EPISODE 35

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] DS: Do you enjoy listening to On The Ear, but wish you could earn ASHA CEUs for it? Start today. SpeechTherapyPD.com has over 175 hours of audio courses on-demand, with an average of 19 new audio courses released each month. Here's the best part, each episode earns you ASHA Continuing Ed Credits. Oh, no wait. This is the best part. As a listener of On The Ear, you can receive $20 off an annual subscription when you use code EAR21. Just head to SpeechTherapyPD.com to sign up and use code EAR21, E-A-R-2-1 for $20 off your annual subscription.

[00:00:48] DS: You're listening to On The Ear, an audiology podcast sponsored by SpeechTherapyPD.com. I'm your host, Dr. Dakota Sharp Au.D, CCC-A, audiologist, clinical professor and lifelong learner. While I primarily work with pediatric cochlear implants and hearing aids, I am absolutely intrigued by the many areas of audiology and communication in general. This podcast aims to explore the science of hearing, balance and communication with a variety of experts in hopes of equipping you to better serve your patients, colleagues and students. Let's go! We are live and On The Ear, brought to you by SpeechTherapyPD.com. 

[00:01:35] DS: In health care, we can sometimes focus so much on our clinical care that we fail to realize the impact of the relationships we make with other professionals. In a previous episode of On The Ear with Dr. Danica Pfeiffer, we explored Interprofessional Practice and how it can lead to improved competency and care from clinicians. 

Today, we're going to look at another form of professional connection, mentorship, all with the help of our amazing guest. Dr. Riley DeBacker is a Research Audiologist and Post-Doctoral Fellow at the National Center for Rehabilitative Auditory Research in Portland, Oregon. His research focuses on Predictive Statistical Modeling of ototoxic hearing loss, related to treatments for cancer and HIV. Riley also serves as the leader of the risk modeling core of the International Ototoxicity Management Group and a member of the AAA Guidelines and Strategic Documents Committee. 

[DISCLOSURE]

[00:02:20] DS: Just a couple of financial disclosures. I'm the host of On The Ear and receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD.com and Dr. Riley DeBacker received compensation for his contribution to this presentation. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:29] DS: Hey, Riley. I'm so excited that you're joining me. How are you doing?

[00:02:33] JRD: It's a great afternoon that is not super-hot after a heat wave. So I cannot be mad.

[00:02:39] DS: Yeah. I think it's those first glimmers of almost foul that are then swiftly taken away from us as blistering heat returns. Tell me you in Oregon, currently?

[00:02:48] JRD: Yes. I'm really glad you introduced me. I didn't have to stumble through NCRAR. I can just say the acronym now, but yeah. I moved to Ð about a year ago.

[00:02:59] DS: Awesome. How are you liking it so far?

[00:03:00] JRD: I love it. The weather is much better than Ohio or Tampa, where I did my internship. So 10 out of 10 would Ð

[00:03:07] DS: Oh, gotcha. Wow. You've experienced each coast and the center of the country. That's pretty awesome. Not many people have had that experience. That's really cool.

[00:03:16] JRD: Awesome is a word.

[00:03:18] DS: Yeah. I guess a lot of moves aren't necessarily so awesome. I do really want to talk a little bit and I know we didn't really talk about this, but I do really want to talk about some of your research, too, maybe towards the end if we've got some extra time. I'd love to hear more about what y'all are learning at the CRAR, right? The NCRAR. Got it. Got it, but today we're talking about mentorship, because a while back, I read an article you wrote and I looked into, it looks you've done some research into mentorship for clinicians specifically in audiology. I'm curious what your background is, what brought you and drew you into researching this topic more closely?

[00:03:50] JRD: I don't want to misrepresent myself. I haven't done any original research on mentorship, but I and some partners have presented a couple times on mentorship, that's national meetings. So we've been digging a lot into literature from other fields and empirical work that's been done and reapplying it to audiology, because while I think audiologists are great and very unique as a profession. I do think there's some lessons we can learn from other places, just set that aside first.

[00:04:19] DS: That makes sense. I think one of the names I saw in some of your previous presentations was another previous guest of the podcast. Dr. Gail Whitelaw. I think she had done some work with you on this before.

[00:04:29] JRD: Yes. Yeah. Gail and I worked with Ashley Hughes on a presentation Ð

[00:04:33] DS: Wait, I think, another previous guest of the podcast. Oh, my gosh. We got all of y'all. Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:04:39] JRD: Yeah. A couple of years ago, I knew Gail and Ashley both as different mentors of mine. Gail was the clinic director or is the clinic director at Ohio State where I did my ADD and my Ph.D. Ashley is the previous Chair of the SAA Advisory Committee for the National Student Academy of Audiology, which I am a former president of. So through those kinds of previous volunteer and school experiences, I'd met the two of them and gotten a lot of mentorship from them. 

When Ashley approached Gail and I and said, ÒHey, I think it would be really good for us to do this talk on mentorship.Ó Gail and I were both really excited, but I had this hesitation, where I like, these are two very experienced audiologists that I respect a lot. There is that really understandable hesitation of feeling like, ÒOh, I don't know what I have to contribute to a conversation about mentorship.Ó But as the conversation developed, and as I'm sure we'll getting to here, I think that's a little bit of a problem in how we think about mentorship, is this one directional thing where you find a mentor who is going to pour wisdom into you, and you are this empty cup to become a mold of them. 

Instead, what we found when we looked into mentorship, and when we started presenting is something we had called the circle of mentorship. So cue Lion King music, that I'm sure we can play, where we talked about how you are always doing bidirectional exchange when you're doing mentorship. Even when you're being mentored, there are things that you're giving back to a mentor, probably. Also, you were preparing to become a mentor in the future, when you're doing that. The turnover is a lot faster than we think even looking back to our graduate programs. I think a lot of us can probably pinpoint times where we learned things from older students in the program, who were not in any formal mentorship role, but gave us some really valuable wisdom and feedback. 

