Jess (00:00)
world building is like something that we've been trying to focus on and we consistently have been hearing from networks. I think looking at traders, which obviously is like the format right now, they really leaned in. They, I know we truly are. I feel like that's like the golden child that we're all trying to become.

Madelyn (00:01)
Hmm.

We are all beholden to traitors. We are. Yeah.

It is, yes.

Madelyn (00:27)
Hey, hey, welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madeline Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today, we have a director of development on who has worked on everything from celebrity-driven true crime specials

two huge dating formats and everything in between.

She currently works with the team behind some of the greatest hits like Are You The One, The Trust on Netflix, also comes from a really robust celebrity driven true crime background. So we talk about true crime as a genre, what's actually moving the needle,

and what she really feels like is working in the marketplace. here is my chat with producer Jessica Shikami.

Madelyn (01:09)
Hi Jessica, welcome to The Unscripted Files, how you doing?

Jess (01:13)
Good, thank you so much for having me.

Madelyn (01:16)
I'm so excited to have you. crossed paths a while back and I always was like, I want to, I need to circle back with Jessica. Like I want to hear more, learn more about Jessica. So I'm excited that we get to hop on. You're the director of development at Blink 49 Studios, which is, which was formerly Lighthearted Studios responsible for all the hits like, Are You The One? The Trust on Netflix. It's a big dating competition

tightens in the format industry really. So I'm super excited to dive in with you.

Jess (01:44)
Thank you. Yeah, it's really fun. I'm excited to dig in too.

Madelyn (01:50)
So I want to know, first of all, how'd you get into this industry? Like, it something when you were young, you loved reality or like many people was it kind of a windy road and you ended up in development?

Jess (02:04)
I think it's a bit of both. I remember growing up watching MTV and Jersey Shore, My Super Sweet 16, all the TLC shows, Four Weddings. And I just remember my parents were always like, why are you always watching that shit? It was like, you should be watching something else, not reality all the time. But I feel like I always kind of sparked to reality and love those stories and can really connect with them.

and I never really growing up, didn't think of it as a career, but as I got older and like the question of like, what am going to major in college? I ultimately went all in and majored in TV, at Ithaca college, even though I up to that point hadn't touched a camera or hadn't done anything in TV, but I kind of was like, I really like writing. Like I like stories. I think I want to just see, feel this out and see how it goes.

majored in that. And then after college, like moved to LA kind of out on a whim. I always was very like New York city. I'm going to do that. went for the page program and like made it till the final rounds and then didn't get it. And then one of my friends in LA from Ithaca was like, Hey, I have an extra room. Do you want to move here? And I was like, sure. Okay. And like literally a week later, me and my dad were driving out to LA.

didn't have a job or anything set up and was just like, all right, let's see how this goes. But ultimately I, my first job was in commercial production. It was just a really good learning experience. I was working for the managing director of a company out in Santa Monica. That's really where I like learned how to like work with a crazy amount of people and some crazy people. But ultimately it was like, I want to get back into TV. Like I want to do the TV thing. Worked through

Madelyn (03:47)
Yeah

Jess (03:53)
at Gersh and like did the agency route, um, working for, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, it was a great experience. Like honestly working for an agency as like a 23 year old felt like college part two. Like it was a very good, like camaraderie experience, learned a lot. I'm still good friends with the agents I worked for who were amazing. Um, they

Madelyn (03:56)
I didn't realize that. I love that.

Jess (04:20)
Bill Gersh and Laura McDonald, they're still agents in the unscripted space. So it's really fun to get to work with them now on a different level. ⁓ But worked there for a year and a half or so, and then jumped into working for production companies. So I worked for Authentic Entertainment, freelance on training spaces, the reboot season. It was really fun.

Madelyn (04:28)
Mm-hmm.

my gosh, iconic. Yes.

Jess (04:47)
Yeah, got to work on that and then worked at 44 Blue and grew there through current and development and then ended up at Lighthearted on development. So it's been a bit of a road, but I think ultimately like I kind of knew I always wanted to be in the unscripted space.

Madelyn (05:09)
Yeah, you definitely had your, it sounds like you had your site set early on too. didn't realize, Laura's my agent, so I didn't realize that we had that connection. Yeah, I love that.

Jess (05:14)
Oh, yeah, yeah. think that's

ultimately how we first, I think she first like maybe sent you to me because she knew me. But yeah, she's great.

Madelyn (05:22)
probably.

Yes. Okay. I love that. feel like working on the agency side is so, it's such a good learning experience. You're seeing like how deals are made, how things are packaged, what pitches are out there. It's a great learning experience. Just really see the ins and outs of all types of different deals. And so I bet that was really incredible. And then at,

Jess (05:34)
Mm-hmm.

Madelyn (05:48)
44 Blue, yeah. And then I was like Blue 44, but that is like a football, that sounds like a football play. 44 Blue is like also another huge titan in the industry across scripted and unscripted. What projects or productions over there did you get to oversee that you were really proud of?

