Jen (00:00)
I watched Silence of the Lambs the night before, because I was like, okay, how do I talk to people? I was like, okay, she's behind glass, talking to Hannibal Lecter, there's some distance. Everyone I knew was like, are you safe doing this? And I was like,

I know, like I guess, like I, we'll find out

Madelyn (00:16)
We'll find out.

Madelyn (00:24)
Hi, welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today, I have a documentary producer on the podcast, and we talk a lot about high risk storytelling, whether it's immersing yourself in an unknown culture or coming face to face with a serial killer for an interview. We've dive into all the ways she approaches this ethically as a storyteller and as a producer.

It's a really interesting conversation. Can't wait for you to hear my chat with Jennifer Tocquigny

Madelyn (01:02)
Hey Jennifer, welcome to The Unscripted Files. How's it going?

Jen (01:05)
Pretty good. How are you? Excited to be here.

Madelyn (01:08)
I'm so excited that you're here. Everything's good over here. It's a Friday, so, you know, I can't complain. was saying, I know, was saying that I love your background. It looks like the background of someone who's really well traveled and it looks like a collection of a lot of different things, which I can't wait to dive in with you. You've been all over the globe for your projects.

Jen (01:14)
TGIF.

I've been to over 89 countries and worked in like 40 maybe.

Madelyn (01:37)
That's crazy. The passport is stamped, baby. We got it going on. I love that. I want to get into one project that really stuck out to me when I looked at your IMDB was this project for Discovery back in 2020 called Expedition to the Edge. And it's about this family who wants to sail to the most...

to the Northwest Patchage. Like it would be, it would essentially be the most North anyone has ever sailed essentially, right?

Jen (02:08)
Right, yes. So basically...

Madelyn (02:10)
And it's

really perilous. It's like a very perilous journey. It's not a joke.

Jen (02:14)
Yeah.

for sure. so essentially how this project sort of happened was,

because the ice has been melting due to global warming, for the first time they had this opportunity, the Sea Gypsies, which is kind of a ragtag group of sailors, including a family. And they've done all these expeditions all over the world from the Amazon to Antarctica. And this one specifically, it started, I believe, over in the Marshall Islands, and they went all the way up to Alaska and then made the journey

And the goal was because the ice was melting, they had this very small window to be able to actually sails far north and potentially the goal was to reach Greenland, to go all the way over.

Madelyn (02:59)
That so wild. I hate that the opportunity was there because of climate change, but also so fascinating and really, really risky. You were part of the development phase for this and helping sell the project, but how did you find out about this group of state? How did this project fall in your lap?

Jen (03:19)
The project fell in my lap because I had previously worked on a project where it was called Patrol with director Brad Allgood and the, you know, I was working in my development desk job and they called me up one day and said, have an extra seat on this puddle jump, we're going to Nicaragua, we're going to live there for a month, like, do you want to come? And in that moment, I was like, I needed to get out of this desk job.

and I said, okay, like I booked a flight, quit my job two days later, flew into the northernmost tract of the Amazon, the Indio Maiz Reserve, and...

with a few people, with Brad and other team Camilo and we were picked up from this small airport that had a dirt runway and they came in their hollowed out canoes and we threw our gear into these canoes and we rode into the rainforest and we essentially just rode for a couple of hours and then they said, okay, this is where we're gonna make camp and it was a fully tree lined area and they machete the

The tribe completely just cleared the area, swung hammocks, and we lived there for quite a while.

every day had its own challenges, but it definitely was a complete pivot from sitting at my desk. But after that, really had, from that experience, I wanted to be making things. I think that was what I missed. There's so much of the development process where you just wanna be out there and you wanna be physically making something. And that was what documentaries

provided for me and you know in this this instance it's like you just had to kind of take that leap and book the ticket and go and so from Brad Allgood I had met Nico Edwards who was part of the Sea Gypsies and he had been filming their expeditions and really documenting what they were doing and

we were trying to figure out a broader audience for the Sea Gypsies project. And so that's sort of how that came to be. And when they were deciding to do this one specific expedition, it made sense to have them film this entire expedition. They were going to film it anyway. taking that idea and then being able to try to get it to a bigger platform for a larger audience.

