Skye (00:00)
we were basically done with it or close to being done with it.

before she got out of prison and we had a version of the film without her in it. And then when she said she wanted to be involved, I thought it was an important voice to hear from because it sort of gave us a sense of the betrayal I think that a lot of people felt in Beale City when they found out

Madelyn (00:29)
Hey, happy Friday. Welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madeline Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Really excited for our guest today. She has been involved with some of the most buzz worthy documentaries of the past decade, from Girl in the Picture to Abducted in Plain Sight, and now to Unknown Number, The High School Catfish, which has

Everybody Talking has been at the top of the Netflix charts for weeks and has received countless reaction videos on TikTok.

Madelyn (01:04)
She talks about the through line in a lot of her projects and how she always prioritizes curiosity over judgment, especially when it comes to some of these really hard, really tough, bizarre cases that she's exploring, several of which have to do with parents making what feel like to us unfathomable decisions.

If you don't want any spoilers, go watch and come back to this conversation.

Otherwise, we're diving into everything and really getting into the nitty gritty.

let's get into it. Here's my chat with director Skye Borgman.

Madelyn (01:37)
Skye so great to have you today. How you doing? I'm doing really well now that I'm on with you. I was just telling you, were involved with some of my favorite documentaries ever Girl in the Picture, Abducted in Plain Sight, Unknown Number. I mean, just the ones especially that have caused quite a cultural conversation. How does that feel?

Skye (01:40)
I'm good, how are you?

I mean, it's such an interesting place to be. I'm super honored to be able to create some of these shows and it's really a wonderful place to be. It's nice, you know, I I think my whole perspective and my whole wish is to create documentaries that get people talking and where the conversation can kind of continue after the credits roll. And so that's always what I'm looking to do with the films I make.

Madelyn (02:22)
I mean, well, mission accomplished and we'll get into those water cooler moments here shortly. Another one I didn't even mention was Fit for TV, the reality of the biggest loser. How do you choose projects or what really draws you to a particular story?

Skye (02:37)
Yeah, it's interesting because I think there's not one thing that draws me to a story. A lot of times I feel like I'm drawn to stories, like especially with something like Abducted in Plain Sight and an even unknown number. There's stories that are a little bit confusing to me. I just, I sort of read about them or I'm looking at them and I'm like, how did this happen? that's, guess curiosity where I just want to find out or I want to, even if I can't solve it, I just want

to

dig a little bit deeper and find out how something like this could happen. And so that's incredibly interesting to me. I also, I wanted to do Fit for TV because I thought that it was not so much about, you know, kind of a takedown of The Biggest Loser, but more about a show about our relationship with our bodies. And I feel like it's such a universal theme and that there's so many people. think, I think it's might be fair to say that every single person on the planet has some kind of relationship with their body, whether it's good or bad. think we've

thought about it, we all exist in it, it is who we are. And so I thought it had a very universal theme and I really wanted to tell the story from the contestants point of view. So I think it's really a combination of things that make me curious, things I don't understand. And I'm always very interested in telling stories that have a female component to them, whether we're looking at a female heroine or someone who's committed a crime or what these different female aspects are. It's something that's

important for me to explore.

Madelyn (04:02)
Yeah, I noticed that through line as well. And I think it's really important. There's a maternal sort of through line as well, mother daughter relationships. Like there's some really interesting themes there that you really tackle so well. Talk to me just about your journey into filmmaking. Was it a clear path or something that's been a bit more winding?

Skye (04:24)
Yeah, I mean, it's been winding. I started out as a lover of theater when I was in high school. I started doing plays and I thought, is really great. I love this. You know, how can I make a living at this? And got an undergraduate degree in theater and then started doing a lot of traveling. And that's where my love for documentaries really started to percolate. I wanted to tell stories about real people. I wanted to tell stories that made an impact. And so I needed to sort of figure out what that meant.

And

so I went back to school and studied filmmaking and really started diving into documentaries at that point. But also from behind the camera. I I was a director of photography for 20 years before I made the transition into directing. And so that gave me, I think, a really great foundation of knowing how all of the different departments work, visual language, visual approach, how to get sort of subliminal ideas across through color and composition.

and lighting and all of the different tools that we have as cinematographers and how to bring that in as a director and you know what we can control, what we want to control, what we don't want to control and so it all sort of just really came together and then my first film that really got recognition was Abducted in Plain Sight and that was that was the one that really sort of tipped me over into the director's hemisphere.

And it got so much attention and thankfully, that was self-financed, self-produced. It was my production company that really took on the brunt of making that film. And thankfully, we were shopping it around and Netflix watched it and they were interested. And then it became kind of this juggernaut really on Netflix and really got a lot of attention. And that was a really great start for me. And then started directing episodes.

Unsolved Mysteries and Trial by Media and a couple episodes here and there and kind of got a foothold in Netflix, but I also worked in different networks. I worked with Oxygen, I worked with HBO Max. So just kind of figuring out what that pathway was and now it's kind of settled in for me with Netflix doing the most of my projects are with Netflix.

Madelyn (06:33)
Yes,

you seem to be the go-to for all of the frothy stories, but with Abducted in Plain Sight, knowing that you found it, you brought it to them, I know it's probably the other way around right now, how did you find out about that story specifically?

