Simone Maloz: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Delta Dispatches. I'm Simone Maloz. We're discussing Louisiana's coast. Its people, wildlife and jobs. And why we're restoring it matters. Welcome back. Welcome back, welcome back. We're returning after a. Prolong sabbatical, and we're looking forward to reconnecting with our former guest and new friends to discuss our favorite topic, why restoring coastal Louisiana matters.
You can find our podcast episodes, old ones and new ones by visiting delta dispatches.org, and be sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple. Google, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcast, we are going all the way back to the beginning and we're gonna have one of our, if not the very first guest on the show for today to talk about where we've been and where we're going. So we definitely have a lot to talk about, right, Alisha?
Alisha: Yeah, happy to be here. Happy to be back.
Simone Maloz: It feels like some things have never changed. Huh? So Alisha is the senior manager for science policy. At the National Wildlife [00:01:30] Federation's Golf Program, and she also has the, being the distinct, she has the distinction of being the first guest on Delta Dispatches when Jacques and I launched the program back in 20, whatever that was, a couple years ago. So, welcome back again, Alisha. Let's talk a little bit, let's talk about the basics. Why, why do we spend so much time and effort and money talking about Louisiana, restoring Louisiana's coast?
Alisha: Yeah. Louisiana's coast is really important. It's really important habitat for fish and wildlife that not only feed and live in Louisiana, but also support what's called the Fertile Fisheries Crescent in the Northern Gulf of Mexico. So not just Louisiana, but the Gulf of Mexico. The habitat's also really important to protecting our coastal communities from storm surge, giving us that kind of natural barrier to push back against those destructive storms that unfortunately we have to face here in the Gulf.
Simone Maloz: Yeah, so Alisha, we, have this milestone year here in Louisiana and we, we have the 20th anniversary of Katrina 20th anniversary of Rita. Of course, we had 15 years since the Deepwater horizon oil spill. So. Alisha, let's talk about some of the success of the Coastal program and maybe some of the kind of basic foundational things that we did after 2005 that really changed the direction that Louisiana was heading in.
Alisha: Yeah, so [00:03:00] Louisiana has been doing coastal restoration and protection projects for a really, really long time, but the 2005 hurricane season was really a wake up call that we could no longer do these random acts of restoration or protection that we had to think about how restoration and protection actually work together to create a more sustainable, more resilient, Louisiana.
And out of that kind of idea and thought the coastal master plan process was born. So we've been thinking about coastal restoration for a long time. We've been doing it to some degree, but this was really the first time that we used science used modeling, used a science-based process to actually figure out what's the coastal restoration projects that we need to put on the ground that can not only do good, but work together to create a more resilient coastal Louisiana.
And here we are, we're 20 years later, we had been updating the that plan every five years. We had 2007, 2012, 2017. Now we're doing it every six years. So 2023. And we're already working on that 2029 plan because the fact of the matter is conditions change, sea level rise, projections change, storm events change how our coasts look.
So we can't just have a static plan, we have to have a living plan that we continuously think about, update and work on. Like what does that look like? And it's been really successful for us to have this blueprint. We have been. Agile and ready. Whenever there has been funding that has come available, that we know where that money [00:04:30] should go.
We know the projects that we need to invest in and that has put Louisiana at an advantage not only in restoring our coast, but being competitive for any money that is available. And it's really been one of the most successful things Louisiana has really done. We are now sort of a model for other places.
They're looking towards coastal Louisiana, looking within, and they're doing their own coastal resilience planning to be ready for projects that come up for other states, places like Texas, New York, Virginia, and now even Florida, starting in the Tampa Bay region. They're looking at doing a coastal resilience plan.
Simone Maloz: So Alisha, that's so well said. I mean, even thinking about committing to this dedicated planning cycle has allowed us to think about both short-term needs and long-term needs. It's allowed us to keep up with technology and modeling improvements, but also like really assess what's. happening on the ground.
And so, to me, when we talk about the coastal master plan and we took, we take that, that look back, those are the things that just are foundational to the coastal program. Success is this, balance of restoration protection. That was something that we certainly realized. After the devastating hurricanes, but including the oil spill is that you need to protect the protection. You can't just have levies, you can't just have restoration, you know, so that has to balance, but also very much that planning cycle. You can't just do these [00:06:00] short term fixes. Um, 'cause then. Here we are 20 years later. They say when you have kids that, uh, the days are long, but the years are short and it feels like that, it feels like 20 years, 10 years can, can almost sometimes happen in the blink of an eye.