Jess (06:07)
I mean, I worked a lot on their true crime shows. So that was like my first experience in that space, which like was really crazy, but really cool. So I worked on a lot of their like oxygen shows. So real murders of Orange County, real murders of Atlanta. And then I'm trying to remember Twisted Sisters on ID.

Madelyn (06:10)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (06:30)
Those were like the main true crime shows. Yeah, Khloe Kardashian. And then there is the Tyler Henry show on Netflix was another big one. He's the medium. He's really cute. I like, I like wasn't sure if I like fully believed it at first. And then after I met him a few times, I feel like I was like, okay, I feel like he's legit. Like he's just.

Madelyn (06:31)
Chloe Kardashian, right? Yeah.

Is he the medium?

Okay, he is.

Really?

Jess (06:57)
like meeting him and like experiencing him as a person. was like, okay. I feel, like honestly like do believe that he's legit after all that. But yeah, working on that show was really cool.

Madelyn (07:10)
I am really skeptical of mediums, I don't know. I've seen a lot of different videos where I'm like, whoa. I don't know. I have to believe that there are some people that can, yeah, I'm kind of into it. I'm into the woo-woo. And the fact that you work behind the scenes and are like, yes, I'm into it, is I love. do you feel like, is there a time you can look back on early in your career, early in development?

Jess (07:25)
Me too. Yeah.

Madelyn (07:36)
Is there a?

And I'm asking this because I can think of my own, but was there like a common sort of mistake you made early on? Like for me, I'll give an example. It was like, why hasn't this been made yet? This is a brilliant idea. And you're like, because it's, it's everyone has tried and it hasn't stuck or whatever. Like, is there like a common thing that you did early in development that now years later you've learned to sort of evolve your process at all?

Jess (08:00)
Hmm. that's an interesting question. Yeah. I yeah, I feel like thinking about when we see a lot of like our favorite docu series and it's like, like it's just a group of people that are like friends and they have fun. And like, why can't we find more people like that? It's like, you think that that's like such an easy process. And then once you actually start going out and like,

interviewing people and trying to like find these characters, it's like, this takes forever. This is like a huge process. And it's like, so hard to find those people that end up being on screen.

Madelyn (08:36)
That's such a good point because, it's a lot of the reasons why I feel like producers, casting directors don't get the credit they deserve because it, it can, and don't get me wrong, it's supposed to feel this way, right? The effect, it's supposed to feel like we just stumbled upon this group of people and look at all the things that are happening and look at all the chemistry and the chaos, but it actually is very carefully done. It takes forever figuring out the dynamics.

perfecting them. It takes a long time, but it's supposed to feel like it's completely spontaneous. And we just picked up a camera and we're a fly on the wall. But it's why a lot of producers and casting directors don't get the credit they deserve because it's supposed to feel like it just happened, right?

Jess (09:18)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's like, have some friends who are producers, casting people that have worked on like Housewives and some other shows. And it's like, that's like a full time job of like, looking for those people. And like, I honestly feel like that's the type, that's like the type of show that I haven't worked on yet that I want to, to really like, see how even once the characters, we find them and like,

shape them into what stories we wanna tell. I would love to work on those shows and kind of see, okay, so we set up the premise of what we think this group is gonna do over the season, but what actually happens? What actually do we see happen and what comes to screen ultimately in the end? I think that's a really interesting process that I personally haven't gotten to experience yet.

Madelyn (10:09)
the same way. And I'm also trying to do the same. I'm like, this is a total sort of blind spot for me. I have my formats, my dating, my true crime, you know, packages where the celebrity call it a day, but finding that sort of like ensemble out in the wild, like Aki or DocuFollow, I also haven't approached yet. Because like you said, it takes a lot of time. It's much harder than it seems. Everyone wants the next Vanderpump. They want the next Southern charm, Southern hospitality.

Housewives, Below Deck, it takes a lot of time and effort and it's fragile as well because you're dealing with like a whole bunch of real people and different dynamics. But I'm excited for this journey for you. I may take it with you, but I'm a little like, oh God. But yeah, I agree with you. It's sort of a side that I haven't really touched yet. so yeah, I'm excited to hear about your journey there. At 44 Blue,

Jess (10:54)
I know.

Madelyn (11:07)
A lot of true crime there, right? A lot of celeb driven true crime or at least like a really well known figure like Tyler. Is that really where you see a lot of true crime going where it's like, it's just the crime in and of itself and the retelling is not enough anymore, but we now are needing to package it with a piece of IP or a celebrity. Talk to me about true crime as a genre specifically and what we're needing now to

sell it in the marketplace. Because the stakes just keep getting higher, right?

Jess (11:33)
Yeah.

I know, I think it's both yes and no in terms of packaging with the celeb because I feel like at the, I mean, I haven't honestly worked in crime since I've gone into lighthearted or blank 49 now, but at my time at 44 Blue, like it definitely was helpful to have like a Khloe Kardashian on a true crime show, at least having her name on it. But I think at the same time,

I feel like audiences and network execs are getting a little more savvy about like, well, if we just slap like a celeb's name on a story, does that actually do anything? Like now they're like, well, we want the celeb to also either host it or to somehow be on camera on it because if some, if, right. Yeah, so it's feeling like, like having a big celeb on a story is really important.

