Dave and Gunnar Show - Transcript 00:00:00 David Egts: So, Gunnar, it's been a while. Gunnar Hellekson: It's been uh it's been quite a while. Yes. Uh David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I think what did you say? March was the last time we talked. David Egts: Yeah. And we have another episode that we got to push out, but uh but it's Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: uh it has been a while. It has been a while. Uh so, yeah, it's it's been But what's what's going on? A lot lot lot a lot of things to report on to catch up everybody up on. But what's what's new with you? Gunnar Hellekson: So, I think a headline for me is uh I've been playing a lot with Gemini lately and uh and I've become absolutely insufferable at home because about every half hour I'm I tell my beautiful wife uh oh, did you know you could do this? Oh, and you know, if I do this, then this happens. Um uh which is the hallmark of a good technology. Um first of 00:00:51 David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: all, let me get this out of the way. 100% worth the extra 20 bucks a month on my Google David Egts: Uh-huh. Gunnar Hellekson: account. um David Egts: Uh-huh. Gunnar Hellekson: has already paid for itself many times over. Uh and uh my latest achievement, Dave, was I created for myself a virtual team. David Egts: Yes. Yes. I Gunnar Hellekson: So David Egts: want Gunnar Hellekson: I David Egts: to hear Gunnar Hellekson: c David Egts: about this. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. So I got a So pretty easy. I just created a Google doc and each tab and the Google doc is a different persona. Um I did kind of one for work and then I did one for home. So, you know, you can imagine uh uh for the home one, it's like uh there's a parenting coach and there's a scheduling expert and uh you know, so on. Um and did I write them by hand? No, of course I didn't. I made David Egts: No. Gunnar Hellekson: the AI 00:01:33 David Egts: No. Gunnar Hellekson: write them for me, right? Um and David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: then I David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: twiddled with them as I as I liked. Um tried to give them each distinct personalities and David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: then uh load them up in a thing and then I say, "Okay, I need all of you to agree. I'm going to ask you a question. I need all of you to agree." Or I can call on each of them individually and say, "Hey, scheduler exchuling expert, um, help me with this and such." And uh, with remarkably little context, it does a fantastic job. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: It's really impressive. Very impressive. Um, and it's got me thinking about uh the ways in which I deploy expertise and what kind of expertise I need to kind of surround myself with. You know what I mean? Um, David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: because the it's only as good as the inputs that it gets really. Um, David Egts: Mhm. 00:02:23 Gunnar Hellekson: and uh being able to uh being able to it's interesting. I've actually started uh also modeling myself. And what that looks like is having a master prompt that has my name and my uh uh my preferences and my things that I don't like and my goals and my all these things. And uh I I load that in as the first thing that I load in before I start asking it a question. And even with just like a page and a half of context like that, it makes a huge difference in the quality of the results. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Um David Egts: instead Gunnar Hellekson: so I David Egts: of something Gunnar Hellekson: could David Egts: generic. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. And so I can and also easier for me to manage because I can kind of casually mention say Saurin for example and it immediately knows that oh that's my son and that he is 11 years old and and so on and so on. Um so pretty great. 00:03:21 Gunnar Hellekson: Pretty great. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I can strongly recommend it. David Egts: Yeah. And and this goes back to uh a blog post that I sent you that's based on a paper that was written uh that and and what this paper talks about is uh precisely what you did was like you don't want to just like when you're having a chat session with an AI, you don't want to say, "Oh, generate this report now summarize it then do this." What what they said is to create personas for the different roles that would be done of the jobs that be done for a particular task like oh I want you to be an expert on open source or Linux or something like that and you're and this is and you want to give it a name like this is Dr. Smith and you know Dr. Smith is a Linux expert and worldrenowned blah blah blah PhD and and everything and then um you could say that okay I want Dr. Smith to do this research and then uh and then uh hand off the data to Mr. Jones who is the research assistant and the research assistant is an MBA proficient with blah blah blah and and so uh you could do that then hand it off to like a QA assistant to do the quality assurance. 00:04:37 David Egts: So and if all of a sudden the QA person doesn't like it hand the test back to Dr. Smith or Mr. Jones uh to rework their particular areas and and you could actually see it loop around and do a couple iterations and then it turns out a product that is is pretty remarkable. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I've had fantastic results with it so David Egts: Yeah. And I I like how too it's like instead of putting it all in the prompt, you could put it in a Google doc and then reference that Google doc and then have everything separated by uh you know different tabs. uh for each uh person or persona and you know and I've seen people use synthetic data for uh developing their own focus groups and things like that as well and and uh but it it's it's a great way to like red team ideas and bring in different perspectives. So instead of the AI, you know, they're they're currently being accused for of sick offency and you know, it's like you can get you could have a kromagin that just pushes back on everything and challenges you, right? 00:05:47 David Egts: And and Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: so Gunnar Hellekson: that's David Egts: that that Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: could be fun. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Um, and the uh the magic of as you mentioned being able to do it in a Google doc and then every time you start a new chat it's refreshing based on the information in the Google doc. So now the Google doc is just something you can maintain over time um David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: as opposed to it being some like complicated baking it into a thing and creating a new separate like no just keep it in the Google doc and then if you change your mind about how you want it to behave you just update the Google doc and then you're done. It's David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: great. David Egts: It It's like a pound include back in the C days. Gunnar Hellekson: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. So, yeah. Plus David Egts: Nice. 00:06:25 Gunnar Hellekson: one for me. Big thumbs up. David Egts: Nice. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. And then for me it's like Pocket is going away. So my my workflow is Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, yeah. David Egts: just been blown up. But are were you still using Pocket or or are you you building a life raft or what's what's or you don't care? What's Gunnar Hellekson: No, David Egts: your What's Gunnar Hellekson: I had David Egts: your ear? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's funny. So, when I saw that you put this in in the in the in our in our show page in our show notes, I uh I had forgotten that I so I actually transitioned over to Instaper and I could David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: not tell you why. I I literally do not remember why I transitioned, but um I'm on team Insta Paper now. So, uh I'm sorry to see Pocket go though. Paco was great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. So in in my case I over the past couple weeks I moved over to Walabag which uh is it's an open source project. 00:07:21 David Egts: So, think of it as like an open source implementation of uh of Pocket and Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: it's good, right? And and so I would argue that Pocket like since it got bought by Mosilla, it just the it got buggier and you know, so I traded one set of bugs for a different set of bugs and Gunnar Hellekson: Sir, David Egts: and Gunnar Hellekson: right? David Egts: it's fine. Uh but but lately I'm back into GitHub uh doing like feature requests in there and everything. So, and I I paid up for the service, too. It's like $13 US a year, Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: you know, Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: or or you could host it yourself. And I could in theory I could possibly install like like Docker on my home router and run it right on my router. It's just light footprint. But for like 13 bucks a year and something I don't have to secure and I I don't have to have anybody poking it, you know, it's Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: like take my $13, support 00:08:22 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: open source. Great. You know, Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. It's David Egts: keep Gunnar Hellekson: great. David Egts: it going. Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That sounds like a great great option. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. And it it does uh you know for me the things I was looking for was uh text to speech and uh it does it on the audio app or I'm sorry on the Android app and I'm I'm happy with that. It you know the iOS app is not as strong but it's like that's fine. I'm I still use Android too. So Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: um so I'm doing all right. Doing all right. Gunnar Hellekson: Good. David Egts: And uh yeah. Yeah. But but we have an exciting show uh for today. Uh we got uh we're going to be talking about fake bodies, uh fake passports, fake speakers, uh fake Commodore 64 CDROM, and uh we're going to talk about uh Eric Morrisy being mean to uh AI. 00:09:17 Gunnar Hellekson: That sounds great. That David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: sounds great. David Egts: Yeah. So uh for people to get uh the links to uh that uh it's all about perspective and build their own uh focus group uh where where should they go? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they can go to djshow.org. That's D as Dave. Geng gunnershow.org. O RG David Egts: Yes. Nice. And um yeah, cutting room floor. Let's let's take a look at that real quick. We got we got some good stuff there. Uh so uh we so for fans of the movie American Psycho uh there's a there's a nice uh blog post from a business card company that uh did their own reviews of the cards from uh business cards of American Psycho. Uh and so it's very artisan, you know, what to look for in business cards. So and and so to me it's great marketing for them as far as like the time and attention they put into uh thinking about business cards. uh that probably more they they do more than most people. 