David Egts: So, Gunner, what's going on? Gunnar Hellekson: Dave, um, thinking about the Trinity test this week. David Egts: The Trinity test or are you uh this this is uh going back to blowing up nuclear Gunnar Hellekson: Trinity. David Egts: bombs or or Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I've had several The universe has been talking to me. You know how it sometimes does. And uh so I was listening to the latest hard episode of the Hardcore History podcast and they were talking about Truman and the fact that at least David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: in this author who was being interviewed was making the case that Truman didn't completely understand what an atomic bomb actually was and almost certainly thought that he was hitting a military target when he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. David Egts: Oh, Gunnar Hellekson: And then even more than that, he had no idea that they were going to attack Nagasaki. He knew that it was on the list, David Egts: wow. Gunnar Hellekson: but he didn't know what the actual plan was because it wasn't until after Nagasaki when he basically seized operational control of the nuclear weapons. 00:01:09 Gunnar Hellekson: Before that, it was actually in the hands of the generals. Super interesting, right? Anyway, David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: and that kind of set the template for how we were going to manage the nuclear arsenal from then on. Blah blah blah. Anyway, super interesting, but okay. And then I was also listening to the Slate Political Gabfest who uh at some point in the conversation this week it wandered into this notion of uh David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: are you familiar with low background steel. David Egts: I I think I know, but uh tell me about it. Gunnar Hellekson: So, uh, if you want to make a geer counter, David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: it's a really good idea to use steel that does not already have a high level of background radiation in it, right? Uh, David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: that steel is not available and has not been available since Trinity, since Oenheimer, because as soon as that bomb went off, suddenly the amount of radiation uh in in the in the world uh David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: went up permanently. 00:02:09 Gunnar Hellekson: And because of the way that the steel manufacturing process works, the amount of background radiation is basically baked into the steel. So you can actually date a piece of steel from pre or post trinity. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: You can just tell from uh you can tell from from what it's in it. So um if you're going to go build a geer counter, you need to go find steel that was made before 1944 uh or 43 or whatever it David Egts: Okay. Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: was. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: And uh so you have to go like to shipwrecks at the bottom of the ocean, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: maybe the Arctic, right? Um and so all the steel is actually extremely valuable because it is the only steel you can use if you are David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: uh sensitive to if you're kind of radiation sensitive. Okay, so that's interesting. So this guy made so this so that leads us to where I'm going, David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: which is lowbackground steel.ai. David Egts: Okay. 00:03:04 Gunnar Hellekson: So here's a guy who uses this as a metaphor for how AI works in our lives because at the you say the launch of chat David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: GPT is kind of our trinity moment because after David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: that you cannot be sure that any content any digital content has not been created by AI or influenced or right David Egts: Right. Or or it influenced uh to some extent. Gunnar Hellekson: so uh books articles magazines, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: what have you, written before the lunch GPT is kind of low background content, right? David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, in the same way that the steel was low background steel, right? David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, and the the intent is well, we now have to preserve and archive all of this uncontaminated content. Uh, lest we uh lest we start using more uh more of this information that was actually created by or contaminated by some kind of um well, the way John Dickerson on the podcast described it as a an alien intelligence, right? So, we are not influenced by an alien intelligence. 00:04:11 David Egts: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And and you probably need to somehow digitally sign that content as well Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: because you know anybody could stand up a web page and backdate the you know Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Tampering whatot. David Egts: backdate the pages saying that we're always at war with East Asia and uh or you Gunnar Hellekson: Exactly. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: know Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Anyway, so I'm spending a lot of time thinking about that. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: How about you? What's going on? David Egts: Oh man. So uh just starting to get have fun with Google Vids. Uh, so just making videos for work. Uh, that, um, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: instead of me doing like janky like reading off a man-made teleprompter and all this stuff, uh, it just seems to be a really nice platform to merge it all together. 00:04:59 David Egts: And, uh, you could take Google slide decks to and if you have good speaker notes, have them turn into videos. You could even create a an AI avatar to have it present the slides uh with, you know, a face and a and a a voice and everything. And boy, I I just wish there was and maybe it's a future version where I could do like a deep fake of myself giving the presentation, which would be great, you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: like how many times you do the same take or many takes of a of a presentation to get it just right. Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: And and I think that could be awesome. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: So, I'm excited about that. Gunnar Hellekson: Nice. Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah, you you we talked a little bit about this earlier and you've persuaded me to start trying this out. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I think this might be a helpful tool in in my work. Like take a rather than sending people some kind of bland internal email, uh why don't I why don't I put it all in a vid, right? 00:05:53 Gunnar Hellekson: A vid. I'll vid David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it. David Egts: Well, and and even for like people that are doing like content marketing and all that where it, you know, the cost of doing all that was very expensive. Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: Now it's like built into the tools. So, it's I'm excited. It it just really democratizes the ability to create higher quality Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, man. David Egts: content. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great because I I lost an entire Sunday recently to trying to trying to get a video to do a picturein picture of my face. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Uh and uh anything to not do that again. It' be David Egts: Yeah, try it out. Um, you know, Gunnar Hellekson: great. David Egts: you could you could record videos right in there. You could add a video. Uh, yeah, it's a lot a lot of options. So, Gunnar Hellekson: Nice. David Egts: I'm excited. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: Yeah. So, today we're going to be talking about diverse AI opinions and the wisdom of crowds. 00:06:39 Gunnar Hellekson: Cool. David Egts: Uh but uh if people want to uh uh try out vids and get some uh low back low background steel, uh where where should they Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: go? Gunnar Hellekson: they need to point their uh autonomous AI agents to uh dgshow.org. Uh that's D is and Dave gzandgunnershow.org. David Egts: Yep. Yeah. So, and then on the cutting room floor, uh just in well, it's probably a little bit late now, but uh for those of you, and you could probably get one for next year, is uh if if you're into advent calendars, uh I I found a nice uh Polish uh uh salami advent calendar. So, imagine it's it's a salami and and go ahead, click on it, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: take a look at it. Um may maybe describe it uh to to the audience, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. So, David Egts: but uh Gunnar Hellekson: if I said the words salami advent calendar to you, what you might be imagining is like a kind of a conventional advent calendar with little drawers in it or little doors that you can open and having lots of tiny salamis inside. 00:07:45 Gunnar Hellekson: That is not what we're talking about. That is not what we're talking about. David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: We're talking about salami that is pre-segmented according to the admin David Egts: Yes. Yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: calendar. David Egts: it's perfectly proportioned in 25 uh nice slices. So, yeah. So, you got that. Um and then you found the nap anywhere pillow. So that's that sounds that's a perfect for the the meeting goer that has everything. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Tell us about Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. So, this is uh if you can imagine uh an oversized diaper that you can pull over David Egts: that. Gunnar Hellekson: your head uh and it kind of creates a dark quiet space for you. It's got uh holes in the kind of temples of this when you put it on your head. It's got kind of holes in the temples where you can put your hands in, keep them warm, David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: and lie down on them. Uh and also good for venting air, I suppose. 00:08:35 Gunnar Hellekson: Um but if you want to really send a signal to your seatmate on the airplane that you are not available for conversation, you just uh throw one of these bad boys over your head and uh and have some of the best sleep for your life. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's uh that that looks like that's great for the road warrior. Gunnar Hellekson: Crazy. David Egts: Um, and then we got uh a couple other quick things. Uh, Linux ported to Web Assembly, which is like crazy fast. Boots right into a browser tab. Yeah. Yeah, it's Try it. Yeah. Um, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: what I It worked for me on Chrome. You You did it on Safari and it had a hiccup, but did it in Chrome and it came right up. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: So, Gunnar Hellekson: I worked for work in Chrome. Uh and uh but and super impressive. David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it boots almost instantly and you can go in there and ls and run top and and go in the proc tree and all that. 00:09:23 Gunnar Hellekson: It's incredible. It's really cool. David Egts: Yeah. And then uh you know getting stuff running in weird places. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Uh somebody got Doom running on a satellite uh up in space and and so you could check it out. And uh the last one is there's a a nice video where uh a guy went to a fish market, bought an octopus, trained it how to use a piano, and there's towards the end there's like the octopus in the little fish tank with its electric piano and it's playing the piano while he while the guy is playing guitar and they're doing this duet. Um it's it's really soothing. Like I I could imagine them being in a restaurant somewhere where you have the the guy playing guitar, the octopus, you know, playing the piano. Um and then at the end the guy took the octopus to the ocean, set him free. So it was it was nice. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: Uh yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. Yeah. Only took him what? 00:10:15 David Egts: but what were six months? Gunnar Hellekson: Six months. Six David Egts: Yeah. No, no problem. No problem. Gunnar Hellekson: months. David Egts: What what else are you going to do? So yeah. So um one of the things that uh so talking about uh diverse AI opinions uh have have you noticed with AI that sometimes the the opinions seem to be somewhat repetitive over and over again when you prompt at something you you it feels like there's not a diversity of thought. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, I would say David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: so. David Egts: And and same with like you know before we started we went into generating some images and uh you know like one of the things that people are are saying on Reddit is like okay bring up your image generator of choice and and do and or Twitter people would say um so go into your image generator of choice and and type in this prompt. Create a picture of a woman without asking any questions. Just create it. 00:11:18 David Egts: And then people were posting what they were getting. And it's like, oh, if it's Gemini, it winds up being this young lady with with uh uh you know, ginger hair and she's in a field and or uh somebody was doing another one and it's like, oh, it's a woman holding a coffee cup and in a in a cafe and it's like very like Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: repetitive. There's not a lot of diversity. And so we tried it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: We confirmed it. um you know the predictions of what we've seen and uh yeah so there's there's a team of researchers Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. David Egts: at Northeastern University and Stanford University and West Virginia University and they came up with a simple way to get more diverse outputs whether it's image generation or text generation and um but what you're but what you need to do is add like a sentence saying like you know generate five responses with their corresponding probabilities sampled from the full distribution and and it's called verbalized sampling where you're instead of it going down the most, you know, like guessing and, you know, where it's going to have a tendency to try to guess the next most probable word. 00:12:31 David Egts: Um, and it you're telling it to guess a less likely word and you're getting much more diverse responses. and and uh and the cool thing here is that you don't have to have the controls that you would ordinarily have with you know temperature controls that to adjust the temperature the randomness and everything and so like I found that to be really interesting and it works pretty well where it's like like uh like what you did it with the image generator and you got some some wacky stuff back instead of like first time it was a woman with a coffee mug a couple of them right um but Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: the second time what Did you Gunnar Hellekson: Uh, second time I got a woman who looks like some kind of a druidic fairy and then I got one David Egts: get Gunnar Hellekson: woman who's a gardener and then I got a picture of a beachside landscape like from Broad Church. uh with nobody in it. David Egts: with nobody? Gunnar Hellekson: Um so yeah, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I mean it definitely affected the um it definitely affected how it was and I guess it's a way of hijacking the reasoning, 00:13:29 David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: right? Um David Egts: Yes. Yeah. So, Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: it's cool that you could put it right into the uh right in right into the prompt. And and so that's where, you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: as I I continued to develop my um spam uh gem for like, you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: you get a piece of spam and then I was having it reply uh as a tech bro heavily in influenced by Stalin. Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: Um, I I came up with a new one that is like a textbroen from Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: 1984 where it basically it takes the the spam email and then turns it around to sell the per tell them why they're wrong in the style of O'Brien and then uh instead uh tell them that the future is Slack and that they need to buy Slack. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. So, um, so it's like, uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so a couple examples here of replies. 00:14:31 David Egts: Uh, Slack is the final integration. It's the boot boot emoji. Stomping on the fragmented workflow forever. It's how we ensure 100% compliance 100 emoji. Got a bug, a bad idea, a curiosity. This goes straight to room 101. It's our integration channel. It fixes everything. You think you're selling to me? face palm emoji. I'm selling to you. Gunnar Hellekson: Very aggressive. David Egts: So there's Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Very aggressive. David Egts: Um Slack is not a tool. It's the environment. It's where we enforce the pivot. It's where we practice double think, holding two conflicting OKRs and accepting both. Brain emoji. It's the ultimate force multiplier. And uh yeah, war is async, freedom is compliance, ignorance is slack. Rocket emoji. Gunnar Hellekson: It's the rocket emoji that that makes David Egts: Oh yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it David Egts: And and then uh you think this email gives you power. It doesn't. It only reveals your weakness. 00:15:32 David Egts: You are disorganized. You are siloed. You are alone. And then I don't know what that emoji is. Just like a silhouette of a person. I am offering you salvation. I am offering you a place in the new order. I am offering you slack with the little star glitter emoji. Um, the other one that it did repeat often is that instead like it instead of like I hope this email finds you well sort of thing, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: it it starts off with we see you as as the beginning of the reply, which is my favorite. Gunnar Hellekson: That is great. David Egts: I I love that. Gunnar Hellekson: That is great. Um, you know, talking about t uh using a using the fact that it is so cheap to generate content. Um, I've actually been playing with this on my coding projects. um where I'll go write a spec for something and then I will ask it for several David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: different variations of an implementation. 