And so we do have to think about those long-term planning needs as well. It's interesting say that from a perspective that other places. Have looked to the Coastal Master Plan as a model. It's a place where Louisiana should be very proud that we're leading.
Alisha: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Simone Maloz: Alisha, when you think about on the 20 years, we certainly wanna talk about challenges. We don't wanna shy away from those, but what do you really think of as some of the Hallmark successes of the coastal program? When you think about those 20 years, is there one or two things that really stands out to you?
Alisha: Yeah, I think we have made a lot of good investments in restoration projects that have been put on the ground. A couple that come to mind for me are the lake born Marsh creation project that it, it's still currently in construction, but once it's done, it's gonna be the largest marsh creation project we've ever done.
It's over 2000 acres, of restored, and built wetlands, which I think is really exciting. We are currently constructing the Maurepas Freshwater Diversion. I think that is a real, a real step in the right direction to help restore the health and vitality to a 45,000 acre, swath of swamp, which is really important for protecting some of those communities that are inland, [00:07:30] going all the way to Baton Rouge.
And then I think also one of the most exciting little pet things that, for me anyway, that have moved forward in recent months is the Chandeleur Islands restoration plan. They are looking to restore Chandeleur Islands using some of that oil, spill money. And this is a place that does provide protection for a lot of the communities in Southeast Louisiana.
That barrier island is that first speed bump that, storm surge can hit, but it's also this like amazing habitat for sea turtles for birds for submerged aquatic vegetation. These marine sea grasses that don't occur anywhere else in Louisiana, but behind these, these islands. And so it's really exciting to see that project move forward and, and hopefully go towards construction in the next few years.
Simone Maloz: glad you brought up the last pet project of yours. 'cause I think it's many people's pet projects. It's just so interesting. It checks, so many boxes because of sea grasses, because of birds, because of turtles. But to hear fishermen in Mississippi talk about their importance and of course, them being Louisiana Islands and it's just really interesting and, so positive to see kind of folks rally around, that project and to be able to finally put some of the pieces together for meaningful restoration too.
Alisha: Yeah, and it's not an easy project. It's a project that's gonna take a lot of money and a lot of work, but it is like it is a project that's worth it. It's worth making that investment because a lot of people are rallying behind that. And I think the Mississippi fishermen in particular, it's, [00:09:00] they love that they go out there all the time. Like it's a really important area for them as well.
Simone Maloz: So you bring up another interesting point too, Alisha, is that like, you know, the chandeliers can be, I mean, one might call 'em remote, right? It's not easy to get to, it's not an easy fix.
So this kind of goes into your everyday work, like when. Talk about science communication, where you're talking about projects that maybe not everybody can see. , I guess what's one thing you wish more people understood about coastal science or about science communications? Just pulling from your everyday work. Uh.
Alisha: Uh, it's a big, that's a big question. I think what I would want people to understand is that we've learned a lot over the years and we know a lot about our coast and we continue to make the investments in like our coastal reference monitoring system so that we understand how things are changing, where current issues are in specific places in the coast.
I think at the end of the day, that helps us understand what's happening along the coast, but also helps us understand what it is we need to do to help restore this place. We unfortunately can spend a lot of money doing these random acts of restoration and have very little to show for it in 20 years.
And so it's really like the science driving this process is really critical to creating a cohesive plan for restoration and [00:10:30] how we actually get things to work together so that we have something to show for so that our money actually went somewhere at the end of the day. I think that's, the long game of restoration, but it's something we constantly have to think about.
What projects do we actually need to put forward that will work together to create the better future for Louisiana?
Simone Maloz: Yeah. And for me it's just so complex. And the solutions can be really complex, but then sometimes, Alisha, I think at the end of the day, it's really simple, right? What kind of future do we want to have in coastal Louisiana, and how do we make the best uses of the resources that we have, knowing that they're scarce and that includes time and that includes money, and that certainly includes natural resources. We just don't have infinite, natural resources as well.
So I'm, I am really grateful for the folks just like you that help us talk about the complex science that we have here. How do you, myth bust things what somebody really believes is true, but the science is saying something different. How do you weave those two things together as a science communicator?
Alisha: You know, it can be a challenge 'cause there are a lot of myths that get out there and that people perpetuate because they only un they understand maybe some of the science, but they don't understand the full story. And I think it's really kind of getting down and like talking to people and understanding, you know, what they think is happening in the system and then talking through like what the science is actually showing.