Skye (06:48)
Yeah, it was, it was really a circuitous pathway. friend of mine, a colleague really had, she was working in like a management office and like a manager, like an actor's manager. there was some big crime story in the news at the time. And she was just kind of thinking about it and the manager said, well there's this other crazy story. And she pulled the book off of her bookshelf and that manager also managed Jan Broberg.

and Jan had given her a book. And so my friend sort of read the book and she was like, this is a crazy story, but didn't really know what goes into making a documentary, how anything like that happens. And so she came to me and she said, is this something you'd be interested in taking on? And I was like, yeah. And reading the book, was a lot that was in the book. There was also a lot that was left out of the book. so that's where that curiosity factor, I was like, how could something like this happen? How can a little girl get kidnapped twice?

by the same man. And the two affairs, I mean guess this is spoiler if you haven't seen it, the mother and the father both had had affairs with the perpetrator and that had been left out of the book. And so as soon as I had sort of figured that out, which took some pre-interviews and interviews, then I was like, I could kind of see how the grooming worked. I could see how their sights were kind of off of their daughter. I could see how this manipulation was happening. And then things became a little bit more clear at that point.

Madelyn (07:43)
Yeah.

Skye (08:05)
Thanks

Madelyn (08:06)
Yeah,

I was going to say for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's essentially, yes, this man, this grifter sort of type, but really charismatic, befriends a family and spends a lot of time with the daughter and is able then to kidnap her once, get forgiven, get back in their good graces, do it again. I think she's 12 years old, 11, 12 years old at this point. And the resounding...

question why this became such a cult phenomenon was how does this happen? And so when you do dive into this material with the Brobergs, Do you still walk away from the story saying, that's still insane, I would never let that happen? Or do you kind of over the course of the project, are you able to

build and develop more and more sort of empathy for the situation.

Skye (08:53)
mean, honestly, I think it really goes back to the curiosity and that sort of guides me a little bit more than the judgment. I don't even want to say judgment, but then, you know, sort of forming any sort of feelings about things because it's constantly kind of an unearthing of facts and details and circumstances. so all of that unearthing sort of adds depth and breadth and nuance to the story.

Madelyn (09:01)
Mmm.

Skye (09:19)
it's always trying to sort of remain open-minded to hear the different things and look, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do, know, obviously you know things happen and you're just like, my god, but then to sort of dial it back and try to get perspective back again and try to always approach things with as much sort of balance and listening as is possible.

Madelyn (09:41)
love that leading with curiosity and not judgment. I think that's a really beautiful way to approach your art and just a really beautiful way to approach life, especially with these nuanced conversations. Were there any moments during that project where your jaw just dropped? Obviously you had read the book, you knew a little bit, but was there anything that was revealed that you had to of fix your face and just take it in?

Skye (10:05)
You know, it's funny because with that project, I feel like what I learned the most was that you question everything and believe anything, right? So it's like you're constantly because, so here's the thing, right? I had read in some court documents or something I think that we had gotten, you know, that Birchtold had said something about an affair with Bob Rober, know, Jam's dad.

had kind of dismissed it because I was like, he's lying. This isn't real or, you know, and I dismissed it and then didn't really think about it again. And so I was disbelieving it from the moment I read it. And then later when I was talking to Bob and he told me that a version of that was true. And then I thought back to this thing that I had read that I had just dismissed. And I'm like, I can't do that. can't dismiss everything I read. It may not be true, but I need to give it a little bit of space

Madelyn (10:52)
you

Skye (10:58)
and let it be true if it is true. so that was something I think from that film that I really take forward with me in the films that I've directed since then.

Madelyn (11:07)
Yes, 100%. Even if the narrator seem unreliable. And a good exercise for you in these other things you've done as well, when you have to have uncomfortable conversations like that, and there's a lot here, but when you're confronting someone saying, did this happen, are you typically the one doing the interviews? if so, how are you approaching the uncomfortable conversations like that?

Skye (11:12)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'm typically the ones doing the interview, the one doing the interview, and I'm always approaching it, I mean, it goes back to that state of curiosity to find out what each individual person has to say and to try not to put ideas or thoughts into their mind, but to kind of get to...

what their truth is. And sometimes they don't know, sometimes I don't know. You sometimes we never find out. And sometimes that's just buried so deep inside, or it's something that's so unreachable for somebody that we're never going to know. But ultimately, it really is just approaching the interviews from a complete place of curiosity. And preparation too, I have to say. Preparation is a big part of it as well, to know, you know, to know as much as you can before going.

Madelyn (12:12)
Yes, and that, yeah.

Skye (12:21)
in to the interview, you know, I mean, I spend a lot of time and working with other people creating these gigantic lists of questions and topics and things that we want to discuss. so I've I'm looking at that and studying that and putting that together and working with people to put that together before we go into the interview. And then I never look at that document. And so it's having that preparation in me so that when something happens and I want to dig deeper into something, I know what that is and really how

having the story kind of, or at least a version of the story in my bones before sitting down with a person is really important to be prepared to talk to that person, have the emotional intelligence to do it, have the physical intelligence to do it, and just be able to kind of take in everything that they're giving you, which is a lot. It's a big thing to kind of sit down in an interview chair with two or sometimes three cameras pointing at you and lights going on and sort of make that person

feel like they're in a safe place is probably the biggest part of my job.

