Frank Carlisi (00:00)
it's what you have to do, looking at the world from sort of a bird's-eye view of what is the feeling that we're all trying to collectively have together You know, it's it's a sense of warmth. It's a sense of comfort I do think we talk about the business side of this and finding partners but I do think that there is

still a need for human stories that we can look at and see ourselves in. I think that's never going to change.

Madelyn Cunningham (00:33)
Hey, happy Friday. Welcome to the Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham and this podcast is where I bring you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment, reality, unscripted, dating, competition, culinary, all the things. I say this every episode, but I really am excited about this one because one of my dear friends is on. In fact, someone that I describe as my platonic soulmate, we clicked immediately at an industry event a few years ago and have been inseparable ever since.

He has the most magnetic personality, the most incredible and authentic approach to creativity, and is one of the most supportive human beings on the planet. We get really raw and honest about the unconventional journey into this industry that a lot of people have, how long it takes to get a green light. And we celebrate his first green light. it was a little too early when we recorded to be able to talk about it, but I can talk about it now. His first green light, his series.

is set to premiere on A &E July 12th. It is "Betting on Beloit". him and his producing partner had a relationship with one of the foremost self-made billionaire women in the country who goes back to her hometown in Beloit and alongside her daughter and her daughter's husband, they flip homes for a loss, not a profit, just to revitalize the community.

we dive into that show and just general life and career stuff. This episode is full of so many incredible nuggets and insights of information. And I know that you'll fall in love with him just as I have. So I want you to go ahead and dive in. This is my episode with Frank Carlisi.

Madelyn Cunningham (02:15)
Carlisi, welcome. My friend, my producing creative partner, my Platonic soulmate. Welcome to the Unscripted Files. I'm so happy that you're here.

Frank Carlisi (02:25)
I could not be happier to be here. Anytime I'm with you, I'm gonna be smiling the whole entire time. So hopefully we can get this out because you know how much I love you.

Madelyn Cunningham (02:32)
I was like, we've got to focus. It's okay, we just spent 30 minutes catching up, I think, before this. I will give the, Frank and I met at RealScreen.

Frank Carlisi (02:35)
Yes.

Sure

Madelyn Cunningham (02:42)
Two, two and a half years ago, Frank?

Frank Carlisi (02:45)
Just about, I think 21? 21, so.

Madelyn Cunningham (02:48)
I think it was,

I think it was 21 and I think it might've been my first, just first or second real screen early, early in the game, brand new baby. And you were there with your production partner and you guys had done the pitch competition, like the summit showdown and you did so amazing and you won.

Frank Carlisi (03:10)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Madelyn Cunningham (03:11)
And you

happened to be at the bar after and me and my producing partner, like, think just like bought you guys drinks and we're like, congratulations. And then we just got on like a house on fire. mean, we have not, nothing's been the same.

Frank Carlisi (03:26)
And we have never stopped, absolutely. Like that was it. I remember that day, you guys, the four of us just paired off. They paired off, you and I paired off, and then that was it. I love it.

Madelyn Cunningham (03:36)
Mm-hmm. Yes, and we

have now gone on to, we have bi-weekly meetings to brainstorm, we've pitched shows together, and in the meantime, you have gotten your first green light, and I can't wait to dive into that. But I'm so excited to have you here because like I told you earlier, you and I,

You have been in this a lot longer than I have, pitching, coming up with ideas and like really grinding. And we were just talking about how this industry, especially as an independent development producer who's not in house anywhere, not with a network, how tough it is, how much resilience it requires and how it's not super glamorous all the time. there's kind of so many things you have to do to...

Like you said, keep yourself a part of the conversation and be persistent. So I'm so excited to dive into all of that. want to first just talk about you. I know you, but everyone else needs to know you. So talk to me a little bit about you and ultimately like how you got started in development. What pulled you into wanting to start to like create and pitch shows?

Frank Carlisi (04:40)
I mean, I have a lot of hats and a really interesting sort of diverse background, but I feel like everyone in this business does, honestly, from the people that I know and have met and worked with through the years. We all kind of follow different paths that get us here, but I started out really just being a lover.

of reality TV, honestly. mean, it's simple as that. The classics, like the Osbournes and like the Jersey Shores and like the Anna Nicole show and Extreme Makeover Home Edition, like the old school, like gritty, like crazy humor reality shows and obviously the Housewives. So first and foremost, I was a fan of the art form.

I once watched this show which was called The Comeback with Lisa Kudrow.

I'm telling you this because it's a scripted show that was about a Hollywood actress that was making a reality show and she is funny and trying to self-produce herself. And something about that show always stuck in the back of my brain, even though it's scripted, was sort of ahead of its time at the time for putting, taking the curtain away from what this business inevitably is. So I just loved it so much.

