Madelyn (00:00)
Hi, happy Friday. Welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today, I have a strategic development consultant from the UK on to talk about her approach to development,

differences in the UK and US market, and of course her time as the head of development at Hidden Light Pictures working for Hillary and Chelsea Clinton. I almost did no editing in this conversation. There was so much goodness here. Nikki is full of incredible information, which is why she also lectures at the National Film and Television School. So without further ado, can't wait to dive into this conversation with none other than Nicky Huggett

Madelyn (00:44)
Nikki, welcome to The Unscripted Files. How you doing?

Nicky (00:47)
I'm good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's very exciting to be here.

Madelyn (00:50)
I'm so glad that we're getting to chat and you're joining us from across the pond. You're a strategic development consultant. You've held roles as the former head of development for Hidden Light Pictures, which is founded by Hillary and Chelsea Clinton, worked at Newtopia, and you're also a lecturer at the National Film and Television School. And right now you're kind of in the freelance world, right? Is that accurate? I feel like that's what I glean from your LinkedIn. You're kind of doing your own thing right now.

Nicky (01:15)
Yeah,

I mean this is a brave new world for me. I haven't been freelance since I was like a jobbing producer on the road back in 2012, I would say. So yeah, I think it was brought about, my children are very young, they're four and seven and my mom is quite elderly. And it just got to the point where I just needed a bit more control over where I was working and when I was working. So it was quite terrifying, but it seems to be going really well, I think.

Actually, it works quite well for companies when budgets are squished that they can just have me sort of two days a week to help them pivot or help them understand how to pitch the American market particular for companies over here. So yeah, it's definitely seems to be going okay so far, still early days.

Madelyn (02:02)
Well, I'm so happy to hear that. mean, you have experience that anyone would die for. So it's so nice that like this offers you that flexibility. How did you get into your current career? How did you get into development? I would love to hear a bit of the origin story for you.

Nicky (02:16)
So I've always worked

across development and production, but how I started was a bit strange. My mom is a journalist and so I sort of always had an inkling. I wanted to do something, maybe be a writer or something like that. Weirdly, I studied geology, which didn't really help me in this trying to become a journalist. So I was working as a waitress, as many of us do, like trying to...

work out what on earth I was gonna do with my life. And I just kept applying for things that were vaguely connected to media. And the first thing I got was an internship at a company called Mentorne who made sort of a big political series called Question Time in the States and they did formats and documentaries and science films. And I sort of turned up on my first day in a suit, embarrassingly, with three other interns and we all...

It was amazing. It was the most incredible learning experience because being lots of genres under one roof, it meant that I could work across everything from entertainment, like big, shiny floor reality shows all the way through to really purposeful science docs. So yeah, I was lucky enough to spend two years there and it sort of set me up really for life really in this industry, is, which is, know how lucky I was to get that.

Madelyn (03:35)
Yeah, I to start there right off the bat is and kind of land in development, I think is so lucky. And it's so funny, I was a biology major, you're saying your geology, isn't it like so funny where you actually end up. But I try not to dismiss my experience in the sciences. I'm like, you know what, you this this job is so research heavy. You know, it's it's so much of what we spend our time doing. So all the experience has to be kind of cumulative, right?

Nicky (04:02)
Yeah,

and I always say to people when I'm teaching, because I think there's this real misconception that you have to be this creative blue sky idea person that comes up with ideas, and that's not me. I think it's my worst nightmare if someone says, let's go sit in a room and just throw stuff at a wall. I need external stimuli to come up with ideas. And I think actually the scientific mind that I have is really helpful because half of this job is going, well, what's worked? Like, what are the ratings? Like, what?

what can we potentially recycle from past TV gone by? So I actually think having a more analytical, potentially scientific mind can be really helpful in development.

Madelyn (04:42)
I'm so glad you said that because I wanted to ask what about your personality and how you operate matches so well with development. So you're saying that you kind of are more of an analytical sort of what right brain person.

Nicky (04:55)
Yeah,

I think definitely. think my other half is a true creative and I'm quite jealous of that in a way. But I'm much more, I think my old boss used to call it that we're either develop ideas internally and send them out into the world or we look at everything that's around us and sort of look for inspiration from lots of different places. And I think my personality, I just love facts and I love research. I loved.

so geeky. I loved school, I loved university, I just loved learning about things and so for me the joy of development is when you can go and hear someone talk about what they're looking for and analyse the trends, what formats are working. I love hanging out with distributors because they tell me about like what's working in the States or working in Asia. So but I think personality wise as well I do get bored quite quickly I think I like to

have lots of things on the go at the same time. I'm like a definitely a multitasker, which is also very helpful when you're a mom, you have to like do lots of different things at the same time. So for me, development is joyful in that you can pick the things that you're really passionate about and sort of flip between them. And then if something's really frustrating you, you can sort of leave it for a bit and then look at something else. So I think that's why I think personality wise.

Even though I've done both development and production and love both, think development, I will always be a development person. I think we're a special breed.

Madelyn (06:21)
It's so funny what you say about, you know, getting bored easily. I used to be really hard on myself about that.

