Yael Egnal (00:00)
how can you make a pitch feel more like a dialogue? And then now the person you're pitching to is a little more invested in the idea or feels like, they're putting their thumbprint on it and getting to be a part of the team,

Madelyn Cunningham (00:17)
Hey everybody, happy Friday and welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham and I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you stories from the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today, I have a really interesting one for you guys. A friend of mine who is also a development consultant. So networks, production companies bring her in to help them develop shows, create materials.

today we're diving kind of deep behind the scenes of what is involved in show development and then her advice for nailing a pitch, which is goes way beyond this industry. if you are in sales, if you're in creative, being able to engage with the people that you're presenting to is massive. And she has so just many good nuggets of information.

it's also just interesting to kind of get a behind the scenes look on how something goes from an idea all the way to getting in front of a buyer. So here is my interview with my friend and development consultant, Yael Egnal.

Madelyn (01:20)
welcome to the unscripted files.

I'm so happy to have you on because you're so

Brilliant, you've been in the industry almost a decade. You are so well known for really crafting compelling treatments, compelling pitches and honing in when it comes to development. You've been hired by teams to consult. Now you work at Fox, you used to be at AGC Studios. And so I just love to talk to you about your approach to development and your learnings because it's such a...

questionable world when you're first getting into it or even when you're in it to kind of know What's too much information? What's not enough information once I have an idea? What's my next step? How do I hone in on that and and really like craft something compelling and so talented when it comes to that but that

love to just hear a little bit more about how you got into this, where you, did you always want to do this? Did you find yourself in it? Just a little bit about how you first got started.

Yael Egnal (02:15)
So I went to film school. I went to Chapman University, which I loved. And I was in the television writing and production program there. And my whole time there, like even when I was applying to university and going, I just knew I wanted to do something in the film and TV world, but I didn't know what that actually looked like. I knew I didn't really want to be a director or an editor or cinematographer. Like I wasn't really drawn to the craft side of things.

So by the time I was graduating, I kind of had this gut feeling based on interning at large companies and small companies that I wanted to start at a small company and just like wear a ton of hats, get my leg, roll up my sleeves and like jump into projects and be super involved. obviously like in the getting ready for graduation applied for like a hundred jobs and I landed at

a production company called Expedition And for the first year I was there, I kind of moved my way up on like an associate producer track in their branded documentary department. And I was kind of just learning as I went. had taken a few documentary classes, but it wasn't really something I was initially drawn to in school. And then I kind of realized, okay,

I don't love producing, but I loved all of the like pre-production. I loved like interviewing people and kind of getting ready and learning the stories. And then as the company was growing, they decided to launch an unscripted development arm. And kind of the impetus of that was like, there were so many stories that our clients were passing on that were like, this is a documentary. Like, we see the story, we love this. So I kind of took that pivot maybe like after a year of being there to kind of help them start that team.

and move into the development side. And that was such an aha moment for me of like, okay, this is a good mix of what I like to do. It's a little bit more relaxed pace than production. It's like, I think of it as a very creative desk job because you kind of have normal hours and you get to do a lot of like research and it's a little bit almost more, I think of it as like, you get to compete against yourself because it's all about just like, how can you put your projects together? How can you package? How can you have the best materials like you were saying?

bring the best stories together. And I'm a very outgoing introvert. So to me, it's like the perfect balance of like, love pitching and I love packaging and all the kind of external facing stuff. But I also love making materials and decks and like putting my headphones on and like putting a TV show on the background and just like designing a deck. Like I love that part of the job. So for me, I found it's like a really nice balance of both what I like to do. And now I'm feeling like, okay, it's also something that I'm good at and have skills that I can.

build on and grow on.

Madelyn (04:55)
feel exactly the same way. I, I love getting in a pitch, getting excited, talking about it, but I also love, had a research background in college. And so the idea that like with each project, you're diving into a new world, you're immersing yourself in it. And then you get that creative, like you're building the deck here, you're packaging, you're bringing talent in, you're like figuring out what the format is. It's so cerebral and strategic.

And there is something so satisfying about that. So there's a lot of different approaches to development. Obviously, if you're working for a company, you are developing for them either for their mandates or what they're looking for, or if their bread and butter is culinary, you're doing culinary, if their bread and butter is competitions or, you know, Ocufol, whatever, you're kind of developing for them. But ultimately, bottom line, when you, when an idea strikes you,

What do you do? Are you like writing it in your phone? Are you immediately like, what is your immediate next step when an idea hits your brain? Like what, what are the next few steps after that for you to like get it down and really start to like create something.