And I never really connected with myself with being in the entertainment industry. It was always a dream, if I'm being honest. I was in high school plays and gregarious in that way and a lover of the arts, but I always felt that it wasn't something for me. It wasn't just, you know, I didn't study it. I never thought I had enough talent to sort of discern what that would look like for me personally. But, you know, just always had a passion for wanting to create.

and be the person, the catalyst for ideas and creating beautiful art and things like that. Fast forward to one night I'm at a bar, as every good story starts, with my partner who we were talking about, Tim, and we were just having a few cocktails and I...

Madelyn Cunningham (06:35)
You

Frank Carlisi (06:41)
I'm a classically trained chef. went to the French Culinary Institute. And we were just talking about making a television show about having to cook someone's last meal on death row. And we just connected in that way. It was probably one of the first times we actually hung out together, believe it or not, when we came up with this idea. And we just were laughing about it and like, my God, and he's a videographer. So he was able to paint the picture of what the show would look

like and we felt it again it was probably the tequila but we just kind of bonded in that way but the lesson with this was I couldn't get out of my head I just we walked away we parted ways and we couldn't get it out of I couldn't get it out of my head I would call him we'd talk about it but one night I was at a holiday party in Chelsea in Manhattan and I again probably having a few libations and we I said it out loud

Madelyn Cunningham (07:19)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (07:36)
out

in an elevator, literally. I was telling my friend Doug at the time, was like, my God, Tim and I were talking about this idea for a TV show about a death row chef that has to cook someone's last meal. I got a tap on the shoulder and I got a business card from someone that said, call me on Monday, I really like this idea. Did I ever tell you this?

Madelyn Cunningham (07:56)
You have never told me this.

Frank Carlisi (07:59)
Well, can't believe I'm telling, I'm saying this out loud and I see your face and I'm like, I've never told you this before. This is how it started. Yeah, it's wild. So it was literally an elevator pitch. Okay. And it ended up being someone that connected us to an executive. He was over at VH1 and MTV. You might know him, Dane Josephs. He's over at Hulu now.

Madelyn Cunningham (08:04)
No, you've never told me this.

Literally.

Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (08:24)
We got connected to Dane and just started, we were literally, I'll never forget, taking the escalator up in Times Square where their old offices were and going into his office, I almost died. It was, we were freaking out and he sat us down and he was like, this is a really solid idea. This is how you sort of navigate this industry. So we, then we got the bug. So we just kept working and working and working and coming up with new ideas. That is the very long story of how I got into this business. So.

Madelyn Cunningham (08:42)
Mm.

No, well, that was the, I obviously knew about the show because that's what you pitched at summit showdown, but I did not know about the elevator. What a powerful message of like saying things out loud. Do you know what I mean? I think we've talked about this before where it's like, you have an idea, a nugget of an idea that like maybe feels big to you or feels whatever. And like just telling people about it gives it this like life and momentum.

Frank Carlisi (08:53)
while.

Right.

Yeah.

yeah, totally.

Madelyn Cunningham (09:19)
like so much more

than holding it close to the vest. And I love that you just were like, we have this thing and look what happened. that's so cool. I love that. my God, that's so neat. And then you guys, so really quickly, because I don't want to leave people hanging. So you went on to actually find a chef, a cook that does these, that like actually cooks people's last meals and you profile, like, right?

Frank Carlisi (09:31)
Absolutely.

We sure did. Yeah. We wrote. Now this was before a lot of the technology that's out there. We literally wrote him a letter. I remember from a, work on 127th street in Harlem, where I used to work out of Tim came in and we sat down and we wrote handwritten letters to some chefs that we had found online. And Brian, the chef, Brian Price answered us. He sent us a letter back in the mail, Maddie. And

And

Yeah. And then we started a relationship with him, which has been just about, you know, almost a decade long relationship. but he will always be that first idea. And it was to your point though, about talking ideas out, I'll put myself in the frame of mind that I was in then that was really scary because we didn't know anything. thought, my God, people might take our idea. So finding that balance to say it out loud was personally difficult for

and I know it is for you too sometimes and so many of us in this business, but we did it and we got there and we worked with Brian and we developed a show with him in so many different ways. We got picked up by production companies as I'll air quote without naming names. I'll tell you after we hang up, but different types of, know, industry people just moving along, moving along, moving along. And then...

One day there was a course that was being offered in again in Manhattan when I was there. And it was called, I forget what it was. It was at a journalism school downtown in Midtown Manhattan in Hell's Kitchen. And I just happened to take it and it was part like being on camera, off camera. I have no interest in being on camera, but I just took the class anyway. It was a cold February. remember it was like one degree out and we go to the class.

great

casting director, came and did a segment. And then a woman named Chelsea Stevens came in at the very tail end of the course, just to talk about the unscripted business. Now Chelsea, for those of you who don't know, is one of the creators of The Real Housewives of Atlanta, Potomac, Dubai, amongst...