Right. I'm really good at starting, not necessarily good at finishing. And I love development for that because you get to nurture a project, take it through, take it to market, hope it goes somewhere. And you're doing that with, you know, five, seven, nine, 10 things at a time. And it kind of has its life cycle. And then you get to go onto something new and something that's curious and interests you. And, and I love what you said about, you know, yes, sure. A development is, can be about you bringing a totally new idea.

and plucking it out of sky. But a lot of it is problem solving. It's looking at the market, it's analyzing, it's listening, it's seeing what's working, it's paying attention to trends and it's drawing lines. and I think that's what's so much fun about it. So it's so wonderful that you've got a taste of both and you're like, development is totally where I live.

Nicky (07:16)
for your sanity when you work in development, you have to have lots of things going on at the same time because if you put all your love into one thing and then it doesn't get commissioned or the commissioner leaves or the buyer just decides that's not quite right, then it's heartbreaking. It's sort of, I sometimes describe it like dating.

Like before I found the one, I dated quite a lot because, you know, you don't, want to make sure before you sort of devote all your time to that one passion project.

Madelyn (07:44)
Absolutely. Early in my career, I kind of put all my eggs in this one basket for like a year.

You know, and it like, it went really far and we were super close to production and it got shut down. And I just was like, I can never do that again. I can never do that again. So it was a great, it hurt, but it was a great lesson because you're right. You do have a lot, you know, to have a lot of things going on. How has your development sort of process evolved over the course of your career from, you know, the early days and, and, and how you approach it now?

Nicky (08:17)
I mean, I think when I was starting out, development was very much about relationships and not that it's not now, but it was very much my boss would go out for dinner with someone who worked at a channel and come back and say, we've got a commission. I pitched him, I sent him a text message and they got a commission. So it was much more about the sort of quick fire ideas generation than it was about really building out those ideas. I think.

Development has become a lot more like pre-production in a way in that you have to do so much more work and build those materials and get those access in order to sort of really hit the bar of what channels require and what they require in order to part with quite a lot of money. So I think my development style, I've become a lot more focused, I would say. And much as I love to multitask, I'm also very aware that

development needs to be focused and each company that I go and work for as a development person is so important to understand what they have permission to pitch and to stay within those guardrails. And I think otherwise as one very wise producer, I worked with once described development as small children playing soccer in that you'd all run one way. Someone says, there's a channel over here looking for this.

And so everyone runs that way. It's like little kids on a field playing football. So it's, yeah, totally quick, quick. So I think as I've kind of developed and evolved as a development person, I think I've just become a lot more brutal with myself. If I don't think something's going to sell, then I don't waste time on it. I've become a lot more commercial. I think it was very easy.

Madelyn (09:39)
Yep. Here's the new mandate. Yeah.

Nicky (10:02)
When I started out, it was purposeful, one-off documentaries that sort of, you know, especially working at the BBC and for Channel 4 in the UK, you know, the public service broadcasters and you could make incredible stuff and you still can, but there's still that, there's now that sort of encroaching, like terrifying mega tankers of the S-Fods that you have to compete with. So yeah, I've become a lot more focused and a lot more commercial and a lot more brutal with myself.

Madelyn (10:29)
No, I had a guest on last season.

Adam Newhouse and one of the big takeaways from our conversation was you've got to learn to put down your B projects and like your pretty good projects and focus on what you really feel good about because everything is about protecting your time and your resources and your energy. I agree, think that's something when you're starting out, everything is a brilliant idea, it feels

you kind of learn what is more promising than not, and you have to kind of learn to put more of your resources into the things that you know have a better chance and the pretty good stuff you got to kind of learn to let go.

Nicky (11:11)
Yeah,

yeah, my, I had a boss once who used to call them half dead mice. And he'd be, those were his passion projects. you know, you'd get £20,000 from here and then you'd go here and then you'd go to a festival and go around going, I've got this film. And so every so often he'd say, can I just have one? Can I just one? I'm just going to bring in this little half dead mouse and leave it under the chair and you can do what you want with it. And I was like, you can have one.

Madelyn (11:17)
Ugh.

Nicky (11:34)
One, if we get some other stuff commissioned. I mean, and I'm, it's hard in consultancy because sometimes when you're working with startups that are amazing producers but potentially haven't done masses of development before and don't know the market in that painfully brutal way that we do as development people, you do find yourself feeling like a really annoying agent or buyer going, I just can't sell that. It's a great idea, but I can't sell it. And...

Madelyn (11:59)
Yeah.

Nicky (11:59)
an

idea is only as good as where the place is for it in the market.

Madelyn (12:02)
Absolutely. Why do you feel like doc is so hard right now? It feels like it had its heyday where it was, I mean, busting at the seams and now no one wants to touch it. I don't want to touch it. It feels so hard, so difficult. The bar is high. But I mean, what is your take on where the state of docs in the industry right now?