Madelyn (05:43)
No, it's really interesting. So this is broken up into six parts for Discovery, but did you also like package it as a feature too?

Jen (05:52)
Well, so the Sea Gypsies have had many projects. They've had a film in the past. so much of the story. As you know, if you're filming for over a year, there's a lot more than six hours of footage. And so it's always a hard...

to be able to figure out and navigate like, okay, what is the story? There's a lot of other parties involved at that point. so there's always gonna be the story you make, what actually ends up coming out. And then there's so many other versions that could possibly be. So.

Madelyn (06:31)
Right. Do you think this project, this sort of limited six part series with no celebrity attached, know, no well known sort of TV talent would sell in 2026?

Jen (06:46)
I would love it too. I think it's a little harder when, you know, I think there's such an appetite for ordinary people doing extraordinary things and, you know, there's an audience for that but I think as far as the landscape with limited...

streamers and networks, know, they're wanting something that's a little bit more splashier and which may not be the, you know, hero story from Iowa or, you know, the man next door or, you know, those types of stories, but there, I hope that there's more of a landscape for those types of stories moving forward.

Madelyn (07:24)
I do too. And I agree. I understand the pitfalls of, we want this, we need this to be highly returnable. We needed to be franchisable. You know, we needed to be tent pole talent. But when I look at this and I just look at sort of, yeah, we're going to spotlight this group or this family or this group of friends who are, yeah, doing something extraordinary, taking a risk, doing something that is, has a time constraint, it's really incredible. And I

I want these projects to sell more. I want to see more of this. So I'm hopeful for that. A lot of your projects seem to have sort of even not so directly, right? This project speaks to climate change. And I know that a lot of your projects tend to have an underlying impact storytelling piece. Is that something that was intentional for you or just kind of happened because you are drawn to projects that have a larger?

Jen (08:01)
sure.

Madelyn (08:15)
message in effect.

Jen (08:17)
Well, I think the, for me, I, you know, if the amount of work that goes into making a film, I hope that it will say something, you know, whether it's on the social impact side or, you know, something different. And so the hope is that...

no matter the film or if it's short or if it's scripted, you know, doc series or whatever it is, podcast, that whoever's listening will be able to...

take something from that, apply to their own life or just change the way they think or feel about something, open their eyes to a new group of people or a culture that they've never heard of before. Because I think, especially in the documentary space, we have this ability to share a glimpse into people's lives that...

most audiences will never have crossed paths with. you you're taking these, taking audiences that maybe have never gotten a passport, have never left their home town, their home state, and you're able to bring them into a world that's completely unlike their own, yet there's so many similarities to the individuals and the protagonists and the people that it really opens up their eyes and their world, even if they're not leaving their couch in their living room.

Madelyn (09:33)
100%. You weren't on the crew for Expedition to the Edge. You weren't on the boat, but you mentioned before this project, Patrol, where you were extremely immersed in the storytelling and what you were doing. I want to dive more into that project and what it means as a storyteller, as a producer to

take up space in another culture, how you approach it, how you do it responsibly. how you approach these creatively and also ethically.

Jen (10:03)
Absolutely. So specifically for Patrol, the beloved directors of this, of them lives in Central America. The other one did Peace Corps work in Nicaragua. And they speak the language, so they're very deeply connected to the subject. And so I think that's something that can be tricky in the dock landscape, because you think...

if no one's gonna tell this story, like, can't I? You know? But I think there's also the question of making sure that you're telling the story. You're not coming in as this outsider and you're spending the time with the individuals and you're surrounding yourself with a team of people that...

Madelyn (10:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (10:45)
you know, whether they're from the community or they're well-versed in the subject. I think for documentaries, every single film, I feel like I get a master's degree in that subject. And it's all thanks to the people that are on the film, the subjects on the ground. And I think you have to approach it, any new project with just complete.

transparency and curiosity because like you're coming in sometimes you know nothing and you're like I'm I want to learn everything and I want to be on the same page as you and to be able to better tell your story.

Madelyn (11:22)
I love that. If you don't mind, can you give me a top line of Patrol? Like what was your goal there? What story you were trying to tell as you guys went and lived with this culture and with these people?

