Emily Knight (00:00) like for me, the secret sauce is something cheeky and that's a very British term, but like cheeky, mischievous, a little bit naughty and you know, that's why I love dating shows like too hot to handle. It's just that one little cheeky element that's like, this is the show, but we're gonna take that one bit that you love away, which is hooking up. Touching each other, exactly. Madelyn (00:13) love. touching each other. Bradley Carpenter (00:31) everybody and happy Friday. This is The Unscripted Files. I am Madeline Cunningham, a development producer in the industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of pop culture entertainment. Really excited for today's episode. We have a development maverick on the podcast who's responsible for iconic long running formats like MTV's Ex on the beach and many, many more. She's cheeky, she's naughty, and she's really, really fun. So. Without further ado, here's my conversation with development executive, Emily Knight. Madelyn (01:06) Emily, welcome to The Unscripted Files. How you doing? Emily Knight (01:09) I'm very well, thanks Madelyn, thanks for having me. Madelyn (01:12) I'm so excited to have you. You are a format master, honestly. You have developed so many iconic formats. You and I clicked really, really quickly when we met. I love formats. I think the way that you think through formats is super clever and you're so intuitive with it and you really think about it from Emily Knight (01:29) Definitely. Madelyn (01:39) a really academic point of view, which I think is so interesting and one of the reasons that you're so successful. So super excited to chat with you, but tell me what you've just been up to lately. Tell me kind of what you're excited about, and then we'll dive into all things Ex on the beach and the other formats that you've developed. Emily Knight (01:55) Sure, sure. So I think the first thing to say is that I think that it's really exciting time in development with formats because I feel finally like there's a real turn coming back into format buying. And there's been so many great formats that have come out recently that are feeling much more signposted as formats. So we've been, you know, developing really leaning into that and developing things that have that kind of formatted heart at them, but also just kind of have that kind of obvious freshness and, you know, zeitgeist appeal and that kind of twist on things that are familiar. But I think I'm definitely feeling like a sense that the format is back because for a while it felt like was a little bit of a dirty word. wasn't very... cool. But now I definitely feel like we're coming back into it. And I think, know, honestly, a lot of that is, yeah, thank you Traitors. Exactly. Thank you, Deal or No Deal Island. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just leaning right into it and I'm going for it in the format space. Madelyn (02:45) Yes, yes, thank you traitors. Exactly. I know, I feel that too. That's my favorite thing to do. I think it's, I'm excited for it to be back. It's so funny how content ebbs and flows. It's you go from super formatted and then it's like, well, we want really organic and then you dive into that. then it's, so I think it's time for everything, the social experiment, the dating to come back into play. And dating is a... space that you're super familiar with. So you came up with Ex on the Beach, which you know, the title just killed me right now. It's so, so good. Did the title come first or did the idea come first for you? Emily Knight (03:25) Yeah. No, so it was an idea that was, it was actually in existence in the company that I was working in and it was called Second Chance Summer. And it was a daytime dating format for older couples who had, I think they were divorced and they were kind of coming back together and seeing if they would, know, re-spark, like if they should reconnect. Madelyn (03:42) Mm. Mmm. Emily Knight (03:58) And then I was working with a very talented person called Stephen D. Wright, who I had worked with previously. And we kind of re sort of dusted it off and reinvented it along with Caroline Roseman, who was the producer that kind of initially had the idea. And we, yeah, we put it together and then the title, I think was the thing that got it. And I think honestly, like in terms of formatting and in terms of ideating and creation of any show. number one, most important thing, title, title, title. Like it just, it's absolutely key. And I think, know, we were really lucky with Ex on the Beach in terms of like, it's just, not only does it say what the show is, it's funny, it's mischievous, it kind of says it's really cheeky and it kind of gives a little sense, it's quite sexy, but it's also like, it's very playful. So it's kind of like that glorious like, Madelyn (04:32) Yeah, absolutely. Emily Knight (04:53) You know, it's a bit of a no-brainer title. And I think honestly, like when we gave it that title, it became a bit of a slam dunk. And it was, you know, was one of those things as well that was right place, right time, which is a very annoying thing to say because you can never actually construct that, but it really was with it. Madelyn (05:13) Right. Yeah. No shade to Second Chance Summer, but it is so wild what a new title can, it can give life to something that it never had before. Emily Knight (05:16) Mm. Madelyn (05:24) And I think it's so smart. It's just the right amount of devious. I was wondering, I was like, was this a personal experience you had that made you like come up with this show, but you're saying it was an existing format and it was just like falling flat and you really had to like give it some new life, which is a normal thing that we do. Emily Knight (05:39) Yes, yes. Well, it also happened to coincide with a very bad date that I had personally been on where an ex came to sit at the table next to me whilst I was on this date. And so the kind of format point of exes coming in to the date as it had happened came from that personal experience. And when they kind of arrived from the water and like, whose ex is next and all of those pieces that came in and that like drip feed of the sort of slow burn of the format as it evolved through the show. Yeah, that one terrible and awful shockingly bad experience was able to live on through the format, pointing to the beach. Isn't that nice? Madelyn (06:30) I love that. I mean, we have to take things from our real lives, right? So those bad experiences at what we do, like we're in the car on the way home and we're like, how can I make that something? So we have to always, you know what I mean? That's just how our minds work. I mean, so what has been, you know, for Ex on the Beach specifically, it's also gotten spun off into a lot of different territories, but tell me what have been sort of some of your proudest moments from the show over the years. Emily Knight (06:35) Yup. Yes. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think to be honest, it's more being able to say that you have been involved with something that's so successful and having that hit under your belt is just so good because we work in an industry where everything is credit focused and I think when you have, you you have to be able to have that sort of mark of success. And so sort of showing that you understand the building blocks that what goes into a big show like that has certainly sort of formed the path of my career after that. And so being able to look back and say, okay, well, when we were devising X on the Beach, this is what we did. when we, you know, one of the things that I think helped sell the show in the first instance was we put an existing talent from one of the MTV shows. Geordie Shore, which is the UK version of Jersey Shore, we put Vicky Pattinson into the show in the first season, alongside all of the normal people. And so I think that was, at the time, a pretty kind of groundbreaking thing. And like, you didn't see that kind of blend of celebrity and regular people. And so being able to say, you know, I remember when we first did that, it was like quite a groundbreaking thing. So I think. It's the mark of success that something like that brings that certainly I kind of look back to now and honestly, still trying to get something quite as big ever since. it's great and it really does pave the way and it shows that you've got the chops and you've got the ideas and that