That cycle is beginning already, where even as we gain a little bit more experience, or even younger students or students working with professionals, might have skills that they've picked up that we don't have. I have a student right now that has a lot more experience with bone implanted devices than I do. So as we've been chatting about that there have definitely been pearls that I've pulled away, even in a formal mentorship relationship that I have with this student. 

[00:07:05] DS: That's great. That's great. I like that we're already learning some key terminology here. I'm hearing bidirectional mentorship. We've got the circle, is it the circle of mentorship or am I miss naming that one?

[00:07:16] JRD: That is not a formal name by any Ð

[00:07:19] DS: No. No. No. We're trademarking that one here. Okay. Awesome. So let's start then with I guess, I don't know, where do you feel is the best way to introduce this, because I do, part of me wonders, I feel I work hard to recognize the mentors in my life and maintain relationships, right? But I don't think at any point in training or in school, where we were taught explicitly how to seek out a mentor and what does this relationship look like? I guess I'm curious, when you first engaged in this mentor/mentee relationship, what was your background going into it? Had you had any formal training in that? Were you just winging it and hoping the mentor guided you along?

[00:07:59] JRD: I wish that I had had all of the incredible wisdom that Ashley, Gail, and I passed on during that talk when I started my mentorship relationships, obvious. 

[00:08:09] DS: Sure, sure. 

[00:08:10] JRD: I think, when I look back at my experiences with mentorship and starting those processes, I don't think I ever sat down and said, ÒOh, hey, I'm going to seek out informal mentorship in a really intentional way.Ó I had certainly had mentors that were professors and there was an obvious defined mentorship role, but then we went on and exceeded it. So for example, Gail was a professor of mine, but then I went on and continued a mentorship relationship with, after that. 

I don't think we ever sat down and said ÒHey, Gail, these are things I would like from you, as a mentor, post this relationship we have had.Ó Vice versa, she didn't sit down and say these are things I would expect from you, but we learned a lot of things we were doing and would recommend that people have versions of that. We can get into that in a minute, certainly. I also think that there are some formal mentorship relationships that we set up as a field. So for example, I had mentioned Ashley and I had initially met, because she was a formal mentor that was set up for me through the American Academy of Audiology. There was a very set way we were going to meet once a month. We were going to talk about Ð

[00:09:28] DS: Much more structured.

[00:09:29] JRD: Exactly. Then that relationship, again, grew and changed over time. Neither of us are involved directly with the SAA, right now, but both of us continue to work together on different projects, and mentor each other. There's a gray area we can talk about where we go from mentorship to collegiality and what that looks like. 

[00:09:55] DS: Sure, sure. 

[00:09:56] JRD: I think, there are lots of ways that in school, in intentional ways, we set up the informal and formal mentorship networks, but we don't always label them that way. For example, I think if you talk to a lot of audiology faculty, they would recognize, ÒOh, yeah, I mentor students. It is a formal part of my job to do that.Ó But if you ask them what that looked like, they might have trouble articulating those particular activities. Similarly, I think if you asked students, they would say like, ÒOh, yeah, I have a thesis mentor.Ó Or, ÒI have a mentor for this thing.Ó It is not so much a, ÒOh, I have a professional mentor, that is my professor and they give me these things.Ó

[00:10:38] DS: Got it. Okay, so I see how we have this play between the formal and informal and I feel like in the workplace, having a job in a university setting, there's so much talk of mentorship. It's a lot more formalized there. It's like, you've got to seek out your mentor and here are the rules for mentor/mentee and how much you're supposed to be in contact, but I feel like, yeah, you're right. There are these unspoken rules for the more informal mentor/mentee relationship. I'm curious in the workout we're doing and then the discussion if you found, is there a pattern in who tends to first engage the more informal version of this? Do mentees tend to seek out mentors more? Do mentors find themselves a mentee?

[00:11:17] JRD: I will say, I don't think there's any real empirical evidence for this. I can talk to you a little bit about what I've heard anecdotally, from a lot of people as we've been presenting on this, and as I've talked about this with some folks. I think, often we really set up the paradigm, where we tell people to find mentors. I can't really think of a time where I was ever told to find someone to mentor. I would never Ð find a mentee and seek that out. Even as someone who is interested in faculty roles and moving into mentorship. What we do here all the time is find someone to mentor you and pull you up. Here are the ways to do that. 

I think a lot of the time we hear that in more informal contexts, right? We go to professional talks at conferences, or there might be an aspect of our program where we're told to seek those things out. It's very seldom that we hear it in the other direction, where we say you will gain a benefit as a mentor in having a mentee. So go find one that makes sense.

[00:12:26] DS: That's interesting. I think that makes total sense, right? I guess it would be difficult from a mentor perspective, such as, say, ÒHey, you, you seem promising. I'm going to take you under my wing.Ó Then the mentee has no interest, but I do see, at least in my experience, I feel like a lot of it is mentee driven and then good mentors, see that they're filling that need whether or not it's formally expressed. They do take up the mantle, and maintain the communication, and maintain the relationship. 

I want to dig into the audiology side of this specifically, but before we do, if we could just zoom out and talk a little bit more about the meta of mentorship. It sounds like the work you all did, you looked at how mentorship looks in other professions and in other disciplines. I'm curious, what are some of the insights you learned from that research? Some of the things like in a mentorship relationship, who really gets the benefit here? Is this better for the mentee? Is this better for the mentor? I'm assuming both can get some benefit. I feel we would always assume the mentee is the one gaining the knowledge and the wisdom and the experience, and the connections and the networking, there's just so many aspects of this that are beneficial. I'm curious what your work found about how this is beneficial for people to participate in?

[00:13:38] JRD: I feel like as a new professional, this is my chance to sell everyone on the fact that everyone wins with mentorship. Obviously, I might have a little bit of bias there. I do think Ð

[00:13:49] DS: This is your chance to sell us on it. This is your moment.

