COle (00:00) And I meet this guy and I say, what do you do here? He says, you know, I'm Mr. Magic's right hand man. That was his job description. And I say, ⁓ and what'd you do before this? And he said, I used to be a bank robber. And said it as though like, he was like, I used to work at Arby's. You know, it was just like, like that was my former job and this is my current employer. And... And he tells this incredible story about how basically robbing banks led him to Magic City. But it was stuff like that that like that was not recorded anywhere. There was no way to know that that was going to become, you know, a key story in episode one. Madelyn Cunningham (00:38) Hey everybody, welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of unscripted entertainment. I'm really excited for our guest today. He is a writer, author, producer, director, political commentator who is responsible for one of the most exciting docu-series this year, Magic City and American Fantasy, all five parts now out on the Starz. fascinating to talk to him about the nuanced conversations of the 40 year history and legacy of the Magic City Strip Club in Atlanta, the dancers within it, the family who owns it, and its influence on Southern hip hop, Black culture, and Atlanta as an epicenter. This conversation is so rich, full of great nuggets, unseen things that weren't in the documentary from the likes of huge music stars like Drake, Cole is such an incredible creative and it was so amazing to talk to him about the stylistic choices, the visual choices and the conversations and people that were a part of it. I know that you'll enjoy this as much as I did. Without further ado, this is my interview with creator and EP of Magic City an American Fantasy, Cole COle (01:54) wait, now I can't hear you. Madelyn Cunningham (01:55) Hi, hey Cole, how are you doing? I'm good, where are you right now? COle (01:56) There we go, now I can hear you. Yes, I'm great. How are you? I'm in Philly. I grew up in Philly. I'm in my mother's house right now. My best friend's getting married next week, so I came back to prepare. Yeah. I get so many of them. I'm about to turn 30 in a week. All of my friends are getting married simultaneously. So I liked weddings when they were few and far between. I'm now a bit overwhelmed, but I'm excited for all of my people. Yes. Madelyn Cunningham (02:10) wonderful. Do you like weddings? Yeah, it's a lot. What wedding dress code is your favorite? Like what wedding vibe? COle (02:30) You know, black tie is simple, which I appreciate. I know what I'm wearing. But these summer weddings, sometimes I'm out there in the heat in this like three piece suit and that can be a lot. Madelyn Cunningham (02:42) agreed. When I have friends get married and ask me what dress code it should be, I say like, everyone wants an excuse to dress up. So do black tie, but not from May to August. Otherwise let people live. COle (02:51) Yes. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, you can't have me, you can't have me sitting out here in this like, you know, shadeless field when it's 85 degrees out. I sweat, I sweat a lot. So, yeah, but it's all good. I'm happy for all my people. Madelyn Cunningham (03:03) Yeah, exactly. good. Yeah. What wedding song comes on and you're just like, I am on the dance floor no matter what. COle (03:14) what is the song? I don't even know. I feel like Earth, Wind & Fire or something, Frankie Beverly, like something older will get me out there. And then as the night continues, we need the more contemporary stuff, the hip hop, the rap. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Madelyn Cunningham (03:20) Of course. Yes, once the elders leave, can bring in the like, we can bring in the goods, the stuff you'll hear at Magic City, I guess. so you're the, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're the creator and executive producer of Magic City an American Fantasy. This is a five-part docu-series on Starz that accounts for the past 40 years of this historical Atlanta institution that is so influential. COle (03:35) Exactly. Smooth transition. Madelyn Cunningham (03:53) in Black culture, Southern hip hop culture. And I was so excited to see this come out. I grew up only about two, two and a half hours outside of Atlanta and have always had a fascination with Magic City The doc came out around the time of the launch of another project that you work on, the Ralph Lauren's Oak Bluffs collection, and you did a complimentary short film for them called A Portrait of the American Dream. And while these projects could, to the naked eye seem kind of opposite in their approach, there is a through line there. every project you choose to be a part of. What do they have in common? COle (04:25) Yeah, I think that first, thank you for having me. And you're right that these two projects, the Ralph Lauren thing being very much of the Ralph Lauren aesthetic, which is like aspirational and clean and detail oriented. And then Magic City, which is like in so many ways chaos and a very opposite aesthetic. I think you're right, a lot of people reacted the similar to you is like, know, Cole, what are you doing here? But for me, they actually aren't nearly as drastically different as as people think. When I came to the Magic City project, I always thought about it in these like totemic American. advantages just because of how that city was set up. then ultimately, like, you know, building this empire and handing it down to his children, which is what he's going through the process of doing now. And his 40 year journey, his hero's journey is rife with all of the like blood and sin and excess that like American Empire building stories have, know, no different than, you know, a Joe Kennedy and a Carnegie and a Rockefeller. Like, like all of those people are afforded this like emblematic status because of what they build and because they're white. And Mr. Magic is not afforded that. And I really wanted to tell his story through that lens. And with all of the complications that come with it, and there are many, you know, like it's not it's not purely about blind praise. And I think that, you know, obviously, the Ralph Lauren piece trades on a lot of those same sort of American mythos. So everything I do, you know, the Magic City project, the Ralph Lauren project, the books I wrote before them are all about like trying to reframe, re-understand underexplored sides of the Black experience and the Black story. And hopefully, both of these, both in Ralph Lauren shining a light on this community that is really near and dear to my heart, but is lesser known. And then Magic City, which is this name that everybody knows, but people don't know the story behind it. I hope that both successfully