Madelyn (12:21)
Right, it's not just a vanity,

Jess (12:31)
but if they're not on camera in some way, it seems like it's like we don't really care. So I think it seems like we do need those names, but they need a higher involvement in some way.

Madelyn (12:46)
No, that makes a lot of sense because it's easy to be like, you just kiss you on as an EP so that I can, you we can leverage your audience for marketing or whatever. But yeah, I agree. It's seeming like, no, that doesn't work anymore. We actually need you as an integral part of production on camera promoting whatever. But I'm seeing a lot of that, too. And and again, just think it's interesting because true crime is a genre so incredibly popular, really saturated.

And I talk a lot on this show about what we feel like the next wave of true crime is and again, how we're gonna continue to like evolve the genre, raise the stakes and...

It's a really interesting brief given that we're also required to have to lower budgets season after season.

Jess (13:29)
I know it literally feels like an impossible task. But I mean, I like, feel like, like to crime, like the retro towel and like the way that we have like the interviews and the, and the recrees, like, I think that will always be there. But I also wonder with, with docs, like perfect neighbor, ⁓ where it was, it was told specifically kind of through almost like just, it was just told through archival.

Madelyn (13:33)
Yeah, I know.

Mmm.

Jess (13:59)
and like the materials that they had and it didn't have a voice like purposely it felt kind of like a cold look at something. It just shows that like stories can be told in a different way. I'm not saying that's the best way to tell all stories, but it just shows like a different approach that I think is interesting.

Madelyn (14:20)
I completely agree. I Oscar nominated worthy, right? I, and what I love about that too is a lot of that footage you can, as a storyteller, you can get that with a FOIA request, right? Like you could build a story. And I think that the way that the director just took us through that very visceral body cam footage to tell the entire story.

I thought was a really interesting way to do it. No narrator, no talking heads. And it worked and it made you feel like you were in it. And it also caused a lot of conversation because there was two sides to the story, right? There was like two experiences and it caused conversation which I think is always the point.

which is really, really cool. think she's doing, is she doing Whoopi Goldberg stock now? Maybe I'll cut this if she's not, but I want to say that she is. So at Lighthearted now, Blink 49, you pivoted to something like Lighthearted, literally, dating, competition, formats. Was that a welcome shift for you after sort of working in a lot of true crime? Were you excited to shift over to big formats, dating, and try your hand at that?

Jess (15:11)
He

Totally, yeah, I think that's why I ultimately made the jump because I was like, want to, like formats I think are a part of the industry that's also really growing. And I was like, I don't really have much experience with that. I would love to see what that's like. I'm not gonna lie, it was a difficult transition because like not coming from that world and all of a sudden being thrown into it. I was like, wait, like this is a totally new way of thinking.

So I would say that like, it definitely took me like a year, like a solid year to really feel like I knew fully what was going on and like the way it changed the way that I'm thinking and developing. ⁓ But it was, it's been a really great experience. Like I do feel like I don't know how producers or developers work truly in true crime, like all the time, because it's like mentally and emotionally a lot. Like I don't.

Madelyn (16:13)
Mm.

Yeah.

Jess (16:31)
Especially during the pandemic when I would be like at home writing like crime stories, I was like, this is like dark. Like I need a little something else. So.

Madelyn (16:41)
You gotta have some levity, you gotta balance

it out, right? Yeah, 100%. So what was the, so in that first year of transitioning over, was it more that you were trying to understand how formats are broken, is what we call it, right? We need to break a format, figure it out. And was it also a little bit of like, even understanding what was already out there and having to, like, cause that's a big part of it too, is you can be like, why doesn't someone just do,

Jess (16:45)
Yeah, definitely.

Madelyn (17:10)
this mechanism and you're like, that already exists on this show. So was it a bit of just understanding the entire marketplace and the ecosystem of existing formats and then how creatively you and your team would approach and sort of break them? Was it all of the above?

Jess (17:29)
Yeah, totally. You definitely hit it. I think coming in, like you talked about, about when you first start in development and you're like, why don't we do this? And it's like, no, that's a mob. No, we've done that.

Madelyn (17:38)
Yes.

Yeah, I know. Okay, so for the listeners who

have never heard of M.O.P., I feel like I've maybe mentioned this before. It's most often pitched. And you, as a new baby developer, will get, you will have a lot of M.O.P.s because you're like, obviously this show should exist. It's crazy that it hasn't existed yet. And you will take it out and people will be very kind and tell you that it's a M.O.P. So that's what a M.O.P. is, guys.

Jess (18:09)
But yeah, I think it was a lot of like, like, naivety about being like, like, this is a great idea. Like, let's do this. And it's like, wait, no, this has been done. Or like, we like this has been tried and it failed. ⁓ So I think it was it was totally understanding what's been done, what's out there. And also just like the mechanisms, the way that formats work and how it's like, you need to like balance like

Madelyn (18:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (18:34)
you need to balance the game and how to, I think the whole like gameplay and strategy was a new thing to me that in like more like docu's we're not talking about that at all. It's more, you're following the story, you're telling the story, but like now it's like you're game designing. I think that's still for me, the hardest part of my job because I'm like such the way my brain works, has to like, I'm not a game designer and there are people luckily on my team that are very much in that type of brain.

