Adam Neuhaus (00:00)
our lives are all about opportunity costs. And so the time you spend on something is the time you're not spending on something else.

I have a variety of rubrics that I all different types of projects in terms of evaluating. it's just another piece of data for me to make that decision. And the decision in the end is a mix between my gut.

and this kind of objective mind criteria. And then I make a decision whether to spend my precious energy on it. laying down pretty good projects is maybe the hardest thing to do because you're like, it's sitting here, it's in my hand.

This A project doesn't exist yet. How do I know it will even arrive? And that's the kind of faith and trust that's sometimes needed to wait for it.

Madelyn (00:48)
Hello, happy Friday. Welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment.

I really appreciate you listening today. I'm really personally very excited about this guest today. ⁓ because I'm in development, we have someone on who is really giving incredible prescriptive, tangible insights into development as someone who took thousands of pitches while head of development over at ESPN

to now being the founder of the Nonfiction Hotlist,

which is a curated list of the hottest nonfiction projects He has incredible insights when it comes to project positioning, pitching, materials, and it's all in this episode. So we're going to get right into it. Can't wait for you to listen to my conversation with Adam Neuhaus

Madelyn (01:47)
Adam Neuhaus how you doing today?

Adam Neuhaus (01:49)
Hi, nice to be here.

Madelyn (01:51)
Where are you coming, where are you at right now? Where are you coming to us from?

Adam Neuhaus (01:55)
coming from Brooklyn, New York.

Madelyn (01:57)
Are you? Okay, so we're both on East Coast time over here. I love it. What does your day look like today?

Adam Neuhaus (02:02)
It's a beautiful fall day. So I have not gotten myself a pumpkin spice latte, but it feels like my one time a year is approaching. It feels like fall.

Madelyn (02:11)
It's the,

it is the optimal time right now. Yes, I love, Fall in New York is just absolutely sublime. It's perfect. That is what they say. I'm so excited to chat with you because you sit at a really interesting intersection of the industry that is really hard to navigate right now. You recently posted on LinkedIn and just shameless plug for anyone who's not following Adam on LinkedIn.

Adam Neuhaus (02:19)
That's right. That's what the songs in the movies say.

Madelyn (02:38)
do yourself a huge favor right now. He's always posting the most incredible insights when it comes to nonfiction development. A great follow. The criteria list you posted earlier this week on the score sheet for how to determine what makes a good doc, what makes a project pursuable was just golden. But you recently posted on LinkedIn, the gap between compelling story and a fundable project is where most projects

Adam Neuhaus (02:58)
thank you.

Madelyn (03:06)
die. And that graveyard is really where you live. That's, that's where you come in. You leverage your years of development experience to help bridge that gap. Talk to me about how your career has led you to this point.

Adam Neuhaus (03:10)
You

Yeah, I think it's always been hard in development. It's always the kind of R &D of the film or TV process.

you know, the idea of creating a blueprint for an idea before it exists. The idea of like finding an idea and honing that idea and getting that idea to a place that it becomes compelling that some other entity is going to give you lots of money to make that idea is very challenging, but it's always been challenging. Yes, there were more buyers maybe earlier on in my career, but you know, I have done

A lot of stuff on the production company side. So certainly on the sell side where you're coming up with ideas and formats and I have done reality television and branded and digital and

long-form doc stuff and then certainly I've spent time on the other side on the buy side when I worked at ESPN where my job was the opposite of instead of trying to come up with ideas to sell at ESPN it was how do I decide which ones we should buy out of the thousands of pitches that come in so both are kind of two sides of it but certainly a compelling idea is part of it but I think one of the things people don't remember about development is that

you're hoping to get it bought so that a place that buys it wants to get viewers and they want to have it be something that attracts interest. So sometimes an idea can be really beautiful, but it's not going to be something that draws people in on interest. And so what's cool about the industry is that there's lots of ways to make that project happen, right? You hear, especially on the nonfiction side and the documentary side, a lot of people get their projects financed in bits and pieces.

through donors and grants and just little by little and get their stuff made and get it into a film festival and then have to worry about distribution. The side of having an idea and then again taking it to a streamer or somebody to like pay for it all at once is a sometimes a harder thing to do and a bit more orchestrated around projects and ideas that can bring in an audience from the buyer perspective.

Madelyn (05:30)
Yeah, absolutely. This is something I struggled with early in development and something I see a lot is it's a good idea, but for who? you, something can exist and be a good idea, but it can't be a good idea outside of the context of the market right now and who's buying and what they want to buy and what audiences want and what's in the...

zeitgeist and what's water cooler? Like there has to be, it may be a good idea in a different context, but what does it look like in the market context for 2025, six, seven.

Adam Neuhaus (06:00)
That's a perfect

way of saying it. And I think that's the part of development that people don't understand is part of development. It's understanding what the market is. It's understanding not just what the mandates are because those can be not worth the paper they're printed on. Yeah, they can be useless and sometimes helpful, sometimes not. But it's like, you watching the stuff that comes out from those places? Have you watched their previous stuff?

Madelyn (06:14)
I just got them.

Adam Neuhaus (06:25)
Have you been around long enough to understand what projects have been pitched in the marketplace and not gone through? And so it is that understanding of the market, which I think can separate somebody from, I have an idea, let me help sculpt this idea to, again, what you just said, like understanding where this can go and how it can fit and in the mode it needs to be created in order to be a fit for whatever, know, insert buyer here.

Madelyn (06:51)
how often do we hear, I can't believe this isn't made yet. Why doesn't this exist? And it's kind of the most obvious idea. Like, I don't know, it's below deck for private jets or something. And you're like, I promise you it's been pitched a million times. There's a reason it doesn't exist. That was another mistake I've made early on was just thinking I was a total genius because how has this not been made yet? And you take it out and they're like, hey.

Adam Neuhaus (07:13)
Sure.

Yeah,

I mean, yeah, yeah.

Madelyn (07:18)
So you're right, it's having that

sense of what's gone around, what's been around, knowing why that's not getting made and forgetting about it moving on.

