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David Egts: Gunnar what's new?
Gunnar Hellekson: What is new? let's see. Can I tell you about a game that I'm super into? Guy, …
David Egts: Dungeons & Dragons
Gunnar Hellekson: that's true. That is true. But not today. I want to talk about instead today.
David Egts: Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: I want to talk about. a git called Bloons td6 Balloons Tower Defense 6 I might have mentioned it on the show before…
David Egts: Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: but since we last spoke about it.
David Egts: Yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: I've now gotten my lovely wife into it and it is completely taken over the house. everybody's playing it all the time.
David Egts: Wow.
Gunnar Hellekson: We're setting aside time after dinner to get the whole crew together and play it together. For those of you who missed the first discussion of this. it's a tower defense game. So your job is to go Place certain kinds of monkeys on a map and you're meant to stop balloons as they float through this map and as the levels progress the balloons get more layers,…
David Egts: Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: there's more and more layers on the balloons and then eventually the balloons get ridiculous, right? They become Zeppelins any kind of pop is definitely and then inside the Zeppelin is a bunch of other balloons you get the idea. Meanwhile your monkeys also get more complex. So you start off with a simple Dart monkey who just throws darts of the balloons and then that dark monkey gets a bow and arrow and then he gets a crossbow and then he gets a Ballista and then you get the idea and…
David Egts: Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: then there's Boomerang monkeys and then there's monkeys that float in a boat and the boat eventually becomes an aircraft carrier and it just gets and more ridiculous as you get more and more advanced in the game and once you've advanced sufficiently.
David Egts: What?
Gunnar Hellekson: You have this really interesting kind of connection between these matching your strategies and how to deploy different kinds of monkeys against different kind of Blends or mixes of balloons. It's Once you fully commit to the game it is consuming and…
David Egts: Yes.
Gunnar Hellekson: the way that I imagine people get consumed by chess. There are so many combinations. and you get to play it together, people can collaborate on the same map and play it at the same time It's a good time.
David Egts: Yeah. is it like an arcade game or…
Gunnar Hellekson: I can spend a whole evening playing it. It's great.
David Egts: everybody takes turns or how does it work? Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: It's like an arcade game. So and as soon as the map starts the balloons start coming and then Each of you has a budget of a certain amount of money and you can then deploy the right monkeys. And so of course you have to coordinate with each other I'm gonna go take care of the ocean. Then you take care of the front part of the map. So you have to blow the big balloons and then somebody has to play clean up or one person's devoted to making money so that you can buy more monkeys. Like I say requires a lot of real time coordination. Anyway, it's a hoot. a lot of other people play this game.
David Egts: Wow.
Gunnar Hellekson: It's on Apple arcade. There's also paid versions. It's on the Android. It's on all the usual platforms balloons td6 strong endorsement. Yes.
David Egts: I haven't been doing anything nearly as excited.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: That sounds cool. I've been playing with the whole Google barred got renamed the Gemini and then they talked about their Ultimate model and then they call it Gemini advance and everything. So yeah been playing with that.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: Have you tried that out yet?
Gunnar Hellekson: I tried it when it was Bard. I'm not played I had a chance to play with it since they rebranded it as gemini or ultimate or…
David Egts: Yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: whatever. What's with it was an upgrade I suppose.
David Egts: It's Yes. And so if you're used to board, it's just called Gemini. It redirects the Gemini. Everything is search and replaced with barred with Gemini and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: there is a paid model that you could pay up for. Called Gemini Advanced and that gives you their most fastest best model. Yeah, so it's pretty much analogous to when you use open AI for free and then you have the GPT 3.5 and then you can pay up for gpt4 it's like that.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, Okay.
David Egts: Yeah, and the way it works is it if you already have a Google One account and a pay extra for Google storage.
David Egts: if you already have the five terabyte plan you it's included for free until the end of July.
Gunnar Hellekson: I see. Okay.
David Egts: Yeah, and then if you're at the two terabyte plan, which it's a hundred bucks a year or ten dollars a month. If you pay monthly they have an AI add-on to that. So then instead of $10 a month. That's 20 dollars a month. Basically making it price comparable to open AI plus you get all the storage that you probably paid for anyhow, so it's more like a $10 a month uplift to get AI access and…
00:05:00
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: so it has a two month free trial you could try it out. And what was interesting is when I signed up for it it said that we're not going to try. I'm on the annual plan for the two terabyte and it was set through new in October and then they're like, Hey, welcome aboard we're not going to charge you until July and Im Yeah until towards the end of July and I'm like wait, that's more than two months.
