Derek Helwig (00:00)
there really is an audacity about race I mean that in the best way possible where once Phil yells go

that's it, you can't stop the race.

Madelyn Cunningham (00:14)
Hey everyone, happy Friday. Welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted entertainment industry, bringing you candid, casual, compelling conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today we have a friend and former long time producer on Amazing Race On to talk all about the complex logistics of producing the show.

He also teaches a course on reality television as a professor. So cool. And it's also an SVP of development. So there's a lot of different perspective here that he shares. We spend a lot of time on Amazing Race

He's got a lot of incredible industry insights, opinions, well traveled. He's got travel tips in here from the hundreds and hundreds of flights on Amazing Race. We answer some fan Reddit questions when it comes to Amazing Race. It's just a juicy, really great episode. Incredibly excited for you to listen. Here is my chat with Derek Helwig.

Madelyn Cunningham (01:16)
Derek, welcome to the Unscripted Files. How you doing?

Derek Helwig (01:19)
great to be here and I'm doing great.

Madelyn Cunningham (01:21)
Doing good. You're over on the West Coast, right?

Derek Helwig (01:23)
Yeah, yeah, based in the LA area.

Madelyn Cunningham (01:25)
Okay, have you always been in the LA area?

Derek Helwig (01:28)
I was born and raised in Sacramento. I am Sacramento through and through. Obviously a huge Sacramento Kings fan. But yeah, so I grew up there and then I bounced around a bit and then ended up in Southern California for going to school and graduated from Chapman University.

Madelyn Cunningham (01:41)
you now teach a course on reality television at Chapman, which we will talk about in this discussion. When I ever hear someone from Sacramento and Sacramento Pride, I always think about Lady Bird. Did you see that movie? Right? How accurate was it?

Derek Helwig (01:45)
I do.

yeah, of course, we've seen it and the the film commission puts out

I'm gonna reserve my judgment cuz I might get hate mail But Yeah, there there there were some shots in there that I was like, alright Well if you're doing this quasi period piece that actually didn't exist there when you're you're shooting So I'm gonna leave it at that. I'm out. Yeah, but I mean obviously love what Greta was able to do and bring it to Greta actually went to

Madelyn Cunningham (02:00)
Okay, yeah, you can't I'm sorry. I will not take any ladybird hate but

interesting. Okay, okay.

Derek Helwig (02:19)
there was a collective of schools that were in the Catholic, like the Catholic schools of Sacramento. I went to one of them, I went to the co-ed one, she went to the all girls one, which is obviously Lady Bird's based on. So was kind of, it was cool to see like that world of it and obviously show Sacramento off and like that bridge that they drive through in the opening scene where she just jumps out.

Madelyn Cunningham (02:28)
Okay, yes.

Yeah.

Derek Helwig (02:39)
Yeah, that was, I drive over that bridge all the time. So it's, yeah, I, I, it's great to see it. But yeah, there was those little things that was like, that's not a true Sacramento. That wouldn't be there. So.

Madelyn Cunningham (02:42)
I love that.

Sure. Right, right. that little, yeah. She's, think

she called it a love letter to Sacramento. So, that's so cool. Okay. So you, so you ended up now you're in Southern California. You've been in the entertainment industry, the unscripted industry for quite a while now. You had a long stint on Amazing Race, which we will dive into. You're now the SVP of development at Xpedition. But I want to hear really quickly, you know,

Derek Helwig (02:53)
Yeah, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (03:11)
We've chatted before and you have this amazing story about sort of breaking into the industry. So talk to me a little bit about how you got interested in this industry. And then you got to tell me, you got to tell the audience that story. It's just so good.

Derek Helwig (03:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

For sure. I tell my students this all the time too, just because I think it's, you have to think of new ways of getting into this industry and how you break in. I think everyone's heard of like the Steven Spielberg story where he just like took an office, right? I know a lot. Now, yeah, now they have a thing called security, so you can't do that. But yeah, so at the time, I'm date myself a little bit here too, because at the time, you know, I was graduating, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had been working, you know, my degree was in film production. So I think in like most schools, you think you're gonna go into scripted, into scripted space. So I had just gotten,

Madelyn Cunningham (03:26)
I love it.

Ugh, the legend. Yeah, just took up residence.

Right?

Derek Helwig (03:54)
a internship at Linda Ope's productions. She actually just passed away a couple months ago. But it was on the Paramount lot, which I was like, this is amazing, I get to be on the lot. And there was the magic about being on a lot. If you've ever worked on a lot, there really is a magic about being able to go through that.

Madelyn Cunningham (04:04)
Absolutely.

Derek Helwig (04:08)
this whole Hollywood experience. But I had been working in development for scripted. And I would say my experience there doing that was more like the movie Devil Wears Prada where like I was being used to like as runs, right? I learned what Hollywood was because I was driving around everywhere, not being able to make left turns because they didn't have left turn hand signals at the time and they kind of don't still. But that's what my experience kind of was. So at night I would take like.

these scripts home with me and to get my hours in and just kind of get more of a hands-on experience. And I'm reading these scripts. I'm like, man, these are like, these are supposed to be like the hot scripts. Everyone's trying to get these things. And I'm reading these things and I'm just like, these are terrible. I mean, I know I'm just a reader and I'm a senior in college. Like, what do I know? But I know for a fact this hot scripts about the invention of the electric chair was never going to get made because half the movie is about them killing dogs and like testing it on dogs.

Madelyn Cunningham (04:59)
Right.

Derek Helwig (05:00)
happened. So it was kind

Madelyn Cunningham (05:01)
God. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (05:01)
of a, it was kind of just a sad thing. like, man, I went to school to do this. Like this is, this is not cool. So I graduated and I was like, I, all I really want to do is I just studied abroad this semester before I lived in London for a while. And it's like, I really just want to find a way to combine my degree and travel and have somebody pay for it. So at the time, like my favorite show was Amazing Race.

Madelyn Cunningham (05:05)
Right, right.

Derek Helwig (05:23)
I was like, my goal is to get on that show. And I had applied to so many places, never heard back. And then I had faxed my resume in, just to date myself, I had faxed my resume in, two amazing race over and over over again. And I realized once I got a job there, why I wasn't getting called back is because like the fax machine was here. And I'm not even joking, the trash can was right underneath it.

Madelyn Cunningham (05:30)
Ha ha.

just right

in the-

Derek Helwig (05:42)
Right,

yeah, I'm sure it went right in there. yeah, so I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna take the bull by the horns. And so I looked up, because this is before IMDB, so you didn't know where a lot of things were. So I looked up where fan mail was being sent for the show. And so I wore brown shorts, a brown shirt, and I had a clipboard that had like a fake signature page on it, like places you can put your signature. And then I had a manila envelope that just said, Attention Production Manager. And I put my resume inside of there.

Madelyn Cunningham (05:52)
Right?

Derek Helwig (06:12)
And I drove there and I totally looked like, yeah, this guy probably works for UPS and gave it to the person that was at the desk. They probably should have just thrown away right then and there, but they didn't. And within two days I had my interview to work on Amazing Race. And I had no idea, like I quit my job.

with like 48 hours notice that I was working at. I had no idea what I was even being hired for. I was like, this could be anything. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. Turns out, of course, it was a PA job, but it did not matter to me at the time. And started off there and just got into it and, you know, ended up being there for working on the show. That was like season, technically halfway through season nine. I don't really count that one because it was just post at that time, which obviously is important thing. But, you know, it was not the whole time. But yeah, I ended up being there all the way through season.

Madelyn Cunningham (06:35)
It didn't matter.

Right.

Derek Helwig (06:57)
22 was my last season.

Madelyn Cunningham (06:59)
I love that story. You're right. It's just such a classic Hollywood industry story about really having to get creative and get a little ballsy with your approach. I just, I loved it so much. So did you, wait, did you reveal to the person that you were interviewing with that you did this?

Derek Helwig (07:02)
Yeah.

yeah, but we didn't actually talk about it until years after being in the show. And so, yeah, and so like they were just shocked. Like, how did we not know that story beforehand? I was like, well, I mean, I just, I was just happy to be here. I didn't really want to like brag about that story, but like, first of all, shocked that it actually worked.

Madelyn Cunningham (07:20)
Okay, love that.

No, it's incredible. think, now, looking at the job market now and how there is IMDB, there's, I don't know, it feels like the barrier to entry now is even more challenging, just because there's more, think, didn't even like, unless I didn't live in, I grew up in South Carolina, I didn't even know jobs and entertainment were a thing. So it's so interesting thinking of what is that like story?

Derek Helwig (07:44)
Yeah!

Madelyn Cunningham (07:55)
modern day? Is it sliding into the DMs? Like, what is it to live? Right?

Derek Helwig (07:56)
Yeah.

I think it is, I work with my

students a lot too. They come to me asking questions about how did they get in? And I try and help them out as much as I possibly can, whether it be through personal things where I think they might fit. If I hear there's an opening, I'll send it out to the rest of the group. I'll put it on our class thread. Hey, I'm hearing internships are being here, send me your resumes. So I think there is a lot of bit of that too, but I don't know what that necessarily is for this day and age. think you're right. I think it is sliding into DMs as best you can. I tell all my students use LinkedIn as much as you possibly can.

Madelyn Cunningham (08:20)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (08:26)
know who's gonna and like just because they're not writing you back doesn't mean you've done something wrong and you also need to target the right person too like if you're trying to get the head of the company or whatever it's not they're probably not gonna write you back but if you go for like that I always tell them like go for that coordinator level because because that's a someone who

Madelyn Cunningham (08:42)
Go for the coordinator, exactly. Go for the, maybe

the manager, like, yeah.

Derek Helwig (08:46)
Yeah, exactly. Like

as someone who's probably two, three years out of college and this might be the first time they're getting hit up and like there's no, we all have a little bit of ego in this industry, right? So they're like, oh, I've made it now. Someone's reaching out to me. And I think you're going to get a lot more response that way. So that's what I've been encouraging my students to do.

Madelyn Cunningham (08:54)
Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

that's a great, it's a great tip.

So you find yourself as a PA Amazing Race. This is your dream job. You're so excited to be there. Was it a lot different than you maybe thought it would be?

Derek Helwig (09:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You know, actually it was exactly like I knew I knew coming into it like, you know, you go to film school, you know what shooting is like, right? But like I was an office PA. So I think you just got used to being the first one in last one out. And so it didn't really it wasn't shocking on that stuff. It was to see the amount of like.