[00:13:52] JRD: The research really shows benefit on both sides, right? I'm going to start with the benefits to the mentor, because I think people have less trouble articulating the benefits to the mentee, right? If I put you on the spot right now you could walk through and tell me like, ÒOh, you're going to gain access to people's networks, and yada yada yada.Ó But when we think about benefits that a mentee gets, I'd like to say or that a mentor gets from a mentee. 

I'd like to say first, returning to that point about students teaching us things, arguably, probably to a lesser extent. All of the benefits we can think of a mentee getting from mentorship relationship. A mentor can also get, right? A mentor can expand their network of contacts through a mentee. A mentor can learn new things. Something I hear all of the time from people is that they like taking students in their practice and doing clinical precepting, not just because it feels good to give back to the profession and you're educating the future of audiology, right? 

There is also an aspect where it keeps you on your toes to a certain extent. It's something I hear all the time, right? When I bring students in, they asked me why I do what I do. I have to think about that. I have to have a reason why this is my standard operating practice inside of my clinic. I also get a chance to hear things that I might not hear otherwise. We all have CEU requirements on a CEU podcast, obviously, I need to acknowledge that, but we choose those things that we're seeking out Ð 

They are exposed to the breadth of the profession, hopefully. that means that if I'm someone that doesn't see a certain type of patient very often, or maybe I have a certain way that I see tinnitus patients, but then I have a student who comes in and says, ÒOh, hey, in my tinnitus class, last semester, we learned about this new therapy that seems to be really effective. Have you ever recommended that to patients?Ó That might be the first time I've heard of that, that might be a really good opportunity for me in my practice, that I wouldn't have heard about, if I hadn't had a student, because I might not have sought that opportunity out or I would have had to wait and see it on the schedule of 3 million talks at AAA and decide to jump to it, instead of the happy hour. 

[00:16:22] DS: Exactly.

[00:16:22] JRD: We're faced with, right? 

[00:16:23] DS: Exactly. 

[00:16:24] JRD: There are those things that I think are easier to think of, but if we really dig into some of the literature, some things that surprised me a lot, is that mentors tend to make more money than people that are not in mentorship relationships. 

[00:16:39] DS: Interesting.

[00:16:39] JRD: I want to acknowledge, there is no causation research there, right? We could say, people who make a lot of money get sought out to be mentors. That's totally possible, but we do see that mentors indicate feeling more engaged with their work and with their profession, than people who aren't mentors. It tends to pull people back in, it can help to prevent burnout. The more engaged people are, the more willing they might be to take on opportunities that allow them to get promotions that allow them to move up within organizations is one of the thoughts I saw put forward in this literature. 

There are financial incentives, be they indirect to mentorship, that also translate to some really good protective benefits to the profession, right? It's good for Audiology if experienced audiologists that have a lot to offer don't get burnt out. There's benefit to the profession in those experience audiologists sharing that experience with younger audiologists, certainly.

[00:17:40] DS: That makes complete sense. I think, I'm appreciative that you started with these points from the mentorÕs perspective, because, wow, that was really insightful and something I had not considered at all. I think that might be one of the best pieces of advice we can give to current students and current people in a potential mentee role or looking for mentors is, don't be afraid to engage in those kinds of conversations with mentors. I feel like sometimes the power dynamic clinically can be challenging, and you might not want to challenge the way someone practices audiology. But the example you gave, I think was perfect of just suggesting something you had recently learned about in a class or in a different clinical site and just seeing what conversation that sparks, because that might acknowledge the person who is with you. ÒWow, this studentÕs really bright, this student really cares about this specific aspect of audiology or care.Ó 

I think that's an amazing example of both sides have this mentor/mentee relationship and how that can come about, I guess, in a way I didn't even think about. Really cool and so with the financial thing, your advice then was find as many mentees as possible. No. No. No. That is really interesting, though. I think that's, that's a really cool connection. I do appreciate you pointing out how it benefits the entire profession, because in the other episode, when we talked about interprofessional collaboration that obviously has ways of improving our profession beyond just the care you provide is more competent, but also just other professions, understanding what we do. 

I think we see something similar between older generations, who are mentors learning more about audiology, through their mentee, sometimes than through a CEU opportunity. I think, those are really great examples and really, really cool. Okay, you broke down some of those benefits to the mentor. Anything outside the box and for the mentee or things where you don't typically think of, but might be benefits of having that relationship from the menteeÕs perspective.

[00:19:33] JRD: I think a lot of the benefits to the mentee. I found personally unsurprising, but I will also point out, I found myself in a position where I'm talking about this. I took a lot of advantage of things. To just briefly hit on them, I think there are obvious advantages to being a mentee in that you get access to experience that you don't have, right? We learn a lot in school about clinical practice from the perspective of a research base. Then we go out into practice, we go talk to experienced audiologists to learn how to apply those things, because evidence-based practice includes good clinical judgment, right? We know that. 

This is something that we learn quickly, hopefully, as we're learning and developing as a young audiologist. There's also, I think, a really big thing that we miss out on a little bit is thinking that when we seek out a mentor, they have to be everything, right? I need to find a mentor that is going to teach me how to be a great clinician, and have the job that I want to have when I'm done and introduce me to these other audiologists that are going to be good connections for me and proofread my resume for me when I'm getting ready to apply for jobs, and, and, and, and. The trouble is, if I go in with that expectation, especially if I don't talk to them about that, that can become really overwhelming really quickly and that can become a not great mentorship experience. 

It is also the fact that, quite frankly, I think some of my best mentors have been really short-term mentors that helped me with one specific thing. Someone I think of a lot actually for this is Dave Jedlicka, at the Pittsburgh VA, gave the best how to get a job talk, I've ever heard in my life. I went to JB Vac a couple years ago. He gave a student session that was all about how to get a job. I reached out to him and I was like, ÒHey, I feel like my resume is fine, but could be better.Ó Over the course of a couple of weeks, we corresponded. He gave me some really great advice. Now it's something where I reach out to him, periodically. 