So [00:12:00] one of the things I hear a lot is that, freshwater will kill saltwater marshes. And that's sort of born out of a true thing, which is salt water will kill freshwater marshes.
But the opposite isn't true. Saltwater marshes, the plants that survive there, it's because they're really resilient. That's why they survive there. They're totally fine in fresh water. They can actually grow just fine in fresh water. Typically once fresh water is a consistent thing, they'll be outcompeted by other vegetation, but the marsh itself doesn't die off and disappear.
Like what we see when salt water moves into an area. So like sometimes there's like a kernel of truth to it, but there's a misunderstanding then of the processes. And I think, it is a really important thing to talk about what people think is happening and talking through these and helping people understand where the truth really lies and sometimes.
There's questions in science that we don't have good answers for at this time, and it is worth continuing to pursue those questions as study to better understand, to help inform restoration, to help inform management of the system.
Simone Maloz: it very much feels like a two-way street. Right. You do have to listen to get a better understand maybe where they're getting that from or, I know sometimes, we wanna say that Louisiana is really unique, but sometimes that is true, right?
We always get why can't you build islands like Dubai, right? Well, that's not exactly how we're made here in Louisiana. So, I do think that's, a really important thing that I think our coastal community has evolved and has grown in certainly is the science communication and it being a two-way street. [00:13:30] So I can't let you get away without shying away from some of the difficult talk topics.
So, we, we understand, that the state is not moving forward with the Mid-Barataria sediment diversion. And so I guess I'll frame the question this way, Alisha. Can you tell us a little bit about the importance of, river reconnections and why there are so many people in the science community that even before coastal master plans were a thing, put so much value and weight into having those river reconnections into those basins.
Alisha: Yeah. So the Mississippi River is what built most of South Louisiana. That sediment coming from that gigantic drainage basin all the way up into Canada, bringing that down to, to Louisiana, into the Gulf, that is what built our coastal wetlands. And, we decided, we built levees, along the river for navigation and flood protection for good reasons, like it is necessary, and it was an important thing to build these levees.
But in doing so, we cut off the sediment to these coastal wetlands, and in the absence of the sediment, a choice was made. And the choice was the sacrifice of these coastal wetlands, at least in the short term. So by cutting that off, those wetlands, they can't respond to sea level rise quite as well.
They're disappearing at an alarming rate. Sediment is the key ingredient to restoring our coast. Now we have, and we can, we [00:15:00] have done marsh creation projects, dredging sediment from the river and building new wetlands that way. However, that only gets at a fraction of the segment that the river carries.
And as you said before, we have limited. Resources, and that includes sediment. And so putting that river to work, getting that sediment, using the power of the river to deliver sediment to those basins has been been recognized as a key component for coastal restoration in Louisiana for decades now. It is something that's been talked about, thought about since at least the 1980s, if not before.
It's not just a theoretical thing. We can actually see it in practice. We can see what it looks like to have sediment flow into these coastal wildlands. We can look at the wax Lake Delta. We can look at the lower Mississippi River in places like Pivach Cut and Neptune Pass, and Baptiste Collette where they're actually building land while most of the coast is losing land. And that's 'cause it's connected to the river. It has a steady source of sediment coming into this area. And that's not only important for sustaining, for building new wetlands, but sustaining those existing wetlands. As sea level continues to rise, that sediment is gonna be really important to keeping those coastal wetlands going for the long term.
Simone Maloz: Yeah. And I think that goes kind of full circle back to our conversation about, both planning for the short to term and the long term. And, we can say it again and in future episodes I'm sure we'll talk about the importance of marsh creation. You talked about Lake Bourne and how we continue to build the biggest, and that's important for us, [00:16:30] especially. In the short term, but we also, right now we have a window where we can still think about very much that long-term planning and knowing the lessons that we learned after Katrina and Rita in 2005 about balance. Seeing restoration and protection, protecting that protection. And also not just planning for today, but really planning for tomorrow and the day after.
Knowing this restriction on resources that we have is really, really important. Um, I'll put a pin in that. 'cause we are, hoping to talk about the 2029 Coastal Master Plan. It was a little unbelievable to hear you kind of go through all those iterations of the Coastal Master Plan. And a little hard to believe that 2020 nine's already upon us, but it is, and, they need the communities help thinking through those projects.