do that. Madelyn Cunningham (06:16) Absolutely, Mr. Magic's story has all the hallmarkers of like an Odyssey, the ups, the downs, there's prison time, there's fires, there's a lot there, Was the family always on board for this? Like when you approached them, was there some hesitation? ⁓ COle (06:22) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. mean, mean, Magic, Magic had been open at that point when I was going out with this for like 37 years. And in those 37 years, I'm not sure Mr. Magic had ever given an interview. I think he did one. He did like one podcast that we were able to find. And that's just like very much. Madelyn Cunningham (06:36) Yeah. COle (06:52) If you know him, that makes all the sense in the world. You can even see this in the piece. Like he just has a very sort of reserve, laid back, happy to operate behind the scenes sort of demeanor. So the way the project came together was, you know, after I had the idea and we can talk a bit about that, like, you know. Jermaine Dupree and I, those were like the earliest conversations. He came on. Jamie Gertz, who was both an actress in her own right and the owner of the Atlanta Hawks, she was willing to come on. And then we went to Magic and that was the hard part. I mean, that took like weeks of probably months actually of talking to Magic and hoping that he would feel comfortable. you know, letting us share his story. There was a whole separate set of conversations with Gail Barney. There was a whole separate set of conversations with many of the dancers who were resistant. So, you know, I mean, they just, it's a hustler's business. And they, think, wanted to make sure they weren't being hustled and that this story that meant so much to them, you know, would be treated with the respect that it deserves. Madelyn Cunningham (07:50) I can totally understand having your guard up in that particular industry with so many assumptions, preconceived notions, bias. I can completely see why the guard was up there. So you actually were working with Jermaine Dupree on his memoir when Magic City kept coming up. so I want to know what about it made you go, OK, pause. Let me pivot over here. And I need to understand more about this. COle (07:57) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so JD and I had known each other at that point for maybe a year. And just as you said, we were working on a book together that was a memoir both for him and his father. And he was telling me I was spending a lot of time in Southside Studios, which is his studio down in Atlanta. And he would tell me these stories about, you know, him and Janet Jackson and Madonna and Michael Jordan and the leaders of this drug gang, BMF and You know a state senator like this like crazy collection of humanity that was all assembling in a strip club of all places and You know, I had been to Magic City once before, but I didn't really know much about the story. And JD was the first one to say like, Cole, you don't understand this place. You know, it's not like this place that you just heard from Drake songs. Like I've been going there testing my music for the last 20, 30 years. And it, you know, it's a real pillar in this Atlanta community. And, when he broke down some of the history. then, course, when I met Mr. Magic and really got a lot of the history, I was just like, like, this is the thing. you know, the book and I the book hopefully still will come to fruition one day. But but I remember just stopping in my tracks and saying, JD, like, this is what we need to focus on, because this is an exceptional story. And and that really launched the. the many months process of like hoping that the Barney family would be willing to trust us with it. But yeah, as soon as I heard some of the stories, I knew that there was something here. Madelyn Cunningham (09:38) Yeah, 100%. the club is like, it was like a great equalizer. is, you know, like you said, politicians, athletes, musicians, everyone is the same. And there's also this level of like, what happens here stays here. Like you, like this is, you're safe within these walls and. COle (09:42) Yeah. Yep. Madelyn Cunningham (09:55) And just again, getting that type of collection of people in one place is like so fascinating. I know that getting the family to get on board was a huge challenge. Were there any other challenges during development, any big obstacles that you encountered where at any point you were like, oof, is this going to get made? Because I know it was like like from then to now, what, like a four year process for you, right? COle (10:02) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, I think we're coming up on four years, which is crazy. We're probably at three and half or so. Where are the challenges? mean, every day, like, you know, one is, I mean, one one unique thing about this project is because of the nature of what it is on. There wasn't like IP to option or something like there wasn't. It's not like there was a biography sitting around that like laid out what this story would be for us. So as a result of that, like. We went into it knowing that this would be really interesting, but having no idea of what we would find. There's a character named Wolf in the first episode. He's throughout the series, but he's introduced in the first episode, who used to be a bank robber. And the way we found that out is like, I had never met this guy before, we're there to shoot Mr. Magic, and I'm literally out back by the dumpster waiting on us to load in. And I meet this guy and I say, what do you do here? He says, you know, I'm Mr. Magic's right hand man. That was his job description. And I say, ⁓ and what'd you do before this? And he said, I used to be a bank robber. And said it as though like, he was like, I used to work at Arby's. You know, it was just like, like that was my former job and this is my current employer. And... And he tells this incredible story about how basically robbing banks led him to Magic City. But it was stuff like that that like that was not recorded anywhere. There was no way to know that that was going to become, you know, a key story in episode one. So much of it was just like unearthing stuff as we went along. So that was both the challenge in terms of not knowing what the map was going to be, but also the exciting part of this was just the process of discovery as we went. Same with the archival. Like we had no sense. We were really prepared to like just have no archival and have to do recrees for like everything. And then so much rich archival ended up, you know, falling in our laps as we were like shaking stuff down in Atlanta. And then finally, and this is kind of maybe one of the biggest challenges, is that like... Just moving down in Atlanta. Atlanta