Madelyn Cunningham (09:17)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (09:26)
art department and stuff like that that went into it, just shipping. That was the biggest thing for me, shipping a lot of that art, stuff that couldn't be made in that country, that you're sending it out, or you're sending out all the clue boxes. Back when we used to do clue boxes more than time, we'd kind of change it while I was there, doing more, we called them indigenous clue boxes. But yeah, shipping all that stuff out, that was shocking to me to see how much there was involved with that. And then what was the shocking thing of just the amount of coordination and travel and just

Madelyn Cunningham (09:31)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right, that's right.

Derek Helwig (09:56)
I mean, it is a special breed of people who are able to do that show because of the coordination that goes into it.

Madelyn Cunningham (10:03)
I was actually watching today, just catching up, kind of like heating up before our conversation on season 18. Just randomly, I like chose it. And of course it's, I see Mike White and I'm watching White Lotus right now. So I'm like, this is amazing. But yes, I know. But these are complex logistics, know, research, travel, challenges, shipping. Some of it sexy, some of it not so much. so.

Derek Helwig (10:08)
Okay.

Yep. Mike and his dad were great. Yeah.

Sure, yeah, absolutely.

Madelyn Cunningham (10:28)
So

I know that you, your role evolved, right? You went from PA to what was Was it associate research producer or, mm-hmm, great, sure.

Derek Helwig (10:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I was a research producer after like three months of being a PA. So I was glad I have to be a PA for too long, but

I made it very clear. I think it was like day three, because where our office was in Marina Del Rey, was like this warehouse. And part of your job as a PA was just kind of doing a valet because we had to squeeze all those cars in there. like day three, realized like the line producer is like carrying this big heavy box. I'm like, well, I want to be getting her car anyway. So why don't I help her carry that box, introduce myself. And I planted the seed of like, she's like, oh, what do you do? And I was like, well, I at that.

at that point I'd already been developing shows. had meetings with Travel Channel at the time for doing travel shows. so I think that just kind of planted the seeds like, here's someone who's like really wants to move up. So I was in there for that long doing a PA, but then I ended up being a research producer for two seasons. I took a season off, only one season. I went back to England to get my grad degree. And then I came back as a field producer from season 14 all the way through.

Season 18 and then 19, I became a country producer. So what that means is you are basically assigned two countries that you do everything for the whole bit, which was great. I did that for the remainder of my time there.

Madelyn Cunningham (11:41)
It must be so satisfying to kind of have like the ownership over that. And I know behind you, you're watching this and not listening, you have like all these amazing relics and souvenirs from where you traveled. It's so cool to see. So.

Derek Helwig (11:45)
Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah. You can't even see

this wall or anything like that. I actually used to come home, especially if it was a summer race, would have like an quasi empty duffel bag. I'd have the bare minimum of stuff. And by the time I came home, I was just packing things and packing things in there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Madelyn Cunningham (12:04)
Yes, as you should, as you should. mean,

it's really such an iconic show and such a unique opportunity. I think it's so interesting. So let's get into these logistics. I mean, I think watching the show, most fans, most audiences can see, wow, like this is a lot of work. This is really complicated, but let's dive in. Walk us through what it takes to produce just a single leg.

Derek Helwig (12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (12:30)
of a race, things we may or may not think about.

Derek Helwig (12:30)
Sure.

Yeah, I mean, I'll say too, obviously, NDA, I can't say all these things, but I will say the very first thing that think that show comes down to, one is the creators of that show, Bertram and Elise, who created that show and have been with the show since the beginning. Bertram has this amazing mind, and I gave him all the credit in the world for what he's able to do. He'll come in, you know, and we had this giant map in what we called the War Room.

back when I was there, know they moved offices now, I'm assuming the map is still there. I remember putting the map up as a PA. It was just a giant map. he just, he remembers his travels of where he's gone. And even down to the level of like, I took this flight from there to there, so I know we can do that. So, and sure enough, he's right, you know, and...

Madelyn Cunningham (13:16)
I can't even remember what I had for dinner

last night. That's crazy.

Derek Helwig (13:17)
Right, exactly. So

he maps these out and like, and you know, hey, does this work? And obviously we to make sure works financially, logistically and all that kind of stuff. So that's the first step. And then a lot of his Bertram, like, and again, he has this really sharp mind where he would come in and he'd say to me, and he's like, hey, I want you to find this thing. And it's like, he tells me a country, he'll tell me the street or the area that it's in. He's like, take a left and you'll find this bakery there.

And it's like, sure enough, it's there, right? Like it was a really interesting thing to see like how sharp he is and how he does that. So yeah, and then, you know, I'll take it from the country producer level too, like we would get all these things, we get all the research with it, but a lot of times he would be like, I've always wanted to do this, I've always wanted to do that. Cause he has, you know, decades of experience being in these places and seeing these things that they come to life. yeah, so seeing the research come through. We'll add some things to it.

And then yeah, mean, then you go there, you look at these things, can this be done?

you come up with what these potentials are, see if they can be done. He leaves and then we, the U.S. the country producer will stay there and work out the logistics and that kind of thing. test everything. I will say what's great about the scouts was you, unlike when you're running the race where you may not be able to see a place. I mean, there were times I was in a country for 36 hours. So like that's my experience in Stockholm is, was cool. I was there for 36 hours. I had a beer and a burger and that cost me 50 bucks, right? Like that was it.

Madelyn Cunningham (14:37)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (14:41)
But yeah, you get to experience these things a little bit more and meet the people, build up those relationships, which is really important for that show with the local staff there and make sure it works. And then hopefully, you know, when you come back a couple months later, everything's set up and you've been working on it this entire time. And what's really amazing about.

try not to use that word when talking about the show but obviously it is but it is really cool like to see what you can do like you have all this prep and it comes down to this one day and there really is an audacity about race I mean that in the best way possible where once Phil yells go

that's it, you can't stop the race.

mean look, if they really needed to stop the race they would, but like, you just can't, you gotta go with it. And so there really is this amazing thing of like, being able to work so hard on something for so many months, and then teams are flying in, they do it, and done, and they go.

Like it's, and you don't have the second, you don't have a chance to have a second take. So I really think that is really, really cool that you don't get that on a lot of other shows. Obviously there's a lot of other things and documentaries and stuff like that, you don't have this running adrenaline rush that I think you get on other shows too.

Madelyn Cunningham (15:46)
Yeah, absolutely. You're exactly right. It must be so satisfying to, know, everything is won or lost in prep, but knowing you kind of have one shot and seeing it come together, see the teams handle it, like I'm sure it's that satisfying sense of adrenaline. I find it so interesting that really the...

Derek Helwig (15:52)
Yeah, totally.

Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (16:04)
The creator who you mentioned Bertram has such a passion for his own travels, his own interests. So you're telling me that really the mandates for locations, cultures, countries per season were really coming down from this person, their own passions, their own interests, what they wanted to see, what they were into, and then delegating to you all to really piece it together.

Derek Helwig (16:22)
yeah.

for sure.

Madelyn Cunningham (16:30)
Okay, that's really fascinating. Because sometimes creators, sure, really awesome.

Derek Helwig (16:32)
Yeah.

And he, mean, he's there along the way too, right? Like he goes on the road, he's directing things. I mean, our biggest thing is to make

sure we're all prepared for what he may throw the way. And like, you'll do a run through of things, you know, he'll see everything, what you put together and you just gotta be ready for that curve ball. And like, and I will say, like it always drove us crazy when those curve ball came in, but 99 % of the time he was right. I mean, like, yeah, it's like, and things like, Hey, we need to get like a band to be right here as they do this thing. And like, you know, they're playing whatever local drum or something they have.

you need to put that right there. I was like, okay, I have 24 hours or less than 24 hours to find a band to just throw right there, right? So that's, yeah. Oh, 100%, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, guess 99 % of the time he's right.

Madelyn Cunningham (17:04)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Can we find a busker who's like, you know, right. Well, to give

it like a soundtrack, to give it some like tension, to really confuse them. It's so interesting thinking about those story layers that you see in scripted that you're trying to produce organically on location, like sound, like time, like tension, like obstacles and challenges. Like it really is, again, like creating that story and that drama. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (17:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

for sure.

Yeah, it's a mad chaos too, which he is just so

good at like making that which obviously plays well on TV. If the show wouldn't have been on for 25 years now, I think it is that you know without that.

Madelyn Cunningham (17:46)
Mm-hmm. How do you, so, I mean, obviously, you know, now we have a lot of technology. We've got Google Maps, we've got TikTok. You can scout and see locations so transparently now. But during your time on the show, how did you guys mainly do your research, scout, look for new locations? Like, what was that process like?

Derek Helwig (18:08)
So when I was a research producer, I will say when I started on the show and I was in research, my phone was a razor. So that's like the level of, you know, things that we had. So obviously it's changed quite a bit. When I left, we had a Blackberry, which I was like, anyway, I kind of liked the fact that nobody could reach me when I was on a plane. It was kind of nice to have that break.

Madelyn Cunningham (18:14)
Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (18:26)
But yeah, so I read a lot of travel guide books. you know, things like Rick Steves or Lonely Planet, like I would just go through these things to see maybe there's something there. And then you just then it's then after you kind of just have the base level of things of like where things are, know, that you kind of there were times where I'd feel like I know this country inside and out just by reading these books. And I've never been there, which is a weird, arrogant thing to say. But like you spent a lot of time researching. So

And then after that, it's you you're going on things like YouTube. What's there? What have they done here? What have they done there? That kind of thing to seeing what you can kind of pull in. Are there some social media things that you can find? Like here's a trend that like this thing is here. I know that's kind of happened more now where I see on the show where like you always see like the alleyways that have like all the umbrellas and like things like that on people's Instagram posts like, we can go see that. Right. So yes, exactly. So you're looking for those things at the same time too. But you're also looking at what is that for me,

Madelyn Cunningham (19:12)
Mm hmm. Right. The photogenic spots. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (19:22)
especially it was always like, what is that culturally relevant thing? Because for as much as the show is about, you know,

in a British model, said it was always a show of a relationship show. How are these people going to react when they're together? I think what separates race to obviously is the worldwide aspect of it and being able to experience these cultures, putting people, know, fish out of water really is the case in these places. But you're also, I truly believe in whether like the other producers believe in that, but like, I always believe in a sort of a form of infotainment. And I would always have like teachers and stuff come up to me

when they found out I worked on the show and say, hey, I show my, you know, your shows to my students to teach them about the world. And like, I first say, well, you should probably show them other things as well, because, you know, there is a lot of bickering in that as well. But yeah, this should not be the primary source of how they experience some place. But it was really cool to be able to see that, yeah, it is making that impact and like showing people the world, because that's something, again, that was my mandate from the second I got out of college, this is what I want to do.