We run into each other at conferences, we talk, we have a good collegial relationship, but the primary thing he did for me was, let me bounce some ideas off of him, give me some feedback on my documents I was using to apply to jobs. That probably helped me land my externship, and we can extrapolate out from there. It was a really short-term thing. It was feedback that I was already getting from some other people, but it gave me a new perspective on it. 

[00:22:16] DS: Sure, wow. That's great advice, too, to think of it, as potential short-term mentorships that you don't have to be, you're not married to this person, right? You don't have to be stuck in this committed relationship for the rest of your life and so to see opportunities like that, to make professional connections. There's a couple more meta points about mentorship, I want to get to, but I think that leads me to a really important question. I wanted to ask you about seeking mentors. 

For those listening, who might find themselves to be a little bit more uncomfortable approaching people to start relationships, whether that's networking, or something a mentorship, which feels a little bit more personal and you're making rethink Ð I was going to say long term, but of course, I guess that's not necessarily the case, right? We can have different kinds of mentorships or different kinds of situations. What advice would you have for those people who struggle to engage in these kinds of conversations that are about professional relationships?

[00:23:14] JRD: One of the biggest things It reminds me a little bit about when I'm talking to especially undergraduate students about looking for AOD programs and things that way. They're nervous about how to get started. One of the things I always remind them is, it feels super cool when someone tells you, ÒHey, I want to be you when I grow up.Ó I don't think every mentorship has to have that strong connection at its core, but I do think it's good for us to recognize as people seeking mentorship, that there's a little bit of a contact high, somebody gets when you reach out and you're like, ÒHey, you're really impressive. I would like to learn things from you.Ó That feels good to hear, right? There's an ego boost. 

[00:23:58] DS: Absolutely. 

[00:23:59] JRD: That's not the whole mentorship relationship on its own, right? We have to have a thing to say after that. I think that a lot of the time people hype these things up as, oh, gosh, this person is going to be so busy, they're not going to have time for this, this is going to be inconvenient. At the worst case, what you've done is give them a really nice compliment. Then next time you talk to them or run into them or have something else. That's a foundation that you've laid for that. I don't know of anyone who has reached out to say, ÒHey, I really admire you and would appreciate getting to talk to you a little bit more about this thing.Ó And has been completely shut down and the responses I never want to hear from you again like lose my number. I doubt you will be the first and even if you are that person would probably not have made a good mentor or is having a really bad day.

[00:24:51] DS: Absolutely.

[00:24:52] JRD: ItÕs okay.

[00:24:55] DS: That is really reassuring. I think that's a great perspective on how to approach the conversation. It can be very mild flattery, but I can definitely see how that can lead to a great - the start of a great relationship. That is, I mean, I can just say from personal experience, the people that I've sought out as mentors were people that I did want to follow their career path in some way or they had an interest in audiology that I saw them as much more of an expert in than myself, and I wanted to learn from them. Starting the relationship from a place of, wow, you are so good at XYZ, or you have done so well, with XYZ. I want to do that too. Can you show me how to do those things? I do think that's a really great way to open up the conversation. I think that makes a lot of sense. 

Actually, I mean, I guess this is back to the meta, but it leads in from that. Now you've started this relationship with your mentor, but you mentioned the circle or the cycle of mentorship where I guess you go into it as the mentee, and then at some point, you become a mentor yourself. That's how I'm interpreting the name off the top of my head, but I don't actually know what it is. Can you break down that concept for us?

[00:25:58] JRD: Yeah. I think it is a looser concept than I would it to be maybe a little bit, but at its most foundational level, yeah. It's exactly what you described. Everyone that starts as a mentee becomes a mentor in some way at some points. That looks different for everyone. If you feel really nervous about an activity that you associate with mentorship, there are probably lots of other ways you can be a mentor or provide mentorship that don't involve that activity that makes you nervous, just to throw that out there for anyone who's worried to jump on the carousel, because it's going to come back around to them. 
The point being, when you set up to become mentored, you are positioning yourself, hopefully, to get better at the thing you're being mentored in. At a certain point of getting better, there's going to be someone that is less good at it than you are that would like to get better at it and who is likely to ask you for help doing that. That can be really local, it can be within your practice. So for example, I think about this in a basic way as there's a new piece of equipment, and you're getting really good at it and you're going in, you're getting training in it, then you come back and you train the other staff there. That's like a microcosm of the cycle of mentorship. I wouldn't necessarily call them that activity, mentorship, but it illustrates the idea. 

[00:27:23] DS: It's like the skills that you gained in that relationship are then coming to play in a different way in your job.

[00:27:30] JRD: Exactly. I think there's a second aspect of it to where I was alluding to this earlier, when you are getting mentored, you are giving things back and you're providing new information to the person that you are mentoring and at some point, the goal of most mentorship relationships, right, is that you become more on a level. So there's also a certain circle of mentorship, where by at some point you are going to be in a more peer save with that person and that mentorship is going to become a lot more bidirectional. There are going to be skills that you have that your former mentor does not have and you too, are going to be able to give back to each other. We don't often think about that as mentorship in the formal way. I think it's a fundamental part of those kinds of collegial relationships we build as a part of mentorship, where we get good at things and we establish ourselves. Then we are able to give back those things that we have gotten good at.

[00:28:29] DS: That makes sense. That makes sense. I think it's challenging to imagine when you're currently in the middle of a mentorship relationship. It's hard to imagine that one day you're going to have that dynamic with the person who's been guiding you and teaching you and answering your questions and all that stuff. I think you're right. I mean, it makes sense that it's a natural next step for these partnerships to lead to a point that are more collegial and able to contribute back and forth. I'm hoping we're going to and maybe this is a good time, hoping we'll talk a little bit about some of our personal mentorship journeys. 