Madelyn (18:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (19:04)
I lean on them a lot to be like, does this work? Is this fair? Like, but I think that is definitely a piece to me. Even now I'm like trying to develop further because when you like see a really good social competition or social experiment, it should really like be well-designed so that when it's played through, there's all these different mechanics that you're seeing play out that ultimately.

speak to like somebody's character the way that they act.

Madelyn (19:35)
Exactly.

There is so much more than just it's conceptual. And then there's really breaking each decision down to understand why it's being made, how it contributes to the game, how it drives story. And what is it driving towards? That's something that I always like I will

come up with something and like, what are we, what is the ending? What's the, what's, what does it say about the winner? What does our winner look like? What is the, what are they enigmatic of? Like there's, there is so much to answer. It's just not as simple as like, as most people I think may perceive when they're watching these shows. You know what I mean?

Jess (20:10)
Totally.

Yeah. that's, mean, and that's like the way that you could tell something is well designed. It's like, you shouldn't, as a viewer, be like, so then they had to do this thing and then it's this step. Like it should feel very like streamlined and make you as a viewer, focus more on like the story of what's happening and like the actions of like what people are choosing to do.

So I think it's like, definitely, when you see it play out very seamlessly, it's like, okay, like that clearly worked. And the people, the production company is doing their job.

Madelyn (20:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, all the holes were poked and they were all sealed up really nicely. what tell me about, I want to know your creative process. Like obviously I know that you guys are getting, you can get pitches in, but you're doing internal development and that's mainly what your job is. And so what does that look like for you? Where do you get inspiration? If an idea comes to you, what's your next step? Are you making a voice memo? Are you writing it down? And what is your creative process leading to sort of a bigger presentation with your team?

when it comes to a concept or format.

Jess (21:15)
Yeah, I mean, I personally am somebody that's very inspired by a lot of scripted things. So I love watching like movies, shows. And I do have a notes app of like, just if you were to like read through mine, that you'd be like, what is this? Like, there's just like random. You're like, there's just like random little sentences or things. But I definitely will like, be inspired by either.

Madelyn (21:22)
Yes.

What is this? Yeah.

Jess (21:44)
worlds or settings or like premises from the scripted world. And also just like everyday things like questions, because I think a lot of our job when we're pitching shows is like, what is the question that we're trying to test in this show? And I think like finding those unique but also like very relatable questions is a lot of what we're trying to do to connect.

this crazy game or format or whatever we're designing to real life. So I think like finding those questions through everyday life is, is really what I try to do. but I mean, in terms of bringing that forward, I, I, I'm lucky to have a team under me and that's very collaborative. and we generally today's Friday. So today's our, our development brainstorm day. So we always try to like show up with.

Madelyn (22:34)
You

Jess (22:38)
nuggets of things that we're excited about and then talk about them to each other and be like, all right, I like that one or I don't like that one. And then see like, all right, now let's see what the next step is and how to like shape it beyond our little nugget. So I love like working with our team and I feel like with the shows that we're most excited about, it always starts as some, as one thing.

And then in the end, it's something totally different, but it always comes from this random inspiration.

Madelyn (23:14)
Yeah, I mean, I'm imagining that everyone's bringing everything from articles to TikTok videos to, you know, scripted things and everything in between. those are the fun, like, I will say the fun part is the brainstorm and that it's the follow-up meeting after where you're like, okay, wait, does this actually work?

All the magic gets sucked out of it. I've been in so many of those where you're like, at this, this is great. And then when it comes to actually executing, there's always a lot of obstacles or it may not be as easy as it seems. mean, when you look at a timeline of like idea to taking it to market, like, do you guys try to keep to like, okay, we will give this, you know, three to four months and then we got a...

keep it moving? Like, what is your typical timeline from birth of an idea or a concept to taking it to market? How much time do you like to spend and how much is too much time?

Jess (24:10)
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think it honestly depends on the project. There are some that like, once we figure it out, like once we have the idea and we're like, it feels very natural and easy to be like, all right, this, this makes sense. Like I can see the format clearly. Let's get this deck done. Let's get the sizzle done. And it's out the door in like two months or less. but there are some that like, we're always like, we're

that idea, like, we never cracked it. Because I think that like, some some ideas, it's like, we love the premise or the setup or the world. But we know we can't figure out like, okay, we know we want to get to this end point. But like, how do we get there? Like, there's not a clear path. And I think sometimes those ideas will come up and then eventually we we crack it.

Madelyn (24:41)
Yeah, way, way at the bottom of the list, yeah.

Jess (25:08)
And sometimes we still haven't. So it's a bit of like prioritizing. But I do think that unfortunately there are some ideas too that like we fully will flesh out and then it's like, hmm, this still isn't quite right. So I think it is like maybe it is like three or four months that it's like, all right, let's just like put this one at the bottom for now and we'll see if we feel better or crack it in the future.