Jen (11:34)
Yes, so Patrol is about the illegal cattle ranching in Nicaragua. So conflict beef is a big issue. America is the biggest buyer of conflict beef in Nicaragua. Yes. So, yes, so.

Madelyn (11:45)
Conflict beef, I'm like, this is Drake versus Kendrick. That's literally what, I've never heard

that, that's crazy.

Jen (11:51)
So

if you go to the grocery store and you read the label of a beef product, sometimes it doesn't necessarily have to say where it's from. And so I believe there's new laws and regulations where companies have to actually address where the beef is actually from, because if it's from conflict areas, similar to palm oil with orangutans and Borneo and different things like that, where there's actually like chalk

Madelyn (12:00)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (12:17)
that needs to be like ethically sourced from places too and like a lot of products will now say like where they're actually sourced from so So the the project was essentially about this group of indigenous individuals who came together on a patrol to kind of go up against the the government and the illegal cattle ranchers that were coming in and destroying the last tract of the Amazon Which is their home and there's a lot of

communities that live in this region and it's a reserve but they're not being protected because unfortunately cattle ranching is a big business and they're coming in and they're burning the rainforest. We learned this in kindergarten that the rainforest is essential.

Madelyn (13:00)
Essential.

Jen (13:02)
is the lungs of the earth, you know, but it's an age-old story that people are out of greed or, you know, destroying forests that you know, interfering with wildlife and communities of people. So the story was really just highlighting and shining a light on that.

Madelyn (13:19)
Did you find yourself ever in a risky situation and how do you guys handle that? know, when you're in the middle of conflict, yeah. I mean, what is, so how do you handle that? What I want to hear about maybe a situation that you were in that you had to think on your feet and make a smart move.

Jen (13:25)
All the time, all the time.

Right, well,

A lot of it, so one of the shoots that was in Nicaragua that I was not there for, thankfully, the directors, they were shooting there in the Indiamayas Reserve and a hurricane for the first time, climate change, a hurricane actually crossed oceans, jumped Nicaragua, and the entire reserve was just completely obliterated and they were stuck there and they had a sad

light phone and they were told too late that

someone like what was coming because they had no idea when you're in the forest when we were there we had a satellite one satellite phone and that was the only way to contact the outside world you were sort of just off-grid and So you're having to deal with okay. How do you charge batteries? How do you do a generator like what are all these things you need? Meanwhile you're completely getting mauled by ticks and Mosquitoes and you know it's

It's definitely, it's not for the faint of heart and you know at night we would hear Jaguar circling the camp and they're like, do not leave your hammock. Like, just stay tight, you know. And so there were so many instances you're, you know, you're in order to take a shower, you're...

You're in the canoes, the hollowed out canoes where the monkeys are pooping in it and you've got a bucket of water with these crazy piranha fish in the river and you're trying to just clean yourself with water and it's constant, everyday challenges.

So on top of that, you know, the environment of it all, you're battling a lot of things. So thankfully, like on that shoot, we didn't encounter, you know, too much of a military or government pushback, but I know things have changed a lot now in the country.

Madelyn (15:36)
mean, listen, you wanted a break from your day job and something interesting and immersive. And so you definitely got what you asked for. there's also like, I think of the technical challenges too, just around like even little things like keeping stuff charged, offloading your cards. Like I just think like even those pieces, I'm like, how are you guys logistically managing this?

Jen (15:39)
Yeah, for sure. Yep.

All right.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Madelyn (16:01)
And I know it happens all the time, as a, just can't imagine sort of those, because it's a risk too as well, right? Like with your media,

Jen (16:09)
It is, it is.

And that's something that I know at one point there were, you know, the drones were confiscated, you know, there's things that happen and you're like, okay, you have to, in these types of scenarios, this isn't, this isn't like a larger budget film where they've got...

you know, three months of prep leading up to it and what have you. You're like, it's so run and gun. if, you know, if the cops are trying to confiscate your cameras, you've got to like have the camera, all the media cards like tucked in on your clothing so like they don't confiscate those or, know, different, different things. Hiding things, hiding memory cards in your shoes and different things like that. But that's,

It's, there's definitely a risk, but it's also, it's interesting with any of the true crime stuff too. It's like you're, some of these cases, you know, like you're encountering a lot of situations that I don't think most people would voluntarily put themselves in, so.

