Madelyn Cunningham (00:05)
Hey, hey, welcome to The Unscripted Files. I'm Madeline Cunningham, a development producer in the industry who's bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite reality television. Our first episode last week was with Emmy award-winning casting director Quinn Fagan. I appreciate every rating, review, subscription. You guys sent me messages that you loved the episode and it just meant so much. I'm so excited for this new adventure.

the people I'm gonna get to talk to and bring to you guys and it's just been super fulfilling. I questioned really a lot if I was gonna do this podcast and honestly, I really had to remind myself yesterday that this was a good idea and so I really appreciate all of your support. Before we get into this week's episode, I'll chat really quickly about what I'm watching this week. I'm catching up on Southern Charm and the latest.

Season and then I need to binge all of Southern Hospitality the spinoff with to prepare for this guest. I'm really excited about that. I'm also getting into the latest season of traitors and Special forces there's so much good TV out right now

and doing some outreach to people on those shows to see if we can get them on to talk. So I'm very, very excited. This week's episode is with a friend, is with a mentor. She was a top model producer on the early seasons and talks about all, we get into all the top model lore.

Then we talk about her time on What Not To Wear with Stacey and Clinton, which is actually getting rebooted. And so it's the perfect time to have that conversation. We talk about her bringing Barbie Dreamhouse Challenge to HGTV to be sort of the pioneering project for both the Warner Brothers and Discovery brands to work together with their merger.

She's just such a delight and it was amazing to chat with her. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Maggie Zeltner.

Bradley Carpenter (02:14)
Well, you. You know, I adore you and you've always been.

such a wonderful colleague and also just like a great person. I remember like the first time you were like, can I just pick your brain or whatever? And I was like, yes, please. Cause you know, love talking. So I'm so happy to be here. that means so much to me. Yes. I, my first job out when we met was at scripts, which is, was discovery and is now Warner brothers discovery. And you rode the wave through all of that. I, you, I joined a mentorship program because I

Wanted to get into production, was trying to figure it out. And you so graciously allowed me to sit in your office. And I think we watched talent tapes and you were asking me what I thought. And I was like, is this real life? I just loved every second of it. from truly Maggie, from that moment forward, I was like, this is what I want to do. And that was on what? 26, I think it was 2016 or 2017. So it's been years. And now I finally.

full time in development because you planted that seed and it's just, it's so fun to be full circle with you now. that's so nice. You know, I think it's, it's always been really important to me to make sure that we're going beyond our target audience of, of what, you know, what people like. And I'd love to talk to younger people, especially say like, is this cool? Is this not? And I loved it because you were totally honest. And, I think it's.

It was so necessary, but no, for real, like Madeline, I'm so, I'm so happy to see you living your dream. like, I knew from the get-go that you were like a smart, ambitious person. So I was like, okay, this girl is amazing and also worth everybody's time to get to know and. You know, show you how it's done because that's how you learn. And that's how I learned. I was, I was so lucky to have people in my career.

do the same thing for me. to me, it's like all about, you know, paying it back. And that's, that's really important to me. And I know you will do the same too. And that's like why I started this because when I was trying to figure out what this looked like and like what development looked like in this, this sort of career, I was looking for.

things to listen to on my commute or whatever, just interviews and hearing people's stories. And I was like, where are they? This is like the number one form of entertainment that we consume. And I couldn't kind of find the like behind the gate sort of stories of people and how they got into it what that looks like. And so before we started recording, we were talking about.

My Roman Empire, America's Next Top Model. You worked on the early seasons. I think you said like two through five and then season eight. So I was actually catching up on those today, looking through. gosh, just some of the, you were a part of some of the most iconic moments. Like we were all rooting for you. Like with Tiffany, when Shandy cheats on her boyfriend, we've got season eight when Brittany, bless her heart, got that weave. Oh my God. I mean, you just.

You just were a part of that. There's a lot of retrospection about ANTM at the moment and all of us who grew up on it and sort of the amazing pieces of it. And then some of the things that maybe, I don't know, we could learn from. But I just want to know at that time, tell me what your role was on that show and talk to me about what it was like behind the scenes. So I started on season two as an associate producer. It was basically

Broken up as a team. So you had a producer an associate producer and a PA as a three-person team and in those days This was 2003 so we didn't have an art department. We didn't have a locations department. I have to say that show Was like boot camp for me. I mean it was like reality boot camp. Nothing Has ever been harder than that and nothing. I hopefully will be

relatively speaking, you know, in terms of reality TV making and I was young so it was really fun, but it was trial by fire. So I was hired as associate producer in season two, which was in New York and I just learned tons. I had an amazing producer, Jamie Glasson, who later became like, you know, executive producer of ANTM and other shows with Kyra, but she was a former model. So she knew.

everything about the industry. I didn't, but I knew a lot about producing television. So, and she did too. And so we just, and we had also our, actually our coordinator, Erin Sampson is like amazing and huge big time now. Like she does all these scripted shows. I mean, look her up. She's unbelievable. But, so we were a team and we just had to literally like, was like, okay, so the girls have to learn runway this season.

How are we going to make it different? The girls have to get a makeover this season. Where are we going to do it? How's it going to be different? All that kind of stuff. So, um, that's how I learned. in those early days, I mean, we were basically judging went till like five in the morning. mean, was, we were still working out a lot of kinks. The girls lived in this Soho loft that I'm pretty sure we should look this up, but I'm pretty sure it was like the loft that Heath Ledger lived in anyway.

It was on Street. tea, okay. I know. It was on Groom Street and it was gorgeous. And then the production office and the judging was sort of the first floor, like where a retail space would normally be. So this was again, 2003. So New York was expensive, but I don't think that we could have probably gotten that, you know, any other time. so it was just amazing. It was a blast. And then...