Adam Neuhaus (07:28)
Yeah, I think people who dabble in development, which by the way, you can, the best thing is you can just have an idea and you are, if you're an outsider, you just, maybe you come across something that hasn't been pitched and that, that is the magic of Hollywood. But I always try to imagine or tell people like every, you know, there are several thousand production companies that every day are getting up and coming up with hundreds of ideas that they can pitch through over many, many, many years and eras of that. So.

You know, there are just a lot of people who are not like, hey, here's this one little idea, but people who are making full slates, putting a lot of time and energy into having conversations with the buyers and understanding what they need. you know, a lot of, if you work in development, you're essentially working in failure. I would say 98 % of the things I've ever worked on have never gone anywhere. You know, there were projects that I have carried for years that has...

Madelyn (08:15)
Mmm.

Adam Neuhaus (08:22)
you know, got close to being happening, have fallen apart, have come back together and still don't end up going forward. And so you have to develop quite a tough skin because sometimes if you're in production, like it gets handed to you and it's like, all right, this is already commissioned. Now we're going to make it. Now is it going to turn out great? Who knows? We got to make it, but at least it will get made. But a lot of development people that I know, people who've been in it a long time, you work on things for years and nothing ever happens with it.

and you have to tell your family and friends, like, no, I'm good at this. Like, but where's the thing? Like, no, no, no, I'm good at it. And it's just, it's very hard to sell something it always has.

Madelyn (09:02)
Adam, that is so real. can't even tell you. Like the family and friends comment with Thanksgiving coming up. I'm like, I'm not ready. There's so much left on the cutting room floor where you had an incredible project, amazing materials, talent.

and you kind of just have nothing to show for it it goes to die. So then tell me, you've seen thousands of pitches, you've shepherded hundreds of projects, what makes a project fundable in the year of our Lord 2025?

Adam Neuhaus (09:19)
It's,

I think in our in this year in this era right now I would say access being number one So I would say if you have access to a world that nobody else has access to or an entity That is like that is clearly the fastest path towards something. I think right now there's a real fetish for access to something That's number one. But you know, I go back to some of my reality TV roots as well. I still believe

like characters are a huge thing to bring to the table. But really understanding, are they a good character on paper as a description, or are they a compelling person to watch on television? Are they Real Housewives good, or Below Deck good, or Bravo level good as a character? Or is it like, you know, I think frequently sometimes in the athlete world, it might seem like an amazing backstory of somebody, but

maybe they're just not that compelling to watch. So I think characters is certainly a big part of it. And then stakes, certainly anything with very, very strong stakes is gonna be something that's very compelling for people. think that's why true crime is always gonna be a category where people stuff, because it's the most serious stakes that exists. those are some of the main things, but yeah, it's a...

It's a real challenge. think there's a lot of the pendulum has swung right now towards name brand type development or name brand type thing, because it's just easier for the buyers to market something that already has a deep following or brand equity out there. Now, you know, I'm a believer in story and like, is the story really great? But I think as the pendulum swings, like right now it's very much on the kind of like,

brand awareness side of something that could be in a press release. We talk a lot about development press releases where again, you're announcing a thing about a person or about an entity and you get a lot of pickup because those names matter. Versus like, this just happens to be an incredible story. And so I'm always hoping that the pendulum will kind of swing back to story. And I think it will. It always kind of goes back and forth between story.

and access and brand names. But there, you the other part you left out about taking projects out to market, sometimes things out of your control, like a new, that person gets laid off or a new person comes in or a reorg happens at the organization. Now you have a new person who's not tied to your project and hasn't been shepherding it along for a year. So there's so many things. But in this year of 2025, having undeniable access.

Madelyn (11:52)
Yeah.

Adam Neuhaus (12:06)
to something is the fastest path.

Madelyn (12:08)
Well, and that's something that no one can take away from you. Like you can in your brain say, well, what about this or how about this format? But if you have specific access that has some stakes, us something, then that's something that no one can take away from you. that.

Adam Neuhaus (12:22)
Yeah,

in a very positive way. You could be first year out of college and if you secure something through a family connection or through some other realm of friends and you have access to it, well then you're a producer on that project. Like you can skip all the things. Like it is really democratic in that way that you can just go get the access that nobody can take away and then figure out the story telling.

Madelyn (12:46)
Exactly. Do you think, you know, you were talking about the press releases and sort of the existing IP and I find that in a really, this really kind of risk averse market, there's less marketing dollars, shows are not getting blasted on billboards anymore. whether it's Monopoly or Clue or Sherlock Holmes, there's an existing IP element or some sort of awareness element that also has to exist, even if it's

Okay, well, Utah's looking really good right now. Like even if it's that sort of like, this isn't the zeitgeist, there needs to be some sort of familiar connection that already exists for something to get traction.

Adam Neuhaus (13:24)
It's just, mean, look at your own consumer diet. Like we're all just inundated with stuff. And so it's just, it's a code to have it happen faster. At least that's what marketing departments think at these places.

You know, I would certainly love to track every announcement that's on deadline of last 10 years and see which things actually got made versus announced. Somebody should do that study. That's certainly something that would be interesting to see. But I think this comes around to what you can do around a project. I do think we're exiting the era of just relying on the distributor to market the project and get eyeballs on it.

Madelyn (13:44)
Right? Yes.

Adam Neuhaus (14:06)
and that Netflix might be big enough, among all the other ones, like something could pop up and be huge and you've never heard of it. Or like we're all like in these niche communities that exist now and you can kind of build your algorithm around the stuff you're interested in and not see kind of other stuff. And so it becomes a challenge. And so what you can do as an individual creator, which...

is will be nothing new to anybody who's in the kind of creator lane, which is like build your own audience, right? And, and be your own leverage. And I think that type of thinking is starting to port over to traditional nonfiction storytelling where you can't just like make a doc and a teaser and then just get it bought out of a festival and that's it. And then let them like do the traditional marketing stuff. Well, we're really encouraging people and all the conversations I'm having with docu-

filmmakers and nonfiction people is you have to do a lot more community building earlier on in your project. From the very very beginning you need to start building the email list, pulling people into your process because what will happen is when your project is done and you have a strong engaged community and it does not have to be Mr. Beast size, it could be 10,000 people in a very particular niche, that will help your leverage in getting a better deal for yourself.