Madelyn (17:11)
Yeah. What do you feel like was your biggest takeaway as a storyteller from that particular project?

Jen (17:16)
The biggest takeaway was integrating and really being on the ground. I think there's a lot of times where on projects you're working remote and you're sending a team out, but I think to better understand the people, the story, the community, it's imperative to actually be on the ground. And I know a lot of times,

you're sent out in the field and what have you, but it's like, that's such an honor to actually be meeting the subjects and be living how they live and really integrating into their lives. And I think it really helps to be a better storyteller because you're able to have a glimpse of their POV and...

better help tell their story to the world and whatever platform that may be, I think that that's super important because everyone's lives are so different and having that opportunity to actually sit next to somebody in their home or in the jungle or be eating what they eat and just walking a day in someone else's shoes as the saying goes.

I think that's the biggest takeaway and I think it's hard sometimes because our lives are so busy and we get swept up and everything but it's like if you have the opportunity, if you get the call that there's a seat on a puddle jumper going to the jungle, like take it, like.

Just say yes. And I think that's the whole thing with like serendipity too. It's like you, serendipity doesn't just happen while you're sitting at home. Like you have to actually walk outside of your house and for things to happen. So, and that's also the best way to hear and learn about stories too. So it's just actually taking that chance. So.

Madelyn (19:05)
I love that.

I love a say yes attitude always. I want to know, let's take it back because I want to know, what let you get this caught again on a puddle jumper, but why you like what experience has, how did you get into the industry and what experience led you to the point where someone was like, Jen is the person we need to call.

Jen (19:08)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I growing up, I loved movies. I had always wanted to work in some aspect of film behind the camera. I loved taking pictures and, you know, making videos as a child and love the Wizard of Oz and was just really inspired by, you know, singing in the rain and these movies that are like about the making of movies. And you get this little glimpse into like what it would be like to actually work behind the scenes in the movies.

Madelyn (19:42)
Hehehe.

Jen (19:54)
And so I went to college in the South as a student athlete, but I grew up dancing and so I always wanted to work in film. So University of Alabama, Roll Tide. ⁓

Madelyn (20:03)
Where'd you go to school?

you did? Roll Tide, okay.

Jen (20:09)
Yep. So I was on the dance team there and but I knew I wanted to come out to California and so every summer during college I came out and interned over the summers and that's sort of how I got the start of just like okay like what is the path and I sort of took the unconventional path and

I, right off the bat, worked for a director and then was just sort of navigating my way through the narrative development space. One of my first jobs was at RKO Pictures, which they had a moment, I think they just consolidated again, but that was just such a, again, yeah. But.

Madelyn (20:48)
again.

Jen (20:52)
Working at some of these iconic places, I ended up, was over at...

Warner Brothers and it was just the like walking around the studio lot is just like no matter how many times you're on the Warner Brothers lot it's it still feels special it still feels like this magical place whether there is nothing shooting there or there's a lot shooting there it any chance you can go and walk around there like their their prop area with their store with like all of their different things from like the Casablanca piano to

Madelyn (21:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jen (21:24)
the chandeliers from Phantom of the Opera. think that's what's So that's sort of how I got my start. was on ⁓ the development side, worked at bunch of different production companies and then...

One of the development jobs I was, I took my vacation and I was like, I gotta just go do something crazy, something so different. And I'd always wanted to go to Kenya. And so during my allotted week vacation that I was given, I, which people should take more time off. That's the real thing. I went and I taught at a school in Kenya and when I got there, the teachers were

strike and so they're like we actually need you to teach like can you teach math and science and all these different things and the after teaching for the week I the the school really really wanted a music program and so I was like okay like I am NOT musical I played piano and I was like five but like that's it like I'm not maybe I was like I played violin in like middle school because we were forced to pick an instrument but um but

Madelyn (22:14)
Wow.