Season three, myself and my colleague Derek Wan, who was the other producer, or the other associate producer, he and I both were promoted to producer season three. And so from then on, we became producers and headed up our own teams. So, and Derek Wan is actually a Netflix executive who oversees like Love is Blind and all these incredible shows. So when I tell you that show was bootcamp, I mean, some of the best people in the business have come out of

that show and that era because it was so, it was just an unbelievable learning experience. And Anthony Domenici was our executive producer and I knew him from the real world before and I just adore him. He's so creative and smart and brilliant. And so we all were really learning from him and just like doing it. mean, these were the days also like Tyra didn't have her talk show, so we would go and pitch her ideas.

in her suite at whatever hotel we were living in, she'd be in her bathrobe, like no makeup on and just like, okay, tell me like what you have. And she is very, very smart about what, what's going to be the water cooler moment. What, what are we going to, you know what I mean? Like she knows what a top model needs to go through, but she also knows like how we can sort of turn it up a little bit. so Derek and I.

were like, like we flip-flopped episodes. So if I did, he did one, I did two and he did three, I did four. Like he always did the runway challenges and I always did the makeovers. My favorite, I love makeovers. I've loved them. I mean, I've done so many shows with them. I just think they're amazing. Who determines, so the makeovers are a big point of conversation looking back on them because some of them were so. Yeah, they didn't turn out great sometimes.

real. yeah, some of them were so controversial. You know, look, sometimes what Tyra is looking for for the girls don't necessarily get interpreted as such. we had, you know, she had really wanted sort of like a Mia Farah Rosemary's baby for one of the girls. And it just didn't turn out that way. And you could kind of see it. then that girl just like totally lost it. And Tyra was pretty like

this isn't really what I wanted and then cut it even shorter, which was better, but I don't think that girl liked it very much. And then she went home, I think that episode or the next episode. So did Tyra solely determine like what would be done with the girls in terms of their looks? Like it was all kind of her artistic direction for the makeovers? Yes, I would say it was definitely driven by Tyra and

She, she, she would consult with J. Manuel, Mr. J. And of course, J. Alexander, J. Um, you know, they would all discuss it, but yes, she definitely drove it. And you know, she's very decisive. Like she knows what she wants for the girls. And there's no malice. There's no mal intention there. She's really trying to push girls to be out of their comfort zone.

but only in a look that she thinks is gonna flatter them. Whether that's executed well or not is really sometimes out of our hands, but yes, they are totally driven. She knows what she wants and she knows what's gonna look the best for these girls in a top model situation. might not just be like hanging out at the mall situation. Right. I mean, I can't imagine producing this show because you have...

the models in the houses, you have runway challenges, which is just essentially producing a fashion show. mean, that's what you guys had to do. There were always crowds. There was always a guest judge. Then you have a photo shoot, some sort of campaign, or you have a cover girl commercial. Then you go internationally to a city you've never been. And you have those kind of amazing race like a go see challenges where they're trying to get in tuk-tuks or taxis and like speak the language and go everywhere. That is, it's so much to manage on top of.

the interpersonal dynamics happening at the house. I'll explain to you a little bit better how it works. And I think that'll help answer what you're talking about. as I said, producing wise, there were essentially two teams that produced what we called the teach, which is where the girls learned something at the top of the episode and the challenge, which is where they're challenged in it. Then there was a separate producing team for photo shoot and judging. that we didn't, Derek and I didn't really have much of a say in other than like,

the theme of the episode. So the theme of the episode might be runway or within that it might be like marching band and then everything's sort of themed to that. So that's how that worked at home base. Then we have for the house reality, you know, whenever they're just not at a produce challenge or things like that, and they're just hanging out in the house, there are directors and a whole video village and everything that's just at the house. They are directing camera and they are monitoring story. What's going on in the house.

They're sort of just kind of keeping an eye on everything. And then there is an international producing team as well. So they go ahead to whatever the international location is, literally plan the whole thing, get everything ready so that when we all land, I mean us, the cast, know, including the experts and Tyra and everyone, producers, everyone, we're ready to go. Like we go around, we scout what they've done and make any tweaks that we need to, but.

for the most part that's been established. So that makes it a little bit easier. We're still kind of always on the fly in any of these situations. You can produce a situation however you want it, but once those girls walk in there, I mean, it's sort of hands off and however they engage in the situation is on them. And to me, that is what makes a good TV show. mean, just set the situation and then just let it go.

And see how, you know, see what happened. So yeah, it was trial by fire. Again, the best way to learn is really just to be thrown in and do it. Like you sort of had to sink or swim. There was no two ways about it. Also by season three, the show had gotten really popular and the, the media was really on our tail, like surprisingly enough about trying to figure out who was eliminated and who wasn't.

So we would have girls, obviously they got eliminated, they still had to stay because you couldn't send them home, because then it would make everyone realize they're not on the show anymore. And then we would use them as what we called bogeys, sort of to throw anybody who was following us off the scent. So they would come in and out of challenges and walk in and out of the hotel. it was like on toting around like a...

like a president or a politician or something. Yeah, it's like trying to figure out who's going to be the next bachelor or something like or who who who ends up being like they send them off on secret happy couple weekends and it's all like clandestine. That's why I didn't think about that because it was so I mean it was the show. Is there a moment that didn't make it to TV?

that you were like, was like so wild or so crazy or that you think should have like that sweet Shandy cheating on her boyfriend in season two. I'll tell you about that. I honestly cannot think of anything that we didn't show that we were like, we should have shown that we showed pretty much everything that happened.

Maggie (16:07)
So we were in Milan and I remember the directors kind of following Shandi's story and listening and

we were in this gorgeous villa in Lake Como and they could hear like something's going down, like she's gonna call her boyfriend about cheating on him with this Italian guy. And so, you know, the crew, we were just sort of all in this villa and they were like, get out, like, get out, like, let's like give them space, you know, to have this moment. So we all went out to the back, cause it was this huge villa with.

like tons of land and beautiful vineyards. And we all just sort of sat there and drank Italian wine and got to have actually like a little bit of downtime because Shandi was calling, this is so terrible, because Shandi was calling her boyfriend to tell her about the cheating. So Anthony and the directors inside were just like, everybody be quiet, like just go outside. And so they focused on that. And then we all sort of were like, well, we produced so much of this, you know, Italian stuff already.

You know, we produced so much in Milan. We had done the go sees, I think, at that point. So we were kind of just hanging out, drinking wine, honestly, not even knowing what was actually happening in the house where Shandi was crying and leaving until after. And then we all felt so bad because she was honestly an absolute sweetheart. She, she really was. And

You know, she really was like that story. She was plucked out of wherever, out of a Walgreens. And it was so new to her, all of this. And she was really so sweet.