I can't even tell you how many other ideas. And again, I spoke it in the class. She was like, does anyone have any ideas? And she was at the very tail end of it. And I stood up. was so, I almost, I was sick to my stomach, nervous to stand up in this class to say this idea out loud because who knows? And I said it out loud and then Chelsea goes, you should email this to me. I would love to talk more about it. And when I tell you that she's been our mentor, friend, confidant, everything to

throughout this entire journey. But to your point, I had the nerve to speak it out loud and we formed that relationship and we've developed so many things with her through the years as well. So, yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (12:31)
I just love that. What would you tell yourself? mean, knowing what you know now, there's so, I look back to pitches I had early on and like things I did, things I was nervous about. What would that initial idea, that first meeting, you know, what would you go back and tell yourself or how would you have potentially done things differently? Like when you, right from when you got the idea.

Frank Carlisi (12:35)
Yes.

Yeah.

absolutely, I think...

the, well, first of all, you have to learn who to trust, right? Not every person you partner with is right for the project. I think just because you get an offer or you get a partnership offer that in the beginning, of course, it's very exciting. But I think editing in that way is something that I would have done. But also through the process, I think knowing my own self worth and my partner's own self

worth, especially at that beginning stage, not saying I'm so green. I don't know this business. Let me give you all the reins, especially when you're working with other producers or other partners. But feeling confident enough to say this is my idea that, you know, it came from me. I have this creative passion that this is me. It's my DNA and speaking up for myself and for my partner at that step.

That's something that I would have definitely done differently. But then again, it comes with time and really sharpening your utensil, your brain, your skillset. But that's the advice I would give myself. Holding onto yourself during that process and not giving away too much. It's a very delicate balance, but that's what I would say. Yeah. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (14:08)
It is because you want to be humble enough to say, yeah,

this is kind of my first rodeo. But when you do that, that offer comes in low. can get cut out of the process. I there's a lot that you and I have talked about about being an emerging producer where you, like I said, you want to be humble and make sure that the experts can take it and do what they need to do. And you don't want to

Frank Carlisi (14:16)
Yeah.

yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (14:32)
squeeze it to the point where it dies, but at the same time, there's a lot that I also would have done differently with initial projects. And I love that you said that it's like, yeah, be a little more like involved in the process.

Frank Carlisi (14:44)
Yeah, it's

for sure. And it's a certain confidence, but it's not arrogance. It's different. I think maybe at the time I would say, my God, I don't want to be that annoying.

Madelyn Cunningham (14:48)
Mm.

Frank Carlisi (14:55)
guy was like, yeah, I don't want to push this. know, you know, I should be so humble that they've even looked at the show, the project, this, that, and the other thing. I think there's a balance. I think I was afraid to go in one direction, but I think asserting confidence in your idea and showing passion for your idea is not something that you should ever hide at that step. that is something that I did, unfortunately. I was very stoic about it. Yes, you know, agreeable, of course.

Madelyn Cunningham (14:55)
I

Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (15:24)
amenable for sure, but not able to articulate that passion held us back, held me back personally. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (15:30)
Totally.

Well, and this is another key piece too that we both had to learn and that anyone in the industry has to learn when you're pitching ideas. It's typically, you know, if you're not attached to a production company, they're going to partner you with one, right? That's typically early on what you're doing is you're going to partner with a production company and then potentially that production company has the connections, the relationships, the reputation to take you to the buyer, which is a streamer, a network, a digital platform, whatever.

So when you, knowing what you know now, what do you look for in a production partner? Cause early on you and I both were like, I mean, any offer we got for someone who wanted to partner on a show, we were just like, yes. Not again, not really thinking of what questions to ask. What relationships do you have with buyers? What have you done in the past? How do you work? How do you collaborate? What's your deal structure? mean, there's just so many things. So tell me for you,

Based, how do you choose a good production partner and how is that critical to your process?

Frank Carlisi (16:29)
it's the most critical because we're independent, right? So we don't have the, you know, the infrastructure to make the show ourselves. But...

The first thing I do is look like for like right have you made something with similar in the similar ilk to what this new? Concept is or are the themes similar so I guess my first takeaway would be watch watch the production companies content Don't just look at it watch it because if you get the right feeling For what the show could be by watching one of their shows You could usually tell like that's the instinct that when that instinct kicks in

is when you know you're in the right place. there's something, I like to make a show that has humor in it. It's just the through line back to my honey boo boo and my Osbournes that I mentioned before. But I love to edit for humor and for a little drama. I like the tone of that. So whenever we're making a new show, I like to find a production company that gets that. I'll cite the example of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

I

feel like that is a comedy or a parody of The Housewives these days, is my favorite. It's the only one I watch anymore because they're taking a different approach to something that's so established. But if I was to find the production company partner, I can't remember off the top of my head who they are. They're amazing. But I would look at a show like that. Is it going give you that visceral feeling that you're trying to put on screen? So that's number one. you know, like for

Madelyn Cunningham (17:56)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (18:03)
like number two is trust and relationship building. Like I said, no matter where Chelsea is in the world, she's going to get our show because she's the person that speaks our shorthand through all these years. Right? So it's, it's, you're going to build relationships with producers that you could just trust. You know, they might say, Hey, listen, this is not, this is really off brand for us, but you could still go to her and get her notes on it, which is great too. So relationships and like,

Madelyn Cunningham (18:28)
Totally.