Yael Egnal (06:07)
That's a good question. It definitely depends. I've actually found the most recent thing I've been doing is I open a new email and I do voice to text. Just because I find that I get really caught up when I start writing in overthinking, but sometimes it's just easier to talk it out. Sometimes when I look back at it, it makes no sense.

Madelyn (06:19)
That's so smart.

Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (06:35)
I find that a lot of the time where my ideas come from is especially because I have predominantly worked in a development team that will have different asks or mandates or areas of focus or people we want to develop for. So I will have just be noodling on whatever the topics are that we're thinking about or knowing, we have a brainstorm and they want everyone to come with ideas is a common format I found on the teams I've worked on.

So when something strikes me, I'll kind of like try to just jot something down. And then I also find a lot of inspiration from just like browsing and reading. Something I really love about the unscripted space is that ideas can really come from anywhere. And I know that's true with scripted, but I really think the best unscripted developers are like engaged in the world, engaged in the community, are interested in other areas, other art, politics, like whatever's going on.

I love like connecting with other people that work in unscripted, because I think again, folks that are successful in this side of the business really are like, have other interests and other stuff outside of work that they really love. So all that's to say, I feel like that's like the first piece. And then from there, it's usually like, if I know I'm going to be sharing it with my team, we'll just try to do like a really quick little paragraph. And sometimes there'll be like a visual with that. I'm a very visual person, so I sometimes find that can help a lot.

And if it's just like a little billboard or a little visual and like one paragraph, that can really help me just like pitch it up. And that's actually something I'll say I'm working on being better at. Because sometimes it's really hard to communicate an idea you have in your head and like get other people excited about it. So I say like, that's kind of like maybe the second step is like, okay, if I'm going to be sharing this in a meeting or sharing this with my bosses, how can I kind of like have a really quick little entry and have it be very easy for them to say like, okay, yes, go ahead and like.

Madelyn (08:15)
Totally.

Yael Egnal (08:30)
run with it and take it from there.

Madelyn (08:31)
100%. I like to think of it of like what you said, what's the billboard? Like what's the poster? Because that's going to have your visual. That's going to have your title and a little tagline. And ultimately that's what, that's all audiences are going to see on a streamer if they're going to choose to watch it. And it should be so easy.

to communicate your idea with just those elements. And I feel like right at first, if you can sort of hone in on that and that can make you excited and it can get your idea across, then you've got something strong that you can continue to like build depth and detail with. But if you can really get a solid, like initial impactful piece together that communicates what you're thinking, that's what excites me.

even if the poster, you know, even if the billboard never exists, it kind of gives me like energy to keep going because it's exciting. And I think that that translates to the people that you're sharing it with and pitching to as well.

Yael Egnal (09:22)
Yes.

Absolutely. And one really funny quick anecdote that I can share going back to my time in school, was so fire. When I think back on my film degree, one of the classes that was the most kind of surprisingly impactful was probably one of the easiest classes I took because it was a big class about how the TV business works. And every week you would like come up with ideas and everyone would like you'd come up with a title for a show and you would like partner with advertisers and kind of just try to emulate kind of how the industry works.

Madelyn (09:29)
Yeah.

Yael Egnal (09:57)
And I would get so mad because every week the teams that picked the dumbest titles would get the most votes and win the share of the audience, right? And my team was coming up with thoughtful things and things that were really earnest. And then now once I got it unscripted, I looked back at that. was like, that is now what I'm doing. I'm developing things based on the title first. You figure out what the idea is.

have a really good idea for a title that sparks something. it's just, think that kind of goes hand in hand with that billboard piece of like people are having to make decisions so quickly and you want loud and buzzy and clear. And it's so simple and so hard to do at the same time to do it right.

Madelyn (10:43)
It totally is. I love a title first. and then build backwards and we hear that a lot too, you know, from executives who are taking pitches constantly and things where they're like, if you can't tell me in a sentence or two.

then like, like you should be able to communicate so clearly. The voice note to email is actually so good. I do voice notes too, because you're it's extreme of consciousness. Cause when it hits you, like you said, if you, I like you get my inspiration from anywhere. Like I,

open up my mind to anything. And so if something hits me, I'm like, this might not make sense, but let me just spit this out in a voice memo and allow it to take shape later. But I think it's so important to ensure that it doesn't float away because that can happen too. And then what happens next? You see it on TV in two years and you're like, wait, my idea.

think also once you speak, I don't know, this could be woo woo, but once you write it down or speak it out loud, it gives it life and it starts to grow.