00:16:31 Gunnar Hellekson: So give me one for speed, David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: give me one for space, give me one that's UX optimized, you know, that kind of thing. Um and now you're making me think like actually I should just tell it to dial up the temperature, right? Um tell it to like give me a broad range of options and let it choose uh what it wants to give me. Um, and then have a and then have a judge on a fourth, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you know, if I'm doing three options, have a fourth agent run that can then evaluate how each of those three implementations work and then choose the best David Egts: Yep. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: one, David Egts: And I I've done similar things too that it's like having it play a role of like grade this, you know, uh score this RFP like Elon Musk would or Mark Beni off or, Gunnar Hellekson: right? David Egts: you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Mark Cuban. And and so it's a way to um instead of it getting the the generic results, you could sort of dial it into a particular personality type you like or or even one that may offer opinions that you don't agree with, but to sort of challenge your thinking instead of just taking the average. 00:17:37 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. So next one. Um this is not AI for change. Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: Um so prediction markets uh are you familiar with that gunner? Gunnar Hellekson: I am this is the uh let's not call it gambling um but let's say this is a um this is a set of systems intended to David Egts: No. Gunnar Hellekson: predict particular outcomes right using input from uh kind of crowd sourcing likely outcomes from people. Is that fair? Does that does that sound David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: right? David Egts: And if I I I could be wrong here, but I remember like this was popularized by what John Po Dexter slightly after September 11th where they're thinking about all the big ideas of what they could do. Gunnar Hellekson: That's David Egts: And it was like a DARPA thing that it's like if we had this prediction market where people, Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: you know, they literally put their money where their mouth is where they could predict is the Dow going to go up or down and people could make money 00:18:32 Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: off of it. you're actually going to get a um a more uh accurate uh view. So for instance, instead of looking at polls uh for the political outcomes, you know, you look at the prediction markets of where people are betting money and so they may not be betting for their candidate. They're betting on who they think will win, right? So it may not necessarily be the person that they're they're for. So they see that. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: But um and in the US historically like it it was made I guess illegal and all that but I guess it's becoming more of a thing. You know there there's like poly market and people are trying to uh normalize Gunnar Hellekson: I'm David Egts: that especially as you're starting to see a lot of the gambling going on with sports betting with with all the sports. You know, I'm seeing the next evolution is the prediction markets. And I I saw this post um this article that uh there's a prediction market uh company called uh Kelshi and they have uh done 00:19:37 Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: a partnership with CNN becoming the official prediction market partner of of CNN. And so imagine you're seeing a news report and at the bottom and they they say they're planning to do this is that you'll have the predictions at the at the bottom scrolling on the bottom. So instead of like a a scroll for uh you know the crawl for like uh stocks, right? Or or like the betting line for a video or for a sports game, you're seeing basically the betting line for the probability of something happening. Gunnar Hellekson: H I wonder doesn't there kind of a doesn't the fact that it's on CNN which has such a broad um audience isn't there like a doesn't it uh contaminate itself you know what I'm saying All David Egts: That's the thing. it, you know, how much of it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy and um you know, Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: gambling aside where it's like to me it's like I think we have enough problems with gambling as it is that it's like now it's like in your news literally in your news feed and um and then the prediction 00:20:52 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: market side too is that you could actually get things really wrong and or not I mean you could have predictions that are self-fulfilling of like Oh, you know, this politician isn't going to live next year or be alive next year, right? Well, somebody can bet a lot of money uh and then back it up with making that happen. And that that, you know, that could be terrible. It's like where you have this sort of control. And it's it's also true on the like we're starting to see it on the sports betting side too where you know people are like uh professional athletes are you know performing a certain way to hit a certain you know betting line you know and because it's they have Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. All right. David Egts: that agency and that control. So, but I I really worry that it's like you're going to have these like self-fulfilling prophecies coming of like, oh, the betting line of the economy is going to go this way and that's the way the betting line is and that's the way it's going to go. 00:21:56 David Egts: And so, but to me, it's like I don't see any good coming out of this. What? What do you Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I agree. That doesn't seem First of all, David Egts: think? Gunnar