It's so funny, we're having this conversation, because I can feel that in one of my closest mentorship relationships happening in the last few weeks or so, where she has been asking me a few questions and I'm like, ÒWait a minute. I asked you these questions. It's not the other way around. You shouldn't be asking me anything yet.Ó I do have new insights now in ways that I can contribute to that conversation. I don't know at all. She still certainly knows more than I do, but there's ways that the work that I'm doing, she sees that it's different from the work she's doing and there's ways I can contribute back to her and now in ways that she's poured into me so much these last several years. 

It's interesting that we're talking about this because I've never really thought that I'd ever hit this reached this point with my mentor. Now we're talking about it and I'm like, ÒOh, my gosh. We're right there. We're on the precipice of the collegial form of the cycle of mentorship.Ó I'm scared, I'm nervous. I don't want to come across. I know it all. What do you have to say for someone in my position where you're getting nervous about seeing yourself more, not even just in that more horizontal relationship, but also I've been working with more audiology students and seeing myself more as a mentor in that position. How do you talk someone off the proverbial ledge of, I'm so nervous about being a mentor now? I'm worried I don't know enough to be this person.

[00:30:16] JRD: I guess, this dips in a little bit to my personal experience with it. A cool part about this talk on mentorship that I gave with Gail and Ashley was actually, getting to hear from the perspective of my mentors, moments where they recognized our relationship changing in that way. That was a really cool part of that, because I don't think, especially Gail Whitelaw is someone that has been practicing audiology longer than I have been alive. I don't think at any point, I would be like, ÒOh, yes. Gail and I, peers, are on the same level and ready to go.Ó

[00:30:57] DS: Sure.

[00:30:58] JRD: It was very neat, because things that I had not ever really recognized as like, ÒOh, these are things that I am giving to Gail.Ó So much as, ÒOh, yeah. We have lots of these long chats.Ó When I was in grad school, I took a lot of coursework on teaching and pedagogy and how to design good classes. I would often talk about that with Gail, while we were going through, and I was designing a new class I was going to teach, or whatever it might be. I had never really thought anything of that.

It was interesting when we went to go give this talk, because Gail talked about how, despite the fact that we had this mentorship relationship established for years, she had been feeling the direction of that start to change and the orientation of that start to change. It was something that made her very happy. The reason I bring that up is that last point. There is a sense of satisfaction that I've heard from mentors, in watching people they have mentored, start to provide things back to them. Not because, oh, now I am reaping a benefit from this relationship that I've poured resources into, but because they are watching someone that they have poured into and invested in, start to be in a place where they are really developing and blossoming and becoming their own, whatever the thing is.

That was really cool to hear for me because it was obviously Ð I mean, it was very cool to hear because it was pretty nice. It was also very cool to hear because it was something where I think that not hearing that perspective from someone else, I would have felt really presumptuous to say like, ÒOh, yes. These are ways in which I have mentored these mentors of mine. Or, these are ways in which I have given back to them, and so I have earned this in some way.Ó

At a certain level, developing yourself as a new professional, I do think becomes a little bit an aspect of valuing what you are bringing to the table and recognizing that and acknowledging that you're not being presumptuous, or putting on airs when you say like, ÒOh, yeah. I have things to offer.Ó I know things that people that are more experienced than me might not know, because of my specialized experience, or because of this experience I have had.

[00:33:16] DS: That makes a lot of sense. I think that's a great story to illustrate that dynamic shift. Who benefits from the dynamic shift? Obviously, it's both of you all. I appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious, so it sounds like, Gail was a pretty amazing mentor for you. I'm curious. I mean, I'm sure you have other mentors, and we can talk about them, too. I'm curious how that relationship started. Or if you've in talking to other people in your work with this, if there's been examples of how mentees, because we talked about how mentees drive the relationship early on, how they started these mentorship connections, or if you have a specific example from one of yours.

[00:33:57] JRD: Yeah. I think for a lot of my mentorship relationships that have begun in person, I think it is felt easier, right? There feels to me, or has felt to me in the past to be an easier script for, I'm going to go to office hours, and I'm going to ask this professor a question, and I'm going to keep going back and annoying them till eventually, they keep answering my questions and this becomes an expectation, right?

I think that the harder ones to start are ones where there's not that in-person connection, right? How do you start a relationship with a professional that you admire, or that you want to learn something with, who doesn't have any idea who you are, and who you don't really know anything about? The thing I want to establish first is, those can be super valuable. I think we think about this a lot in research contexts. I do research 40 hours a week for my job, and so I think about this a lot.

We constantly are building collaborations and reaching out to strangers that do similar work and saying like, ÒHey, I read your paper. Do you want to work together on this thing?Ó ThereÕs an expectation on the research end of the house, that you're going to get that cold call, and it might be in your interest, or it might not be, to develop some relationship there.

I don't feel like we necessarily go in with that same expectation in a more clinical or social context. Ashley and I started working together because we got formally paired up by a program. Sometimes those go great and sometimes those go absolutely terribly. Ashley was not my first mentor in that program. She is the only one that I keep in touch with. When we're thinking about that, those are variable. Those are a little bit easier, right? When somebody else is doing the work for you, I don't really have to sell you on why or how to do that. When it comes to you being the one that has to reach out and say, ÒOkay. Hey, I'm interested in this,Ó I think the mistake I hear most often from people is, I don't know what to ask, right? Because it feels weird to be like, ÒHey, I think you're really cool and impressive, and hopefully nice. Would you like to mentor me?Ó I have never personally received that email. I'm not taking that as an offense on me not seeming cool and nice. But on that not being the most logical, or good feeling email to send.