Madelyn (13:22)
Being able to know the material intimately so you're talking and wait consulting notes. so that you can be present with the person because they'll give that to you in return. And that's really what you need is their presence, their focus,

What does your prep typically look like for something like this?

Skye (13:39)
I mean, it's pretty intense, and it's different depending on the project sometimes. I like to get involved in a project early on. It's figuring out what the story is, figuring out what the plot points are in the story, as well as what the themes are, those ideas that go beyond the plot points or where these plots enter into themes that are bigger and more broader reaching.

And so it's a lot of reading. It's a lot of, you know, I go and I make playlists that sort of remind me of this. I listen to those playlists. I watch a lot of things. I collect a lot of images that inspire me. I try to just go out and listen, go to plays and listen to music. I walk a lot, you know, and so it's a variety of different things to kind of get away from the

a written page or writing all the time, but to kind of put myself into a space where I can let inspiration sort of come in rather than just trying to churn it in myself. And really a lot of it too is listening to the story that needs to be told or is that is asking to be told. And that shifts a lot of times from how I think it's gonna be when I'm doing my prep beforehand and then when I'm sitting down and doing these pretty in-depth interviews with participants.

you know things start to shift and shake loose there and then you get into the edit and it and it changes again because Maybe these facts don't quite line up or maybe you learn something that is you know Kind of revelatory and so you're changing direction with that and so so really just always paying attention giving the story The space to be what it needs to be

Madelyn (15:20)
Yeah, absolutely. when you were working on this, did you finish it completely before you took it out?

Skye (15:27)
it's funny because we finished a version of it and then had applied to festivals with it. And then we'd gotten into a festival and I had been looking at it and was like, need to, I felt like Jan didn't have enough of a...

Madelyn (15:30)
Mm.

Skye (15:42)
a voice at the end of the film and I'm like, need to do another interview with Jan. And so we had gotten into a film festival. I'm like, my gosh, I'm re-editing the last 30 minutes of it, you know.

Madelyn (15:44)
you

Skye (15:51)
And so we re-edited that and for the most part that that film was it. I mean, I think that we probably did some, you know, a sweetening mix and some color grading and things like that. from the time it went out onto the festival circuit until the time Netflix bought it and broadcasted it was essentially the same film. The title changed. It used to be called Forever Bee. And when Netflix licensed it, they said, well, we'd like to change the title. They felt like Forever Bee.

and they're not wrong, right? They thought it sounds a little bit like a romance movie and I was like, yeah, I guess it does. If you don't know anything about it, you learn what it means as you go through the story. But so they wanted something a little bit more telling of what the story was about and so that's how we landed on Abducted in Plain Sight.

Madelyn (16:23)
Mm.

Right.

Yeah, well, it grabs you. mean, the tile on Netflix grabs you. And they're right. It tells you kind of exactly what happened. I think it's easy to look at that story and think that it's a story of neglect. But I think the way that you approach it, it's really a story of manipulation. And the larger conversation after, of course, people can focus on the parents and sort of what they did. But hopefully, the larger conversation that's stimulated after and that has been had is about

Skye (16:44)
Yeah.

Madelyn (17:04)
how to look out for these types of people. mean, did you have any sort of eye-opening moments of tactics this person used or anything where you were like, my gosh, this is something really important to look out for?

Skye (17:17)
I mean, the sad thing is, like...

It's pretty basic, right? mean, like how somebody manipulates somebody, how somebody grooms somebody. you can read a book and learn the steps and you can go out and do it. Like, it's terrifying, right? It's how you isolate. And you look at that in Abducted in Plain Sight and the isolation and how, know, Birchtold had these affairs with both of the parents and that helped him to isolate Janet, helped him to isolate both of them. And they were completely looking at something else.

and not this relationship with Jan and thinking that there was a relationship between themselves and Birch Toll. So they weren't even contemplating that this could be something with their daughter. you know, mean, I look from that film on to ones that I've done later, I've done a lot more reading and how somebody manipulates, how somebody indoctrinates, how cults work and all this kind of stuff. And if you put all the different things, know, all the different lists that they put in all the different books and

and all the different experts, it's pretty much the same thing. And so if we can get to a point where we're recognizing that we're somebody, that you see somebody who's isolating somebody else, you see someone who's getting power over somebody else, you see somebody who's putting threats out there, that you can start to recognize these signs, then hopefully that's what people take away from these films.

Madelyn (18:35)
none of which existed, no literature or resources or conversations like that were being had at the time that this happened. And so it is easier to have a bit of empathy and understanding for it because now gaslighting is part of our vocabulary. There's so many cultural conversations about this, how to spot it. And that didn't exist back then. mean, people barely went to therapy. So.

Skye (18:58)
Exactly. And even, you know, in the film, the FBI agent was like, he didn't even know the word pedophilia existed. Like that was something that was such, such a foreign thought to even the people who are our law enforcement, you know. And so it is like when you look at how far we've come from the 1970s until now, I mean, it's we've come a long way in, knowing things and being able to, to look out for, for behaviors that just aren't quite right or that we suspect a little bit. So that's a good

Madelyn (19:05)
crazy.