And so, we'll talk about that on a future episode. Um. Alisha, you know the drill. We can't let you leave without asking a fun question. And this was, this was so controversial. This is probably one of Jacques Hebert and I's biggest fights if we ever had.
Alisha: Okay.
Simone Maloz: so it of course is a question, a classic question for our guests. What is your favorite snowball flavor? Are you gonna tell me that you're a soft serve girl and not a snowball?
Alisha: Not even I, I am, I honestly not a snowball person at all. I like good old fashioned ice cream. I'm a mint chocolate chip [00:18:00] ice cream lover. I don't think I've had a snowball in years.
Simone Maloz: I love it. Alisha. We're gonna do it one day. It's so hot. One day we're, we're gonna take a force family field trip. We're gonna go, we're gonna go have
Alisha: Okay.
Simone Maloz: uh, go have a,
Alisha: Okay.
Simone Maloz: Yes. Um.
Alisha: Now you have to tell me what's your, what's your favorite?
Simone Maloz: Nectar,
Alisha: should I try? Nectar. Okay.
Simone Maloz: Like, I don't even know
Alisha: Yeah.
Simone Maloz: that. And then, because that's not enough.
I love it with condensed milk, like I, and because there's
Alisha: Excellent.
Simone Maloz: there, um, uh, yeah, they, they come up, they have
Alisha: All.
Simone Maloz: unbelievable flavors. The, the kind of, um. Uh, like, uh, if I had to pivot, um, there is a satsuma flavor that is just, it's, it's just so, so good. So I'd probably
Alisha: All right. Good Recommendations.
Simone Maloz: milk on that too. Well, Alisha, thank you. Thank you so much for coming back on the show for making. Easing back into this so easy, I expect our next guest, Steve Cochrane to help me do the same. But thank you, Alisha, for being a great science communicator for helping us come on the show to talk through about the fundamentals that make the coastal program here in Louisiana not just so important, but why we've had success in the past too. So thank you, Alisha. We look forward to having you on maybe a future season at Delta Dispatches. I.
Alisha: All right, anytime. Thank you for having me. [00:19:30] 
Simone Maloz: Welcome back. If you've made it to the second half of this show, congratulations.
It means that we didn't screw up the first half, too bad, or, um, you're a glutton for punishment. Uh, we wanna welcome back Steve Cochran. Steve was one of our other very first guest on Delta Dispatches when we started the show all those years ago, Steve, we're not actually saying the year because we don't, we don't wanna date ourselves.
But, uh, just a reminder, Steve Cochrane is the former director of Restore the Mississippi River Deltas. So Steve had, the position before I did at the coalition. He also has a long history of doing lots of other things, which we'll talk a little bit about today. But Steve is still very active in the coastal world and, and has a lot of opinions and a lot to say on that, which is exactly why we asked him to come on.
So, um, thank you Steve for joining us today. Um, you, you just heard a little bit of the conversation that we had with Dr. Alisha Renfro on the importance of the coast, from an ecological, from a science standpoint. But certainly that's just one perspective. We wanna zoom out a little bit and talk about why coastal land loss in Louisiana is important to the [00:21:00] nation and how we can continue, having that successful coastal program here in Louisiana to be a model, for other folks in the nation.
So welcome back Steve.
Steve: Nice to see you. One of the things that, comes with, semi-retirement is you don't get to see all the people that you used to see every day. And so this is fun for me to be able to do this again. Um, thank you for, having me back as you. As you look at the gray hair here, you can
Simone Maloz: Are you talking about my.
Steve: I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not, you can see, see the contrast between mine and yours and understand a whole lot about us Anyway,
Simone Maloz: same old shit. Different day, I promise.
Steve: I'm good. I'm good. Exactly. Yeah. Right, right. Not really. Not
Simone Maloz: So Steve, we wanna remind everybody, you're a North Shore boy, born and raised in Louisiana.
Steve: Mandeville High School graduate
Simone Maloz: Oh, I was gonna say a skipper. I actually knew that. I knew that. Uh, so you've been an advocate for the coast for a really, really long time. You've had, a chance to work in government here, you've had to work, you had a chance to lead, uh, lake Pontchartrain Basin Foundation, which is now Pontchartrain Conservancy, but you've also. Continued to work nationwide. So what sets Louisiana apart? When you would, do this kind of national work and, you were working in other species, what sets Louisiana's coastal program apart from, other coastal cities or other [00:22:30] places that are facing real resilience challenges?