Jen (22:36)
So when I came back to LA, I ended up being put in touch with two women working on a documentary about recycled orchestra called Landfill Harmonic and originally approached them to expand that project. The recycled orchestra that could be expanded to all different territories, could be going to the school in Kenya, so much opportunity there. And they said, well, we're not gonna do that until the film is done, but you can help us with the film in the meantime. And so,

I got to work helping them with whatever I could. And I learned so much about...

the documentary process, know, an independent documentary trying to raise financing, but also had this huge impact campaign with it. you know, seeing the direct impact of the community that was associated with the film, but also people that actually, you know, watched it. And that was something that really, that sort of just was this huge pivot moment where we were

the film ended up showing at AFI Fest and we had, they brought in all these kids from around Los Angeles to fill the Chinese theater. And it was completely packed. I think there's like 900 seats in that theater maybe. Completely packed 900 with kids from the community. And the film is mostly not in English and you had kids from all over the community and.

it completely just opened the eyes of everybody and it's like, oh, this is what I want to do. Like it's not just entertainment. There's also this underlying message and there can be a takeaway to a film while still be entertaining. And then,

the I Met Brad All Good for the Patrol Project on that project and as many things go, it's who you know and they're like, do you wanna work on this? Like, I know you like to travel, like here's this and I think that's something too which has helped me a lot along the way is just being very nimble, if you will, where...

my friends will call me and be like, where in the world are you? Like that's the best thing. Cause I'm like in India or like, I like I'm somewhere I'm in Nicaragua or wherever it is. And I think that's definitely helped because being able to just pick up and go, I think that's, I don't know how much longer, you know, that will last. So really trying to savor that moment in time.

Madelyn (24:43)
Thank

Yeah, think being a yes, like I said, being a yes person is a huge deal and being able to not ask too many questions and just go is the way a lot of incredible things can get made. ⁓ There's another project that you have that's really fascinating. It's a podcast, it's falls in the unscripted space. It's really a true crime project where you had to go...

Jen (25:01)
for sure.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Madelyn (25:23)
investigate, the story of the, did you say it was the Charles Manson of South Africa or something? I want to hear about Queen Havoc. Like this is so fascinating to me.

Jen (25:27)
female Charles Manson.

Mm-hmm.

So Queen Havoc is one of the many projects that has taken many different forms. And I think that's something that's been a big huge learning lesson of this where now when there's a project, you have to say, OK, what's?

Madelyn (25:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (25:52)
what serves the story the best? Is this a podcast? Is this a short documentary? Is this a scripted project? Like what is it? And also, is there a project that you can start with to then hopefully use that to launch Patent to other projects? ⁓

Madelyn (26:10)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (26:10)
So

a lot of there was this boom in podcasting and a lot of companies were utilizing podcasts as a way to, you know, test out stories per se. But also there was a there was a moment where a limited series were also very popular in the podcast space. And during that time,

I worked on Quain Havoc with School of Humans and iHeart and we had the incredible opportunity to actually physically go to South Africa and record this podcast. And initially, you know, we had set up interviews and everything was, you know, we had a pretty packed schedule going in, but we also gave ourselves the flexibility where

you know, once you start talking to somebody, they're like, you've got to talk to this person, or we got to send you here, here, here. And so it just started as this like, you know, we started in this one spot, and we ended up bouncing around to all these different people. And we ended up getting so many more interviews, because we were open to meeting new people, we weren't so strict on the schedule, which I know that can be hard sometimes to break out of, but but we really allowed ourselves to

Madelyn (27:20)
Yes.

Jen (27:24)
just sort of let the project take us where it needed to. And we ended up getting able to meet Quain Havoc herself, Cecilia Stein, in prison. And so that was such a...

Madelyn (27:29)
Mm.

I was gonna say, is she incarcerated?

Jen (27:38)
She is incarcerated and so essentially they, 2018, 2019, I think that's when they actually went to prison. So this was a recent story and it's, you don't really think that when you're, so many podcasts are done from your home. Like you're not actually going out and interviewing people in prison and what have you and.

Madelyn (27:59)
Right.

Jen (28:05)
That was also something where I love being out in the field and I think it takes a certain person to be like, sure, like I will walk into this prison and sit down with somebody and you really have to, you have to have a certain level of courage to just go, okay, like I'll do it, yep, and just figure it out. And that project specifically,

Madelyn (28:13)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Jen (28:30)
I remember I had no idea what it was going to be like going into the prison. I had never been to a prison, I guess. Looking back, I really had never been to a prison. Now I think about it. Never been to a prison. so going to a maximum security prison in a foreign country is very different. They have very different laws and...

