This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. Gunnar Hellekson: traveling David Egts: Yeah, yeah, we both been going east I guess. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, we've been hitting the land for me. I was in the Land of the Rising Sun. And you were and… David Egts: Yes, yes. Gunnar Hellekson: you were in the land of sunrises? David Egts: Yeah, it was and sunset say they had both there so you're in Japan? Gunnar Hellekson: I was yes. Yeah, the whole crew pulled stumps and made for Tokyo and Kyoto. We did that for about eight days eight ten days. David Egts: . David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: We had a blast and where were you? David Egts: Hawaii Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Very nice. My old stopping grounds,… David Egts: your old stomping grounds. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: tell me. Gunnar Hellekson: Where not the most spectacular beaches you've ever seen. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: They were great to look at but I had a couple of problems. I'm used to I don't know Miami Puerto Rico and all that the white sandy beaches and then you walk in and everything so I'm in Honolulu and this is great. And then I start just stomping into the ocean and I'm damn coral and… Gunnar Hellekson: That's true. We do have Coral unless you're at the immaculately curated beaches of Waikiki. David Egts: and I was like this stinks, it's like why … David Egts: it's like what, people build it's like my Hawaii's build for these fantastic beaches and… Gunnar Hellekson: which … Gunnar Hellekson: All I see so usually because Wiki,… David Egts: I'm just suffering standing on all this coral and… Gunnar Hellekson: those beaches are actually completely artificial. David Egts: worry about cutting myself open or… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: twisting an ankle and all that. And yeah, I was a big surprise and… Gunnar Hellekson: The whole of Waikiki was a pig farm and… Gunnar Hellekson: swampland. And they drained the whole thing out and… David Egts: then there were some areas that had less Coral… Gunnar Hellekson: then laid concrete and… David Egts: but you had to sort of seek them out whereas I was just surprised by that totally Gunnar Hellekson: then Port sand on top and said congratulations. Here's what Kiki. Yeah. David Egts: no, there's even Waikiki. right outside the hotel. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Mm-hmm David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: but that's right. That's right. David Egts: Yeah. No, they had areas of the beaches that were the people were surfing and everything and then that went right into coral and then there were areas that were more of you could see they put in a breaker wall a couple dozen yards To break the waves and there wasn't any choral after that wall, but there's also no way so it's like you're standing in a giant bathtub. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: but then it's okay, it's fine. I enjoyed it, once I figured out how to navigate and everything and avoid the coral and then we went to Maui and the beaches there. It's like I didn't have at least the place we were at there was not Coral issue at… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. David Egts: But it's like man the waves they had signs up for it's warning signs and everything. I'm like, whatever. it's like I'm thinking Lake Erie waves, and So it's like and I've been thrown around by my share of waves that Atlantic City and whatever. It's like I could do this and so I got there and… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: it's like holy cow. I'm cartwheeling into Shore Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, the Pacific Ocean is not something to be trifled with. David Egts: literally Head Over Heels Flying in and… Gunnar Hellekson: No, no. David Egts: did that a couple times. I'm like, okay, I'm done and… Gunnar Hellekson: Especially when you get yeah,… David Egts: I was like, … Gunnar Hellekson: especially when you get the High Surf advisories than the water is gonna be in my experience. David Egts: I was like You needed to make sure that you just were at the right spot far enough out that you could like bob up and… Gunnar Hellekson: It's gonna be colder, okay. Yeah, yeah. David Egts: But away from the waves when they were breaking so you didn't get knocked over and just totally beat up. It's like I think I got a concussion the first day I was beat up. Yeah. 00:05:00 David Egts: Yeah, it's not heated either. it's a chilly… Gunnar Hellekson: delicious David Egts: but it's all right, it's good and then David Egts: Yeah, it's probably all mixed up. Yeah. And then, I followed your instructions in terms of was it Zippy's we did that and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: yeah that hit me hard. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, Zippy's is so for good folks who don't know Zippy's it's a restaurant takeout place Often includes something called Napoleon's Bakery. David Egts: I had to like what I had the Korean chicken and chili with rice and chili and rice. I would have never thought I would make a great combination… Gunnar Hellekson: They have all manner of kind of local Hawaiian food… David Egts: but just mixed together and… Gunnar Hellekson: which includes in their famous for their chili. David Egts: when you grew up there I could imagine Zippy's would be the place to go to after a night at the bars and… Gunnar Hellekson: And their surf pack which is like a protein and chili and rice and… David Egts: everything and… Gunnar Hellekson: macaroni salad,… Gunnar Hellekson: of course. David Egts: You need to like either before the bars or… David Egts: after the bars either to lay a good foundation, David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Yes. David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: So it's perfect for the morning because if you want to fuel up for a day of Surfing and cartwheeling in the surf you go fuel up with a surf pack and… David Egts: yeah that too macaroni salad and rice in the same meal not used to that. