Ron [00:00:02] Welcome to AWSP and our first episode of AWSP live TV. [00:00:15] I'm here with Caprice Hollins today, Dr. [00:00:18] Hollins from Cultures Connecting and Jack Arend from the Tumwater School District with teaching and learning, former rock star Principal in the Tumwater School District. [00:00:28] So we're really excited about the opportunity to engage in a series over the next few months and beyond to talk about going deeper and leading conversations about race bias and how those impacts the leadership. [00:00:44] You know it's work that AWSP has tackled where we talk about our goal areas as an association. [00:00:53] Our number one area is around equity and that's a priority for us. [00:00:57] You know we spent a lot of time in house really diving into these conversations about what our own biases and how it was impact us. [00:01:08] And we started to push that work out into the field across the state. [00:01:14] You know you go to any school district statewide and you're going to find things and mission statements that revolve around preparing kids to be global citizens, right. [00:01:25] But you know unless we're willing to have a conversation about what that really means that gets beyond academics, gets beyond the social emotional learning and starts to really peel into some of the layers around race and conversations about bias and how those filters impact us, we arent preparing those kids. Caprice [00:01:46] Absolutely, and then how do we how do we get to closing the opportunity gap how do we teach all students in a way that is preparing them to live in a very diverse world, if we're not addressing diversity in the classroom the diversity of what our country looks like how do we teach them if we're admitting an important part of who those students are in the classroom and who they're going to become and who they're going to be working with. [00:02:22] How do we really educate kids if we're not talking about who we are as a people and I think sometimes people just think sometimes educators and it's not this is not just an issue within education, but people have a focus, a task, on something that they're trying to do. [00:02:38] Let's teach children math but we forget that these children that we're teaching these young people that we're teaching come with cultures, they come with experiences, they come with communication styles and values and beliefs that are not like our own and so we can't teach them the math if we don't understand who they are and how they might even learn differently because of those cultures so we're missing this important piece which is really who are those students in order to get to the very thing that I think educators want more than anything which is to have that successful experience of their child under their student understanding math or language arts or the sciences. [00:03:20] Yeah. Ron [00:03:21] Yeah, you know it's interesting because I think about you know my time in the classroom, my time as a leader in a building, and i dont know that i was prepared to lead those conversations. [00:03:33] I mean are so critical. [00:03:34] And as I’ve learned more just you know in the last five or six years and really started to think and pay more attention to it, i don't know that I had those skills and so I would shy away from those conversations. Caprice [00:03:49] Right. [00:03:49] Right. [00:03:50] Are you able to reflect on thinking about had you of known how much better of a teacher you would have been, or a better educator as a result? [00:04:01] Yeah. Ron [00:04:03] You know, I think I was a pretty good teacher in the classroom, but to be an excellent teacher, you have to be able to touch on these subjects, you have to be able to go places that you might have been raised or things you don't talk about or things we don't do. [00:04:20] You know to really understand our kids is such a critical piece to ensuring their being successful. Caprice [00:04:28] I want to give you a chance to speak Jack, but you know these things get me so excited. [00:04:32] So one of the things I think about as I hear you speak, I'm not an educator, well I am in graduate school level educator, but my field is in the profession of psychology right. [00:04:44] And so this idea of how can I affectively help my client If let's say they come in and they're struggling with their marriage or they're dealing with depression or anxiety and I don't take into consideration how their sexual orientation, their rae, their religion, their their ability plays a role in how they see that experience, how they interpret it how it adds to their experiences. [00:05:15] So it would be like me trying to help my client and pretending like they're being in a wheel chair doesn't impact their reality, because I'm too uncomfortable talking about it because I'm an able bodied person. [00:05:28] How could I talk with a gay client about their relationships and not how conversation about what it means to be a gay man in this country or you know to be transgender it's like we're missing an important part of a person's identity that shapes so much of their worldview and helping educators understand that even when they're talking to that parent who may be different from them that that parent is bringing something else with them in that conversation. [00:06:01] And so you may say that you don't notice race, you may say that you don't notice differences, but that differences those differences are very much an important part of that person's life. [00:06:15] How do we help educators to begin to see through that lens at that family or that child is bringing into the room. Jack [00:06:24] That that's really important. [00:06:26] And I think as we're all looking to do that, this lies heavily on the principals shoulders. [00:06:32] And I think as we are saying how do we help educators do this. [00:06:36] You know all of those things, a lot of our educators that don't know how to do that are looking towards their principal and the principal may not know how to do that either. [00:06:45] But it is it is hard to not find a conference anywhere in our state or nation that isn't talking about equity. [00:06:53] Right. [00:06:53] And so as building leaders it's really important that we are acknowledging the fact that we may not know and that we've got to get started on this at some level. [00:07:04] Because it's tough not to know. [00:07:07] No one doesn't like that or to be uncomfortable or really not to know all the intricacies. [00:07:11] This is very complex. Caprice [00:07:13] We call that the conscious incompetence stage right. [00:07:16] Thats the sucky place, right. [00:07:18] I know that I don't know I just don't know what to