Nicky (12:23)
I

think, yeah, I remember the heyday because Hidden Light started during that heyday and you know, you could sell a purposeful feature doc to Netflix for over a million and everyone would go, this is amazing and then it would get awards and it was, that's what we all dreamed of. And that sort of crazy time when the biopics, like the Elton John biopics sold for 16 million or something, which was just madness. But now I think

Madelyn (12:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nicky (12:51)
I think the main problem is there is a lack of the private funders. There's a lot of the private funders have sort of disappeared. Participant, for example, there's not so many funders that are looking for docs unless it's the really commercially safe options. So people like Universal Pictures are looking to replicate their success of Tina and those sort of big commercial docs that can play in, in, in, in theatres.

So it feels like there's a real lack, like CNN is starting to commission again, but they don't really do single docs and everything. A lot of the things they do have to be an international co-pro, which changes the way you develop. And then obviously the place that still remains is Netflix, but their remit is so specific in sort of that domestic true crime thriller model. So I think the problem with docs is that it's just, there are not that many places to take them.

The UK actually remains quite a good place for docs because of those public service broadcasters. So there are still sort of doc departments at the BBC and Channel 4. But gone are the heyday of those amazing umbrella strands that we used to have in the UK where you could, you know, it's quite hard to make a subject matter become a series and pull it out and elongate it. Whereas, you know, we used to have these amazing umbrella strands called One Life and...

cutting edge and you could go, I've got an amazing 60 minute film and there would be a place for it and people would know where to find it. But now in a world where everything is online and you have to get people to come to your film, it is incredibly difficult to get those docs to push through unless they're commercial. You know, Superman sold Will and Harper, but they are like a stardust. know, they just don't come along very often.

But I think someone said the number of docs that gets sold at Sundance is the 1%. And that is heartbreaking that you put that much time into sort of gathering funding privately and try and sell things. And also, I think we're in a sort of bit of a polarized society in that, you know, America anything political

as we found at Hidden Light, anything with any sort of political message will just not sell to a network. And it's kind of hard because docs are out, the whole point of a documentary is you're making a point, you're kind of trying to get a message across. And that's why entertainment is becoming the safer, sort of more commercial, more balanced bet in this, in 2026.

Madelyn (15:22)
Yes, I agree. I had a doc project that... It wasn't political, but everything is. Do know what I mean? And it was...

about the prison system in the United States and incredible access, article options, you name it, and no one wanted to touch it.

It's a tough market. mean, so what are your thoughts on, you YouTube is all the rage right now. I mean, if I was a documentary filmmaker in this day and age, I would just figure out a way to, I mean, I would just put it on YouTube and try to create a community there. I mean, what are your thoughts on even just self-distribution at this point in the marketplace?

Nicky (15:56)
I mean, I think

it's still really hard with YouTube. At Newtopia, I was looking at their YouTube strategy and there still are barriers to entry in that if you want people to watch it, it's a long burn. You've got to try and get it past a certain time and get ad sales revenue. The ad sales revenue is tiny. It's really hard to get those to break through unless you're sort of partnering with an existing channel. I mean, in this country,

Well, we've got places that you can go that have existing YouTube documentary channels that you can sort of place your film with. But it's still really hard. It'll be interesting to see sort of maybe potentially the growth of MUBI as a platform. We've just had one of our big documentary awards and the main, the one that everyone wants to win best documentary was a documentary funded by MUBI. So it does feel like there are new platforms that are opening

just was really struck by the docs that were really getting critical acclaim and being watched and nominated for these big awards that came from that platform. But I think YouTube is still it's still tricky. think a lot of we definitely find that a lot of producers are looking at it as a potential or we need to be on YouTube. We need to solve this problem. But

you've still then got the issue of how do get people to watch my stuff? If I don't have a creator attached, where are you gonna put it? Are you gonna put it on your channel? No one's gonna watch that. And then you've got lots of barriers and having to pay lots of money to YouTube and it is tricky.

Madelyn (17:20)
Right.

Yeah, absolutely. You work across the UK and US markets. It's so interesting. remember hearing just a couple of years ago, my agent was like, I feel like...

everyone's pivoting and using a UK production company and UK producers are just becoming more preferential in the market. there was just this idea that, especially on the format side, that development was just much more, it felt really thorough. But what, I want to know, know, what are the primary differences you've observed in the markets between the US and UK, whether that's like the buying market or even just the producing

themselves, the content that we're developing, what are some main things you've observed?

Nicky (18:12)
Well, I think

the one thing is that in America, people at Channel, people who work at Channel are called buyers, whereas in the UK they're called commissioners. And it's a bit of a subtle difference in that when we go and pitch to a UK commissioner, we often, we'll nearly always go and see them and have coffee. Like I, know, person from Sky Docs came into our office this afternoon and borrowed our office for a bit and then sat and had a chat and a coffee.

Madelyn (18:19)
Mm-hmm.

Nicky (18:37)
and we talked about ideas and it's a much more ongoing dialogue where they're all filmmakers. So it's development in some ways is more of a conversation than it is a pitch process. It is completely collaborative and that can be good and it can be bad and it means that you don't get a quick no, you get a slow no because they have to sort of go back and forth and think about it.

Madelyn (18:48)
collaborative.

Yeah.