Madelyn Cunningham (20:12)
This is not the primary source.

So you knew the show, you knew the DNA of the show really well, and I'm sure that was so helpful. Then you get your, right, then you get your sort of mandate direction from the creator down. Then you're doing your own research, you're diving into these books. You know, I guess how, what's the next step? So like you're getting into the books and is it a, what is your sort of, how does it funnel down from?

Derek Helwig (20:32)
Yeah, I was a fan boy for sure.

Madelyn Cunningham (20:51)
doing the research to like, okay, we're going to zone in on this area because it is culturally rich for X and we're going to create a challenge out of X. Like, what are you looking for? Does something just kind of strike your intuition? Is it something, you know, that feels important to the culture that's critical to show? Like kind of how do you then start to distill, here's what's important and here's how we want to craft this together based on what you're seeing, what you're reading.

Derek Helwig (21:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, look, lot of it is, know, Bertram saying, I like this, I like that, I don't like this, I don't like that.

Madelyn Cunningham (21:20)
Sure, sure.

Derek Helwig (21:21)
But I think in my episodes that I always try to do was, and I use my episode, my very first one that I even scouted, which was Panama in season 19. You we had things, the show had been to Panama before, I think in the family season. But for me, I really wanted to tell the story of the country wherever I went, wherever I could. So for me, for that one, I really wanna make a culturally relevant through the different time periods that, you know, that country existed. So you'll see in that episode, they first have to go to this,

indigenous tribe. have to take a long boat in the middle of the night out to this tribe and spend the night in this tribe. So I wanted to be able to show the indigenous culture of what was pre-colonial times. They ultimately go back into town and in that time period of time during the rest of the episode you see things like the colonial period in Costco Viejo.

where the uh was it Costco yet? Yeah I think it was the main the main colonial part of town. You see like the fish market uh you'll see like one of the challenges was they had to like get the um make the sandals which is you know like that colonial era thing and then we in that roadblock which was crazy one that we put together which was like there was two high rises because I you know if you go to Panama City it looks like Miami like dead on like Miami just high rises everywhere and so I was like how do we incorporate those in there? Well this is the amazing race so we're gonna do something big with them.

So we made a tightrope walk across, you know, between two towers. Yeah, it's my mom. I will tell you, my mom, I never told her what I was doing until after the show aired. So when the show aired, because I didn't want her ever worry about anything.

Madelyn Cunningham (22:43)
Every time you tell me this, I get chills.

Right, well, cause

you said that you guys had to try it out. You tried out everything.

Derek Helwig (22:57)
Yeah, that was the best part of

the show is that you get to try out these things. that, I that I truly, all those times we got to do those things, I will tell my son one day about those types of things, right? Like this is what, you your dad got to do. And so I think it is really a really unique thing that you get to do all of these things that you would never get to do as a normal person on that show.

Madelyn Cunningham (23:18)
Right. Okay,

so, okay. You're on a tightrope between two high rises. What does that even look like planning? Are you like hiring engineers? Like what, I mean, what are you doing to like, for safety, for just the function of it? Like what did that even look like?

Derek Helwig (23:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah,

I will say doing the stuff, you know, I'm glad I did in my 20s. But I was never that fearful of those things because I honestly trusted the people that we brought in to do those things a lot. So there would be different groups that do that. That one in particular, I remember it was the ATS group who do a lot of things like Ninja Warrior. I know they do, but...

Madelyn Cunningham (23:42)
Shit.

Okay.

Okay, gotcha.

Derek Helwig (23:56)
like

they have credentials. Obviously we have to go through all the things with CBS to make sure that there's no, nothing goes bad because that's the worst thing you want to have happen. So I always felt the most safe actually doing things on race because like I know it's, I know that the people that we've hired to be part of this are legit people that are doing that. And I didn't feel, in fact, I didn't even feel scared. when you look at the B-roll of that episode, like you get to shoot the B-roll too in a lot of these places as a producer. like my feet are the ones that are on there or like the wide shot is me going,

Madelyn Cunningham (24:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (24:26)
across it as we're filming it so I went across that thing like six times I was like this is cool I'm never gonna do this again and I wasn't scared until like I was doing it and then like I fell and then instead of falling with like my legs to the side I fell with my legs if you for the people watching a video straight down and I was like and and caught myself yeah I was like I think I'm done I think I'm ready to go back to the building now so

Madelyn Cunningham (24:27)
Okay.

just right down the middle.

It's so, what an amazing thing to...

Trust the people you work with, to trust the crafts people, the engineers, the craftsmen who are putting this stuff together. It's really just, it's incredible. Were there...

Derek Helwig (24:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I will say this too. And

that's a thing about that show in general, not just those people, but even like your crew, you know, like that, the crew that worked on the show from the producers down to the camera people and the sound people, those are people to this day that I still, there's this camaraderie that you build when you do the show. I mean, you're in the trenches with them and like, and literally sometimes you are in the trenches because that was one the things we did with the World War I episode, but you really build that relationship with them. And it has lasted through time. I've randomly seen some of them just like on the road filming some

Madelyn Cunningham (25:08)
Totally.

Literate, yeah.

Derek Helwig (25:31)
sort of like police show in Vegas. like, what's up? know, like it's, really do feel like you are, you're very tight with these people.

Madelyn Cunningham (25:39)
Well, and I imagine at a time to pre-smartphone, you're on flights, there's no wifi, you're traveling together. You your choice is to hang out, to talk to each other. And I think that that, I imagine that the group was likely very tightly knit, which sounds really special and very cool.

Derek Helwig (25:56)
Yeah,

yeah, I remember this one. were driving to that World War One battle site from Germany into France. And I remember it was we were on like a Rockstar bus because that was the easiest way to get there. So we all have like our own bunks and stuff. But we're all like hanging in the back of the bus like Rockstars with Phil. And it was just a very fun experience sitting there talking, talking about each other's lives. It was it was an amazing time. I'm using amazing again. There is no word.

Madelyn Cunningham (26:16)
Yeah, and traveling, well, I mean, is there any other word? But you're right, you're

talking about how this is a relationship show, how this is looking at dynamics between two people, because travel does, they say you don't know someone until you travel with them. So getting to do that with your crew, getting to observe that is really neat. Speaking of falling off of a tightrope, were there any challenges or near disasters that almost derailed an episode?

Derek Helwig (26:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah, let me try to think of exactly what that would be. So my very first time going around the world, it was season 14, and we were filming in Siberia, and it was a great season. It was a great cast that season. If you haven't watched that one, I highly recommend it. It was prior to us going HD. That's my one thing. We ultimately did go HD, but...

Madelyn Cunningham (26:44)
Hahaha

Okay.

your pre-HD

era.

Derek Helwig (27:02)
pre-HD

era, yeah. But that was a great cast. But yeah, we're filming in Siberia and the challenge that I was assigned to for that one as a field producer was it was this snowplow thing. It was like November in Siberia. It was so cold. mean, everything you ever think about Siberia, that is it. That is that place. So we have these snowplows and with it came the snowplow drivers that the city had actually given us to use them, use snowplows for showing off this thing. So we made this little course that the teams had to work their way through. We always do the run through. The execs come by. They see everything.

everything to make sure it's all good. know, boss comes by, of course he's in a rental car, so it's a nice car. He checks it out, good, everything's ready to go. Teams have landed, now it's time to go. And I'm like, okay, great, teams have landed. They're like, you know, 45 minutes to an hour away. What's gonna happen? So of course, after the boss leaves and he's in this nice car, the crew, the snowplow drivers came by and they're like,

If we do good job, you give us extra money, right? You give us tip. And I was like, well, sir, I literally have no money on me, which I did not. And the deal had already been worked out and they're like, I don't think we can do this anymore. And I'm like, my gosh, this is my first time on the road for the show. I've been the show forever. Yeah. And I'm like, what am I going to do? The challenge producer I was with was a seasoned vet on the show and he was like, hey, check this out. Let's make these guys just super happy. So we run down the block. We grabbed two bottles of vodka.

Madelyn Cunningham (28:07)
They're playing you.

Derek Helwig (28:20)
back and we say hey guys thanks we really appreciate you being here let's just take some vodka and I'm not even joking like within 10 minutes it was like the guy's arm is around me and he's like my friend we work for you no problem you know and and you solve the problem so but it's things like that where it's like I said you can't stop you know the race and like that would have been the worst thing which is like I just don't have those things right so right right yeah yeah

Madelyn Cunningham (28:33)
very good, very good.

No. Yeah. Right. If they just went on strike and were like, no, not until you give

us some Siberian currency or whatever. I love how you say run to the storm. Like you were likely trudging through the snow. it was...

Derek Helwig (28:48)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

it was,

it was dumping snow that day. have pictures where you just see these giant flakes of snow. was Siberia's everything you could imagine and more.

Madelyn Cunningham (28:58)
crazy.

that's so wild. That's so, I just like, can't imagine the type of people you meet. It's so amazing. I mean, when you, you know, how did you, we talked about this a little bit and I know this is so critical to the show. It's so important to you. But how did you ensure that each challenge felt authentic to the culture

Derek Helwig (29:18)
Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (29:18)
like making sure that it really felt nice and honest to where you were.

Derek Helwig (29:23)
Yeah, I I think I'll go back to that Panama example. know, like for me, those were always really important things to make sure that you're incorporating the history of the place that you were in in the best way that you possibly can. And whether people picked up on that little storytelling or not, that was at least something personal I know that I

the because there other times too where it's like hey we want to do something like this especially those like big challenges right the ones that always make the promos and that kind of thing like you could theoretically do a bungee jump anywhere right and just kind of stick those things in there but I think there is something about being able to embrace the locals as well as much as you can in theirs and showcasing their story what is your story tell us what that story is and we'll find ways to bring that out as best as we can at the other day the show is a game show

You know, I mean, like, I don't want to get too philosophical and documentary-esque about it, right? Like, we're not necessarily doing Bourdain on these shows, but, you know, there is a way to embrace the culture and the people, especially, to tell their story with them.

Madelyn Cunningham (30:19)
Totally. Did you work with local consultants or fixers or anything like that? Okay. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (30:23)
Yeah, you have to. mean, and not just

on a race, but like even on other shows that I've done too, you kind of have to. I mean, there's only ways that you have to. There are some countries where if you don't have that, you're not getting in. Russia being one of them. And I would doubt I ever do a show again in Russia, to be honest with you, with the way things are. So that's too bad. I'm glad I got to do it, but you

Madelyn Cunningham (30:29)
Totally.

Right.

Mm. Right.