you understand, as I said, that you understand the building blocks of a really big show. Madelyn (08:36) Yeah, absolutely. And when you talk about those building blocks, mean, you you've developed dating shows, survival, you know, all kinds of different formats. What do they all have in common? Like when you develop, what is that secret sauce that makes what you do different? Emily Knight (08:44) Hmm. Yeah. So I think that there are two really special elements that go into certainly dating formats, but generally kind of all big entertainment shows. And that is like things that answer a question and have that like real breadth of universality about them. So like if we think about dating shows specifically, the things that answer a question like, are you the one? Are you the one that got away? know, things that you go, or like the ultimatum is love blind, you know? And I think things that make you go like, I wanna know the answer to that question. And those aren't like, I'm not talking about the social experiment questions of like, if we put a bunch of people in this room, what would happen? Like, I mean, questions that we ask ourselves. And that really specifically when it comes to dating, like that's such a good place to start. Madelyn (09:22) is love blind. Right. Mm. Emily Knight (09:46) And then I think like situations that you find yourself in, like first dates, know, like things that are, you know, that have that level of that kind of element of universality about them are really good. And then like for me, the secret sauce is something cheeky and that's a very British term, but like cheeky, mischievous, a little bit naughty that like, and you know, that's why I love dating shows like too hot to handle. It's just that one little cheeky element that's like, this is the show, but we're gonna take that one bit that you love away, which is hooking up. Touching each other, exactly. So yeah, so I think like the question and it coming from a really genuine place and it being something that is genuinely tangible that people wanna know the answer to. Madelyn (10:14) love. touching each other. Emily Knight (10:39) is a really great place to start. And then, you know, the breadth of having it as that kind of universal question. And, you know, that's why something like X on the Beach works is because it's so universal because we all have exes. And an ex can be something from a one night stand to a seven year marriage. you know, the universality element is a really important one. But, you know, I think anything that just makes you go, that's really clever, because it's just so. is so cheeky and I love things that are just that little element of mischief that you come in with those naughty fairies and they've gone, hee, this is what we're gonna do to make this really cheeky. Madelyn (11:14) Yes. Yes. Anything that makes you go, oh, what would I do in that situation is the key. It's like you want a conversation starter. That's the buzzword right now is like start a conversation. And I think Emily Knight (11:20) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Madelyn (11:32) weirdly enough, I think we're all coming back to kind of collective viewing now. It used, you know, like, and everyone's watching something at the same time and talking about it because it's our way of, you know, coming back together. And, and so, yeah, kind of talking to someone else, like, what would you do in this situation? What would I do? Emily Knight (11:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Madelyn (11:48) I think that relatability with some mischief and sass is like, I love that that's your perfect sort of recipe. And obviously it's proven to be super, super successful. I mean, you've developed across different genres. Dating is obviously a fun one. But when you look at, you know, early in your career, did you sort of... Emily Knight (11:56) Yeah. Madelyn (12:09) know that you didn't want to get boxed into one genre, that you really wanted to be able to just like whatever you were interested in, whatever came to you, you wanted to go for it. And how did you sort of pave the way to ensure that you could, you know, develop across sort of any subject matter? Emily Knight (12:25) Well, strangely, I think it came from the UK industry being much smaller. you have like, there's sort of five main networks and you have to have a lot more breadth to be able to, like we don't really have the kind of slightly more, lineated, ways of development as, as the U S does. And so. And I certainly think back then, because I am so old now. It's actually my, it's my 40th birthday next week and I'm freaking out about it. But yeah, I know, I know it's awful. It's brilliant but awful. But I think, you know, certainly back then it was much more, you know, you kind of have to be a little bit of a jack of all trades. And I like, one of the things that I really pride my develop, my development on is, is genre blending. So. Madelyn (12:56) Congratulations! I love that! Emily Knight (13:17) I sometimes look at a show and I'll go like, what if this, like, what if we sprinkle a little bit of science into this? Or how would we do this show in a survival situation? Or what would the kind of, you know, what would the natural history version of this be? Like if you take an entertainment show and then you put a slightly more cerebral approach to it, you suddenly have a Nat Geo show. So I think I've very consciously tried to make sure that I've kind of covered all sorts of different ways because it's also sometimes a really cool way to pitch a documentary is if you come at it with a little bit more of an entertainment head on it. So I'm really passionate about that in development and I really encourage people to think very broadly and look at different genres, you know, and I think there's a danger sometimes that we can be quite, snobbish about reality or dating. And actually these are some of the biggest, most successful franchises in the industry. And you know, if you can look at them for inspiration for other genres, then you might just get yourself a really big hit. Madelyn (14:28) I agree. think that more and more, especially in the unscripted world, kind of rules are being broken. We're bringing in scripted elements. You know, I just think there's a lot of really fun genre bending and blending that's happening right now that I'm noticing that's, I'm really interested to kind of see where it goes. So along with Ex on the Beach, you also developed a show called Escape. Emily Knight (14:43) Yeah. Yep. Mm. Yes. Madelyn (14:54) So talk to me about that. This idea is really fascinating to me. I wanna know what event sort of like sparked this idea for you. Emily Knight (14:57) Yes. Okay, so escape is a survival engineering hybrid where a group of people are stranded in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the scraps of a crashed vehicle around them to build something and escape in. So this is a of a survival show on its head because it's not about surviving, it's about escaping. So the tagline of the show was don't survive, escape. And one of my very old favorite movies is called Flight of the Phoenix and the plot is a Richard Adhamber film and the plot is that the plane crashes and then they build a new plane out of the old plane. And so there was also a story about a man who he was a mechanic and he had crashed his little Citroen car in the desert and then he broke the car apart and he built a motorbike out of the parts of the car and he escaped it. So the idea was kind of like a little blend of all of it. The channel had approached us and said that they were looking for a new survival show. wanted something that was a bit, you know, that didn't feel, it was survival, but what's the next turn of the wheel on survival? And often with, you know, when I approach a sort of mandate like that, my first thing to think is like, what's it upside down? So what's survival upside down? It's getting out. Like, I don't want to stay on an island, like with bugs and no electricity. I want to get the hell out. So that kind of was part of, all part of the genesis of the thinking. And then it was like, okay, well, why would you be in that situation ever, you know? Madelyn (16:28) Right? No. Emily Knight (16:40) it would be, you you're thinking lost, right? So the big plane and like, what, you know, and the sort of question of like, what would you do in that situation? And like, what is the best example of like human ingenuity and seeing these people when you're faced with, you know, this unbelievable, terrifying situation and you have your face with your own survival, how the human mind can apply itself and actually build something to. to escape in. yeah, and it was kind of like, and it's like, I know a lot of people do this, but like I always think in billboards and the billboard for escape was just epic. It was just like escape and it had the crash plane and it "Don't survive, escape." And now I think the new version of the billboard is what's the tile because that's how we sell these days is the tile on there. Madelyn (17:12) I love that. Yep, exactly, exactly. No, It's so interesting because the whole, the narrative trope in books, in movies of a crashed boat, a crashed plane, like that is so common. And so you literally just took that very solid foundation in stories that we know over and over and over again and applied it to a survivalist show. It's really, really smart. And I love what you said about always, I do the same thing thinking of the billboard because Emily Knight (17:42) Yeah, that's it. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, the tile. Yeah, yeah. Madelyn (18:01) or the tile now on, or the poster, you know, on the streamer. But, you know, it's like, what is that great title and what's the log line? I love that you, when we see most survivalist shows, it's like, your goal is to stay there and make, and be able to like have the means and, you know, deserted Island sort of trope. And I love that you flipped it on its head. And I, and I see that that's a trend in sort of a lot of what you do is like bringing in ideas and going, well, this is what we normally see. How can we, Emily Knight (18:09) Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Madelyn (18:30) change up the end goal, you know, to really bring something fresh. I really think that's so interesting. Is there a format idea that you loved that just didn't work out as so many do that you could talk about? I mean, a million, right? Emily Knight (18:43) my God. A million, like literally a million. I'll tell you one that I really, really loved that didn't get away was one called Time Warped and it was about the human body clock. And if you took away all like knowledge of time, like could you work out what time it was? Madelyn (19:04) Mm. Emily Knight (19:08) And it didn't happen and it was like so cool and we did it it was like we were gonna be in this cool bunker and you were gonna have to guess like when it had been three days and like leave and there was gonna be a cash prize and all of that and it just never happened and there was like a version of it that happened that was like a like much more of like a sciencey thing but it just yeah and it kind of went round and round and round and I think like learning from it there are you know, if I kind of look at all of this sort of, if I try and trace back the common threads of failed formats, I think it is overcomplication. And I think ultimately, like what makes a great format and what makes a great format fail is when you overcomplicate and to sell something, you have to keep it simple. And I think like, Madelyn (19:47) Mm. Emily Knight (20:01) Sometimes it's very easy to just get like, okay, and another thing and another thing and then we could twist it and then we could do this and then we could buy episode six, we can add this in and then there's gonna be fireworks. And it's like, it just, it gets too far. And it's like, you're selling, that's our job, we sell. But ultimately like actually having confidence in your initial concept and selling and like knowing what a good concept is enough to back. the simplicity of it, you know, of course there's gonna be layers to the format, but that comes like after you've got to a certain point with the development stages. But yeah, that one still sticks with me. But God, so many, so many, so many lost soldiers. Yeah, yeah. Madelyn (20:42) Yeah, on the cutting room floor. There's a book, so there's a book called I Who Have Never Known Men, and it is about 39 women in a bunker with no sense of time. And it's so interesting the way that they're kept all lights, everything down. But I read it and I was sitting there going like, I would like... Emily Knight (20:58) No! Madelyn (21:08) count my heartbeat and then I look at like, was thinking through like how I would figure out how much time has passed. And I love that idea because we all have bodies, we all have circadian rhythms and they're different. I take naps all the time. So I couldn't just use my sense of like being tired to like, be like, it's nighttime because I like three o'clock naps. So. Emily Knight (21:12) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. Yep. No. I used to be you, Madelyn, and then I had two children. And now my nap schedule is like, I had a nap recently, and it was the first in months, no, years. I was like, oh, this is wonderful. But the other, I know, that was it. Madelyn (21:34) Haha But that's what would make the show so interesting is we all have different routines. Our body clocks are, you'd have someone who works shift work. Like, that's, I don't know. That's cool. Emily Knight (21:53) That's it! Yeah, I know. It really is. you have, also you do like you bring in someone like a pilot who switches time zones regularly. So, know, yeah. But yeah, that sort of sticks with me as one that got away. But the other thing I think in terms of like just talking about format failure, I think a common mistake, not mistake, but a common thing that people forget about is like it's really easy to just. Madelyn (22:04) Yes. Emily Knight (22:24) focus on the mechanics of a format. Like the format beats the format pillars and not necessarily think about the human element, like the narrative drivers. Like what's the psychological drama that's happening? Like where are the alliances coming from? Where are the push and pulls narratively happening? Like oftentimes we just think about the format levers and we don't think about the narrative levers quite so much. And so I think like sometimes that's what makes formats fall down is you go, okay, this is a really fun idea and I get the game, but I don't get the story. And so I think sometimes that's definitely a factor in what makes a format not quite hit the mark. Madelyn (23:00) Mm-hmm. yeah, totally. I'm such a early on too. I would be like, number one, number two, number three, number four, number five. And there was no like character journey or like here is where we get, you know, I love to be imaginative about situations, but I think you're right is we can get so caught up in like the details that we don't think of like each individual character's journey or a potential journey or where there is that strategy, where there's the emotion, where there's the argument. Emily Knight (23:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. so they, yeah. Madelyn (23:36) whatever it is. That's a great piece of advice, actually. So a lot of the formats you've created, you've adapted to different countries. And so talk to me about what that looks like, because something can be totally universal, but there's some cultural sort of shifts and adjustments you have to make. So talk to me about that process of like spinning off in different territories. Emily Knight (23:44) Mm. So it's really interesting and it's so fun and it's really exciting when you're either approached or you're part of the company that's doing it. And what's great is you always are working with someone in the team in that territory that has much more knowledge of obviously the territory that it's held to than you do. Because as you say, like there are cultural nuances and things that just don't work. And when I was working for all three, I would meet with the All 3 International team a lot and we would often pitch our formats, just paper formats, we would pitch them internationally just from a really early stage. And you would get feedback like, my God, the Germans would never do this. Like, this is far too sensationalist or like, this isn't harsh enough or this isn't, you And you start to get a sense of the international market and what different territories like and don't like. Madelyn (24:39) You Emily Knight (24:49) And it's really funny because I think what's useful is for people coming up in the industry is to look at the international formats that sell and start to pick out the trends and look at why things are selling internationally and why they're not. To me, it's wild that the Great British Bake Off has worked here because it's so print essentially British that maybe that's the charm that's made it work here. Madelyn (25:19) Yes. Emily Knight (25:19) But like, you know, there are things, there are certain things that you just think, that will never sell anywhere other than in the UK, but then they do. But I think generally speaking, it's those things that have, you know, like the breadth and things like, and this is a really obvious thing to say, but things where language doesn't necessarily play the biggest factor. So we saw don't scream. did really well internationally because it's screaming. So it's like, teams of people going through a scary situation every time they're given their money at the top, every time they scream, they lose their money or their money drops. And so like you're watching, it's really funny. It's like a comedy horror format and you're watching people, it's kind of jump scares. It was when that like jump scare thing was like a real trend. And like that did well because it doesn't necessarily rely on language. Madelyn (25:54) Nice. Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (26:14) that well, you know what I mean? It's just like, it's quite clean. So I think things like that do really well internationally when they come from different sources. And then, you know, there are elements of things that are just too nuanced to a certain culture that just are never gonna work. So it's quite, you know, but yeah, it's always the big broad things. And again, it's that, that's the Holy Grail. Madelyn (26:15) Right. Emily Knight (26:36) And there are some things that you're like, God, I can't believe that that has sold in a certain territory because it feels too spicy or it feels too risque or whatever. And then you're like, cool, okay. And then you watch the version, you're like, oh, okay, that's how they've done that. Like it's just watered down or whatever. it's things, and I think, Madelyn (26:50) Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (26:54) Yeah, we have an element of, what's that phrase? Success has many fathers, failure has none. And when something's been hit somewhere, everyone wants to be a part, so yeah. Madelyn (27:05) Right. Well, there's a lot of, you know, the UK specifically has, they tend to be, I mean, have always been frankly more risque, cheeky, you know, with, with naked attraction. I can give that as an example. Emily Knight (27:17) Yeah. Madelyn (27:19) But what are the biggest differences you see between sort of entertainment and development in the UK versus in the US? Because like I said, the UK has always even with scripted shows has always been sort of well ahead of its time in terms of talking about certain content and sex and things like that. Emily Knight (27:38) Yeah. Madelyn (27:40) And the US always kind of is trickling behind and still trying to make it quite a bit safer. Emily Knight (27:45) It's really interesting, isn't it? I think we, I don't know, maybe we're just more rude. I don't know. think it's like, I think we love the shock, like Brits love the shock factor. And, you know, there's a lot of things that, I wonder if it as well, if it's partly because the UK is so small, like it's smaller than most states. And, you know, when you look at what we've kind of put on and test, it's kind of like, it's such a micro culture, really. So it's, you're representing such a small population of people that I think here you're serving a huge breadth. So you can't really test the same things in the same way because the... difference of opinion and culture across America is so massively different than what it is in the UK. And, you know, I think something like naked attraction, which you referenced before is, like was a really, really risky thing. But we had, you know, Channel 4, which is kind of one of the reasons I got into television, to be honest, because it was very, it's very risky TV. It's really boundary pushing. It answers questions that we all want answered. you know, colors outside of the lines. And kind of like the justification for Naked Attraction, if you will, is that this is a show that, isn't necessarily about perfect body types. This is about showing that you can have body confidence and this is what a huge range of different bodies look like. And actually, we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves, we shouldn't be ashamed of how we look naked, we should look at, we all come in different shapes and sizes. And when you look at that in a dating show, and ultimately it kind of cuts to the chase. This is ultimately what we're all wanting to get to when we're dating. we're all gonna be seeing each other naked. So this is kind of cuts to it. And I think like in terms of having the kind of courage to put shows like that on, like I'm very proud to be part of that television culture that does that. But you'd never sell that here, there's no way. If I went and pitched that to NBC, like, no thank you, goodbye Emily Knight. Like you just. Madelyn (30:03) Yeah, it's, naked attraction, there was something about seeing people's bodies, and I would say women's bodies specifically, so plainly there I've shown it to every woman in my life, literally. I'm like, we're watching this, you have to watch this. Because it, I don't know, there was something about it that normalized bodies and normalized sex in a way that I'd never seen before in a show. Emily Knight (30:13) and Madelyn (30:27) that I really, really loved and at the same time was like, we could never do this. There's no way over here. We'll do what you want to handle and we'll like totally, you know, get spicy, but like full frontal, we're drawing the line. No way. And so you, speaking of naked, speaking of naked, you rebooted a show called How to Look Good Naked. reboots are a big thing right now. Emily Knight (30:35) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah! Madelyn (30:53) So, because nostalgia is such a big thing, but when you're looking at a format and you're trying to reboot it and make it fresh, like what is your approach and what was your sort of experience with how to look good naked? Emily Knight (30:56) Mm. So, How to Look at Naked ultimately is a show about confidence, body confidence and self-confidence. And I think when you're rebooting something or even if you're looking back on something as inspiration for an idea or a genre, and that's a really great way to obviously start when you're brainstorming is like, you know, looking at the space and looking at old shows as ways to... get inspired. I think it's about looking at the root of the original idea and it's kind of thinking like what originally sold this show. Obviously the title, How to Look Good Naked is a great title and that obviously remained. But when you kind of come down to like the nub of the show itself and the format itself, it's like this is really, this is about confidence. And I think with that, it was about looking like, okay, so what were the confidence issues that a woman in her 30s had in the late 90s and early 2000s when it was originally greenlit? And what are the confidence issues that a woman in her 30s now has? And going, okay, let's look at the change that's come in between those years. Like technology and smartphones, for example. Like no one was taking selfies back then. Madelyn (32:19) No filters. Emily Knight (32:20) Like no one was looking at themselves, there were no filters back then. Like everything's changed, like no one was communicating, there was no social media really. You weren't like looking, no one was posting anything. You didn't have to deal with any of that kind of online onslaught of imagery from Instagram and comparing yourself. it's like what is the nub of the issue that it was addressing then? That's the same thing, it's the same issue, but it's just through a different lens. Madelyn (32:23) Right. Emily Knight (32:46) But, you know, reboots of other shows like Deal or No Deal Island, which I am obsessed with by the way, I absolutely love. You're like what, you know, they've kept the best elements of that. Madelyn (32:47) Mm-hmm. Agreed. Emily Knight (32:57) which is the game of Deal or No Deal and they've just turned it up to 11, and they've thrown in a survival show along with it. It's