Nicky (19:02)
It can be really great in that actually you don't get shot down really quickly, but it can be a challenge in that way. And then when you, obviously when you're pitching to the States, you now, we now do increasingly have those sort of relationships with buyers and you can get generals in with them. But if you've got a project and you, and you think it's really great and you go to your agent and they package it, you know, it's much more, you have a commodity that you are selling to lots of people at the same time and you do your pitch and it's.

half our pitch and it's pretty pre-scripted and you've got your sizzle, you've got your log line and you've got that one shot to sell it. So you as a development person, you're constantly thinking like, how can I package this to make this as appealing as possible? Is there an IP connection? What director can I attach? Have I got the right show runner? Am I even the right company? Should I be co-producing with another company to tell this story? Cause it's slightly out of this, my company's guard rails.

So I think it is just, you know, it's much more formal in a way in that you are selling. Whereas in our country, used to be, you used to get in trouble if you pitched to more than one channel at the same time. They'd get very, very cross with you. And quite often like, they'd blacklist, I remember being blacklisted because I had this access that broke in the newspaper and like old fashioned called them up and got access to this unfolding true crime story.

Madelyn (20:13)
interesting.

Nicky (20:25)
and I pitched it to Channel 4 and Sky at the same time and then Channel 4 didn't speak to me for three months.

Madelyn (20:30)
is very different. ⁓ Here it's like you want as many, you want to set as many pitches as possible. ⁓ Now it's crass, you you don't talk about who else you're talking to, you know, you don't really do much to that, but it's like, that is really interesting.

Nicky (20:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is

really different, I think, kind of developing. think here it would always, in the UK, it would always be like the paper is really important, like we'd write so much. And I think actually pitching to the States is better some ways because I do think you should, you know, it's a visual medium, we should be pitching on tape. And Utopia, that was something that they invested in really heavily in their development team. had

two edits constantly running to cut sizzles and a dedicated edit producer who sat across those sizzles and that was his job. So if you're a development team of say 10, know, like four of those people were just on sizzles and they would generate sizzles like weekly. It was a constant churn. And the sizzles to pitch to talent. So not even just sizzles going to market. It would just be.

you we've got this idea, agent goes, yeah, I think he'd be interested. You do a tape for that talent to get them to attach. And I think that's the thing that is difficult because it's an outlay for a small production company. But that's the shift I think you need to make in your mind. If you're like, right, I'm going to pitch to America. You have to lay everything on the line and say this. There is no reason you can say no to this. Whereas in the UK, you can be a lot more sort of ground up and just say,

I've just got, I've got this thought and I really think this story is interesting and here's some rushes I've shot on my phone. So yeah, that's the difference that I feel between them.

Madelyn (22:13)
you

That's so interesting. What sensibilities do you feel like development producers in the UK have that maybe we over in the USA could use more of?

Nicky (22:28)
I think we take more risks because we're allowed to because our budgets are not as high and I think it's much easier to take a risk with a channel when they're not outlaying nearly a million dollars for a 90 or a two-parter on Netflix. think we...

And also, again, having that strong public service broadcaster remit from the BBC and Channel 4, where they have to do things that question and, you know, create news headlines. Channel 4 always still say that, you know, when you're pitching to them, you have to think about what would our biggest tabloid newspaper get angry about? Like, what's going to make front page headlines when they go, how dare they do this?

a UK producer working in docs and formats, you always learn to push as hard as you can. that is something, interestingly, I've been asked for a lot more recently at some of the networks. A &E, for example, known for doing things like 60 Days In, people don't come to them anymore with those really outlandish, brave ideas because they're expensive and it's risky.

a production company to take on but actually those are the ones that I think British producers find the most exciting.

Madelyn (23:45)
That's so interesting.

I think even your attitudes about other things, like I think of naked attraction, right? And how that could never happen here without censor bars or, you know, even Love Island when it started out, you know, I just think that your attitudes and sensibilities about, you know, sex, nudity, there's so many things that I think that producers over here, we have to...

we have to play it safer a bit. And and I find that yeah, it does feel like there's much more risk in the UK. And typically that's followed by a lot of reward, is which is nice. But isn't it so it's so interesting to me to think about how

how deeply just the way that society is structured here versus there, how it affects...

the market. And I know that that sounds silly, like, of course it would, but it really does. even in the again, even the way you're saying like, we don't have strict pitches where we're sitting down and we're doing something, we just are having coffee and having a conversation. I mean, that is a very, that attitude comes from, you know, something deeply held in in society and how you have relationships with people just as the very quick you have 30 minutes, it's all in the line right here is so American,

Nicky (24:50)
I think also maybe a lot of it is to the fact that Brits are not very good at saying no, and they don't like offending people. So I think actually maybe the pitch system has developed from the fact that they would just, they wanna have a nice chat with you and then they'll, you know, they really should say no a lot sooner than they do, but they just don't wanna hurt your feelings. Whereas in America, it's like, we'll get your agent to do it for you, or just be like, no, that's not for us. That's, you know.

Madelyn (24:58)
Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Nicky (25:17)
no hard feelings, which is actually probably a lot more healthy for your development bank balance.