I'd love to know, so you've got the idea, you're getting the pitch together, the initial sort of, the log line is kind of what the term is in the industry. When you are building out a treatment or a deck, what are kind of some non-negotiables for you? Obviously every project is different, but what are some things that you always include that you feel like are so crucial to kind of getting the essence of the pitch across?

Yael Egnal (12:17)
Yeah, that's, think first and foremost, like we just mentioned the log line piece, like having that really clear and really tight. And as the kind of idea maybe grows and evolves, like not forgetting to go back and kind of make sure that's still a correct reflection of the project that you're building. And I will say too, I think right now I'm very much in format land. So I think that's probably where a lot of what I'm gonna be sharing probably is. I could definitely talk a little bit more.

Madelyn (12:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (12:46)
separately about I think like documentaries and docuseries. There's a lot of similar pieces, but I think there's some pretty core different ways that I would like put those together and tell those stories. But I think for the most part, yeah, just having a very clear concept of like how like you're visually and verbally communicating the idea and having that feel really cohesive throughout if that's like tone, if that's images.

And I think too, just being able to as succinctly as possible, like we were just talking about, be able to just say what the show is, what it looks like, and as much as possible, I'm looking like, how can I point holes where if I saw this, what questions would I have and how can I reverse engineer putting those answers in? So for example, let me see, like I, right now I'm working on a food format and I like, it kind of has a very unique set. And it's like, okay, the first thing I'm doing is like,

Madelyn (13:25)
Mm.

Yael Egnal (13:38)
drawing diagrams of what the set's gonna look like. So I can communicate, okay, in the first round they're here, in the second round they're there, and it's happening at the same time and showing that. And then, so when people are reading it, okay, cool, I'm gonna read this piece, that makes sense. What does the set look like? And then when you go to the next slide, that answers that question. So really just thinking about the logical flow. And I think a big thing I didn't realize when I first started is I think I thought this was a lot more formulaic, like a template. You can just use a little basic deck template.

and have the same information. And it's definitely not the case. Like think every project's really different. So to me, that's like a critical thinking piece of that just takes a little bit of like taking a step back, having that metacognition to say, okay, like I know what I'm trying to say. I know what my end goal is and like what are good ways to get there. And it's not gonna be the same for every project. And I think like that's, we're also getting to work with the team is really helpful.

Madelyn (14:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (14:35)
I love when I can like really trust my colleagues just to say, hey, this is like V1, what do you think? And they can ask questions and I can fix it. Like, I think that's been such a big part of like, seeing what other people do and where other people can maybe like have a question and instead of being like precious of like, no, you just don't get it. It's like, okay, that actually is a problem. And I'm going to figure out a way to address that creatively. So very long-winded way to say, I think there's like no one size fits all other than just having like a very clear sense of like,

Madelyn (14:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (15:04)
what the show is and how you're trying to communicate that.

Madelyn (15:09)
I look at some, some of my early decks and they were too long. They were too long. Like it's, it's so painful. And I remember one of them, I was like, I had a mood board for every location mood board. this mood board character mood board this, and like it was 20 something slides log.

Yael Egnal (15:12)
god. It's so-

Madelyn (15:29)
And I, and it was gorgeous, but it was way too much because you also have to, you're, communicating, but like when you're pitching either to a partner, to a production company or straight to a buyer, a network or streamer, they know they can visualize it. Like they can catch the vibe. Like, yes, give them what they need, but you don't need to spoon feed it and be, you know what I mean? And so I look at those early decks and I remember you're going to, I'm actually going to say this out loud and I'm.

I had a show early on that I was like, this is Netflix catnip. Like this is the best thing that's ever happened. And I had a designer mock up like a thumbnail of the show on like the Netflix home page. And I was like, this is gonna really get them. and I, I look back on that and I'm like, that is the biggest turnoff ever.

because it's just, it's so, there's like presumptuous. It's like, it's, there's like so much in it where you're like, this is going to really allow them to visualize this on their platform. And that's just not what they're looking for. Do you have any sort of like, when you look back at earlier work that you did, is there like a specific thing that you look at that just makes you cringe now?