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: then you take a break for lunch. It's a piece and get yourself a little Korean chicken. Maybe there's a teriyaki chicken and then a night you can come back and get a spaghetti and meatballs and Chilean rice and maybe we've been treat yourself to something from the Napoleon's Bakery. you can never go wrong going to Zippy's as you discover. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, You can't get out of Zippy's with less than let's say 2500 calories. David Egts: Yeah. man. Gunnar Hellekson: That's the cost of entering is it? David Egts: No, and I had to lay down after it's like I could not have gone surfing I would have sunk but Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah stainless would be yeah, yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Perfect. That's… David Egts: then you told me to it's like make sure that I try to spam Musubi. Gunnar Hellekson: where you want to get it. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: Yep, and so that was great. I found that at a 7-Eleven. Yeah. So so for people that aren't familiar it's located where in an ordinary gas station where you have maybe the roller girl sort of items with the hot dogs or whatever heated sort of thing and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, maybe like a pack of cigarettes about that. David Egts: imagine it's… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: what about the size of a Matchbox car like that sort of size maybe a little bit bigger. I can't think of the right shape or half a pack of cigarettes or something. David Egts: Yeah, but it's this rectangular cube of rice. And then you got some teriyaki sauce on it and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. Yeah, that's right. How did you like? David Egts: then you have some square of spam wrapped with seaweed. David Egts: Yes. That was great. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: It was a surprise that was surprisingly filling and to me that's like, … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. That's right. David Egts: that's the right size for a nice snack,… Gunnar Hellekson: Do you know David 80% of the spam in the world is consumed in Hawaii? David Egts: again while you're out surfing or whatever. It it solid right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, we'll post game on anything. for a while he gets spam you go to McDonald's or… David Egts: It'll keep you going, Gunnar Hellekson: yourself a big breakfast. And get spam as the protein. David Egts: Gone, I'm not surprised. Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's good. what a treat and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: what other sites did you see while you're there? David Egts: Probably instead of Canadian bacon. Yeah, and that would be fine. Yeah, that's all right. David Egts: Yeah, we spent two days at Pearl Harbor. So we went on the submarine and did the Missouri and then toward the Arizona and all that so that was just Amazing, just and there's a air-hanging error or air museum that we toured as well, which was fun. And yeah, the other thing that surprised me too is that my fitness band it advertises that it's like, it can do up to five atmospheres of water… 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: which is 50 meters and all that and then there's Modes for swimming and… Gunnar Hellekson: that's a surprise. David Egts: all that for your but I totally fried and I think just because of the salt water. David Egts: But I had it in the water in Miami and all that but I don't know if it's just much more salinity or… Gunnar Hellekson: Man,… David Egts: whatever In Hawaii or… Gunnar Hellekson: I'm sorry. David Egts: what but it was like it just died. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: It just made this last gasp and… Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. David Egts: then it turned itself off. David Egts: Sorry, 35 bucks. Gunnar Hellekson: No, but they had regular Mississippi a plum in the middle. David Egts: No Yeah, but about you How is the old Japan did they have spam Musubi there? Gunnar Hellekson: It was good. And so yes, yes we had So first we did about three days in Tokyo and then three days in Kyoto enjoyed them both for me. David Egts: Okay, and seven elevens? Gunnar Hellekson: I'm more of a Kyoto man. I discovered Tokyo was great and it was fun and it's exciting, to navigate a city and not completely understand the language and… David Egts: Mm-hmm Gunnar Hellekson: all the better rituals. and there's in Japan everything has an order and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: there's things how will happen in a particular way there's a way to stand line in the subway. There's a certain way you behave on the subway and then when you get off there's a certain way that you order food and it's all slightly different. It's kind of exciting so it's a good, I opening traveling especially