Dr. Scott Seaman [00:00:06] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of AWSP TV. It's actually TV, or it could be a podcast or it could be a really cool little mini novel you're reading. I'm Scott Seaman, executive director here at AWSP and I'm pleased to have your government relations and advocacy director Roz Thompson joining me today. Roz Thompson [00:00:24] Happy to be here to talk about all things advocacy. So yeah, I'm glad we're doing this. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:00:28] Yeah. So let's jump in, Roz. This is going to be sloppy and messy because like most things, we didn't rehearse this at all. Roz Thompson [00:00:34] No, and it's complicated. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:00:36] So we feel like it's super important to give people an update on our advocacy efforts this year. But before we get to where we are today, what I'd love to do is climb back into history. So you and I've been doing this for a little bit. Sure. And if you were to describe because I know you've captured captured this on paper, if you look back to the last 15 years of education reform, how would you describe some of the changes you've seen in the system? Roz Thompson [00:01:07] So I guess the biggest overarching theme that I see is that there's such an incredible focus on instruction, right? We want our leaders in our buildings to focus on being the lead learner of instruction. And so a lot of the reform efforts that we see that I've collected on documents that really help portray the culmination of lots of different policy maneuvers and things like that speak to obstruction in terms of assessments, graduation requirements, standards, evaluation procedures for teachers and principals. So, so much of it is focused on instruction content that we want to make sure we cover for students and things like that. In conjunction with that, you've got this increase of mental health supports and needs that students have. So we're trying to not only help students navigate being adolescents and teenagers and and little people, but we're trying to also focus on their learning and manage a building. So we've added, you know, titles to the role of principal, essentially. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:02:11] Yeah, I was thinking about the other day, I mean, I was a high school principal 15 years ago and how the job has drastically changed in just those 15 years. And you hit it on the head perfectly as far as the emphasis on being an instructional leader, but yet nothing's come off the plate of all the things that I was doing back then as the manager of really what's kind of daily chaos. Right? And then I also think about all the other things that we've thrown in society that all come through the front doors of a school. Yeah, social media, parental pressures, political risks in our societies and our communities. You know, all of that's coming into the schoolhouse and it's all kind of landed on. Roz Thompson [00:02:53] The lap, the plate of the. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:02:54] Principal, the plate of a. Roz Thompson [00:02:56] Principal. And I don't think I mean, you and I have heard it from our members even the last two or three years dealing with the pandemic. We haven't been in the building during that time. But they tell us, you know, things have changed in the last two or three years. And so we can only relay those stories and try to understand the shoes they're walking in. But even in the last two or three years, changes have happened to our societies and communities and schools. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:03:20] Yeah, well, I was just describing it yesterday or the other day, principaling, post-covid is even different than it was prior to. Roz Thompson [00:03:26] Right, Right. So last ten years and 15 years is one thing, but last two or three years has also compounded changes. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:03:33] So I'm starting my 10th year here at AWSP, and I would say even my work has changed in the last few years because the phone calls are changing, the calls coming into the system here at the association that's designed to support principals, the principalship and each and every student. That's our mission, by the way, has changed. Sure. By the sheer volume of calls coming in of principals in distress, we are seeing more principals put out on admin leave, more principals like accused of things that trigger an investigation and have been leave, more principals put on plan improvements. Just just grief. It just lots of employment related things happening to principals which is making the job tough on top of all those things that you just listed. The scary part for me is we're also seeing fewer and fewer teacher leaders expressing interest in the principalship. Right? Roz Thompson [00:04:34] Right. And in the five years that I've been here, as I've watched you and other associate directors handle those member support calls, when I came five years ago, it was, you know, 50 ish maybe a year. We'd get these calls of people in crisis. And now I you know, the last year it was in the hundreds, hundreds of people calling for those employment situations or crises. Yeah. And they need your support. There we are the association that supports principals. And oftentimes it's you know, we're the neutral ground for people. In our state. They don't feel comfortable talking to people in their district. You know, there aren't there isn't the capacity to aspire to provide that. So here we are as people support supporting 3600 leaders in our schools. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:05:16] So, what this is leading to is this alarming number or trend or percentage of principal turnover. We are seeing fewer principals stay in the building long enough to lead the change we have. It's not uncommon now to be sitting in a room and have a principal say, Yeah, I'm the fifth principal in five years, or even worse. I'm the fifth principal in four years because there's so much change. And what we know about principal ing is leadership takes time. And I know that you're are tuned to to research and what the Walls Foundation has come out with. But what are some nuggets that jump to your mind when you think about what the Walls Foundation. I mean, they've been studying principal leadership for the last 20 years, but they've had two big studies just recently that have highlighted the important role principals play. Roz Thompson [00:06:03] Yeah, the two that I like to cite and think about often is just how long it takes to really change the culture in a positive way and enact systems that affect kids and are good for kids. So that's 3 to 5 to 7 to 10 years, right? Depending on the situation. So it takes time to establish the culture systems learning that impact students. The other I think more recent research with Wallace is that, yes, teachers are incredibly like number one, influence on kids. But now richer research is showing that principals and leading the learning in the building may actually be the number one influence on student learning. And that's been that's the most recent part that I think that was a culmination of some decades of research, but also numerous studies that pointed to that. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:06:50] So when you compare these data points of how long it takes to like shift the culture in a school and build those systems to support the culture and actually shift the narrative learning for kids and to adults. And then you lay that up next to the turnover rate in our state. To me, this is the biggest inequity in the system that we're that we're not talking about. Right. Which is probably why we've landed on a lot of our advocacy efforts and a lot of the conversations we're leading with different agencies and organizations, not just here in Washington, but nationwide, as we really start to press to the fact that our kids deserve the best principal in the world. Roz Thompson [00:07:31] Yep. Every school. Yeah. And our state has pressed into some really important pieces of legislation in the last few years around what students need and equitable instruction. And each and every student and inclusionary practices and all means all. And how do we start pushing on systems to do that if people are fearful or concerned or worried or don't feel supported by the actions and moves that they're making as the leader? Dr. Scott Seaman [00:07:57] Yeah, it's tough to step out and take a risk and change a bad for kids system when you potentially could be run out of the out of the school or district or community for trying to lead those changes. Roz Thompson [00:08:07] Right. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:08:10] So it's not an easy fix? Roz Thompson [00:08:12] No, it is not. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:08:14] And it's not a one size fits all fix. Nope. And you and I have done a lot of thinking on this, and so is our Avis people. Or they've been great thought partners with us. You're so great with these visuals. You've kind of landed on these three lanes of advocacy. So if you were to describe our three lanes of advocacy, because it's not a simple fix, right? It's multi-layered, multifaceted. Why don't you walk us through our three lanes? Roz Thompson [00:08:39] Yeah. So this really came about. It kind of gelled for me last April. And I think it was once we were through the kind of bulk of the pandemic time frame that we met with our board in April and brainstormed and talked about all of the challenges we've just talked about in our system. And I tried to I'm trying to categorize it. And so I started making lists and taking their comments. And it and there are pieces of so the three lanes really focus on the state level policy and what our legislature could, can or can't do, what our agency partners at the State Board of Education or OSPI or Professional Educator Standards Board could do and rule. And then what our district partners can do or can't do with their policies that they're working on. So we tried to take lots of the pieces of of the feedback we're getting from our board and organize them into our three lanes. So what are the levers we might be able to pull at each in each lane that would help do a better job of supporting the leaders in our schools? Dr. Scott Seaman [00:09:43] Because when you ask them. What's something we could do? Their eyes kind of glaze up because it's so enormous. Like, they don't know where to start. They don't know whether to tell you about how hard it is to manage student discipline. Well, that might be a policy fix with OSPI. They might say to you, I have 34 cert evaluations that I'm supposed to do. Well, that might rest in the anti pep, right? The rules and. Roz Thompson [00:10:09] Rules or the law. Yeah. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:10:11] Some might say, you know, I've pressed too hard and now I'm getting grieved and I don't have any job protection, so I'm out. Roz Thompson [00:10:21] Right. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:10:22] Because I'm within my first three years of principal ing. So I'm. I'm gone. So and then locally, they might have their own context locally within their contracts or with the community that just makes principal thing difficult and or rewarding because we have to examine what's keeping people too as part of this process. So by way of example, Roz, we might have come out with a couple of bills this year that have gathered the attention of people across the system. Yep. Senate Bill 5175. Roz Thompson [00:10:57] Yes. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:10:58] And Senate Bill 5085, Correct? Yep. So why don't we break down those people just so they kind of understand the rationale behind these and maybe what's transpired from just original conversations to now. So why don't we start with the 50, 75 hour, 51, 75. Roz Thompson [00:11:15] 51, 75. Okay. So that bill actually probably through conversations with legislators, in particular, Senator Lisa Wellman, that I'm sure that's the genesis of it, because she really said she said to me in September, I want to write a bill about principle contracts. And that bill, she said, would allow a district not require, but it would allow a district to provide a principal up to a three year contract. And I know in her thinking, she was shocked to learn that it's a year, two year contract that our building leaders have. And I think from her CEO hat of knowing how to run a one companies. It feels like the responsibility and accountability of building leaders is worthy and deserving of more stability and more support in a contract. So she wrote the bill that would allow a district doesn't require but would allow them to provide up to a three year contract. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:12:10] Yeah. So if I'm out there and I'm thinking I wouldn't mind taking a risk and jumping into a building that I know might be hungry or thirsty for leadership, if I knew I could go in there and have the protection to do the work for three or four, three years, I might be willing to take that risk. Roz Thompson [00:12:25] Yep. And I see that also. I think that would be a way. It could be a tool a district uses to recruit somebody into a large high school. And what we're noticing about our internship data, for example, is that we don't have as many interns doing an internship at the high school level. We normally have about 200 interns every year, and about 60 of them usually work at the high school level, and this year we only have 20. So fewer people are choosing that. It's more complicated. There's more of a workload. We know around the state that some districts are having a hard time finding applicants for high school jobs. So it might be a tool that a district could use to say, hey, we need somebody we want somebody in this in this really large school. Here are pieces of what your contract would look like. And we want to give you a two year contract or a three year contract to support you in your work of leading this building. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:13:17] Yeah, I think it's safe to say that ten or 15 years ago, a high school principal opening was a coveted position and they would have 50, 60, 70, 80 applicants for a job like that. I've had more calls in the last two years from superintendents saying, Hey, I've posted a high school principal position and I didn't get any applicants. Right. You know anybody. We've seen districts post and then repost and in the hopes of attracting somebody. So this could be actually something that something that might help a district actually get a highly qualified principal with experience to come. Right. Roz Thompson [00:13:52] Yeah. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:13:53] I know some of the pushback from superintendents is feeling like they're locking somebody into a three year contract. What would you say that? Roz Thompson [00:13:58] I would say, you know, this is great advice from Senator Wellman that, you know, you can write a contract so that there isn't. I think they're fearful of a large buyout or something they might have to do on those contracts, write the contract in such a way that it wouldn't allow for that or would only provide a three month severance package or something like that. So I think it's in how you write the contract. That would be important. So. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:14:24] Yeah, I actually fear and I've been saying this for years, that one day because the shortage is real, the districts might actually have to post like this package to get applicants. You can come here on a three year contract. This is give your salary. You should have benefits. I mean, these are some of the things they might have to list to get people to step into some of these jobs. Okay. Roz Thompson [00:14:47] Yeah. So that's that Bill. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:14:48] All right, let's jump over the other one. That's a little more complex. Senate Bill 5085. Roz Thompson [00:14:52] Is more complicated. That's the one that we we worked on this summer. And we talked with our partners at OSPI We shared some information from our board. And and I think you spoke to earlier the the some of the situations in employment that were, you know, maybe the common themes that we were hearing for some of our members support calls and started looking at existing RCWs and how we could modify some of those to increase some supports. So there's five pieces to that bill initially and through the process as it exists now. And today's the last day of January 2023. So a couple of those sections are gone, but I can walk through the five sections or talk about the existing pieces that we hope make it, because I think some of it is I think of it as low hanging fruit that our system could tighten up. So one example is them making sure the evaluators of principals have some required training. Another piece is making sure that total years of experience and education count. So if I were a teacher for ten years and a system principal for five, that's 15 years and that counts. If I were to move back to a teaching position or a counselor or do something different. The other piece is, is adding assistant principals into the language where after three years an assistant principal position is protected and it's tied to their evaluation in terms of having to be moved to a subordinate position or not. We have incredible people, as you know, who are who choose to do the work of assistant principals, and we have to honor that as a system. So those