Madelyn (15:21)
Hmm.

Adam Neuhaus (15:22)
Or if it's not a play for distribution, now the tools that are off the shelf to distribute your own stuff and monetize directly to your audience. So now instead of just having a project that might've just been finished and orphaned because there's no place to put it, you maybe could sell it back to your 10,000 person list at a couple of bucks or whatever it is and make some of that money. I do think while it's harder than ever to sell to the traditional big streamers because they've all got a little more

Madelyn (15:41)
Mmm.

Adam Neuhaus (15:49)
risk averse, ordering less, there's less buyers. There on the other side there's actually never been more opportunity to sell directly to the rest of the world via Instagram, via YouTube, via your own newsletters and monetize your own stuff. So I think that part is wildly exciting for content creators.

Madelyn (16:07)
Interesting. Okay. So you're talking, you're talking, getting on TikTok saying, Hey, I'm trying to make a documentary about XYZ. Here's the process and documenting it like people would do if they're opening a coffee shop. That's a really, but Adam, that's such a scary thing to do because it's almost, it seems like it's a bit of a kind of ick stigma in the industry though, to talk about projects before they're going to market. Do you know what I, to like publicize them.

Adam Neuhaus (16:30)
Totally.

It's a great point. think a couple of things. have lots of thoughts about this. I think there is just like a full on two generations now who will read it more as authenticity than ick. I think you can decide what type of storytelling that you want to do. But yes, artists and directors are a little scared of like working on their precious pearl and then they just want to put it out when it's done. And I actually just think like...

Madelyn (16:36)
Okay.

Right?

Adam Neuhaus (16:57)
that is just very hard to do. Like maybe you have that opportunity if you're fully funded or you're in a space in your career where that's possible. But for everybody else, yeah, I think you need to like bring people inside the behind the scenes. Talk to recently a project that is bringing on a YouTube creator as an executive producer on their project at the beginning of the project.

So they're still making their doc, but now this EP will be making stuff along the way as part of their duties as being an executive producer on a project. And so I started to think about this idea that we only look for executive producers, typically celebrities, when the project's done.

because that's when they can evaluate it and that's when you can, you know, they don't want to get on a bad project either so they can look at it. But I think there's a lot of opportunities to bring people in much earlier. But yeah, I think unfortunately or not, it's a little bit like what happened in the music industry too. Like you can't just rely on the single piece of artwork to be the calling card and you have to find a way to bring people in on the journey. But again, you can do it in whatever way you want.

It could be about your community, could be about the story itself. Correct. There's a million different ways to do that. So you just really have to choose which one of those ways appeals to you or...

Madelyn (18:06)
be a sub stack.

Adam Neuhaus (18:15)
or the one that least bums you out and then kind of commit and just be consistent by building that and building alliances with organizations, alliances with other talent, and just trying to bring people along. So I just think that's the era we're in.

Madelyn (18:29)
It makes sense, an extension of the experience beyond what we see on the screen. Whether that's written, verbal, visual, yeah, that grassroots community building early on ⁓ in nonfiction.

Adam Neuhaus (18:40)
And here's

a little bit of a reframe on it for people. mean, it's so interesting to me that doc filmmakers have such incredible, and this is about doc filmmakers, but have such incredible desire to learn about things that they'll make one doc about dolphins and then some other totally different category. ⁓ Right, exactly. And instead of thinking about maybe working in the same lane,

Madelyn (18:58)
The Miami Dolphins, yeah.

Adam Neuhaus (19:07)
for more than one project back to back.

So that when you're building the audience, you're almost deepening your relationship across multiple projects. And so now not only are you building community, but maybe there's a brand in that community that then needs a commercial made and you're a natural fit because you understand that community, you've been in that community. So thinking about the community building as a way to hedge your career, as a way to create, you know, sustainable pathways for your skill set as opposed

Madelyn (19:33)
Mm.

Adam Neuhaus (19:38)
to like we made this thing in this one realm now we just throw that out and look for another story and start building again. That feels like a challenging way to go through your career that type of zigzag pattern unless you can get those types of commissions.

Madelyn (19:51)
It's a really good point because you do live in that world, that particular world for years of your life. So being able to leverage the skill set, the research you put in, you know, to double down on that vertical for that content is really, really smart. You started Newhouse Ideas a couple of years ago. You went off on your own. You created this sort of consulting company.

I want to know what you were constantly observing in pitches that made you go, okay, like I want to step out here and help people bridge the gap and try to make it across some of these like challenges and obstacles that I'm seeing.

Adam Neuhaus (20:31)
Yeah.

Well, I don't think it was like a one to one. I think it was the path led me there. mean, it's certainly when I left ESPN, there were a bunch of projects that I thought were really amazing. And so I put those together and tried to take those out and honestly, like had a really hard time selling those things. The market for sports stocks kind of like really at that moment got a little bit tighter and a little bit harder to sell through. And so that had me starting to think about, well, what am I actually

trying to build here. And one of the things that was really interesting to me was as I was watching all the creator economy stuff and thinking about relationships to audiences and all the things I've been talking about with ways to connect to community. And so one of the projects that I did sell through was a puzzle podcast. like, so, you know, making a podcast is one thing, but what it really was, was I saw a whole category.

in puzzles. And I saw really the opportunity to build a brand where I owned part of the relationship with the community that I could build with them, that I could start with a podcast and then make a doc and then make a series and then make a product and then do a live event. And so that was very exciting to me to see the possibility of growing a relationship and finding ways to have storytelling exist across mediums. So that was certainly a part of it. And then because of my experience,

of taking out a bunch of projects that I thought were really great and not getting them sold. I decided to write about that on LinkedIn and that's where the non-fiction hot list was created. you know, I assumed that I was one producer with 15 projects that I thought were really good and I thought there'd be others and

immediately when I wrote the post, people raised their hands, we brought together an amazing group of volunteers, and we co-created this thing, and it just showed me that there so many good projects that were out there, and that actually the buyers had...