just like, it's absolutely amazing. I just, love it. Apart from the CGI bankers boat, that's my only criticism of that. The CGI on the boat, it's like, come on guys. Get out. Yeah. Madelyn (32:59) Yeah, the briefcases. Yeah. Come on, we couldn't get some budget for this. I feel it's so funny because the island trope, like you and I both, the island trope is, know, there are so many island shows. But, so I'm like, please not do Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Island and Jeopardy Island. But this one really works. It really does. I've been watching it. I think it's, cause I watched Dealer No Deal, like with my parents at home when I was younger. And so to see it now in this format, Emily Knight (33:25) Yeah. my God, I know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Madelyn (33:43) is really smart and it really builds tension so, so well. Yes. Emily Knight (33:47) and the casting is amazing. The casting is great. And to your point about nostalgia, I think nostalgia is such a hot thing at the moment because it gives you comfort and it gives you like, nostalgia is one of the most powerful emotions and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and it's why these shows run and run. It's why we still have American Idol. We still have Survivor. and it's why we bring back, because you're like, God, I know that, I loved that when I watched it with my grandparents. but here it is, and there's a hot guy from Australia in it now, so I'm gonna watch it again. And it's got a little bit of survival in it. But what's great about it is it's not, you're not having to watch them eat bugs. They're in these luxury, beautiful tents, and then they walk down that gorgeous alleyway into the temple, and they're all dressed beautifully, and you're like, give me more. And you've got hot Joe, it's like, it's everything. Madelyn (34:27) Yes. Yeah. Emily Knight (34:44) Just love it. Madelyn (34:45) Yeah, Joe is, was like, I'm just gonna turn this on. I'm watching for the format, obviously. Is there a, if you could, yeah, exactly, it is research. If you could reboot a show from the past, what would it be? Emily Knight (34:49) Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yes. Work! Mm-hmm. Okay, I have two. I have a British one and I have an American one. Okay, my American one is America's Next Top Model. Madelyn (35:06) Okay. Okay, great. You already know exactly. That's all I have to say. Yes. Emily Knight (35:17) Okay. Like, just a dream of a show, right? A dream of a format. Like, the world of it is just perfect and fascinating and where we wanna be. Tyra Banks and like everything that came from her is just glorious. And like, yeah. that like to me, I just loved it. Like the blend of like the serious and the comedy. And what to me was very smart about that format is it had the elements of game and gameplay, but it also had real world. So, and it was kind of one of the first formats that brought in those like real world prizes of like cover girl and you know, all of those things. Madelyn (36:06) Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (36:09) but they also had like things where you could go and you could, like they went to real modeling, like go-sees and they went to do like proper auditions for whatever brand it might be and make connections. So it was a really quite forward thinking format at the time. But yeah, I like, would just, yeah, so that's. Madelyn (36:30) I agree. I had one of the producers on our, one of our earlier episodes who was on seasons two through eight. And I, cause I watched every season of that show as a young girl in a small town. And I just, you're right. There was a, here's, we're going to do the teach and then we're going to do the challenge. And then we're going to like do this amazing race element of getting in. Emily Knight (36:40) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn (36:54) in a city you've never been and having to race and do these things, then we're going to put you in a photo shoot. And then you're exactly right. The way that you could watch the show and then, I don't know, couple, however long later you're like, there she is on the cover of the magazine. I'm going to buy that magazine. Like it broke out from our screens and had these women actually in campaigns. It was so great. I agree with you. That would probably be my answer too. Emily Knight (37:10) Yep. Yep. Yep. And it gave them, yeah, it gave them connections in the real modeling world. Like it wasn't just, it lived outside of the show itself. Like it felt like it was an entity that was actually like, you know, helpful to the girls that were participating. So that, and then my British one is a show called Faking It. So this was a very, very early Studio Lambert format. And you have Madelyn (37:23) Yes. Yes. Emily Knight (37:45) three people, right? One is faking it. they have to, the person faking it has to convince the judges that they are in fact what they are pretending to be. And the things that they like swapped them into were so like, like the polar opposite things. So you'd have like a sheep shearer from this like countryside faking it as like a top end London hairdresser in like Mayfair. Or you'd have like a classically trained cello orchestra player faking it as a DJ in like Ibiza. So, and they only had a week to train up and like get themselves to the standard of the other two that were professional DJs or hairdressers. And then there were times where like I would be Madelyn (38:12) bit. Love it. Get into character. Okay. Emily Knight (38:38) Like I'd just be like a burger flipping chef working in McDonald's, but in the week I've trained up and I'm in a Michelin starred restaurant and I'm competing with these two other Michelin starred chefs and I would win and they would think someone else was faking it. And it was just, yeah, exactly two, two is not exactly that, but it was just so good. And like what was really smart about it was that the casting of like those like Madelyn (38:53) I love that. It's like two truths and a lie. It's yes. Emily Knight (39:04) the juxtaposition of doing this person's gonna become a this, was just really funny and it was very playful and it was just true format, just for the fun of it. obviously they want money if they manage to convince them that they were in fact a hairdresser and not a sheep shearer. Madelyn (39:15) Mm-hmm. I love that. mean, Studio Lambert, you know, they the studio behind Traitors. So, I mean, they've just clearly had an incredible run of brilliant stuff. But watching normal people who aren't actors act, I love. Like, love a sort of like, you know, even on like Claim to Fame, for instance, when they have to act like they're like a completely different person and come up with this backstory. I love all any format that requires that. Emily Knight (39:33) Mm-hmm. Yep. my f- Yes. Madelyn (39:48) I think it's so interesting because as an audience, think we, think as a person, you like to hope that you have good intuition, that you can spot people who lie. We all believe, we all want to believe that we can spot the liar and we want to put that to the test. think all the time. And so it's right. Like anytime I'm like, I'm like, so I just think any sort of, love that. I have not heard of that. I need to go watch that. Emily Knight (39:57) Yes. Yes. completely. Completely. Yeah, mm-hmm. And the other thing that was great about it was that it was such a, it was a journey, you know? So if you're a little, you know, if you work on a farm and then suddenly you're learning a skill and you're like on, you know, in this like amazing salon in London, the confidence that that gave these characters was amazing. And it was sort of, kind of had a little bit of a makeover element to it. And it was, yeah, it was just great. Madelyn (40:17) that's great. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't just doing it for the sake of doing it. was like, let's, let's do something that's a little adjacent that like will allow you kind of a peek into a world maybe you've never had before. I love that. my gosh. You mentioned earlier that you said that you're seeing a return or what you feel like is like a big thirst for formats. What else are you seeing sort of in the unscripted space? What trends are you seeing? You know, are you, there's Emily Knight (40:43) No. Yeah, elevate. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Madelyn (41:07) It's like I said, we go through sort of the wholesome queer eye content and then we get into, okay, wholesome and earnest is a bad word. want zeitgeist, we want this. So what are you noticing right now that you're seeing and what do you hope to see more of? Emily Knight (41:16) Mmm. Mmm. Well, I'm noticing, the sort of trends I'm noticing is I think there's a lot of buyers looking to YouTube for inspiration of the form. And by that, it kind of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning about simplicity. And I think like having that very simple gettable, like, I'm gonna watch that, because I understand what it is, and I see it on the tile, and I know that Mr. Beast is gonna be eating a thousand burgers, or whatever it is. I think that, you know, those trends, like the YouTube inspiration thing is just, it comes down to that simplicity. So definitely that is a big thing, and I think Beast Games has done a lot for our industry. Madelyn (41:52) You Emily Knight (42:07) and is amazing. But, you know, obviously the scale of it is very hard to replicate on any other budget other than that. But it's really exciting, you know, it's exciting. And I think like bringing in that kind of, that shorter form idea of game is really exciting. Like I think in game formats, you know, again, like just back to simplifying everything, like you don't need to have a Madelyn (42:15) Yeah. Emily Knight (42:33) game or a challenge where you need to explain on the screen with graphics, like they're gonna do this, then they're gonna do this, then they're gonna jump through this hoop and then this hoop. It's like just, yeah, exactly, yeah. Here's a cookie, here's a pin, get it out. And those kind of, I think, simple, that's what our learning should be from that trend of YouTube. In terms of like, Madelyn (42:40) It's like stack blocks if you're as far as you're out. Like just, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (42:58) what I would love to see, like what I think would be great to come back. Like I would love for there to be a new fashion show come out. Like we had a show in the UK called The Clothes Show and it was a weekly show and it was just about style and it was telling you like what, and I know we have Project Runway and there's like lots of kind of making shows, but I don't feel like there's a fashion show that tells us about like trends. So I'd love that and the other genre that I am desperate to bring back or Madelyn (43:19) Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (43:26) crack is wedding. Madelyn (43:27) Girl, you're talking to someone who's taken out so many wedding shows. like, and I know I'm like, cause I was in the wedding industry for years like it has become a dirty word. And I agree with you. would Emily Knight (43:28) Right? I know, Madelyn (43:39) It has been like people just are straight up no, no matter what it is. It does. Emily Knight (43:39) I know. Yep, no, but it's gotta come back, it's gotta come back. like this, everything turns. work, television works in cycles. And you know, say yes to the dress, four weddings, like don't tell the bride, all of those shows, like I loved those shows. And I think like, you know, when we're talking about things that, you know, what are the trends, what's coming in? Like honestly, I feel, I don't know if this is necessarily reflected in buying yet, but I feel like, Madelyn (43:49) Totally. Emily Knight (44:07) Everybody is craving joy. Like we are living in a time of some real bad news. And I think like we have a responsibility to produce the antithesis of that. Like we need to bring the joy. Like that's our job, we're entertainers. Madelyn (44:21) Agreed. I think escapism, I was talking to another producer who was like, I don't think anyone wants to have a serious thought for the next couple of years. And so our job is to just provide that sense of escapism, you know, and I completely agree. And weddings are a great way to do that. So I'm with you. I would love to see the wedding format come back, you know, wedding bridal, whatever it is, and not as like an end note to a dating show. Emily Knight (44:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Madelyn (44:50) but as its own entity, yes, totally. Is there a genre or format that you think is due for a major sort of like reinvention? Like something that where you're just like, it's just gotten stale, we've seen the same stuff constantly. Emily Knight (44:51) Exactly. As the format itself. Yeah, yeah, agreed. I'd love to see talent shows that don't have the judging table and three judges. Like I would love to see a new way of judging generally. Whether that is an interactive element, a live element that's like, know, bringing in some sort of cool tech or if it's, I don't know, I just like, look at Madelyn (45:09) Mmm. Emily Knight (45:26) I look at Idol and although I still love it and I still watch it, I feel that we haven't had a reinvented judging mechanic since the chair turn. And I'm like, is, which genius, like what, you know, and I think that like studio talent, know, I think that's ripe for reinvention. Madelyn (45:38) since the chair, since the voice, right? Which, brilliant. Yep. Emily Knight (45:56) for sure. Yeah. Madelyn (45:56) Yeah, definitely. I agree. would say culinary. There's a lot in culinary where I'm just like... Emily Knight (46:02) Yeah. Madelyn (46:05) So I, and there's good stuff out there, like next level chef. There's some great sort of like big game pieces that we've brought along to culinary, but I'd certainly love to see like something fresh there. I'd die to be in a room with you when you're in a pitch. when you're pitching kind of what is, what is your approach to, to that process and you know, with a buyer. Emily Knight (46:26) So I sing and I dance, no I'm joking. I, again, like I try and keep it as simple as possible. If it's a general pitch, I won't ever go in with more than three ideas because I feel like the worst thing you can do is seem like you're, and another thing, and another thing, and another thing. Madelyn (46:28) Hahaha Emily Knight (46:52) So I try and keep it like, yeah, exactly. like, go on. So like, I try and keep like everything quite as if it feels exclusive. I think like over preparation is key. I kind of coined the phrase with one of my old development teams, which is I like to shut all the exits. And by that I mean, Madelyn (46:53) the rabbit out of the hat like, Mmm. Emily Knight (47:18) I don't wanna let them out. So if I'm pitching something, I wanna know that if they have a question, I have the answer, so they can't get out. So let's seal the exits on an idea. So let's think of every single possible flaw and try and solve it before we pitch. So yeah, so simple and very clear, clean pitching. I then also like, I feel that everything sort of doubles in speed when you're pitching. So I'm always very conscious in my head of like slow your voice down and you feel like you're speaking like this but you're actually speaking like this. So I think like I try and keep it quite slow and I try and keep it quite very simple and understandable. And I think, know, it's really easy to when you know your idea so well, it's really easy to. you know, forget that you're actually telling someone for the first time. This is fresh ears, you're hearing this for the first time. And then I think the next, like, best piece of advice in a pitch is to time yourself before you do it, because you, like, most pitches are 30 minutes, and if you go on and on, then there isn't gonna be any time for questions at the end. So I always try and just, like, make sure I've, like, run through myself, I've done a practice pitch. Madelyn (48:23) Mm. Emily Knight (48:40) I do practice pictures with my colleagues so that I go, I'm someone that's never heard it before as well. So I say like, what do you think? Like, I want your feedback. Like, does this make sense? Does this not make sense? Which parts do and don't? And then, yeah, just try and get it done to like 20, 25 minutes so that there's space at the end for them to ask questions that I of course have all the answers to. Yeah. Madelyn (48:59) Of course. What's your opinion on sizzles? You know, for formats, if it's not a talent-driven ensemble or an occu-follow or something, what is your opinion on sizzles for formats? Emily Knight (49:12) Well, this is actually quite recently changed because if you'd asked me this six months