Gonzales (43:30) Right, so... my AD will release the cast, the cast will come in, the cast will sit down and then I'll make sure everything's groovy and I'll be like, okay, go ahead. And then they'll walk in and then they'll stand there, they'll look and then I'll be like, okay, go ahead. And then they'll start reading the host copy and then we'll get to a point where it says hold. We'll make sure, well, consult with everyone in the room. Are we good? Yes, we're good. And then I'll be like, okay, let's continue on. So yeah, it's very hands off. Madelyn Cunningham (44:00) Yeah, do you know who's related to who? Anthony Gonzales (44:04) I can find out, I can know, it's important for me to know who's who, and so I try not to remember, which I know is like a ridiculous thing to say, but I actively do try not to remember who's who, but what I'll be like is why is this clue important and who is this clue important to? Madelyn Cunningham (44:05) Okay. Right, that's right. Exactly. Right, right, yes. Anthony Gonzales (44:26) So like in a challenge, they'll be like, this is that and then I'll be like, okay, how can I visually make this connection? Madelyn Cunningham (44:33) Like that was a drop of information and you know that because you know who they're related to or how did they, know, Freudian slip something that you caught because you know, that makes sense. Anthony Gonzales (44:39) right. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (44:45) You're working within a lot of constraints a little bit. So, you know, unless you really get a lot of freedom to take it, but not only, you know, creator, showrunner, producers, production company, every network, every streamer has their own tone as well. We know ABC is very for quadrant. Netflix. little sexier, can push the envelope a little more. You're not doing any crazy contrast lighting in your interview setups on ABC, but maybe you can get away with that on Netflix. So you're also working within the stylistic confines of the network or streamer, What was the case on perfect match? Is that something where you really got to... Anthony Gonzales (45:26) I think I went a little too far. They gave me a lot of freedom season one and I might have gone a little bit too far with it. I was just like. I wanted it. I was I was inspired by Too Hot to Handle and I was like, too hot to handle using all this neon and all this fun colors. I was like, I want to use this. And they're like, you can do neon. We just don't want to see the neon tubes. I'm like, no problem. And then it was like I had like really bright. I don't know. Madelyn Cunningham (45:31) Why? Why do you say that? Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (45:53) There's some scenes that were like, I had like a fake moon and I made that fake moon like a really crazy blue. And so. Madelyn Cunningham (46:00) Are you a creative if you don't look back on your work and cringe? It really like, you know what I mean? It has to happen. So I was just watching it today. was watching Perfect, catching up on Perfect Match today. It's so funny. I'm on the season with, I think it's the latest season, it's with Harry Jowsey. Anthony Gonzales (46:06) You think? with episode, with season. Yes. yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (46:17) Yeah, You say season one, you like pushed it really hard. And so how did you then like kind of scale back and really even out for two and three? Anthony Gonzales (46:26) found this photo season one. It was like, I know, I was into vaporwave. I don't know. was like during the pandemic, I got really into like video games and so I made it very like, I had like this vision of making it very like Miami hyper, Yeah. Hyper real. Yeah. Which I just call it vaporwave or synth wave. It doesn't exist. Madelyn Cunningham (46:35) Sure. like Miami like cool yeah Sure, sure. Anthony Gonzales (46:51) And then it was like, the issue was is that it didn't feel, I think it didn't feel real. And so we really had to come to Jesus meeting and talked about it and we're like, hey, how can we make it feel more real? So I think when you watch season two, which you'll see as we use a lot more warmer colors, you'll see a lot more golds and tungsten warm light contrasted with more just white even lights. I still like color, so you'll see on the walls we have these fun plastic artworks that are custom made. So we have a lot of that. then... Yeah, just trying to make the coming and going. super important of like people who are leaving and coming. like having the kapal and the smoke to give it atmosphere and then the slow motion and then kind of like that's like hyper real slow motion. And then once they hit that door, then it's like no more slow motion. It's all as real. It tries to feel as real as possible. So that's kind of it. But yeah, we still try to do one thing that we do that people have a hard time with and don't like and you would never do on like a show like a network show is we try to like incorporate as much of the shoulder or the back of the head or as many people in the shot as possible for the close-ups like our close-ups aren't just like floating head in space it's