Steve: Yeah. The, one of the things that you do experience when you work either nationally or globally, is that every place thinks they're special, because in many ways they are, right? Everybody's got their own, their own state, their own people, their own culture, et cetera. Louisiana brings something I think though, to this piece, which is. We do have a couple, like two and a half million people I think, who live in the coastal zone. It's a lot of people. Not the only place in the world that has a lot of people on the coast, but we certainly have our share that, and within that, as I think, even though I'm from here, I do think, it's special and unique, which are the cultures that are here, the South Louisiana culture, the New Orleans culture they're really acknowledged globally, as a unique and special place things that we try to hold onto.
So I think that's a, an important thing not to skip over, just because everybody thinks they're special. Some people are more special. And I do think we've got some uniqueness here that's really quite. Quite good. You know, and then there's the, when you start thinking globally or nationally, you have to think economically. And the thing that, as who follow the history know the thing that, Thomas Jefferson cared the most about when he wanted to do the Louisiana purchase , it was New Orleans, the mouth of the river, the access to the rest of the world. And so the ports that are developed here, really are first or second, in the nation. Incredibly important, not only, to the world's [00:24:00] economy, the world's ability to feed itself, given the amount of agricultural products that go through , the energy in the world in terms of how much we export through this. Through, this coastal area and that, and those ports that are here in south Louisiana are really critical to that.
So when you step back from it, our coast and therefore the coastal program, that helps, do that really protects all of those things that are of tremendous value to us. I would say one other thing. I think there are two other things that are worth mentioning in this context, if I think about it. One is, the unique part of the coastal program that we have here is that we have the opportunity to use this amazing asset of the river. Literally no very, almost no other places in the world actually have that ability to actually rebuild, to build land, to build coastal protection in a way that we do here.
And so that uniqueness is something that. We have long believed we could take advantage of and should take advantage of. And the science truly backs that up as we've looked back through the 40 years of analysis that have gone on around projects. , So that powerful force of the Mississippi River, both the sediment in it and the ability of the river itself to deliver that sentiment. Without diesel, without pipelines, without all the additional things that are necessary, if we use it the right way. And then the last thing that Louisiana has, and this is something that we built , which is the coastal planning process.
How are we gonna [00:25:30] take advantage of the river? How are we gonna protect ourselves knowing that we have significant levels of land loss, knowing that we have increasing levels of sea level rise. How do we take that knowledge? How do we incorporate it into, what we do so that we are. Always making the best decisions on the best, up to date, knowledge, science, engineering, the things that matter. How do we do that? How do we make sure that the public is engaged in that planning process? Who knows what's going on, has a chance to voice their own, not because everybody will agree, but everyone should know. Everyone should have the opportunity to work through that. And so the coastal planning process is designed back in the early parts of this decade. Um, really do that. They really capture the knowledge and they make sure that people are a part of that process. And then all of that together, I think, us to not only put the best projects forward based on the analysis that says this project can build more land, this project can reduce the most risk, those two sort of fundamental things.
And to do so, and this is really critical, I think in the world that we live in today, that, do that protection, do that restoration in ways that can be sustainable. Not just will give us through a few years, but we'll actually continue to provide the kinds of protection and sustainability that really matters in this kind of work.
You can't just do a one-off thing and say, well, it's good for a few years. We'll talk to you later. I mean, you really have to [00:27:00] think about how to do it better than that. And I think Louisiana has, and I'll put this caveat here, up until this last year, really done a great job of doing that. It is really worrisome that's, we seem to be moving away from that and we can talk about that, but we have the assets that nobody else has. We actually started to take advantage of it and half for the last several decades figured out how to do, that's why we've been successful so far, it's why. Other parts of the country call us and say, Hey, will you come, talk to us about how you doing what you're doing, because we need to do that here and we look different. We might have not the same assets, but the process you guys did really seems to be working come help us. So I think that we have a lot.
Simone Maloz: Yeah.
Steve: that
Simone Maloz: No, no. It was.
Steve: we really do. And, uh, and, we should take advantage of that. And, and if we don't, it really is shame on us. It really is. We're missing the opportunity that we have to be able to protect ourselves. We should take
Simone Maloz: I think the conversation earlier with Alisha, she uses a term which she reminded me, and that, we cannot afford random acts of restoration. Right? That's something that we don't have the luxury. Yeah. It's something that we don't have the luxury of here in coastal Louisiana. And I just like you grew up here and, as I've grown up and certainly in the work that I do, it's just.