Madelyn (17:39)
we were talking before about how I said, I wasn't going to say this, but I'll say it about how I auditioned for ANTM and I made like the semi-semi-finals on the East coast. And I was in the room with Laura James who won season 19 and we were, chatted it up or whatever, but I went home. got, made the next cut. went home with a very, very thick application and

my boyfriend at the time was so not into it, like did not want me to go. and the Shandi example of like her cheating on the boyfriend was used. Maggie, was like, it was like this could happen. just totally let them convince me that like, I shouldn't go on. the Shandi situation was used. Isn't that.

Maggie (18:20)
my gosh.

Madelyn (18:22)
funny, but I, it's just, my God.

Okay, so I read that in season three, when the contestants go to Japan, that they were detained the airport or at customs because were suspected that they were sex workers. Is this true?

Maggie (18:38)
Yeah,

yes, they were detained at the airport for quite a long time. And there were so many calls back and forth between Japan and New York and what we were doing. And everyone was like whispering about it like.

The girls are detained, everyone's detained, they're still there, they're still there, they're still there. And yeah, they were detained for hours because they were unsure of what was going on. It was only season three of the show, there was no international version I think at that point. So really, you see all of these young women, you see these camera equipment and these people trying to shuffle them through with all this discretion because we're trying to keep.

anybody who's following us at bay to not know who's been eliminated and these are like the final few girls so i would imagine that if you're objectively viewing this you're like what is going on and thank goodness they were looking out for the girls it ended up being fine in the end and they figured it out but yeah it was a little nuts to say the least but

Madelyn (19:40)
okay. There was a season four. Okay. There's a couple of moments in season four. maybe the most iconic moment that continues to get brought up, which is with Tiffany. when Tyra just kind of loses it during an elimination.

And it's like, we're all rooting for you. Nothing was nice for the cameras anymore. this is Tyra to Tiffany. This is not host to contestant. It just really felt like there was a little bit of fourth wall breaking and just total emotion. What was that like?

Maggie (20:12)
Yeah.

It was 100 % raw, like, and real. And nobody knew it was coming. Our executive producer, Ken Mok was like, what? And he knows Tyra the best. I mean, they developed the show together. everybody was like, wow. Because as I said, in those early seasons, judging ran late. It was...

really long into the evening, especially after if you had done other things that day, and that was also the time that Tyra was getting her talk show going. So she was really juggling two humongous shows that she was at the helm of. And so she was tired. mean, I think, like, to me she's a superwoman, and I think she's amazing and can do everything, but.

Nobody can juggle all of that and not have a moment where they're being vulnerable. So she, that was all real. She felt that about Tiffany. She really believed in her. She was just kind of frustrated and it was late at night and nobody saw it coming. And it was just like, And then, I mean, it's become sort of this moment in history, TV history now, but it was absolutely real.

raw, like she was, she just really wanted Tiffany to succeed and she was frustrated.

Madelyn (21:35)
it was super raw and real and still to this day gets brought up an iconic TV moment, as an iconic moment in unscripted reality television and just as a cultural moment, honestly,

I swear I will stop talking about Top Model. Okay.

Maggie (21:47)
No, no, I actually have a

couple. I can share a couple more stories, but ask your question.

Madelyn (21:51)
Yes, please.

Go, I want you to share. If there's a story that you have.

Maggie (21:56)
couples. I'll tell you my favorite challenge I ever did. So Derek was doing the teach where the models learn runway and I did the challenge in this one. And it was all about sort of navigating the runway, no matter what the fashion designer, the fashion house is going to throw at you.

Madelyn (22:01)
yes.

Maggie (22:19)
So speaking of early 2000s, do you remember Heatherette? They were, okay. So Heatherette was this absolutely amazing fashion label in the 2000s, started by Richie Rich, who was one of the original club kids, and Traver Rains, who was like born bred Montana cowboy, like come to New York, partner with Richie for this fashion line. And...

Madelyn (22:24)
Yes.

Maggie (22:45)
They just had like a lot of really cool people be a part of it. And Paris Hilton used to model a lot of theirs. So they created an entire runway show for us. And what we did was we had this

Crooked runway. So it wasn't like crooked in the sense that it was like lopsided. It was, it just had a lot of twists and turns and it was in a nightclub. And so it was really about giving these women a chance to just like trial by fire. Can you exist in any runway? And they had these super high platforms and these amazing outfits and

They had invited all these really cool club kids from New York there. And we sat there and designed and sketched out this runway together. And of course, Noelle fell. mean, no doubt about it. Like somebody was gonna fall and she went down hard. And she was pretty tall.

So we had Amanda who had, I think, degenerative eye issue or she was going blind. So her vision was a little bit blurry, but I was honestly super impressed at how she like stepped up. She was like, I can see the glitter, like I'm gonna do it. And she nailed it. It was amazing. But everybody's favorite when she walked out on that runway was Takara, 100%.

That girl could light up a room in two seconds. She walked out there with that presence, strutting that crooked runway or whatever. it was, the crowd just screamed for her and she was like a star. And honestly, Yaya, Eva, they were in that season too and they're all so beautiful and stars as well. But Takara was my girl. I just loved her. She lit up a room. She was so good.

Madelyn (24:06)
presence.

Maggie (24:32)
Now you want me to talk about that other challenge I told you about in season five with the boot camp.

Madelyn (24:33)
I love that.

Yes.

Yes.

Maggie (24:41)
So, okay. I think we're doing our best, again, to create challenging situations, yes, based on real modeling experience,

And so we always had to stick to that, even if it sometimes seemed ridiculous. So that's how these sort of challenges came about. But sometimes the situations were not intended to be maybe as challenging as they ended up being. there's an example in, and I've heard some of the girls talk about this. So I want to clear the air.

So cycle five, did, we were in LA and we did sort of a bootcamp challenge. Cause we always had a fitness challenge in New York. We had the girls climb up, I don't know, 15 flights of stairs and then had to do a photo shoot right then and there on the roof.

And honestly, that was a fantastic challenge because most of the girls nailed it. but this was sort of a bootcamp, challenge where the idea was that they were doing this sort of army-like bootcamp through mud, you know, like over ropes, under things. And, like the surprise was they got into a limo and they went right to a go-see after that.

Madelyn (25:42)
I remember this, yes.

Maggie (25:50)
So, you know, as I said, we didn't have like an art department at that point, we didn't have a locations team. It was all in us. So we were constantly changing and working on things till the very last minute.