do. [00:07:21] Right. [00:07:21] And not only is there, there are conferences but there are books you can pick up you can watch a podcast and listen to a podcast, you can watch a video, there are movies and documentaries out there. [00:07:33] I mean I grew up in the era of encyclopaedias. [00:07:36] We have everything at our fingertips now there are so many ways in which learning is possible, we don't have to wait and tell you know something is developed for us, a training is given to us. [00:07:52] In fact we shouldn't wait even if those opportunities are brought to us. [00:07:56] We need to be doing things in between and in between time and in the mean time in writing. Jack [00:08:03] And I think sometimes that is hard to get started. [00:08:06] And yes, we all do know that we should be doing this work and I do believe in the business of a school or a school district. [00:08:13] It's it is reliant on the building leader to say we're all busy. [00:08:18] But this is the work we're going to start. [00:08:20] We have to start this and it's not it's not easy work. [00:08:24] We know that. [00:08:25] But I do think that it's really important to to support the building leader and the people that may have to be. [00:08:33] Talking about this in front of their staff when they may feel uncomfortable themselves. Ron [00:08:38] You know there's a really large body of work that says that no classroom teachers have the number one impact on student learning. [00:08:46] And right behind it is the principal. [00:08:48] Yes. [00:08:50] And you know my wife's an instructional coach and we have conversations at our house about how do things get traction in buildings. [00:08:58] Well they get traction in buildings when teachers believe it but principals prioritize it and remove barriers and provide resources to make that happen. [00:09:11] So you know that's why I believe that as an association it really is kind of a moral imperative to engage in this work because if principals aren’t bringing it back to the building, what you're left with is pockets of teachers. [00:09:26] To decide that that's important, or to be courageous in those conversations and to go down that road. [00:09:33] But but I you know I appreciate what you said about you know they might be uncomfortable and we might not have the tools, but it's our job to find that starting place. [00:09:41] A book and I'm sure we'll circle around to it, but you know a book that we've used quite a bit with principals in our state is Blindspot. [00:09:52] And I'll tell you that my personal experience between conversations I've had with you both in kind of workshop settings both personally and the Blindspots book, those were two pretty pivotal things for me in terms of my understanding. [00:10:09] Once you're able to I think start unraveling why it is that you're uncomfortable and why it is that you go down that road. [00:10:17] You start to go down that road. Caprice [00:10:19] Right. [00:10:21] What you're talking about with the classroom verse what happens in a classroom so you can have exemplary teachers. [00:10:30] I was in Seattle Public Schools for a number of years and I could walk into a classroom and think oh I want that teacher to be my child's teacher some day, right, and then there's this, so that's the individual versus the role that a principal can play in shifting the culture of a building. [00:10:50] And then we talk about at district level, what a district can do to infuse really multicultural content, diversity, really kind of a way of being and operating as a district that central office can support that because principals need that support. [00:11:10] And I'd love to engage y’all in this conversation around what are some of the fears. [00:11:15] Because I do think it's the fears that get in the way and those fears are valid fears right. [00:11:20] I still get people don't think I get scared in this work but I do. [00:11:24] I get that you know like everybody is looking to me to have the answers like I can say I'm not an expert but I still want to be the expert because everybody wants me to be, right and im not. Jack [00:11:33] Principals feel the same way. [00:11:35] You know they are they are looked at often the same well tell us what to do, tell us how to do it, and and help us on this journey. [00:11:43] And so the principal in this case for some of us across the state they may be going huh. [00:11:48] Who do I turn to in this work. [00:11:51] I might be great at reading instruction or all of those. [00:11:54] I might have my lane I travel in often as a curriculum leader or whatever that might be but this might be that fear it might be those things where principals go hmm I need to rely on AWSP I need to rely on my district to collectively do this work together so we are making the biggest impact that we can. Ron [00:12:13] Well and i love that you use the word journey, because is that right. [00:12:18] It's not the build a list, check a list, draw a map and you know you go from point A to point B. Caprice [00:12:26] We wish it was. Jack [00:12:28] I want it to be. Ron [00:12:31] You open the plan and you go right through it and at the end we’ve learned it. [00:12:35] It isn't that. [00:12:37] It's a journey. [00:12:39] It's never going to be over. [00:12:42] Human nature is that we're always going to have bias. [00:12:46] Race is always something that's a construct that exists, right. [00:12:51] So as long as as long as those are factors in our society and they always will be, but the refining how we navigate our world will always be part of what we are what we're doing. Jack [00:13:05] That I think Ron is the fear for for most building leaders is that it's not a box to check. [00:13:13] Because then we can say we've done that right. [00:13:15] And so we all kind of want things to be wrapped up, or great we've had that training now go do the work. [00:13:22] And that's not what this is. [00:13:25] It's just not. [00:13:26] And so as people start to realize that then we start to really kind of settle into the fact that we're in this, like you said to create the new way our district will be we call it our new normal. [00:13:40] What is our new normal in our district and and how are we going to let this be our decisions and our discussions around race and equity be in every single thing we do. [00:13:53] That's not easy work. Ron [00:13:55] You know it's funny, Kurt Hatch in our office, joined us a couple years ago, and exciting and I and I got a chance to work with Kurt professionally in North Thurston in the school district that we both came out and he and I had multiple conversations early on you know, and diversity and equity is a big part of Kurt’s work. [00:14:16] We had