How, Louisiana, I feel is unique, truly right, is how tied we are to those natural resources that, that Louisiana gives us, right? And [00:28:30] it is a source of so many people's income. It's how we recreate and, live, work, and play in coastal Louisiana. How tied we are to those natural resources.
And how we can use them. You said that so well too. Is that, while we are scarce on some of those natural resources and scarce on time, it is also the greatest solution that we have as well. And we have to be able to think about that moving forward. But it's hard, Steve, right?
It's a balance and that's always something. It's that Louisiana struggles with, is that balance. It's the balance of restoration and protection, the balance of short term, I need a quick fix before the next hurricane season or that long term planning. And so I think it's, just complicated always, even when it comes to natural resources.
I do wanna tackle some of the tough subjects with you. And you just brought it up at the last, at the last piece of what you said is that, we have seen changes in the coastal program over the past couple years. We are in the aftermath of the announcement, that Mid-Barataria, this.
State has decided that Mid-Barataria sediment diversion, is not gonna move forward. What, let's, I guess let's take it from this place, Steve. Let's talk about the kind of science driven coastal master planning process and bring it up from this one project decision. What do you see as the implications of science led restoration in a world [00:30:00] after this Mid-Barataria decision?
Steve: I have been trying to think about that. I think a lot of people are beginning to think about that. How, what does the next master plan look like? What are the projects, what makes it up? Um, you know, trying to be very. Concrete and practical about the thinking, not just, oh, well, you know, just let's, what, what, how do we really do this? I have a hard time coming up with anything that doesn't, use the river.
You used the word balance, and I think balance is a always an important word. It can also be. A word that people use to not do things. Oh, we have to balance this. We have to balance that some things are true and they're not balanced.
And one thing that's not balanced here is that we have this asset of the river, and saying, oh, well, so balancing means use it a little bit. just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't hold up to any scientific assessment of what we need in terms of the scale of what we need. If we make a decision about a project that doesn't take into account the scale of what we face here. That's not balanced. I love the term random acts of restoration. We need this to add up to as much as we possibly can't. And if we're really hard headed in looking at what we face, we know we're still gonna lose some land, even if we do the best that we can do. But we have to do the best.
And there is no best that doesn't use the river. There's just not. So if I think [00:31:30] about what does the master plan look like going forward? If the politics step back a bit, it is absolutely the case that something similar to Mid-Barataria will be in the next plan. Because that's what we have to do. I mean, it's not complicated. Now what does that probably mean? Something a little further up in the system because. Because we've, we're almost signing the death warrant for the lower parts of the system now by refusing to do Mid-Barataria. And every time we do that, time is not on our side here.
We have to look a little further up. Big ballpark guess of what the science is gonna say. The science is gonna say, we need to do what we just decided not to do in some form. We just have to do it further up because we've lost the time and the money. We can talk about that part too.
One of the main benefits of using the river is that it provides sustainability levels to the new other projects. Whether they're dredging projects or land bridge projects or anything else. It continues to provide sediment, not by a pump and not by a pipeline, not something that caused more money, but by the river flowing, which a river's gonna do. As long as the river flows, that sediment can go in the areas that we hope it can go. If we put our mind to it, that helps protect those dredged areas of land instead of them sinking back into the water, which they will do over time. adds what we know from the modeling, literally decades to the life of every project that we're building. We need that time. [00:33:00] So it's not just, Hey, we need a diversion. We need to use the river so that all the other projects that will be a part of any master plan can have their best chance at having their longest life. I don't know how to read the science, how to see the science, how to look at a plan that is. What we decided years ago is that we were gonna be science-based that we were gonna have public engagement. Those two critical elements, that's what we were gonna do. We've stepped away from both of those. In this led us round of, not only, okay, we're not gonna do that thing we decided to do, and we're just gonna make the decision to do it. We're not gonna tell people we're gonna make that decision. We're just gonna make it in closed doors, behind closed doors, we're gonna come up with some other projects that we think we're gonna do.
Also, not going through a process, not even doing the modeling well, is that gonna work or is that not gonna work? How's that? That's just, we gotta do better than that. And we have, and every administration has. Up until this latest round, it's not too late to do better. it's not too late to restore balance, if we wanna use that word, so that we can move back in the right direction.