Madelyn (25:22)
I will say, in the early parts of my career, I would have taken the UK all day long. But as you go, you realize that when they take forever to give you feedback or talk to you or say no, you're like, I would just, if you know the answer, just tell me now.

and tell me good luck. yeah, it's that's so interesting. I bet Australia, makes me think Australia is the same way because I feel like they're also known for being incredibly nice and like not wanting to do that either. But they also have like the tall poppy syndrome too, right? So it's so interesting to think about how that influences what the development market looks like as well.

Nicky (25:55)
Yeah,

I I spent a year working in development in Sydney and it was so interesting because they just, because documentary companies there hate the fact that most of their TV is flooded with American format. So, you know, The Biggest Loser is one of the biggest shows on Australian TV. And Australian TV is fascinating because they don't really watch TV very much. They have...

Madelyn (25:59)
Okay.

Nicky (26:21)
they're out at the beach. know, TV is something that is not held in, you work in TV in Australia, it's like, oh, could you not get a proper job? It's not held in the esteem that we hold it in. Which is one of the reasons I came home, because I was like, you know, if you say to me, we work for the BBC, like in the UK, they're like, yeah, whereas in Australia, it's sort of, but then when I...

Madelyn (26:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, right. That's so funny.

Nicky (26:46)
When a format catches light, like MasterChef Australia, I was there for the first series of MasterChef Australia, where a third of the country, seven million people watched MasterChef Australia. And then the final, they had fireworks over Sydney Opera House. It was like a huge event. But the docs people are just, they just hate the fact that it feels like American TV and it's all American imports. So they fight really hard, but then they just end up trying to pitch stuff that feels like British TV.

rather than really clinging on to what is really quintessentially Australian. I mean, it's definitely changed a lot more. The production companies come on leaps and bounds since I lived there. then I was like, oh, I just spent the whole time going, I'm really sorry, that's already a British show, so you can't make that. But it was a really interesting experience.

Madelyn (27:39)
It is interesting because you think about, you know, I think it's there are cornerstones of what feels like British TV, American TV, Korean formats, Japanese formats. Like they feel like they have this sort of hallmark. so but Australia is maybe still finding out what theirs is.

You were, so I want to talk about this selfishly and because I know people want to hear it, but you were head a development at Hidden Light Pictures, again, founded by, you know, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton. We have a lot of production companies with high profile founders, whether they're political figures, you know, or athletes now or, you know, whatever. And so what is it but what does it look like to work alongside?

these two who are so high profile and also very much at the peak of their exposure.

Nicky (28:24)
Yeah, mean, yes, when we started Hidden Light, yeah, Hillary had just done her big documentary on Hulu, which was sort of following the whole disaster when she didn't get in and was so close. Yeah, sorry, I should probably be a bit more apolitical, but I'm always will be Team Hillary. So I think, yeah, it was a really, really interesting experience for me.

Madelyn (28:41)
That is what we call it.

Nicky (28:51)
I think conditions you just to be very, very aware of everything that you do and every email you write, because it can reflect back not just on your company, but also on a bigger brand and someone's family and their personal life. So I was sort of aware of that.

It was when we set up Hidden Light, we were very conscious that we wouldn't announce it until we got a commission because you're right, there were a lot of sort of celebrity production companies that were out there. So we really wanted to come out of the gate and say, here we are, but here we also got this massive series for Apple as well. So that was really key to us. But day to day, what was amazing about it is for someone, it's for people who are so brilliant and so hardworking.

they were really hands off with us. There was real trust there. And I think that's what makes Hillary and Chelsea quite unique in that they surround themselves with really inspirational women, 99 % they trust to do their job, which is very empowering. So, you know, every so often we check in with them, but nine times out of 10, they'd say, well, you employ that person if you believe that they're right or.

You run with that story if you think that's good. There are only a couple of things that they said, no, I don't think we should go there. But it was a real feeling of collaboration and an utter joy, think, to have. had weekly meetings with Humar and Barry, who are their chiefs of staff. And just to be in that world of inspiring and intelligent, clever, funny women 24 seven was just quite amazing.

And yeah, and it was lovely when Hillary would come to a brainstorm and say, oh, is it all right if I share an idea with you? I'm like, of course. And her ideas were always really good, which such a relief.

Madelyn (30:45)
Please.

Nicky (30:48)
So yeah, amazing.

Madelyn (30:50)
Yes, I can.

I can imagine it the other way. when you look at, I look at, think of, you know, comps are, you know, Archwell with Harry and Meghan, Higher Ground, which is the Obama's production company. And when I, when I talked to them and I partner with them, their, their mandates and the pillars of what they're looking for are typically reflective of who they are, what they stand for, what they're interested in, what they're known for. And so what were your mandates at Hidden Light and how did you guys approach that, your slate?

Nicky (31:18)
I mean, it was very

similar. mean, we were set up as a female first production company. So our main thing out the gate was always female protagonists. So, and also female directors. So it was pretty much everyone who worked at the company was a woman and the projects we were looking for was sort of taking the sort of big subjects of the moment, but telling them through a female lens or an underrepresented lens.