Yael Egnal (16:42)
Yes. Well, I was actually going to say to that point, I think this is actually a really good piece of advice that I think about a lot in materials is a really successful kind of like sales piece. And I think this is like, whether it's like to send to a partner internally or a network is like actually leaving a little bit of room for imagination where people start to want to contribute and be like, what if you did this? Even if you have that idea, maybe in your back pocket, that can be a really constructive.

conversation you can have in a pitch. Like that's something I've also learned and this comes with like confidence and time of like, how can you make a pitch feel more like a dialogue? And then now the person you're pitching to is a little more invested in the idea or feels like, they're putting their thumbprint on it and getting to be a part of the team,

which is both how genuinely I like to work that way with good people, but also it kind of like, again, gives your project like a little bit of.

just feeling like, okay, this is like mine. I really want to champion this and I really want to be a part of it too. So all of us to say with your examples with the mood boards, I totally get that. And I think that's somewhere where I'm like, kind of want to give a lot, but you can leave a little bit of room for the imagination at the same time. No, I would say like, I think to answer your question, I think like when I look back at some of my early decks is just like a lot, a lot of text on each page and just super dense and certain projects do.

behoove that, especially once you get into like more of like a series Bible or you're like getting a little bit more in the weeds. But in terms of like, think, especially now what I'm doing in more of the format space, like really top line, really quick to read, like less is more. And again, that's not easy. It's not like, I only need a few three pages. It's like, okay, that actually can be like kind of hard to figure out exactly what you're putting on each page. I'm trying to think. I think that's probably the biggest one is just like blocks and blocks.

Madelyn (18:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (18:39)
text where I'm like,

Madelyn (18:40)
Yeah.

Yael Egnal (18:40)
go cross-eyed looking at it now.

Madelyn (18:42)
Exactly. So was there, so in that same vein, was there a hard, like a hard lesson early on that you had to learn?

Yael Egnal (18:50)
we were talking about this a little bit earlier too, letting rejection just roll off of you.

I have seen friends and peers in the industry just get like so broken down by rejection and so take it so personally. And I think that was a big lesson I learned early on. I think our generation and younger I think is good better about it is being able to see like, okay, I know if you know,

you put your best forward with your project and you were like open-minded and like taking feedback and doing everything you can. If a network, if it's not right for their three hours of programming, they're commissioning for the quarter, like it's just not gonna get made and that there's like nothing you could have done. And they're gonna pick up another season of a repeat show instead. And that's again, that's just the decisions that are being made.

So I think a big thing for me, this is like a personal philosophy and like my personal life and my work life is I really try to look at a Venn diagram of like what's in my control, what's not in my control and like just really focusing my energy on like what's in my control. And that's like better ideas, better materials, networking, like thinking about how I'm selling something, like all of that's in my control, but like what slots of network has are not in my control, but I can respond to that. So I think that just being able to,

see rejection, understand it, but like really can't take it personally in this business.

Madelyn (20:17)
I could not agree more. I would say the exact same thing. Rejection, it's part of it. There's no getting around it. my first couple of big ones,

I was just like, okay.

I've got to go ahead right now and come up with a process for how I'm going to deal with this. Because if I'm going to be successful and have longevity in this career, this is going to happen a hundred more times. It is because they're stepping stones to yeses, essentially. And so you're exactly right. It's just something along the lines of not taking it personally, taking constructively, and also knowing that this whole industry, as well as about relationships,

And so maybe that pitch was to someone you hadn't even created a relationship with, or you didn't have a rapport with. And so you're like, okay, they're not buying it. They're not taking it fine. But I have now created a line of communication with them. I know I showed up well in that pitch. I know my materials were compelling and smart. That's a win for me. And so I think you just, it's really tough, but I do think if you're going to have...

longevity and stamina because this industry also, takes so long to get projects off the ground. You have to go ahead and come up with kind of a process and a blueprint for dealing with those tough projections and things and like do what you need to do and then get right back to it the next day because you're exactly right. It's out of your control and you're gonna like, let's find the good in it and know that more are coming. You're never gonna avoid them.

Yael Egnal (21:53)
Yeah. And I think.

Madelyn (21:53)
Especially if you're doing

your job well, you know?

Yael Egnal (21:56)
100%. And I think how you said like stepping stones is like such a great way to look at it because I've definitely seen that where I know like what I'm contributing to a team and I hear in a room, even if they're passing, but the deck is amazing and the deck looks really good. And I know that was a big part of.

Madelyn (22:12)
the best thing you

can ever hear, like for me personally.