for the kids, right? Gunnar Hellekson: But Tokyo for my money with Tokyo's a good time, but Tokyo it's a very well run very clean very efficient, but big city, right Kyoto for me was we got on the shinkansen got on the bullet train and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: without a Kyoto and I was absolutely enthralled with Kyoto. I had a great time there just what amounts to a medieval city, right? And anyway, I just enjoyed the cultural sites seeing the Second Street Temple or Second Street Palace. Let's see, we did the Tea Ceremony we went and we went to Nara which was a good time went to Nara one of the old Imperial seats and there's a set of deer thereinara that have been taught to bow in exchange for treats. Gunnar Hellekson: And this is something that these deer are no longer taught themselves, but they teach the mama and the papadear teach the baby deers to do it. That has been going on for hundreds of years now. David Egts: wow better my dog. Gunnar Hellekson: And so this whole Nara Park which is both a Buddhist temple and a Shinto Shrine is lousy with tourists. And also allows it with deer and… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: so the deer just wandering around and if you suddenly catch their eye they'll walk up to you and they'll bow quickly and then knows you… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: until you give them a treat. And it's enchanting. It's a great time. It was really fun. We had a good time with that. Gunnar Hellekson: But there was hiking sites. Anyway, we had a fantastic time. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It was great and not for nothing. But the dollar against the end made it also a relatively cheap trip all things. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. I was also expecting to spend a lot of money but no though, it's a dollar to about a 150 160 Yen. So yeah, it was very actually inexpensive for all four of us to go. David Egts: Wow, I thought it would be the other way around… Gunnar Hellekson: So that was a good time. The last thing and… David Egts: but I guess. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: just to draw this back into the technology part of the discussion. Man, the Google translate legit transforms… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: how you travel? I've never been in a position… David Egts: That's good. Gunnar Hellekson: I haven't traveled to a place where I really needed to other utterly rely on Google translate Soren got moderately ill while we're traveling and so I need to go to a pharmacy. Gunnar Hellekson: Was able to carry a relatively sophisticated discussion about what medication he needed all with the aid of Google translate. David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: It was awesome. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I kind of composed an opening line, the kind of a scene setting and… David Egts: and was it you typing things in and… Gunnar Hellekson: then I showed it to him and he goes. yeah, okay here and… David Egts: then fanatically reading… Gunnar Hellekson: then he started talking I said,… David Egts: what it put out or Gunnar Hellekson: okay, hold on and then did the directional, live translating thing works like a charm. That's around the medication he needed it was great. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, super cool. David Egts: okay. Gunnar Hellekson: There's a colony of macaques around. 00:15:00 David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: What I believe is a Shinto Shrine you climb up to the top of this thing. David Egts: You see any monkeys while you're there? Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's about 20 minute hike to the top. and once you get to the summit you're confronted with a Shaq That has a cage around it. The monkeys are around the shack and that's when we realize to interact with these key They want you in the shack in the cage. Feeding the monkeys from inside the cage. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: So the monkeys don't get too aggressive with you. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah counter too, but we gotta make sense these monkeys. Hey, It's their Mountain. It's not your mountain, right you're the guest. So the one should be in the cage. I kind of like that and then there's a beautiful Vista of Kyoto below you and… David Egts: Okay, that's counterintuitive. Gunnar Hellekson: they've also furnished you with a large banana. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: that you can take a photo on top To commemorate your visit to this monkey Colony. So that was fun. That's a good time. Gunnar Hellekson: Monkeys are outside the cage the people in the food are inside the cage. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: And then occasionally the kind of lead monkey the head of the tribe or… David Egts: So when you go in the cage, do you go in the cage with a monkey or… Gunnar Hellekson: head of the I… David Egts: is a monkey outside the cage? Gunnar Hellekson: what they call. Group ahead of the troop would Wander over to the boss? David Egts: Okay. Got it, okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Human boss inside the cage and it kind of wrap on the door knock around a little bit and the guy would kind of throw half a mango out and quickly the boss would grab the half mango and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: he's the only one who gets mango And yes boss,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right and occasionally, teenage monkeys would get rambunctious and then he'd come over and start knocking them around a little bit people like to our guests and he kind of kept the peace in this true. David Egts: Billy's boss. Yeah Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It was fun. That's great. What a great time. Yeah, really? I can recommend it. It was a good time. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. David Egts: and was Tokyo New York City with a lot of Japanese people and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. I think you character has it. David Egts: you can't read the writing and… Gunnar Hellekson: Not too bad. David Egts: it's all congested or… Gunnar Hellekson: So as it's denser than New York cleaner than New… David Egts: or is it on a scale of one to Blade Runner … David Egts: where you disappointed? Gunnar Hellekson: More efficient like all the trans ran on time. Gunnar Hellekson: All the machines worked if you know me like that, in Japan. there's a lot of vending machines and At all of them work perfectly every time they have a great system… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: where you can buy a Transit card. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Which can also be used on vending machines and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: to buy stuff and so it's kind of like also a credit card. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So that part was nice and Gunnar Hellekson: but also Very quiet it wasn't loud… David Egts: No. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: because my experience is that people in Japan don't like talking out loud in public if they can avoid it. and not that many cars on the road made it it was quiet both in Tokyo. David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: It was a delight. Yeah. David Egts: okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Not as much as you think because people use the mass transit systems, them. David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, there were cars on there, but I would say fewer cars than I would see in New… David Egts: I thought there would be a lot of traffic. Gunnar Hellekson: For example. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: public transit yeah David Egts: yeah, and then with the orliness with how you order food and get on the subway was there the guy with the broom that was pushing people in and the jamming everybody and David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, no, no. we didn't really travel during rush hour. So I didn't see the worst of it but it was extremely well thought through catching the train to the airport, follow the red line and you follow the red line all the way to the cars and then in the subway maps you're standing there waiting for the subway behind you is a map of the subway station… David Egts: wow. Gunnar Hellekson: which includes a directory of stores and shops and places of interest and it tells you which staircase to exit out of in order to be closest to that thing, which I That was very thoughtful when you're standing and waiting for the train they have stand here and… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: and here's a set of feet on the floor. And if you stand in this line in this order,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you will get on the train to go to the airport. 00:20:00 David Egts: No, like DC Metro … Gunnar Hellekson: Right unambiguous even… David Egts: how many times have I been to a metro stop where I'm always getting out the wrong exit,… Gunnar Hellekson: if you can't read the even… David Egts: to the surface and… Gunnar Hellekson: if you can't read the conjugates,… David Egts: you're blocks away from… Gunnar Hellekson: it was great super thought. David Egts: where you expected to be and yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yes. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also the announcements on the train are very quiet and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: very calm and I don't know what kind of futuristic speaker technology they've cracked in Japan,… David Egts: Yeah. Interesting and… Gunnar Hellekson: but I really wish the American mass transit systems would start using them. David Egts: then ordering food or… David Egts: whatever. Is it like Soup Nazi sort of like you guys do it right or… Gunnar Hellekson: particularly in airports Gunnar Hellekson: very soothing announcements David Egts: you get yelled at or what happens when you screw up or you don't know? David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: no, it's Yeah, you get very embarrassed and then walk away from the machine and then watch somebody do it correctly and then try to ape them that was my and so we wanted to try a Ramen place. And so I found a Dun noodle joint in a kind of residential area in Kyoto about 10 minutes from the hotel walk over to it. And then we were confronted you walk in before you enter. There's a vending machine. Which you used to select your order. And anyway, it was a little fiddly about how you get it turns out you gotta put the money in first and then you can make the order and then you hit the thing and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: then you get a receipt and then you walk in when there's a space available you walk in and… David Egts: interesting Gunnar Hellekson: then you sit down and then give them the ticket and then they go bring you the food, Cool, it took us a while to figure that We had to watch two or three people do it. David Egts: Yeah. yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: And we said okay. Now we understand… David Egts: and if they're such a big population you kind of have to have that efficiency built in or… Gunnar Hellekson: how this works but super efficient. And got us in there. We got out. David Egts: it just wouldn't work or people would yell at each… Gunnar Hellekson: It was quick. Yeah. David Egts: ? David Egts: Mm-hmm Gunnar Hellekson: That's And there's a eating while walking is frowned upon and there are also not that many public spaces to sit down. And so there is a truly hilarious number of coffee shops. David Egts: That's interesting. Gunnar Hellekson: Where you just go and you buy coffee and you sit down just to have the place to sit, yeah, and so David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: So they've got this notion of a cafe or even like a Ramen place of It's really just to have a place to go right? David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: It's not that many public places to go. And so this gives rise to things like cat cafes otter cafes. We availed ourselves of a pig Cafe… David Egts: Why not? Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: where we can you buy yourself a drink or… David Egts: and when you like or… Gunnar Hellekson: you buy yourself sometime in the cafe you get unlimited access to the coffee machine and… David Egts: is it from a plan for you to walk with a drink? Gunnar Hellekson: you get to hang out a little piglets. Yeah. That's good. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, not that you don't really walk around with a drink and… David Egts: Good. Gunnar Hellekson: a straw hanging out of it. I didn't see many people doing that. David Egts: All right. Gunnar Hellekson: You could take your drink in a bottle and then when you find a place to sit down you could open up the bottle and trick it but nobody's like walking down the street drinking out of the bottle simultaneously, we don't do that. Yeah. Yeah,… David Egts: Yeah, no,… Gunnar Hellekson: it was a delight and… David Egts: that sounds like fun something for the bucket list. Gunnar Hellekson: everyone was super nice and indulgent and patient with us. David Egts: Yeah, all… Gunnar Hellekson: And yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: I recommend a trip to Japan if you're not taking one. David Egts: So let's see we got a incredible show as usual. David Egts: Lined up. We're going to be talking about audible trackers. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. That's right. David Egts: We're gonna talk about coworker avatars and Local Deals on Slightly Used to Know Clippers. David Egts: So something for everybody. Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: So where should people go to get the links for Zippy's and… Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: the deer if they want to feed monkeys? Where do we need to send them? David Egts: All right, and then Cutting Room floor, we got the slack hold music and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they should go to a dgshow.org. That's a d as in Dave, G as in Gunnar's show.org. Yeah. David Egts: that there's the history of it. So if you ever use slack and used huddles and put somebody on hold, there's actually hold music and somebody created a 60 Minute Loop of the slack old music which is just relaxing and phenomenal and you just want to turn it on and just put it on in a background. So a lot of sex if you like that And then to me whenever I see an email that says I hope this email finds you first thing I think is this is AI generated,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Super groovy. Yeah. Yeah. 00:25:00 David Egts: and my fingers are hovering the delete button, but somebody did a mastodon bot. I guess, the person but they did basically an AI completion of I hope this email finds you Blank and then it came up with some just hilarious results and it's about you you could subscribe to and check it out. But do you have any favorites? David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I do so one. Yeah, I believe the author of this I think is Waldo Jake with Who I ran into in a previous life,… David Egts: Nice. Gunnar Hellekson: but my favorite is I hope this email finds you within its path of totality… David Egts: That's very 2024 Eclipse Yeah, I hope this email finds you before I do. Gunnar Hellekson: which we'll cut across the United States from Minnesota to Long Island. Yeah. David Egts: So yeah, it's a good way to update,… Gunnar Hellekson: It is. Yeah, that's right. David Egts: up level your assertiveness or… Gunnar Hellekson: What about you? David Egts: make it really awkward some for everybody in there. Yeah, and then Boston Dynamics they came out with a new robot which in the past we've seen these humanoid anthropomorphic robots they have the big table connector. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: It almost looks like a marionette on strings, right? This one is I guess fully battery operated no physical tether to anything and there's a nice 30-second video of it standing up. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. David Egts: And what was your take on that? David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, it's a very Awkward yoga instructor thing. Gunnar Hellekson: I was extremely disconcerting. It does not move in the way that you think it's going to move. David Egts: It's just not good Terminator. / yoga. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: all right, the creepy sound of online trackers Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah Terminator contortionists. It's very uncomfortable. David Egts: and so, … Gunnar Hellekson: That's very cool. David Egts: we're being tracked by you pull down a web page and it has all kinds of trackers and things like that and you don't realize how much is being. your phoning home and there's a guy I guess Brett Hubert made this when you go to a web page it and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and for you start talking back and feeding data back to a web tracker, it will play an auditory sound. I don't know how you would describe it like it sounds like a hard disk. Sort of sound, David Egts: Yeah, yeah, and so it would chirp whenever it is sending some data… Gunnar Hellekson: A Wishy kind of a yeah,… David Egts: but if you watch the videos there it's like they even went to a Dutch government job site and… Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. David Egts: there's trackers on that and the chirping is going crazy with sending all this data back. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And to me. It was very eye-opening in terms of what David Egts: What data we're sending back and we wonder… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: why web page downloads and all that are. Not speeding up or why you need to have gigabit internet at home. It's in order to feed the trackers, I think. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's funny because I think you and I both knew Google analytics, which is I think where most of this is coming from at least a demo video is I mean,… David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: we all kind of know what it's collecting right? It's collecting, you hear the sound even when he moves a cursor over a link he hasn't even clicked it yet and you'll see here wishing you hear another wish when he clicks and you know that they're collecting it because I've been on the other side and I've seen the Google analytics data. So I know what data is being collected, heat maps on where people are clicking on web pages and stuff like this,… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but I think there's something about making it Audible. And intrusive really kind of makes it Salient. David Egts: It was and… Gunnar Hellekson: … David Egts: it wasn't an alarm like a buzzer sort of annoying sort of sound to really amp it up. Gunnar Hellekson: what I mean? Yeah, it feels disconcerting when there is an audio component to it in a way that it looking at the code doesn't do the same thing for you, right? David Egts: It was just very subtle the way it's like you're giving all this data away and like you said too. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: It's not like what do you clicking on? It's whether where are you moving your mouse? What are you hovering over that it's that level of detail that you're giving up and I don't think people realize that 00:30:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, That's right. And it good for him. He actually chose a great demonstration website, which was this Dutch government job site,… David Egts: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which he points out includes jobs in the military in an intelligence and it even says it will tell Google when you said when you click apply for this job Yeah. David Egts: SO meetings you still doing a lot of video meetings? David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's cool. David Egts: With all the video calls that you do do you think will reach a stage… Gunnar Hellekson: How could I not Dave? David Egts: where you could train an AI of you and… Gunnar Hellekson: How could I not I enjoy them so much. David Egts: all your interactions and the AI can go to the meeting for you. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: yeah, and it's not just like hey,… Gunnar Hellekson: pretty easily I'd say for more meetings than I'm comfortable with. David Egts: I need an avatar that just smiles and nods or whatever but actually is using the Corpus of… Gunnar Hellekson: I could probably be replaced by an AI. David Egts: what you say and the content of… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yeah. David Egts: what you say and maybe it's tied in with your emails and what the AI knows about you to be able to, … Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. David Egts: participate in a meeting. But have you ever heard of otter.ai? Yeah. David Egts: That's what they're there. they're claim to fame for that and I can imagine as you… Gunnar Hellekson: Mostly I see them as a transcription service,… David Egts: the transcription is now being something that Google me and… Gunnar Hellekson: right? Yeah. David Egts: zoom and everybody else they're starting to do the transcriptions. Not only that the AI summaries in the note taking and all that. it's like otter and these others. their features been commoditized. So how do they differentiate more and the CEO of otter Sam Liang was talking about they're building a system called Otter Avatar that all train this model for the employee meetings that you don't want to go to or you're sick or you're on vacation and it will use your historical data your slack messages, past meetings and all that and then If you have a question to ask the employee the Avatar can answer that question on your behalf. David Egts: and the CEO is like and I think it was Steven Levy from wired was doing this interview and they were saying that it's like why doesn't everybody just send their avatars to the meeting and there then all the human people can go to the bar and have a drink and all that and so David Egts: But what's your take on that? Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I think they've missed the market opportunity here because nobody wants to have the meeting with the Avatar instead of the real person. I will never trust the Avatar to make decisions on my behalf. So what kind of a meeting are we talking about, I think the actual utility of this is Having avatars of bosses and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: decision makers and letting employees practice giving pitches. To the bosses, right? Okay,… David Egts: Yep. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: make up my boss,… David Egts: no, that would be good. Gunnar Hellekson: but make him angry making my boss. David Egts: And I've seen similar things for … Gunnar Hellekson: But he's in a good mood make it easy likes my idea make it that it doesn't like my idea and you can kind of role play a little bit. David Egts: the business schools are like,… Gunnar Hellekson: I think that would be super helpful. David Egts: are we gonna allow chat GPT in the classroom or we're gonna ban it and everything and there's one Professor. That is like no. I want you to come up with a business plan and then pump it into chat GPT and tell it to play the role of Elon Musk whoever you want and have them analyze your business plan and give you feedback on it and talk about what you learned. But yeah, that's a good point. Gunnar Hellekson: right Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, yeah, I think it's got to be a David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: What's the word? It's got to be. Expanding human capacity,… David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: And I mean, think about it even if I said no listen don't have this meeting with me have this meeting with my How's that gonna make the employee feel not great. and then also To what extent is the employee going to? 00:35:00 David Egts: Yes, yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Take seriously any kind of decisions or suggestions or opinions that Avatar might have knowing that it does not actually have my proxy. David Egts: What if this capability was available? And World War Two and… Gunnar Hellekson: right So I don't know it's hard for me to imagine the kind of a meeting… David Egts: you could have Stalin and every meeting. that the Soviets would have Gunnar Hellekson: where this is helpful, right? David Egts: would that be good or bad? David Egts: But he's an older meetings and… Gunnar Hellekson: think Stalin I don't think would enjoy this… David Egts: he could report back. Gunnar Hellekson: because I think it would dilute Sullins power wouldn't it part of the David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, so yeah, I guess that's right. Yeah. Yeah. if you wanted a… David Egts: Yes. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: if you wanted a ubiquitous watcher. And you wanted that to be the role. David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: I release I guess that's true or if you have an avatar who can automatically shut down bad ideas. Gunnar Hellekson: Maybe there's some utility in that. go have a Gunnar about have a Gunnar bot that's lurking in all of the engineering meetings. David Egts: They joined the meeting and leave. Gunnar Hellekson: And anybody proposes a proprietary software. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's immediately shut them down. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yeah,… David Egts: interesting. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: okay a little alert goes off of my watch about I'll be right back. David Egts: yeah, no not. Gunnar Hellekson: I need to be in this meeting and then I shove the AI botticide. David Egts: Yeah, and think of the with micromanagers love it,… Gunnar Hellekson: What do you thinking? Yeah. David Egts: it's like I can send my minion replica AIS to all the meetings and… Gunnar Hellekson: It doesn't trust in the organization. I guess that's my point. David Egts: have total situation awareness. And what chilling effect. Would that create of that so Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, yeah, and would you rather go? Having a drink with your co-workers or… Gunnar Hellekson: This doesn't seem like I like that. I like the idea of role playing with these things, but I don't like the idea of just having a bunch of bots. David Egts: a drink with their avatars. Gunnar Hellekson: arguing with each other Yeah. David Egts: Yes. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, a great question. David Egts: yeah true. Gunnar Hellekson: He's very optimistic in the sense that people actually enjoy having drinks with their co-workers and… David Egts: Yep. Okay needs some more work. All right. We'll put it back in the oven. Gunnar Hellekson: that's what they would choose to do with the free time that he's created. David Egts: All right. Speaking of needing more work,… Gunnar Hellekson: I think he's being very optimistic about that. David Egts: we've talked about typos squatting before whether it's a programming library or… Gunnar Hellekson: New York David Egts: a web page, you're hoping that somebody misspell something or they use the wrong library or whatever and you could have a poison payload whether it's a web server or a library running in a public open source repository and all that. So a new play on that is that there's a company researcher at lasso security. One