is like a very different city than some of the places that I'm used to. I grew up in the Northeast and there's like a whole cultural element in Atlanta that was unfamiliar to me. And we really had to just like hustle down there to get stuff done. And that was like an every day you wake up and you have no idea when or how that day is gonna end kind of hustle. And it's hot, and it's hot. Madelyn Cunningham (12:38) And it's hot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'm sure, I'm sure as you were speaking to people, word got around and like more people would kind of come out of the woodwork. ⁓ I was thinking, I was like, I know like that copyright music was like a whole other, like a whole other ball game for you guys. COle (12:48) Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. mean, there's like the story of and this isn't unique to the Magic City project. I do think that it was like more heightened in the Magic City project, perhaps just because we did it independent and so forth. But like the the story of making a thing is a story of challenges, you know, and like and our if I think about our process, it really was like every week, like, thank God we made it through another week and still have a show. Madelyn Cunningham (13:07) Mm-hmm. COle (13:23) and we just kind of put those together for three and a half years until that show was on air. Madelyn Cunningham (13:27) Yeah, I feel like you can have the biggest story, the best of the best there, production still production, and it's still gonna do what it does and be unexpected. with Jermaine Dupri on, with this type of story, COle (13:34) Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Madelyn Cunningham (13:41) with so many entertainers and athletes, like you probably could have really had your pick when it came to a production partner, especially sort of a celebrity-fronted production partner. And Dream Crew ended up coming on. why was that the right fit for this project? COle (13:47) Mmm. Yeah, so Drake is like, I think there's like a generation of people for whom Magic City is identified with Jermaine Dupree. I mean, like he was so like the godfather of Atlanta in terms of music for so long and put so many of the cultural elements of Atlanta on the map. But then for an entirely new generation, of which I'm probably more a part of, Drake was kind of the biggest global proponent of this club. He says the name and the lyrics all the time. People identify this place, particularly globally, with Drake and his patronage of it. I wanted us to ensure that the team that we put together was really excellent. and represented all of these different concerns that we had. And if you look at who ended up coming together, JD, there is no more authentic voice for Atlanta storytelling than Jermaine Dupree. Jamie Gertz, there was no one with stronger relationships and who is an adopted daughter of Atlanta now that she spent so much time there in her relationship with the Hawks. What Drake was able to bring to the table was a really broad audience. And I wanted to make sure that this project reached as many eyes as possible because I thought it deserved that. I thought that like this story of Mr. Magic and the founding of this club was a story that could be iconic. And I think that what Drake brought was one authenticity as well. mean, he know, he calls a dancer in the in the show, which was really how we recruited her. Yeah, I literally just hung up with her a couple of minutes ago. She that was that was really how we got O.G. India. Like we could not get in touch with her and Drake in the middle of the interview. Madelyn Cunningham (15:20) Yep. Yeah. OG India, right? Mm-hmm. COle (15:31) called her, like that was not staged at all. So there was an element of authenticity in terms of his relationships with the club, but then also just a huge amount of credibility and audience comes with partnering with, you know, one of the biggest pop stars in the world. Madelyn Cunningham (15:45) Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm a 93 baby. I grew up on Drake. That's how I heard about Magic City. And I think it's like that for a lot of people sort of in our demographic. again, yeah, that access and that level of sort of, like you can trust me, come talk, come talk on camera, I'm sure was incredibly valuable. The style of this doc, I loved, I ate up every bit of it because... COle (15:51) Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (16:10) The re-cre was so stylized, the interstitial to camera, educational portions of like, here's what this is. Because club culture is its own universe. It has its own hierarchy, its own set of rules. And I feel like there was an element of you guys needing to educate the audience on some of this to really establish that. And these dreamlike sort of sequences, it was so fun to watch. COle (16:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (16:37) How did you land on that tone and aesthetic for the film? Did you go in like, from the jump being like, okay, I know that I want this to feel really different or is that something that evolved as you were capturing these stories and you were like, we've got to take a minute to have these small little educational pieces? COle (16:40) Yeah. Ciao. Well, I think the first where that really starts is with Charles Todd, our director, Chaz. We met at the beginning of this project. He's now become like a brother to me. And he is really a creative genius. I mean, just like a visionary. And when I was going out. looking for a director for this project, I wanted somebody like Chaz, who Chaz had done long form, but had a lot of experience with music videos at the highest level for Rihanna and Jay-Z and so forth. And I knew that he had just visual sensibilities that were really exciting. And when you consider the subject matter that we're dealing with as it to the dancers, there was a real opportunity to do something really interesting with these dancers and their art. and capture them in a way that was like tasteful and as you said stylized and highlighted like some of the athleticism of this incredible act. so visually I knew that we had a real opportunity here. And then also when you consider a place like a strip club Magic City, which is a strip club at the highest possible level, there's an element of fantasy that is really fun to be able to play with as well. I mean, we put it in the title, An American Fantasy, and we knew that that could play into we wanted something that that played on that that that sense of fantasy and unreality. And then finally, What's really fun about Magic City is that like no one is a reliable narrative narrator. And you're getting that constantly. Like there is no one sense of the truth for all