Madelyn (25:23)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And that happens a lot too. find that a good litmus test for a concept is like if you can stay excited about it for a long period of time because it proves that there's something there. You gotta get it to execs. They've gotta stay excited about it for a long time.

Jess (25:46)
Mm-hmm.

Madelyn (25:55)
And so I find that if you can not become disillusioned by it and like start to question it and remain excited and feel like there's something there and that there's a spark, like that's always a good sign. But even then you never know, it's always a gamble. Are there certain elements, especially right now that you feel like, like we can say it all comes down to good stories, no matter what, if it's age of attraction or Mormon wives or squid games or whatever, we can say like,

Good stories make good TV, when it comes to formats, what do you feel like right now is actually?

penetrating and causing cultural conversation? Is it good gameplay? Is it good strategy? Is it drama? Is it hot people? Like, what is it you feel like that really, is it money? what is it that's actually putting stuff over the line, especially when you guys are developing and you're looking at what type of people are we casting? Like, I'm curious to know if there's certain things that you guys, certain elements that you absolutely infuse because you know it's gonna take it a notch higher.

Jess (26:58)
Yeah, I mean, I think world building is like something that we've been trying to focus on and we consistently have been hearing from networks. I think looking at traders, which obviously is like the format right now, they really leaned in. They, I know we truly are. I feel like that's like the golden child that we're all trying to become.

Madelyn (27:01)
Hmm.

We are all beholden to traitors. We are. Yeah.

It is, yes.

Jess (27:22)
But I think like, when you look at that, it's like,

They have Alan who's this host that fully has leaned in and become the icon with his outfits, his accent, everything, like the setting of the castle and all the players that like dress the part. I think it's like, people want that fantasy, but in other forms now. And it's hard because it's like, I feel like networks are like, we want another show like that, but it can't feel like it's.

Madelyn (27:46)
Mmm.

Jess (27:55)
Trader's the second part. Like it has to be this whole other world. And you're like, all right, well, what is that? But I think world building, right, totally. So I think that, and then obviously, like, I think this is the challenge of any format, like making it feel simple, making the game feel simple, but also having it allow for.

Madelyn (28:03)
Yeah, it's same same but different.

Jess (28:23)
the deviousness and the drama and the backstabbing, like all those elements. But I think something that I tend to do and my team tends to do is like overcomplicate things. it's like, how do we like simplify this so that it's like, you could explain it quickly.

Madelyn (28:41)
Yes, it's such a challenge, right? Because you want all the twists and you want these things, but you also need, it can't be like a hat on top of a hat on top of a hat. There's this trending TikTok sound that's like, only when you get two tokens, can you get another token, but that token, it's like, you don't want it to be that, right? But you also needed to have these twists and turns and gameplay, but the core mechanism.

Jess (28:59)
Thank

Madelyn (29:07)
has to stay simple, it has to be easy to communicate quickly. And I agree, that is the hard part, is like trying to make it dynamic while keeping it simple.

It is incredibly challenging. what is your signature touch on your projects?

Jess (29:24)
Hmm. I would say like, I know this is like overused right now, but like a little bit of like whimsy or like kind of like unexpected touches. Um, I'm, I say that because right now I'm in the midst of like this project that we're trying to get across the line with Peacock. Um, and it's like a big social competition that's like based talking about world building based in this like new big like jungle world.

Madelyn (29:33)
Mmm.

Jess (29:53)
But I think like, like trying to like ultimately at the end of the day, it's like where we're working in reality and unscripted, like even if it is a true crime show, it's like, this is all for entertainment ultimately. And I think it's important to remember that and to infuse some of the like fun flourishes that we can, whether it is like, like a juicy challenge on a dating show.

or like trying to set this up in like an unexpected world or finding cast that bring a different flavor that you're not expecting in this format. think like ultimately trying to like have fun with it and choose those unexpected choices that will make viewers be like, this is interesting. This is different. Like I think that's always like a fun thing that I try.

to keep in mind while I'm making a show.

Madelyn (30:52)
I love that because it's and it's genre dependent, obviously, but I think it's important that it's like, yes, this is serious, but we need to again, we need to ensure like we are specially right now. Like this is pure escapism. This is what we're providing, whether it's a one hour true crime special or a, you know, saucy dating show. Like we have to provide that. And so it's wonderful that you're able to ensure that you're like, hey, let's like

keep it light, let's bring a little something to it always through casting or other choices. Like I love that, that's really special. Is there a project we all have these as developers, like a white whale that you'll kind of always carry a torch for?

Jess (31:31)
Yes, I mean, I think there's a lot of them. But there's always like, I think there's this one show that I always think about that we pitched out and it's basically like a jury duty style show, but a dating show. it's like, I think, I don't know, I always have like a soft spot for it, but I think...

Madelyn (31:34)
Yes, yes.

Hmm.

Jess (31:57)
For us as developers, it's like, there's always gonna be babies that we are like, this is the show that I like wanna get made. And it's hard because it's like, we see shows die more often than not. And you kind of have to like, just move on and be like, all right, onto the next thing.