Skye (19:26)
day.

Madelyn (19:27)
Yes,

thank goodness. Well, it's been a number of years since Abducted in Plain Sight, your most recent work, Unknown Number, and you mentioned one instance of trust and dive into everything that you see, but how else has your creative approach and your style evolved since Abducted in Plain Sight?

Skye (19:44)
I do a lot more prep work. I do a lot more of trying to conceive of like what, not how the story is necessarily going to unfold, but just a lot more thinking in terms of themes and who we can have to speak to those themes and how I want it to be a bigger story than just what the...

what this narrative is, you know? And so doing a lot more prep work. Look, it also helps that I'm doing shows now that have funding, right? So there's money there for a team of people to come in and help me. And that's huge because with Abducted in Plain Sight, you know, there were a couple of producers on it and myself, and we all worked full-time jobs. None of us were getting paid. We were doing it on our

Madelyn (20:16)
Amen.

Skye (20:32)
weekends

and on our free time and it took us years. mean, think from beginning to end that was five years. So it was a really long time and you know, your stamina starts to wane a little bit too when you're working on something. You're saying all of it, you know. So now, you know, I've got projects that are funded and so from the beginning, I have the opportunity to work with great people who are amazing at research who,

Madelyn (20:44)
and your sanity. Yes.

Skye (21:00)
can split up the outreach to participants who can sort of, I can bounce ideas off of, and they can bounce ideas off of me, and we can start writing out on cards and moving story pieces around. And so it's a little bit more of a team effort, and everybody's getting paid for their time, and everybody is working together. And so there's a lot more of an opportunity to do more in-depth prep. So that's been

nice. It's been really nice. And there's also schedules and budgets that you have to stick to, which are both good and bad. You know, I mean, sometimes, you know, there are things that you really want to do, but, it's just not that kind of a show. doesn't have the budget there, or you want a little bit longer and edit, but that costs money. And so you may not get that amount of time. And so you have to kind of go, all right, what, how do we use the time that we have in the best possible way? And so the, business aspect of it,

And that is something that I've grown to know better as well and approach projects and knowing, know, okay, is this an archive project? Is this a recreation project? Is this a verite project? What kind of a project is it? And that also sort of changes the approach or alters the approach a little bit when stepping into it.

Madelyn (22:18)
Yeah, a hundred percent

going from a self-produced indie doc to a Netflix, I guess we'll call it a blockbuster, because that's what it feels like. mean, every time you log into the app, we'll talk, we'll get into unknown number. I mean, it is right there along with K-pop Demon Hunters. I want to know, first of all, know, Abducted in Plain Sight, we know was your project. Did you get approached for?

Skye (22:33)
Yeah.

Madelyn (22:41)
unknown number and if so, was your initial reaction to the story and the material?

Skye (22:46)
Yeah, so it was a conversation between a couple of production companies, Netflix, myself, and it was, you know, we were all talking and kind of going, how do we do this? How do we do it, know, in all the different kind of shapes that it could take? And eventually, think what was most appealing to me about this story was to be able to put a story forward from

these young adults' perspective. When I went out there, they were 16, 17 years old, and they'd kind of been away from the actual events for a couple of years. And I really wanted to...

give them the power. didn't want it to be from the parents perspective. I didn't want it to be from the school's perspective or from law enforcement's. I wanted the kids who were involved in the story to really have a voice. And they felt the same way. I mean, that's why they all wanted to do this film is because it was such a traumatizing experience for them that they wanted to tell their story in a truthful way, in a big way so that maybe this isn't going to happen to somebody else or maybe somebody

also have an idea that this is happening and they can sort of extricate themselves from this situation or know who's doing it or whatever it is or even just to really kind of say cyberbullying is real it's a big deal a big big big deal and it impacts all of us and so so that was that was very interesting to me to really sort of tell it from the students perspective

Madelyn (24:12)
Yes, because it was all encompassing for them. And when you are in high school, specifically middle school at this point, high school, it kind of doesn't matter how much the adults in your life tell you, like, this doesn't matter now, like whatever. It is your world and it's incredibly immediate. everything everyone says about you, everyone's opinions about you, your relationships, they're so urgent.

And it's difficult to get a lot of perspective. And so I loved that you really allowed them to tell the story. How did you get Kendra to be involved? Was she always going to be doing it off the bat? Because, you know, frankly, and I know you've seen all the reactions on TikTok.

of the moment it's revealed that her mother is doing this, people mostly can't believe it because she had been in the doc and they thought no way she'd be participating in doing this if she was guilty. So what was the process of getting Kendra on board like?

Skye (25:07)
It's funny because the process is always one of trying to build trust. And I think the process honestly was more in depth and more sort of...

robust for the kids, you know, to give them sort of a safe place to make them feel heard, to make them feel comfortable, to really give them a safe space to talk about things. And that was, you know, going out there, meeting them, talking to them and all of that. With Kendra, you know, she was incarcerated at the time when we started filming the project and we sent a couple of letters out to her and didn't get a response and then heard through somebody else. So there was a lot of

hearing through other people, certain things. But eventually when she was out of prison, we reached out to her again to see if she wanted to be able to talk to this documentary. We were doing the story and it was just talking to her to see if it was something she wanted to do. she eventually said that it was and she came and sat down for us for an interview.