Frank Carlisi (18:30)
for life. That's how I usually look.

Madelyn Cunningham (18:32)
I love what you said about

Get the notes, get the feedback. everything is cumulative, every relationship. And so you're like, okay, that deck, gotta know, but they got to see my materials. They got to see what I can do. So it's, you know I mean? So it's always, I have to remember that rejection is another huge part of this because it just is. You're getting your ideas out there and seeing what sticks. And yes, getting like,

feedback, asking for notes is so critical no matter how many years you've been in the industry.

Frank Carlisi (19:03)
Absolutely, you know, I was actually this past weekend I was fortunate enough to be a judge at Trillit Studios here in Atlanta. Huge, huge, huge movie studio with the biggest one I think in the entire country actually. They film Netflix, Marvel, everyone's here, DC, everyone. And they asked me, which was really sweet, to judge, to give feedback on a screenwriting course, classes, final presentation.

Madelyn Cunningham (19:27)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (19:30)
And I was like, I work in unscripted. You do know that it's literally the opposite of what, but I, you know, again, you know, we have similar themes and similar, you know, pitch styles and things like that. So I gave my feedback, but at the end of the class, I was speaking to some of the students and I literally said this to them. I was like, your job is to grab it, put it on the paper, the idea and get it out. You know, it doesn't live within you. It lives out there and you have to pull it out of the ether and

Madelyn Cunningham (19:34)
Right.

Frank Carlisi (19:58)
and bring it and get it on that paper. So many ideas don't pass through and they don't get to hit the paper, but you did your job and you got it there. Now, other people are gonna come into this idea and they're going to contribute to it. They might take away, they might add, but you have to be so open to that. And I know that could be really difficult for some people. think that that is one of the hardest things for people, creative people, is letting other people contribute.

to

their content, you and I do it so well because we have a level of trust and respect for each other. And it's just always been natural. But I think letting other people into your content is the paramount way that half of our shows have gotten where they are, you know, and finding the right people that you have that respect for that care for you in that way and care for your idea.

It's another delicate balance you gotta follow.

Madelyn Cunningham (20:54)
Yeah.

I love, we've talked about this before too, like cultivating creativity. No matter what industry you're in, it's hard when a large part of your job is ideas. That is what we do. It is ideas. And you sit down in the coffee shop or in your office and you're like, okay. And we talked about generating openness and like,

Frank Carlisi (21:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (21:14)
openness to the idea, openness to the concept, and then writing it down, speaking it to existence, giving it life. So talk to me about when you get an idea, right? So after you had this first idea, the death row chef, you've had a million more since then, you and I have had a million more since then. So when you have an idea, when it strikes you, like what is your next step one, two, three?

Frank Carlisi (21:34)
Well, I...

I'll just say one thing before I jump into that process is that content is something I found is that content is derivative. I know that that's a little heavy and we might need to unpack that for a second, but an idea leads to another idea, right? So to continue my story, the death row chef that we went through this 10 years of working with, green, you know, deal with A &E, didn't get picked up in the 11th hour, so on and so forth. A nugget, while we were working with him, we found out that he got mad

married

by proxy. Not even gonna explain what that is. So Brian got married by proxy. Long story short, our next show was literally called Married by Proxy, which evolved into I Do Without You, which went to Lifetime and again at the 11th hour. But it's still being worked on almost five years later. We're working on a derivative version of it with Hearst right now that is gonna go out at the top of the year.

I just tell that story because it's never our job to say an idea is bad. It just needs to grow more and cook more and go through the process. So to my process, the first thing I do

Madelyn Cunningham (22:39)
Totally.

Frank Carlisi (22:43)
and I have an idea is I call Tim, let's be real. Like you have your person or I you for that matter obviously. Just again, that trust level or we text Chelsea or we reach out, we have a phenomenal show runner on our show right now, Rachel. We'll shoot someone a text and say, listen, what do you think about this? We've built a bench of people that we trust that we can be vulnerable with.

Madelyn Cunningham (22:47)
Yep. Yep.

Frank Carlisi (23:08)
to share those ideas because it is being vulnerable. No matter how you twist and turn it, it feels weird when you put an idea out. Sometimes when I tell you an idea, I'm like, is this ridiculous? And you're always the best. You give the best constructive criticism. I can always be like, mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So yeah. But I love you so much and you trust me that we could talk to each other in that short hand.