we try to incorporate a little bit of the shoulder so it feels more real or natural and sometimes I'll get caught and I'll get in trouble and I'll miss something Madelyn Cunningham (48:15) Mm-hmm. Anthony Gonzales (48:20) But I think it's okay because it feels more real. I mean, reality is always more interesting than kind of like whatever we can kind of come up with, right? And so if you can just sit back and let it happen, I think you get the best results. It's just sometimes it's scary for some people I find, like I'll be sitting next to somebody and they'll start, a producer will start freaking out. Like we got to do something, we got to do something. Nothing's happening. What are we doing? And it's like, you just, I think you just have to wait. I think I don't think you, I don't, I don't think we have to do anything. I mean, I don't say that. I don't tell them what to do. But I don't tell anyone what to do. But yeah, I just, I think you just have to wait and it will, it will unfold. It's, it's tough. I think it's, it's tough when the network's there and the network's sitting there. And it's like, these people are just playing cards or these people are just Madelyn Cunningham (48:57) Right. Anthony Gonzales (49:16) you know, playing ping pong like this isn't interesting. This is not interesting television. It's like, no, at the mo at this, you're right. At this moment in time, it's not interesting. Madelyn Cunningham (49:24) Right. You came in at a weird time, Dave. Okay, like I swear it gets better. Anthony Gonzales (49:29) You Right, but it's like, but it costs a lot of money for us to sit there and watch these people play cards, right? Right, right? Like it's thousands of tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars to film these people play cards, right? And it's not like, the thing, but the thing is, is that you can't say, like you can't let your guard down and you can't say, okay, they're playing cards, stop rolling. Cause the second you stop rolling, the second you stop rolling, they're like, Madelyn Cunningham (49:35) Sure, of course. Right, and that's all they're thinking. Yeah. Of Anthony Gonzales (49:57) you they're playing cards and then they'll just you know they'll say something wild like we gotta break up that couple or we gotta do this or we gotta do that Madelyn Cunningham (50:02) Right, right, right. Do you find that on Perfect Match, they brought in, it's so funny, because we're now entering an interesting era of categorization with talent, where it's still a reality contestant, but they've done multiple reality shows. So they're kind of a reality celeb, they're pretty seasoned, and then we have what I would consider a normie, which is someone on Survivor. who has never done a show before, who's kind of new to the game, I guess. What are the biggest kind of key differences you see when you have on Perfect Match, seasoned sort of reality cast members versus normies who are kind of doing this for the first time? Is it a bit easier, is your job easier when you've got people who've kind of been on set and sort of done it before? Anthony Gonzales (50:48) Like, I don't think it affects my job much at all. the hardest part, I would say, is when you take a reality TV star and you make them the host of a TV show. So, like if you take an Abby Lee Miller who has zero hosting experience. Madelyn Cunningham (50:51) Mm. Anthony Gonzales (51:06) and then you put her in a position where she has to be the host and you're like you then you start asking her to do stuff like slow down can you say that again go now well not that your day's eaten up it's that they tend to be like not they don't want to listen to you because they've never listened to you and then it's like no that's not how i would say it no that's not what i do no that's that doesn't make sense Madelyn Cunningham (51:16) then your day is just eaten up. not receptive, I see. Anthony Gonzales (51:33) And you're like, okay. Or they don't know what the host copy is. So they walk in and they're standing there and they're like, you're doing this or you're doing that. And so yeah, so that's, I would say that's the biggest change. But like on Perfect Match, I think what we find is depending on what show they've been on and what level of producing. So sometimes that gets confusing. So sometimes people will be like, what do want me to do? And we're like, and again, not me, but the producers will be like, I don't hear them say this, do whatever you want, whatever you want. They're like, you're right. But what do you want me to do? Whatever you want. You told us you were going to come here and find love. Madelyn Cunningham (52:11) Go do it. Anthony Gonzales (52:11) right? Go do it. So and then sometimes sometimes they have like a hard time with that and then other times they're they find it refreshing or if they're from a show where that producing style is used then they already know what to do and they don't ask us what to do they're just like no I'm here to find love and then I'll go find it. Madelyn Cunningham (52:26) Right, right. They like know how to self-propel their story as well as, you know, in the confessionals