of the things that they were doing is Using AI to generate code and sometimes it will hallucinate Library names that would be imported. and she would use The made-up Library names to check the repositories to see if they're there and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. David Egts: if they're not there. David Egts: You could create typo squatting libraries that could be used and so it winds up that I think Alibaba was in their code that was on their repository. They were publicly using libraries that we're AI generated and did not exist and I think it's been fixed since then, but Yeah, they went and they fixed it. It's like hey, I told you about this library that is fake and they're whoops and then we're going they would fix it. Gunnar Hellekson: For how long that's it, right? David Egts: But some examples is it was interesting this person ono. Or Elaine yado when yado rather came up with 20 questions at random with looking for zeros shot hallucinations posted the 20 Questions 100 times to each of the different models to see… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: how many times the made up library was repeating itself. and to see is it just a one-time anomaly or is there a consistent pattern and just a couple examples? They said that with gpt4 24.2% of the question responses produced at hallucinated packages… 00:40:00 Gunnar Hellekson: but David Egts: where 19.6 were repetitive. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: Gemini 64.5% the questions brought back made up names 14% were repeated cohere 29% hallucinated 24% repetition. Gunnar Hellekson: Gunnar Hellekson: does that's too many? David Egts: And I can imagine you could do the same thing with domain names too, probably. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That is incredibly High. David Egts: and this goes back to people just like looking at stack Overflow or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, probably is bets already been done, right? Yeah. Wow. David Egts: whatever and just blindly copying and pasting whatever the code is and hoping that it generates the output that they want, but they don't know what Surprises are added to it outside of working code? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. and… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: at least stack Overflow has some kind of a filter ring and feedback mechanisms that ostensibly know good results from Bad results. David Egts: it's opaque and… Gunnar Hellekson: And that's an imperfect system. David Egts: nobody is looking at reporting back… Gunnar Hellekson: But at least it's a system. you don't have that safety net with you or… David Egts: who knows, what happens but yeah, yeah, So I got so to close out. Gunnar Hellekson: gemini or cohere. David Egts: Have you ever been to the Texas facilities Commission State Surplus property store? Gunnar Hellekson: No, but I saw you include this in the show notes, and I was remember and… David Egts: Yeah. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: I remember reading a news article about a new set of goods were now available in the store. David Egts: yeah, so, part of it is like I'm gonna buy An old filing cabinet or whatever you could buy a cop car just like any of the auction sites,… Gunnar Hellekson: It's crazy. It's crazy. David Egts: right? it's like I want to buy a conference table that from some State, they're getting rid of it, right they want to liquidate it but I guess they also have some local airport, how people have there that bring knives accent through security and it's like all right, then they stick it in whatever the box and then this box goes to the surplus store and people you could buy them cheap and they have I guess toenail clippers that you could buy that were confiscated or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: whatever that we're like outside of the TSA, Norm. David Egts: at night Gunnar Hellekson: The great and if you're very clever and… David Egts: Know yep. Gunnar Hellekson: you get caught at a Texas airport and… David Egts: Yeah before somebody else does… Gunnar Hellekson: they confiscate some of your goods. David Egts: but yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: All you have to do is wait a week and… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: then go back to the Texas facilities commission Superstore and… David Egts: it'd be a good cheap date night for you. So. Gunnar Hellekson: by yourself back. David Egts: but sort of like antiquing… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: but Not yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Great. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: very few David Egts: And all kind of deals. Yeah, so yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: so if People want to have an email that finds them or… Gunnar Hellekson: the top cards cop shocks cop engine It's good. David Egts: they need to see that Boston Scare them for some nightmare fuel. Where do they need to go? David Egts: Alright Gunnar. I guess we got to figure out where to go next on vacation. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they should go to dgshow.org. That's D and Dave jeans and… David Egts: Yes, absolutely. Gunnar Hellekson: Gunnar show.org. David Egts: All right. I'll schedule a meeting. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah,… David Egts: Yep. Thanks Gunnar by. Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. we can ask the AI. Gunnar Hellekson: Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.