Was there a location that you never, that you always wanted to go to that you just, it didn't work out because of maybe, you know, access issues or anything else?

Derek Helwig (30:52)
well, were some that you get. So depending on where your assignments are right for for the show, you don't always get to go to everything. And I remember there I was always jealous of one where I wanted like they went to Azerbaijan and I was like, when am I ever going to go to Azerbaijan? I would love to go on that with that episode. And unfortunately, I didn't I didn't get to go, but I was always jealous of those who did.

Madelyn Cunningham (31:10)
You're gonna have to educate me, Derek,

I don't know where that is.

Derek Helwig (31:13)
It's basically Eastern Caucasus region But yeah, it's like Eastern Eastern Europe before you get to Russia. So there is a huge Russian influence there. But yeah, it's known for its oil. So like we had a challenge where like they had to take a bath in oil and like scrape it all off and from, you know, my friends that went there.

Madelyn Cunningham (31:20)
I see, okay.

Well, that's how people used

to bathe, was scraping. Yeah, yeah.

Derek Helwig (31:31)
Yeah, yeah, and you're just scraping that off, yeah.

And there were some things that we tried to show where like, they'll just be random pops of fire coming out of the ground because there's like natural gas reserves there and things like that. So we kind of had them show that on there too. But it just seemed like a, but when are you ever gonna go to Azerbaijan, right? So yeah, those were some cool places to do, to think you can go to. Yeah, where that is, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (31:42)
Mm-hmm.

fascinating. Right, right.

that's so, okay, now I'm gonna Google after I'm embarrassed my

geography. it's so bad. What, you know, were there ever any sort of cultural sensitivities or traditions that you had to be really mindful of when you're designing challenges?

Derek Helwig (32:06)
Yeah, I mean, just in general, one of our rules on the show and Bertram was very and probably still is very adamant about this is not wearing shorts. I mean, there were times and places of like you're on the beach or something like that. Like that made sense. You wore shorts in Hawaii or something. But for the most part, you weren't allowed to wear shorts because there is a you never know what that cultural sensitivity may be. But for for a challenge that actually I remember now that you think asking this question is like we were in Shanghai. Was it Shanghai? Yeah, it was Shanghai. We were putting this episode

Madelyn Cunningham (32:14)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Derek Helwig (32:36)
together and one of the challenges was...

They had to, there's this temple and they had to count all of these Buddhas that were in the temple. I mean, it was wall to wall Buddha statues, various shapes and sizes, happy Buddha, skinny Buddha, like all different kinds of Buddhas. And the challenge was they had to count all these Buddhas. So naturally, so when I'm testing this challenge, I'm like, one, two, three, four, and like using my finger to do that. I got yelled at during, while I was doing the testing by this lady. I had no idea what she was saying as I'm doing this, but kind of find out from

my PA translator that was with me was saying, it's very culturally insensitive to point at the Buddha. I had no idea about that. So what we ended up doing was we ended up actually having to write that in the clue that they were not allowed to use their finger in any way, or form for those cultural sensitivities. Because obviously you don't want to showcase that across the, they would have no way. If I didn't know, I guarantee the contestants didn't know that that was a thing.

Madelyn Cunningham (33:23)
Mmm.

Sure.

Right.

I didn't realize. And so there are so many things like that where it's important that just because it's okay for us and American culture and a part of life or whatever that, you you really are respectful when you travel. Because I think it's easy, you know, I've seen some other shows where they go to other countries and it's treated very like, like when they go to a, I don't know.

Derek Helwig (33:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (33:57)
a food truck or a market and the food is treated like it's a fear factor challenge. And it's like, that's not, don't, hate, you know, I'm not a fan of that approach because that's not, we're the weird ones. Sure, sure. Sure.

Derek Helwig (34:07)
Right.

We had our fair share of those two. Yeah, we had our fair share of those two.

yeah, I mean, I didn't test those ones. I'm gonna say that right now. So yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (34:15)
Yeah, there you go. There you

go. There you go. okay. So what's it, you know, you, you mentioned Panama, you mentioned Siberia. Is there like sort of a, a challenge that just really, you felt like it perfectly captured the essence of a location. It just, it all felt right. It felt good.

It went as planned and it just all fell into place.

Derek Helwig (34:30)
Yeah,

one that stands out to me, again, I'm a huge history buff, so being able to live this was very cool.

but we did the World War I trenches in this battle site. There was an actual battle site in Messiege, France for World War I. And what's really cool about it, they, you know, I think they talked about it after the episode aired, but if you see it in the B roll, you see this cross that's right there. And when we were actually, that was a real battle site, but in order to make it work, it had to be restored. So we actually hired construction crews to like help.

redo what the trenches looked like back in the day. While doing that, they found the body of a French soldier, like his remains in the ground. So we put up that cross to him and that was like a really cool thing. just to honor that entire thing and what an amazing time. So we got to, in case we were in the shot as well, all of us producers dressed up like American Doughboys, just like the...

just like the contestants were doing in case we were in the shot and we got to work with like French reenactors we had you know the red like proper red bear and airplanes like doing dog fights above the air we had a special group come in that did like explosives and obviously we added the sound effects in later they're just popping out these you know things of sod but it was really cool like to be able to to be there i think it really like that was one of my favorite challenges to see that i think that actually that picture of us as made like the producer

Madelyn Cunningham (35:38)
Mm-hmm.

That's wild.

Derek Helwig (35:50)
Producers

Guild photo spread, because we took a photo and we made it sepia tone to make it look like it was 1918. So you see all the producers there lined up in our outfits, like looking like doughboys. But that was one I think that really captured it. I mean, obviously it's a historical thing, I mean, was, you know, it wasn't all quiet on the Western Front, but it was pretty, pretty close to it.

Madelyn Cunningham (35:56)
Mm-hmm.

Well, just the detail that you're not only like you have this very personal encounter in the actual location, but then you're again, you're layering on these pieces of story and sound and action. So like really, yeah.

Derek Helwig (36:22)
Yeah. Well, the challenges were too. Yeah, it was like you had to do

like this phone thing. You had to like, they had to crawl through the, through the trenches and get like a little message and send it off a messenger pigeon. So it was a very, very cool one that will always stay with me.

Madelyn Cunningham (36:38)
that's really neat. I mean, if Amazing Race were launching today, right? Obviously it's still going. What do you think would be different about it? I mean, it's, again, we look at like kind of like pre-smartphone era. Like there's so much about it that when you watch it, it feels a little period because you can tell. What would be different about it today, you think?

Derek Helwig (36:58)
I hate to say this, especially as a development executive, I think it would not be on the air. Yeah, no, I do not. And it's sad to say because that show has made such a cultural...

Madelyn Cunningham (37:02)
I literally was gonna say that. Do you think it would even get green lit? Ugh.

Yeah.

Derek Helwig (37:09)
you relevance in the world. It's been on for so long and everyone refers to it. But sadly, this day and age, I sadly don't think that you can pitch, hey, we're going to do a giant company move to different countries every three days. You know, like again, going back to that audacity thing of that show, like that is the audacity of that show is that that gets done. I just don't think somebody greenlights that in this day and age. And it's really sad to say that, but no, yeah. And it better be a very, yeah. Right.

Madelyn Cunningham (37:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

No, not without a brand partner. They'd be like, every episode is a different brand, right? we're gonna...

Derek Helwig (37:37)
Right. I mean,

they tried it like around the world. 80 plates was a thing. Like if you remember that show, they tried to go around and like people have tried to do it and there are things that I think try to do it and there are spin-offs of race. But I just sadly, I don't think that anyone would agree like that show. And that makes me, that makes it really sad.

Madelyn Cunningham (37:52)
It's yeah, I yes, I agree. Are there any other shows that you feel like kind of capture the spirit of Amazing Race or that you know, whether they're current or have aired in the past?

Derek Helwig (38:02)
Yeah, that's

a great question. want to say yes, but I honestly and not again not to sound arrogant about the show, but I just don't think it does. There's nothing like to the people that make that show. I truly believe are some of the best in the business and they say you can't recreate that. There are some shows. I think I was actually just reading about something called Destination X. That's like it's a Belgian format that think NBC just bought. I'm excited to see that because I was reading about I was like this sounds very race as.

Madelyn Cunningham (38:27)
So is this the one where you,

I saw a casting call for this, is this the one where they drop players in a location and they have to work backwards to figure out where they are?

Derek Helwig (38:36)
I don't know if it's that one. think it's they put them in a bus and then they black out the windows and then they drop them somewhere I think I don't exactly know how it goes. I just saw that it was in the trades. Yeah, it might be some of that. Yeah

Madelyn Cunningham (38:42)
Okay, that's, might be similar. Yeah. Where it's basically like you

get, you get put somewhere and you got to figure out where you are. It reminds me of, you see the guys? I always just, I was like, I bet they saw the TikTok video of the guy who just gets a random Google map photo and he's like Siberia, like he knows where it is. And I was like, you know what I'm talking about? I bet you'd be great at it. You've been like everywhere, but he's.

Derek Helwig (38:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

yeah, I played that game, that's a fun game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My brothers and I

actually played that game,

Madelyn Cunningham (39:08)
He's like looking at, you know, like the foliage and like the

terrain and he's like, okay, this has to be here. And so it was, I was like, someone saw it. Some development person saw that TikTok video and is working backwards, but.

Derek Helwig (39:16)
Yeah. Yeah, apparently it's

a European concept, I guess. It's done well in Belgium or something.

Madelyn Cunningham (39:21)
Yeah, yeah. fascinating.

Yeah, I mean, it really is one of a kind. And that's why I believe it's had such a long run. It is so close to people's hearts and it has a lot of fans. And I posted, I try to do this as much as I can, especially for shows that have a big fandom, but I will post on the Reddit threads that I'm interviewing someone and the thread that I posted on had so many responses. People were dying to ask you things.

Derek Helwig (39:25)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Madelyn Cunningham (39:47)
So I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions from this fan Reddit that are just really fun. you can just tell what a loyal, engaged, interested fan base this has. And I think that's really rare and it's really special.

Derek Helwig (39:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

I used to have

to work with like on the forums they would try and track us and you have to try and throw them off and I trust me they were some we should have been hiring those people to work in research because they found flights I was like wow you know this flight exists so yeah if we know the rapid fan base yeah

Madelyn Cunningham (40:12)
that's fascinating. So,

okay, interesting. It's like when it makes you think of like when people are trying to figure out like who the bachelor couple is. So you actually had people who were like, were they like giving tips and they're like.

Derek Helwig (40:20)
Yes.

yeah,

there were some people that would get on the flight at LAX with our teams to give them, they would buy a last minute flight to China just to be able to try and talk to them as they're flying out. Like that's insane. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (40:29)
Sure, sure.