Madelyn (28:41)
You're like, now that I think about it, that was my first time.

Jen (28:56)
I had written down questions, you can't have your phone, so I'd written down questions on a note card, like some beginner person. like, don't know what, I had put it in my pocket and they're like, absolutely not, you cannot do that, we're not doing that, so you can't bring anything in.

Madelyn (29:01)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jen (29:15)
I watched Silence of the Lambs the night before, because I was like, okay, how do I talk to people? I know this is not the best case study for this, but I was like, okay, she's behind glass, talking to Hannibal Lecter, there's some distance. I think that was the biggest takeaway. was like, ⁓ this is safe. Everyone I knew was like, are you safe doing this? And I was like,

Madelyn (29:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (29:40)
I know, like I guess, like I, we'll find out

Madelyn (29:42)
We'll find out.

Jen (29:44)
but.

I never felt not safe, but and you when we get in there that you just Nobody is behind bars or nobody it's in it's in a room and they're she's just sitting next to you like we're just a couple of gals chatting about the weather you know and it's just such a different it's such a different experience and I think because of that you know actually being immersed in

this world and, you know, sitting next to somebody, you know, versus over the phone. Cause so much, so much is over the phone now and so much is over zoom. And, ⁓ I think that's the biggest push is just to like get back out there and get back in the field. But.

Madelyn (30:18)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I totally agree with you. mean, think some of the even in podcasts have evolved from our like serial days to now. They are vodcasts on the home page of Netflix. But for me, even though it's audio only that immersive piece, I think of I think of Up and Vanished and podcasts like that were paying Lindsay like was like, I'm going to get in there like an investigative reporter.

Jen (30:31)
for sure.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Right?

Right?

Madelyn (30:51)
And

it's very, you know, it's exactly what you're doing. And as a listener, even without these visuals, knowing that you're in the space, knowing that you're there, it's so much more of a heightened experience. And so I agree. hope there's more that's just where we, listen, it all comes down to like budget, which I hate to talk about, but I hope that there's more understanding that these things are necessary. ⁓

Jen (31:04)
it is.

Of course.

Right.

Madelyn (31:18)
Did you feel in danger at all in the room or did it did it actually end up being pretty chill?

Jen (31:25)
No, I mean, it's definitely

you're playing a game of chess to figure out how to actually communicate and get information or just have a conversation knowing, going and knowing what someone has done. And like you're just navigating that conversation is, it's very tricky. But no, I really didn't feel, mean, of course there's moments where,

Madelyn (31:44)
Yeah.

Jen (31:48)
You know, in South Africa, there's load shutting where they cut power in certain regions for certain times and like, it gets dark. And so like, there's different, it's just such a different experience actually being there and being immersed in that. the, no, I don't think that it's, I think there's always like the cost of like the risk, you know, going into any of these projects where,

Madelyn (32:09)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (32:11)
I mean, you think about all the projects that are nominated or these are journalists that are going into war-torn countries and they're investigating these cases and they're really putting themselves in danger to tell the story. And I think it's so admirable that it's like they just want to get these stories out there and this is maybe the only way.

Madelyn (32:35)
Mm-hmm.

Great.

Jen (32:36)
I

think that's another level. ⁓

Madelyn (32:40)
Listen, that would

go on my CV. Can interview serial killer under intense circumstances. Like, that would go on my CV.

Jen (32:43)
Mm-hmm.

I know

it's it's crazy because you think You know if you go going back to other jobs. It's like well. Can you answer the phone? Can you do certain things and I'm like I? If you've worked on a documentary or any unscripted you can pretty much do anything you know if you can It is it is

Madelyn (33:07)
I agree, the skill set that you gain is crazy.

You mentioned some other, you know, the documentaries now that are getting nominations and things. I'm curious what you've watched lately that you really love or admire or, you know, any, any documentaries that you feel like you've really pushed the boundaries. I'm curious kind of who, who you admire nowadays in the industry.

Jen (33:29)
I mean, I think the big,

Jimmy Chin and Chy with Free Solo. I mean, I think that was the big, that was such a big turning point, I think, where you can have cinematic documentaries and...