So the night before that challenge, we went to go scout the location and there wasn't nearly enough dirt in the ground to really do the thing that we were challenging these girls to do, to run through this muddy dirt. So it was like 10 o'clock at night and we had to send our team of PAs out to go get dirt.

And I think Home Depot was open 24 hours at that point. And so we just sent them out, gave them money, bring it to the challenge. We had to start at 7 a.m. or whatever, and we'll see you there. So I get there after they did. They've already put the mud down, and it looks really good. But as I'm walking towards it, I'm like, this smells odd. What is going on?

Meanwhile, the girls are on their way, so there's no time to change anything. And what happened was the PAs that went out to get the mud didn't realize they got mud with fertilizer in it. So there was like this kind of stinky manure fertilizer smell.

It was like one of those like comedy of errors, you know, it's it still boggles my mind that we didn't have just regular dirt, It had already been done and we had to keep on schedule

And so it was like go time and we had no time to change out the dirt. So it was mostly regular dirt with some of the supplemented fertilizer infused dirt. And so the girls just had to do it. And I mean, more power to them. did it. But that challenge ended up being grosser than we had ever intended it to be. That was never our intention to make it.

have fertilizer or be smelly or anything. I've heard some cast members talk about how malicious that was and how we made them run through fertilizer. And I think about it now and I feel like we should have just said hold

Madelyn (27:51)
Mm.

Maggie (27:59)
But at the end of the day, it wasn't about that at all. It was like a matter of circumstance. So sometimes I think people assume the worst, which I understand. I mean, as you said, the early 2000s were a very salacious time for reality television, unscripted television. But that was specifically not ever meant to have that smelly fertilizer in it. And it just ended up having

having it and we had to stay on schedule. that is a little bit of behind the scenes for you

Madelyn (28:34)
Yeah, and it's so hard, Maggie. It's like you, and you're under the pressure of the schedule, of the debt. Like there's so much weighing on you yeah, I can't imagine what I would do in that situation.

my God. what a piece of like, A ANTM and history.

Maggie (28:51)
Exactly. And I honestly,

I felt so bad every time I hear people talk about like former cast members talk about that I think, you know, also me being a lot younger and like just like all that pressure, you're just like, okay, we got to go.

You know, look, I think some producers of that day were going for the salacious, not necessarily, I'm not speaking about A NTM but just look at all the other shows like Joe The Bachelor, or like, there were a lot of also like bait and switch shows

I think it's gotten a lot better. But it's, yeah, from the, after that, I think I worked a lot more on shows that felt,

a lot more documentary-like and dealt more with reality, real life, know, uplifting things. But I have no regrets, no regrets.

Madelyn (29:32)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Speaking of bait and switch, okay, what not to wear. And it's actually getting rebooted. I don't know if you saw that, but it's getting rebooted with Stacey and Clinton and that show, I see so like many funny memes about that show. It's like,

Maggie (29:51)
Yes.

Madelyn (29:56)
yeah, you had a bad day, but did your best friend submit you for what not to wear? Like just hilarious, like hilarious memes about it where, know, Stacey and Clint, the whole, whoever like hasn't watched this, whole premise of the show is that a family or friend or a coworker feels like you need a style overhaul and they submit you with maybe some secret video or photos of you and your style. And then Stacey and Clinton kind of do a little gentle ambush of like, hey there, we're going to now like,

Maggie (30:00)
Yeah

Madelyn (30:25)
whisk you off and we're going to give you a style makeover, a confidence makeover, you know, sort of all in one. were super blunt, super straightforward. You directed the show as well. So me just really quickly when it came to that sort of, surprise element with these individuals, how did that.

go

Maggie (30:46)
So I worked on that show starting at the very end of season six, and it went through season 10. So I wasn't there for the beginning, those early, early seasons. So by the time I got there, I think things had changed a little bit. We were very cautious to only choose people that were nominated by a really loving, from a loving

Early seasons, I think they had some issues with people who were nominated by like a coworker something where maybe it wasn't really the best intention. But by the time I came around, it was very, very, it was mandatory that we really find people that, know, either they're a family member or their best friend, as you said, like from a total loving place wants to see them transform into their best version of themselves.

I will just say this, Stacey and Clinton are absolutely amazing. some of the few talent I've ever worked with that are exactly the same on and off camera. They are just that funny. They are just that smart. They are just that stylish. They are just that, like, amazing. Like, if you find that you can match with them, you feel like a million bucks. They're just, I...

like adore them forever and ever. We spent a lot of time together. So basically the ambush, as you said, so it's very coordinated. So there is a location director that goes to, we would shoot it in chunks. So let's say we were shooting four episodes in Memphis. So we had four people specifically from Memphis and we would spend a week ambushing, you know, all four of them. So there's a location director and producer that go ahead.

Madelyn (32:07)
Mm.

Maggie (32:25)
and set up all the ambushes. And they're all related usually to something that is in the person's life or the location. So we did one at like a horse ranch. We did one at like, we were in Nashville. We did like a honky tonk or something, you know? We did like one of those country bars in Nashville. And like they, as we went on, they got like really more elaborate.

we did this whole like fake reality show one time but they were incredibly coordinated and it was like, you know, you count it down, like go, go. And it was just like,

There's no going back once they go in. Like you have had to set up perfectly. Honestly, it was like planning a surprise party every single time.

Madelyn (33:03)
Ugh.

Maggie (33:08)
And what that show did, because it was shot over a week, sometimes shows, especially now with so many budget saving measures, they rush them through and there's like two days to shoot. And you really don't allow then for a transformation to happen. So because we shot this over a week and these women came to New York,

alone, They really just had this sole experience and a lot of them don't really get that, especially, you know, moms and things that are, you know, putting their families first and all that. Or young women that just never traveled to New York and never saw themselves being able to be sort of the main character in their life or on a show for an episode. And to see that transformation in real life was

unbelievable. I cried almost every time, especially after the hair and makeup. I mean, that's when they really started to see it for the first time. And for most of them, you could just see a total change on the face. to see women who feel that they don't deserve things or they don't feel like they should hold space or anything.

have the moment of transformation and be like, my gosh, I look like this and this is amazing. I'm telling you, I cried almost every time and it was so genuine.

Madelyn (34:28)
Yeah. up, I could only, there was only a few channels we could watch. We had a lot blocked on our television. TLC and Animal Planet were like the two channels that I could watch. And so me and What not to wear were like this. Did you guys have

Like what was the wardrobe? Did you have a set wardrobe budget per episode or how did you work within that when it came to like the shopping and the makeovers?