I think that the thing that is easier in those situations is to go in expressing what you actually want, because we've really hit on in about 30 different ways, how mentorship looks different to different people. If you go and email someone out of the blue and say, ÒHey, do you want to mentor me?Ó They might have a completely different idea of what that means than I do. Now, I think I'm asking for a new BFF that I'm going to text at 4 a.m. when I'm panicking, and they are thinking that we're going to maybe get coffee next time we're both at a conference in person. Those are wildly different expectations and can result in some really not great feelings if they're never clarified.

Part of the reason I bring that up is actually when we were presenting on this, something that Gail really emphasized was just even setting up in mentorship relationships, how you're going to communicate can be so important. Something I had never really thought about was the idea of texting my mentors. I text my friends, I don't text people for professional reasons, really. Gail was talking about the fact that for some people that had really been the primary way that she had interacted with them. It was, ÒHey, I'm having this problem. I'm going to shoot you a text about it. Could we jump on the phone and talk about it for a couple of minutes? Or could we do this or that?Ó That was the primary set of interaction she had really, it was to help be a sounding board, or work through situations on an as needed basis. Then whatever else happened happened.

[00:37:52] DS: That's interesting because I feel like my closest mentor, that's our relationship is a text, phone call relationship. It started that way - she was a clinical supervisor of mine for a year. We became pretty close in that time. Then after I left, it just started with a few questions in my first job, and then from there, devolved into multiple times a week. ÒOh, my goodness. What would you do if this crazy thing happened? What is your advice here?Ó Now that's been ongoing for years now. I think it's really interesting, the different ways that these kinds of relationships can manifest.

It's really interesting, because there's a couple of professionals whose careers I've kept an eye on, because they do work that really interests me, or their career has had a trajectory that I think is really cool, and maybe something I want to try for, but I've truly never even considered just emailing them and saying, ÒHey, I think the trajectory of your career is really cool. Would you mind having a conversation with me about it?Ó It maybe it doesn't have to be something as formal as saying, ÒWould you be willing to be a mentor to me?Ó

Maybe it is, right? It sounds like, that that's not necessarily outside the realm of possibility and a lot of people would be very open to that. It also can just be as simple as striking up those kinds of conversations. I think it's cool because I do Ð part of me has always wondered like, ÒWhat's this divide between just networking and having a relationship with someone, like a collegiate relationship with other people? Collegiate, that's not the right word. Collegiate, college, collegial relationship with another professional, versus an actual mentorship where we have Ð there's trust here, I ask questions. It's not necessarily just a, let's get coffee from time to time kind of a thing. You've given me some really interesting things to stew on for myself and I'm really grateful for that. Thank you.

[00:39:39] JRD: Just to jump into that really quickly. Something that I think is worth emphasizing. I really like the way you kept using the word relationship there, because really, this is a type of relationship. I guess, the reason I want to drive this home a little bit is I think of it almost like dating relationships. Important caveat, please don't date your mentors. Mentors, please don't date your mentees. I would like to spell that out. This is a metaphor Ð

[00:40:06] DS: That is important.

[00:40:08] JRD: In the same way that you don't jump on Tinder and say like, ÒHey, do you want to be my boyfriend?Ó You're like, ÒHey, do you want to go on a date? Do you want to do this certain prescribed activity?Ó On a certain point, you reach a critical mass and you're like, ÒOkay, I think this would be a good relationship to have.Ó With a mentor, you probably don't want to jump out the gate and be like, ÒHi, would you to enter into a committed long-term relationship with me?Ó Instead, might want to say like, ÒHey, I'm working on a blog post. I would really like your opinion on this. Do you mind taking a look at it?Ó Or, ÒHey, I am interested in making a career change. I'd like to do something that looks more like what your life looks like right now. Do you have a couple of minutes to talk about that?Ó

Those are a lot more defined activities that are easy for someone to evaluate and say, yes or no. Am I interested in doing this? Than a really amorphous commitment that it's very easy to look at and think like, ÒOh, there's no way I'm going to have time for that.Ó

[00:41:07] DS: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I think all of that is starting to line up for me and starting to think about this in a really different light. I'm really grateful for you for explaining it in that way. We're getting close to the end of our time. I did want to ask, anytime we start to talk about a more specific topic like this, I do appreciate when our guests provide specific advice. Earlier, when we talked about the benefits, you gave us the mentor benefits that we don't really consider as often before the mentee. I would ask for listeners who are maybe seasoned clinicians, who haven't really engaged in any mentorship before, maybe students have approached them, or other clinicians have approached them, and they've just felt too busy to really invest in that kind of a relationship, or maybe they haven't even noticed that someone was trying in the first place to even start that a relationship. What advice you would have for those more seasoned clinicians, or mentors to be, who haven't really seen themselves as a mentor before, and how to maybe get involved in that kind of a relationship?

[00:42:10] JRD: I have a two-prong answer to that. I think one and a half of the prongs actually answer your question. Apologies in advance. One thing that I'd like to really emphasize is that we talked earlier about how mentors tend to burn out less than people who do not mentor others. An important caveat to that is your practice, wherever that is, and whatever that looks like, should provide you with time to do that. It is something that is really supported by research. This is true across disciplines. It's true in business, in other health care professions. Practices that have people that are providing mentorship make more money, and are more productive and successful on a lot of parameters than practices that don't.

Again, chicken and egg problem potentially, but rolling with that for a second. With that in mind, there are advantages to your practice. If you are mentoring students, it makes your practice look better. It makes me want to work there. It makes it easier to recruit people. You spend less time on HR and those efforts when you have fewer problems recruiting people and retaining people, because they like their co-workers, because they know their co-workers, because they have these established relationships, and they're happier and don't burn out, etc.

[00:43:38] DS: Sure.

[00:43:39] JRD: There are advantages to your practice, that you should advocate for making sure that at least a little bit of your time is protected to do those things if that's something you want to do.