Yael Egnal (22:16)
And then I know I'm like, okay, that's setting us up for success on the next one. When they see a deck coming in from us, they're going to be excited to open it, going into it with a good mindset. And I think to another kind of on a similar note too, with like something I think that a lot of producers have been struggling with, with the consolidation of our industry, there's less and less executives to pitch to. And so you really have to be very thoughtful. And the last two teams I've worked on, I've been very thoughtful about, okay, this project's with this executive.

they're still thinking about it, we can't rush it with them, so their time is super precious and you have to be very thoughtful about how you're approaching even just asking for those meetings to have those pitches. And I think that when you've had that goodwill and that good rapport and you know it's a joy to get on a call and talk to you, it's gonna be like very visually fun to look at the materials, they'll be just more, I think people just go into those meetings a little more open-minded versus I've been even on like more of a studio side.

when there's producers who like send something and you open it and it's like one paragraph on a word doc. They've not put any thought into it. Didn't really love talking to them on the last meeting and it's like, like bottom of my priority list. Like I'm not interested because I know it's going to be a lot of work for me or my team. versus when I see something come in, let's like super thought out, super fun, super clear. It makes it a lot easier to be like, you know, no, this maybe isn't right for us, but keep coming or like,

Madelyn (23:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (23:44)
yes, and this is really interesting and we want to change this or do that and kind of build it out together. And again, as a, especially as like an individual producer or a smaller production company that's looking to partner, that's like a really good place to be in and you want to build off of that.

Madelyn (23:59)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that if, if, if someone's receiving your pitch, they've also

done this. So you have to be able to, just in your materials, communicate that you are passionate, you're dedicated, you've given this some thought, you've worked on it, because that is a signal of what your future collaboration together could look like. Like it signals so much more than just the show. I think it also is a reflection of you as a person, as a producer, as, you know, a developer, whatever.

And that it's just so important to ensure that things are tight. And also that they make sense for who you're pitching to. And that's another thing we see often is that, yeah, sure, the concept is the same, but who you're pitching to, what they're looking for, what demographic they're trying to speak to, it's all different. So ensuring that each

Yael Egnal (24:41)
Yes.

Madelyn (24:57)
verbal pitch and also each deck that you're doing like is speaking to them. And like you said, you're initiating a dialogue. It's not just a Ted talk. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yael Egnal (25:03)
Yes.

Absolutely. And some other

on a similar vein too, think some other advice that's like super easy to do is like both tailoring. think tailoring your, sorry, maybe this isn't easy. Tailoring the material to each place you're taking it to is really, really good kind of big picture thing. But even some specifics, like I saw this today actually with like a pitch from another producer where the date was on the materials And even if it's subconscious, I'm just like, this is old.

Madelyn (25:35)
you

Yael Egnal (25:39)
other people, you know, I'm like, other people have seen this versus like simply if you just didn't say 2023 on it, that doesn't even cross my mind.

Madelyn (25:48)
that's pretty bad. I don't date anything Okay, so.

you've secured the pitch, right? You've sent it out and they want to hear about it. do you have any specific way or are things that you always do in pitches that you feel like have been successful, whether your concept has been bought or not?

What are some like big dos and don'ts for you when you're actively pitching?

Yael Egnal (26:08)
Yeah, I know we also touched on this a little bit. I think the biggest thing, and this is kind of intangible and it's gonna be different for every person, is like as much as possible, make it feel like a conversation. And this is where I think that like, I know it's so cliche and cringey, but the storytelling piece is really at the heart of what we do and being able to really effectively share it like a story, kind of find a good way. What's the little intro hook? How are we gonna carry it through?

I think that's just a really good big picture way to think about if you were calling your best friend to tell them about what you're doing at work and explaining the project you're working on, that's a better tone than having it feel like a TED Talk, exactly like how you said.

Madelyn (26:50)
I love that.

Yeah, how are you talking to your best friend about it? That's great. Yeah.

Yael Egnal (26:54)
Yeah, and I think some big don'ts. Number one thing is do not just read all the bullet points on your slide if you're sharing your screen. So sometimes even we'll make a deck that's different for the pitch versus what we send.

Madelyn (27:10)
Mm.

Yael Egnal (27:10)
either before or after if we do like a follow up or a leave behind deck. And when I've done that in the past, I'll still do the full deck first, cause you want to have the idea and everything together. And then when we're getting ready for the pitch, I'll like strip back some of the.

or maybe it's just images. Again, depends on the project. But all that's to say, do not just read verbatim. Again, think of it as a conversation. And then the other kind of pet peeve, I've had it kind of on both sides, like when I've been pitched things and also when I'm pitching something, as much as possible really factor in time for questions or a conversation at the end. So I've had pitches where wall to wall, it's like everyone's talking the whole time. And then there's

Madelyn (27:26)
Mm.

Yael Egnal (27:53)
30 seconds left and the person you're pitching is like, I'm so sorry, I have a meeting that's starting in a minute. And you don't actually, you just miss out on like such valuable, just gut feedback, questions, poking holes, or like good reactions to emphasize all of that stuff just kind of gets left on the cutting room floor versus if you leave that time in, it's really helpful. So I always kind of go into it, assuming you're gonna have to do the whole pitch and walk them through everything the best.