Madelyn (33:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (33:44)
That's such a good touch point because in that project, you may be sitting on your couch, you may not be seeing a documentary in a theater, which is like amazing if you do, and there's the opportunity to actually do that. But it was such an incredible film where you were brought into this world that you knew nothing about. I've gone rock climbing in a gym a couple times, but like, I know nothing about this specific maneuver. Yeah.

Madelyn (34:09)
way harder than it looks, by the

way. muscles are sore that you don't even know that you had.

Jen (34:12)
Exactly,

it's so wild and they did such a great job and there's a lot of other documentaries like this now where...

Madelyn (34:18)
Yeah.

Jen (34:23)
they're really bringing you into this world where when they're actually doing certain maneuvers or like, you know how big of a deal it is if they get it. Or, you know, in some of these like soccer documentaries or like, I know nothing about this. If you teach someone a little bit of the mechanics of like this crazy maneuver or this play in any of like the sports films or anything, it's like you're able to actually have audiences root for you. And the people in

and it's like such a cool experience to take audiences along on this journey that you know they're going from they're going in doing nothing and then by the end they're like I can't believe he got this one hook you know maneuver or whatever it is so I think films like that there's there's so many films that are

hard hitting and I think this year at the Oscars they said the sad shorts or something. think that's why they described Conan O'Brien described short documentaries. And I think that the hope is to, know, on any of these projects that are very heavy is to have a little bit of levity to it and have some, you know, some side of it that

Madelyn (35:23)
Yes. Yes.

Jen (35:40)
is it doesn't make it as much of a sad short. So.

Madelyn (35:44)
Yes. When you're in a stranger shorts, I know you have a ton on your slate. You mentioned something earlier when you were talking about Queen Havoc about what form a doc, a nonfiction project should take.

So you have this sort of marketplace strategy of what's going to work, but then there's also what does the story deserve? What can the story actually prop up? Is a featured doc too long? Can we actually tell a more impactful story in short form?

So I'm curious, when a nonfiction project comes across your desk and it's not quite so obvious what form it should take, it's just an opportunity, how do you go about figuring that out?

Jen (36:26)
I think some of it depends on access and the story. So for some documentary projects, I have some that are like...

putting ideas together from scratch is, you know, is most some people you as well like probably do where you're like, this is just going from a nugget of an idea. Like, can this be expanded? Should it be expanded into a feature or is there really only enough story for a short? I think that's that's the struggle because, you know, features has a better landscape to possibly sell and there's more platforms for features. But at the same time, it's like, are you really

Madelyn (36:47)
Mm.

Jen (37:04)
this out too much where like you don't want your audience to go this could have been a short you know ⁓ but I think it's also depending on the story so for for some subjects

Madelyn (37:10)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (37:16)
they don't wanna be on camera. So it's like, okay, if you really have to tell this story, maybe a podcast is the better route because they don't have to be on camera. And if you don't wanna have half your film with blurred out faces, maybe that's the route or maybe it's a scripted project that is loosely based on their story or maybe there's a different route that...

like serves the project better or maybe it's a piece of this story that could be a part of other stories. That's something too is, you know, is this enough of an idea for a full feature? I think that's like, that's always such a question. And you want to see your whole of heart says, yes, yes, yes it is. But it's, you know.

Madelyn (37:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jen (38:06)
time will tell and I think that the other hard thing of recent is like there's so much pressure to know how the story ends, like what's the full story? And that's also such a hard thing for documentaries where you think about, I think the movie Blackfish, the one about the killer whales.

Madelyn (38:24)
Mm.

Jen (38:25)
pretty sure, I saw an interview with the director that it originally was about the trainers, it was not about the fact that these killer whales, like all the conservation side of it, sort of, that wasn't really a part of the story until they started doing a little bit more digging and research and shooting and they're like, we have to pivot and that wouldn't have...

been allowed should that be somewhere that's like, what's the full story? How does it begin? What are the act breakdowns and like, is this full scope? And I think that's the flexibility I feel like has changed a little bit where everyone wants to know how it ends.