ago, I would have said, do a sizzle for everything. Now, I don't, I'd say don't bother because honestly, like they've seen them all. Like we're using, we're drawing from the same pool of like content, which is like old shows, right? And for the amount it, costs to make them. I don't really think that they're worth it. I think you're better off like doing logline, know, like to sort of testing through loglines. And, you know, I think the money is better spent, what you would spend on a tape. I think the money is better spent flushing out your format and either bringing in, you know, a game producer or a Madelyn (50:00) Mm. Emily Knight (50:05) an expert producer in whatever genre the format's in, rather than the 8K or whatever a good tape's gonna cost. So yeah, honestly, it's really funny, because it's only just recently changed, and I've actually spoken to a few bars about this and said, are you still seeing tapes? And they're like less and less, and they matter less now as well. Madelyn (50:20) Yep. it's it's a bit controversial, but what's do you or how do you use AI at all in your pitches for imagery or, you know, for anything else? Do you? Emily Knight (50:22) Yeah. I use it for imagery a lot and it saved me five million years trying to find that one specific image. Like, my God, it's like, wow. And then you're like, and can you make them wear blue? And it's like, sure. Like, I love it. I think when it first came out, I was like, my God, this is great. And I can just get it to write on my log lines and I can, you know, but it can't. And I think it's, Madelyn (50:35) same. Yep, the perfect photo, I know. Right? No. Emily Knight (50:59) I don't like doing it for that either. prefer, you know, think, I don't know. I think as well, like I'm not either 100 % certain on all of the like legal side of it. So I don't want myself to be, and also just for my own kind of conscientiousness, I don't want AI to be writing my formats for me. So I don't use it for that. But for images, absolutely. Madelyn (51:13) Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (51:24) Like it's fantastic for that, it really is. And also the thing I'm using it for more and more is research. you know, it's like chat GPT versus Google is amazing because it can pull everything together. So, yeah. Madelyn (51:24) I agree completely. Yes, I do the same. I'm the exact same way. Chad GPT has yet to give me, you ask it to give you a title and you're like, what the hell is that? Like what, like I've tried, know, and I, but, for, no, for imagery, for just like trying to paint the picture, it, really is perfect. It saves a ton of time where I find that you can focus a lot more on the content, which is really, really nice. Emily Knight (51:47) I know, I know. babe, Yeah, yeah. Madelyn (52:03) Any super memorable sort of pitch room or zoom stories that you have where it it'll always kind of stick with you? Emily Knight (52:13) yes, well, I I remember going in, like this is something to note for like when you get mandates and you're like, great, okay, I'll come up with a list. I remember going in to a BBC pitch and having like, like I had like, it was, it was for car shows and I had three car formats and I was like, fantastic. I'm going in, I'm all excited. And then they were like, so here's what we're after. And it's like, definitely don't want any car shows because we've just been inundated. And I'm like, and it was all I had. And the lesson is, you know, always have something else up your sleeve. And I just remember that sinking feeling of like, oh my God, this is the worst. Like, I just don't want that. And then I remember another terrible pitch of having. It was like more of a general, was with a head of department at ITV. And it was like, just kind of loads and you know, we'll just throw some ideas around. And just having like, no, no, no, no, no. And at the end of the pitch, he said to me, all of your ideas were wrong, but you were great because you were so resilient and you took the no's really well. And I was like, thank you. And I think like it's just, it's, pitching is so difficult and it's so, you know, it's one of those things that the more you do it, the better you get, of course. But you have to remember that ideas are so hard to come up with. And the person you're pitching it to will know when they hear it and it's not personal. And I think like you, You know it, like when you hear or when you have an idea, when you know you know, it's like falling in love. Like you just know, you're like, my God, like got it. Like I love it. And I think that's it with pitching. It's like they're waiting for that one. And that's, it's rare, but it's why we keep doing it. Madelyn (54:08) Yeah. Yeah, mean resilience, right? Resilience and rejection is such a, I've talked about this a lot on the show, just, it is a part of this job. There's no way around it, it is going to happen. So for you, do you, how has how you've changed with rejection changed from early on in your career to now? Are you kind of now, you like, no big deal, brush the shoulders off? Do you feel your feelings and have a moment? Emily Knight (54:27) the main part. Yep. Madelyn (54:43) Are you sort of like, okay, I'm gonna like reboot it and rethink it in my head. Like how are you approaching sort of rejection and what is your advice for someone who feels like they've just gotten a million nos lately? Emily Knight (54:51) and Yeah, I think it, rejection evolves and rejection has definitely evolved for me in that early in my career, I took it very, very personally and I took it very seriously. And I think, you know, it comes with maturity, not just in your career, but just as a person generally, if when you have an idea and you think this. best thing and I'm going to sell it and it's going to be amazing. Why would they say no? And then when you come into your career a little bit more and you get more experience and you realize that, you know, actually that's been pitched 55 times this week, you know, the mop, exactly. Madelyn (55:33) Ooh, the mop. Yes. There's nothing worse than going into a pitch so confident because you're like, why doesn't this exist? It's a home run. And then they just kind of look at you like, babe, like we've seen this a million times. Emily Knight (55:45) How has this never been done? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's terrible. And so I think kind of maturity, and I think, you know, we all have, we all have to as well have the confidence in order to pitch and in order to come up with ideas, right? So you need to have that like confidence of going, this is the next big thing. This is great. So. Creating and curating that balance is really tough. But I think, and that's why the rejection is harder when you're younger, because you're coming down from a, it's hitting you from a higher place because you, you know. And I think as you get older and you get more experience in your career, you start to understand the reasons why the rejections are. I mean, for me now, some hit a lot harder than others. And I think that The rejections that, you know, that when you don't get something, I find it hard when it's like, when it feels unfair. Like I've got such a like sense of, a strong sense of justice. And I'm like, this just isn't fair. Like this should be. And I think like one of my things in this industry is like, I wish that the big places would take. Madelyn (56:48) Sure Mm-hmm. Right. Emily Knight (57:05) risks on smaller companies and not just buy from the big places and I think a lot of you know I think that that you know when you're not working for one of those you know huge big four companies if you're not at the studio Lambert or and a model of Fremantle then it's you know it's you're used to working even harder and your idea has to even punch through even more and so I think with rejection My advice is that you have to think of rejection as a whole package and it's not necessarily always about your idea. It's about many, many other factors that come along with the idea. The timing, the talent, the materials, whether there's another idea and play from somewhere better. That's not just about you and your company. It's about your company. It's about a producer that might be attached. It's about someone who might be friends with the buyer. Like it's, and that's the harsh and horrible reality of this industry is, you know, sometimes these You know, it is unfair, but