Madelyn (26:06)
So you were prepared to do it with or without.

Skye (26:09)
Yeah, I mean, we were basically done with it or close to being done with it.

early, mean before she got out of prison and we had a version of the film without her in it. And then when she said she wanted to be involved, I thought it was an important voice to hear from because it sort of gave us a sense of the betrayal I think that a lot of people felt in Beale City when they found out

it was Kendra. And I think a lot of the people in the audience felt that same kind of betrayal.

some from the film, which I also don't think it's necessarily the worst thing because I think that that level of betrayal and that level of just being kind of hoodwinked is what all of the participants in the film felt. And so being able to sort of get that across was something that was important to me so that they understood the gravity of it that these kids felt.

Madelyn (27:03)
Yes,

it was a, you just felt the rug pulled out from under you, which I'm sure again, is what Lauren felt, what everyone felt who was, had been dealing with this for nearly two years. So it started off with one interview, but then like she was involved also in some light recreation of her on the phone. I mean, how did it build to where she was, a little bit of a bigger part?

Skye (27:24)
Yeah, it's

funny because it's like those, in my mind, I don't consider those recreations. It's funny because it's like that was B-roll or what I consider B-roll. So it was, you know, we did the, we did the interview with her and then she was checking things on her phone and we filmed her checking things on her phone. She was looking outside, you know, while it was raining. And so, so that was all, I mean, it's not like she was a part of it. Like we filmed with her for days and days. We had a few hours with her one day.

Madelyn (27:32)
Sure.

Interesting, yeah.

I see.

Skye (27:52)
and we got the interview and we got the B-roll that we got with her. There are recreations in the film where it's an actress playing her and playing the other mom, Jill McKenney, but that's not Kendra in there doing those recreations.

Madelyn (28:03)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, okay, okay. Because

I saw a couple of, like I was watching and I was like, what? Did they just ask her like, just look at your phone and text. Okay, so you just had a day with her.

Skye (28:16)
Yeah, half a day really, yeah.

Madelyn (28:18)
Did that

allow you, Skye, to feel like you spent a lot more time, if we go back to abducted and plain sight, with those family members, that mother, those parents, just a day with her, do you feel like that was able to give you a sense of the why here?

Skye (28:35)
No, I mean, I don't know that Kendra knows the why of it. I certainly don't know the why of it. I I think that there are some reasons that she was able to come up with. I don't know that any of us felt really satisfied with the answers that she gave, but I also think it's really telling what she doesn't say and maybe even more telling what she doesn't say or how she responds to something. That's really telling to me as

And sometimes, you know, when people say words, you can just feel that there's something wrong or that they're unreliable. And that's certainly how I felt with Kendra. I think there might be a little bit of truth to some of the things she says, but I don't know that I would necessarily believe everything that she said.

Madelyn (29:22)
Hmm. Yeah. mean, a lot of the internet conversation is around there. Everyone is basically saying, no one was mad enough for me. Like when the reveal came and Kendra is in the body cam footage, embracing Lauren as if she is consoling and protecting her against someone that is not even her was so disorienting. I mean, what did you think when you saw that?

Skye (29:48)
when people say no one was mad enough it's it it pricks a little bit because I it's also people saying sort of projecting onto others how they should be feeling and And I I don't know that we should be doing that. I really don't think we should be doing that I think every single person is entitled to feel however we feel and and for For them to be lashing out at Lauren and to be lashing out at Sean saying they should have been madder or they should have been

sad or they should have done something different. I'm like, these people don't know what this person is going through. so it's interesting. And it's, it's also, it's also quite telling that, you know, that this story about cyber bullying about this online attack is, is sort of responded to with

online attacks, right? And it's such an interesting thing, you know? So I'm curious about some of the people who say these things. And I kind of go, look, I think Lauren and Sean both were kind of reeling. And I just always think, you how would I react in a situation like that? And I honestly have no idea. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine just like screaming and yelling and raging around the house and stomping my feet.

Madelyn (30:35)
Ooh, tea.

Skye (31:02)
And I think I'd have to sit there and sort of process things a little bit. And that's what I see happening with both Sean and Lauren in that instance.

Madelyn (31:12)
Yes. and frankly, deep sadness, betrayal and confusion, you know, that all are taking precedence here over maybe rage or any other emotion. Do you feel like she knew or that she maybe felt like, yeah, like, like, or that she, that she had a feeling that it could have been her mom?

Skye (31:18)
Yeah.

Lauren? I-

I so. I mean, I really don't think she had any inkling that it could have been her mom.

Madelyn (31:43)
No, because the nature of those, mean, the nature of the texts, it's not just like, you're ugly. I mean, they are deep and cutting and also very sexual in nature. And again, that is incredibly confusing. When you encountered Lauren, it had been a few years. How was she? Like, did you feel like she had?

sort of process things because again, in that body cam footage, we see just pure shock, I think, and confusion. Where is she now?