00:10:18 David Egts: So, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: uh Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: should check that out. Um and then there's an app that I saw that uh uh like an alarm clock app uh for your phone where uh if you want to hit the snooze button on the alarm clock, you have to watch an ad. Gunnar Hellekson: that David Egts: So, Gunnar Hellekson: that alarm app better do a whole lot of other stuff besides setting an alarm in order to uh earn its keep as a with the with the advertisement. You know what I mean? Um, David Egts: Yeah, I don't know how I could like I'm happy with the alarm on my phone that's like built in. I don't you know what else Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: does it have to do? And Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: um and I don't I don't need my ad experience optimized any more than necessary. So, Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. Yeah. I David Egts: but Gunnar Hellekson: feel like we solved this problem. We don't need more. 00:11:07 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. We don't need David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: the help. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: But you could try it out. uh people could report back and then I sent you this video uh with all the the hoopla about now like video generation uh AI video generation is like it's like unbelievable uh and I Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: sent you the influenders Gunnar Hellekson: that's David Egts: uh Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: video and what's your take on that? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. So it's a it's a pastiche of well well it's like a pastiche of like Tik Toks or like Instagram reels uh from people dur who are still invested in their careers as influencers during the apocalypse. Uh David Egts: Yes, Gunnar Hellekson: so like you know fgging protein drinks and David Egts: Bitcoin. Gunnar Hellekson: uh skincare routines, Bitcoin. Uh yeah, it was pretty great. I think. What What were some What was one of your favorite lines from that? David Egts: No, like the the whole like buy at the dip, you know? 00:12:07 David Egts: It's Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: like I'm I'm Gunnar Hellekson: that's David Egts: buying Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: more, you know, and Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: and and Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: then it's like uh uh what is it? It's people are talking about like powerlifting and you know, it's it's like it's you can't you know, it was just so hil Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, I know. I David Egts: times because Gunnar Hellekson: My favorite was David Egts: so Gunnar Hellekson: uh it's David Egts: real. Gunnar Hellekson: like, well, of course the of course the world's ending. Sea oils make y'all weak. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: Yeah. And it that it was a woman that was like eating raw meat and and Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: it it all looked like so realistic and I I Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: think that's why I kept watching it over and over again like trying to look for the the tells and you Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: know the extra fingers or the hair not being flowing perfectly and everything and you could 00:12:55 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: tell if you look really hard but it's like my gosh it's like with Hollywood it's like they if they don't embrace this type of technology and adapt to it, it's it's going to be really bad. It's almost like the when people went to CGI from the, you know, the scale models of Godzilla walking around and knocking stuff over um Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: and a Gunnar Hellekson: that's David Egts: guy Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: in a rubber Godzilla suit, you know, Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: uh to Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: CGI, you know, it's it's like that but like on steroids where like anybody could do this. It's it's Gunnar Hellekson: Yep, David Egts: just amazing. Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. And as we've said on the show before, this is the worst it's ever going to be, right? David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: It's It's David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: only going to be higher quality from here on out. David Egts: Yeah. Right. Right. And it's only going to get worse from here. 00:13:41 David Egts: Um so yeah. Yeah. And then uh let's see. The last thing I got is the in the cutting room floor. Uh so uh we got some um uh middle-aged man trading cards uh in a rural Japanese town. Gunnar Hellekson: I David Egts: And Gunnar Hellekson: love David Egts: so Gunnar Hellekson: this idea. I love this David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. So, it's great that, you know, it's like uh Japan, they're famous for respecting their elders and all that. Well, um with uh there are some people that it's like they made these trading cards like Pokemon or or whatever your favorite game is of of like the like middle-aged to elderly men in this rural town. And then the kids would trade the cards and they would battle against each other because on the back of the card it had like the stats for for the middle-aged man and you know and how many points are up and down and you know the special powers that they had and everything. So it was it was pretty good. 00:14:36 Gunnar Hellekson: So good. So good. I wish we had one of our own. David Egts: Yeah. Well, and I did so if people go to the show notes they could uh I I generated some character cards for myself and for you. Um, so they Gunnar Hellekson: These David Egts: uh