Madelyn (27:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Egnal (28:23)
Chef's kiss is when you get into a meeting and the exec's like, I read the deck, I saw the tape, I want to ask questions and I want to talk about it, but you have no control. You have no control over that happening. So you kind of have to be prepared for that and be also prepared that they're like, Hey, I'm swamped. I've had no time. Just tell me what you're working on and I'll let you know what I think. So there's so many like kind of be like a Nathan Fielder. Think about all the possible outcomes. Just be prepared.

Madelyn (28:29)
Yes.

Yael Egnal (28:49)
but don't have it be like you're reading off of things or feel too rehearsed at the same time.

Madelyn (28:54)
You're absolutely right. You never know what you're going to get in terms of how they, if, or how they've observed your material. Like have they read it and they love it? Have they read it in their if, and they need to be convinced? Have they not had time? And a lot of the times they haven't had time to look at it at all, which I, I'm not going to lie. Yes, of course we love getting into a meeting and they're, they're like one step in already.

But there is something about having their first impression of your material be accompanied by your voice and your passion that can carry, you know, from slide to slide, but you do, you have to be able to sort of be ready for whatever.

Like I always love to tell the context of the inspiration, you know, or another question that I love to open up with if it's appropriate is, well, tell me what you loved about it. Tell me why this resonated with you. think this is true in any sort of industry where you're, pitching and you're trying to get an idea across is it is.

with someone, not at someone, and allowing them to be able to ask questions and have their thoughts. And the biggest win to me, and you kind of touched on this earlier, is when they start having ideas of their own

And again, immediately you have investment, immediately you have interest.

how we talked about earlier, how like the hardest lesson you have to learn is rejection because it is going to happen 99 % of the time. There's this element of in our industry, even when you do get rejection, there's like the whole art of the followup

So when it comes to sort of the followup after the rejection or after feedback, I think a lot of people are worried about being bothersome and, kind of like, they've said no, so I'm just going to leave it alone, What is your approach when it comes to.

nurturing relationships, following up and responding to feedback in that way.

Yael Egnal (30:49)
That's a great, that's a really great question. And I think it's a really delicate balance of doing that appropriately. And I think there's a few factors that come into play, right? So your relationship with the person you're following up with, if it's, if you have a more friendly, casual relationship, it can be a little bit more casual. If it's someone that's, you know, maybe a little bit more of a, just a professional relationship, but you don't have maybe a level of candor, just being really thoughtful about using the time and making sure it's constructive.

Cause I think at first, especially when I was starting out, I'd be like, they said no, they don't want it. And that's not always the case. And I've, I've worked with people too that, you know, can just also the other end of that spectrum is like, gloving onto every single word and like not actually listening to what is being said. So I think that it's in the middle of like.

Madelyn (31:22)
Yeah, I'm done.

Yael Egnal (31:41)
I always try to take really, really thorough notes when I'm getting feedback and then also taking a step back to try to really understand where they're coming from and not being shy to ask follow-up questions instead of just making assumptions. So I'd say I think having good follow-through is really key and also just being intentional and thoughtful, respectful of their time. So if I was in a pitch and they said, hey, this is really interesting, it is a space we're in, but like,

these are kind of the changes we need to see. I would go back with my team and we'd like talk about how we're gonna redo the deck, redo the deck and just like as quickly as possible, just kind of try to strike and get back to them with those changes if we feel like it's a, if it actually does work.

So I think that is the biggest thing. And like we were talking about with the stepping stones, I just like love that analogy. It's like, how can you kind of use the conversation where it's not a waste of anyone's time, even if the idea wasn't right for the person you're pitching to.

Madelyn (32:36)
It is like, what can I take from this? If they don't want culinary, how can I follow up with this person and see what they do need? And it is, it is an art cause there is, yeah, there is bothersome followup, especially when someone feels like, you're not really listening.

and there's also an art, this is a whole other conversation we can get into about sending people pitches that don't work for them. they're not in that space. It's not in their mandates. It's not on their programming. so you also have to be careful about just firing out things that aren't relevant to them to waste their time.

because then they're anything else you send them, it's a of a cried wolf situation where they're like, they don't seem to get it. They don't seem to get what we're looking for. And so I find that restraint is also kind of a key element that you have to have as well that I had to learn.

Yael Egnal (33:17)
Yes.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think one thing I will say on that, that again, this is also very much like has to kind of be the right situation You can acknowledge that in the email to be like, hey, I know this isn't, I know you normally don't do food, but Maybe it's something that's like super fun, but.

upfront, recognizing, okay, this is kind of a curve ball, but just take a look for fun. And it takes a lot of the pressure off and they're probably still gonna say this isn't right for us, but it allows you to like, again, have some conversation, maybe show off a really fun idea. And I've had that actually where I've pitched like, especially like I'd mentioned earlier with the consolidation, you know, there's a lot of like umbrellas, like different teams that are commissioning kind of under parent companies.