No way.

That's interesting. I did not know that. Wow. That's fascinating. I love that. Okay. So I'll just run through a couple of these questions. There's some great ones here. How important is detour balance to production? Are detours designed to always be as close in difficulty as possible or does entertainment and the connection to the location weigh more than balance?

Derek Helwig (40:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, mean, you're only, well first of all for entertainment, you're only putting something up there that's gonna be entertaining, first of all. So I think when you're doing that, you are trying to figure that out of like...

Madelyn Cunningham (41:02)
always.

Derek Helwig (41:06)
Is there an equal part of it? I think there was this very apparent in the early years of the show too, where Phil would explain what they were, like the pros and cons. I remember he would talk about the pros and cons in the copy. And I think there is that. like, you don't always want to have something that's like super physical because that may not work for some teams and you want to have pitfalls and things like that. So I would say that very much as a balance. Sometimes, and I know where the person asking this question probably was coming from, like, that one seems so much easier than the other ones. And sometimes it just is.

And no matter how much you try and test something out, you as a producer will never have the mindset of someone who has the opportunity to win a million dollars. We just can't get that, right? We're getting our salary, but we're not getting a million dollars.

Madelyn Cunningham (41:44)
Right?

that's so interesting.

Basic but silly question, where do the contestants go to the bathroom and has it ever cost someone a position in a race? They say they just watched one in season 36 who got food poisoning apparently and this spurred their question.

Derek Helwig (41:59)
Uh-huh.

Yeah, great question. Yes, and it's not just for the cast, it's for the crew as well. And like the crew probably, I would say even has a harder because they don't want to be holding up the teams because that could be a problem.

Madelyn Cunningham (42:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (42:16)
So you go where you can and that's honest to God where it is. There was a time, it was season 14 I believe, where Keisha and Jen, it was like the penultimate episode going into the finale. One of the sisters had to pee so badly and they were in Beijing I believe.

Madelyn Cunningham (42:20)
Yeah

Derek Helwig (42:33)
and it cost them the race. That's why they ended up doing season 18 for Unfinished Business, because that was the reason why they missed out. But yeah, even our crew as well. remember being on a set somewhere. It was at the UN actually doing a finale game and our camera guy or no, our audio guy was like, I haven't peed all day. I have to go.

Madelyn Cunningham (42:38)
okay. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (42:53)
take this so I took his rig and I'm running audio while trying to judge I mean and he ran inside to go to the bathroom and there's a great photo of me doing that so.

Madelyn Cunningham (43:02)
Well, it's so real. I don't know, you're heading out for a day in New York where public bathrooms are scarce and you're having to really plan when you're going to make sure you go when you eat lunch. And I know that public accommodations across cultures is just very different. So, you know, like you go to Europe and you're like, can I get a can I get a plug for my charger? And they're like, excuse me. So I imagine that all of those things are just like so

Derek Helwig (43:18)
Very different. Yeah.

Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (43:28)
Yeah, do it when you can is the answer. love that. Have you ever interacted with the teams? And if so, were there any duos or teams that really stood out to you?

Derek Helwig (43:28)
for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, we would interact with the teams. But I mean, I will say this and from the country producer side of things, we would always try and keep up some sort of wall. The higher up execs would have more in the casting people. They would always have the interaction with them and the story people. When it came to the country producers and the field producers and things like that, we would intentionally not try to interact with them unless it was like, you need to come here, sit there. Like be very, very regimented with them because we don't want to, you know, have any sort of favoritism or anything like that. So yeah, just

to keep everything on the up and up. You wouldn't do that until after they were, once they were eliminated, yes, you would talk to them and that kind of thing. And a lot of times we'd be the ones escorting them to the next place or dropping them off somewhere. So yeah, in fact, one of the first times I got to go on the road for the show, remember Robin Amber had just been eliminated in the All-Star season. I flew all the way down to Buenos Aires, Boston Rob, yeah. I...

Madelyn Cunningham (44:24)
Justin Robb? I just watched Traitors, so now I'm all

Derek Helwig (44:28)
I know

Madelyn Cunningham (44:28)
like...

Derek Helwig (44:28)
I'm on the last episode, so don't spoil it for me. But yes, Boston Rob being on that, I was like, go Boston Rob, please. I will always love that man no matter what show he's on. I hope he's on more shows. He offered to use his per diem to upgrade me to business class because I had just flown 10 hours in a Buenos Aires. I was literally, two hours in the airport and then was getting on the same plane to fly back to take him to Sequestor. And I was like, I...

Madelyn Cunningham (44:33)
Okay.

He seems to be a favorite, yeah.

Derek Helwig (44:55)
don't want to cross that line I shouldn't do it which I so sad I didn't because that was the one the longest flights I've ever had just there was no TV on Mexicana Airlines at the time so but yes

Madelyn Cunningham (44:57)
Hmm.

Sure.

that's a cool story.

I did not know the Boston Rob lore until Traders, I have to admit. And so I didn't, like I didn't know, I know. So like I had to go back, look at Survivor, him and Amber, like the whole thing. And now I feel like a Boston Rob loyalist. So I love, I love to hear that. And I love to hear that he's a good guy. He seems like a really great guy.

Derek Helwig (45:11)
wow, you got some catching up to do.

Yeah.

absolutely, I am, yep. yeah,

we watched at sequester we started watching Sopranos together. So it was kind of fun.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:30)
I love that. I love that.

Is there what is your favorite country that you got to visit because of the show?

Derek Helwig (45:34)
That's a hard question. places that I would only ever probably get to go. think I, thinking about that, the ones that popped in my head, Malawi. Like I would never go to Malawi.

And I say that I actually have a degree in, I did my research in Africa. So I've actually been to Africa at several random countries, but Malawi, I never even was on my radar to go and we went and that episode stands out to me. It was just, it was just a great episode, first of all. And then like my location was at this school.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:50)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (46:04)
where the challenge was to build little toys for kids and whoever got finished first got to go. And that I remember just how great it to spend all day, just this really cool experience and singing and dancing with kids while we had different teams come in. They got their toy built and teams went on. And then I wrapped up the location and I was driving back to my hotel and I remember this kid pulling.

one of the toys. was like a little train thing on a string and he was like halfway down the road and he's just pulling it and he's so happy that he got this toy. I was like, man, this is what this is about to me. Like we just made this kid's life right now. Like, you know, like he got to be on TV. He got to do all that. Like it was just a really fun experience to be able to do that. And like, I don't know if I'd get that, you know, just doing it on your own. You're not going to recreate that.

Madelyn Cunningham (46:38)
Mm.

Yes, right, right,

right. was there a lot of moments like that connecting with locals that you just like, that was, they were just really special?

Derek Helwig (46:55)
for sure.

Yeah, that was one of them that stands out. Another one was actually another Siberia story. The pit stop captain and I were on our way to go to dinner and we had no idea where this place was. Again, we didn't have smartphones to be able to look it up. And so we're walking out in the nighttime in Siberia and we asked this guy and of course, English is not spoken for as much as we don't speak Russian America. They do not speak English there. So we asked this guy and he was like, basically like, know, through a game of pantomime charades or whatever, he's like, I'll take you.

So he takes us to this place, I go, thank you. And he ends up sitting down with us.

and having dinner with us. And we're just like, okay, so for two hours, we're just having this conversation with this guy through pantomime, Pictionary, like, and being able to interact like that. And just like this young kid, he was probably like 22. And yeah, and just learn more about him, more about this place that we're in and all that. And we're like, wow, this is, this is what an amazing thing. Again, amazing, but like to be able to like, just meet a local, asking directions and all of a sudden, you know, we have a

hour dinner with him.

Madelyn Cunningham (48:03)
Right, and you don't speak the same language. Like to be able to connect through gestures, facial expressions, these things that other than pointing and some other things, like there's a lot of universality in that. And I think that like, if I can't imagine...

Derek Helwig (48:04)
Don't speak the same language at all. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (48:19)
how many sort of just lessons and experiences you got where you're like, we're all the same people. you know what I mean? are there, you know, this is not a Reddit question, but I am curious, are there sort of ways that you traveled now post Amazing Race, where you're like, where you kind of have like your mandates or your rules for how you travel,

Derek Helwig (48:25)
absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Hahaha

Yeah.

I will say this, when I started working on that show, I was actually terrified of flying.

And which is a really weird thing to say, but I had this really bad experience in college once where I was flying up Seattle and the captain was like, turn your seatbelt on immediately. We came out of the clouds. It was like bouncing around. It was really bad. So for years I was afraid of flying and it took me to really to working on that show. I'd be like, all right, I'm just going to get over it and you get over it. So now I think the thing that I do for travel is like when it comes time to like get on the plane, I am one of those people, especially now where everyone's like, you can't, you know, you got to pay for baggage and all that stuff. And I want the overhead space. I am like,

Madelyn Cunningham (49:02)
Yeah.

Derek Helwig (49:16)
I had built up so much status from flying around that I was usually one of the first people to get on the plane if I wasn't upgraded for free and that was that was great. Losing that I will say after the after I stopped working on the show that is sad but yeah but I'll be one of those people now where I'm creeping up I'm not gonna break the rule where I'm boarding at the wrong zone but I'm like boxing people out to creep up to the front

Madelyn Cunningham (49:26)
You're like, devastating.

any other like, like travel musts for you.

Derek Helwig (49:40)
I actually learned this. So I was producing the episode in India, the one where they did the Bollywood thing. And so I did the scout and then you come back and like India is literally halfway across the world. And so you have a lot of flight time on that. And on the way back from the scout, I realized that like, my feet are really killing me. And so when you fly your feet swell. And because I had done that flight so much that I was getting to the point I had to go to the doctor because the pain just wouldn't go away. Turns out I was getting plantar fasciitis, a little bits of my

Madelyn Cunningham (49:46)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (50:10)
bone in my feet were flaking off because of the compression like the swelling on my feet so I learned from that point I had a rule and I still keep to this day I went I bought those like you know the socks for old people the compression socks and anything over five hours I am putting those things on they are super tight but they will they save your absolutely they do yeah yeah

Madelyn Cunningham (50:16)
Mm-hmm.

Fire.

It works. It works. I agree

with you. am like up to my knees, compression socks. it's, and it changed the game for me. Like I noticed a huge difference in my fatigue. I noticed like, yeah, okay. So compression socks and upper compartment room. Those are our, those are our, how many, how many flights do you think you've, took during your time on Amazing Race? You got it. I feel like, I don't know how you're going to figure it out, but totally.