Yes, they've ordered less and they also got risk averse to their detriment and that there was a lot of just like real wins sitting there in plain sight, at least to me. And so we felt like we could be of service to the community by just highlighting those projects and championing them. And so as I was going through that process, talking to truly hundreds of filmmakers and creators,

being in the mix, hearing where there are pain points, understanding what the market was like from my own perspective. That's what kind of led me to the idea of doing some more consulting along the way. And just that there are more definitions of success that exist now than there previously were. Your definition doesn't have to be selling your project to the biggest streamer. It could be getting lots of people to see it. It could be, you know, having a deep connection to the community in which you're making it.

So I just saw all these things. And then again, this kind of cross-pollination across making one thing, but then having to create community using other tools and finding ways to maybe sell a variety of products off of stuff. That stuff seemed really interesting to me. And so it was an evolution upon leaving. It was first like, let me see if I can sell TV shows. And you know.

to mixed results and have a couple of things going, but also very hard to do. And then it opened up in some of these other categories

for people who speak about the industry, it's horrible, is that like, know, wherever you put your attention is what's gonna grow. And so if you are only speaking in the negative, I talked to people who were at Sundance last year and they said you went to the filmmaking panels and it was like gloom and whatever. And then you went to the creator panels and they're like, it's the best time ever. Like, it's just fascinating to think like those worlds are so close together.

Like those are just other sides of a coin. And so there has to be some new ways to think about getting wins on both sides of the.

Madelyn (24:20)
Absolutely. You got to go where the party is. When you, when we talk about pitching specifically, I want to know because whether it's for, whether it's for a show, you're, have such an entrepreneurial mindset spirit, like you can position a show or you can position a

product or a podcast, but it's kind of all the same thing, right? But when you're hearing a pitch, do you sort of have an immediate red flag?

Adam Neuhaus (24:44)
Yeah, I think the immediate red flag is if the people pitching don't know their project or world enough. So I always tell people if you have an idea you're putting together, you should probably spend 10 to 20 hours researching the other things that are even semi-close to the thing and then watching those so that if I'm hearing a pitch and I'm like, that sounds like a thing I saw before, how is yours different? You need to be like, I saw that. Here's why ours is different.

Like here's why the timing is right for this. Like just understanding all of that. I, yeah, I think it's just like a deep understanding of your own pitch is something that I think can be lacking. I think sometimes the phrase like let's throw it against the wall and see what sticks, which I just like, what is that phrase? What are we throwing against the wall? Like is it slot? Yeah, it's like, it's gross. Like no.

Madelyn (25:31)
Spaghetti like

Adam Neuhaus (25:35)
So I think understanding, under-baked development, where it's like, hey, have you thought about an idea like this? And it's like, well, maybe, but that's not a pitch. Like, what have you done to really distinguish what you have? And so if it's not based on access, if it's just truly a historical doc idea that you have, like, what else have you brought to that besides the kind of framing of the idea? And so that type of...

prep of people who've really kind of gone through it and have those things. That's the kind of first red flag that I'm always searching for.

Madelyn (26:11)
Makes a lot of sense. A simple cursory IMDB search will do a lot for you. But it's what there is.

Adam Neuhaus (26:18)
And it's hard, it's hard because there's so much content being made now and

now there's so much digital content being made. But again, it's like start on YouTube, start on the internet, start on IMDB and like you'll at least get to, you know, 90 % of stuff that's similar.

Madelyn (26:34)
Great, do a little digging. On the other side of that coin, there, what kind of immediately grabs your attention and makes you lean in?

Adam Neuhaus (26:40)
I think for me it's a combination of an idea that's very easily explainable. And what I mean by easily explainable, I almost mean it touches a primal part of being human. So something that like feels very fresh and unexpected and very human. That's the first thing. if that, and I truly believe it's hard to make something simple.

or it's hard to get to the essence of something. So when somebody can really pierce through and say, here's a pitch on this. So that's the first part. And the second part is who's pitching. you know, I'm just a big fan of other creative talent and of directors. So a lot of times when I do get a pitch from somebody, I'll go back and watch their work. I will see whether they can, whether I believe that they can.

match the pitch to what they're doing. And so when you have that magical scenario where somebody has found something real and primal and human, and they have a particular voice and style that they want to bring to it, that becomes just like the one plus one equals three scenario. So those are the things that I mostly looked at. And I think for people who are earlier in their career, if you have less of a track record, that's okay, especially in nonfiction.

It just means then like, wanna see how much work and research you've put in. So you can be a nobody and barely have any credits, but I wanna see that you have uncovered every rock and whatever. And if it's somebody who's my favorite documentary director who's made a bunch of stuff, they might just be able to say a log line to me. And like, I know that they have delivered that stuff. So wherever you are on the continuum, that's what you should be thinking about.

Madelyn (28:17)
All right.

Well, and partnering is huge. you know, and that's, mean, as an that's what we do is like finding the right partners and the right visionaries for a that passion and kind of singular vision is always so attractive to a project and to a story.

What is your litmus test for a good idea versus a great idea? And is it even that simple?

Adam Neuhaus (28:47)
Yeah, it's not simple, first of all. There's so much of it. And for me, it's a two-part question. So it's a combination of my gut and my mind. And so my gut is something that, again, like...

Madelyn (28:49)
No.

Adam Neuhaus (29:02)
How does it land with me as a human being? How does it feel like something fresh and unexpected? Does it build on my 20 plus years taking pitches and understanding the marketplace and seeing stuff work? So there's this kind of gut thing that I'm always there. But recently, and I guess not recently, in every stop of my development, I've worked to create a rubric or a criteria of which I posted on LinkedIn. And so for every job or for what I'm looking for, there's a different rubric.