multiple conversations early on about are you going to build those modules for principals? [00:14:21] You know where's the lesson plan that I could take back into my building because principals would kill for something like that. [00:14:27] Say, here’s the roadmap to getting it done, and Kurt would always have to say, hey slow down. [00:14:32] That’s not how this works. Jack [00:14:33] That’s what Caprice told me. Ron [00:14:36] Slow down slow down. [00:14:39] There is no roadmap. [00:14:40] There's no module A, B, and C and now we’re done with it. [00:14:44] Right. [00:14:45] But there are strategies and things that we can talk about. Caprice [00:14:48] Tools to guide us. [00:14:49] And I look one of the things that Kurt said that I love is the idea that the process is the product, right? [00:14:58] And I always tell people Oprah Winfrey would bring back her show and put me on it if I had the answers right. [00:15:03] Everybody is seeking the answers and what's exciting to me is that we have an opportunity. [00:15:10] This is a great time in our country to engage in a way that we never have before. [00:15:17] Not really an authentic meaningful ways and shape a new way of being as a culture like we get to like we could to make some change in the 60s. [00:15:28] It was a lot of it was our work to change laws. [00:15:32] I had a lot of it was I mean we still have laws that need to be changed. [00:15:36] But a lot of that was you know we deserve the right to vote. [00:15:40] We deserve it as it should be every person's human right to be able to sit at the same counters. [00:15:46] Now it's about how do I show up in relationship with you not that laws don't need to be changed but how can I be more open to your experiences as someone in a wheelchair. [00:15:59] What don't I know or understand so that when I'm thinking about this idea of wanting to create a welcoming and inclusive space, that I'm doing the work to try to be a part of what that means to create that space for you. [00:16:15] That I don't work wait for Kurt to come in. [00:16:17] As someone who's leading diversity work he can help to guide the districts you know in your in this state. [00:16:24] But that there's that personal commitment that people have to what they want for their students and for the staff by the way, this isn't you know just how we teach the students but also so that those teachers who come with their diversity and differences feel welcome and included so that they can bring all of themselves to those students. [00:16:45] And I still want to go back to fears because I think many of the fears that people have is what's keeping them from diving in like I know for me as a facilitator, one of my fears is not appearing competent that somebody is going to say or do something and I'm going have this moment where I've got to now facilitate the conversation and everybody's looking at probably like a principal does when they're facilitating staff conversations or a teacher does when they're in the classroom. [00:17:21] I have that same fear. [00:17:22] And this is that moment where I feel like that moment that someone says something or does something that I'm afraid that I won't be able to facilitate it well in a way where things are better as a result of my facilitation rather than worse. [00:17:37] I'm thinking to myself I'm going to have to work hard for my money today. [00:17:39] And I hope I've had my rest and I hope I don't let myself get in the way and I'm really scared in that moment. [00:17:48] You know what if, what if i make things worse? [00:17:49] What if i dont know enough? Jack [00:17:53] Right. [00:17:54] And and that's what principles are. [00:17:56] They’re facilitators of that learning, right? [00:17:58] And so they certainly can get a little nervous about that. [00:18:02] What if, what if I can't get out of that conversation, what if I can't provide the right answer or, what if I offend people in the audience or whatever that might be. [00:18:15] Yeah. [00:18:15] So it is it is a lot of fear. Ron [00:18:19] So talk a little bit about what do we know about that. [00:18:25] I talked about it a little bit earlier but you know I say, i think to myself ok so I'm a 50 year old white male and I'm going to stand in front of my staff or infront of a group of parents and I'm going to lead conversations about race, and bias, and equity and, I'm not sure how that's going to go. [00:18:49] You know I haven't walked in the shoes that some of my friends have. [00:18:54] I haven't had some of the experiences that some of my friends have. [00:18:57] So how do I get up and have a conversation about something that i kind of don't know? Caprice [00:19:03] Right. [00:19:03] Absolutely, yeah that's a great question. Ron [00:19:05] How do I go there because I think a lot I mean we'll just be honest when we look at the demographics of principals in our state. [00:19:12] A lot of them fit my demographic. [00:19:15] So if we're shying away from those conversations because of that fear or fears that are like that conversation aren’t going to happen. [00:19:23] So how do we go there? Jack [00:19:26] Well I think from the from the principal point of view or whatever that is. [00:19:31] I'm in the similar demographic, right? Caprice [00:19:34] Im sitting in between two men that are in the similar demographic thats not similar to me but, thats why we are here. Jack [00:19:42] That's right. [00:19:42] That is why we're here. [00:19:43] And I think it's it is difficult and you talked about fears, a fear of mine was who am I as the white male to talk about this? [00:19:51] But I also think, Ron who why wouldn't we. [00:19:56] You know because what we are, are leaders and we are learners. [00:20:01] And so it's it's our job to challenge ourselves so we can model that to say might not know all of this but we're going to get started and we're going to get better together. Caprice [00:20:15] I imagine that there are a lot of viewers who are not convinced or don't believe that race even matters and sometimes people when they say tell me tell me what I can do. [00:20:33] What do you want me to do. [00:20:35] One thing I want people to do is to become curious, to not be convinced that the way in which they see the world or experience the world is the way in which everyone sees or experiences the world particularly for educators. [00:20:50] We are educators that are trying to get our students to be curious about the way the world works about the people that we come across. [00:21:00] It's all about learning and so can we be learners as educators too. [00:21:07] And so to begin to ask questions so that you understand first why this is important and so when you say well what