talk about what they're going through and their reactions and stuff. And I imagine that is learned a little bit. are you ever, you've seen a lot of people. I mean, you've studied people, whether it's on big brother, I mean, dance moms, undercover boss prank shows where those are like highly funny, but emotional people are in situations they never thought they'd been in. You've got perfect match, claim to fame. I mean, all, all these things. What, are you ever surprised or shocked by how people act? Just in... Anthony Gonzales (53:03) I think my one superpower is that I know what a person's gonna do like four seconds before they do it as long as I'm watching it through a camera. Madelyn Cunningham (53:15) so you have an intuition. You feel like you're just not shocked or surprised. Anthony Gonzales (53:19) Yeah, like I'm like, this person's about to cry. this person's going to go. This person's going to stand up and go yell at this person. this person's going to do that. Like I, I. And so I'm like, hey, Suzy, what's his name's about to storm off. Can you be ready to stand up and spin around? He's going to go talk to so and so. And so and then four seconds later, he stands up. He walks over my camera operator. I'm like, okay, he's going. She then knows to like spin around and get the person he's going to go talk to. And so... Madelyn Cunningham (53:48) Yeah, I imagine that predictive superpower comes in handy, certainly. Anthony Gonzales (53:52) But it only works, it only works if I'm watching them with like 50 cameras. So like, like in my real life, I have like a hard time understanding. Madelyn Cunningham (53:58) Interesting. You're like in real life, I don't know what people are gonna do. I have no idea. I are you ever shocked by how well people lied or are you ever shocked by just how kind of deceptive people can be in general to win these shows or to get what they want? Anthony Gonzales (54:16) I don't know, I don't know. I guess I just follow whatever they're doing and what they're and so I think the more objective you can be the better it is. If you know that they're lying and who they're lying to and if you're not shocked by it you stay more objective and then you can help craft shots to show the person that they're lying to or lying about. Madelyn Cunningham (54:33) Mm. Anthony Gonzales (54:41) And so then you're able to better tell the story. So yeah, I just try to stay as objective as possible. I will admit. Madelyn Cunningham (54:46) Okay, yeah, so it's not, you're not labeling things as good or bad. You're just like, get it, okay. Anthony Gonzales (54:55) And then sometimes, like when I'll watch the show on air or when I, yeah, like when it's show airs, I do, I do get that giddy, like whatever you're explaining, like, I'm like, my gosh, that person's lying. I'm like, I do, I get sucked into it after the show airs, not during the show. And sometimes like if I'm watching the show with a friend or something, like, didn't you know that was going to happen? Weren't you there? I was like, yeah, I was there. I was there. And it's like. Madelyn Cunningham (55:21) But I understand that when you, your thought process is you're not there to enjoy, you're not there to like absorb a storyline, your directive and your is clear, it's coverage. Like that, like, and tone and like, it's just so, you're not reacting to things the same way we would as an audience at all. That makes sense. You're on a, you're on the clock. like, and you know your directive. So it's much more, I would imagine just like technical and job forward than emotional. and trying to remain sort of in the middle is so key to what you do. What's the most difficult decision you've ever had to make on set or in your process at all? Anthony Gonzales (56:00) No, it's definitely imprep. Like the whole TV shows, one or lost imprep. So if I don't have what I need on the day, like it's not going to show up in Tulum, Mexico in five minutes. Right. Like there's no like if I if I didn't think far enough ahead, it won't land there. So. And then. Yeah, prep is where all the decisions are made because that's where everyone is. So everyone comes to the table. There's usually a big meeting and we talk about this is what's going to happen. This is what the show is going to look like. This is the show is going to feel like. These are the things we're going to try to get. And so having those conversations on set are both expensive and not very productive because it's like if you're like, I want to do this thing by a waterfall. on the day. It's like how are going to secure a waterfall on the day? But if you know two or three weeks beforehand you're like it'd be nice if we did something by a waterfall you have the time to make it happen. So not and then I guess my the hardest part is trying to anticipate all the needs and everything before you get to set. Madelyn Cunningham (57:08) When it comes to hiring, do you kind of have a go-to crew? Anthony Gonzales (57:12) I do have a go-to crew. I have a lot of great people that I work with and it's a bummer when there isn't enough time to bring everyone on. So like what will happen is like someone