of these stories that may or may not have happened in a club 30 years ago. So we didn't want to like a straightaway news reporting of the facts would have been like not true to form here. Like we really wanted to highlight the conflicting narratives and so forth. All of that came together for something that was going to be intentionally zany, intentionally all over the place, not in the sense that it feels disjointed, but in the sense that you're constantly being barraged with different images and sensibilities in the way that you are in the club itself. And that's kind of where we landed. And then the interstitial piece, we came into it with that idea. I think Chaz originally had the idea, and we talked a lot about which interstitials made sense. And the big short was something that was on our inspiration board. were like, yeah, we were like, isn't it cool when they cut to Margot Robbie? What if we did that, but it was a stripper instead? then... Madelyn Cunningham (19:05) exactly what I, mm-hmm. COle (19:13) And then we met Gigi and Gigi McGuire, who is, you know, an icon of Magic City, an icon in general. She was just so obviously the perfect person for that, that like it was something that was hypothetical until we met her. And then it was like, we have to do this. Madelyn Cunningham (19:29) Yeah, and I can't imagine, listen, these women are artists, and they are performers and theatrical So I imagine that directing those sequences and being a part of it was so fun, because I was watching, I think, yeah, I was watching part four, and I was just like, what a star. you can see why they're, why they are icons and why they have this like, COle (19:36) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (19:54) myth and legacy within the club because their charisma just like oozes out of them. And it was so, I love just putting them in their own scenes where they could have a good time and get into it and do it. Like I just, I really love that. Were there any, you you referenced the big short, which is exactly like those two camera explainers ⁓ was exactly what I thought when I saw them too. Were there any other documentaries or media that you've referenced when you guys were shaping this? COle (19:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was a few. I don't know that there was one visual inspiration. We had a visual deck that was a million pages long and we pulled from all over the place. But from a storytelling perspective, right before... Around the time I had this idea, part of the reason I had it was because I had just watched the Studio 54 documentary, which was great and so iconic in the archival they have in that, is incredible. But I remember watching it thinking like... wait, like this place was open for like three years and like Studio 54 is definitely iconic, but like, you know, we, we being black people, like have our own version of this down in Atlanta and it's been open for 40 years. And like, what does that require to keep something, a place like an establishment like that open for 40 years? So that was always something that was kind of on our board. Defiant Ones was something that was on our board just because they also a docu-series. And I really liked how they like, you felt the gravity of this tale. Like they did what we were trying to do with Mr. Magic, which was like, Jimmy Iveen, even if you've never heard of him, Dr. Dre, which you probably have heard of, like you need to constantly understand that these guys built a kingdom. And it felt big. And I didn't want... Magic City to feel small. I didn't want it to feel like, you know, the little family-owned shop on the corner, which it is, but like it also has had this huge cultural impact. So that was something that came up a lot. More recently, Paris is Burning has come up several times and we thought about that in terms of like how it examines like a pretty tight niche. culture but feels authentic and like true to that culture. So there were several, I could go on and on and on. Madelyn Cunningham (22:01) you're totally right with the Studio 54 point. Like only three years, was frankly kind of a blip on the radar, but is referenced constantly in pop culture and Magic City is as well. so trying to showcase that this is equally, if not more influential, when it comes to the songs that you love. I mean, the story's about all the songs that COle (22:04) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Madelyn Cunningham (22:27) were tested out as a testing ground at Magic City, like the Bombs Over Baghdad story. Whoop there it is. I mean, did you know this going in or were you surprised and delighted to hear about all the stories, all the songs, you know, know, in love from Outkast and everybody else, you know, having their debut at Magic City? COle (22:41) Yeah. I mean, we knew so there was one, I think the either Atlanta Magazine or the Atlanta Journal Constitution had done one like long form article about Magic City. That was not super long form, but it mentioned, I think it mentioned Wound There It Is. It might've mentioned a Drake song. Like we had a little bit of, it was basically the closest thing we had to a roadmap. But then so much, and I conducted, ⁓ many if not most of the interviews and so much of those interviews were just like total fishing expeditions. Like totally like, so big boy is there anything else you want to tell us about, know, like have you ever done some cool shit in magic and like just praying that the answer was yes and here's the story. And that's really how we came up on like the big boy bombs over Baghdad. Definitely we didn't know that until we sat there and talked to him. Drake had a couple of stories about his time in Magic that like had definitely never been recorded anywhere before. So really the whole Quavo and Coach K talking about taking bat and bougie there, we didn't know that. So really the whole idea was like, we know these people have a relationship with the club, we don't know what it is, if we can just get them to sit down. and give us an hour. If we just ask the same question 10 times, maybe we'll finally get something that is like a meaty, meaningful story. And in just about every case, we did. Madelyn Cunningham (23:55) Right? Yeah. you, so with Shaq story, the hundred million dollar deal, did you know that going in or was that revealed? COle (24:06) So Shaq had given, I had just watched his documentary, which might have been on Apple or something, and he tells a much pared down version of that story without saying Magic City in the documentary. But I was working on this doc on Magic City and I remember seeing that story and like my ears perking up and being like, I wonder if that was done at Magic. Madelyn Cunningham (24:20) Mm. COle (24:32) And then we worked really hard to get him and confirm that it was magic. And he was finally willing to tell it like the real story on camera. That was like, just getting that story was its own odyssey, but so worth it. like, he's, you know, he's such a fun, of all the interviews, like he might've been the most fun one. I mean, he's just so funny and is a great storyteller. Madelyn Cunningham (24:43) I'm sure. Yeah, when I saw him pop up, was like, no way. But there are so many big fish, though, that you did get for this doc. You've got Shaq, obviously Jermaine's a part of it, TI, 2 Chainz, Killer Mike, Nelly, huge names. And then you've got the dancers and the women who are part of the club in every decade, the 80s, 90s, 2000s today, who are, again, celebrities, artists, performers in their own right. COle (24:57) Yes, yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (25:20) Miss Show Me the Money, who's Gigi McGuire, OG India Strawberry, White Chocolate Platinum. I loved hearing from these women and hearing these stories. It was so fascinating. And I love how they're positioned as the ultimate R &D team for artists. How else did you try to frame them as like taste makers? COle (25:22) Yes. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (25:43) and shapers of Black culture because really that is exactly what they are. COle (25:43) Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm so glad you bring that up because it is rare for me to talk at this length about the project without getting to like who are really the stars of the project, which are so many of these women that we were able to capture. They, you know, I think that there are all sorts of preconceived notions about who the women are that dance in these clubs. And whoever is creating those notions has clearly never met these women. Because I met Gigi, OG, White Chocolate, Strawberry, Platinum, all of whom are women who now call me on. Like I said, I just hung up with OG India. I'm really close with. I think I talked to Strawberry yesterday. And Gigi and I texted last week. I'm really close with all of them. They've all become like family to me. Same with White Chocolate and I talk all the time now. Madelyn Cunningham (26:21) Yeah. COle (26:31) meet these women and you're just like, yo, these are some of the strongest, most charismatic, impressive people I've ever met. And we wanted to capture that. I think that one of the criticisms that I have seen is that we don't focus enough on the dark underbelly of this world. And I think that that dark underbelly... almost definitely does exist at many clubs across the country, but like we weren't doing a documentary about strip clubs. We were doing a documentary about Magic City. And in the case of Magic City, these women... are truly stars in their local neighborhood and have a lot of appreciation and love and adoration for the club that gave them that opportunity. So we wanted to capture their stories told by them, put them on the pedestal that they deserve, both as like entrepreneurs and as like athletes in this club and in other roles as mothers and several other things. And what is really heartening to me is now talking to them and them feeling as though the work that they're really proud of is finally being shown in a light that feels as though it's true to how they feel about it. The conversation I just had with OG is she just watched her episode and she was talking about how excited she was that like people will finally understand this world that she's been working in for so many years and when I talked to a lot of the women dance there or who did dance there, they feel that way. And that's really gratifying. Madelyn Cunningham (27:56) Absolutely, I can't imagine. mean, yeah, I think there are so many judgments and preconceived notions about this particular culture, but when you see, again, the athleticism, like we can talk about that all day. Like it takes such strength, the creativity. You know, each of these women have their own personas and their own performances. And if you've ever also like worked in the service industry, COle (28:06) Yep. Yep. Madelyn Cunningham (28:21) you understand that like every person you encounter to be really good at what you do, right? Every person you encounter, you're like slightly adjusting your approach. You read them, you kind of know what they want, you know what they're looking for. And so I can only imagine that these women are absolute experts when it comes to providing that experience for whoever they're sort of focused on. And I just, know the skill set is, is endless and I just admire them so much. COle (28:37) Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (28:48) I really am so happy that you have gotten nothing but positive feedback from them because I know you can like hear from the critics, but I'm sure for you, hearing from the people that it was about is really important and gratifying for you. COle (29:00) just quickly on that we had a we had a screening in Atlanta for the no one in the community had seen this project. We did we did a screening ⁓ at South by Southwest. Yeah, that was a an earlier version of the show and it looked a lot different. It was a different length. So no one had seen like the final version. And we did a screening in Atlanta about a month ago just before the network premiere. And it was like the exact capstone that Madelyn Cunningham (29:09) Mmm. It's South by, yeah. COle (29:28) you always hope it will be, you know, where Alan Begner, the lawyer and Gail Barney and ⁓ obviously the whole Barney family and then many of the dancers both past and present were all in the room. OG India was there. Many of the current dancers were there. to walk out of that, it was kind of unreal, honestly, to like be able to walk out of that and say, you know what, we were able to execute on something that everyone in this room feels really good about, which is not it wasn't like the only goal or, you know, like it's not even the primary goal. Like you want to tell a true story. But the fact that the true story that we told was one that they all are also excited about is just really special and really gratifying. Madelyn Cunningham (30:09) and you were able to do that too while still embracing the gray area and a lot of nuanced conversations, which we talked about before. You were saying that there's a lot of unreliable narrators and a lot of different stories. I'm thinking about sort of the chapter on like tip drill, right? Which was the, what was it? The BET after hours Nellie video with a lot of the women who danced it at Magic City. And it was, COle (30:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (30:32) scandalous and subversive and there was a lot of things we'd never