does that look like what can we do. [00:21:18] It might even be the white person who is who grew up with a cousin who was of a different race where race was never talked about. [00:21:30] And they take baby steps which is still a hard thing to do and go back to that cousin and say what was it like for you to grow up or in a white community white family members, and we never once talked about it. [00:21:45] I remember one guy had spoken with had he wasn't convinced and he said you know I have a best friend that's Native American and every year we get together there's about nine of us were all white except for him and we go on this camping trip together. [00:21:59] And I can't remember what organization it was but I come he comes we come back together again one day and he goes you know our camping trip happened, and I was nervous and it wasn't comfortable with it, but I brought it up and brought up race, what has this been like for you? [00:22:14] And our whole conversation was around how he essentially has has as left that part of himself behind when he enters into that space because what happens is a lot of white people when they do have relationships they will assume cross cultural relationships, they'll assume that because the person of color is talking with him about it and there must not be an issue. [00:22:36] But what we learn as people of color is that they're not comfortable with talking about race and so I want to have the relationship with you, so I wait until I'm with people that I can have a conversation with, sometimes it's white people but a lot of times it's people who look like me. [00:22:52] So we're having the conversation here you know and you walk away saying wow that was great and I walk away speaking the truth. [00:22:59] You think we're best friends which we are maybe in some way, but not in a way in which we could be good friends if we could talk about my reality. [00:23:09] So once you know I don't I always say simple or easy lightly. [00:23:13] But one thing is is just start being curious you know and then and then for those who do understand but are in this place of kind of conscious incompetence I understand that race matters, I believe that it matters. [00:23:31] Take the initiative to grow and learn to access all the tools and resources that are out there for you, get hungry and excited around learning and then begin to look at the world through the lens of what it is that you're taking in so that you can test those theories and then baby steps. [00:23:53] Right? [00:23:54] Like don't be a principal standing up in front of a room and you found some lesson and now you're going to go and and then try to teach that to your you know to your staff first maybe just start with my own story. [00:24:06] Right. [00:24:07] With my own story I as a white person I might say or as a multiracial person i’ll say I start out with I was taught you know that I believe that because I come from such a diverse family that I didn't have biases or stereotypes. [00:24:23] My brother is gay my mom's white my brothers and sisters are why my stepmother is from Thailand. [00:24:28] All these things became proof of my truth that I didn't have work to do. [00:24:34] And that might be where I start with with my staff with what I do know what I have learned, that personal work that I've tried to start with well let me do some you know difficult activity kind of thing. [00:24:48] Just start with her truth in the stories that we've told ourselves. Jack [00:24:52] And it's it's I don't think that it does anybody any good to say oh and take this now do this with your students. [00:24:59] Because the learning has to happen first with the adults in the building and the adults in the organization and so as as our district as our institution whatever that is here's what the adults are learning that will get down to students. [00:25:12] But until we address that I think as adults, the teachers, the principals, the all of that I think that's the place buildings have to start. Caprice [00:25:21] And what it and what am I saying and you know I'm interrupter but what am I saying and what are you saying that the learning starts with the conversation. [00:25:28] Yeah. [00:25:30] If we don't start with practicing and just having the conversation everything else becomes what you had talked about earlier this kind of checkbox we wait for this training to come, we then check this box that we did this training versus if I can learn how to have these conversations then I can then begin to think about the experiences that my students are having or that my staff are having and how might I show up differently with them. Ron [00:25:56] So you know it's going back to that idea that it's a journey and it's also a continuum. [00:26:02] Right. [00:26:03] Some people are way over here where I haven’t even started to think about it and I don't know I want to. [00:26:09] Right. [00:26:09] All the way to people who, this is what I do all the time, i love it, and I'm great and comfortable with it. Caprice [00:26:13] Been waiting for y'all to catch up. Ron [00:26:15] Yeah, but you know, it's that. [00:26:19] So to understand that people are going to start in different spaces and the journey's going to go from there. [00:26:25] Just like with our students in the classroom everybody is coming to us with their own set of experience from different places whether it's math or reading or behavioral or whatever it is that's thats human being. [00:26:37] Right. [00:26:38] So you know, to be able to start to build that system that structure in our districts where we're brave enough, aware enough to find out where we are on this continuum and to start the journey. [00:26:53] Right. [00:26:53] Jack I know that you guys have done some work around that in Tumwater. [00:26:56] I mean, tell me about that. Jack [00:27:00] Sure, you bet. [00:27:00] So in Tumwater it was probably three years ago when we invited Caprice to do one of our summer PD sessions and that PD session was basically, hey can you talk about some cultural competency in the classroom. [00:27:14] And that then was so well received that we invited Caprice to do a keynote at our summer PD sessions. [00:27:23] We call that Tumwater University. [00:27:25] And so in that keynote with that time we also then said hey Caprice would you also come the year at these certain dates and talk to our teacher leaders? [00:27:35] We have a group that comes together every 6 —8 weeks representative from every building, administrators and teacher leaders to go over learning curriculum various things. [00:27:46] So Caprice said sure. [00:27:47] So in my thinking as the program administrator moving from the principalship to the