This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. Gunnar Hellekson: David X. It's been a minute. David Egts: It's like a spring in Ohio already. I got to get my motorcycle out. I can't wait. Gunnar Hellekson: I was thinking about as I was driving around Texas this weekend and was past several times by folks on very fast motorcycles being driven unsafely. You're right. David Egts: Yeah, wasn't me? Gunnar Hellekson: And I thought of how disapproving you might have been if you saw this… David Egts: Yeah. yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: if you saw these motorcyclists I noticed that there were several touring bikes as well and some of them had. Very rectangular lock boxes on the back and then other folks had something more aerodynamic a little more streamlined, in the three bag configuration one on top to end this up. David Egts: yeah, full dresser. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Bull dresser, I knew there must have been a word for that. Do you have a preference on I like the old school kind of locker box situation. I saw the value in that and then I also saw the streamlining. Gunnar Hellekson: Kind of more fuel efficient kind of storage boxes. do you have a preference? David Egts: naked David Egts: Yeah. … Gunnar Hellekson: Talking about the motorcycle now, we're talking about the motorcycle. David Egts: the motorcycle. Yeah. No. Yeah, no to me. I don't have any bags. It's like I like the naked look the motorcycle like to and I'm not going Across country and so I don't get the saddle bags or the full dresser and all that stuff and to me it's like if I did that I would but if I do go for usually I'll do day trips. and I'm home at night, so I'm not really packing anything. and… Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: if I went to visit my mom or something, I would have a backpack and that's fine. It It gets me back and everything But yeah, I sort of like having the bike look for itself instead of having the functionality of a utility behind it. Gunnar Hellekson: Right, right. Yeah, I can appreciate that. I can appreciate yeah,… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: that's good. David Egts: No, That's awesome to see that out there and Yeah, what's going on with you? Gunnar Hellekson: What's it there's a ton of stuff going on right now getting excited for Red Hat Summit pumped up we're in the last I think 19 days before that. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And so that's mostly what I'm about right now. Although I did find time last night to enjoy. And I'm using that we're generously The Fallout series that just started on Amazon. So this is based on the video game, which I've never played before in my life. I did play a derivative game, which is called fallout shelter. Which is like a town building game,… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: we have to build your underground vaults and all with all your Vault dwellers and stuff so I'm kind of through that. I know a little bit of the lore, but it was clear in watching the show. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I've seen two episodes so far that they're doing a ton of fan service and they seem to be treating the lower reverently. So that's nice. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And a really interesting and fun world, I mean this game has been around for 20 years, right? So they've been building lore on this thing the mythology around it for 20 years. And so there's a bunch of fun stuff in there. The only thing I would caution folks against definitely go see Enjoy it. It's on Amazon Prime I think but Just be aware that it is egregiously Glory. super gory so much so that I believe I will be finishing this series on my… David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: if you know what I mean. David Egts: Okay. So it's sort of worsen Walking Dead with the crowbars and… Gunnar Hellekson: Worse way worse. David Egts: yeah. Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, even I've seen a ton of great stuff in my life, and I was shocked. So a little bit too bad… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: because it does seem like a fun story. It's like a good setup. You got a Man comes to town and leaves town all Lots of good subplots in here kind of overshadowed by the amount of human entrails In the show. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: It's a little bit. Yeah. David Egts: do you think it's necessary would you enjoy it more if there's less of it? Gunnar Hellekson: I would enjoy more if there was less of it. Yeah. It was too much in my opinion. David Egts: Yeah. Interesting. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah to me. There's a limit right? It does it move the story forward and all that? And there are some of those things with The Walking Dead that it was like, it's a little too much, Gunnar Hellekson: That's Yeah, and It was cartoonish. and… 00:05:00 David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which I kind of get because the rest of the show is kind of cartoonish, but it took you out of the narrative it took you out of the story. I made you realize The illusion was broken as a result. For that reason anyway, but if you go in there knowing that that's what's gonna happen. maybe you could also do it through. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. yeah, so yeah on my end. So you are an airpods man yourself Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, so currently I'm a Pro Beats Pro… David Egts: Beats Gunnar Hellekson: because it's good for the running, but yeah,… David Egts: okay. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I've got at any given time. There's probably several pairs of Apple airpods stirring around the house For the whole family,… David Egts: Yeah. because I Gunnar Hellekson: . David Egts: I dabbled a little bit with the noise cancellation, with a big ones right that the big earphones and it's okay and everything and then I had but for me, it wasn't very functional because you're walking around I don't want to walk around outside with the big cans on my ears, And so I would do The pixel buds which didn't do noise cancellation, but it would actually turn the volume up if it would be a noisy environment. It actually turned the volume up which is kind of cool like faux noise cancellation, I guess. And then in it, but it started acting up so it's like all right. I'll just let me try the new ones that are on sale the pixel buds Pro and I got a hold of them. And then it's like I put them in my ears. David Egts: And I'm like, That's kind of interesting and then it's like I hear and then nothing. I'm like,… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: my go I hear absolutely it's I didn't think that earbuds. Would be so noise canceling, I would think something would be getting through and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: it's like holy crap. This is amazing and it's almost like I don't know as an introvert it's like you want your little Fortress of Solitude and you want to just have some quiet time for yourself. It's like you pop those in and… Gunnar Hellekson: sure. David Egts: it's like you're extracted from reality of your surroundings and everything. It's just amazing. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow, is it too much? David Egts: no, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Two … Gunnar Hellekson: what I mean? Because I find it disorienting if you're fully cut off, right? David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… David Egts: and that's the thing. I learned that it's in the home office or whatever. That's great. But it's like if you're walking around outside or walking the dog, it's a great way to get run over by a car. with all the noise cancellation and it's your cross street you hear nothing. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. David Egts: So I guess you could switch the moods easily to there's an ambient mode. That'll do the sound pass through a little bit more and all that and it's But yeah, I can't get enough of the noise cancellation. It's just wonderful. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. it's having a good set of head. you're goggles that I could be your kind of daily drivers. David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's important. David Egts: Yeah. … Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. David Egts: I think how much we're on video calls all day long. It's like you want them to sound good. It's like a good pair of shoes, right? … Gunnar Hellekson: exactly Yeah. David Egts: it's like You're wearing them all day long. You want them to be comfortable. Do you want them to perform and everything? it's something, Life's too short to go cheap on that, Gunnar Hellekson: 100% agree. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: yeah, and then meanwhile it remember we talked about the Google Gemini Advance where you pay up for all the fancy AI. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And I guess they finally sorted out all the overlapping branding problems. I don't know why Google can never figure this out but they always have this anyway, it's that there was that Yeah,… David Egts: Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: okay. Yeah,… David Egts: right. yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Google Pro or advanced. David Egts: Right Crow is the free version and an advanced is when you pay for and I agree. It's like they're terrible with all the naming but so I guess there's Google Gemini which is the brand and then there's a free version and then you could pay up for Gemini Advanced and… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: then that's a different model and then there's the pro model that is in the free version, but it's confusing. since we last talk You… 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: I don't know if you saw in the Press about how the Google was getting in trouble for. being overly politically correct with their image generation. Gunnar Hellekson: yes. Yeah, I heard about this. Yeah. David Egts: So they just turned it off completely. and so it's like you could do hey I want to do. David Egts: A landscape or whatever. Yeah, it'll do landscape images all day long, but the moment it's like there's a person in it. It's I can't do that. and even if it's innocuous or whatever and while it's in and it's the same with the text generation too, if it's anything remotely political imagine it's like, I'm a High school student doing a report on the election coming up this year and I want to know the pros and cons are the platforms of each candidate. Right? And I want to study that it'll be like now I can't help you with that… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: because and it's very much like that AI model that we talked about in one of the previous episodes. It was so safe. That was not useful. this is like Art or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: life imitating art. It's so not useful unless you're talking about something just totally plain, right But in the meantime, it's like you could Google has safe search and you turn safe search off and everything. So I don't know why they don't have that or if they're are they protecting? but the customer from getting something that they don't want or they protecting Society to prevent a customer from doing a bad thing. You know what? I mean? are they having the customer could use? That the AI to generate propaganda or fake news or whatever and I'm not sure what they're trying to do. but do you have a take on that? Where should the safety valves? be placed? Gunnar Hellekson: So I think so. Here's one. I don't have an answer, but I do have a frame for this that I think might be helpful, which it's not about the AI doing something badly. Is that one of the reasons why they pulled the feature is because it prevented the customer from doing the right thing. Which is different than protecting them from doing the wrong thing, you… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: what I mean? Because the actual bug for example was you could explicitly ask for a particular ethnicity in an image of a person