So for example, we did a big feature doc about Ukraine and there were a lot of ones that came out, like Maripol and those sort of films that were incredible. why ours was different is we partnered with the Clooney Foundation to follow Amal Clooney's work and the work of a female war crimes investigator and her female sort of partner in crime. So you're essentially following these incredible

kind of trailblazing, hardcore women who were on the front line trying to gather evidence to take Putin to a tribunal. So it's like, where is the female and quite unexpected story behind that? So that was our main thing. Obviously we had Siobhan Sinnartin working for us who had made for Sama. So we were trying to find those stories that shone a light on the world, but I mean.

tried not to feel too overtly political. And that was tough, because at the beginning, I think maybe we did go too political and we were slightly punished for that. You we made In Her Hands, which was a film about a young female mayor in Afghanistan. And as we were filming, Kabul fell. So the film became something very different and something incredibly impactful. But, you know, it's one of the biggest things that I learnt working at Hidden Light is that you have to...

be so aware of not just Hillary's secretary's politics, but also what she did when she was secretary of state, how people react to that, and also the president's politics as well. what did he do when he was in office? So it's really important to not draw attention away from the point of the film by giving people a reason to have a problem with it.

and Afghanistan proved to be a really, really tricky minefield for us. And in retrospect, would we have had her on it as an EP? It's all these difficult questions because they bring a huge platform that you can then get this amazing impact campaign about getting girls into schools against the Taliban. But at the same time, it's a real balancing act. that, the mandates were...

on one hand, the purposeful docs that you feel like you have to make, and those are often privately funded. So the one we did with Jennifer Lawrence about abortion rights, that felt, you you couldn't sell that anywhere, but it was important to us to make it. And we got funding from people like Bumble and Bloomberg for that. And then on the other hand, what I was trying to do was sort of open up a more commercial side of the slate. So there was more of a balance. So we did a two-part geopolitical thriller about the Kursk submarine.

And really, and we did a sort of two part scam, shamanic scam scandal that's just gone out on the BBC. So it was sort of trying to find, trying to find a way in the market that didn't feel like it's undermined anything that the Clintons stood for and trying to use them in a way that felt good and true and didn't, you know, detract from what we were trying to achieve as a company.

Madelyn (34:54)
and not an easy job to balance,

you look at a film and go, young women getting access to school in Afghanistan.

who can argue against that, but because of potentially the figureheads you have behind it, how polarized we've become as a country, it suddenly becomes a difficult project. So I'm sure that was just such a challenge for you. And I can't imagine the growth from that. You mentioned that Hillary would sometimes come to brainstorms and have ideas, and they were always great. mean, what else kind of surprised you about working with Hillary and Chelsea?

Nicky (35:24)
just how, we started together, working together in lockdown and like full proper lockdown and that was really revealing because you you saw them as their families would see them, know, Chelsea with three children climbing all over them because they've been separated from the nannies and like Hillary just as she was and it was really refreshing and the same with the chiefs staff actually, like we were all

I had an 18 month old at the time and Barry, Chelsea's chief of staff had the same and it was really grounding to sort of see each other in that world. I think I was surprised at how funny and fun Hillary was and how commercial she was in her, what she liked to watch. Like The Kardashians was one of her favorite shows. So when we made Gutsy, yeah, when we made Gutsy, it was a real push to.

Madelyn (36:14)
Love that.

Nicky (36:18)
get Kim Kardashian in our Justice episode, which we achieved. So it was just, oh, and just how amenable they were to sort of trying to help us with various things. you know, one of Hilary's ideas was to get access to Buckingham Palace. And I was like, I'm sure everyone has tried to get that after a while. It's a great idea. mean, who wouldn't want to watch that? But it's really tricky.

And then the next day I found myself having the most surreal moment of my career so far, where I was drafting a letter from the secretary to the King of England. But she refers to him as Charles and then it goes back to her and she rewrites the letter and then helps me put it in front of King Charles. So that was one of the more surprising things that I found myself doing.

Madelyn (37:05)
That is,

that's, I don't know what you do, can you like screenshot the email and just frame it? I mean, but it goes to show you in this line of work, it opens up so many, there's just so many different worlds you explore, so many different avenues, and it can open up surreal moments like that. It's so incredible. Were there any other major takeaways from that experience with Hidden Light specifically?

Nicky (37:09)
You

I think

it became, I think what was really helpful about it was learning how to, I think behave is the wrong word, but how to like present myself in the best way to people who are very important and have little time. And that is something that I've taken with me and Utopia, think I could talk to the producers when we were working with someone like Tom Hanks, for example, I could explain.

how you have to make sure that when they come into a room that everything is prepared for them and how to brief your talent on exactly what is going to be happening because I always when anyone started at Hidden Light I'd show them that clip from The Devil's Wear's Prada where Emily Blunt is walking behind Meryl Streep and saying this is this person this is exactly you know they have the special book that has everyone's photograph in it

And that's exactly what we would do for every, if we had a drinks party or a film reception or a Q and A or a premiere, we would spend two weeks basically working out who all the guests were, what the talking points were, because it is about preparing your principles for those events, because it's a lot, you know, they get overwhelmed by the amount of people that want to say hello to them. And that for me has stayed with me.

Madelyn (38:24)
Mm-hmm.

Nicky (38:52)
as way I now, know, way Huma taught me to write letters to, you know, people in incredibly influential positions and how to present myself, I think has been an absolute valuable lesson that I've learned.