program administrator I still was in principal pace, we’ll get Caprice, we'll have the training, that training will go out the buildings, we’ll be done. [00:28:01] Literally I think I had a legal pad with a box to check. [00:28:05] I think I did. [00:28:08] I we’re going to be great, right. [00:28:10] And I remember that after the keynote was really well-received Caprice was able to stay for another session and then and then here she came to back when the school year had started. [00:28:23] And I remember vividly sharing Caprice my idea. [00:28:26] This is how this will go. [00:28:27] You will teach, we will learn, and thank you it's been really nice knowing you. [00:28:32] She said oh we're going slow this down and I don't think any principal likes to hear we're going to slow this down. [00:28:42] And so what happened was that made me start to think and the learning that Caprice started to help our student leaders with, everybody in the room started realizing oh, this isn't a take back to our staff this Friday. [00:29:02] We don't even know how to have this conversation and everything just shifted for our district. [00:29:10] And we had a lot of conversations as district leadership teams as principals as teacher leaders. [00:29:16] Wow. [00:29:17] We don't know what we don't know. [00:29:20] We are not ready to even really address this sincerely and authentically ourselves until we have some more work. [00:29:28] So we backed up. [00:29:30] We slowed this way down. [00:29:32] We took the year to really try and get comfortable in who that group was that was experiencing some more time with Caprice and some activities taking us through and then we realized wow, that was a this is a journey and Caprice was very clear with our district. [00:29:52] This is a journey. [00:29:54] I'm not going to come in and just provide some little trainings and expect that it's all going to be OK. [00:30:00] And she helped guide us in that this would be a lot more damaging if we did it that way then we would then we than we ever would have thought. [00:30:10] So we're in now year three of working with Caprice and we just got done actually this week. [00:30:16] We are in a train the trainer type of model taking this very slowly, principals hand selected teachers that would help do this work at their building. [00:30:25] And so we had some great people in the room that were ready to learn how to become facilitators Not are they the experts yet, Nope. [00:30:34] How do we facilitate these hard conversations or activities or conversations in the staff lounge or whatever that is. [00:30:43] And so those two full days with these trainer trainers talking about facilitation and what does this mean and what happens if what if you do offend then how do you work around that. [00:30:54] I'm I'm very curious as when these activities start heading back into our buildings what the feedback will be. [00:31:01] Yeah, because today they’re facilitating, they’re doing it today. Caprice [00:31:05] And by the way Jack if I'm not mistaken you have other consultants it's not just myself that's coming in you've got a couple of other consultants that are working with board, working with superintendents there is a whole lot of different things going on. [00:31:19] It's not this kind of reliant upon. [00:31:22] We're going to bring Caprice in and she's going to do your you're thinking about it in multiple ways. [00:31:30] My experience of you is that you're also beginning to take this role of being a leader around this as well like by no I didn't tell you this is the way you need to do it. [00:31:45] You have said okay this is the way based on what Caprice is sharing with us this is the way that I think it would work best for our district and i consult with you and say ok well let me give you some advice here, I think that might be moving a little bit too quickly. [00:31:59] Think about what might happen if your principles aren't really prepared and the teachers then take that into the classroom and you know begin to have you imagining things but really I'm not the one telling you that this is the way it needs to go. [00:32:12] And I think that's important for people to understand as they often do want this cookbook formulaic. [00:32:20] I don't know what you can do in your classroom with your students it depends on what district you are in, how much support do you get from your principal, what's your understanding of this work, whats your level of comfort, who are your students in the classroom. [00:32:32] I can't tell you what you will do in your building it depends on who you are and where you're where your commute your school community is. [00:32:40] Nor can I tell you what to do with that parent and there's so much complexity to it. [00:32:47] But if you are willing to begin to take the risk of stepping into something that there are no real answers to. [00:32:58] What you will learn from that in the process is for me has been just life changing and powerful. Jack [00:33:06] And I would I would say that that's exactly right. [00:33:11] When we have some ideas from Caprice ideas from other consultants that we are using ideas around principal meetings that come out around culture and what is the feeling in our buildings. [00:33:23] All of those things that are so important to every leader. [00:33:27] It has spurred some really great mapping for our district of where we want to be, who do we want to be, and how are we going to go about everybody's learning in that. Ron [00:33:41] So talk a little bit about the role of self-awareness in this, right. [00:33:48] We've kind of touched on it a little bit but I think when I think about my own journey, and my own awareness, and just that whole where do I start in this. [00:33:58] One of the things that I hear Kurt talk about all the time in our office is man, you start with yourself. [00:34:04] You have to start with your own understanding. [00:34:06] So can you talk a little bit about that and what role does that play. [00:34:11] When people out there saying I'm watching this because I want to know what to do. [00:34:16] Sounds like what to do starts with you. Caprice [00:34:19] Absolutely right. [00:34:20] Absolutely. [00:34:22] Yeah I think about how so many people in our society are taught to approach race with kind of this universal approach that we're all human. [00:34:35] You know we all Believe right. [00:34:36] I’m like Yes, i don't you know. [00:34:38] Well the universal is more like we're all human right. [00:34:41] We are all human right. [00:34:43] But that's not that misses out on some other parts of what I am yes, I'm human and I'm a woman, yes I'm human and I'm multiracial, yes I'm human and all of these identities