seen before. And even just to that particular section, that few minutes of the series, you had the perspectives of the women who were part of it. And then you also had perspectives of women who witnessed it, know, from Spelman and who seeing this particular video sort of ignited a fire in them when it came to, empowerment and agency. COle (30:34) Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (30:54) and you sort of never came to a particular conclusion. You let everyone speak and then you sort of continued on. Was that something you were totally prepared for? not presenting one specific perspective or conclusion when it came to this culture, but ensuring that you sort of included all the voices at the time and allowed the audience to really get there themselves. COle (31:11) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the only way to handle, you know, really complex, nuanced discussions, which is what this is. I mean, the tip drill fiasco, that episode is almost definitely my favorite episode. I'm kind of showing my, tipping my hand here. But just because like the tip drill fiasco, think is so interesting because it... Madelyn Cunningham (31:28) Mm-hmm. COle (31:36) It is, the thesis behind that is the thesis behind this whole series, which is like, here is this thing that is very easily to be dismissive of that seems kind of silly on its face. But if you like peel back only one layer, you discover that like, this is emblematic of all of the issues that we're trying to discuss here. Like there's all sorts of questions of women's agency and empowerment and victimhood that are happening in that fiasco. And it was like a total Rorschach test for the culture, like you know, like you had like, holier than thou, you know, offended, upset, you know, pastors and you had, you know, the video vixen types who were like, wait a second, go get your money girl. And I think that like, I don't know that either of those are the wrong take. I just think that it's really interesting that they all exist about this one music video that frankly, by modern day standards, was probably is like people would not even get that pearl clutchy about if it came out today. that episode really excites me because after Nelly says his piece and he does get to say his piece, but he kind of exit stage left and then you have like four black women embodying, you know, four entirely different ends of the spectrum around what this what this meant for the culture. ⁓ And that's really exciting to me because I think they all come across eloquently and empowered and reasonable and it's kind of up for the audience to decide Who's right if anyone is right or like what to make of all of it? Madelyn Cunningham (33:03) Absolutely. obviously you have the universe of Magic City, but you went way beyond that to get a lot of various perspectives. mean, like you had former Mayor Keisha Bottoms, you have experts on feminism culture, Southern culture. So how did you choose who you wanted to include in the conversation? COle (33:08) Yeah. Yeah, I think that when we went into this show, there was the story of Mr. Magic and his rise and the building of his empire. There was the story of the city of Atlanta. and its growth and change over the 40 years of Magic City, particularly through a lens of entrepreneurship. There was the story of hip hop and how Southern hip hop essentially did not exist in 1985 when Magic City was opened. It is now obviously like the epicenter of hip hop and we wanted to make a claim that much of that happened in a very direct way because of this club. And then there was the story of the dancers, the women who worked there. And we wanted like the foremost leading experts in each of those four pillars. And that's how you end up with like such a... an eclectic assortment of people. like, yes, we got Marakeisha Lance Bottoms, who's able to speak, you know, better than anyone about obviously the political history and economic history of that city. You have Alan Begner, who, you know, looks a bit like a fish out of water if you like line up the whole cast. But he is the leading, you know, free speech First Amendment attorney in Atlanta and has defended everyone from like the KKK to local strip clubs to all on the basis of free speech matters. And, you the context that he was able to add around why Atlanta strip clubs are fully nude, for instance, was really interesting. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. And so that's another one that was just like, I think we found that in an article or something, and we were like, this is genuinely interesting, cool history that we should include somewhere in here. So we called up Alan, and he was the right man to do it. Madelyn Cunningham (34:39) I agree, that story was wild. COle (34:58) Obviously, you know, when you're telling the stories of the dancers, you want the dancers themselves. But when you're trying to look at it through a lens of women's agency, you also want, you know, commentators who understand. that from an academic standpoint. we had Jocelyn Wilson, who is in her own right, an incredibly accomplished academic down in Georgia. Joe Coscarelli, who's like the hip hop guy at the New York Times and had just written an entire textbook basically about Atlanta hip hop. So what was really exciting to me is like, yes, we have the flashy stars, have Shaq and 2 Chainz and TI, and they all do an incredible job of what they do. But also, We wanted to have weightier intellectual conversations alongside these fun anecdotes. And on that side as well, we have lesser known names, but people who are really the people to go to for those topics. Madelyn Cunningham (35:49) Yeah, it was really exciting. How did you come out of this project after a few years? Were there any particular things you were like, I was totally wrong about this, or I didn't really get it? Did anything really significantly shift your perspective on the other side? COle (36:02) That's a good question. I need to think about that. I'm surprised I haven't thought about that. I'm glad you're asking me that question. I don't know that I had convictions that I was like holding really tight to other than I thought that this was a really cool story. But what has been surprising to me is, how close I've become with a lot of the people involved. mean, these are like real relationships that I have now with, I mean, lot of these, know, Gigi and OG and so many of them have like met my family, I've met their kids, you know, like, and that's been really special to walk away from this project with it feels like a whole new community that I'm sure I'll carry with me. Madelyn Cunningham (36:31) Hmm. COle (36:40) The other one that comes to mind is that I didn't know magic at all, obviously, before