Madelyn (32:16)
It's so hard. Do you find that you've gotten better at calibrating your percent confidence that a show will go? obviously any show you take out, you need to truly feel like it's going to sell, right? But is there, have you been able to calibrate closer? Like, okay, this is absolutely going. This is undeniable versus like, I could see some issues with this. Cause I haven't. Everything I take out, I'm like, this is going, right?

Jess (32:41)
Hahaha

Madelyn (32:44)
And I wanna know if your calibration has gotten any better because sometimes I'm just totally like, what?

Jess (32:51)
I don't know.

No, I agree with you. I mean, like right now, this also just speaks to our like current environment of like, you off like, I feel like it's harder than ever to really sell anything. ⁓ So when you get any sort of bite, even if it's like, can we meet about this? Or like, you get that follow up meeting or follow up call, like, even that you're like, okay, like this is, this is exciting. This is, this is a good step. Cause I feel like just

Madelyn (33:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jess (33:23)
So many networks, it's like hard to get even to that next step at this point. So I honestly, I feel the same way as you where it's like, like I'm excited to take this out and I think this is great. And so it is a bit like heartbreaking sometimes when you're like, I guess, I guess this isn't the one.

Madelyn (33:27)
Yes.

Yeah, I know. Trust me, it always is. But what is your perspective on projects never dying? With so much changing in the industry, so many mergers and acquisitions, execs constantly rotating, mandates changing, what is your perspective on repackaging or taking it back out after a year or checking back in to be like, hey, it wasn't right six months ago. What is it now? What is your perspective on that? And has it worked out for you in the past where you've been like, we're going to give this one more shot and see what happens?

happens.

Jess (34:13)
Yeah, I think that like now more than ever, that's a reality. that's honestly like we have been looking in our like way back machine of like, as yeah, totally. And it is like that second chance of like, okay, I always love this project. And now the mandates have changed and they are looking for something that is just like that or execs have changed. So I do think that like,

Madelyn (34:17)
Mm-hmm.

Your archive, yeah.

Jess (34:38)
while the mergers are often not great for us, that is a bit of the silver lining of having these mergers and changes is like, sometimes projects do come back and we have like, like from my experience too, we have been pitching some projects that previously we thought were dead. So I do think that that's, that is a real possibility.

Madelyn (35:02)
Yeah, yes, I agree. That is maybe like, the downside is that like projects that were in the works will die. But now we can bring some back to life maybe because and things fall through the cracks to like I said, execs change, they don't know what's been pitched, what's actually been denied, like you never know. So I think it's important to revive things when it makes sense and not I don't I don't want to say not take no for an answer because I don't really love that. But and you have to be strategic about what you're bringing back and it has to

There needs to be a reason, but I do find that, yeah, stuff never really dies. Like put it away for a minute. And you also may have a better, bringing it back to life too, you may have a perspective on it where you can be like, that's why that didn't work. Let's update this creative. Let's do this. So I'm always a big fan of that. And I think it's happening a lot right now. Is there a world, we talked about this earlier about you wanting to get more into that sort of like,

true reality space, but is there like a specific world that you're really curious about exploring or that you saved an article about and it's in your notes app and you're like, this is so fascinating. Anything like that for you?

Jess (36:08)
Hmm. I mean, I, I, yeah, I mean, as we talked about, like, the ensemble is really something that I'm interested in. I was just at home recently at my parents' house and I, like, back in the day, like, growing up, had a, had a Spring Breakers poster from that old movie. And I was like, oh my God, that's...

Madelyn (36:31)
Yes!

Jess (36:34)
And I was thinking, was like, that'd be interesting. I feel like Spring Break is an iconic thing, like MTV Spring Break and that movie and that time in your life. And I'm like, we need to do some sort of Spring Break thing for college kids now and celebrate that time. There hasn't really been, obviously there's problematic things about the way that things.

that it's been done in the past, but I feel like some sort of splashy fun show exploring that one crazy week in people's lives could be kind of fun.

Madelyn (37:16)
I love that. It's very cultural and it's like this moment in time where it's its own ecosystem. It's its own universe, truly. Like you kind of are, at least I can speak from my own experience going on spring break. It's you're like, everything's out the window. You're here for a week. You're living your life. And yeah, I agree. There's something very...

it's its own separate world. just talking about world building like Spring Break in and of itself is that and so yeah, there is something that I love about that. That movie is so iconic by the way. I think my local theater was showing it recently like my local indie theater and I was like, have I absolutely have to go see that again. It was so good. I'm curious to know if there

as you've worked, as you've grown up through the industry, as you've received pitches, as you've pitched yourself, what do you feel like separates a good developer from a great one?

Jess (38:13)
Hmm. That's a, that's a good question. mean, I think obviously we, as we're developing ideas and we're seeing so many ideas, like there's obviously so many things out there, but I think somebody who's able to find like those small little, those small little spots that make their idea unique and stand out like that is so hard.

but I think being able to really like take what is seemingly like, I know we talked about that step of like having an idea and then taking it to that next level. think like that is the hardest part of like taking an idea and having this great premise, but then actually being able to play it out and showing that like, okay, I set up this crazy premise and it's over the top.

but this is how it actually works. And being able to show that these steps in the format or these steps ultimately get to this end that we want. I think that that is the hardest part.