Derek Helwig (50:47)
yep, You're boxing out. Gotta make sure you box out. my God, someone asked me that and I honestly have no idea.

At some point I'm gonna have to go back and find out

how many I took because yeah, it was a lot. Yeah, I earned my own round the world ticket because I had so many free go flyer miles. I did my own round the world trip after I left the show. Going to all the places where I didn't get to necessarily see. So I never got to see the Great Wall filming all those times in China. So I went to go see the Great Wall. I never got to see the Taj Mahal. I filmed all these places in India. Never got to see the Taj Mahal, so I went there. So I did my own little round the world trip using all my miles. I paid, I think it was like 700 bucks for taxes and that's it.

Madelyn Cunningham (51:00)
Yeah, that's so crazy. my gosh.

That's

cool. that's very cool. I love to hear that. How has the race changed since you, so you stopped your last season with season 22. How have you seen it? The show sort of evolve and the races change.

Derek Helwig (51:33)
Yep.

Yeah, I mean, they've tried different casting things, you know, obviously trying to stay relevant and like, I know they've done some more quirkier things too, like I think they had like YouTube celebs or something one time, things like that. But I think they're going back to like, you the essence of what the show is. think what's, know, RACE even when I was working on it, you know, the Andy Denharts of the world would give RACE a hard time, right? Like writing their blogs about...

Madelyn Cunningham (51:39)
Mm.

Derek Helwig (51:58)
you know, what the show should be. And I think what's interesting about the show is you're constantly comparing it to what it was before. But you gotta remember the show has been on for 25 years. you like you only reinvented so many times. Lifetime, yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Forever. Like if that show was on Netflix, it ain't staying on for 25 seasons, right? Like so.

Madelyn Cunningham (52:08)
Right. Which is a lifetime in this particular timeline in entertainment. It's a lifetime.

No, no,

no, from the changes from 2000 to 2025, you like technology? I mean, it's just, it's crazy.

Derek Helwig (52:26)
Yeah, technology, yeah.

So I know that they, know even with COVID too, right? They had to take out the, even the travel, like they were having to fly a special plane around. And I think they've gotten rid of that the last couple of seasons, but that's a big change. So yeah, think you're constantly comparing it to what it was. And I think the one thing that I wish that there was more of was I wish that there was more of the travel element to it.

Madelyn Cunningham (52:38)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (52:53)
you a lot of people are like, oh, I got tired of being the airports. Well, airports are really where you can make or break that game. If you're getting on the flight, you know, early or whatever. But what I really miss are the earlier seasons where like,

you're going from Spain to Morocco and you're having to take that ferry and it's like three days just to get there, right? I kind of miss those elements. It's hard to do now because you have to, as with every show, you're having to compress schedules for budgetary reasons. So you couldn't do that anymore, but I, I miss those things. Cause like that really gave you the sense of I am traveling around the world.

Madelyn Cunningham (53:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, being able to sit in it a little bit. Okay, favorite part of the job, least favorite part of the job on this show.

Derek Helwig (53:28)
favorite part of the job honestly, it really was the people. Getting to meet the people you can. Like have stories about like just trying to get the places that we did. Like I remember one of my last seasons I was in Botswana and you know, I'm having to go in front of the tribe, essentially the tribe.

and say here's what we want to do and then you're negotiating so like they negotiated wanting a land a new land rover i was like well i'm not made of land rovers so i can't do that so i think things like that though and like those types of stories and meeting the people and working with these people i'll always remember i mean like for instance i'm gonna show those that are watching online this bow and arrow set right here was given to me by the bushman in botswana that i shot with when i left and i'll remember his name is it

Madelyn Cunningham (54:06)
Wow.

Derek Helwig (54:10)
It's that clicking language, right? So those are the things that I remember and I cherish. So I think that was my favorite part is working with the people. Worst.

Madelyn Cunningham (54:14)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Any and your least jet lag? No.

Right.

Derek Helwig (54:20)
I mean, well, it is asleep, right? You're on that

show and, you know, there would always be a situation, you get back home and everyone gets sick because you are running that race with them as much as they're running it. Probably even more so because while they get to take the pit stop, you're setting up for the next thing. So you don't get that same amount of time. So everyone runs on adrenaline and when that adrenaline drops, you get sick.

Madelyn Cunningham (54:29)
course.

Oh, that's, yeah. Isn't that classic, like getting back from travel and it's just like, oh yeah. Exactly, exactly. Let's see. Okay, last question. Let's do this. What was the, I of have asked you about obstacles or anything, but in general in producing the show, the logistics, everything, what was the hardest challenge you encountered?

Derek Helwig (54:47)
yeah, know the name vacation, yeah.

I mean, the whole thing is this network of weaving all these different things together.

You know, transportation is you got to make sure like you have a bunch of cars. You have a transportation captain that you're typically hiring and working with them to make sure everyone is at where they need to be. All of your producers, all of your anyone that's related to the show who has a car. How are they getting there? That kind of thing going in this just to tell another story, but going back to your question about what was like the one of the hardest places I talked about that World War one show that was another one because like going back to the logistics thing and what was

hard about it is like in France and kudos to them that they're very adamant about how many hours they will work. That's great. That does not work for a show like the Amazing Race where you can't stop it right? Yes, yes they have great work-life balance but for the Amazing Race yeah that doesn't work. So our drivers we had a rule that we weren't allowed to drive for obvious reasons.

Madelyn Cunningham (55:48)
intense work-life balance. They're not answering the phone. Yeah.

Derek Helwig (55:59)
super tired, you should not be driving. So, but they all left. So we're out on this battlefield like area, there's no trains, there's no nothing like that. And we got to get to our next location. And so, you know, one of the other producers and I were like, well, what are going to do? So we literally just commandeered the self driving episode. we commandeered the Mercedes that the team had just that was eliminated just had.

And we drove that to the next town and drove through the night to get to the next place because we had to just get there. things like that. like, yeah, like that was always a challenge of like, you know, getting from A to B. Absolutely. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (56:36)
getting from A to B. Yeah.

What was before we wrap on the Amazing Race, what was your greatest professional, you know, for a show that iconic, that large in scale, what was your greatest professional takeaway once you you wrapped that season 22?

Derek Helwig (56:54)
Greatest professional takeaway? Not to get political, but this is at the time where Donald Trump was very upset about not winning for The Apprentice. And he went on a rant about Amazing Race winning and how we shouldn't have won and all these things. my picture kind of went viral where I stood next to our company's statue and pointed at it and said, Donald, you mad, bro? And so that was just a fun little jab. And I still repost that from time to time.

Madelyn Cunningham (57:17)
I love that. I did not know about this. You have to send this picture to me. you teach a course on reality TV at your alma mater, Chapman University. documentaries taught in most schools and is considered the prestige form of

Derek Helwig (57:18)
Yeah, yeah, I will.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (57:32)
real life storytelling and reality TV and unscripted can a lot of times be looked down on. I want to know what is your syllabus look like? Talk to me about what you teach in a semester.

Derek Helwig (57:33)
Yep. Yep.

for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, I say I am. mean, my career has obviously I did, you know, shows like the Great British, the American version of Great British Bake Off and some more of those more what we call reality. Right. And then now more lately with Xpedition, you know, I've done that. We did show called Table Wars with Martha Stewart. And that was very much based on Great British Bake Off with tablescaping. So it really is obviously that competition side of things I still love and hold dear. And I still try and develop those shows. I love those kinds of shows. I also love documentary. And so with documentary, I kind of look at it like

Reality

is a form of documentary. I try and put everything under the unscripted umbrella and there's multiple things that are unscripted So think one of the first things that I teach is there are when people think of reality It's changing that mindset of what is reality you would never put? Kardashians next to Bourdain, right? Those two things just don't But like yeah, everyone else is all it's a reality show. And so I think it's really first of all retraining your mind What does that mean? So there's documentary there's you know competition reality. There's doc you follow there's games

show, everything that's unscripted, right? So I think that's the first thing we do. So in the syllabus, we do, and there's a couple that I've started to teach two reality courses. One of them I created, which was just on competition reality. And I hope to be able to create more of like specific genre classes. Because I think when I'm putting my syllabus together, I'm trying to think what are the examples I show?

Madelyn Cunningham (58:45)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (59:04)
There's so many options. And think that's what really opens your mind. And so one of my pitches to try and teach more of those classes to the university was like, listen, we can't just be teaching one class once a year. That's just not a thing. Because I went and broke down the statistics in 2022 when I started that, or started trying to pitch more than I've been teaching since 2018. 54 % of...

Madelyn Cunningham (59:06)
It's so diverse.

Derek Helwig (59:27)
all of the landscape in television is what we would consider unscripted.

So that's a large percentage that probably should be taken more seriously. So there always is like this level of like, it's not the, you know, it's not film. You're not Christopher Nolan doing this, but there are a lot of jobs. And so that's what I try and show that like, this is a world where more jobs could be had. It's obviously go every university, get their students jobs, their alma mater is working. So on that syllabus, I'm giving them an overview of what everything that you could find in this space is. And then the second half of the semester, it's really working towards your pitch material.

and how you sell your show. So they will be doing for their final. They will be coming up with their own idea.

whether it's docufollow, whether it's game show, whether it's, you know, competition, whatever that may be, they're going to come up with a pitch deck that is sellable and they're going to come up with their sizzle that they're going to make. And the goal is that they leave that class as their final. They're going to be pitching it to actually three different industry executives. And should that show strike any of their interests, they get a deal. We did this before and wrote deals for the people that we thought it was, hey, this has a chance of developing. Let's do this more.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:00:36)
That's really, really cool. I love those real life examples.

Derek Helwig (1:00:37)
Yeah, so I think it'd be, yeah, absolutely. And to

leave college with like, you know, an option agreement, that's pretty big.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:00:44)
Yeah, it is. And you don't...

In this world, it's so difficult to sort of find your way through it as someone who just started in development a few years ago to be like, what are the rules? What do the decks look like? How does this go? You really have to find someone who's done it before to way fine. And you don't get a chance to practice. the fact that, and to have these real life scenarios of getting feedback, being in a pitch.

Derek Helwig (1:00:52)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Well, I take it from the standpoint

of like, will I one day be able to hire this student? Because if I know that, if I have trained them well enough, they know my style, they know all these things that we do, I hope that one day I'll be able to do that.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:01:12)
yeah.

Well, yeah, I was going to ask you, once a student is done in your class, do you want them to know or understand?