[00:43:49] DS: That's great advice. Something I didn't even really consider is the time management aspect of it, and how you can feel prepared to engage in this thing if you actually have the dedicated time and mental capacity to do it. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, and now, let's flip it and let's say, students, early clinicians, or even seasoned clinicians who see a role model in someone they want to interact with and learn from. I mean, we've talked about this a good bit, including our own personal experiences and engaging and this kind of thing, but what advice would you have for them if there's anything more general, or more specific that we haven't really touched on yet?

[00:44:25] JRD: I think, one of the best pieces of advice I would have is that there's not a thing that is too big, or too small to be mentored on. I think a lot of the time, we think about mentorship as, ÒOh, I want to be able to give better presentations. I'm going to find someone who I think gives really good presentations and ask them to mentor me on that.Ó That's great. That is a goal for a lot of people and it's very reasonable. Lots of people like working with newer professionals and students and people that have less experience, because they get Ð if you're a good presenter, you get asked to give lots of talks and you don't always have time to do that. And so, bringing other people in helps make that more attainable.

There's also really small asks where it might even be as simple as, ÒI really want to get better at this soft skill that you seem to really excel at.Ó That could be to a more experienced co-worker, or less experienced co-worker, kind of having an idea of what you want to be mentored on and how you and your mentor work out to do that is the foundation of a lot of successful mentorship relationships that I've heard. Sometimes it works to have this really amorphous thing where it's like, ÒHey, I just think you're really cool. I want to learn everything I can from you. We're going to go back and forth, and we're going to bounce off and it's going to be great.Ó A lot of the times, it's something like that can grow out of this really specific, ÒHey, can you show me how to do this thing, and we'll work together on it?Ó This worked really well and now there's another thing that logically came up and we grow from there. Don't be afraid to ask about small things and don't assume that people don't have time. Let them make that decision for themselves, would be my advice to people seeking that out.

[00:46:14] DS: Yeah, that is really good advice. I do think that would probably be something that would keep people from even engaging in it in the first place is just being worried, ÒThey're the leader in this thing, in the field. They're not going to have time to talk to me about this.Ó It's just, you have no idea what their passion might be right now is training the next generation of people to work in that way. I think that's really good advice.

I'm curious, too, because I'm thinking about this more and more, and I'm just going to take the podcast hostage for a minute and just focus on myself here because you can just give me good advice. I feel like a lot of the mentorship relationships I've engaged with have all been the first one you mentioned, the more amorphous, relationship-oriented, just knowledge and I don't know, just professional guidance, but very generalized, right? Not hyper-specific to a certain need, or a career goal, or anything like that. You've really opened my eyes to how that's another great way that a mentorship can start. I think you gave a great example earlier when you talked about the email to Ð I forget the name of the gentleman who had the talk on landing a job.

[00:47:14] JRD: Gabe [inaudible 00:47:15].

[00:47:15] DS: Right. I'm curious in those kinds of relationships, which I guess, mentorships, I should say, which are, I guess, a little bit more formal than the like, ÒHey, I'll shoot you a text when I'm struggling with this thing. Also, but how's your life going?Ó Kind of a thing. These more specific mentorship relationships, what does that follow-up communication look like?

[00:47:35] JRD: Yeah, I think the real answer is super unsatisfactory, because it depends, right? It's going to look different for every person, in the same way that every other relationship we have varies, even the same relationship we have with different people looks different. Same way with mentorship. The way a mentorship relationship ends, or transitions is going to be different for different people. The way that I interact with Gail and the way that I interact with Ashley are completely different.

I really value both of those relationships. They are friendships a lot more than the mentor-mentee relationship that I had in the past. Both of those are relationships where I'm still getting a lot out of it. There are also previous mentors where we've started, we've had this core relationship. Now it's like a, we'll check back in as needed. Thank you so much. I feel like we both got what we needed out of this. This chapter has been put on pause, and I'll talk to you next time I've got a project that's coming up.

[00:48:42] DS: Sure. That was one of my questions actually was going to be like, how do you see mentorships usually ending? I think that's a good example, right? It doesn't always have to be this lifelong commitment to one another. It can sometimes just end the way it ends. It's not necessarily over, but something you can revisit and the relationship changes over time. I think, that's been one of the big things we've taken, that I've taken from this conversation is that weÕre back to it, the cycle, or the circle of a mentorship and how that plays out. I think that's a great example. It's a great visual for it. A reminder for people in the way that you engage in mentorship might not be exactly what you thought it was. It's certainly something that will change with time.

Speaking of time, we don't have very much left, but we have a little bit of time here. I'm dying to hear more about your ototoxicity research, and some of the work you've done there. I don't even know, I don't think we've really done an episode on ototoxicity. Maybe we'll have to bring you back if you're interested for a future episode to talk about something completely unrelated to mentorship. I guess, maybe not, because maybe you've got into this role, thanks to a mentorship relationship. With only 10 minutes or so to spare, do you want to share a little bit about the work you're doing in terms of ototoxicity research?

[00:49:54] JRD: I will absolutely tie this into mentorship. The reason I got into ototoxicity research is because I was taking my freshman intro to communication sciences and disorders class, and the person who would eventually become my Ph.D. advisor gave this guest lecture on ototoxicity. I just thought it was fascinating. It was so interesting to me, how drugs could affect hearing in a way that had nothing to do with their intended impacts. I, at the end of that guest lecture, walked up to the professor and said, ÒHey, do you need any help in your lab?Ó I started just an unpaid research assistant. Then I stuck around for nine years, and he could not get rid of me. That's how I got onto this trajectory. It was really that like, ÒHey, this seems really cool. Could I come learn more about it?Ó Beginning of a mentorship relationship.

Dr. Eric Bielefeld was that guest lecturer. He is one of my greatest mentors. I owe all kinds of things to him, as I'm sure 98% of former Ph.D. students will say about their mentors. He is fantastic and is the reason I use dude so much in my vocabulary now. 10 out of 10, would recommend. Very cool dude.