And so lately what I've done is create a kind of list of 20 questions for myself around like new house ideas projects. And so some of them are about the story themselves. Some of them are about the role in which I can bring my best gifts to that. Some of it is about the financial upside. Some of it is about whether it's just a world that I like. So, you know, I created my own. And so what I'll do is take a project and I will answer those 20 questions.

with like a one through five or like a 4.2 and at the end of those 20, see what the score is. And so I have my gut reaction to it and then I run it through and then the question becomes like, if it scores an 85, what do you do?

That means it's like pretty good. Like, so then I look at like where it's falling short and it's like, is that something that I can affect or is it actually a B project? And the hardest thing in my career, and I think for a lot of development people and that I'm only still learning and I'm still not great at is can I lay down the B project in order to keep the space in my life open and the energetic field open for an A to arrive.

I used to think like, oh, it wouldn't matter. I'll have a bunch of Bs and I'll work on it and the A will arrive anyway. And now I don't quite believe that. I believe you need to create the space in order to like attract that idea to me, to whatever you're trying to do. And so those B or B plus projects are the ones you talk yourself into. And I have spent a career talking myself into those projects. So like, oh, it's a B, B plus, but maybe I could sell it to this one place or.

Maybe if we made it perfectly, it'll be an A or all of those things. And I think a lot of times it's just a B project. And our lives are all about opportunity costs. And so the time you spend on something is the time you're not spending on something else. And so I had posted about one of the rubrics that I used for sports documentaries. By the way, I make them up all the time. So it's a living and breathing document.

but that one was around stakes and world setting and characters and the director. And so it was done with a very documentary lens. But again, I have a variety of rubrics that I use for all different types of projects in terms of evaluating. And it's only just because it scores a 91 or an 85, it's just another piece of data for me to make that decision. And the decision in the end is a mix between my gut.

and this kind of objective mind criteria. And then I make a decision whether to spend my precious energy on it. And frequently I have failed that test for myself and I've taken on things that scored too low, but I talked myself into, or you can get really excited about something and the possibility of it. And so again, laying down pretty good projects is maybe the hardest thing to do because you're like, it's sitting here, it's in my hand.

This A project doesn't exist yet. How do I know it will even arrive? And that's the kind of faith and trust that's sometimes needed to wait for it.

Madelyn (32:42)
I had to like just take a moment because...

There's so much I want to say. in development, it's a volume game, right? And so you want to keep certainly your A's, but like your B's just like, keep it going, keep it going through the ringer. right. It reminds me of the creative act by Rick Rubin when he's talking about, if, if have you read it?

sort of not trying to be this like generator of constant ideas, but instead try to generate openness and free up energy. And that completely shifted the way I think about my creative process. But you just totally like, I feel so convicted right now if it's not adding up, if there's no amount of like additional characters, stakes, anything you can eke out to

really push it across the line, especially in this market, you gotta let it go. And it is hard because in nonfiction specifically, just the level of personal investment into the project is difficult, but that is a really insightful piece of advice because preserving your energy, I think is so important.

Adam Neuhaus (33:45)
Yes,

The other thing is that...

having lots of ideas can be a good pathway to finding a good idea. So it's not that it's one or the other. It's just like how and when do you use them to create that. So again, I agree with you, like creating that space, I think that's the better way to have work that is truly breakthrough is to have that. And I believe in brainstorming sessions, the more ideas you come up with is the best path to finding a really great idea.

But it's hard at companies, they want you to have lots of ideas to again, throw against the wall or whatever it is. And so it could be challenging dichotomy for sure.

Madelyn (34:17)
guess.

Absolutely, yeah, balancing on that tight rope. We talked about this a little bit, but you can have an incredible project. It can score 100 on your rubric, but if it's not positioned properly, it can end up in that graveyard. So talk to me about project positioning and why that's so critical to the development and pitching process.

Adam Neuhaus (34:46)
I think that's like really your materials. So are the materials telling the story that you really needed to tell? And people try to make this a formula like, do I need a sizzle for this? it's like, what is the project telling you is the best foot forward? think having a very strong deck makes a lot of sense, just has as much takeaway as needed. think understanding how to pitch in a room where

A lot of people, I would just be floored sometimes when I was at ESPN where people would take the entire allotted time of the meeting to run us through their deck and not have us be able to offer any thoughts or ideas. When really it should be like, all right, I'm gonna send and have a takeaway deck that has a bunch of stuff. I'm gonna really go for the first 15 minutes and like lay out what I'm thinking. And then I'm gonna be quiet and hear their thoughts and hear and be able to have a dialogue.

Madelyn (35:36)
Right.

Adam Neuhaus (35:39)
And so that was always shocking to again, some of the positioning is how you bring it forward. But yeah, if you have great material for a sizzle, then make a sizzle. If it's just a deck, then make sure that deck is very clear, very easy to read, very comprehensive and thorough. It does not mean it has to be long. I think also there's an epidemic of like, you don't need a 45 slide deck. You might have one if you're...

if they're already interested and they want really a lot more information, but if you're making a pitch and it's sales material and also understanding who you're pitching to. mean, let us, let us pour one out for the poor development executives and all these buyers who are taking hundreds and thousands of pitches back to back to back and really just trying to keep them all straight. And so can you have a little grace for the person you're pitching to? Can you make your pitch?

Madelyn (36:20)
Yeah.