Derek Helwig (1:01:25)
the very first thing is I want them to believe in themselves. So we actually work a lot on pitching and pitching techniques and like how you should pitch, how pitches are even happening these days. I want them to learn the landscape, because that's one thing that I think, you know, my career is interesting in the sense of like, I don't know a lot of people that actually go from a production career into development.

I think a lot of times you work with a lot of, especially network executives too, right? They always, actually were, they grew up in the development sphere. There are obviously lot of people that go from the production side to development, but I think, you know, having that experience and being able to know what the landscape is and learn who the players are. So that's something that we also talk about as well as like, who is where, what is this net, what is this buyer looking for and how do you get things sort of made? So I want them to be able to believe in themselves, learn the landscape.

and then really understand what becomes a sellable thing. Now, I'm not gonna sit there and say, I know this is gonna sell, that's not gonna sell. If I knew that, I would be a much better development executive because nobody knows what is selling. Things do just happen some place, place, right time. But I want them to be able to have that confidence that they can take this somewhere. And I always try and teach them to, you may get a no, but you need to look at it from the standpoint of it's not a no, it's just a not right now.

because I even, like this week, I'm getting people from four years ago that I pitched ideas to calling back and saying, hey, did you guys ever do anything with that idea? And it's like, okay, so yeah, like training their heads to how to deal with rejection is another thing too.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:02:55)
That is the first lesson I think you learn early on is no is part of it. Rejection, no, it is part of it. It is 90 % of it. And you got to go ahead and figure out how you're going to handle it to really succeed. and you're right. Nothing is ever really dead. This industry is so

Derek Helwig (1:02:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:03:15)
It goes through cycles, it's so cyclical, the execs change, they move, the trends, the thing, you And so you really do have to continue to push, continue to believe. I just think that's asking yourself the question, would I hire this student after? Am I equipping them to have the confidence to pitch, to be able to take rejection? These are all key parts of being in the industry.

Derek Helwig (1:03:16)
So cyclical, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:03:42)
that you know super well, especially as an SVP of development currently. So you are at Xpedition. So you are now on the other side. You're receiving pitches and you're developing as well. So, and it's an interesting time to be in your position. It's an interesting time to be in development, to be in media. So, tell me what you're seeing, what trends you're seeing in the development world right now when it comes to how things are getting made.

Derek Helwig (1:03:57)
Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:04:05)
and what is getting made. What are you seeing right now in 2025?

Derek Helwig (1:04:07)
Mm-hmm Yeah, we

we definitely saw the downtrend in 2022 I think it was You know and obviously with the trends that are happening right now everyone saying the same thing right true crime sports or celeb and that seems to be what it is and Sally I I Don't know how many more of these inside sports things we can do

So

yeah, think those are kind of the trends that everyone's saying. I will say when we, so we kind of shifted a little bit. yeah, we were doing a lot of the trying to come up with formats. Obviously I had a format brain from just my experience of what we were doing. Same thing with the owner of our company. He had worked on Big Brother. He had worked on MasterChef. So we knew like that's the world that we knew. So I remember it being at a real screen actually. And I think it was the summertime real screen. There was like the one that they kind of did. It was real screen West, but like.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:04:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Real Screen

West.

Derek Helwig (1:04:51)
It was Real Screen West, it was also like, this is the real screen for the year, because they had canceled the January one because of COVID or, right, and they didn't end up a point. Were you with us? Okay, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:04:57)
Because of COVID, yeah. I was at this one. I

think I'm almost positive I was, yeah.

Derek Helwig (1:05:03)
Yeah,

well you remember that giant tent that was out on the lawn. So it's the middle of summertime Southern California and like they have this giant tent but you could only go in there it was the Warner Brothers Discovery tent because Warner Brothers Discovery had just merged and it was almost like getting into a club like you had to get checked in and you're like this is great to actually be inside here because every well other meeting that I'm having I'm getting sunburned. So yeah it was was nice to be in that thing. I remember this thing at the time like they had this giant tent for Warner Brothers Discovery and yet every meeting that you had with

Madelyn Cunningham (1:05:05)
Yes.

Yep. Yep. totally exclusive.

Derek Helwig (1:05:32)
everyone in there, they weren't fully saying, we're not buying, but it almost was, we're not buying. And I remember thinking that, was like, what is happening? So we talked about this as a team, like, I think there might be a downturn here. And sure enough, we started getting into that and then became survive till 25 moment, right? But we saw that early on and we said, there's an opportunity here. If we start putting in our own resources,

to be able to help people, other producers, get their projects out and we become partners with them, not just like to fund things, but actually be a solid force production partner in these projects, we can go into the doc space and try and get things out.

Derek Helwig (1:06:10)
Our first one with, we were Sammy Kahn, who is a nominee for an Academy Award. We worked with Al Roker on the Kenyatta movie. Al Roker was another executive producer. We worked with Tim Harris and Seven Knots to make that project. And then upcoming, we just went to DocNYC. won.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:06:21)
Mmm.

Derek Helwig (1:06:28)
runner up, which was really cool to see that in Doc NYC for a film we did with Andi Timoner telling the story of her sister who's a Jewish rabbi in Brooklyn and how she has teamed up with a Baptist minister to help solve racism. So not a light topic, but you know, seeing their struggles and what that could be. And then we have another one coming

with a first time feature director, but is also being EP'd with Alex Gibney. So really trying to get our name out there with these amazing filmmakers that we can and figure out what works and how we get these movies out there.

Derek Helwig (1:06:59)
the one that we did, Kenyatta, Do Not Wait Your Turn, that was our first feature that we did. And it was about the story of Malcolm Kenyatta, who would have been the first openly gay person of color on the US Senate and followed his campaign through the primary with John Fetterman. You know, if you pay attention to politics, you know he doesn't win. So really the question of that documentary is about what does it mean to be electable in America?

Madelyn Cunningham (1:07:24)
Mm.

Derek Helwig (1:07:24)
this

day and age. And so being able to take that chance and that's, and like, you know, we're thinking, okay, it's 2024 that will probably come out around that time. It's going to go into an election cycle. People will want that and they haven't. And so you had to turn to different things and like, I mean, everyone's having trouble selling anything these days. So, you know, then you get to learn what T-VOD and A-VOD and how that all works. Yeah. Fast channels and things like that, just to get your work out there.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:07:44)
channels. Totally,

yeah.

Derek Helwig (1:07:49)
You

know, so, but that was an amazing documentary that you get to work on and get to tell that story. And then now he has actually risen to be like the DNC vice chair. So you're seeing your subjects just like rise in the world too. So hope that creates things. So you're learning all these new things that are coming about, trying to get things out there. You're constantly hustling, but yeah, I think, you know, I mean, I really hope to be, I keep on hearing second half of 2025 people are gonna be buying again. Look.

we've been hearing it since 2022. But I do see that people are like, there's posts for like job postings. I'm like, oh, okay, if you're hiring a manager of development for a network, I want to believe that maybe you're looking to buy some new shows here.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:08:24)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

Well, I mean, just think you are, I think it's incredibly clear how good at just being nimble you are. I think in this world, you can't be restricted by genre, by long form, mid form, short form, by just streaming. YouTube is becoming such a huge topic of conversation right now. And so I think you really have to be nimble and

Derek Helwig (1:08:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's another one too, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:08:58)
you know, try to look at every opportunity, every connection and find the story, no matter where it is sports, politics. And as long as you follow that, you hope that there is a genuine interest in something there. But you're right, being trying to read the tea leaves and be nimble is what it's all about.

Derek Helwig (1:09:09)
Yeah.

It's hard. And I will say we don't take

every idea either too that comes out of our, we've now have a mandate now with the CEO putting it out there, but it needs to fit into a certain bucket for us. so buckets for us are like, does this project, no matter what it is, whether it's competition, whether it's docu, whatever it may be, does it fit into a bucket of...

History, because we both love history, right? So that's gonna be one bucket that we're due. Passion, are we passionate about this? Is this something that we want to make and we'll feel happy making it? And especially a big one is hope. Is there some sort of hope in this? So when you look at, like I said, Kenyatta, that was hope. We saw Malcolm as there was a new type of politician coming out. Is there some sort of hope that you're gonna take away from this project? And that's really, mean, again, you were already talking about restricting things and what's selling. So it's restricted even more.

There is, using the word out of the day, audacity. There's some audacity to that, but we hope that that gets good quality programming out there too.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:10:09)
Yeah, 100%.

What would you like to see more of out there?

Derek Helwig (1:10:13)
Yeah, I mean just to go back to my roots and not to just because Amazing Race was a travel show, but

It was, but what I really got into business to try and do was I always loved the hosted travel shows that Travel Channel used to do before they took out all the vowels in their name. That's paranormal, right? So yeah, those types of shows where it's just a host, camera, sound producer. Like that's the thing I always want to do. It's like the Bourdains of the world, right? I love that kind of stuff. Yep. The Stanley Tucci like type shows. Like those are the things that I really wish there were more of those. You know, I got to do that.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:10:27)
Mm-hmm. Before they're the paranormal channel.

The Nimble Crew.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (1:10:48)
I did get to do those like with the Kamau Bell show I got to do and just see the country like that was an amazing thing to like to be able to do that. Did that for Vice. A lot of the Vice shows that I did were very much that was Vice's style and doing Wong's world and doing a food show using food as a jumping off point to talk about for politics. That was an incredible experience. So I love that kind of show. I wish I can come back. I know that's not everyone's cup of tea but I think there's a there's a place for everybody and like I like to live by I said the the infotainment type world. I love

seeing that kind of stuff. So I am glad to see that there's more history stuff coming. Sadly, you know, I wish there was more on history. I do love those like those big shows that they do where it's like Lincoln or Grant's. I love those kinds of things. I love that Netflix is doing a lot more history too. And then I just finished up a Vietnam series on Apple Plus that I thought was fantastic. It was the one where Ethan Hawke is the narrator. So highly recommend that one too.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:11:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

yeah,

I think there is, and there's a lot of reasons for this happening, I'm sure that you're already aware of, but I do see a return to history, blue chip programming, like,

Derek Helwig (1:11:52)
Have you seen the Americas with Tom Hanks? Just saw it the other day, happened to catch it on TV and it was about like looking at sperm whales and how they eat and they attached a video camera to a sperm whale. saw it eat this giant squid.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:11:55)
No.

Is it Nat Geo?

Derek Helwig (1:12:08)
No, it was NBC, which I was like, wow, that's incredible that NBC is doing this very planet earth type thing. But I, and of course you have Tom Hanks voice. You can't go wrong, but I loved it. And I was like, wow, I would love to see more of that kind of stuff too.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:12:10)
okay. Yeah, yeah, Sure.