are the three existing pieces, the other two parts of it related to having been on, you know, in an investigation, on an application, having that and not included is not no longer there. And the piece about talking about contracts and saying, hey, let's talk about some of the working conditions that we want to talk about and making those contracts a little more robust. We've asked that that section be taken out and we'll work more with our partners to talk about what would be a really good model contract and what are the pieces that each district could or should include for their principals. Because we see contracts that are one page, there are the salary and the calendar year and that's it. There's no other information for that principal around their contract language. But we do also see some really robust contracts in our state. So we're trying to get to the point where, you know, across the board our principals feel like lots of different areas of their job in their complicated profession are supported through a good contract. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:17:33] Yeah, I think principal really summarized this well for me one day and he said, yes, my job's crazy. Yes, my job's overwhelming. I love my job though. I love the kids, my school, my community. I don't worry about what's going to come at me every day. I think I can handle it. I'm not putting him exactly, he says. What I worry about is whether I have a job next year. And to me that was that was alarming because this is a super highly effective principal out there in the system. Yeah. The other thing that surprised me is that we do need great lifelong assistant principals. I mean, those leaders are with our kids that need relationships the most. So to me, this seems like an easy, easy way for the system to say, We see you APs, we value APs and we want you to stay where you're at if that's where you are comfortable being, because we need a great lifelong assistant principal. Roz Thompson [00:18:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're much closer to the kids oftentimes, and some of them are very gifted at those systems of MTSS or the PBIS or the discipline or the, you know, those pieces, attendance, you know, how do we really encourage kids to be to school every day and on time and they are closest to the kids and families while the principal is more in the leadership role of of all of the pieces of the systems of a school. So we love our apps. We do we need more of them. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:18:53] Which I guess takes me to the last part of this is like, where do we go from here? I've described this quite often as a principal leadership crisis, but the more I think about it, it's really a education crisis. Yeah, you know, we whether we're teachers, principals, principals and others in the system, we don't do a good enough job of saying to our own children, you should think about this as a profession. So that has to change. So how are we speaking to our students in the system right now? About becoming teachers. Roz Thompson [00:19:24] Right. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:19:25] How are we encouraging our teachers to step out and become, you know, take that risk to become school administrators? What are we doing to address the conditions that some of these leaders are stepping into? So they feel like they can take the risk, Right. What are we doing to encourage assistant principals who right now are quite often telling their principal, there's no way I'm doing your job if you leave, I'm not applying for it. So we have to fix that, Right? And and then I my head hats off to our superintendents for sure. I used to say the high school principal job was probably the toughest in the system. And now I really believe the superintendents have the toughest job in the system. So to me, that's part of this leadership pathway. What can we do to encourage people to see themselves as eventual superintendents and make their jobs realistic as well as we start to think about these pathways? Roz Thompson [00:20:17] Right. And I and my my latest story, one of them is and I do have older children in their twenties, but I am not a grandmother. But I say, who's going to teach my grandchildren at some point when I have grandchildren if I do? Who's going to teach them? Because I'm. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:20:30] Going to announce that. Roz Thompson [00:20:30] No, no, none of my children are pregnant or. Yeah, not not happening yet for a long time. And both of you, if you're watching. But. But so. So who exactly? To your point, how are we encouraging kids and, you know, making this like, oh, this is it a very rewarding, meaningful career to go into education. There's great work around teacher residency prep and how we can provide more hands on and meaningful experiences for teachers who are learning the craft of teaching because it's complex and that can also be transferred to principals. How are we providing those really robust internship experiences so that those leaders feel prepared to step in and lead? And it it really does follow, you know, the overwhelming workload and accountability then that our district administrators and superintendents face. And I you can see it in the last few years, especially through COVID, that our K-12 education system has not only taken on learning, but we've taken on health care and feeding our children and families and all of these things that we care about in our communities. So we have to partner with larger groups in our community, with the early learning sector, with the higher ed sector, with our health care partners. So to make all kids and families have a successful experience. And that will mean that the people in our schools then are truly respected and cared about and are cheering on our kids to become future educators themselves. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:22:03] Yes. So the system needs to attract the next generation. Roz Thompson [00:22:07] Right. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:22:08] And I feel like there's a ton of urgency in this right now. I mean, we need to come together all the alphabet soup in the system. I hope we're listening. We need to come together immediately to figure out what we can do to it to attract. And there's the same urgency around how do we keep the ones that we have in all of these roles. Roz Thompson [00:22:26] Right. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:22:27] So I'm hoping that whether it's in the session or out of the session this year, the groups come together to start talking about the urgency around keeping our great people. So they're short term. Long term. Right. When I think about those three big words that you and I keep using, attract, retain and sustain our school leaders across the whole, whole board. Right. And you know me, I'm also kind of a big dreamer, though, don't you think? We should maybe think about redefining the roles? Roz Thompson [00:22:56] Oh, my gosh. That would be amazing. Yeah, I've heard you describe that. Like the different roles of the assistant principals. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:23:02] Yeah. I mean, we mentioned earlier that 15 years ago, most principals were building, managers. Roz Thompson [00:23:07] Managing. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:23:08] And then they become instructional leaders and managers. Is it realistic now to say or expect for them to be both. Roz Thompson [00:23:14] Great and maybe. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:23:15] We need to explore some different roles, which would involve our university partners, certification and all the others? So. You know, a lot of work. Roz Thompson [00:23:22] A lot of work. It's very complex. Very complex. All the different levers that are out there to help make this profession manageable and sustainable and attractive. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:23:33] So one of the things that we love about Roz is the relationships you have with our partners or agency partners, other audiences or other organizations. But if I'm a principal out there and I'm listening to some of this and it strikes a nerve or I have curiosity, you do a fantastic job of making it so that any principal or assistant principal can engage in advocacy work. Yes. So tell them a little bit about your advocacy counsel. Roz Thompson [00:24:00] Just yeah. So, yeah, we have about 40 ish people around the state who really are committed and interested in this. And so we gather every Monday during the legislative session and have a Zoom and talk about the bills being heard that week. But but more than that, you know, at least throughout interim, it's maybe once a month we check on to check in on some of the hot topics. And, you know, people around the state, if they're you know, in each of our bodies are ones who are interested in talking about and spending more time on some of the issues, whether it's transitional kindergarten or dual credit or things like that. And so I'll try to organize different zooms with legislators or agency partners doing some of that that work. So you certainly I you know, it's kind of a come on, come I would love to have lots of people on that council. And and there's other ways you don't have to devote as much time if we're doing action alerts or you want to partner with a legislator in your area, I'd be happy to make that connection for you so that you're just, you know, emailing them or inviting them to your building when session's over because they're pretty busy right now. But we have lots of new legislators out there that that should, you know, you, you are the expert so you would be educating them is what is the role that you have as a as a principal and what should they know about that? Dr. Scott Seaman [00:25:15] So so that is an all call. Yeah. To those of you out there watching or listening, if you want to help shape the future of education, please reach out to us. I never thought as a high school principal I could go back to Washington DC and actually meet in offices with our elected officials to talk about the realities of principal ing. And now I get the pleasure of watching our principles do and and assistant principals do that very thing. So if you want to get engaged with us at the state level, the national level, please reach out. My favorite thing to do is reach out to Roz. Roz Thompson [00:25:47] Yes, do it. Email me. Be happy. Be great. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:25:50] All right. Well, rise on behalf of all of our members. And all the kids across the state and 295 districts and nine year olds. We can't thank you enough for all the work you do for principals. You are incredible. Roz Thompson [00:26:02] Well, thank you for thanking me, but I am honored to do it on behalf of our members because it's really their work that's tremendous. And there's a lot of respect for principals. When I talk to legislators and all of our agency and government relation partners around the state. Lot of people working on these issues and a tremendous amount of respect for principals and assistant principals. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:26:21] It's really actually kind of nice to have these meetings with you and you and I don't have to really say anything anymore. Yet people are speaking for us. Roz Thompson [00:26:28] We're telling our stories and we want you to tell your stories to us so we can keep relaying all of that. So thanks to our members. Dr. Scott Seaman [00:26:36] And thanks for tuning in to another episode of AWSP TV, AWSP Podcast, AWSP blog, whatever format you read or see or listen to this in. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time.