Adam Neuhaus (36:35)
Edible for them in that way like in an easy for them to consume way so that you allow them their thoughts Which might be jaded and cynical and allow you to then tell them why they're wrong and why this is different and why this needs to be made so again thinking about the entire process holistically And how you're pitching and who you're pitching and what materials to me that's that's the positioning of it And then the other part is just truly

Understanding the marketplace which is just watching if you don't have the mandates. That's fine. You don't need them I don't get the mandates so like I go more with like stuff that I just think is interesting to me But it's like are you watching the stuff that's coming out if you're pitching a true crime thing to Netflix Watch the last ten true crime things that are been on Netflix like really have an understanding of what you're pitching into Especially at the place that you're pitching

Madelyn (37:28)
Yes, absolutely. Are they green lighting three-part series? Are they green lighting features? Have they already, like, you really don't have to have the mandates to kind of see what's going on. Also keep up with like, what is not getting renewed? Like, what is getting canceled? That's a whole other thing is they, a lot of successful series just don't get renewed. And so ensure that you're sort of up to date on all those pieces.

that you said poor went out for the execs early in my career when I had no relationships, I was brand new in the industry and I would secure a pitch. Obviously I wanted to sell the idea, but my kind of number one motive was I want to just be the best part of their day. Like how can I make this pitch compelling? How can I just give them a break because they don't stop and they see a million of these things. And that was sort of a mandate for me. When you're looking at

the current development landscape, like bird's eye, million foot view. What are some trends that you're noticing?

Adam Neuhaus (38:27)
I don't think any of this will be groundbreaking. mean, I think true crime is the fastest way to sell something. A big IP is the way to sell something and deep access. are the things that are, those three things are, think, taking up the majority of the buying stuff that's happening. I think my only hope for the industry, or my hope for the buyers is that...

The buyers hopefully can set aside a certain amount of their to take some creative risks. They can go down the middle with all the data that they want on traditional stuff. But if they had figured it out already, then they really wouldn't need more. There's still a lot of stuff that doesn't work. And it's like, well, it didn't work, but what did your algorithm say? But I would just wish that 15 % of their budget or,

one out of every 10 projects, they would truly just like make it a human gut scenario because that's how you create new categories and new shows and stuff that is just...

you know, the algorithm's only gonna be able to take in things that it's already seen. It's not necessarily gonna be able to tell you about something that's never been made before. I'm not saying, I think, you know, it's a smart strategy if you know what your audience is gonna want on your platform and to order more of that. I'm not saying that's never going away, that genie's out of the bottle, but I do wish there'd be a little bit more trust to like take a gamble on some stuff.

And maybe if you talk to the development execs, they would say, we're already doing that. We already have stuff. But it certainly doesn't feel that way ⁓ to the people who are pitching.

Madelyn (39:58)
Yeah.

I agree. I'm hoping that we see more risks because there are those breakthrough, I mean, in nonfiction and in fiction, like inscripted, unscripted, there's so many things that break through that are unexpected that like just caught on because they're those real human stories. They have the stakes, but they didn't have the star. but they just worked. So yeah, I hope to see more of that. So, okay, let's dive into the nonfiction hot list. Like I said, we talked about it earlier.

I remember seeing this ripple across my LinkedIn earlier this year and it was giving like the blacklist for the nonfiction industry, right? Is that really what you were going for? And talk to me about how this was inspired and how this came together.

Adam Neuhaus (40:43)
Well, it was inspired by, again, the fact that I had taken out 15 projects in 2024 and hadn't sold any of them. Stuff that I thought was really amazing. so, yeah, totally. I mean, listen, you're in development, you get used to that, but.

Madelyn (40:51)
pain.

Ha

ha!

Adam Neuhaus (40:55)
So I just felt like, there must be a lot of people. And so I wrote a post on it and I used the blacklist as a euphemism. I'm a huge fan of Franklin Leonard. I've been following it since its inception. Like it was truly and still is groundbreaking and what they've created. just also it's been around 20 years. Like it's truly. And so that's kind of why I referenced it as a shorthand for people to understand that. And I feel, I felt and still feel a little bit like the documentary world is a little bit insular.

And so the idea of making it nonfiction, opening it up to series and podcasts and docs felt like something. And I wondered if other people had slates like mine that were really good. And so a lot of people raised their hand off the original LinkedIn posts. And I just started having conversations. The people who reached out, I had conversations and people said, I'd love to help on this. I don't even know what you're building, but I'd love to do it. And so I just started gathering people. And I think the thing I want to remind people is you don't need permission.

to start doing things. And from the very beginning, we just thought, how can we have not just, how can we make this thing happen, but then also have the way that we're doing it embody the change that we want to see in the industry. So this idea that we've all come to believe that everything is supposed to take forever. Like, when did we all start believing that? And so from the day we announced it, from the day I wrote the post on LinkedIn, 101 days later, we put out the list.

Madelyn (42:14)
forever.

Adam Neuhaus (42:21)
Like we really did. The other thing was like, when did it become okay to just like have bad manners in our industry?

like getting back to people or like being reasonable with people. Like it just feels so strange to me that people can't have honest, hard conversations about stuff. And so we got back to people. We like sent emails. We like followed up. We like said we were going to do a thing and then did a thing. And so we put this call out for a submission and to be honest, I didn't know what was going to come in. And I thought might be a bit more early career type people who are sending it in and

We got 640 projects in like six weeks and it was like Emmy winners and Oscar winners and like all types of like fascinating people. was like, wow, there's a lot of built up, built up issues here and a lot of projects that were just sitting there that again, the market had said no, but felt like we're really great stuff. So then we ran a film festival style curation program. We did, you know,

Madelyn (42:59)
Wow.

Adam Neuhaus (43:18)
multiple views and made sure people like every project was seen by multiple people and graded and then not just graded in a numbers way, but then conversation every week. And so we really went through this process and we curated 23. And instead of just kind of patting ourselves on the back, we said like, we're going to champion these projects. We're going to put out a live link that has all of the things that these projects need, because maybe the people who receive these will have a

you know, maybe you 250,000 to finish your project, but really you have like, maybe there's a post house that can offer one in-kind service for it. And so now you need 150K instead of 250K and that creates more leverage for you. So the idea is how do put the artists at the center of this? How do we publish this list of which I've never really seen a document of 23 projects that had all of their sales materials altogether. That took incredible trust by the filmmaking teams.

to include that stuff so that people could see what they had that got us interested in it. And then also instead of just looking for the buyers to write the one check and solve your issues, looking to your community, figuring out how you might get these things done, that proved to be incredibly powerful for us. So what's been great is the projects were on the list and now we've been pushing them along and helping them. And now we're having outcomes that are starting to happen.