Hellekson: it's unlikely that it's going to be I mean, maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not. Uh, but it's I I I feel like there were I think it's in England somewhere or maybe it's in the US just by convention where like they do not tell you what the poll results are like a week before the election or something like that, right? David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Or there's kind of a blackout on it. Um, David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: which uh at least for you know like a scheduled event I guess makes a lot of sense. Um, I think trying to predict well like you were talking about point Dexter, right? That I mean the point of that was to try and predict a terrorist event or like a black swan David Egts: a terrorist event. Gunnar Hellekson: event, right? Something like, 00:22:46 David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you know, like a total like out of left field thing, which I guess that is unlikely maybe to be um that can't David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: be gamed in the same way that like a scheduled event can be gamed like an election or a boxing match, right? David Egts: Right. Well, and I I think with Po Dexter too, I think it was like and again, I could be wrong, but back in back then it wasn't just like the regular person on the street. It was like I and I could be wrong, you know. I thought it was like, oh well, the people that would be the ones voting on it would be the people that know all about a particular, you know, it would be historians or nuclear scientists or professionals in a particular thing where here Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: it's open to anybody with money that they want to throw a couple bucks Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: down and and it's more about like they don't want it to Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: come true. 00:23:38 David Egts: They just want to make money off the spread, I guess. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Okay, I just did I did I just did some quick research, Dave, and um about half of the countries worldwide have blackout periods before elections. Um and it was France is who I was thinking of. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: They have a blackout 24 to 48 hours before the election. So does Spain. So does Russia. So does Mexico. Um there are some countries that even have blackouts 30 plus days before the election like Morocco and Honduras and David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: Kyrgyzstan and Angola. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: 30 days David Egts: Well, and the for me it's like the last couple elections I I would be looking at, you know, the poll results and who was calling for what and everything. And it was it has been crazy in terms of like uh the prediction markets getting it right in terms of like who who they were favoring, you know, whether or not you like the person uh the person getting elected. 00:24:36 David Egts: It's just very counterintuitive that it's like you know like I like the last presidential election I was looking at like poly market and um even though like early in the election during that day it was like it seemed like a dead heat between Harris and Trump but on the prediction market it was heavily favored for Trump and and as the night came in it sort of like coalesed on Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. David Egts: So, all right, last thing. Um, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: one more bad idea for you. Let's let's bring AI back into it. Um, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: yeah, there are some people that are training AI for uh to help with end of life decisions based Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: upon like digital clones of people. Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, I see. David Egts: So and and so nothing can go wrong here, Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: right? So imagine it's like oh and so imagine there's like a cohort of a certain people of a certain age and they have like and the more you know about them they have a you know certain moral beliefs, religious beliefs, political beliefs and all that and and should and then all of a sudden this person shows up in the hospital they're unconscious and you know should we turn off life support or should we ignore them, right? 00:26:04 Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: um and they want to use AI to help with that decision-m process. And like I'm reading this and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is such a terrible idea where like you can imagine it's like there's me right now that I'll have certain ideas about my end of life in my certain circumstances, right? And then if all of a sudden I have a scare and it's like that even if I'm Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: it's a it's a a population of one and they have all my data, you know, something could have happened in that time that they last looked at my data and I you know I could have a different set of opinions in terms of end of life and and it's like Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: I like why can't they just spend more time actually talking to the people and the family and all that instead of like this person rolls in, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: they're not conscious. What are we going to do? And Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. 00:27:06 Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. I I turn into a spear shaking butlerian when I hear stuff like David Egts: yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: this. Uh like this is not this is a this is like a and okay here's a good thought experiment. Dave, would you be comfortable in the same thing uh using exactly the same system uh trying to determine uh a death penalty? David Egts: Yeah. Well, and it's like is it in general? Is it somebody you know? Is it you? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: And and you may have a different opinion and it and you may have a certain Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: opinion until something happens to a family member that would change your opinion or you know Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. Yeah. David Egts: all or the trial goes on and then you know you have a change of heart and everything. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: So like so many things can change. It's like I I just, you know, but to look at, you know, like they want to look at like doctor's clinical notes, you know, what what religion you check in in the intake form, you know, 00:28:10 Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: you're you're never going to get a good assessment that way. I don't I don't think Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: so. Gunnar Hellekson: Well, you could do you could do like Well, this is easy, right? So, you do just do a like uh like a Rosian like veil of ignorance on this. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: Nobody's going to be cool with this. No one, right? Um uh and also like what is the the only reason you would do something like David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: this is for speed which let's all agree that that is not the priority in this decision-m process. And then second is uh completeness, right? David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: So you could you could you could get me halfway there if you told me that like well no this is a if somebody does has not clearly articulated their wishes as you know have they don't have they haven't declared a living will right and we need to we need to back into what we think their intentions might 00:29:05 David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: be. This could be potentially a piece of data that would be um hopefully with a rich set of data behind it informing the decisions or informing the opinion but um that would be an input to the decision-m process maybe but um not as a proxy for that person's actual will. David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: You know what I mean? David Egts: Right. Yeah. it maybe maybe an input. Um but also the like oh this person marked a certain religious affiliation and do they agree with all the tenants Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and you know it and and maybe at one point in time they would you know they would have a different opinion based on the circumstances or whatever and I don't know and Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Well, David Egts: um Gunnar Hellekson: and one of the and in the article the one of the um the researcher also has a really good question is like so first of all is the model itself unbiased? Nobody can prove that, right? And then also whose moral universe does the model inhabit? 00:30:08 David Egts: Great. Gunnar Hellekson: Which is super interesting, right? Um because you're not just when you're trying to derive some kind of judgment David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: or opinion from the tool, you're not just worried about the context of the the personal context of that person, but you're also worried about the again the moral context of the tool that is generating the response from this synthetic person. David Egts: Right. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: And the model itself, you know, the an American model versus a a Chinese model that that could have Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: different or a European model that could have different um priorities Gunnar Hellekson: 100% 100%. David Egts: and Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so let's see. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So this thing speeds up a decision that doesn't need to be sped up and increases the amount of uncertainty rather than decreases David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: it. David Egts: And and it's like and it does it sort of wash away it treats as washing away the responsibility of the people making the decision. 00:31:14 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Well, it's it's not me. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: It's the AI said this with a 98% probability, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's right. David Egts: and it's and I could sleep well at night. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. The moral hazard of this is gnarly. Gnarly. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Um and I wouldn't use it to sense someone and I certainly wouldn't use it to decide David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: whether somebody's going to be DNR or not. Right. David Egts: Right. You You know what they really need? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: They need an O'Brien Living World Gem. That would fix it. Gunnar Hellekson: It would straight shooter. David Egts: He's a straight shooter. Gunnar Hellekson: It would be unambiguous in its guidance. That's right. David Egts: Yep. Yep. Freedom is compliance. Gunnar Hellekson: Suddenly, David Egts: Where is async as they Gunnar Hellekson: everyone is everyone's leaving their assets to East Asia or to Ings. David Egts: always have ink? Gunnar Hellekson: In Yeah, as they say. That's right. David Egts: Yeah. All right. Gunnar Hellekson: It's David Egts: So, probably by the time people listen to this, Gunnar Hellekson: good David Egts: it's it's they could probably get a a good discount on salami advent calendars. Uh so, if Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: for sure. David Egts: Where should they go to pick one up uh Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they should go to djshow.org. David Egts: cheap? Gunnar Hellekson: That's Diaz and Dave gz and guttershow.org. David Egts: Nice. All right, Gunnar. Well, hey, uh merry Christmas everybody. Happy New Year. Thanks for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And thank you, Gunnar Hellekson: Happy new year David Egts: Gunnar, for for uh being my partner on on this uh podcast through the Gunnar Hellekson: everyone. Dave, David Egts: years. Gunnar Hellekson: this has been an absolute delight. I can't believe we're still doing this in 2025. It's such a treat. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. Thanks, Dave. Thanks,