Madelyn Cunningham (23:12)
Mm-hmm.

This is crazy.

⁓

Yes,

we can, yeah.

Frank Carlisi (23:35)
Well, it's putting together your bench, to use a sports analogy.

of those people that you know. I'm gonna share it with this person because they get this side, they get this piece of it and then bring it out. So it's speaking it out to your bench. That's number one, right? Number two is looking at like, again, does something like this exist? You'd be surprised how many amazing ideas that we have that I wait a little bit because I don't want, I'm scared of the answer. Because I'm like, this is such a good idea.

Madelyn Cunningham (23:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, that IMDB search,

you're like, damn it.

Frank Carlisi (24:08)
I'm

sometimes I wait too long because I'm scared and I'm like, I hope this doesn't exist. And then sometimes it does.

Madelyn Cunningham (24:11)
Yes.

Frank Carlisi (24:16)
And I've said this to you in the past too, that I use that to fuel me because that means that we're getting good at this, right? We're sharpening our tool set and we're getting good. So when a show of ours goes on the air, an idea that we had that we pitched years ago that gets evolved and on, or I look and go, this idea that has to be a hit, it happened already for a couple of seasons somewhere that I never heard of. It's just, we're sharpening, we're good at what we're doing. So I called Tim.

Madelyn Cunningham (24:24)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (24:46)
I call you first. We call the bench.

We look around at the market and now, which is a great sort of topic to really discuss is we look at where can we find partners, co-branded sponsors, people that can integrate into the content. It's been a huge, and this is a new development and a really hot topic right now. It's been a huge part of how our creative process has changed in the time we've been doing this. know, getting a show greenlit is

Madelyn Cunningham (25:07)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (25:16)
harder than ever. I don't have to tell you, I don't have to tell the audience. It's tough. But what we've been doing, having those brands potentially attached to an idea, it's, I look at it as another challenge, another way to be creative. It doesn't feel corporate to me anymore. It did in the beginning, it was like a little ick. Now I'm just like, okay, I have this amazing idea. We have this amazing idea. How do we bring a brand into it to make it even

and more interesting and then hopefully have some dollars to go out to a production company or a network and say, we have some money attached already, let's get this fast track to be greenlit. So that's the process these days. Yeah. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (25:56)
Yeah, it is, isn't it?

It wasn't even part of my process early on. And now having something fully partially funded, brand attachment, IP, it's all part of the game. so being able, you come from a marketing background, so do I. So being able to look at

Frank Carlisi (26:02)
No.

Madelyn Cunningham (26:21)
ethos of the show and align that with a brand message or a brand ethos is like a huge part of our job right now. And it's I mean, gosh, the it isn't such a roller coaster of a year you and I were both on track for a green light like we were literally on the same timeline. This is not a joke. And then you had like a huge no, a big yes. And then mine

Frank Carlisi (26:28)
Yep.

Yep.

Madelyn Cunningham (26:46)
killed. Yours, I don't know where it went. The same shows. like it is a wild ride. There are many ups and downs. It takes years typically. A lot of faith, a lot of resilience and...

Frank Carlisi (26:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (27:06)
I just kind of hanging on. mean, you and I both also like didn't haven't done development full time. Like we have also had other jobs. And so, you know, this is something that, that we, and a lot of people in development who have other, you know, sort of other like either side hustles or this is their side hustle, whatever, but it's, it's just been a crazy roller coaster. So tell me how you, you know, work through like,

Frank Carlisi (27:11)
Bye.

Definitely.

All

Madelyn Cunningham (27:31)
a rejection or disappointment and sort of like get back out there and like, have you just kind of made your peace with it and you know it's just part of it or do you have like a little bit of a ritual to like feel your feelings and then get right back out there?

Frank Carlisi (27:34)
Yeah.

Well, this was the time you're referencing for both of us was January, literally a year ago, right? We had a conversation. We were going into the holiday last year, very optimistic about. Yeah. It's happening. We're there. finally.

Madelyn Cunningham (27:51)
Yeah. ⁓ God. Yeah, you're right.

⁓ we were like, we were right. Wait, you're right. We were both like, Merry Christmas to us. Like we were so excited. You're right. You're right.

Frank Carlisi (28:11)
You know, and again, it's super funny, but like, I feel like every year, I kind of for the last, I'd say five or so years have left the year with a very positive outlook on what the next year is going to be. that's another, we could talk about that too, going into a new year with a new idea, new year, new you, but I think for, to answer your question about sort of the process of rejection, it doesn't hurt as much as it used to.

Madelyn Cunningham (28:31)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (28:39)
last year because it's the first one. We've had deals with four, three networks, this is the fourth, where we've gotten to do various steps of presentation tapes, casting, so on and so forth. this one felt...