Skye (32:13)
I mean, think it's gonna take a lot of years for her to completely process everything that's happened, if she's ever able to process all of it. I mean, I don't know if we can say that she should be done processing this in two years' time or whatever, you know. I mean, Lauren is, she's putting one foot in front of the other and she's moving forward in life and she's doing her sports and she's doing the things that make her happy and she and her dad have a different relationship now, one that, you know, sort of this trauma.

that happened with her mom sort of put her in a position where she's able to have a closer relationship with her dad. And so there's something really wonderful about that. I think there's a lot that she's gonna have to think about. the good thing now is that, mean, Lauren's 18 now, and so she's legally an adult. And so she has the power and the agency to make the decisions about whether or not she wants to have a relationship with her mother.

think whatever she chooses is right because it's Lauren's choice. And I know there are a lot of people out there saying, she never talk to her mom again, all of these different things. But I just feel like it is such a personal thing for Lauren and for Sean to an extent, but really for Lauren, it's her business, what she wants to do and the relationship she wants to have with her mom.

Madelyn (33:29)
Yeah. Do you, so do you know if at this point they've had any contact? Cause while you were filming, they didn't, right? Okay. Do you feel like Kendra sort of got involved out of wanting forgiveness sort of as a, maybe this is a step in the right direction to maybe healing or trying to fix the situation or take accountability?

Skye (33:33)
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know at this point.

Not sure. mean, you'd really,

you know, I'm not a psychologist. I wish I could look into people's brains and understand or know the reasons they do the things that they do. I mean, it's probably a question for Kendra. I'm not really sure.

Madelyn (34:06)
We all like to play armchair psychiatrist, including me and the rest of the world, but this was such a digital heavy show. I can't help but think we're gonna be getting more and more into digital crimes in the digital age. And so when you knew that you were approaching this with a lot of text on screen, know, hundreds of text messages,

messaging back and forth, you know, where did you sort of get your inspo for how you were going to approach something that had a lot of screens and it was very heavy in the digital world?

Skye (34:35)
Yeah, I mean, honestly, a big help to me was sort of friends, kids who were around this age and kind of just talking to them and kind of going, how are you communicating? know, is it, know, because, you know, we're all of these different generations communicating with these different platforms and they were all like a lot of Snapchat. And so they were able to sort of talk and I could, I could show them some of the more benign messages and be like, what does this sound like? Does this sound like a kid? And they're like, not, that sounds like somebody trying to be.

Madelyn (34:40)
Mmm.

Skye (35:05)
it, you know, or whatever it was, you know, that they were able to give me a lot of pretty good perspective in terms of what felt authentic and what felt a little bit forced. And so that, I think that probably, and just playing around on Snapchat and looking at these different things and figuring out, because I've never really done it before, and so figuring out how this communication worked and why this was sort of the communication method of choice for a lot of the youngsters at that

Madelyn (35:05)
Yes, yes.

Mm.

Skye (35:35)
time was pretty important.

Madelyn (35:37)
Yeah, it's wild how you can tell usually what generation someone comes from by how they text or how they use emojis or even if they text in a long paragraph versus a succession of texts. Like it's so interesting how the language of digital communication has evolved in and of itself.

Skye (35:56)
It is, I mean, and I think if you look at anything sort of closely enough, you could probably come pretty close to figuring out how old they are based on what their text message, or what platform it's coming in on, or whatever. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Madelyn (36:07)
Yes. It's like handwriting experts for texting.

It's wild. So you talked a lot about building trust and that that's a huge part of your process. You've handled a lot of these tough stories. Do you have any rules for yourself as a director that you bring into projects? Obviously you're always learning and evolving, but, and curiosity over judgment.

seems to be a pillar of how you operate, but is there anything else you sort of bring into projects that is consistent across anything that you do?

Skye (36:41)
I just try to shoot straight with people. I try to let them know what the process is like, let them know what the intention is behind it, and try to be as truthful as possible. And I listen. I listen to what their concerns are. And I try to maintain an open dialogue, either through myself or my team, as the process is going on, because it's long. I mean, from the time, it's intense when we're there and we're in production.

and then sometimes it could be a year or more before the project airs and so it's this thing that happened and then it's this other thing that happens and so just trying to be be have my team and myself available for questions that they may have.

Madelyn (37:23)
Yeah.

Have you, and you're right, it is this intense time and then it can be sort of a period of waiting and then it comes out, you don't know how it's going to do. In this case, it's blown up. Do you keep in touch with Lauren and Sean? Are they surprised at how this did? you talked to them about how wild this has been?

Skye (37:41)
So I haven't spoken in person with Lauren and Sean. I know that it's an incredibly sort of, it's a different experience for people who are involved because it's like all of a sudden there are a lot of people who are watching this and talking about it. And so it's always a really, really, really big deal for people. Sometimes, I know that for Andrea,

It was this thing where she felt seen kind of for the first time. And so it's different for everybody, but it's a big deal. It's a big deal when these come out for participants.

Madelyn (38:15)
Yeah, I can't

imagine. Like on the reliving side and then also on this new level of recognition,

Skye (38:21)
Recognition, really.

And this cyber bullying certainly is something that's a global catastrophe right now. And there so many young people who are feeling this in such a powerful way.