Madelyn (38:54)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (39:05)
You know, yes, you can give it, you can say, yes, here's what we think, but we also need the flexibility and the time to go, okay, like, could this pivot to be something better? And I think if you have that ability, which a lot of times falls with independent projects where you have, you're not, you know, forced into a certain container of what this has to be.

Madelyn (39:17)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jen (39:32)
And that's, I think that's the tricky thing is, and the push is to actually be able to have that time to go give it some air and go, okay, is this the story? You know, are we closing the door to all these other possible endings because we're set to this parameter of what it, what we originally wrote the story as. So I think that's the hardest thing.

Madelyn (39:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's a luxury.

⁓ Yeah, no, mean, listen, getting to finding the story and getting to figure it out as a luxury, you know, in again, an industry that's so risk averse budgets are tight, which is why the sort of

Jen (39:59)
Yes, yes.

Bye.

Madelyn (40:10)
doing a lot of storytelling on things that are already adjudicated or it's based on an article and we're gonna retell it, but like going into something that feels open-ended is a bit of a luxury. But it's interesting, I actually, feel like the era of the short doc is like about to explode in a big way, regardless of Conan's comment, know, Netflix is putting short docs on their platform. I think buyers are gonna get a lot more, you know, hip to acquiring them.

Jen (40:29)
Right.

Madelyn (40:38)
I don't know. think they're about to have a big moment. And I say that as someone who has several in the works right now. And for a lot of different reasons. Again, it comes down to funding. Can we get some brands on board to back it? They're quicker. There's a lot of different factors. But there's beauty in, obviously, the doc feature. And there's a place for them. But I do think the short is going to... And it's tough, too. And you know this, the festival circuit.

Jen (40:45)
Yes.

Madelyn (41:05)
Shorts get the literal short end of the stick on the festival circuit too. We're starting to like, there are shorts only festivals, but they're typically not prioritized and features get all the buzz and like, but I do think things are starting to change as again, as budgets become less and less, resources become less and less, but filmmakers are still trying to make things happen. And so I think we'll start to see them get hopefully a little more love on the homepage and at the awards.

I want to know if there's a world that you haven't dove into that you're curious about.

Jen (41:39)
Well, I am

think the, well some people are getting more into verticals. I would also like to keep pushing the short docs. while I have sort of...

Madelyn (41:50)
Mm-hmm.

Jen (41:54)
been in a bunch of different spaces. I do think the short docs is a valuable space and especially with how things are moving forward with verticals and with social media and how people are consuming projects as well. I think the short docs will have a resurgence or we will make it happen. So we will make the resurgence happen.

Madelyn (42:14)
Yeah, we're gonna do it.

100%. Are you, what's, let's see. I'm curious to know, like is there, okay. You've been to 89 countries. What do you want to be your 90th?

Jen (42:32)
I'm trying to hit a hundred countries this year, so I have a I know I know I Have never been to Japan. I know that's kind of a crazy thing. I think like There's all there's like if you've traveled outside the United States you've typically gone to London Japan or Costa Rica, I feel like that's such a

Madelyn (42:36)
Okay.

⁓

True.

Jen (42:58)
Italy, also Italy. you've got this like convergence of those are sort of like the main places. I feel like the bulk of people have been at least one of those. And so I've never been to Costa Rica or Japan. So I want to my goal is to climb Mount Fuji. So that's so I'm hoping to do that this year. I know it's

Madelyn (43:01)
Yes.

wow.

Jen (43:25)
It's a little hard, but I'm up to the challenge.

Madelyn (43:29)
You interview serial killers, baby. There's nothing that's too hard. I love it. I love that. Well, it's been so amazing to hear your perspective and your story. What you do is so incredibly important and crucial. So I'm so happy that I got to have you on today to share it. Thank you so much. And fingers crossed for Japan this year and Mount Fuji. Absolutely. I love it. Manifestations.

Jen (43:32)
I It's true.

I know, it's gonna happen. I will summit Mount Fuji this year, so.

Madelyn (43:57)
I feel the need to add many more to-do list bucket, list things to my list this year, thanks to Jennifer. Hope you enjoyed that conversation. Don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review. We love it when you do that. And we will be back next week with another long form conversation with another creative in the unscripted industry. Thanks so much. See you next time.