This one probably felt the worst because the show felt so perfect. Everything was aligned And then I was literally at my in-laws

in their attic on a zoom with everyone and she called us and said yeah they passed. We were waiting for a full season order and that was probably the first week of January, second week of January so we're going into that year hot and then BAM! I think for that one it stung for a second just because of our relationship with the talent. She's family to us and it hurt her so I think that for me

Madelyn Cunningham (29:18)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (29:31)
as an empath that was the hardest part but for my process we moved on pretty quickly and we started thinking quick right

Madelyn Cunningham (29:40)
Mm.

Frank Carlisi (29:40)
or going, okay, now we got to look at this with a different lens. Where else can this go? What other ways in can we approach? Can we beef up the narrative a little bit and bring this to a different platform? it's my advice to any listeners would be those hits at this step are gonna happen. You're doing great work just by getting where you are.

It's wild but never let those shake you because I could tell you firsthand with a little creative thinking critical thinking I should say We were able to pivot it out Align get that bench back together and go. Alright guys, let's move and it moved over at A &E so yeah, it's

Madelyn Cunningham (30:24)
Mm-hmm.

It really is about like, this isn't the prettiest term ever, like ringing the dishrag out, right? So you have your initial idea, you make it stronger, you take it to your bench, whether that's a creative partner, other producers, an agent, whatever, and you take it out and you get the feedback. And then you're like, okay, let's change the POV, let's change the format. And that's part of it.

there's so many different pieces to it, but I think when you really love this and you're really dedicated to it, you sort of almost take the rejection and the no as just like, you're like ammunition boom. Like, let me just take that, put it in and we take it as a challenge and we do everything we can. And again, you look at it like,

Maybe that created a new relationship that was, you know, some, I don't know, a genre I'd never developed it before or whatever, but yeah, it's pretty tough. Okay, so regarding your latest green light, and I know that there's not, I'm not sure really quite how much you can talk about. I know that we're looking at July, July 12th, and I'll be at the party, but tell me, you know, it's been an up and down process.

Frank Carlisi (31:18)
Yeah.

The large 12.

Madelyn Cunningham (31:37)
It is with talent that you were really good friends with. know a lot of the times, a lot of my initial projects and still are like, you're pitching shows with people you know really well. And that can be, really, it's so hard because you're trying to communicate. They're like, is my life going to change? What's this going to be? And you're trying to figure out how to like talk to them about it and be honest and be realistic. And they're riding the roller coaster with you of

Frank Carlisi (31:42)
We'll right there.

Madelyn Cunningham (32:03)
interests and passes and pickups and pilots and like, so tell me sort of the top things you learned from like this project specifically that you'll really take with you moving forward.

Frank Carlisi (32:16)
Absolutely. So back to that whole, we're gonna call it what it is. We're gonna call it Insecurity, Industry Insecurity. Maybe that could be the name of this episode. Battling Industry Insecurity with Frank and Maddie. That's a whole nother show. We can do that. But I think what I learned from this process was to throw that out the door.

Madelyn Cunningham (32:32)
I love it.

Frank Carlisi (32:41)
So, you know, there's only so many times you could say, this is my first show on the air. Like, got it, okay? I will never say that again, and I'm lucky that I don't have to, of course. But I came into my own power when I started to...

want to approach this from a perspective of wanting to learn, but also respected my own creative and managerial skills. I learned that in this process. I think that's first and foremost. I volunteered to work in the side of the business where I think the whole entire business is going, which is what we were discussing, partnerships, brand partnerships, brand alignment, just because it always interests me.

and I had a phenomenal, phenomenal mentor in that space who I worked very, very closely with and learned a lot from. And he, you know, was someone that was so willing to teach, but I had to ask for that position. So something that I learned is when you're, even if you're on your own show, I said, I will PA the show. I don't care. I just want to be in the experience, but I found the position in the show

that made the most sense for me and that was, you know, working in that silo. So I definitely think that that's something that I've learned is if you do the further along you get, the more opportunity that you have to seek out yourself and ask for. And no one's going to offer it to you. You need to say this is what I want to do to be a better professional, to be a better creative. If I wanted to learn how to hold the camera and, you know, get in there with that team, I know every single gentleman

you know, person on our crew would have taught me because they're that type of crew. So it's asking for what piece, especially as an independent producer without that infrastructure, it's asking for the piece that you see yourself in moving forward into the next project after that. So that's kind of what I've learned during the process. Working with friends is, I don't have to tell you this girl, is always a challenge because you want to insulate them from hurt, I've learned.

Madelyn Cunningham (34:23)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (34:49)
And I think that's something that I...

Of course would do because again our talent is basically like our sister. We're that close to her. But I think the instinct to protect her from nose and all that stuff was what we were trying to do. I maybe wouldn't have done that again. I would have let her been really, you know, it might have stung for a bit, but I think trusting her and in the process of working with talent that closely is letting them really experience

Madelyn Cunningham (35:08)
Hmm.