And and I do feel that that is something that happens in big cities and small towns equally and so I don't know that it's I mean maybe the way that it sort of happened may have some things that kind of keep it within Beale City, but I I don't I don't I think this can happen anywhere and I look I also think the way that law enforcement was involved to like this sort of diminishing the impact of what cyberbullying is and it's not like it's not murder

Madelyn (38:54)
Yeah.

Skye (39:02)
It's not necessarily thought of as a crime.

of violent crime until it pushes somebody to do something that is violent. I think we have to really kind of get out of thinking that way and to give the attention to it before something terrible happens. And I think they did an OK job. I think that law enforcement, the school passed it on to the sheriff and the sheriff passed it on to the FBI and they were able to figure this out. So I think they did a pretty good job at what they're supposed to do. And that maybe because it was a small

Madelyn (39:11)
rate.

Skye (39:34)
town happened in a more efficient way. If that was a big city and they're hundreds of these complaints a day, or I don't know how many it is, you're not going to get the attention that you got in Beale City. So I think that's that's kind of a two-sided coin.

Madelyn (39:44)
Right.

Sure.

you, is the re, okay, I'm glad you brought this up. Is the reason that, cause really tracking a burner phone seems like a pretty simple thing to do. So did the sheriff's department just not have those resources and until it was able to get booted up to the FBI, is that, because it felt like it kind of took too long to just do a simple tracking.

Skye (40:08)
Yeah, I mean, the FBI has just, it just has resources that your typical sheriff's department does in terms of especially with digital recovery and all of that.

Madelyn (40:12)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. But how, yeah, but I mean, think of how many people don't have those resources or can't get to the bottom of this or aren't taken seriously until something dangerous happens. Exactly. And it's still so incredibly damaging. Well, I hope, I hope and I know, I mean, there's so much conversation around this. And I really hope that this is able to spark a longer conversation about how seriously we take these things and not just.

Skye (40:26)
Right, so it never makes it to the FBI, right? Yeah, yeah.

Madelyn (40:42)
when something bad happens, but to prevent these things from happening because you didn't used to have, I don't know, people didn't used to have access to you all the time and now they can and it's a really scary thing.

Skye (40:46)
Yeah.

No. I know.

Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, you could get away from people when you went home, right? And that's not right. No, and that's so different now. You've got your phone as part of your body, basically. And those text messages come in all the time. And so you can get harassed even when you're in the safest space that you have.

Madelyn (41:00)
Exactly. No one's harassing you in your letter in your mailbox.

Right.

Yeah,

it's a lot of everything has two sides. I think the internet has been an amazing thing in connecting people. think it's also, as we're seeing, it can be a very dangerous thing. And I hope that this can lead and spark more conversations about how to be safe and for parents about how to keep an open conversations with your kids about what they're doing, who they're talking If you could go back and give your younger self a piece of advice.

Skye (41:30)
Yeah.

Madelyn (41:45)
What would it be?

Skye (41:47)
I think it would be just don't be so afraid. I mean, afraid of what people think, afraid of what you're gonna look like, afraid of if you do something, somebody's gonna think something of you. I just think it would be just don't care quite so much. Don't be afraid, don't care that much.

Madelyn (41:49)
Mm.

Yeah, no one's thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you, right? It's so true. Yeah. Okay. Well, you, you questions just before we wrap up, this has been so incredible and insightful. if you weren't directing documentaries, what do think you'd be doing?

Skye (42:04)
It's so true. It's so true. Yeah.

Yeah, honestly, think it'd be, I'd either be like working at like an animal rescue or like an orangutan refuge or something with, with animals. I'd probably be doing something like that or possibly working, you know, with FEMA or somebody to go to places that have been sort of devastated and try to sort of create some, some organization out of the chaos, something, something along those lines.

Madelyn (42:23)
Hmm.

Mm.

Do you have a lot of animals?

Skye (42:44)
I do, yeah, we've

Madelyn (42:45)
Do you?

Skye (42:46)
got a couple of rescue donkeys, a bunch of rescue cats, and a rescue dog. So we've got a whole farm of little rescue animals.

Madelyn (42:55)
I love that.

That's sweet. I love that so much. You say you've tackled some dark subjects. Do you sort of have a go-to palette cleanser when you're done with a project or how do you turn off a little bit and give yourself a reset?

Skye (43:09)
Yeah, I I find my most amount of peace in nature. I try to maintain a routine where I'm doing yoga outside, I'm taking walks outside, I'm out in nature as much as I can.

And that is really pretty good for grounding. When you're working on these projects, you spend so much time at a computer, inside, watching the edit, and you're sitting and you're hunched over. so anytime that I can just sort of walk away from devices of any kind and just be outside and smell the fresh air and just pay attention to things, that's where I kind of find some peace. Yeah.

Madelyn (43:52)
just touch grass and it's free.

We love that. Is there any sort of behind the scenes moment from your career that sort of makes you laugh every time you think about it, whether it's like a, I don't know, a mistake that you made early on or something that you look back on that you're really fond of?