won't be available and then I'll meet a new person and now my my roster is you know 50 people instead of like four people you know so it's it's a bummer when I have to make those decisions. And then It's really the worst part about our business, I think. I know we like to try to keep things positive, but it's all relationship based. so, and so like, I know that I try to be as thoughtful and respectful to like my team because I know I try to treat them the way I want. Madelyn Cunningham (57:42) Totally. Anthony Gonzales (57:54) people that hire me to treat me. So I try to be as open and honest and as transparent with them as possible, just because I'm hoping that the people that hire me are also as transparent and honest with me. And so... Madelyn Cunningham (58:05) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is tough. You always want to bring people with you, know, especially when you, when you have a shared language, a shared rapport and you're just comfortable with each other and how you work. Anthony Gonzales (58:10) Yes. Madelyn Cunningham (58:17) What do you think the future of reality entertainment looks like? There's so much conversation about this right now. Anthony Gonzales (58:24) I think it's, I think a lot of it is going to YouTube. think, I think what's fun about reality TV or what was fun at the beginning is that you were interacting and seeing people for who they were. Like you had really, you had access to them, but you didn't usually have. And now with YouTube, you're kind of able to not only can you watch your favorite YouTuber, but then you can like comment. And if you're lucky, your YouTuber who you idolize will email you back. And so that's like a huge that's something that I feel like we can't provide in reality TV. I like dating shows. I like. I like dating shows, like competition cooking shows, I like, I mean, to me, it's controversial. I don't see any difference between like a baseball game or a football game versus Survivor or Ninja Warrior, right? Like in my mind, those are both reality TV shows. Both are kind of made up and both of them, we kind of follow the storylines. And so far, you're too... Go. Yes. And so... Madelyn Cunningham (59:20) Mm-hmm. Right, here's your little world, here's the rules within your world, like go. May the best man win. Anthony Gonzales (59:32) Yeah, so I like seeing different competition shows because in my mind I'm like, these are like different sporting events. And I love seeing love shows because I like seeing how people interact. I'm trying to think of like the narrative shows I watch and how they're fun to watch, but it's like, I don't know, when I watch... Madelyn Cunningham (59:38) Yeah. Anthony Gonzales (59:52) Back when MTV used to be a thing, when I would watch Teen Mom and I'd see how these people would parent, right? I'd be like, that's not how you want to do it. I don't know. I feel like I would always learn so much from reality TV about myself and how to kind of be a better person by not mimicking what the people on the reality TV were doing. Madelyn Cunningham (1:00:10) yes, and especially in the years where, frankly, where it was just much more unfiltered. The first couple of seasons of Vanderpump, Southern Charm, there is a savviness, I think, to lot of ensemble cast reality shows now that there's a veil and a polish that didn't used to be there. And that human behavior and emotion and reactiveness was much more raw. And you're right, there was a lot of... A lot of learning that just feels like can't be accomplished when it's a scripted character. What about any, do you have, again, I know you're not thinking too much, not bringing emotion into set, but on like perfect match, are there any contestants that you're like, they're great. Anthony Gonzales (1:00:41) Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (1:00:50) Okay. Anthony Gonzales (1:00:51) No, no, no, I'm just trying to think. I'm trying think of the season you're watching. Who's the girl with the bob? Madelyn Cunningham (1:00:55) We got, okay, we've got Harry, we've got Micah, we've got, ooh, we've got Jessica, we've got... Anthony Gonzales (1:01:02) I mean, Jessica's the best. Madelyn Cunningham (1:01:04) Yeah, I mean, she's the girl from Love is Blind who was like, when you see what you missed, you are going to choke. I love her for that. We've got Dom. There's, There's, my goodness. Yeah, there's a lot of personalities. Anthony Gonzales (1:01:10) Yes. Yes. from Comdom. The girl I forgot her name the girl from the circle with the dark hair. She's like Greek. I think she's really cool. I like Stefan Stefan seems like he's easy. He seems like he's easygoing. Jessica. like I like Jessica because she's Madelyn Cunningham (1:01:28) yeah. Anthony Gonzales (1:01:33) Jessica's interesting because she is like pretty attractive, relatively speaking, right? Like everyone would, right? She looks, she's good looking aesthetically and she's really real and down to earth, right? She has a kid and she has like real human struggles. And so I like, from like everything that I've said, I feel like she represents like kind of a good mix of what reality TV