Frank Carlisi (35:20)
the business, they're fast-tracked to do so, but letting them really see what this really looks like, because at the end we got there and she's already seen all those notes, knows everything already, but it took her a little time because we were protecting her potentially from some of it. So that's some key takeaways there. And also, like I said, working with the production company that gets the DNA of the show and finding those right people and we were able to do that.

Madelyn Cunningham (35:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (35:48)
So those have been my takeaways from our show.

Madelyn Cunningham (35:50)
"Our" show. I'm just, I'm so excited. Like it, I'm just so happy for you. most of the concepts that are out there that do well, that are talent driven. It's housewives, it's Mormon wives, it's Southern charm, it's Vanderpump. It's, you know, it's real people. And so in development specifically, we're working with real people and you're trying to, you want to protect them because for you, this is one idea out of a hundred.

For them, like, it feels like something that could change their lives in one way or another. you are very aware of that. And I think I've also learned over the years to be, yeah, very straight up. Like, hey, I cannot promise you anything. I can only promise you that we're gonna give this our best shot. We're gonna take it out. We're gonna be honest to who you are, how you live, your occupation, whatever we're doing with you.

I can just tell you we're gonna swing big and see what happens and I'll keep you updated, you know? And yeah, you kind of learn how to do that, but you do internalize their anxiety initially a lot. because I'd just be like, they're trusting me and what if, you know what I mean? it easier like everything does,

Are there any sort of like...

Are you focusing on development right now? Are there any big ideas that are like spaces that you're sort of into or that you think are going to really come into the zeitgeist

Frank Carlisi (37:06)
Yeah, you know what? It's been a challenging year in development for us and for me in particular, just because it's been a transition year and working with a show of this magnitude, you know, it's sort of been pretty much all creative, you know, all your creative juices are going into that space and all your thought processes and all your energy are in something that's already passed the development step. And, you know, it's,

It's

shooting for series. So I think a lot of the ideas that we have were exactly what we were discussing earlier. We're looking at concepts that maybe got, we got told no, and what can we do with them to fit into this marketplace? I definitely think, keeping up with current events, we talk about this all the time. What's in the news? What's on TikTok?

Madelyn Cunningham (37:57)
We are screen-shotting and sending each

other videos constantly.

Frank Carlisi (38:01)
Yeah.

Constantly and it's what you have to do, of course. you know looking at trends but also looking at you know looking at the world from sort of a bird's-eye view of what is the feeling that we're all trying to collectively have together And what is that now? You know, it's it's a sense of warmth. It's a sense of comfort You know, I do think we talk about the business side of this and finding partners but I do think that there is

still a need for human stories that we can look at and see ourselves in. I think that's never going to change.

It's just about finding those stories that can hold, sustain a full 12 episode order. Right? So new things, you know, come from old things. So I'm looking at the new year with, with a nice deck of content that we're retooling reshaping, but some

Madelyn Cunningham (38:46)
willing.

Frank Carlisi (38:58)
trends that I really do see, like I mentioned before and I can't stress it enough, is looking at a brand and finding out what you can do to take that brand and translate that to the screen in a fun, interesting sort of way. I love looking at international markets. I'm a nerd like that. I'm obsessed with trying to see what is a huge, know, how do you take a Japanese game show

and turn it into something here in the States. What is going on in the BBC that I'm not aware of, that we could potentially take a theme of and bring it to our market and so on and so forth. So I think it's reading the news, staying up to date on trends, connecting on a human level, but also having a sort of a business sense that you can insert some dollars into.

Madelyn Cunningham (39:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Frank Carlisi (39:52)
a concept.

Madelyn Cunningham (39:53)
again, you have to be a little dreamy and delusional to feel like it's gonna work. And a little bit of that with business sense and acumen, think typically works. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a couple of just fun questions, because you shared so much amazing knowledge with us. What is a show that you wish you created?

Frank Carlisi (39:56)
yeah.

Love it.

my goodness. A show that I wish I created was The Apprentice. Yes, 100%. Mark Burnett, mean, doesn't get better than that. Yes.

Madelyn Cunningham (40:19)
Ooh, nice. Yeah.

Icon, icon.

What is a show that you wish you were a part of the cast for?

Frank Carlisi (40:31)
The Jersey Shore, hello? GTL, I mean, come on. Talk with my hands all the time.

Madelyn Cunningham (40:37)
Yes

culture,

culture, a cultural shift, I think about how much reality stars specifically have changed since then how everything is filtered, everyone's a brand and like absolutely hell yes respect, but it was just so unhinged, raw, untethered.

Frank Carlisi (40:54)
wrong.

Madelyn Cunningham (40:57)
In those days, it was just, it's wild that we got that kind of insight into the world.

Frank Carlisi (41:03)
So fun.