that I hold and in other words it kind of proposes that everybody has the same need that what respect looks like for you isn't the same as what it looks like for me. [00:35:05] And another common approach that people take is that kind of colorblind approach that's that individual approach right. [00:35:11] Well im an individual and you're an individual I'm going to treat you based on how you treat me right. [00:35:18] I don't notice race. [00:35:19] And of course we do. [00:35:21] You know I notice your gender I notice the color of your jacket of course we do no. [00:35:26] But all those things are a socialised process. [00:35:29] We are taught not to notice race, that we're a bad person if we do look at our history and know what we've done out of noticing race what we've done to people so the pendulum swings in the other direction and we think well we're just not going to notice and we're just going to treat everybody like human beings which is good but it's not enough. [00:35:48] And so part of that personal work is looking at how I've been socialized to think that way, and then what's the harm in it. [00:35:55] So I always tell it in my workshops I always tell people you know what is it that you want me to know. [00:36:02] What do you think someone wants me to know when they tell me and they don't notice my race. [00:36:07] Well we the audience will come up with things like they want me to know that they're going to treat me fair but they're not going to let my race get in the way that they're not going to be racist towards me in any way. [00:36:17] And so in other words it comes from a good place. [00:36:19] But what I always say is you know what I want to know is why can't I be black and you do those things. [00:36:26] Why do you have to not see me in order to treat me fairly. [00:36:30] Why do you have to you know not notice something that's an important part of who I am. [00:36:35] And then what what messages do children get, and then later we become adults about what it means to be different. [00:36:42] Right so we end up some of of internalizing that as being an inferior being. [00:36:49] And so while so when you say this question of what can I What can we do? [00:36:54] Or you know starting with that personal work just look at what we've been taught. [00:36:59] People are doing the same thing that I used to do. [00:37:01] They will point to someone in their life or multiple people in their life as proof of their truth that they don't have any work to do. [00:37:09] You know I work with someone who is Asian I I you know I dated someone who is and you know you can fill in the blank. [00:37:16] My children are even being a person of color becomes proof that the work is white people's work and that I don't have any work to do as a person of color. [00:37:25] And the truth is we're all being socialized now when it may impact as in different ways how you're taking in racism or bias or what have you and what that's doing to me, maybe different things, but I got some unpacking to do because it is informing how I engage. [00:37:41] So starting with ourselves is probably not only the most important place to start, it's also the hardest place to start, because it means then that I'm acknowledging that the work isn't just about they, those, them out there. [00:37:56] Right. [00:37:57] And I'd rather say you're the one with the problem than me and what I find that's fascinating and you know you were telling a great story before we turn on the cameras. [00:38:05] I love to watch myself like I love to see all the ways in which I find myself surprised. [00:38:13] I always say surprised is the emotion that you feel where you realize that you have a stereotype. [00:38:19] I mean this is just one example. [00:38:21] I say you know can I speak to the person in charge and I'm not thinking anything about this until the person in charge comes out and then all of a sudden they realized, oh I didn't realize that the person in charge might be Muslim, or in a wheelchair, or and I don't have that surprise when it’s a white man that comes out because I've been taught that white men are the people in charge and so just these moments where I realized wow there's another way in which I've been taught that people who look like me aren't in these types of roles. Ron [00:38:57] That you know that is powerful. [00:38:59] It's interesting. [00:39:01] You know I was raised in a family, great parents, that really emphasized that we don't talk about those things because it's impolite and like you said, it came from a good place, but I was probably in my early to mid 40s before it even started to occur to me that by not talking about it because it would be impolite is impolite. [00:39:28] Right. [00:39:28] So to come to that realization that these conversations need to happen, this should be happening between myself, and my staff, and my parents community, and my students because that's how we start to understand each other and thats how we start to learn about our own biases. [00:39:50] And really understand how that impacts you know from a principal perspective, how does not talking about that impact my leadership. Caprice [00:39:57] Right and whose interests are being served when when it's not being talked about. [00:40:03] It's not it's not people of color. [00:40:05] It's not people with disabilities. [00:40:07] It's not people with different you know religious or beliefs right. [00:40:13] It's the person of the privileged group right. [00:40:15] I know privilege is a triggered word. [00:40:17] We can talk about that. [00:40:19] Well that's a whole nother you know a whole nother day but when it serves the person who is left feeling comfortable by not having to engage or enter into these spaces where they've never explored before so let's say I'm meeting your pre you know 40 year old self and I've known my whole life that race matters that my race matters and then you're like hey it's just all about we're all human and we don't notice race. [00:40:46] I'm like what do you mean do you know what happened to me in the store the other day, do you know the fear I had when my husband was driving through the mountains or whatever it is. Ron [00:40:55] But i dont do that, so its not a thing, Right. Caprice [00:40:56] Right. [00:40:57] So now I can't really talk to you because we're coming from very different places. [00:41:01] And the message that I get as a person of color is make Ron feel comfortable being around me and to make Ron feel comfortable being around me that means that I don't talk about my truth particularly if you're my boss particularly if it's not the culture of the organization I'm in. [00:41:19] I learned that and then I go home