So I've had that where I've gone into a pitch and like totally just pitched an idea I'm super excited about and the execs like, this doesn't work for us, but direct line to my sister network that would do something like this. And that's like a huge win. Cause then it's like, maybe it's an exec you've never pitched before, but all of a sudden their coworkers introducing you instead of it being a cold outreach or through another kind of roundabout way. there's always like, again, really, I think restraint is such a good way to say it.

But there are exceptions of like, if they're, just acknowledging that upfront, because again, it shows that you know what they're looking for and are just bringing them something, you know, kind of with a little less pressure and just to like see if there's any space or if they can help at all.

Madelyn (34:56)
right.

Totally, it's so interesting what you.

how your gut learns to kind of intuitively handle each and every situation and follow up and pitching. But at the end of the day, also comes down to when you're pitching someone, it's the concept absolutely. It's your dedication to it. It's your knowledge of it. But it's also, do I want to work with this person? This stuff takes years. Do I want to work with this person to develop for years? And do I think...

Do I think that we could work well together? So really just a soft sort of like, it's not a technical skill. comes down to is do you feel like a person that I want to work with? And I think that ensuring again, when you know your material well enough, then you can focus on being personable. can focus on being warm and, and that just comes with a little bit of a little bit of practice.

if you could sort of point to sort of one trait or habit or practice that you have that you feel like has kind of led you to where you are, what would it be?

Yael Egnal (35:58)
That's a very, that's tough. I think like the people skills and being a team player, just especially for me in terms of like just.

finding success within development teams. And I haven't worked like as much as you have where like you're a little bit, have done a more stuff independently. I've really kind of like tried to find teams where I click and fit in and figure out like where I can be really additive and constructive. if someone else has an idea, like my boss will sometimes send me, hey, here's a talent, here's an idea.

what's the show, can you just figure it out? sometimes it's like, hey, here's the complete idea. We just need a deck designed. And I'm like, cool, I can do that. No problem. And something I think a lot about, and this might just be kind of good, broad advice, is I really look at the industry as like,

one giant team sport or one giant group project. And I remember in film school, I had some friends who would like in class, be like, I hate group projects. And I'm like, I think you maybe need to do something else. Because there's no world where you can do any of this alone. But even the biggest

Madelyn (36:58)
Ha

Yael Egnal (37:05)
most successful folks have teams that are working for them. to me, I think it's that like being good to work with, being a good team, having that follow through, being really thoughtful and additive and contributing and kind of also being aware of some, again, soft skill, like some of the social dynamics and like when it's appropriate to chime in and talk up and when's maybe kind of just kind of take a seat back

I'll say something that especially in this past year, I got laid off for the first time this year. And I think it was such an aha moment of being able to recognize.

what hard skills that I have that are marketable and tangible and could allow me to kind of move into more of a consulting capacity and being working more freelance, which I never felt like I had before. But I also had this imposter syndrome that's so common. Again, I know, especially with women, but I think in any industry, it's like such a big kind of natural human instinct. And I think the more and more I realized, especially in unscripted, it's like,

what you contribute and what you do, like is your worth on a team or as an individual producer, as an executive. And the more and more you can be additive, contribute positively, bring ideas to the table and do all of that without feeling like, ooh, I'm like too junior to do this or I'm too, I have other stuff that needs to get done first. That is the piece that I think to me is where I found.

a lot of growth and success and also like respect from older peers or other colleagues I'm working with.

don't be shy, like find that right balance. as you're kind of figuring out what, what it looks like for you.

Madelyn (38:45)
And I think there's so many different ways you can go about it, but getting out of your own way, leaning into your intuition, your confidence, I think is so key. Okay. The last thing I'll ask you is something more fun.

Are you watching anything right now that you absolutely love and that you feel like it's done really well? Tell me what we should be watching right now.

Yael Egnal (39:03)
I have my two favorite kind of unscripted shows right now are, I mean, this is a longer term one, but Claim to Fame is like me.

Madelyn (39:11)
Yes, wait, I

just started watching it.

Yael Egnal (39:14)
To me, the perfect balance of the mystery social experiment, the celebrity adjacent, and I think they just do such a brilliant job of producing the show. I'm pretty picky with unscripted because it feels like work. So if I'll watch an episode of something and if it doesn't hook me, I'll be like, cool, I get the format. That's when I'm like, I have to watch the next episode. I have to see what happens. And that to me is like the high praise.