But that's a big blow that we've just suffered. If we let the science decide what we're gonna do, we'll see another project like that. It's just gonna be higher up in the system, so.
Simone Maloz: I will, never think about the word balance, probably ever the same, because I think what you said is so true. You know, sometimes it's a compromise. But we don't, again, that's another [00:34:30] luxury we can't afford here in coastal Louisiana if we want the future that we said that we want here in coastal Louisiana.
And so I think that rings really true. I mentioned it with Alisha and I'll say it again. We're in the process of another coastal master plan in this, post-Katrina reform that has. Set up a successful coastal program. They have gone into these communities and the state has just evolved and progressed, so much by, going into these communities earlier and earlier and talking to them about the importance of a coastal master plan about, so they can best understand what's in it, what's not in it, and how they can, factor into that.
And so I think that's a really important process, that we have to make sure keeps it. Its integrity moving forward and that science based yet publicly informed part of that moving forward. I just wanna ask you one last question before, before we leave Steve, when you, when you kind of like take that out.
If, when you take it out of Louisiana, it does feel like a lot of people are watching us because, maybe it's an insurance issue. Maybe it's like flood insurance or other insurance. It's other places that are experiencing these really challenging futures. Um, you know, Isha mentioned Tampa Bay, Virginia.
You know, we have a friend who's now working in Maryland leading their coastal department. I guess I wanna talk about that, Steve. Like we, we talk [00:36:00] about, sometimes we focus just in on Louisiana, but things we're doing in Louisiana does really have these much bigger ripple effects, right? Like in, in insurance companies, in reinsurance companies, or in these other cities.
So that's not a very well articulated question, but I'm trying to say that. I guess I feel like the rest of the nation and even the world is watching Louisiana, to plan their futures. And so I feel some pressure because of that , but I think you would agree that other folks are watching us too.
Steve: I think yeah. And a couple of things. I see that from both sides. I think one, I wanna say one other thing about our previous conversation. The great thing about the coastal master plan is it was designed to be able to fix the last mistake. We do it again. We look at everything that we looked at last time and said, is that still right?
Has that been updated? Has that changed? Were we wrong? We actually set up a process to be able to do that. So in a positive way. I think we've just made a mistake, but we've got another planning horizon. We get to look at it again and make sure that we're do it right the next time. Most things don't, aren't set up that way.
This is specifically set up today. Let's keep learning. So I wanna encourage this administration. I'm sure they'll listen to me. I wanna encourage that to really think about how to take advantage of that, not just let it be a problem. In terms of what it, there, there's, there is. The absolute fact that because [00:37:30] Louisiana has been doing such a good job, that people have been looking at what we are doing and looking at how they might be able to learn from it. And so that's a, that's always a great opportunity. It's a great opportunity for the contractors and others who actually do the work here to be able to expand. Certainly Why? The big corporations, the big multinational engineering and planning and construction firms
Simone Maloz: Yeah. Great point.
Steve: because they not only here, but want to be able to go this broadly. And so that's true. It is also true that while we had first mover advantage because our plan was sinking sooner than a lot of places, we're losing that because of sea level rise. What that means is that. The money necessary to do the work that will come from federal government and a lot of it will, well, there's gonna be a lot of competition for that money. when we are doing the things that we said we would do, and we're operating the way we have in the past up until this last year, then we have the credibility to say, if you give us that money, we will make sure what's done with it is right and actually benefits everyone. If we do the other thing, which is to say, well, nevermind we changed our mind.
We're not gonna do that thing we told you we were gonna do. We're not gonna spend the money that we were gonna spend the way we told you we were gonna spend it. Then the eyebrows start going back up again, and I lived in DC long enough to know. That trust in Louisiana were not things that went together very much when [00:39:00] it came to how you're gonna take money and what you're gonna do with it. I remember the headline in the Washington Post after Katrina when we made a big ask about what we needed to help down here, and the headline was Louisiana Looters. That is not a good reputation, and that's the one that we had, and we have pushed back against that here with this work more than anything we've ever done in Louisiana.
It's amazingly impressive what we have done under the master plan to earn the credibility at the funding levels where we're going to need it going forward. I don't think that we have taken that anywhere near as seriously as we need to. Both because of the way the current administration is acting.
It's like it doesn't matter. We don't have to care about what other people think. We better care about what other think, if we're gonna be able to try to use money that comes from someplace else. And the idea that Louisiana can pay for everything, I don't think anybody thinks that's right. We're gonna have to do better and keep our credibility, and we're not doing that right now.