Madelyn (44:15)
Yes.

Adam Neuhaus (44:41)
And that's been so gratifying. Projects getting into very, very big festivals, podcasts being picked up by traditional spots. And so it wasn't like we put out the list and we're just hoping that HBO would come and buy all of them. Again, we thought there's just like lots of different ways for success to happen, but we are feeling very confident about the curation that we did and that these projects are finding real homes and

because of the community that we've built. The Instagram has become a real place where people can like share information and get answers to what they're doing. And recently, you know, we still have been pushing the 23 projects, but one of the recent initiatives that we've been doing, and we haven't really talked about this externally, what we decided to do was all the projects that applied to the Nonfiction Hotlist and did not get it. We decided to offer them,

a feedback session, a feedback session in a, that we are calling Fresh Eyes. And so we sent this out to people and 120 projects signed up for this initiative. And we said, okay, well, we are going to offer these meetings, but we're also going to make sure that it's an energetic exchange. So again, in the nature of the way that we go about doing something is part of what makes the ethos of the nonfiction.

Madelyn (45:34)
Wow.

Adam Neuhaus (46:00)
So first of all, when was the last time you applied to something, didn't get it, and then were offered an opportunity? Like that felt pretty rare and uncommon. And so then we've been doing these meetings with two or three members of the Hot List and these projects, and it has been one of the most inspiring things that I've had this year. I mean, on one hand, we could have easily highlighted another 50 or 75 projects besides the 23 that we ended up doing. And so we've been helping projects and projects because you're on your individual creator journey.

Madelyn (46:06)
Never. Yeah.

Adam Neuhaus (46:30)
It's so hard and you're just trying to like marketing or distribution or production stuff. It's so multifaceted. so being able to just offer support, a kind ear, an introduction to somebody else. So this, this fresh eyes initiative has been wildly exciting for us and inspiring. And then as an energetic exchange, we asked that people, if they had a meeting and they had a good experience to create a post about it.

and to post it in whatever way they want, or to just send the hot list to 10 people who haven't seen it before. So again, it's just this idea of creating regenerative communities, of creating circular economies, of helping each other as the artists help each other get their stuff made and not just fork over all of our rights to whatever place is paying the most money. So it is...

Madelyn (46:56)
Mm.

Adam Neuhaus (47:21)
been a wonderful thing. have built a lot of community and we are certainly planning on doing a version two at some point next year.

Madelyn (47:28)
Wow, what a refreshingly generous take on the industry, truly. Offering feedback sessions in exchange for a post. So much of that is kind of what you never get. And it's a really beautiful thing. It's such a cool thing that you've built. When you were sort of building the jury, the members of the hot list, what perspectives and experiences were important for you to be able to judge these projects?

Adam Neuhaus (47:56)
Yeah, I mean, think my whole career has been across lots of different mediums and I've been involved in so many different storytelling communities from film festival stuff to Brown Girls Doc Mafia. you know, I think the idea was was always. I think sometimes naturally diversity will emerge. It didn't have to be like it was always a thing we were keeping in mind, making sure that people from.

all different types, diversity of jobs. So filmmakers, executives, producers, that type of thing. And then different human life experiences, like having people from different walks of life be a part of it. But that's really just my community. That's like part of the doc community. it was also people who raised their hand.

who said, have time, I wanna commit to this. And again, a natural diversity and inclusivity emerged from it. So I wasn't too strict about it. You didn't have to be like a documentary person. We even had a scripted person in the mix. And I thought that perspective was wildly helpful to have just again, new eyes on non-fiction stuff. it all kind of emerged and in the process, we allowed people to like grade the things, but then we allowed everybody to be like,

Madelyn (48:55)
Absolutely.

Adam Neuhaus (49:06)
If there's a project that was graded, that you graded high, but someone else graded low, you can pull that into the next round if you really believe on it. And like in our communication, like tell us why it's really important, have more people view it. So we offered this kind of like, it wasn't a scientific process. We had rigor to the process by grading and having multiple people view it, but we also made it very human centric. And you know, again, the other idea was like,

Madelyn (49:14)
Hmm.

That's.

Adam Neuhaus (49:33)
we featured 23 projects, it's hard to push 23 projects forward. That's also a challenge. so at some times we're like, we should do 15. And sometimes it's like, we should do 50. Like, why not? Like, what's the hurt? And so we had to kind of figure it all in real time. And the most amazing thing is we had this really great group of 25, 30 people who truly donated hundreds of hours of their life to like help make this happen and to do it in a way that felt like a breath of fresh air.

Madelyn (50:00)
That's so incredible. I can't wait to see what the next, what the 2026 hot list looks like. I mean, you're such a big thinker. I know that you're already thinking beyond how the first iteration went. Obviously you want more submissions, more talent, more people on the jury, but like, what, I mean, what else do you have in mind for this community?

Adam Neuhaus (50:19)
I

think about a different reframe. It's like how many projects can we help actually get made? It's not like hey look at us. We're the hot list look how important they are Look how many submissions we got but it said how can we better serve the projects that we do select? How can we better serve people throughout the process of it? And so we are gonna do a version two and like you said I am trying to figure out we held this one together with passion and duct tape and By doing it a second time. We're not gonna be able to do that. We're gonna have to create

Madelyn (50:22)
Mm.

Mm.

Adam Neuhaus (50:47)
some more systems and with systems comes some bureaucracy and some stuff and it's just the nature of the beast. So how do we grow in a very, just in a very considerate way? And we've had people reach out and we might have some other projects that will emerge before we do version two. Big hint here. We have some stuff that's coming and people who are seeing what we can do from a curation standpoint. And so we're hopeful to have some other things that kind of.

allow us to build this in real time and amend it in real time and again, think about less about this many submissions, this many thing, but how can we just make it more human? How can we have people who interact with the brand feel like it's really different than everything else that's out there? That stuff to me is more important, the kind of ethos of it. We talk a lot about one of the phrases that we use is how do we paint the back of the fence?