Maggie (34:54)
It got increasingly hard, I will say that, as seasons went on, because inflation, know, it's not, $5,000 is not the same in 2004 as it is in 2009, you know? so they got a $5,000 towards their wardrobe. Basically, if you accept you want to be on the show to have a makeover, you get this $5,000 gift card.

Madelyn (34:57)
Mm.

Maggie (35:19)
But that $5,000 also includes tailoring, which is essential to what they're doing. Obviously Stacey and Clinton are dictating everything wardrobe-wise, but the stylists pull a lot of the clothes based on what Stacey and Clinton want them to wear or what the idea is that they're sort of going for. And then the stylists pull a of the clothes.

Madelyn (35:25)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (35:41)
they sort of, then Stacey and Clinton will sit off camera they sit there for hours and try on clothes with the contributors, with the women and the stylists. And then they choose from there which ones they're gonna get tailored and all that. So it's really, I mean, the stylists are amazing, but it really is Stacey and Clinton,

Madelyn (35:52)
Wow.

Maggie (36:01)
picking these things out. And I'm really excited, honestly, that the show is coming back because I think their mindset has changed and everybody's mindset has changed towards what you wear. are no, we used to call them the rules and I think that they would never ever call them the rules again because I think it's like just wear whatever you want and be happy. And so I imagine this new version is more like that and just sort of.

Madelyn (36:17)
Yep.

Maggie (36:29)
how you can do that the best way possible. You know, because I think sometimes there were times where I wish we had infused a little more of the, you know, for more of outlandish contributors that came on, I wish we had infused just like a tiny bit more of what they were at their core. You know, sometimes, and I think everybody would say this, sometimes it did get a little bit muted. It was also like to do with the styles of the time too.

Madelyn (36:47)
Mm.

Maggie (36:56)
you know, all that, but there are so many things that I still like that people should still always think about, which is it doesn't have to match, it just has to go, which is still a thing that a mantra that I feel like everybody should use and mixed metallics. You can always mix metallics. And I've taken those two things above and beyond.

Madelyn (36:58)
Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

was reading sort of the presser on this new reboot and you're exactly right. It's really focused on like, let's read, let's ensure we retain the essence of this person's personal style, why it is the way it is. Let's not be so staunchy about rules It's also comes from within. comes from that confidence in how you carry yourself. And I think that's like,

Maggie (37:22)
Mmm.

Madelyn (37:37)
where that true transformation sort of lies. It's like, yes, what not to wear is a great title and like it, you know, it's great to have like a little sass in there, but really I'm with you. Like I would cry at the end of every episode because you could really see what that just intentional time, you know, to kind of show up as your best self.

Maggie (37:59)
that they retain their sass in whatever way fits the reboot because they are like that. I mean, it's like not even, I mean, they're so witty and smart and just like, I I love them. And I got to do another show with Clinton when I was at HG that I adored. And so they're both amazing people.

Madelyn (38:03)
Yes.

Yep.

I'm so glad you mentioned HG. Cause like we said at the beginning, that's how we met. and you, mean, gosh, you, you were directing development for HGTV. How, how long were you there? You were there for eight, eight years, nine years. So, I mean, some of the big, I mean, you've done so many big things,

Maggie (38:25)
Yes?

Line almost nine years. Almost nine. Almost.

Madelyn (38:39)
It's Barbie Dreamhouse specifically blows my mind because when Barbie came out, the phenomenon was insane. if I'm not mistaken, this was the first kind of collaboration between the legacy sort of Scripps Discovery brand and Warner Brothers Mattel. And mean, and you're working with these sets. I remember them talking about how much paint was used. So

you know, this was a big swing. This was a huge show. I would just kind of love to know how it came to life. know, and what it was like to kind of work with that IP and work within it and kind of how to take big swings when, when you're working, you know, like now we're seeing Harry Potter baking challenge or wizards of baking.

But this was really the first collaboration between those two legacy brands and it was so big in scale. So it just loved to know kind of how it came about and really how you managed it.

Maggie (39:36)
Well, I think Barbie Dreamhouse Challenge is probably my favorite thing that I did at HGTV. So it came about because I love Barbie. I love Barbie forever. I knew the movie was going to be big because I just

you started hearing about it early on. And when people like Greta Gerwig are on board to direct and you hear Ryan Gosling playing it, Ken, you're just like, okay, this is really a lot bigger than I think people realize. So as soon as I had read that this movie was coming down, obviously I knew it was gonna be huge.

and I love Barbie so much, I reached out to a friend of mine, Brent Burnett, who had done, at his production company at the time, had done a collaboration with Mattel. So I knew that he had done that and he was working at Mission Control Media and I wanted to really be the one to do anything Barbie. I was like, I'm so ready. And we had just become, as you said, Warner Brothers Discovery.

So I'm like, this is perfect. We can do a collaboration within the family. So I reached out to him. He talked to the production company. They reached out to Mattel initially just to see if they'd be on board. We had some initial talks. And so we knew that there was something.

but I knew like this pitch had to be amazing to get it over the line because traditionally HGTV wasn't doing anything like this. It was a bit fantastical. there was a lot of trepidation of like, is anyone gonna care about Barbie?

Madelyn (41:06)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (41:12)
you know, is anyone on HGTV in the audience going to care about Barbie? And I was just like, absolutely. So I did a presentation that like just really captured the nostalgia of Barbie and what you would feel. So this was obviously when we're still working from home. So everybody's on zoom. So this was during a green light meeting and there were.

I don't know, like 60 or 80 people on this call from all the different departments. And I was like, okay, here I go. And so I started the pitch by playing an old Barbie commercial from the 60s. And instantly, I think people were tickled because it was, again, super nostalgic. And I sort of walked through the decades of Barbies Dreamhouse and also...

things you might not have known about Barbie. She had a job before most women could work. she was working before, she went to the moon before a man went to the moon, she was a homeowner and most women couldn't be homeowners until the late 70s. So it was, to me,

actually things like that were really empowering about Barbie, especially in regard to home ownership. Plus, the decades can speak to so many people. mean, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, everybody has a time. Why 2K? Everyone has a time period that they connected to Barbie. so revisiting that, I was just

So thrilled. mean, I would spend hours at night just pulling images and pulling old commercials. And I was so into it. And so luckily we were able to make it happen and Mattel was on board and everybody was on board. It took a while to get our budget approved. and it was a real process. I, I thank goodness I was able to partner up with my colleague, Bob Kirsch, because Bob is like the king of overseeing competition.