Yeah. Yeah. What what any was there anything that that jumped out at you in terms of uh uh it being uh on message? I I basically took our uh transcripts of the podcast, pumped them into Notebook LM, and then had Notebook LM generate some some character cards for us. Gunnar Hellekson: are pretty great. I think the I think my favorite special ability that it described to me was a the Twitter banishing aura. Uh, so once permanently deleted his Twitter account, creating a zone of social media detachment around him, which I think is a very helpful skill. I think I love it. It's great. David Egts: powerful Gunnar Hellekson: How about you? Do you have a David Egts: on Gunnar Hellekson: favorite 00:15:26 David Egts: brain. Gunnar Hellekson: uh Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Do you have a do you have a favorite attribute for yourself? David Egts: Yeah. Well, um and and so there's the special ability of rapid link retrieval where I can quickly recall and share relevant information from his vast metal archives. So I always have these weird fun facts. So I'm surprised it pulled that out. And then I guess there was that stage that I grew a beard uh and and it's uh I have the skill of uh minor the beard of minor intimidation where uh I once grew a beard that reportedly scared children and then that grants a plus one intimidation checks but only when visibly bearded. Gunnar Hellekson: Excellent. It's fantastic. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Love it. David Egts: So yeah, we need to do like a Dan Walsh one. Gunnar Hellekson: Oh yeah, that's a good We should do one for each of the guests, right? David Egts: Yeah. And and and Gunnar Hellekson: Collect them all. David Egts: for your your personas, too. You should do character cards for, you know, your virtual 00:16:24 Gunnar Hellekson: Oh David Egts: team that Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, David Egts: you've created. Gunnar Hellekson: that's a great idea. That's a great idea. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I love this. David Egts: They Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: could battle each other. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. That's right. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Excellent. David Egts: Yeah. There we Gunnar Hellekson: Excellent. David Egts: go. All right. Full of ideas. So, okay. So, a little followup here. Remember when we talked about organoids? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, of course. David Egts: Yeah, it's like couple brain cells in a jar and then you hook it up to a I don't know USBC or whatever and you could talk to it or PCI card. Um, Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: so there's a new term you could add your lexicon not organoids but bodys. Gunnar Hellekson: Uh oh. This David Egts: Yes, Gunnar Hellekson: isn't I feel like this is moving in the wrong direction. David Egts: exactly. Yeah. Well, there Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: you can say they're ethically sourced. 00:17:10 David Egts: Uh so um so uh so basically the thought is people could develop these body oids where you could have a fully formed human but you um you basically stunt their uh you establish genetic traits to inhibit brain development. Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: So imagine it's like you go into this warehouse or whatever and you may have these, you know, you know, like a whole warehouse of gunners laying on gurnies, right? Uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Uh-huh. David Egts: you know, Yeah. And and they're not sensient. Um, but it's like, hey, all of a sudden, you know, you blow your liver out or whatever and it's, hey, I got your liver right here and it's all grown, ready to go. Um, all the parts you need. You your eyes are going bad. got some new eyes right here. And and so it's so the the help here is that, you know, with the crisis with uh people on organ transplant waiting lists and the black market for organs and everything, here's a great way to eliminate that market. Everybody gets all the organs they want. 00:18:25 David Egts: Uh and then the other part is for uh uh the the other problem is medical testing on uh animals. And so Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: it's Gunnar Hellekson: sure. David Egts: like, oh, Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: you know, uh, whether it's medical or, you know, cosmetics or whatever, testing it on rabbits or or chimpanzees or mice, you don't have to, you know, number one is it it's like mapping the well, this drug worked on a mouse uh or it worked on a chimpanzeee, but will it work on a human? And then it has to go to to human trials. And it's, you know, you have the literally like animal guinea pigs and human guinea pigs that are testing this and they're all sensient. Wouldn't it be great if you could go right to the body oid, do your cancer testing, you know, give that body ooid cancer, uh, you know, and and then give it a treatment and see how well it reacts to that. And it's and they're not sensient and you you have that whole warehouse of of gunners that you could uh do all kind of experiments on. 00:19:38 Gunnar Hellekson: uh man. David Egts: I got one Gunnar Hellekson: Uh David Egts: more. I got Gunnar Hellekson: okay, David Egts: one more. Gunnar Hellekson: go ahead. All right. Yeah, keep going. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Sure, why David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: not? David Egts: If you're Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: not sold yet, how about meat? you know, so Gunnar Hellekson: H David Egts: so it's like we're growing cattle, chickens, pigs, fish, sensient human beings or I'm sorry, sensient animals. Uh we're growing them, we're slaughtering them. Wouldn't it be great if we had uh body oids of the meat products that we know and love that aren't Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: sensient and we can harvest them and eat them? So, Gunnar Hellekson: Uh David Egts: what what's what's wrong? What's wrong there? And anything Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, David Egts: wrong with Gunnar Hellekson: I David Egts: this? Are you all in Sure. Gunnar Hellekson: I feel like something has to be wrong with this because it's giving me the creeps, right? 00:20:22 Gunnar Hellekson: Uh and you're put and you're making a great point, which is well, wait a minute, you're comfortable if they're sensient and not comfortable if they're not sentient, which you know, fair. That's a that's a legitimate that's a legitimate point to make. Um, still in all seems super creepy and I feel like we should pay attention to that. Just David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: blowing past that fact seems dangerous. But I couldn't tell you why. Couldn't tell you David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: why. David Egts: And it's it's like do you you know it's like it's also like the like I'm happy to eat the hamburger or steak or chicken, but I don't want to go to a slaughter house and and Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: I I literally don't want to see the sausage be made, right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: I think in the same way I don't want to go to the warehouse of gunners uh to you know pick out an organ and you know it's it's like there are certain things that that can happen and it's like you just don't want to see it whether it's like oh I'm you know if I have a warehouse full of bodyoid cows or a farm of cows and that are going into a slaughter house or I take 00:21:35 David Egts: the bodysids of the cows to the slaughter house. Uh, is one better than the other? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I'm sure that now I am sure that if I had taken enough philosophy classes or maybe even enough religion classes, I would be able to tell you why this it's wrong, right? Um, but I feel like it has to do with the fact that these bodies are attached to sentience to souls and it reminds me of um, uh, of Golden Compass, uh, in the the Pullman novels. Um, uh, whose real name escapes me right now. Uh but the uh it's this world in which everyone has a familiar that they uh when they reach puberty they gain a familiar right which is bound to them. Um, David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: and uh, it makes people and there's a and nobody else ever touches the familiar, right? So, if your monkey if your familiar is a monkey, no one would ever dream of touching your monkey. And uh, in the book people are severed from their familiars and that is a horrifying uh, abomination, right? 00:22:44 Gunnar Hellekson: Like people can't imagine how horrible that is. That's that's the kind of vibe I'm getting from this where like no, these things are supposed to be connected to each other. Like this body is supposed to be connected to sensience. supposed to be connected to, you know, call it a David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: soul or whatever it is. And when that is absent, that gives me the creepy crawies, right? David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: And it's visceral. It's not logical. It's visceral. Um, so, David Egts: Yes. Well, it's like you're anthropomorphizing the the body oid, right? Gunnar Hellekson: right, David Egts: Aso and as Gunnar Hellekson: which David Egts: opposed Gunnar Hellekson: which David Egts: to Gunnar Hellekson: is David Egts: like Gunnar Hellekson: which David Egts: a vat Gunnar Hellekson: is easy David Egts: with a Gunnar Hellekson: to David Egts: steak Gunnar Hellekson: do. David Egts: in it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's easy to do because it's so visibly anthro. You know what I mean? David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: Like, you don't have to you don't have to imagine it. 00:23:23 David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: an actual human body, right? Yeah. David Egts: Yep. Yep. So, yeah, I guess you know people are listening now, they could pause and then break into discussion groups and get back with us as to what the answer is going to be. But, uh, but we we could move on. Uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so Gunnar Hellekson: All David Egts: let's Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: talk about fake passports. Uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: so generative AI, you know, I saw this article that it's like, oh my gosh, uh, Chat GPT is doing an amazing job at generating images of fake passports and and they fixed it, you know, since it was published. But I was thinking that it's like, okay, what, you know, to me there's an RFID in it. there's there's like the physical aspects of it and it's like what's the big deal here? But it's actually people are using like photographs like a a a digital photo from their cell phone of their passport to create like a Coinbase account for KYC, you 00:24:26 Gunnar Hellekson: Oh David Egts: know, know Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, David Egts: your Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: customer. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: And Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: that's how they're they're using these images of passports to to generate fake citizens to create fake accounts. Gunnar Hellekson: Uh, that makes sense. Yes, that makes perfect sense. David Egts: Yeah. So something to be on the lookout there. Uh you know, so I could imagine it's like I could make a totally fake person or I could make a a gunner passport if I want to do some uh you know um you identity theft, right? and said, "Oh, this is totally me. Let me email you my my passport." And you know, you send that picture in and it's, "Oh, obviously it is you." So, just more stuff that people got to watch out for. And and it's also, I think, a a sign that, you know, that that photographs of a paper passport is not, you know, it's it's outlived its usefulness as part of, you know, show as as a proof of identification. 00:25:24 David Egts: It's not really proof if it can be faked so easily. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Well, this goes back to we've talked about this before, this notion that anything that is digital is kind of inherently untrustworthy. Uh, and uh in the same way that you shouldn't trust a photograph without scrutiny, you shouldn't trust a video without scrutiny. Um, that goes for identity documents as well, right? As soon as it's been rendered digital, anybody can do anything they want to it. David Egts: Yep. Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yep. For sure. Yeah. And then uh speaking of more fakes, uh so do you remember do you remember the Simpsons episode from February of 1996 where Homer and Bart go to the appliance zone and then there's like all these genuine fake uh appliances there like like Panoponics and Sworny and Magnet Box. Gunnar Hellekson: No, I don't I don't remember that episode. I don't remember that David Egts: Class Gunnar Hellekson: episode. David Egts: Classic. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I'll have to I'll have to dig up a link uh, put that in the show notes, but the but it's it's great. 00:26:26 David Egts: And, uh, so it winds up that this is right off the lot at a, uh, Volvo dealership. They, uh, people have identified like fake speakers inside of like brand new Volvo cars. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow. David Egts: Yeah. So instead of it being like Bowers and Wilkins, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: it's they changed the W to two capital V's in Wilkins. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Right. David Egts: So Gunnar Hellekson: It's David Egts: and and Gunnar Hellekson: two David Egts: to Gunnar Hellekson: totally David Egts: me Gunnar Hellekson: different David Egts: it's Gunnar Hellekson: things. Two totally different things. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Yeah. Anybody in the any reasonable person would realize, yeah, that's that's they're totally different and uh similar quality uh but but they're different. Uh, but I'm surprised that that's right on the brand new dealer a lot. Like I can imagine if it's a used car and you know it's like you know uh that you know somebody tricks it out or they slip something weird in there but um yeah I was surprised to see that for uh a new car lot. 00:27:32 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that is a surprise. Are are things so hard at Volkswagen right now? David Egts: Uh well, Volvo, but uh I Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: don't Gunnar Hellekson: sorry. David Egts: know, Gunnar Hellekson: Volvo, right? David Egts: but also Volvo is a it's owned by uh I think it's Gily, which is a Chinese company. So, essentially, it's like Volvo is like a Chinese car manufacturer Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: these days or how how Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: they're Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: owned. So, um so it's there's your supply chain for you. Uh so, yeah, check check your speakers. Um, and then I guess you know to land the plane here. There's uh, hold on a second. Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: So, to close out uh and start to land the plane, it like uh like false memories and everything. Uh true or false, did Commodore 64s have CDROMs? Gunnar Hellekson: No, they did not. Too early. David Egts: Maybe. It's sort of sort of it's mostly that's mostly true. Uh so what happened? So there are uh there is like uh there's this YouTube person uh in Germany. He found a CDROM for use with a Commodore 64. Gunnar Hellekson: What I David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: mean 64 is like a like like audio tapes was how you stored David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: stuff, right? David Egts: It's a great that's a great clue. 00:30:12 David Egts: So, so if you look at the the kit uh that that comes with it, it comes with a CDROM and then it comes with this weird looking adapter and so the adapter has the cassette port on one end and then an RCA jack on the other end. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: And so like you know how you and then you you hit play on the tape drive and then it Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: starts you know playing that. Well, what you could do is you could take the CDROM, this weird adapter, plug it into, it's not a CD ROM drive, but just a CD player, and then use the RCA patch cable to take the to play basically the the screeching noise of the of the tape drive off of the CD ROM uh or not the CD ROM, well, from the CDROM to the CD player, an analog audio into the Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: cassette adapter. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Drastically improving the amount of storage available to that Commodore, I guess. But you're still limited to what 64K didn't have. 00:31:16 Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. But but you could fit a lot of games on that 74 Gunnar Hellekson: That's true. David Egts: minute CD, right? Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: And Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: then you could also skip, right? Because you have the different tracks that you could jump Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: to instead of having to fast forward the tape and foe Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, much David Egts: and Gunnar Hellekson: better. David Egts: remember what the marker was. So Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Right. David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, that's much easier. I love it. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: great. David Egts: Never never took off though. Uh but uh but it somebody found it and they they did a whole YouTube video. It was like 20 minutes. I'll never get back. Uh but people can check it out. And uh yeah, and then I guess with you know the other thing too that as as we close out there's uh uh yeah Sergey Brin uh was like there was this panel that he was on and he was talking about uh AI as as we all do and he said that uh uh you know that it's a weird thing we don't circulate this much in the AI community not just our models but all models do better 00:32:19 David Egts: if you tend to threaten them. And then the speaker looks surprised and says that if you threaten them and then Brin responds like with physical violence, but people feel weird about that. So we really don't talk about it. Gunnar Hellekson: Uh, is that Well, I guess that's true. I guess I have it never even occurred to me to try it because I'm not a sociopath, but I guess uh yeah, I mean, if you think of motivated reasoning, yeah, or motivated reasoning in a motivated way, I guess David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I can I can understand why it would work, right? David Egts: Well, it's it's like the opposite of like saying please and thank you to the AI and being kind to it and Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: expecting to get better answers, but if you threaten it, uh he says that you'll get better answers. And so Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: I actually before I saw this friend of the show, Eric Moresy, he actually did like a LinkedIn blog post that he did an analysis and and he got the idea before Sergey was even talking about it publicly and he did the he did some analysis where um just like he did uh uh just a a kitchen counter experiment where he did a happy prompt and an angry 00:33:32 Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: prompt and he said that the angry prompts consistently received faster responses by 20 to 41% across all the models that he tested. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow. Wow. So that that which is meaningful. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so do you think that you know part of it is the like if you know at at the risk of anthropomorphizing the AI you know is this is there like a leadership lesson here of you know is that how Sergey motivates people and and people tend to uh you know do better if you if you physically threaten them. Um, and is, you know, is that is that like something out of like a a leadership book that we should apply to real life or or only to AIS? Gunnar Hellekson: Well, it makes me wonder about what these AIs are being trained on, right? uh you know what I mean? Because it because obviously it's pattern matching. So I mean it's pattern matching on some pretty bad human behavior. Um and I guess there's no consequences. 00:34:38 Gunnar Hellekson: It's not like you got to deal with the AI later. It's not like you got to, you know, run into them in the canteen uh after you screamed at them. Um for whatever the reason is, surely there's a better way to do this. like that's uh we shouldn't be encouraging that kind of behavior in any circumstance I guess is what I David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: would say David Egts: Right. Because then then if if you you know fast forward 5 years from now where you spend you're not even touching a keyboard. You're talking to your AI all day long and Gunnar Hellekson: yeah David Egts: you're just verbally abusing it and threatening it for like eight hours a day at work and then you come home. Gunnar Hellekson: something tells me that's going to be harder to turn off than you think it is Right. David Egts: Yes. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, that's right. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely want to I'll stick with a please and thank you. uh even if it takes a 00:35:30 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: little longer and you Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: never know with the robot uprising, you know, they may remember who was nice to them and and spare those Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: that that were kind. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: So, Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. That's right. And this show itself is being archived and will surely be read by an AI later. Uh so just for the record, I agree with David that David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: uh we should always be kind and say please and thank you and never threaten an AI just for uh a 20 or 40% performance improvement. David Egts: Yeah. And I for one uh uh welcome our new robot overlords. So, yes. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Just so just so David Egts: All right. So if if people want to build their own uh character cards of of uh you and and me and uh all the other good things in terms of uh you know want to want to think more about building their own bodysids uh where should they go? Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, they need to go to djshow.org. Uh, that's D isn't Dave season and gunnershow.org. David Egts: All right well thanks Gunnar and thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, everyone. This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.