So it's a little bit like what Steve Jobs did, like making the inside of the iPhone's really beautiful, even though no one would ever see it. And it's the same thing. Like how do we do things that are not frontward facing, but that imbue the project with really good energy and like let that kind of come through. And so always looking for those small little things, especially the things that cost zero dollars, manners, transparency, getting back to people.

all of those things that just kind of make people feel heard, makes them feel like they're a part of something, and let that be the energy and the wave that we ride to whatever it turns into.

Madelyn (52:14)
That's wonderful. Really, really admirable. I'm so excited. What's the best way for people to keep up with the hot list? Is it Instagram? Is it LinkedIn?

Adam Neuhaus (52:22)
Yeah, I

think Instagram, LinkedIn, and then nonfictionhotlist.com. So people should look at the list and that's on the website. The Instagram is like an amazing resource. So it's meant to be used. It's not just meant for us to be posting. Like if you have a thing you need, like get involved. I've been so impressed by what we built there. And then LinkedIn is where it started. So we're going to continue to try to build that out and have that be a place where great updates come.

Madelyn (52:28)
Amazing.

Amazing. I'll make sure to link it in the show notes as well. Okay, we're going to wrap it up with just a few questions. I know these are, I'm going to say rapid fire, but I don't know if there's any way to do rapid fire here, but I want to know your take on the following things. Sizzle reels.

Adam Neuhaus (53:06)
Yes, I say if you can make it, if there's a reason to make it and you have something that needs to be seen, make it, yeah. I'm a yes. I think like you should aim for three to seven minutes.

Madelyn (53:07)
Yeah

How long is too long?

Networking. Is there a right way?

Adam Neuhaus (53:24)
Yeah, the right way is not thinking about it linearly. Like I go to this thing and then I get a job. Think about like reframe the term into like community building or like just connecting with your colleagues. Like that's like being a supportive. So don't think about what you can get out of it as your primary thing. what emerges from it be the way.

Madelyn (53:49)
I love that. Taking out a project more than once.

Adam Neuhaus (53:52)
I think sure, if something especially has changed or enough time, I would just like, like be really clear with yourself why you really think this is, this can work and, don't try to hide it. think like owning up to it and just like, making sure the materials are up to date and just making sure it's like fresh or that there's something new. And yeah, I think just not hiding it is the key.

Madelyn (54:15)
100 % agree. How often should you, we talked about the communication thing here, how often should you follow up with someone who has your project, with a buyer?

Adam Neuhaus (54:25)
I think you should give a buyer three weeks and then follow up. And then I think like every two and a half, three weeks until you hear back is like fair. And I think when I follow up with people, I try not to make them feel bad about it. So in the tone of the email, I try to make it positive, like pleasantly persistent is the way. And again, I'm all for manners. So I think.

it's important to have manners on both sides of the table about how you follow up with people. I change the subject line to be like follow up and just like be very considerate and I almost try to forget the emails maybe that they ignored and just try to like imagine that it's a fresh follow up.

Madelyn (55:03)
You're

Sure, love that. Canva decks.

Adam Neuhaus (55:09)
Yeah, I'm using it for sure. Yeah.

Madelyn (55:11)
Same,

I really like it. like so much more user friendly than Keynote. I think my fear is that they're all seeing the same thing though, like the same formatting and the same design. And so that's where I'm like getting a little like, no. ⁓

Adam Neuhaus (55:24)
I don't think format and design

matters that much. mean, it's like, what are you putting in there? That's really what it is, you know?

Madelyn (55:28)
Yeah,

yeah. And then I think we all know how you feel about this, but I'm going to ask you how you feel about it and how you deal with it. Ghosting, just not hearing back, not getting any feedback at all.

Adam Neuhaus (55:37)
Yeah, no,

I believe that it's okay to have hard conversations. It's okay for a network exec to be like, it's just not a fit. I think people just want to close the loop on stuff. I took a lot of pride on it when I was at ESPN, of always getting back to people and giving them as much information as I could to tell them and not have it be something very generic. But yeah, I'm anti-ghosting across the board.

you know, put on your big pants and like look somebody in the eye and just say it's not a fit for right now and close the loop. And I think that's just like good manners.

Madelyn (56:15)
Yes, thank you. Even ghosting never okay, not even during the month of October. Okay, last thing I'll ask you, what are you watching right now that you've really been impressed with in the, in, you know, in the nonfiction sort of doc world lately? What have you really been loving?

Adam Neuhaus (56:19)
There you go.

Great question. I've been a bit more on a scripted push lately. So, I mean, I love Slow Horses. I love that show on Apple TV. I'm a big fan of that show. And I'm excited to just like start seeing the festival docs for this fall that I have not seen yet. So, it's not a clear answer of one.

Madelyn (56:33)
Ooh, well I'll listen to that too, I wanna know.

Adam Neuhaus (56:50)
one great thing, but I'm always excited about the fall because all the new stuff comes out. So ready to be a consumer.

Madelyn (56:56)
right before awards season. It's our time, baby. I love it. Well, Adam, this was such an incredibly insightful, really refreshing conversation. I appreciate it so much. Thanks for all the work you're doing in the industry. Thank you for the transparency and generosity that you're bringing. And just really excited to continue to follow you and obviously stay up to date on the hot list and all of the success and projects that'll come out of it. So thanks so much for joining me.

Adam Neuhaus (57:21)
Enjoyed

the conversation and thanks for amplifying. Appreciate it.

Madelyn (57:24)
Thanks.

Madelyn (57:30)
How good was that? I was taking notes the entire time I was interviewing. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with Adam. You can go to the links and show notes to find out where you can follow Adam, the nonfiction hot list and stay up to date with all of those things. And you should submit your own project when the hot list comes out in 2026. One thing that I loved about this conversation was what Adam was talking about with the many definitions of success. And there are so many and you can create your own.

hope you guys have a wonderful Friday. And we will see you next week on Halloween. Don't forget to like, subscribe, follow, rate, review, all the things,

and we'll see you next time on the Unscripted Vials.