Yeah, I grew up with half of those people anyway, so that really wasn't such a stretch for people in my circle. But anyway.

Madelyn Cunningham (41:09)
Amazing. I love it. What

is the genre that you like if you could develop in one genre only, what would it be?

Frank Carlisi (41:17)
Okay, so I'm gonna, that's a tough question because I think I want to be the producer that breaks what the word genre is in this space. I...

I think that there's something really interesting about blending scripted and unscripted that you and I have a lot to unpack this year and figure it out. We've discussed this. I've discussed this with so many different producers. think jury duty set a tone for where this can go. So I'm going to answer that question very vaguely and say there is no drama. The limit does not exist to quote Mean Girls. We want to sort of look at what is a new sort

Madelyn Cunningham (41:43)
Totally.

Frank Carlisi (41:59)
of modality that we can develop in that space. And I really think it's blending. It's creating, bringing together two different worlds in a way that are so interesting and out of the box. So I'm gonna say scripted and unscripted. That's what I'm. Yeah.

Madelyn Cunningham (42:13)
Mm. Okay. I would love it. I love it. What are you?

What are you watching right now?

Frank Carlisi (42:20)
Okay, so I've been a terrible reality unscripted producer because I have fallen off the wagon. All of my favorite shows, I used to be a Housewives connoisseur. And I'm having a hard time connecting again, because to your point a little bit about overproduced and polished, I feel like with the exception of the real Housewives of Salt Lake City,

Madelyn Cunningham (42:27)
you

Frank Carlisi (42:46)
the rest of them have gotten to the point where I feel that I can't enjoy them because I know too much now. So I'm a little bit off of that. I'm watching a lot of scripted stuff. I've been watching a lot of, my God, we're in the middle of watching Veep right now, which again,

Madelyn Cunningham (42:54)
Mm-hmm.

Who told me?

I've never seen, which I feel like

is a sin.

Frank Carlisi (43:08)
Yeah, it's back to blurring the lines of breaking the fourth wall and having, you know, the office and parks and rec and those in jury duty and Veep like and Larry and curb your enthusiasm. How do we get that energy into something unscripted is kind of where my mind is going. The diplomat, obviously it's phenomenal. love Felicity forever. And what else are we watching? And I'm rewatching my one of my favorite shows.

ever Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch. One of my favorite shows. So that's what's on the DVR as they used to say

Madelyn Cunningham (43:38)
Mmm, mm-hmm.

Frank Carlisi (43:44)
I actually I don't think I've ever told you this but I if I'm ever really stale I have an old I have DVDs of course I do like and I've I'm the type of crazy person that alphabetized them all and keep them in like a shoebox with like And I'm like, just want to look of course it is but what I'll do is I will flip them over and sometimes you forget the name of the movie and I read the backs of the synopsis of the DVD and I write down words and

Madelyn Cunningham (43:56)
This is on brand.

Ooh.

Frank Carlisi (44:11)
is sometimes how I come to unscript or I boil down the movie if I know it so well. What is this real feeling that I feel when I watch this or what is what's the reality version of something scripted and I'll go through my DVD boxes and just do that exercise and it frees my brain sometimes. Yeah, wild.

Madelyn Cunningham (44:16)
Mm-hmm.

I love that. I love that. ugh, it's, I

feel like we're just, it's fun to get to do what we do. And I loved hearing about your process and we've just, I was actually just remembering when you went through that no in January.

And I think I was hurting with you. I was hurting you. I was hurting so bad. think, didn't I send you, you're talking about DVDs, didn't I send you, I sent you Credence, wait, I sent you Credence Clearwater Revival, like have you ever seen the rain? Because I was just, I was hurting so much for you. And then now look at you. That was a year ago. Your show is premiering

Frank Carlisi (44:55)
You're sending a record.

Greetings.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:10)
Things change, you stick with it, you have faith, you retool it, you get creative, and that's just what you've done, and I'm so proud of you, and thank you for sharing everything that you've shared, and I just can't wait to see what more you do, and what more we can do together.

Frank Carlisi (45:28)
Thank you for having me on this. This was like, we could talk for hours and hours and hours, but I hope the viewers and listeners pick up some really cool tips today. And it was just great to be here with you as always.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:32)
I

It was so good. Okay, talk to you soon. I'll text you actually.

Frank Carlisi (45:43)
Yay. Okay,

thanks for having me.

Madelyn Cunningham (45:52)
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Frank. is so magnetic and so incredible. That's why he's been successful. Again, Betting on Beloit premieres July 12th on A &E. I'm so excited and happy for him. I hope you guys have a wonderful weekend. I hope you're able to take some things from this episode and ⁓ apply it to your own life or your own career, your own unconventional path.

I will see you next week on The Unscripted Files. Don't forget, like, subscribe, rate, review, all the things, and we'll see you soon.

Madelyn Cunningham (46:23)
The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.