Madelyn (39:05)
That's really incredible. And those are all things, they can be learned, but only really by immersion, right? Like someone could teach you this, but it really takes you, think, actually being there in those situations to really learn.

Speaking of that, you lecture on factual development, you run courses on idea generation. I mean, right now, what would you say your students struggle with the most?

Nicky (39:28)
I think the biggest thing that they struggle with and that I struggle with too is the difference between an idea and an area. I think a lot of people say, I just really want to do something about this. And you've always got to think like, what is it? Like, what is your, either your access that's going to take you into that world or what is your, who is your presenter? Who's your talent?

What question you actually asking and how, what's your hook? Like, what are people gonna come and watch? Because they're not gonna come and watch a documentary about, you know, gay marriage, for example, but they will watch as we did over here. We did a live get, when same sex marriage was legalized, they did a big event, which was like a musical where people got married live. And it was sort of, what is your entertaining proposition?

around your message and I think sometimes it's really really hard to tell people that you know your idea at the moment is just a newspaper article it's just a portrait like what is your narrative that's gonna take you through what's your part for so that's the hardest thing I think

Madelyn (40:35)
It's a great point. so with that in mind, in the marketplace right now, mean, what do you think separates a good idea from one that actually sells?

Nicky (40:43)
I it's about elevating that idea to making it as sellable as possible. So I think a good idea, the way to make it sellable, it's got to have a home. So in order to make it sellable, you've got to find somewhere that actually will commission that idea. It's all very well having a really great documentary idea, but if it doesn't fit the Netflix remake or if it doesn't...

So apply, if it wouldn't work for private funding, then it's not a great idea anymore because it's not gonna sell at this moment. But then I think it's also about working out how to give that idea the best shot to make it sellable. So, you know, do you need to partner with another production company a bit like Squid Game, the challenge, for example, on Netflix. That was a great idea that a documentary company had, but.

It only became a sellable idea when they were partnered with Studio Lambert, who obviously like the format gods of the market at the moment. And then, do you need talent? Does it make more sense if you've got, you know, Kate McKinnon doing something about weird stuff? You know, there's, you know, if you're trying to pitch something to Nat Geo, for example, you need Marvel talent on there like Chris Hemsworth, who can really make sure that that idea is sellable and can sit on a Disney tile up against big Marvel movies.

So it's constantly about asking yourself, how am I gonna make this idea really, really be something that people can't say no to? So it's all about the packaging.

Madelyn (42:11)
Great. It's all great advice. What, what excites you enough to keep doing this? I asked this because,

And I don't think this is just performative LinkedIn posts. mean, a lot of people are feeling stalled out right now, feeling discouraged. So what maybe would be your advice to them and then what excites you about this and kind of keeps you going?

Nicky (42:29)
I'd say that in this country, in the UK, there's just been such a resurgence in watching live telly and watching TV as it happens and as it unfolds and it's become part of the national conversation. I think nearly 10 million people I think watch The Traitors and that has been something that you walk past people in the park.

they're discussing it no matter what age they are and families will watch it together and it's been something that has, we've not had that in a while, where you have to get home from work and you have to watch it because everyone will be talking about it tomorrow. So I feel like we're having a bit of a resurgence in our country in that appointment of you, which is really exciting and makes you want to be part of an industry that's of galvanising everyone in really dark times. I think for me

Madelyn (43:01)
Yes.

Nicky (43:16)
why I get excited about this industry is how fast it evolves. When I went on maternity leave with my second child, I came back and felt like I was just relearning again. I was at hidden light and I was suddenly learning about equity caps and private funding and distributor models and what Netflix were doing and new channels that were appearing and channels that were disappearing and different...

Roku came and HBO Max went and CNN stopped commissioning and then everyone wanted copros. So I feel like it's, I find it so exciting if you can keep up with it, which us TV geeks love to. So that for me is, it will never feel like we're standing still in this industry and that's why I will always super, super love it.

But I think what would be my advice? I mean, in this country, we have a lot of amazing free courses that you can go on and try and upskill or find different ways into the industry. And I think just like finding yourself a network, I...

When I was having a difficult time in the industry, I became part of this WhatsApp group, which was all senior development people. And not only has it led to new work and new opportunities, but it's just really lovely to have other people say around a glass of wine, this is really hard. Like this is really hard. So it's just, think your network will save you. That's as a freelancer, it's been my network that's provided me.

with work, that's the industry we live in. yeah, think learn as much as you can and try and upskill for the cheapest way you can. Volunteer at festivals because then you get free passes. Just keep yourself immersed in that world and just watch as much as you can as well. That's the best education there is.

Madelyn (45:01)
I agree wholeheartedly. Wonderful advice. Thank you so much. You mentioned Traders UK. What else are you watching right now? What do you love to watch?

Nicky (45:08)
I love industry. You guys, don't know if you have industry. Well, I think it's BBC America. Oh, it's like, yeah.

Madelyn (45:14)
I just, so I just started. I just started and I'm hooked. So you

are the second person who's mentioned this to me this week. So yeah, okay.