Madelyn (42:59)
Woof.

Maggie (43:10)
huge scale competition shows. And then me with my top model experience, but also my love of Barbie and knowing HG, we were able to put it together and Mission Control was amazing. They went above and beyond securing the house. And then once everything got into place and we could focus on the creative, that's when it...

I mean, you know they say work, do something you love and never feels like work. That was that period for me, 100%. The fact that I got to sit in and reflect and oversee conversations about Barbie's dream house and how we were gonna interpret it and all these things. mean, just, it was an absolute dream and everybody at Mattel was amazing and they gave so much to us and we had this

Madelyn (43:51)
Dreamy.

Maggie (44:02)
to me is like a really good example of something to make sure that you are including in all of your shows is we had the core team on board that was just as excited and into it as we were. And we had a director that was so fantastic, Anna Moore. And she like went above and beyond our wildest dreams. So it's just like,

we would be excited and then they built on our excitement and then Anna would come up with these incredible ideas to like have the, you know, have the contestants be Barbies and sit them in the interview chair or like, you know, have our host Ashley Graham, who was also wonderful, you know, flying in on a Barbie helicopter just these really extra creative touches that I think just made the show much more.

amazing than I think anyone was expecting. And I'm so grateful that at the end of the day it matched the level that Barbie the movie had gotten to as far as commitment. in tune, we paved the way for HGTV and Warner Brothers working together, marketing and all those departments with the movies.

And those people are absolutely amazing. Shout out to all those Warner Brothers, amazing, amazing people. It was obviously tons of hard work, but you showed up to that set and I am telling you,

Everybody on the crew was wearing pink, some level of And it just, it melted my heart. I've never, ever experienced that. Everybody was.

just committed to making this the best. And that is when you really do get the best product. And it starts with keeping that excitement, keeping the spark of creativity going, not settling for something that would work, but is it gonna be enough? You really have to...

Madelyn (45:45)
Mm.

Maggie (45:59)
not settle in development or when you're creating a show. Because anytime I have settled, you can tell. And I don't feel good about it. But when you are pushing yourself and your team to create, it's like you can get there and then you can't believe what everyone can achieve. Honestly, it was so inspiring.

Madelyn (46:01)
Mm.

Right, no, it's,

it is a, I think about.

you know, whatever deadline article you read that was like, this project, the foresight you had to have to bring this to your team again, years before we knew of the Barbie phenomenon. It's easy to look at it now and be like, well, of course they did that, but there was no guarantee it was going to kind of converge in this way. how it aligned with the, with the movie premiere. mean, like all the bits and pieces that I'm thinking about.

the art direction, mean, it just is incredible. And I love how much you talked about in the pitch what you did, know, so much of what we do is storytelling you like your passion and your ability to not just go, here's my deck. It's like, no, you're tapping into that nostalgia. You're tapping into their feelings.

You're going decade to decade to go, I'm going to find a relatable point for every single person in this room because this is a project I care about. I think that's true for so many projects. then you tap into your own passion for it and it's contagious.

Maggie (47:28)
That's true. I do think passion is contagious. Not always. I mean, when you're in development, you know this. 90 % or 95 % of what you pitch is never gonna go through. that never sees the light of day. And you could even go down a road with it and it still is never gonna see anything. Or you can make a pilot and that's where it ends. There's so much that goes into development that people don't...

Madelyn (47:42)
never sees the light of day.

Maggie (47:57)
realize and I think like the biggest percentage for me always has been passion but I think you're right in the sense that when you're pitching you have to get you have to do a story you have to incorporate storytelling you like think about like John Hamm and Mad Men or something you know like

these incredible people that you've seen evidence of like how they were pitch men in the advertising world. Like I think about that. You have to put on a show, you have to get people engaged or else nobody, why should they care?

Madelyn (48:31)
Totally.

Maggie (48:35)
you have to give us the world, paint the picture, let us in, let us be able to see it. Because we're visual people. When we go into a pitch room, all anyone's, can I see this? And if it's too convoluted, and if you're reading off a piece of paper,

and you're just sort of like droning on, I guarantee you most of the room is already zoned out. You can see it, like you can see people starting to do on their phones and then, kiss it out.

Madelyn (49:00)
Totally.

Right. Well, and development, it's such a long process. you're in legal for months, then you're in development, and you have to not only excitement in the room or in the Zoom, but you have to sustain it.

And you have to ensure that that can sustain excitement and interest for months while you go through all the, you know, the, just the paperwork, honestly, right? Like that's what I think about is if I can't stay excited about it for months while I'm developing it, how can I expect an executive to,

Is there a, you're talking about how, you know, 95 % of things don't see the light of day. Is there a, is there like a white whale show that you have that you're like, I'll never let this go.

Maggie (49:47)
Yes, many, many, many.

So here is my favorite thing that I have, that I pitched for so long. So there is this realtor.

I found her on YouTube one night when I was just sort of, because you know, in development, we're always looking for the next talent. She's a realtor that works with a partner who is her ventriloquist doll named Charlie. So it was Tammy and Charlie. she would like tour this open house and she would

Madelyn (50:03)
constantly.

Maggie (50:17)
asked Charlie what he thought of it. And it was like one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen. I just was like, what can we do with these two? It's just, it's such a unique way of marketing your, and she was successful. It was just a unique way of marketing.

And I was obsessed. So I pitched her and Charlie so many times for different things or putting them in different things. And finally, Lauren said, okay, you can have them for one episode. We did.

this experiment with house hunters that was sort of house hunters, realtors out of the box, And so I finally got to do, we did a house hunters episode with her,

But there was some trepidation about feeling like, this too far? But I still feel that.

Madelyn (50:57)
my god.

Maggie (51:05)
Tammy and Charlie would make a brilliant show somewhere. They are my white whale. Justice for Tammy and Charlie. They were fantastic on House Hunters, the episode we did do. So maybe they'll air that at some point.

Madelyn (51:11)
Justice for Tammy and Charlie.

Maggie (51:22)
I just found it so fascinating. I'm just such a lover of like, fringe and subcultry. I mean, I even say freaks. You know, I would just say like, really interesting people who live different lifestyles and different ways of doing, I love people who do things that people do every day, but.