that, you know, that is part of it. And I think, you know, my way of dealing with it now is I know I'm always gonna have another idea. Madelyn (58:08) Yes. Emily Knight (58:09) So like ultimately you just, that's the kind of faith I keep. Whether that's, know, dumb or not, like that's just kind of, guess how I keep going with it. I'm always gonna have another idea. Madelyn (58:20) No, think, that comes, that confidence comes from years and years of you sitting down and going, nothing is coming to me in my head. And then it always does. you know that like, so that confidence is not, it's not a blind confidence you have. It's years and years and years of trust you've built with yourself. Do you tend when you're pitching to, um, depending on your timing and everything, but I, do you tend to always give sort of a personal anecdote and talk about the inspiration? Emily Knight (58:52) I do, yeah, I do. I think it really warms the room and I think it's a great way in. I think people love to hear the genesis of an idea, where something's come from. Like we took something out recently that was based on a very personal experience that happened to me that I... Madelyn (58:53) Yeah. Emily Knight (59:11) kind of involved like my family and then kind of going, riffing from that, it then came into the format. so I think, yeah, I think especially when it is something that comes from a personal place, it's a really, yeah, it's definitely a good way to go in. And I think like, you know, honestly, as I said, like I think they always want the question. Like that's the most annoying question we get asked by the buyer is what's the question at the heart. So I think when you have that answer at the top, like absolutely go in with that as your initial cell. Madelyn (59:43) Yeah, I agree completely. I have kind of a fun question before we wrap up. If you were trapped in, this is, I originally was going to say one of your own formats, but I'm going to say if you could be trapped in any format, in any universe, what would you want to be in? Emily Knight (59:54) Yeah. Well, if it's one of my own formats, I would be trapped in escape because then I could build something out of my own format to escape. I would. my gosh, of any format in any universe. mean, honestly, like I do feel like I would want to, okay, no, okay, okay. I feel like I would want to be in RuPaul's Drag Race. Madelyn (1:00:05) Exactly. You would win the money, you'd get out. What a perfect answer. Absolutely. Are you joking? Emily Knight (1:00:28) I just wanna be, I wanna be trapped in that world. Like, and I never wanna get out. I just wanna be walking up and down. I wanna be there with RuPaul. I wanna be in the make room. That's where I wanna be. Yeah. Madelyn (1:00:33) No. Everything is a performance. Everything is theater. Constantly, nonstop. Okay, yes. I agree with you. Yes! Emily Knight (1:00:46) Yeah, it's camp, it's fun, there's cocktails. That's I wanna be trapped. Take me there. Madelyn (1:00:54) my gosh, I love that. Yes. Okay. A hundred percent. What are you, last thing, what are you, what are you enjoying right now that's out there? I mean, I know as producers, sometimes it can be hard for us to enjoy, but I personally have no problem enjoying. I watch a ton of TV. So what are you watching? Emily Knight (1:01:06) Yeah. No, I love enjoying. Yeah. Well, so I did really enjoy Beast Games and the new Squid Games. I really enjoyed Extracted. I'm really enjoying Extracted. Yeah. Madelyn (1:01:18) Ooh, that was interesting. It was such an interesting take. Like I love alone. And so, but like doing that where it was like, but your loved ones can watch you. They can make these decisions smart. Emily Knight (1:01:25) Yeah. Yeah, and again, like that's a perfect example of something that is not reinventing the wheel. It's just turning it slightly. like, it's just really, really smart. And I also, really liked the casting of putting people in there that weren't like the mix of people that were great, but also like useless. So I love that. And then, you know, everyone says it's annoying, but Traitors is amazing. Madelyn (1:01:39) Mm-hmm. It is, okay, it is. The cliffhanger this past week was I'm dying. Emily Knight (1:01:56) you know, but yeah, it's a, yeah, just too good. I'm dying. But yeah, like for me at the moment, like my big ones are Traters, Deal or No Deal, Island, Extracted. And then, you know, I still go to like, I go back to things. Like I'll just like randomly rewatch a season of Drag Race. Or like, you know, I think like, Madelyn (1:02:15) Mm-hmm. Emily Knight (1:02:19) you know, when we're doing brainstorms, like I'll love to do that kind of like format mash and bring things together. And then I'll be like, oh, I just wanna remind myself of like, what was the format of like, or when they brought, like when they did Boys Versus Girls on Next Top Model. And I'll watch like a couple episodes of that. So I do often like pull back and look to some old shows. Madelyn (1:02:42) Mm. Emily Knight (1:02:44) And what's great as well about that I have is the kind of like straddled UK and US knowledge as well. So I'll give you some UK shows to watch too. Madelyn (1:02:55) Yes, a hundred percent. Is there, you mentioned this, so it's making me curious. Is there anything that's part of your sort of day-to-day or even week to week routine that you feel like is like pretty vital to your creativity? Emily Knight (1:03:05) Well, I do, I set myself chunks of time to write. And when I do that, find, and when I say that, I mean like I write my, you know, obviously whatever I have to write, my debts and stuff. But I also use it as time to go back over all my like random things that I've sent myself. So. Madelyn (1:03:09) Mmm. Yep. Emily Knight (1:03:30) over the week and over the weekend. I send myself voice notes of ideas or whatever. I've strangely also started doing it in my sleep, which is very uncomfortable because I'm like, but it's like a creepy whisper. it's like, note to self, it would be a good idea to put people together. Madelyn (1:03:37) Me too. That's funny. Emily Knight (1:03:55) on a bus and every time the bus stops a new person comes on and it's a data and it's called the love bus. you know, it's just like, just like random nonsense. It's like, yeah, exactly. It's golem. Yeah. Madelyn (1:04:04) It's just like the Gollum voice, like. I Emily Knight (1:04:10) But, also I think that, you know, what's crucial is like actually making space and time to brainstorm and find, you know, new ways to do it, which is, you know. coming up 20 years in, I'm like, what do I, whew, reinventing a new way to brainstorm and going, God. But yeah, maybe I should ask Chuck GPC. Madelyn (1:04:30) I know. It is interesting though, the different things just to get your, again, if you're like, for me, I'm a very big title person. So I'll even just be like, like I'll hear a turn of phrase out on the street and be like, I'm same as you. I'm like recording it. I'm like, Ooh, okay, what could that be? So it's always that. And I think giving yourself the space to do that is so important. And also giving yourself the, if it doesn't come to you, you're giving yourself the grace to just like, Emily Knight (1:04:46) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Madelyn (1:04:59) Be like, okay, it's not time for me to be like full of 10 million thoughts and that's okay. well, this has just been so much fun. I just absolutely adore you. You are so, so brilliant. You are so much fun to talk to. and I, I can't wait to see what next huge hit it's going to be out there from you. Cause it's inevitable, babe. Emily Knight (1:05:06) so much fun. Same. Thank you. Well, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. We've got to keep fighting the good fight, the good idea fight. Great, thank you so much for having me. Madelyn (1:05:24) Absolutely. 100%. Bradley Carpenter (1:05:33) I want to create a show with her so badly because her mind, guys, her mind, it's just absolutely insane. I am recording this before the Traitors finale and the Southern Hospitality finale and the reunion, and I am absolutely dying. So I will have to recap those on the next episode. I hope you guys all have a great weekend. Thank you for liking, rating, reviewing, subscribing, all the things. And we'll see you next week on The Unscripted Files. Madelyn Cunningham (1:06:04) The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.