Nicky (45:23)
It is just, it's really, someone said this to me, which I thought was really, I think they said it on the Go Hang Out with Us Entertainment podcast, that if you know industry, you love it, but it's not something that's for everyone. But I just think, I just think it's just brilliant storytelling and it's again, it's risky and it sort of pushes it out there. And sometimes you're like, this is a bit much, but I just, I love, I love shows like that, that really grab you. So yeah, watching that.

We've just watched the final of our favourite quiz show, which is a so geeky British quiz show called Only Connect, which is incredibly tricky and we can never answer a single question. But there's something about like participating in TV when there's two of you, after a long day that I just, I quite love a very, very tricky quiz show.

Madelyn (46:11)
Yes, that is why the Jeopardy comes on at like 730 in the evening here. And you're right. There's just something great about whoever's beside you, whether it's your partner or your grandpa, and you guys are just like, for 30 minutes, we're gonna be contestants. I love that. What is, can you think of the worst note you've ever received?

Nicky (46:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

So when I was a development AP at a production company, I think it was, I was cutting a sizzle that was the worst sizzle ever anyway. It was for an idea that was not mine that was called Hypnotize Me or It's Divorce. And the idea was that the man would be hypnotized and then not, and basically help around the house. It was so misogynistic and terrible, but you know, this was TV in the early 2000s. So not only did I have to cut that sizzle.

that I really railed against as a strong woman. mean, Hillary would have been, had lost her mind. But the note that I got at midnight on a Friday night was, I really think this American voiceover is grating, we need a Canadian. So I had to go and find, knew one Canadian person, I knew one Canadian person. I had to like drag her out of the pub to come and do my voiceover. It was horrific.

Madelyn (47:15)
Okay.

That's hilarious. I know that there are differences in the way we speak, but it's not quite so obvious. It's What unscripted show do you think epitomizes the industry?

Nicky (47:24)
Yeah.

I mean, I would say, so I mentioned it before, but Squid Game the Challenge is really interesting to me in that it was, you know, not created, but, you know, it was pitched by a documentary company who are known in this country for doing sort of really amazing hospital documentaries and police documentaries and police procedurals. And they pitched this and everyone was like, that's interesting, it's coming from there. But they were...

clever enough and didn't have enough of an ego that they went, do you know what, we can't do this on our own and joined up with studio Lambert. And I think that sort of epitomizes where we are in this industry and that companies can't do it all anymore and they shouldn't. You should just know what you are best in class at. And if you're not, then reach out to someone else and partner. And actually the show becomes so good because what for me makes that show brilliant.

is that you really invest in the characters and that's a documentary casting job. the documentary team build those emotional narratives throughout that series. And then you have the incredible entertainment chops of Studio Lambert that are making sure it's perfect and the gameplay is amazing. So.

yeah that would be my pick.

Madelyn (48:51)
That's a great answer. It's such an ambitious show, but it does it work so well. What are you what are you tired of seeing? What are you a bit fatigued on right now?

Nicky (49:00)
I I'm quite bored of a travelogue where I can really feel the hand of the producer really heavily. And it's like, I think maybe like, and something that we refer to in my household as FJ, which is false jeopardy, where it's like, where are we going to go now? it just so happens we should go here. I don't know. I just...

I love Clarkson's farm on Amazon, which is not, I mean, obviously he's got lots of money. He's bought a farm. There's not so much shepherdy there, but it actually is really happening in real time. He's running a farm, he's running a business and it feels much more real. And I just love authenticity. just think it's, I'm a doc maker through and through. I've spent my life like filming stuff that unfolds as you watch it. So.

I think I'm a bit allergic to everything that feels really overly constructed.

Madelyn (49:51)
Yeah, definitely. So what is one doc that you feel like everyone should watch right now?

Nicky (49:55)
So I thought about this a lot and I could have said perfect neighbor, but everyone will say that because it's been nominated for an Oscar and it is brilliant. But I think I love the Lewis Capaldi documentary on Netflix, which I really do because it really feels truly honest and true to him.

Madelyn (50:11)
Cool.

Nicky (50:21)
It's a really clever way in that it starts, in that you start at the end and then there's a rewind. And then you go straight into him in lockdown trying to deal with his mental health, with his Tourette's, but also trying to write his next album in his parents' And it's so real and he is so funny and there's no pretension to it. It was so different for me from the Robbie Williams docs and the Beckhams.

which were great in their own way, but I just loved him instantly. And I just felt so strongly towards wanting only good things for him because he was just open and honest and it unfolded like a natural, know, verite documentary. So I think I'll always, that will always be one of my favorites.

Madelyn (51:09)
Okay, I will add it to my list. Well, Nikki, this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. This has been really great and hopefully we can cross paths again soon.

Nicky (51:20)
Yeah, that would be lovely.

Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute joy to talk about the world of development, which is my spiritual home.

Madelyn (51:29)
Yes.

Thank you.

Madelyn (51:35)
Thank you guys so much for joining me.

I could listen to Nicky talk all day long. ⁓ Don't forget, follow us on Instagram at unscripted files subscribe, rate, review, share, post. It all helps. Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back next week with more unscripted files. Thanks.