feeling exhausted of how much Ive had to leave myself behind. Jack [00:41:26] You had talked about you didn't realize that it was impolite until for a while or you had that moment when you realized oh, by me not addressing this it's not the way I should be doing that. [00:41:42] I remember as like fifth or sixth year in my principalship when that realization came to me about how much of these families I was missing. [00:41:52] I was not acknowledging the family. [00:41:56] I was acknowledging families in our building we were you know what, what is every principle want. [00:42:01] Oh everybody's welcome everyone's, we were not in our building acknowledging families of color. [00:42:09] We did not have a good understanding of their cultural heritage. [00:42:13] We did not have an understanding of what may or may not be offensive to them. [00:42:18] And it was when that realization started for me when I really started having conversations with our staff about what are we doing what do we know what do we not know. [00:42:28] And that didn't gain a lot of traction in our building because I didn't know how to do that. [00:42:35] And so having the conversations was one thing but not I just didn't know what to do with that. [00:42:41] Because I think I didn't know what to do with me. [00:42:43] And so that that's been a journey for me. [00:42:46] But I think it's really important that every building you said every district is going to say preparing students for a global economy or whatever that is in every boardroom talks about that. [00:42:59] They also say we all have a very welcoming environment and that's going to be on some type of school improvement plan. [00:43:05] We have a welcoming environment. [00:43:08] And my question is did we? [00:43:11] Did we really, and who was it welcoming to? Caprice [00:43:14] So when I think about what you're saying and this question that you had as we were talking about awareness and now you're bringing in this knowledge this knowledge of the families that you're serving. [00:43:25] I know one cultural norm about our society in general operates under particularly white culture is that when someone is being when a child is being disciplined, and in a way a way that that child shows that they're listening they hear you that they are being respectful of you is to look at you when you're talking to them. [00:43:49] Right. [00:43:50] Look at me when I'm talking to you. [00:43:52] Maybe a teacher isn't saying that maybe a principal isn't saying that but they might be thinking that. [00:43:58] Because that's the cultural norm that they're operating under so that when that student doesn't they may then label that child as being defiant resisted disrespectful. [00:44:11] Absolutely. [00:44:12] Not having knowledge that maybe that child's culture that in that child's culture not looking at you when you were disciplining them that thats what is respectful. [00:44:24] All right but if I don't have knowledge of the cultures that I'm serving and I'm not aware that this is my cultural norm that I'm operating under then how will i then affectively engage that student in that moment? [00:44:37] Our cultures are going to clash. [00:44:41] And this is where we end up seeing more kids of color for example in you know facing disciplinary action as one as one example and how this plays out and why it's important that we do some personal work and then we also make value statements around our cultural norms. [00:45:03] So we believe, we all believe our way is the right way if we didn't believe our way was the right way we wouldn't do it that way. [00:45:11] So then we come face to face with these other cultures and then we believe that those cultures should change the way that they do things to more aline with our culture and what I'm saying oh our culture I'm meaning white culture, right. [00:45:25] You hear things like you know I remember being at a district where a bus driver had disciplined a child telling me it was elementary school child that they should not be speaking Spanish on the bus. [00:45:39] And that's around a belief around like this is America you know could have speak English so we don't see the ways in which our our pushing our values and beliefs not understanding what might be going on for someone else then takes precedence, and now the environment is no longer welcoming. [00:46:01] It's no longer inclusive. Ron [00:46:02] Its interesting that you talk about that. [00:46:04] I think about my time as an elementary principal. [00:46:08] And you know our primary kids are your preschool or our kindergartners are the ones that you know they're learning how to assimilate just to school in general. [00:46:18] Right. [00:46:19] But you have kids that are coming through our doors who spend 17, 18 hours a day in their cultural environment, and then they walk through the door of the school and we expect them to assimilate to what's going on, as you rightfully termed it, in a school that operates on white culture. [00:46:40] You raise your hand, you don't blurt out, you sit down, you don't get up and go get a toy just because you see it. [00:46:46] But in their family that might be how you survive at the dinner table, we don't take turns talking, we talk louder, we talk over, and we miss the conversations while they cross. [00:46:54] That's my normal. [00:46:56] And I might be 15, 16 years old and that's still how we do things at home. [00:47:01] And you know Anthony Mohammad is one of my favorite authors, talks about you know we're trying to teach kids how to code switch, right, to get into so that they can assimilate what we do. [00:47:13] And I think we're missing the boat is we're trying to force kids into that, but we’re not going to where they are to seek a better understanding. [00:47:22] And there's our disconnect. Caprice [00:47:23] Yeah I have a great story around this. [00:47:25] So my son's in first grade and you know I've been teached you know when you're in the classroom and you raise your hand and this is what respect means. [00:47:34] Now we can inturrupt and you know tell a story and get really excited and energized or what have you in the home, but I'm teaching him here's how you behave when you're in the classroom. [00:47:42] Now at this school it was a predominantly Asian and African American student population predominantly white teachers, I walk into the classroom and it's reading time so they're all on the carpet, right, and the teacher is reading a book and the kids are having a great time with this story. [00:47:59] They're shouting out you know they're you know doing they're just being them they're enjoying that moment. [00:48:05] And here is my son the only kid who's raising his