and… David Egts: Yes. Right, right. Gunnar Hellekson: then not get it, and so which is a different thing than It's wrong, but wrong in a different way than for example, always producing the same at this, right? and I think Gunnar Hellekson: So it's less about so that there's one category of things you can do to the kind of like I said before prevent a customer from doing the Thing right or building in a bias or whatever and then there's another one which is the thing literally doesn't do what the customer asked it to do, right? and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I think if that tool Gunnar Hellekson: Allowed a customer to request a particular ethnicity and get back that ethnicity. I'm not sure that they would interpret that as a book. You… David Egts: Mm-hmm Gunnar Hellekson: I don't get the impression that they're trying to be. Nannies about it. As much as they overcorrected for the bias in the first category and at a breaking it in the second category, so make sense. David Egts: Yeah, do you think that one way to fix it would be? It's like hey, give me a picture of a group of Vikings. and… Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: from Hundreds of years ago, right and by default it would generate a culturally diverse group of Vikings which isn't necessarily reflective of the way. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: We've seen it happen,… David Egts: right and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: But you would think so one way would be it's maybe it could be diverse by default and then you could change it to say it. No, not really. I'd rarely like it this way or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: you could say hey, give me a Group of doctors or whatever and it would be like, hey, here's a sample image. Do you want to go with this would you like something a little bit more diverse? It's not all white men. and so instead of I can't do this or I won't do this. 00:15:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. I think they're getting some more important. So those are two different problems. so the first is something that is Probably historically wrong, show me an image or George Washington and then it gives you somebody who with the agent descent, Okay. David Egts: Okay, right. Gunnar Hellekson: That's wrong. there's just straight wrong, There's no value judgment to be made here. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's just not correct historically right… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: which I imagine has to be fiendishly difficult to train for you know what I mean? David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: It requires a whole Corpus of background and knowledge to know what the right answer might be and I suspect that that's kind of difficult, but that's okay Gunnar Hellekson: And I think but then you ask for a list of doctors. So the hypothetical you have which is like I asked for a set of doctors and shows me all creations that you say I want it more diverse. already there are some moral judgments being made there, which is the presumption is that it is going to be a set of white doctors and then you have to and then it is going to be A second option right to have a diverse group of doctors when in fact, we know that in the world the set of doctors is quite diverse to start with right and… David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: so the presumptive image. being actually inaccurate is that is a different problem. You said I mean David Egts: it's actually two separate sets of problems that one is Wrong, they're both wrong in different ways. No. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's Yeah, that's correct. And I'm not sure that Gemini knows at this point why those two things are different or the way in which they should be different right? They were trying to solve the second problem with this with trying to create these diverse images and in the process broke the first cat broke the first category, So I mean I can see what this was not an easy fix. because the other thing is like David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you're trying to train this thing. Gunnar Hellekson: And it's dumb. It's just a computer right? it's just a rock that thinks and… David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: so you have to do well known in this case diversity image of a diverse set of people is correct and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: accurate and all the rest of it but when I ask for George Washington almost every time I'm gonna expect it to be Caucasian, right and… David Egts: right and Gunnar Hellekson: knowing the difference between those two things is that it seems like that is a difficult thing to train for as apparently right because Google has a bunch of very smart people who are working on this problem and they couldn't get it, right. I think the sin that they had right is. David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Not realizing how broken it was when they shipped it. right David Egts: But this is mid journey and everybody else having the same problem. Gunnar Hellekson: I don't know. I have not been following it that closely. I'm not… David Egts: All right. Gunnar Hellekson: but I think what it ends up creating is We got kind of a house situation here right where it's like, you got to go train the thing to do the thing that you want and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: the real question is what is it that you want And so I think AIS I think it's interesting and… David Egts: All right. Gunnar Hellekson: it's forcing us to be helpfully introspective about exactly what our biases are and where we feel like we should be intervening on the biases and where we shouldn't right. David Egts: Yeah, and I wonder too there's the prompt that you give it. But how much are the prompt That You Don't See Google putting the thumb on the scale for the result that it thinks is the Feel from a societal standpoint the quote unquote rate result. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah,'s That's right. And I will wager I will put all the money in my pockets that you have different presumptions in different locations, So a set of presumptively correct answers are going to be different. If I do a particular query in India versus China United States versus Germany, right and David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Man, it's a hard problem click. Just speaking clinically about it in that as it is a difficult computational problem, right? Yeah. David Egts: Yep, no true. if you go and say hey, you're on the Indian version of Gemini or you're using it from that geography and you ask for a group of doctors. should it be tailored for that region? that it's Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, but first question, right do we Taylor by region? And if we do tailor my region in what way are we going to tailor it by region? Right it gets into a hornet's nest of problems. 00:20:00 David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And by the way, we're only talking about ethnicity because that's easy. David Egts: Yes. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Right and it's easy to know when that's wrong. But I mean, there's all kinds of cultural assumptions. And as you know, if you have an enviable job of training in AI you have to figure out what cultural assumptions you are going to build in which ones you're not going to build in and… David Egts: Mm- Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: which ones you are actively going to discourage. David Egts: And there's the cultural part and then there's also what country you're in. For what the political narrative that is allowable. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. David Egts: right Yeah,… David Egts: because I know that's like I saw was it Mistral it's like a French startup former Google people and the thought there is that or the premises that we need to have in a european-based large language model because we don't want the training and the thumbs on the scale based on a United States perspective and culture, We want to a European flavored one and you can imagine in China. They probably want to have one that is based on, the right opinions and politics and that would not diverge from what would be unacceptable there. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's and I'm sure I mentioned that on the podcast in the past the Pope. Paul people not somebody I invoke very often but the pope wrote laudato and in ladata he warns us about the effects of Technology on society and he has this great line that I think about often which is choices which we feel is choices, which may at first seem purely instrumental or in fact decisions about the world. We want to live in This example of how to train an AI. What a correctly trained AI looks like is a perfect example of this right? These are all just that seem instrumental, but they do in fact have an influence on culture and how people think and how people Gunnar Hellekson: present how the world is presented to people and there's a moral obligation that comes with that so shame on Google for releasing this thing in the first place, but good on them for shutting it down, right? David Egts: Yeah, yeah but they're still taking my money the app for something that's turned off. So it's like that kind of stinks, but Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, the Google is a long and storied history of shutting things down that we really like. David Egts: Yeah, world famous. Yeah. Yeah, Google podcast just went by the wayside just a little while ago. So yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: For example, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, speaking of podcasts. We have a great show lined up. yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: and we're not gonna be talking about AI after this or we'll see But let's see we're gonna be talking about printer cartridges with viruses. We're gonna talk about cryptography with psychedelics, and we're going to talk about drinking with baskets. Gunnar Hellekson: nice Gunnar Hellekson: fantastic David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… David Egts: so for people to get the link to the Fallout series and all that good stuff. Where should we send? Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, they need to go to dgshow.org. That's a DS and Dave. She is in Gunnar's show.org. David Egts: Yeah, Yeah, and then Cutting Room floor, so I said we weren't going to talk about AI but real quick that somebody remember we talked about a CPU somebody implemented gpt2 inside of an Excel spreadsheet. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's cursed that's cursed. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. and I guess the reason why somebody did it was for educational purposes to see how a Transformer actually does all the math and everything. So it's kind of cool,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. David Egts: Yeah, and then another thing is that there's a guy that created a dating app. Where the only person you could date in the dating app is the guy that wrote the app. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Love it be the change. You see in the world. That's what I say. David Egts: And so basically you install it and it's like you plug in your profile or whatever and then it's like you're presented with this guy and it's like you swipe left and you swear you swipe. Right? And you swipe left if you don't like them. and you might as well uninstall the app because you're sort of done and otherwise you could swipe right and keep the relationship going so you got that you try it out. David Egts: And then there's a reggaeton be gone. we haven't talked about internet of things in a while and raspberry pies and whatnot. 