could be. You can be still. Madelyn Cunningham (1:01:48) Right. Anthony Gonzales (1:02:00) flashy and like stylized and still be true and emotional and so I think that's probably why I like her because I like to do like I like to put like pink lights and things that are stylized into my show but I also still want it to be real like I want to be visually interesting to watch but also real Madelyn Cunningham (1:02:15) Mm-hmm. Tohlu's on this season. Yeah, I love Tohlu. Anthony Gonzales (1:02:21) Tolu's great. Tolu's smart. Yeah, she's smart and she's smart in a, She's smart and clever and honest. Yeah, I think anyone who's genuine and honest is what you want. You don't want anyone who edits themself. Like I would never make a... Madelyn Cunningham (1:02:34) Yes. Francesca from previous seasons also, right? Anthony Gonzales (1:02:40) Francesca's great. Yeah, I just Again, like she's as a mom. I don't know much about Francesca, but she seemed I guess she was great She was mean and she was kind of controlling which is what you want Madelyn Cunningham (1:02:44) She's a mom now too. Yes. And then I didn't even ask you about Nick Lachey, the 90s girl in me, absolutely dying. I asked you about filming with the Jonas, with the JoBros, but I mean, he's a seasoned, know, he does love his blind him and Vanessa together, but it's just him on Perfect Match. Anthony Gonzales (1:03:09) I would say, I would say if you, all the people I've worked with, all the like high famous actors and high profile people I've worked with, like if you lined them up or if you showed each one of them a photo of me, I think he's the only one who'd be like, that's Tony from Perfect Match. Like I've had breakfast with him. Like I know, I, he's professional and he knows his lines when he shows up on set. Madelyn Cunningham (1:03:22) that's nice. That's nice. Anthony Gonzales (1:03:32) And so, like, he doesn't use a... Not that... The way he works is he memorizes the host copy, shows up, delivers the host copy, and then gets out of there. And that saves us so much time. And it just makes it so easy. And he knows who the cast is. And so he's... So when he is in there, and he walks in and he stands there at the pool or... you know, wherever he's standing, wherever we tell him to stand, he walks in, he says hello, and he at least can interact with those people and talk to them. And he's smart enough to know, like if they do invite him to have a drink or a shot, he'll go and have that drink and shot. And then he knows to come back to his mark, and he'll gather them, pulls them together and then goes from there. Madelyn Cunningham (1:04:16) Yeah, Anthony Gonzales (1:04:17) And then this way they don't feel like they're being... The cast doesn't feel like they're being directed. And it helps. Because if Nick Lachey stands here, everyone's going to turn and face Nick Lachey. And chances are I have a bunch of cameras right to the left or right of Nick Lachey. So then all the people are kind of looking at the cameras. So I see all their beautiful faces. Right. Madelyn Cunningham (1:04:39) Yeah, so again, it's that art of the setup of like, if the North star is Nick and Nick does this, then everyone else will follow without us having to direct them too much. Well, I just, again, such a big fan of you, all the different shows that you do, the work that you're doing. And so happy that you came on to just talk about your creative process and the kind of behind the scenes of all of these shows that we know and love. It's really been awesome having you. Anthony Gonzales (1:05:03) Thank you so much. Madelyn Cunningham (1:05:09) Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you have a wonderful Friday and a great rest of your weekend. I just, have so much fun with this show and I appreciate you guys listening so much and it just means a lot. I'm getting to follow my curiosity and there's just nothing better. We've got some great guests lined up. I'm so happy it's spring. The sun is out, the days are longer. I feel like a different human. I don't know about you. I just finished the Bachelor finale that was, it was unprecedented. It didn't get as wild as I hoped it would get. But they did announce that the Golden Bachelor cast will be joining the Bachelor in Paradise cast all in one kind of big golden paradise situation. So I think that's interesting because ABC is up against all of the other huge dating shows on all of the other networks and platforms. And the one really special element I think they have is the Golden franchise. So gonna be really interesting to see how that goes. I think it was a good move to bring kind of renewed interest back into the franchise. Have a great weekend. Don't forget, like, subscribe, rate, review, all the things. And don't forget, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube, if you'd like. They are available at The Unscripted Files, on YouTube. If you get a hankering, want to put it on. But we are always here, every Friday, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks so much, guys. See you next week. Madelyn Cunningham (1:06:32) The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.