Madelyn (51:39)
Yeah.

Maggie (51:46)
And then they do a stew at totally different, But I did Queen of Versailles for Discovery Plus and then Max. So we did Queen of Versailles, Reigns again.

I had seen the documentary that came out in the mid 2000s, right? And I remember I went by myself to the movie theater, because I wanted to see it so badly. And I fell in love with Jackie and I was obsessed with her.

Madelyn (51:58)
Same.

Maggie (52:08)
But I just never got her out of my mind. And Lauren had pitched her years prior, and it wasn't something that HG was going to go for. But then once we partnered with Discovery, we started looking for things that were much more out of the box for us,

Madelyn (52:27)
very strict mandates.

Maggie (52:30)
And then we sort of opening things up. And so when we launched Discovery +, we were able to pitch these shows that we weren't able to do on linear. So we pitched Queen of Versailles, Rains again, and we got to make a season. But that was probably my second.

like tied with Barbie as like my dream project because Jackie was amazing. And again, it's a world that is so unrelatable that it's just incredibly fascinating. I mean, she would bring fabric to like a bird sanctuary to match the fabric to the birds she wanted for her gigantic aviary.

But Versailles, I mean, it was just the lore of it. just, I'm so obsessed. And now it's gonna be on Broadway. Stephen Schwartz, writer of all the music for Wicked, is writing the music for her Broadway show starring Kristin Chenoweth. It's coming to Broadway, I think. No!

Madelyn (53:19)
Yes.

You're lying. I did not know that, Maggie. That's

incredible.

You're just a treasure trove of like information.

Is there like kind of...

I know there's not a secret sauce necessarily, but is there something you would tell someone like, go ahead and learn this now so that you can ride these crazy waves.

Maggie (53:47)
Yeah.

I mean, I don't think it's anything revolutionary, but I would say resilience and passion for sure. I mean, when I first started, mean, my very first job in this world was I was Mary- Ellis Bunim and John Murray's assistant. So you know, Bunim Murray, legends, absolute legends. So, and this was like 1999.

Madelyn (54:10)
Yes.

Maggie (54:20)
2000 era. this was when the real world and road rules were really the biggest reality shows out there. think Survivor hadn't even premiered yet. So to be able to be their assistant at that time was again another trial by fire of I was like too young to even realize what like how scary it was. So I just sort of did it, know.

And there were like ups and downs that like there are some things that I look back on and I super cringe like how I handled some situations but again, I have to give myself grace. I was like 23 or something but but I I would never change that experience for a minute because there's just tons and tons that's where met Anthony Dominici, but there are so many major players that came out

Madelyn (55:00)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (55:16)
beyond Mary Ellis and John. like during that time, like Julie Pizzi, who's running Beauty Marie now, was a producer on Road Rules at the time. You have Clay Newbill, who did The Mole and Shark Tank. He was also doing Real World at the time, Anthony Dominici, as I mentioned, who obviously now his biggest show has been Lego Masters, but obviously did all the A NTMs, but he was a director on Real World. So.

You had all these incredible people that just then spread out to sort of like, it was at a time where it was like, you can do this reality TV thing, this unscripted thing. Great, come here and do it with me. it just bred this new, mean, was MTV at the time too was still so cool. And Drew Tappon who runs OWN was like a director of development then. I mean, at MTV, that's where I met him. So.

Madelyn (55:54)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (56:13)
All of these incredible people came out of that era and I don't think would have changed that for the world.

I'm no worse for the wear because of it. And so I think people need to remember that when you're younger, it's harder to have that kind of resilience to know like those things don't matter. You just have to keep going. And it's hard. Like we put our...

our our souls, our everything into these projects. And when they don't go through or they don't work out, it's so disappointing. And it's so disappointing for production companies that you've worked with and they've put their own money and time into just getting a pitch ready and then doesn't go through, you feel it. And also there's so many things that being on the network side, you realize there's a lot of

Madelyn (56:47)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (56:57)
things that have really no rhyme or reason to why they go through? Exactly. Exactly. So much is timing. And you may not know that maybe the head of the company has pitched us their friend that's doing the similar thing or whatever. There may be some other things going on or a celebrity that

Madelyn (57:00)
Yeah, nothing to do with maybe the concept or it's it's like timing and budget and slate.

Yeah.

Totally.

Maggie (57:23)
you know, they're trying to prop up is pitching us a show and that is in a similar vein. So we're going to go with that. You know, that doesn't happen often, but you're, there may be a show already in development in a similar way and ours is not different enough.

being on the network side really opened my eyes up to, after being on the production side for so long, being like, we gave them everything they asked for, like why didn't this go through? And it's like, yes, we did give us everything we asked for, but you know what? It's the timing, or as you said, like this is gonna be too expensive on the show and the budget's already spent. So there's so much that you don't know on the network side that's happening that really like,

Madelyn (57:46)
Right? Yes.

Totally.

Maggie (58:06)
is probably not anything your fault or you're doing.

Always look for those ways in that feel fresh but are relevant, you know? And I think that is key. again, remember, development executives get hurt here a lot of pitches. And you've heard the term mop, right?

Madelyn (58:15)
Mm-hmm.

yeah, I learned that early on because I pitched a few mops early on. You know, it's that whole like, why doesn't this exist already? This is a perfect idea. There's a reason, you know, because it's been pitched a million times.

Maggie (58:32)
I'm giving you a bonus.

can I say one more thing about the advice thing? Okay. Okay. So I would also say that, I would say, if you're, you know, a smaller production company or you're a one man band and you're just starting out, you know, it's, it's obviously much tougher to get a project through at a big network.

Madelyn (58:42)
Yes. yes, please.

Maggie (59:02)
So I'd always encourage people to partner up with production companies that are trustworthy and I would always be able to, you know.

connect them with production companies that I know would be the right fit or whatever. if you are a one man band or a very small production company, look for talent. If you sign talent that is just undeniable and we want them and they're amazing, that's your golden ticket because they're signed to you, so we can't take that away.

Madelyn (59:35)
Mm.

Maggie (59:41)
You know, we'll make it work. So if we want this town, we want the show, we'll partner you up or you'll partner up with somebody. but talent to me is something that it's like, when you find it, it's lightning in a bottle. you have so much at your fingertips. You have social media.

Madelyn (59:59)
It's everywhere, right?