Skye (44:10)
Yeah, there is one...

instance where I was, this is when I was a director of photography and we were off in Guyana shooting and the flights, you we had, was one flight a week that went to this place we were supposed to go to and we had missed that flight because ours was delayed. And so we ended up having to take a boat to this village and the boat took four days to get there. And so it was a crew of three, four people. And we were on this little 18 foot outboard motorboat with all of our gear packed in the middle of the

the boat and covered with a tarp because it was pouring down rain. And we got to the village that we were supposed to get to when we were filming. And I just, I always think about that because this was a crew that I've worked with for over 20 years, you know, and like I said, it's a small, small group. was four of us at times, it was five of us at times, and we somehow end up together in these wild, crazy places. But it was just about resilience and about, you know, not getting

angry about the circumstances we found ourselves in. We just kind of said, okay, how are we going to problem solve? How are we going to get to this village and not have to wait a week? And we got a boat and we got the gear on and halfway there, the captain was like, we're running out of gas too fast. We're too heavy. So we dumped our clothes because we needed to take the gear. We dumped all of our clothes. He's like, I've got a friend. So we dumped all of our clothes at his friend's house.

Madelyn (45:22)
So.

Skye (45:29)
along this river and he said, we'll pick it up when we come back. And so, so we got there with our gear and like the only like one set of clothes that we were wearing. And I just was, I always think about that and I always think how, you know, resourceful we were, how patient we were.

Madelyn (45:30)
my gosh.

Skye (45:43)
how you know because there was a lot of there was a lot of anxiety as well but there was nothing really we could do except except make it work and and that's what we did and so i'm really i'm really proud that we were able to do that and i really i really love this group of people because because we all work together to make it happen

Madelyn (45:59)
That's the beauty of doc, isn't it? it's always something new and you gotta laugh so you don't freak out. You know, you do, you do. ⁓ What, there a, is there a piece of media film, a show, a book that really shifted your perspective when it came to storytelling or at least was super inspirational for you?

Skye (46:05)
Cry. I know. Yeah.

You know, honestly, was probably National Geographic. I mean, growing up, my dad would get a magazine every month, I guess. And so he had this bookshelf along the wall that was just yellow because the spine of the National Geographic was yellow. And I just remember sort of as a young girl growing up, looking through these pictures and just realizing that the world was a big, beautiful, very diverse place. And it was so much bigger than the town I grew up in.

Madelyn (46:26)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Skye (46:46)
and it really inspired me to go out and to seek new experiences and to talk to people and to communicate and to find what is beautiful in the world. And that's probably the biggest inspiration, I think, of any kind of media type of thing for me.

Madelyn (47:03)
I love that. I grew up on Nat Geo as well. And I grew up in a household where there wasn't a lot of TV and if there was, it was only Animal Planet. And I remember having this Nat Geo boxed set of like animals and it had their stats on it and everything. So it's so funny that you say that because it really was a window into a world beyond your own. Yeah, it really was. I love that. ⁓

Skye (47:10)
Mmm.

Yeah.

The world. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Madelyn (47:30)
Okay, so you work a lot with Netflix, do you have a guilty pleasure Netflix binge?

Skye (47:34)
I mean, there's so many, like, I don't even know if I could, if I could, like, go down the list of them. And look, any cop show where there's some tortured, tortured cop at the center of it who figures something out at the end. I'm there. Any rom-com?

Madelyn (47:41)
Yeah.

Of course, yes.

Skye (47:48)
pretty much there. don't do much of the reality stuff. I know that's what you do a lot of. I don't do a lot of that. But any of the any of the just really mindless, well, the cop stuff, I don't think is mindless. I love that. But but the romcoms for sure. Yeah, that's that's it pretty much. And it's great. I love it all. I know. I know. I know. Yeah, yeah.

Madelyn (47:53)
Mm-hmm.

They do. Yeah. Give me, give me a jaded cop. You know what I mean? And like, we're, and we're, we're, we're good.

okay. So somewhere in last question, if someone were to make a documentary about you, what would the title be?

Skye (48:19)
Curious and confused, probably.

Madelyn (48:21)
I love that, Sky, I love that. That's great.

Aren't we all?

Skye (48:27)
I

hope so, I hope so.

Madelyn (48:29)
I love it. No, you, but, through your work, feel like you, you really are diving into subject matters and a side of humanity that so many people don't get to experience. And I think you do it with a lot of grace and empathy and are able to give us insights into those worlds and where hopefully we can approach life with a little more curiosity as well. So thank you so much. This is, this has been really wonderful and thank you for all your work and

Skye (48:51)
That's the hope.

Madelyn (48:56)
excited for what I'm sure is going to be a ton more projects out from you. excited to see what's next for you.

Skye (49:02)
Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure just sitting here talking to you.

Madelyn (49:06)
Great, thanks guy.

Madelyn (49:13)
Whew, what a conversation. was so happy to really get into it with Skye. I respect her creative process so much, the way she tells stories. a lot of the times I do come out of these conversations learning something with this one specifically, I absolutely did. approaching every story, trying to...

understand versus judge. Super valuable. Maybe you guys can take that into all your projects as well. Thanks so much for listening. Excited for some upcoming guests we have. don't forget we have our Unscripted Industry News with Emily Wilson dropping on Monday. Have a great weekend.