this project. I think I did assume, I didn't assume some of the victimhood stuff that you're referencing, but I did think that it would be just a bit shadier than it is. I thought that like, Madelyn Cunningham (36:59) Mmm. COle (37:00) like the business itself and like all sorts of like illegalities might be happening in or around this club and that the women might have a different view of their employer than they do. Coming out of it like and that was challenged pretty early on and that was just a result of ignorance about you these people and how the business works. Coming out of it like this is a stand-up business and a stand-up business owner who you know, almost to a person, everyone that has ever worked for him feels as though it's the best thing they did. So I think that that's what I mean. That's how you keep a club open for 40 years. Like, if we had we were fully prepared to go into this and discover like some shady shit was going down and it might like totally like the doc might have to just turn left. And like we were ready for that turn, you know, and Madelyn Cunningham (37:40) Right. Mm-hmm. COle (37:48) And we just never really came across it. everybody just kept praising this place and their experience there and like they were the best years of their life and they wish they... like, so that's the story we told. Madelyn Cunningham (37:59) Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I loved Mr. Magic when he was talking early on about sort of like how to get the best dancers at his club. The solution was very simple, treat them well. And it seems like that has been a through line for the past 40 years. And it really does live up to that sort of mythos of it being this magical place. What do you hope, you know, I'm sure you've gotten so much feedback of people watching the doc. COle (38:08) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (38:24) What do you hope this adds to the broader conversation about Atlanta, Southern culture, Southern hip hop, black culture, entrepreneurship? What are you kind of hoping? viewers come away from this with. COle (38:37) I think that the same preconceived notions that we've spoken so much about, many people will bring to their viewing of this piece. think those stereotypes exist and I think that even if latently people will have sort of bought into them when coming to this piece. And if people leave this piece, being like, that is not the thing that I thought it was. Like that place isn't what I thought it was. Those women are not who I thought they were. That'll feel very much like we accomplished a goal. And if they think that like the project itself is not what they thought it was and wow, like there's so much, I thought so much more. There's so much greater intellectual heft to this thing than I expected. That'll feel really good. Cause I think that's what we were trying to accomplish. Madelyn Cunningham (39:20) Yeah, well, I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head. Was there an interview moment, and you've mentioned a few, but was there one that happened where you sat back and were like, my God, I can't believe we just got that on camera? COle (39:31) The bank robbing one is a real one. Drake, this actually doesn't end up in the show. Somebody asked me recently, like, is there anything great on the cutting room floor? And I like, I so wish we could have figured out how to put this in the show. Drake, Drake at one point tells a story about going to a strip club, either in Atlanta or Houston. Madelyn Cunningham (39:38) Mm-hmm. COle (39:51) and getting a lap dance from Cardi B before she was a rapper. Like Cardi B was just a dancer at this club. And like that was like, whoa, that might make news. And we just didn't, that didn't end up anywhere. And then in like a much more sort of wholesome and beautiful way, in the... credit sequences you'll see present-day dancers that we spent a lot of time with. we, and there's a former version of the show where that takes up a lot more space in the body of the episode. And when we trimmed the show down, a lot of that content got lost, but we spent like real time with these girls and we, know, ⁓ Chaz flew to Alaska to spend some time with Sinclair who danced under the name Miss Alaska and... Madelyn Cunningham (40:14) Yes, love those. COle (40:33) and several others. And there were like really tender moments between this dancer named Portia and her then newborn baby. That was like really, really special. following on from them, you know, we go to the screening and I get to see Portia and she's talking about her now three and a half year old baby. like that was just it was really, really special. Madelyn Cunningham (40:55) that I've, Cardi would have been a great voice to have in this because I've always thought, she talked about this early in her career, but like I think her as a former dancer, I think that is one of the main reasons she's so good. Like she just puts out bangers constantly. I love that nugget. Okay. I want to know what, COle (41:08) Yeah. Madelyn Cunningham (41:12) What songs were you like adding to your Spotify playlist over the course of this doc? What were you like, okay, I've got like, what is the, what is your magic city playlist look like now? COle (41:22) ⁓ man, okay, so early days of Atlanta, there's like rappers that like basically founded Atlanta hip hop that aren't appreciated as broadly but are known in Atlanta. MC Shy D, Kilo Ali, Kilo has like this old booty shake record that was like the first like Atlanta booty shake record. So those are the early days. You get to... the nineties and you're talking about outcast and like how they changed Atlanta hip hop. think spotty, Adi, dope, malicious, like references magic city. so there were at one point I basically went through and like, have a list of like every song I could find that references magic city in it. And a couple of those were, yeah. And they go back all the way to, know, like the early nineties. so a couple of those were outcast songs early two thousands. It's like the bling bling Jermaine Dupree money ain't a thing, you know, Nellie Madelyn Cunningham (41:58) Yes, I love that. COle (42:10) I should have mentioned Wound, there it is, that's a little earlier and that was a great, another booty shake record. Episode four, which just came out, we get into like the trap era and it gets just a lot meaner and like rougher and like... Madelyn Cunningham (42:13) Mm-hmm. you COle (42:25) hardcore and then you're talking about like jeezy and Gucci you're talking about trap or die like really rough tough music that I love and then episode 5 Drake and future and Migos take center stage and it's like all of the hits today right so like futures early mixtapes I loved even as