So that's a problem. Those, so that's two sides. One is we've really built a good chance to be able to take advantage of everything we've done. We should not throw it away, and we're in danger of doing that. And the risk is very high that if we do that, we lose the opportunity to ever have the resources that we need to actually do the work we need to do
Simone Maloz: Yeah, that's such a good point about, about, the kind of workforce that we've created and the industry sector here. That we can export that knowledge other places, but [00:40:30] also very well said about competition for federal resources, and how Louisiana can prove that they're a good investment.
Yet, the competition keeps increasing every day there, for those scarce resources because we cannot do it alone. So all very well said. Steve, I wanna end our conversation on a light note, because I know our conversation will continue. Right? We'll, through this, season of Delta Dispatches we want to continue to highlight both the opportunities and challenges to Louisiana's coastal program. We want to make sure that we're looking at both those communities and the culture that make us really unique and remind us why we're doing the work that we're doing. And so I could lob a softball, at you about snowballs. 'cause I know you got Plum Street right around the corner from your house.
But I'm not gonna do that because I want to exploit a mutual friend to see if Jacques Aber listened to the entirety of this episode, if he got to this point in the episode. And I miss my partner so, so much. He's doing amazing work for an amazing foundation. And, I miss him every day.
So what. Well, I guess that's a easy question for you. What do you miss about Jacques, I just want him to feel bad if he's gotten to this point of the show. I want him to, to both miss us and be a little mad at us for even bringing this up.[00:42:00] 
Steve: Well, I'll say, I know he is technologically savvy enough to record the thing and listen to it later, so you may not catch you mind This, I'll say that one of the highlights, honestly, this is true of my career, again, coming back home again, was to work between the names of Simone Millas and Jacque Bear, right?
A Steve Cochrane. How did I ever manage to do that? Right? So that in itself has been great fun, and I've always enjoyed that. And I, as you know. I will take credit for hiring Jacques to work for EDF when I was down here. 'cause oh, I could see it right away. This guy's really good and he's really special. And so, I enjoyed everything working with him just because he was so, so consistently good at what he does. But he has always had a great smile and I'll just take that as a 'cause. I always remember Jacques smile and enjoy that so. I hope when I see you get really, really cold in Minnesota, I hope he gets especially cold just so he'll remember where he ought to
Simone Maloz: Yes. Yeah, fair point. Fair point. Yeah, I'll answer some, you know, luxury of being the host as I can answer the questions or not. Right. There are still jokes in the MRD office about how loudly Jacques used to type. And so that still is either a very soothing noise to people or, or, you know, gets people up, works 'em up to a real nerve, is when Jock was, pounding away on his keyboard furiously, you know, responding to something. But, I also miss, I miss him. I miss him on the show. I, he used to do all the homework always, and I used to just show up instead.
So I do [00:43:30] miss the amount of workload that he used to take off of my plate.
Steve: Jack is definitely the guy that you wanna sit next
Simone Maloz: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Steve: course he
Simone Maloz: Uh, yeah. So, uh, all credit to our producer Ryan, who snuck this question in there just to, to kinda get at our old friend in there. So, thank you Steve, for being such an amazing advocate. Wherever you have been over the years. I probably don't tell you enough how much you mean to me and how much your leadership has meant to me and how you've always been an example of staying true to why you want to protect coastal Louisiana and why that's important, but also thinking about bigger picture things too.
So thank you for. For always being. That for me, very selfishly, thanks for coming back on the show. I don't know what we would've done for a first show if you and Alisha wouldn't have come back. It was nice to kind of call on our old friends.
Steve: somebody younger and smarter, so I, that's what I
Simone Maloz: You talking about me again? No, just kidding.
Steve: exactly.
Simone Maloz: well,
Steve: I'll
Simone Maloz: thank you. Thank you very much, Steve, for coming back on and again.
Steve: for having
Simone Maloz: Yeah, we wanna, we wanna continue this conversation in Delta dispatches and this season. So thanks for hanging in there with us for our first episode. And don't forget to like, rate maybe. Rate only. If you're being nice.
Subscribe and share Delta Dispatches podcast. I will say this, so Jacques used to end the show on a See you later alligator. And a very [00:45:00] good close friend, some would call him, an avid listener of the show was like, you need to start closing it with after a while, crocodile. So we'll try that for today.
So, after a while, crocodile, thanks everybody for joining us.