Madelyn (39:22)
Yeah, just actually getting into the nitty gritty of the breaking of the format and not just the high conceptual, like sparkly idea. I totally agree with you. Did you have a mentor coming up through the industry, like formally or informally? And how important do you think that is, especially in what we do?

Jess (39:26)
Mm-hmm.

I wouldn't say that I have like one specific person, I've had people that I think like Bill Gersh is like an example of somebody that like I have, would have continued to like keep in touch with throughout the years. And I'm able to like go to, like ask questions or like check in. But there's also been people at, I would say at like each job that I've been at that

I can kind of like confide in or like ask questions and are able to give me like more honest responses of what I should do. And I would also say even like the people that I like met at Gersh and like have grown or like when I was young and have grown with, I think like being able to, us all to see how like we started as assistants and are now getting up like towards like leadership positions.

I think those people have been really important too, to check in with and say, hey, how do you deal with this problem? how do you go about this issue? So I think those people have been really important also.

Madelyn (40:55)
Yeah, the peers that you've come up in the industry with. Absolutely, I agree. Is there a character trait you have that you feel like is responsible for your success in the industry? Is it your relationship building? Is it your drive? Like, if you could give yourself a moment to sort of be like, yeah, this thing about me has really allowed me to grow and evolve. What would it be?

Jess (41:19)
I think it would be like my reliability and being able to, for people to say like, can you help with this? like, I can depend on you to, to really take this project and take it to the next level. Or if you say you're going to do something, you're going to do it. with, so I think like that has been the biggest thing. whether it is like from like being an assistant to now.

Madelyn (41:23)
Mm.

Jess (41:46)
coming up with ideas and like leading a team. I think just being able to be like, you can trust me and I'm gonna run with it and put in the hours and do whatever I can to really make sure that something turns out great.

Madelyn (41:59)
I agree with you. think reliability isn't like the sexy thing to say, but doing what you say you're going to do is extremely simple and kind of rare. And I find that like, if you can just, but it builds trust, which I think is so key. And it builds respect, which I think is so key. I love that.

what if there is one project you could have on your resume that is like like you you that is enigmatic of you as a developer as you know that is enigmatic of your career what would it be?

Jess (42:31)
So I feel like this is an annoying answer, but a lot of the projects that I've worked on so far in my career have been projects that either my superiors have come up with, or I feel more of a secondary person. So there are projects right now that are currently in development that I'm hoping will get fully greenlit, ⁓ that are my true babies, that like...

Madelyn (42:48)
Mm.

that are your true baby. Yes, great.

Jess (43:01)
that have been like from my like, from my random thoughts or whatever. So there's some that are in paid development at the moment that I'm like really hoping are gonna make it. So that would be like my goal and where there's one that's like the one I was talking about that's in this like jungle world that I think would be like my true like pride if that gets to go.

Madelyn (43:11)
So exciting.

Mm-hmm.

Jess (43:28)
So hopefully within the next couple of months we'll find out. But that would be great.

Madelyn (43:33)
Listen, I feel

that I listen when it when it goes, I will circle back with you and we can talk more about it. And and I totally get it. That's so exciting. I'm crossing all my fingers for you. What are you what are you watching out there right now in the unscripted space that you really love and like really respect as a developer yourself?

Jess (43:53)
So I, of course, I'm like a love is blind person and watched this last season. And I mean, I honestly like, even though it's been how many seasons, 10 seasons now, I do respect that like the format has held up and they've continued to cast crazy, like interesting, like this, I feel like the storylines are honestly really.

Madelyn (43:57)
Mmm.

Jess (44:17)
juicy and they've continued to make a show that's very like impactful and that people talk about. So I think that that's one of the shows that like is culturally has stayed relevant. I don't know if you've watched it.

Madelyn (44:32)
I have the early seasons and I haven't as much lately, but you're right. Listen, the format speaks for itself. It's strong. you cast the right people, which is an art in and of itself, and then you let it play out. And like I said, it doesn't really need much more than that. It's really strong and the relatability is major. The question it's asking is so strong.

And so I agree with you. I think it's really strong. And it's one of those reality shows. It's one of those shows that will like when we look at the full, the timeline of like iconic shows that really changed the game. Love is Blind is absolutely a tent pole in that for sure. Is there any, let me think.

What? I wanna know what, go ahead.

Jess (45:15)
I mean, like...

I was gonna say on the opposite spectrum of that, like I just started watching the show Neighbors, and it's the new A24 show, have you seen it?

Madelyn (45:23)
GASP

No, no, I'm like waiting because it's what's so here's what's so funny Jessica is like only a 24 could do this because if any which which we I have to believe that oh we're just gonna catalog wild neighbor relationships has been pitched a million times right but only through this like very specific vision and like tone is a 24 able to to make it happen.

Jess (45:35)
you

Madelyn (45:53)
But I am excited to watch it and I've seen clips from it and I'm like, this is great. I love it. Do you love it?