00:25:00 David Egts: So there's this guy imagine you have a neighbor in your apartment next door 9 am every day. He's blasting reggaeton on his Bluetooth speaker 9 am clockwork and you can either go across the hall and knock on his door and say please don't do that or… Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: you could build an AI device that can handle the situation and this guy did the ladder so he built and a device I think it's on a Raspberry Pi it will listen for audio. It'll diagnose whether that audio is reggaeton. and so it'll figure out if it's at genre of music. It will seek out that Bluetooth speaker and then create interference to disrupt it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, it's because first let us mean but also very very clever. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely an introvert. It's like I … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: he wants to put that effort into not as opposed to walk across the hall and have a difficult conversation. So Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: yeah, yeah and Okay, So, let's talk about difficult conversations. So there was the HP CEO. This is a little while ago, I think in January but CEO Enrique laures, there's the HP being criticized with it's like you have to buy the HP branded ink or it will not work with third party ink right and… Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: according to the CEO. It's actually for security reasons and not for money reasons. Gunnar Hellekson: Tell me more. David Egts: Yes, so he said on CNBC that we have seen that you can embed viruses in the cartridges and through the cartridge. The virus can go to the printer and then from the printer go to the network. Gunnar Hellekson: he's saying this in order to justify the DRM on their cartridges Okay. David Egts: It's correct. Yes. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: At any point did anyone suggest to him that maybe the fact of somebody being able to transmit a virus from the toner cartridge to the printer might actually be the problem. David Egts: Yeah, so it winds up that they added the DRM feature called Dynamic security back in 2016 but it wound up that there was some researcher in 2022 that actually figured out a way to make the virus thing actually happen. so basically it's like the solution was created in 2016 and an exploit was created to prove that it could possibly happen in 2022 and it winds up that there's a Serial interface between the cartridge and the printer that could trigger a buffer overflow and that buffer overflow would allow that hacker to give them the ability to inject code into the device it persists after the cartridges removed. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. and like you said and when I was enjoying the article, I'm thinking. Why don't you just fix a buffer overflow problem? And do you really need the DRM for this right? and why do you have to have? this communication with your Cartridge. is it to Telemetry on how much ink is left and stuff like that? And could that be more secure right? Yeah, so… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: and so whenever hpu first announced Dynamic Security in 2016, it claimed that the feature would deliver the best consumer experience and it would protect customers from cartridges that infringe on the hp's and electoral property. Gunnar Hellekson: Of course, that's right. David Egts: Very so thoughtful of them,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. David Egts: Yeah, and then the article talked about when people buy an HP printer, they consider it an investment, but HP thinks that when you buy a printer the company is investing in the customer. yes, and… Gunnar Hellekson: That's Yeah, good telling the prayers at a loss, right? 00:30:00 David Egts: Yeah, and so what he said the CEO said that this is something we announced a few years ago. And our goal was to reduce the number of what we call unprofitable customers because every time customer buys a printer it's an investment to us. We're investing in that customer and if that customer doesn't print enough or doesn't use our supplies, it's a bad investment. Gunnar Hellekson: He said the quiet part out loud. It is that's too bad. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: You're not supposed to read the stage directions, you know what I'm saying? Yes. David Egts: Right. Yeah. Yeah. so Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Good. David Egts: Yeah, so yeah, it's amazing. So that's what's going on there. And then have you ever heard of the term. psychedelic cryptography Gunnar Hellekson: I think I tried to write some psychedelic cryptography in college, but one bunch of I think it's probably a different definition than nothing. David Egts: Okay, maybe So they're these researchers. I guess that they've created a competition focused on psychedelic cryptography. Where they award cash prizes to artists who make videos and coded with hidden messages. That can most easily be deciphered by a person who's tripping on a psychedelic substance such as LSD i a waska or silicide and mushrooms. Gunnar Hellekson: What's the mechanism? How does that work? David Egts: So I guess you have Some sort of I guess trippy video clip that you look at and to the person that is sober it just looks like a Trippy video clip, but if you take the Psychedelic substance, it will allow you to actually see a hidden message inside of the trippy video clip. David Egts: so and I've never done any psychedelics ever. But I guess what will happen is there are these tracers that you would see trails of color and after images and taking advantage of that they're able to use that effect to write out messages in those tracers. That would be incomprehensible to a sober person but understood by somebody on psychedelics. Gunnar Hellekson: I see. so they were able to muster a cash prize for this. To… David Egts: Yes, yes. Gunnar Hellekson: what end? David Egts: Don't know why not. I don't know and I'm wondering too. it's like talk about Solutions looking for a problem right or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: or it's like, dude, let's get a grant and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I think with the first thing that strikes me is. Folks on psychedelics are famously receptive to you've probably heard the thing of so you take a Wizard of Oz and play Pink Floyd The Wall right in and… David Egts: Yeah, thankfully. Gunnar Hellekson: and then they're supposed to be synced up as you're listening to the audio from the album and you're watching the movie and then they're supposed to be the kind of secret messages or you get a kind of a story is told as you're looking at these … David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: so my point being that focus on psychedelics are already receptive to receiving messages that may or may not be there. And so the real question is… David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: how do you craft a psychedelic cryptography that someone can trust was intentional as opposed to one that was manufactured by the tripping person's brain. David Egts: yes, and maybe what you do is and I think what happened in this case is that they actually had a review board of the people they would all take the Psychedelics and… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: in so imagine it's sort of a film festival on psychedelics where you have a board of people that are voting on which message comes through and I don't know if it's best, three out of four if they could decipher it and … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: they come to a consensus of what the right message is. Gunnar Hellekson: This feels to me like I don't know. Sophomore year in college. Okay, it's just like I'm trying to figure out. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: what good for them exploring something. It is under researched. I think it's safe to say. David Egts: And I admire their gumption to make quasi Film Festival out of this and try to have a good reason to enjoy psychedelics. So yeah. 00:35:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: Yeah put it to good use instead of think of all the ways of time people just took psychedelics and didn't do any cryptography, Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. They just said they're listening to Black Sabbath albums doing nothing. Yeah, right. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, and lastly speaking of listening to back Black Sabbath albums and doing nothing. David Egts: So I remember how that drunk driving was a thing, right and then Uber comes along and the Rideshare and it's like wow that people's to inebriated or whatever. It's like you could have the gig economy take care of society and take the drunk person home and all that but I learned this a little while ago that in Turkey in the 1960s. they had basketmen. Gunnar Hellekson: Tell me more. What do you do? David Egts: Yeah so if somebody was to drink I'm sorry too drunk to walk the bar would have a basket man come you would put the drunk person in this basket this imagine a wicker basket and then the basket man would put the basket on his shoulders and he would carry that person to his home and take him home. Gunnar Hellekson: That's good. Yeah. It's great. David Egts: Yeah, yeah both and in Turkish, I guess there's coufe, which means being so drunk you cannot walk and then there's another saying conflict Omak meaning to being carried home in a basket. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's right. David Egts: Yeah, and it winds up that it's not the drunk person paying the basket man. actually The bars they would hire the basket men to take their patrons home? Gunnar Hellekson: Smart that's smart. That's great. David Egts: Yeah. But if you check it out in the the link there and in the article. There are two pictures of action photos of the basketmen with customers. David Egts: yeah, how would you describe the two pictures Gunnar Hellekson: What I thought I was going to see is a kind of a rickshaw situation. And that's not… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: What I'm seeing here is Gunnar Hellekson: a basket the kind you might carry a second grain in maybe right. David Egts: Yeah, like a very large laundry basket. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, imagine a pastoral. Medieval painting and folks threshing wheat or whatever and the basket. They haven't read That's the basketball we're talking about. David Egts: Yep. Hermapho Led Zeppelin album Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right except instead of It's a bundle of drunk that you're carrying around on your… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's hilarious. David Egts: And the first picture it looks like the guy is giving a speech or something or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Is carrying on passionately and… David Egts: yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: then I can't the basket man has kind of a knowing smirk on his face. David Egts: He's like, yeah, this is how it ends for him. it's like this is what my life is is, this is where I'm at and then check out the second picture there. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. This guy's having a grand time. David Egts: Yeah, yeah much better than the first guy that sort of like shouting or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: having a speech this what he's like sort of it's like he's sitting in the bathtub with his feet like his butts in the basket. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: His feet are out. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. He's having a great time. David Egts: It's holding his hat. He's happy. He's thrilled. Yeah. David Egts: so Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: fantastic David Egts: there you have it. so in meetings KU flick Omak and needing to being carried home in a basket trying that's the challenge try to use that in a meeting this week. Gunnar Hellekson: Great. David Egts: All So if people have reggaeton that they need to get rid of or they're looking to date that one special guy or they need some psychedelics and do some cryptography. Where should we send them? 00:40:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they need to go to a dgshow.org. That's d and Dave Gia's and Gunnar show.org. David Egts: All Okay Gunnar. thanks everybody and see you all next time. Gunnar Hellekson: Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.