[00:51:12] DS: Mentors not only are shaping our knowledge and our career trajectories but a little bit of our vocabulary, too. I think there's some truth there.

[00:51:19] JRD: Exactly. There's a whole separate study to be done there. I did not see that in the literature when I was looking before.

[00:51:26] DS: We'll have to circle back to it. What are some of the things that you're looking into more specifically, or some of the more recent research you've been doing?

[00:51:34] JRD: Yeah. Most of my recent publications relate to my dissertation work that I did, which was on some models, essentially looking at how drugs used in the management of HIV and the prevention of HIV impact hearing. If mice are to be believed, it seems like, there's a decent risk of hearing loss associated with some of these drugs. My currently under review grant submission is trying to look at some folks who are HIV positive and receiving these drugs, and some folks who are HIV negative and receiving these drugs, and how those drugs are impacting their hearing over time, essentially.

[00:52:16] DS: That is fascinating. That's really, really interesting. Something I've never even considered when it comes to ototoxicity. I know we tend to think of the micins, the cisplatin, the more typical chemotherapy and antibiotics, but that's so interesting and something I hadn't considered before. I'm curious, the type of hearing loss you saw with mice, was that more of a gradual hearing loss? Were they more prone to sudden hearing losses? What changes did you see?

[00:52:43] JRD: These changes in adult mice tended to be the gradual hearing losses that you see with a lot of the milder ototoxins. Something that was a little bit interesting about these antiretrovirals is they seemed to not exclusively, or even primarily affect the high frequencies. I shouldn't dive too far into that, because I think that's a very early finding. I do want to give people the wrong idea.

A thing that was arguably more interesting; one of the major strategies, the World Health Organization, most public health organizations have goals to end HIV by 2030 or a similar near-term date. A major cornerstone of those plans is preventing new HIV infections primarily. There are two kinds of strategies that I looked at a lot. One is called pre-exposure prophylaxis, where people who are at higher risk for contracting HIV take typically daily pills in order to prevent HIV from taking hold in the body, so to speak.

The other major prevention pathway that I looked at is actually, mother to child transmission of HIV. Looking globally, just over half of people living with HIV in the world are women. About 70% of those women are of childbearing age. There is a pretty significant concern of an HIV-positive mother passing HIV on to her children during pregnancy and childbirth. Most public health organizations recommend the consistent use of anti-HIV drugs, essentially, to prevent that transmission. It's incredibly effective, which is very exciting.

The research in mice and mice are not people, seems to indicate that there is risk of hearing loss associated with that, or that's what my research seems to show. A future direction that I'd like to go with that is really looking at that in people. Something that's been done up to this point, has primarily been looking at how these children do on newborn hearing screenings. My research seems to indicate that actually, the outer hair cells don't seem to be affected. A lot of newborn hearing screenings that include OAEs would be unlikely to catch these hearing losses. That might be why in some of the literature, we don't see a lot of this risk. That requires a lot more work.

I want to be clear that these were not clinical studies, these were studies [inaudible 00:55:17] and in mice. But could indicate that there's a couple million children a year that are potentially at risk for hearing losses that we're not catching.

[00:55:28] DS: That's such an interesting topic. I'm so excited to hear more about your work in the future and to see where it takes you. Because that certainly sounds like something we need to be exploring more. Yeah, just understanding the mechanisms of this hearing loss, and preventing the risk, preventing it if we can, and understanding the risks of these medications is just so important. I'm really grateful you're doing that work. That's really, really cool. Of course, in the future, if you ever want to come Ð I was thinking about doing, something more ototoxicity, like a breakdown, because I do feel like that's something we don't Ð I know, I didn't have an entire course dedicated to that. It was a sub-section of a course, in grad school. Then now I don't even see too many.

I mean, I work primarily with cochlear implants. It's not too often that ototoxic drugs lead you all the way there, although it does happen sometimes. Something I feel like as a blind spot for me clinically and I want to learn more about. If you've got any recommendations for anybody, or if you want to come back yourself, of course, you're welcome to. I wanted to compliment you because you've got the podcasting voice locked down. I'm sure we're going to get some comments about you just coming to take over my job because you're just crushing the radio host voice. I'm loving it.

We are definitely coming up on the end of our time. I'm so grateful for everything you've shared. I'm curious, if there's any parting wisdom, whether it's just some advice you would give, whether it comes to mentorship, or just career-related things, anything else you want to share with our listeners.

[00:56:49] JRD: I guess, my parting advice for mentorship is really to shoot your shot. I think the biggest thing that prevents mentorship relationships from developing is not asking the question to start with. The worst thing somebody's going to say is not right now, usually for most folks, or nothing, because they missed the email in their inbox, if we're being very honest. Shoot that email out. Try it out.

For a lot of the time, I think both of us shared examples during this podcast about ways it worked out really well for us after shooting that shot. I encourage folks to do it. If you have specific questions about how to do it, you want to run a draft of your email by me, I'm happy to micro-mentor you. Mentorship emails. Shoot it my way.

[00:57:35] DS: That sounds like a new term to be coined and studied is the idea of micro-mentorship. I'm looking forward to the next paper thatÕs put out on micro-mentorship and your experiences with it. Thank you again, Riley. This has been an awesome conversation and one that I truly have learned so much from. I'm really grateful for you for taking the time. Now I feel like I have officially completed the trifecta, Riley, Ashley, and Gail being out on On The Ear. We've definitely got all of the best of the best on here. Thank you again so much for joining me.

[00:58:05] JRD: Thank you so much, Dakota. It's been great to talk to you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:58:09] DS: That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening, subscribing, and rating. This podcast is part of an audio course offered for continuing education through SpeechTherapyPD. Check out the website if you'd like to learn more about the CEU opportunities available for this episode, as well as archived episodes. Just head to speechtherapypd.com/ear. ThatÕs speechtherapypd.com/ear.

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