Jess (45:58)
Yeah,

no, you're you're so right about like the tone of it. Like it's very kind of like weird, like almost like Nathan Fielder asked like awkward, like kind of like silly, but also like you're like, what's going on here? But yeah, it is like, it is a very specific tone that I appreciate because it's unlike other shows that that are really out there in that space. But yeah, I'm interested to hear what you think it's

Madelyn (46:07)
Yep.

Jess (46:25)
It's very like, it's like silly, but also not. Like it's very self-serious in some ways.

Madelyn (46:34)
love that and I think again, I think.

HBO, think of the Florida Man show that they have and like the way that they do unscripted, I think is really interesting. And they're not quite doing it like anyone else. And they're taking these chances. And, and it is really fun. Okay, that's now moving to the top of my list. Is there a is there a reality show that is like your just favorite show of all time? Like I know you said you grew up watching MTV. Is there

Is there one you can think of that you just, it's like total peak for you?

Jess (47:05)
Wow. I mean, Jersey Shore is like so iconic. I actually started rewatching some like old episodes of it. But I think also just like I heard like an interview of like Sally Ann Salsano like talking about how that show started and casting those people. But I think like it's just they really hit.

Madelyn (47:08)
Mm.

Jess (47:31)
with that cast. And it's such like a simple premise of just like taking these crazy like Jersey kids and putting them in a house for the summer and then following them and seeing what happens. Like it's such a simple idea, but it became this like whole phenomenon that like in college I was like Jersey Thursday, like watching every week. Yeah.

Madelyn (47:54)
GTL, come on. It's

so funny because I'm trying to remember how old I was, but I was like, I kind of had no business watching it, but it informed me greatly as a preteen and young teen growing up and seeing. And that world too, that sort of very hyper-specific East Coast Jersey type of person, the way they spoke, way they, culturally, it was its own little world.

and being like a young girl from the South, was just like so, I was so captivated by it. And yeah, Jersey Shore for sure is like just an absolute icon. A lot of the, as we revisit, like we're doing so much look back on the early 2000s right now, as I'm sure you know, but the clips that are resurfacing from that show and others around that time are making me also wanna rewatch it. So I might join you.

Jess (48:51)
Yes. Yeah, it's funny how like, I feel like the new like Gen Z like generation that didn't grow up watching it now they're like discovering all these shows that like we grew up with and there it's almost like having like a rebirth again.

Madelyn (49:06)
Yes, for better or for worse, right? I'm like, some of you guys stay away from A &TM. It will, it will get. I mean, I listen. I did and I grew like I grew up on A &T like religiously. mean, truly religiously watched it and I've seen the look I've seen Reality Check and I've also seen dirty the dirty rotten scandals episode of it. And it's it's a lot. It's like a loss taken because you're like

Jess (49:09)
Right.

my god, yeah. Did you see that doc?

Madelyn (49:33)
totally a victim of the time, like look at what else is happening, but not immune from criticism. And like, so how can all these things exist at one time? It's a lot to take in. But again, looking back being like, was I really watching this at the impressionable young age of 11? Like what? So it's kind of crazy. Okay, last question. I wanna know what...

Jess (49:53)
Totally.

Madelyn (49:59)
reality competition show you think you do really well on, whether it be culinary, from like Chopped to Amazing Race. I wanna know if there is a reality competition that you're like, yeah, I could do pretty good.

Jess (50:12)
That's so funny. I was actually talking about this to my coworkers recently, because we were saying how I would never do Survivor. I would be the worst person at any survival type of show. I have the worst sense of direction, so Amazing Grace would be terrible. But I feel like maybe some sort of cooking thing, because I do like cooking.

Madelyn (50:23)
Mmm.

And no go.

Jess (50:41)
And I don't have to be outside in like the key. So in the element. So maybe like a chopped type of thing. Yeah, I really think, I honestly like feel for any contestant on a show. Cause it's hard. Like it's not easy to do that. I don't think that there would be a good show for me that maybe wipe out.

Madelyn (50:44)
The elements.

Oh my God, stop.

So you'd never do like fear factor, I mean, would you do traitors?

Jess (51:12)
my god, no.

I would do Traders. No, think I would be the unassuming one where you're like, ⁓ she's definitely really nice and gonna be my friend. So I feel like that could maybe be my show.

Madelyn (51:13)
Are you a bad liar?

Yes.

Okay,

I love that. I love that. Well, it was so great to talk to you, catch up with you, get to know more about you. Thank you for sharing. And I will, we have so much to catch up on in a couple of months. I'll be checking in on your shows. I will rewatch Jersey Shore. We'll talk about it. And yeah, and hopefully I'll be able to bring you on when some of your ideas come to life on our screens. But thank you so much for hopping on and sharing with us.

Jess (51:52)
Yeah, thank you. This has been so much fun. I'm glad we got to catch up.

Madelyn (52:02)
Thank you so much for listening to that episode with Jessica. Hope you enjoyed. I had a couple of good takeaways of my own. ⁓ Don't forget, follow us on Instagram at Unscripted Files Pod, like, subscribe, rate, review, all the things. We'll see you Monday for our Unscripted Industry News episode with Emily Wilson, and we'll see you next week for another great interview. Thanks so much.