a fan when they first came out ⁓ Madelyn Cunningham (42:48) Yes. COle (42:49) Him and Drake have a song called Plastic Bag that shouts out OG India, which she's very proud of. And then obviously the Migos did Bad and Boujee and several other hits in the club as well. Madelyn Cunningham (42:55) Yes. I love it. Okay, fun question. If Magic City had a signature cocktail named after you, what would it be? COle (43:04) Yes. my God. Named after me. I mean, don't have any... I'm known for being bald and having a big forehead. I'm not sure that that's like... I'm not sure that that's like belongs in the club. I think that Magic City... My pitch to Mr. Magic and Magic City is that they should have signature cocktails dedicated to each of the legendary dancers. I don't think so. Madelyn Cunningham (43:29) They don't do that already? ⁓ COle (43:32) I just had this idea this moment while we've been talking about it. like, yeah, Madelyn Cunningham (43:32) they gotta get in there. Yes. COle (43:36) there should be like a Gigi McGuire and OG India. There's a woman named Suga who we didn't get, but like she is constantly referenced. White chocolate, obviously. So there should be there should be like a signature. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Madelyn Cunningham (43:38) Totally. White chocolate espresso martini. Yeah, I love that. Listen, I'm big forehead club over here. I'm with you on that, I feel that. It's okay, Tyra Banks made it okay, right? She made me feel good. Yes, exactly. What unscripted TV are you loving right now? Do you love reality TV? Tell me, are you binging anything? COle (43:53) There you go, there you go. It's all right. A lot of brains. Exactly. Yes, our patron saint. Yes, yes. Yeah, I just, some good, I've known these girls for a long time and their show just dropped and I'm so proud of them. The Nader Sisters just had a show come out on, yeah, yeah, like, I just watched it. I'm not deep into reality TV often, but I love those girls and I think it's so cool. I was literally just with them the other day at their, for the launch of it and I'm just, I'm so happy for them. Madelyn Cunningham (44:20) yeah, love thy nadir. COle (44:33) What else am I watching that's unscripted? I'm going back and watching a lot of older documentaries. I just watched Paris is Burning again. I watched What's the one that James Carville won from the Clinton race? Shit the war room. I just watched the war room for the hundredth time As I'm thinking about like new ideas. I always find it's helpful to like go back to like classics that were Really impactful in their own day Madelyn Cunningham (44:49) Mm. COle (44:58) And then if I am watching reality TV, it's like trash Netflix, like brain rot till my eyes bleed stuff. ⁓ like too hot to handle. I'll just be honest. Like, yeah, like, like that is, and what was the other one? Perfect match. Like that is just like turn it on and hope that I still have like the same IQ points when I'm done. But, but yeah, I do that sometimes. Madelyn Cunningham (45:07) Like, love is blind, too hot to handle. Oh yes, yes. yeah. Yeah. We need a palate cleanser. What you do is incredibly cerebral. And that's what it's for. Okay, I know you're a fan of Jeopardy. So, okay, so if you are the answer on Jeopardy, what is the question? COle (45:26) Exactly. right. That's exactly right. Yes. ⁓ Wait, these questions are so good. ⁓ Damn. If I am the, by the way, that is like goals. Madelyn Cunningham (45:41) Hahaha like check done, bye. COle (45:47) I want it to be something like, I want the, okay, so I've done, I've published three books, I've written four, and then obviously Magic City and now Ralph Lauren, and you have like a really broad array of, you know, experiences. there and like topics and so forth. And if one day there was a Jeopardy clue that was like, name the guy that did and it's like four different, like it's like Magic City and then like something about like the Catholic Church and then something, you know, like just four like drastically different. Yeah, like, like that'd be really cool. Like if it was who is Cole Brown and it's just like these four like catch all like who the hell could have done these drastically different things that'd be pretty cool. Madelyn Cunningham (46:14) Yes, this multi hyphenate, yeah. I love that. I love that. Great. Last question. You you dove into Magic City working on another project. Was there anything you unearthed during this project that you're currently sort of diving into? COle (46:34) Yeah. Yeah, I I think that Atlanta has a lot of stories to tell and I think that it's like one of our most like, I mean, the South in general is just like so under reported upon if you consider the cultural impact that it's had. So like there's a few. There's a lot there, like without getting too far into it, there's a few different Atlanta music stories that I think. Madelyn Cunningham (47:00) Mm-hmm. COle (47:04) really deserve to be told and haven't been. You know, obviously there's scripted versions of some of the stuff we picked up on that I think really deserves to be told and hasn't been. So I'm moving on to all kinds of stuff now, but I'm really proud of like the relationships we built in Atlanta, the infrastructure we built in Atlanta, and I'd love to go back to Atlanta and keep telling some of those stories when I can. Madelyn Cunningham (47:27) Well, that's what happens when you leave it better than you found it and you enter the space respectfully. it just, again, just talking about the relationships you have long-term and is a testament to how you guys operate and how you went into this project. It's really admirable, really respectful. And we will all binge now all five parts of Magic City and American Fantasy on Star. So Cole, thank you so much for coming to chat and really looking forward to seeing what you do next. COle (47:33) Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for all the great questions. This was so much Madelyn Cunningham (48:00) I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Cole. When people geek out over my questions, it is like the best compliment ever. So thank you, Cole. you can watch all five parts of the Magic City documentary now on Starz. I believe they have a seven day free trial, guys. So you guys can get in there, get your free trial, binge all five parts. It is so, so worth it. It is visually stunning and there's so much story there. I highly, highly recommend. I'll be back next Friday with more incredible multi-hyphenate creative guests. Thank you guys again so much for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, follow, rate, review, and we'll see you next Friday. Madelyn Cunningham (48:32) The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.