Maggie (1:00:02)
You have YouTube, just like search for those Tammy and Charlie. know, search for the people they're out there

Madelyn (1:00:08)
Right.

Maggie (1:00:10)
Yeah, there is a good chance that those people have been signed to a production company. They've been pitched to us. But you know what? The Property Brothers were pitched three times, I think, before they came on HG.

Madelyn (1:00:21)
Yes!

Maggie (1:00:24)
So again, I think talent is so key to being a successful developer and really just keep digging. Like, and also people had been pitched to us that we

said no to two years ago that actually we decided to say yes to because the timing was better. You know, we actually are looking for somebody in this area or whatever and it just would, it worked out better. So just because it happened once doesn't mean it can't happen again.

Madelyn (1:00:55)
I think there is trepidation a lot of the times with producers to follow up on ideas. It's like, if there's been a rejection or something, you're kind of like, okay, whatever. But, you do, you definitely have to have a feel for it. But I think Dave Noll is someone who I constantly is just like, be polite and persistent, follow up. Mandates are changing. What people are looking for are changing. The slate's constantly moving in and out and they're...

you know, it can always be room for you. And I think that that's important too, is to stay resilient, like you said, continue to follow up. there's just so much world out there.

I can't imagine the thousands of pitches that you've seen over the years.

Maggie (1:01:38)
Yes, and the thing is, again, if you're at a network for a while, you can tell pretty quickly if something's not gonna fly, and you hopefully get the production company a quick answer, or you say, is why this isn't working, But you just gave yourself the best piece of advice, which is, so often, the big picture.

Madelyn (1:01:46)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (1:01:57)
gets forgotten when you get bogged down in the details. Yes, be detail-oriented. I can't tell you how many pitches I would get with spelling errors, words missing. And it's really frustrating because you're just telling me that you don't care. But I would even not care about that if the big picture was so impressive. I am a big picture person. Some people are much better at details. I am all about the big picture.

Madelyn (1:02:10)
Ugh.

Right?

Maggie (1:02:25)
I love to see shows sort of reinvent the genre a little bit when you don't think it could be like the Traitors or something like that. Right? When you think it's familiar, there are parts you've seen, but there are parts you haven't. And everybody is always like, everything's been done, but everything has not been done. You cannot...

Madelyn (1:02:47)
No way.

Maggie (1:02:48)
You cannot live your life that way because

Madelyn (1:02:51)
You can't tell

me in 20 years that everything has been done. I refuse to believe it.

Maggie (1:02:55)
And it's constantly evolving. And what if you're the one who evolves it to the next place it goes? You know what I mean? Like, think about how many times there were turns in what we were watching. Like, as I said, real world, world rules sort of set the stage. Then you get into Survivor, which totally changed the game. Now you're on an island. It's like man versus man, man versus the elements. Like, this legendary game.

Madelyn (1:03:18)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (1:03:25)
Amazing race, then you changed it now it's this world game. Then you had the era of the swap shows, know, wife swap, trading spouses, those were huge. I was, I know, trading spaces. I did one for Style Network called Split Ends, which was hairdressers trading spots, which was such a fun show. did four seasons. I loved that show. RIP Style Network, but you know, I think like,

Madelyn (1:03:35)
Yes. Trading spaces. Yes.

Yeah

Maggie (1:03:54)
But those then changed the game. And so, yes, things come and go, but all those things made people go, there's something new here in a world where you didn't think there could be anything new, because everything rips off everything else. that's, yes. But at the end of the day, don't forget, it's entertainment. People still need to be entertained in some way.

Madelyn (1:04:05)
Exactly.

Totally.

Maggie (1:04:19)
And look, I think everybody realizes that cable is dying at a much more rapid rate than ever before. But there's still a lot of money that gets made in cable because advertisers are still connected to that model. And we're at this really tough in-between stage between cable and streaming, even though we have both.

and clearly streaming is winning. That's no young people have cable. So how are you also tapping into that and sort of keeping it relevant without alien. That's something I think we struggled a lot with that HG is how do you keep things fresh and relevant without alienating the core audience that we're in here.

Madelyn (1:05:07)
your linear audience,

Maggie (1:05:10)
But for the legacy brands, it's a real in-between stage. And I'm curious to see how it pans out.

Madelyn (1:05:16)
I remember you telling me, actually, this reminds me when I was in your office at HG, I'm a really data-driven person. And I remember you telling me how closely you would watch the, the minutes of the show and look for when the eyeballs would drop off and sort of ensure.

that you were formulating the show to try to prevent that. that always stuck with me because it was just such a smart way to work and to pace something.

I love what I do so much. I love this world. And I am just so happy that you said, I was so nervous to come talk to you, Maggie. Literally I was like, I'm bothering her. And you welcomed me with open arms and you just totally.

Maggie (1:05:59)
super.

Madelyn (1:06:03)
Like I said, planted that seed and I'm just, it's so amazing to come full circle and chat with you and just, you are just such a treasure trove of information and knowledge and experience. I'm so grateful that you shared today.

Maggie (1:06:17)
my God, anytime.

Bradley Carpenter (1:06:19)
I love a full circle moment. I don't know if you're listening right now and you're wanting to get into something new or pivot or I don't know, just do something that's completely out of your wheelhouse. Just do it. I first talks to her like eight years ago and was in a completely different department in a complete, like not even in production whatsoever. And that seed was planted. And now here I am years later.

creating shows, it takes work, it takes a long time, but it does happen. So if you needed to hear that today, I hope it met your ears and your heart and your mind and you go for it, whatever it may be. Thank you so much for listening. Again, every subscription, every like, follow, share, rating, review, it all counts, it all helps. So thanks for being here. I hope you guys have a great rest of your weekend. I hope you spend it.

watching all the reality television, all of it, every little bit of it. And I will see you guys in a week with a guest that I'm really, really excited about. And I'll be able to announce on our Instagram at Unscripted Files Pod. Follow me there if you are curious about a show, if you want to hear from a certain person or hear about a certain process, send me a message and I'll do my best to get them on. So, appreciate you guys. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on the Unscripted Files.

Madelyn Cunningham (1:07:41)
The Unscripted Files is brought to you by Good Gravity Entertainment. Thank you to producer Bonnie Adams, Original Music by composer William Wright, Artwork by Lisa Schweikart, and Photography by Reid Schick.