hand, waiting to get called on. [00:48:11] And I'm like How do I explain this to him that there. [00:48:15] And I do wish that more teachers would do this which is to explain to kids it's not that that we don't have to learn that you can't always interrupt but just to help kids understand these are the moments where it's important that you you engage in this way so when you're when you're talking in your groups it's ok if you get up and down and come to me back and forth that you are all doing working on projects in different areas there you don't have to like we could have that high energy level and everybody's engaged and there's noise but when I'm maybe teaching a lesson and I want to be able to get different thoughts in the room and get to then I want you to raise your hands so that I can think about who I'm going to call on and who hasn't had a chance to be heard. [00:48:58] I mean I'm making this up as I am as I'm as I'm speaking but kids have to figure out what the rules are and it's usually a long time before they get it and many times the teachers aren’t really creating those rules where the learning has different styles. [00:49:16] It usually is there is one way in which we learn. [00:49:19] I teach, and whatever it is that we're doing here is how you participate you participate by. [00:49:25] So I never get to bring my energy my excitement about who I am into the classroom. Ron [00:49:33] And how exhausting for those kids. [00:49:35] I mean if thats your world on the weekends and on evenings and on breaks and then you come back to an environment where you're trying to push yourself into that new set of rules a new set of expectations and of course we need to learn that skill because that's that's the workplace in the world we're getting ready to live in. [00:49:53] But it's got to be exhausting for kids to have to check who they are at the door, walk through it and attend, then we wonder why they get booted because you can only rein that in for so long until you start to really learn the rule and maybe we need to start rethinking, what are the rules how are we teaching them? Caprice [00:50:14] Right, and are they the right rules like when I worked in African American Academy, so predominantly black school, k-8, the lunch lady was a white woman and she kept complaining you know over and over again that the kids were being unruly and we're trying to help her understand if you actually look at what the kids are doing they're not fighting, they're not having conflict like this is their time to let loose, really look at what is going like actually focus in and look and see what are the kids doing, they're having fun. [00:50:49] Can the lunch time be do they have to still stand in line? [00:50:53] Do they do they have to still behave and act in a way that we think is the right way? [00:50:59] As long as no one is being hurt, as long as they're not doing anything dangerous, as long as they're like they've been in the classroom all day long, I can't be in a room all day long and not you know let out some of that you know energy. Ron [00:51:16] You know this is great stuff. [00:51:19] I'm excited to be able to just you know have this conversation. [00:51:22] And you know I appreciate the map. [00:51:28] We're starting to draw out here and the road that we’re taking. [00:51:31] You know, being able to partner with WASSA and WASDA and OSPI I mean people are starting to really dial in on the right work, and what what's this journey going to look like. [00:51:44] You know we're going to continue to have these conversations. [00:51:48] You know and I'm excited you know for our audience we're we're planning multiple conversations in a kind of a series around as around just how do we need this. [00:51:58] And you know I'm looking forward to our next conversation we talked about it earlier. [00:52:01] I mean you and I have shared my story with you about privilege and how that used to make bristle a little bit. [00:52:08] You know If i can’t understand that, how do I start to navigate it and be better for kids and better for other people. [00:52:15] Right. Caprice [00:52:18] I had one thought just as youre closing and I will let you do the closing, but I do get so excited about this but I think about as you talked about who you were you know pre 40 and and then I think about where you are now and if I was to ask you know, where was you know this organization five years ago, ten years ago, 15 years ago, where was I, you know five years ago, ten years ago and thinking about what members in the audience have to look forward to. [00:52:51] My son, he had said that this work is people will often approach this work like like wanting to have that fit body right like I want that body in the magazine, right, but we actually don't want to go to the gym, I know i don't I don't, we don't want to, you know do that eat healthy we don't want to do all the things that not It won't get you there overnight. [00:53:14] But it's just ok I'm not going to eat this thing today. [00:53:17] And that gradually that as we then look back it's like wow here we are. [00:53:22] And that's the work that's the journey not the event, not the one day I didn't need that and that meal, how come I haven't lost all this weight? [00:53:30] How come I don't have those muscles bulging or whatever it is that I want that yeah it's tiring and just when I think everything is ok, you know, I spend some time relaxing and not taking care of myself and the next thing I know I'm unhealthy again. [00:53:44] And so this constant need to just be mindful of how we show up in the world. [00:53:49] What's going on in our heads, what were we taught practicing, getting in those uncomfortable places. [00:53:55] It's not always easy. [00:53:57] I would rather have the peach cobbler you know salad you know or whatever it is and not probably a good comparison. Ron [00:54:05] No, im loving it, now im hungry. Caprice [00:54:10] I want it to be easy. Ron [00:54:13] Well and that's that's why I'm excited about this because I mean you. [00:54:17] I like that analogy because it's a workout, and we're going to have to work hard and things are going it's going to be uncomfortable, there’s days you're not going to want to get up and do this. [00:54:27] But it's the necessary steps that we're going to take as a profession, as an association and maybe even more importantly as we start to understand who we are in this big world and what our place is in it. [00:54:45] So you know I'm looking forward to the conversations and thank you guys for being with us. Jack [00:54:49] Oh I'm really encouraged about this. [00:54:51] I'm really. [00:54:52] Thanks for having us. Ron [00:54:53] See you guys next time!