Madelyn (39:40)
I felt the same way.

It was so brilliantly formatted. and the, and there's audience play along.

And that's what I didn't know there would be is that we also don't know who's related to who. I agree with you. I just watched season three all in like a day and I enjoyed it and thought it was so smart and well done. And what else? Tell me the other.

Yael Egnal (39:48)
Yes.

I loved it.

And then the other one that I was really excited about was Secret Lives and Mormon Wives, because that's also, it's also an example of like, I don't always gravitate towards docu-soap. Like it's not always something, like I'll kind of keep up with it from a pop culture standpoint, but it's not always something I like sit and binge through a whole season, because I definitely much, I much prefer like formats or like limited docs when it comes to what I'm watching for fun.

But that one I did have some friends that had mentioned when they were working on it, like, okay, this is going to be really good. And the marketing came out and they actually like invested in the marketing for the show, but also had influencers that were self marketing it. And then the production just from the pilot into the second episode, I thought they just like had this again, just this crazy ride. And then I love that there's a social element of

when I go on TikTok, I'm seeing what they're all doing now and I just feel like the show is still going. But the show, something that's really hard, I think, with when you do shows about influencers is I always think about this, especially kind of being like cusper, like young millennial is like, if I could go and watch this content on TikTok or YouTube for free, like why should it be a TV show? That's always like a bar that I try to think of when I develop with like digital talent or kind of like anything that touches in that space.

And I thought they just did such a good job of like actually delivering a like high level docu. So that was like super fun, but just felt way more in depth than what you get on TikTok. And then when I go on TikTok, it's like kind of silly. They're like alluding to and referencing the show. The last thing I'll say something I just thought, again, being a like working in the industry and like loving reality TV is the meta. Like they just reference the Kardashians all the time, which I just think to me was like.

post-modern art. Like, it's just so insane. And I just really love that. So, and then the last, last thing I'll say, because this is also just a good rec. I loved it. This summer, I read Emily Nossbaum's book, Cue the Sun, about the history of reality TV, and would highly, highly recommend. I devoured it. Brilliantly written. I love she, to me, I really look up to how she both

Madelyn (41:49)
Self-referential, yes.

Yael Egnal (42:14)
loves the genre and makes fun of how unserious it is in the same breath. And I think that is a approach I take to my work of like, this is really silly, but I also love what I do. I'm not saving anyone's lives, but if I'm bringing joy to someone, bringing families together to watch a game show on a weekend night, like that's really special. I think.

Madelyn (42:37)
Look what

I'm listening to on audible right now. No, literally. I just watched claim to fame. I just benched Mormon wives and I'm listening to the book you're recommending. We are like this.

Yael Egnal (42:46)
We're on the same media diet.

Madelyn (42:49)
so, well, this was just such, I just love talking to you. I can talk to you forever. And thank you for all of your like.

well-earned insights and advice about when it comes to pitching, when it comes to getting development together. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I appreciate it.

Yael Egnal (43:07)
No, thank you. I'm so, love getting to talk about what I do and talk to other people that do the same thing and finding that connection and those similarities. So no, it means a lot that I got to share. really appreciate it.

Madelyn (43:19)
Thank you!

Madelyn Cunningham (43:25)
I love smart women. I love talented women. I love women who are so good at what they do. sometimes it's hard to recognize the the growth that you've had, And so even getting to reminisce on early, early on decks that I was developing or questions that I had, I don't know. It's just sometimes we have to take a moment to go, oof.

I used to have questions about this. I used to have no idea how to do it, and now I can do it in my sleep. That matters. That growth and that movement forward matters, even if you are sometimes feeling like you're standing still. I hope you guys have a great weekend. I am still watching Traders. I am watching The Bachelor. Love is Blind.

which just came out last week, which is getting really interesting. I feel like I'm trying to figure out what my whole shtick would be on Love is Blind. cause I feel like, I feel like people, like your personality does not develop without the influence of how you look.

Like look at comedians, right? There's a lot of comedians who absolutely tailor their comedy to their physical appearance or the physical manifestation of themselves, right? I'm sorry, it's true. So trying to figure out like,

If they can't see my red hair, then like what, like, like who cares? I give up, right? That's, that's like the whole bag is being a freckle faced strawberry. A book that has been banned. We won't talk anymore about that. And this is why I could never be on Love is Blind. Cause all I do is yap. I have some really interesting guests coming up that I'm super excited for you guys to listen to.

Thanks so much. We'll see you next week on the Inscripted Files.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:08)
The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.