I think what is going to be the through line in a lot of our entertainment, I'm not going use the word content coming up, is just escapism. Whether it's to the bottom of the ocean floor or to the past, I think there's going to be a lot of that coming up of just like, I don't want to have a serious thought for the next four years. So how can we?

Derek Helwig (1:12:45)
Right, I mean, that's

a great thing you brought up before, but what makes the race the race? At the end of the day, it was a travel show, it was a relationship, as Bert always tried to say, but at end of the day, what made that even more unique is the armchair tourism aspect of it. So I really would love to see more of that kind of stuff come out.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:12:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. Yeah, if you asked me, I'd be like, every show that I've never been able to make is the show that I think should be out there, you but always, I think...

Derek Helwig (1:13:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:13:12)
I think ultimately I would like to see, I think it's tough too because, know, but I would just like to see more like younger people. I know that that sounds, but when I try to sell like young talent, young, you know, whatever, specifically if it's for design or culinary, it's going to those traditional linear channels that focus on those things who have an older audience. So then you don't want to alienate them and you're gonna like, and you're sticking with your,

Derek Helwig (1:13:20)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm. 55 and up, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:13:38)
the tent pole talent.

Derek Helwig (1:13:40)
That's

Madelyn Cunningham (1:13:40)
what is your approach to development? Obviously you have your buckets that you're developing for, but when you see a pitch, you know, or something comes across your desk, what is sort of your approach to getting that to the next step? Like what's your, what's your, how does your gut feeling play into it? You know,

Derek Helwig (1:13:42)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it's two different camps, right? Sometimes we are taking pictures from outside, other times we're coming up with it on our own. So the ones that are coming in from outside, a lot of that is, how developed is this coming in? You know, we have seen pitches where someone has literally turned in a half sheet of paper.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:14:03)
Sure, right.

Derek Helwig (1:14:17)
And that's it. And I was like, well, that sounds like a lot of work for me to do. And that might be tough for me to try and we got our own stuff that we're trying to do, right? So why should we get involved with that? So I think for us, it has to really stand out. this whole business is about breaking through the noise, right? So if you can't break through the noise with me as a development executive, how am going to break through the noise with a network?

Madelyn Cunningham (1:14:19)
Thanks for the logline.

Totally, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (1:14:41)
Right? So how much does that actually break with an audience too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So does it break through? And I think that's the biggest thing that we look for. So what, that, that takes a variety of forms, right? It could be something like, we have this celeb of talent attached to it. Okay. Well that like is interesting. Cause we know a lot of times that's what it takes. It could take the whole game.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:14:42)
with an audience and then to an audience, right?

That can change the whole dynamic, the packaging.

Derek Helwig (1:15:02)
Is it touching on those things that we talked about, those buckets of like, is there some sort of hope, diversity, passion, history, part of this story that our company gets to be a part of telling such an amazing thing? So I think that's a big thing too. Does it break through that noise is the biggest thing for us. When we're developing things internally, it really then becomes, do you want to spend so much time of your day working on that thing? Does it get you excited? Because if it doesn't get you excited,

Madelyn Cunningham (1:15:29)
Mm.

Derek Helwig (1:15:32)
How are you going to get somebody else excited about it?

Madelyn Cunningham (1:15:34)
Right.

Derek Helwig (1:15:34)
So, I mean, look, there are various shades of that. have, you know, our as with every development executive, right? They all have a giant slate of things. And there are things that like the creamers, the top things you loved working on.

And then you have other things that are just like really fun formats that we have gotten into where we can just spitball back and forth and you get these ideas flowing. Do you want to spend your time doing that stuff? And if you, the answer is yes, dive into it and have fun with it. You know, we did that for Table Wars. That was a lot of fun.

got to tell for Table Wars 2, helped I think sell it was like we had so many tabled puns in there. And like, you're like, what's a table pun? But like, you know, one of my claims to fame that I'll could go on my tombstone after making that show for Table Wars, one of my claims of fame was we had this section, you know, that section where everyone's getting their supplies.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:16:23)
Mm-hmm.

Derek Helwig (1:16:24)
Throwing in puns and calling it the table of contents, but that type of thing, you know, that's a terrible pun but like You create the world exactly and we created that world by doing that and just having that free-flowing back-and-forth punny type thing so much so that Home Goods loved it and they sponsored the table of contents and it got said by Tamera Maori in every single episode So yeah, you have to have fun with it. And if you can't have fun, you should be doing it

Madelyn Cunningham (1:16:29)
I love stuff like that. But you got to create the world. You have to create the world.

Love it.

You do.

Well, and we can debate all day long about if the model of like, takes literally two years plus more to even like, if I pitched you right now and you accepted it and we developed it and went out to buyers and it got made. So looking at how long that takes, you have to sustain your own excitement through development. Then you have to sustain the buyer's excitement and interest through paperwork just to get to the development.

Derek Helwig (1:16:53)
Hahaha

Madelyn Cunningham (1:17:17)
And you want to get to that kickoff meeting and everyone's still got to be interested. It's still got to be relevant. It's still got to be exciting. Then you're going into more development with them. Then you're looking for a green light. Then you're getting an out to audiences. So it really has to break through. Like you said, be exciting, be entertaining for not just you, but for everyone in an intentional audience, because it takes a long time. And I, I don't know how much longer the industry can sustain it because, because we're, but because of how quickly.

Derek Helwig (1:17:34)
for everyone.

Yes.

Yeah. absolutely. Yeah. It is. And we should be embracing that. Yeah. absolutely. And I look to embrace that as well to like, yeah, on how to use that.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:17:43)
and you know, you and can go on forever and that's why YouTube is becoming YouTube because everyone can put out their own work and there's no gatekeepers.

Agreed.

Agreed. Absolutely. Okay. Let's wrap it up with the, you've given some great advice, just throughout this conversation about rejection and continuing to try and never let go. But what are some other, you know, just the best piece of advice you can give to people in the industry, specifically in development, you know, who are needing some positive words right now.

Derek Helwig (1:18:02)
I hope so.

Yeah, I mean, I think I kind of said it earlier, but it was, it's that not giving up. You know, I know that's really hard to do. I know I can get down on myself sometimes. So I was like, I really believed in that project and I can't believe it went anywhere. Or like, you know, we just went out with two different true crime things that thought for sure that was going to go, everyone wants true crime and oh, nobody wants true crime. But they didn't want these, right? So it's hard to not take that a little to heart, but I think you can't, like I said.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:18:20)
Mm.

Right?

course.

Derek Helwig (1:18:42)
I have a person coming around, like multiple networks have come out in the last several months saying, hey, that thing you pitched me four years ago, where's it at? And like these things are cyclical. So again, I think that's my biggest thing of it's not a no, it's just a not right now.

but we're probably gonna come back to it. And the truth be told, executives go through networks pretty fast. So find out when that person was done, pitch it again, right? So I think that's the big thing that I would say to people. Just hang in there and find new ways. Take chances. I say that to my...

Madelyn Cunningham (1:19:05)
Yep.

Derek Helwig (1:19:21)
network executive friends take chances. Because you never know. the craziest ideas have been the ones that have stood out for the longest period of time. You look at things like the history of Survivor and how that got made and how many years that took to actually get on the air, to go through multiple countries, and to finally get on there and just completely revolutionize the way, you know, we, an industry, you know, with what Survivor did. So think about that as you go along.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:19:48)
How do you, when you're receiving pitches as a partner, I'll just ask this really quickly. What are some ways that independent producers when approaching you or someone like you in your position, like what are some things they can do regardless of whether you are interested in them, wanna partner with them that they can do to kind of remain top of mind for something in the future?

Derek Helwig (1:20:07)
Yeah, and we do this, we live by this too, because even though, I said, look, network executives and buyers, they are designed to tell you no. Your job is to make it as hard as you can that they would say no, and that you want them to feel bad, right, that they actually had to say no to this idea. We have taken that to heart, and so our materials are very well polished out, and when we do things, and we come at it from that approach, to the point where, yeah, we may get that no.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:20:21)
Yeah.

Derek Helwig (1:20:33)
But that person's like, I wanna find something with you. You guys, you have something about you, I wanna find something with you. So I think that same thing, if you're pitching us, we wanna be in that spot where, know, like, yeah, maybe that didn't go, but I wanna find the next thing with you. How can we work together on this next thing? We know you have this mindset that you found something. You found gold. Maybe somebody didn't want it right at that time, but let's find the next thing that we can find gold with.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:20:58)
Right.

Yeah, totally. And again, because we are going to be working together for a long time. So I want to work with you on something that excites me. I love that. I love that. Well, thank you. mean, it's just getting to dive into such an iconic show with you, talk to you about the course that you're teaching, and then get your perspective. Yeah, and people should talk about it more.

Derek Helwig (1:21:01)
Yeah, for a long time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 100%.

Sure.

I love it. Yeah, I love to talk about it. yeah, and if you're interested in taking the course, come

on down, take the course, it if you want. know, like I love teaching that course and I love teaching all of our, I taught most of our documentary courses at this point and to see the students really get to shine. I had one student last year that he ended up winning the Student Academy Award. I had other students who won Newport Beach Film Festival with their doc that they made for the final in my class. Like it's a very rewarding experience and you get to see what

Madelyn Cunningham (1:21:38)
So rewarding.

Derek Helwig (1:21:42)
really like about it too is I'm getting to see what the trends are that the young people are liking and that's something that's very interesting and I think more network executives should look at hey what are come to the class see take a survey of you want of what people are wanting because you might be surprised in what it is

Madelyn Cunningham (1:21:46)
Yeah.

Sure.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on, for sharing all your stories and knowledge and really looking forward to seeing what's next for you, what's out in the world. So thanks so much.

Derek Helwig (1:22:02)
Happy to be here.

Absolutely.

Thanks man.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:22:17)
I don't know about you, but I've always said that I would want to go an amazing race with my older brother. And I still, after that conversation, I'm still like, yeah, I want to do that. I feel like that would be so much. I don't know if fun is the right word, but it would be challenging. It'd be amazing. Not amazing. It would be very cool. It would be a unique experience. And I don't think my brother and I would kill each other. So what a great chat with Derek. Hope you enjoyed. As always, please follow, subscribe.

great review every little bit helps. You can follow us on Instagram at Unscripted Files Pod. Shoot me a message if there's a show you're curious about, a perspective you want to hear about. I've got some people in various other roles in the industry that are coming on to share and I'm really excited for you guys to hear. I appreciate you always listening and allowing me to share my own curiosity with you. That's all I got.

Have a great weekend and we'll see you next Friday on the Unscripted Files.

Thanks

Madelyn Cunningham (1:23:14)
The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.