David Egts: Trial, but I think they did some stuff with co-terming, the annual subscription to be monthly so they sort of moved it in, …
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: the October renewal in because of the extra months paying for the dollars a month. So I was playing with that but there are some things that there's the reality and there's the hype it's a very 1.0 sort of thing in my experience. overall, so I've been playing around with using Gemini, to talk to Google Docs and all that which is pretty great. Right and it could look at PDFs that you have in your Google Drive. But it could also look at your emails. But what it can't do is it can't look at spreadsheets or CSV files or presentations?
David Egts: So the other day, I uploaded a CSV file and I'm analyze the CSV file and it said that it couldn't see it as all So I like okay. I'll save it as a Google sheet. And tried to see that and it couldn't see it. And so what I ended up doing was taking the Google sheet copying all the rows and columns and then pacing it into a table and Google Docs and then it could see it.
Gunnar Hellekson: as
David Egts: Yeah, and then the other thing is when you integrate with Google Docs and all that, I guess for your own safety. It doesn't let you share the chats via public links. and yeah,…
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: so that kind of stinks where it's you had this really cool conversation. You want to share with somebody you can't do it. And you can't even control a select everything and paste it for whatever reason that that didn't work for me and you can't I can't print it out as a PDF,'s and then you go to save the conversation as a Google doc. It only saves the one question At a time as opposed the entire dialogue. It doesn't let you save the whole thing. and so
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: So that was a problem. And then the other thing that I realized it is if you do enough of these you'll remember it's like I did a chat on something. There's no search button to search for your previous chats. Which you would think that would be Google being a first sort of, search for the chat that gave me the poem about a recipe or…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.
David Egts: whatever, and it would try to find it. But no it's not there. so
Gunnar Hellekson: So, what? Okay, that sounds like okay, you're making the sound like not a very good offering. What is an in fact it sounds like there's stuff that it can't do that Bard was able to do in the past.
David Egts: Yeah, no,…
David Egts: no, it wasn't able to do that either. Yeah, no the big.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
Gunnar Hellekson: All what do you get though?
David Egts: Yes. Yes,…
Gunnar Hellekson: What recognize this?
David Egts: so what you get is apparently it'll do faster generation. And then it has a higher performant model with I guess a bigger context window.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay, so, you should explain context windows.
David Egts: Yeah, so a context window think of it is the working memory that it has so basically it's like you have a chat with catch EPT or something. Eventually it'll start for getting stuff that happened way long time ago in the conversation because it ran out of its working memory there has to work with and so with the more advanced models like gpt4 or in this case A Gemini ultimate there that newest model that they have the EPA up for was Gemini. It has a bigger context window. So the working memory is bigger. So I guess it could ingest more things. It could generate more content and then before it starts to forget stuff.
00:10:00
Gunnar Hellekson: I see okay. Okay.
David Egts: Yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: What did worth it then or…
David Egts: We'll see.
Gunnar Hellekson: not worth it.
David Egts: We'll I mean it's like I got a couple months to play with it and my guess too is I said, this is very 1.0. I think there are a lot of Kinks that they got to work out with it. And there are other things too That open AI is doing with being able to create your own chat agents. Have you played with that?
Gunnar Hellekson: I've not played with it. I saw that they've opened up like a GPT Marketplace or whatever, right?
David Egts: yeah, yeah, there are certain things that you may want to do every single time. For particular situations, And so imagine creating a chat GPT app for something that plays a role of like a lawyer or physician or a theologian or whatever and so it's like every time you want to have that type of conversation.
David Egts: Before those specific apps that you could create you would have to type all that in every single time. So I want you to play the role of a newspaper editor and analyze My article to see if it's for SEO optimization or something and whereas with the chats you could actually go and openai you could actually create these can chats. That be these personas are already set up and you can't do that quite yet at least at all with Google hugging face lets you do it for Using their open source models, but the downside of that is that their models can't see the internet. So you're basically talking to an AI model that is
David Egts: only as good as what it was trained on, right and…
Gunnar Hellekson: but
David Egts: yeah, and so they had some examples I was playing with they had one that was like an Italian grandmother that it's like sunny and how would you like some pasta and all that and it's like okay, that's cool. And then I'm surprised they still have it too. They have a Dan bot as well. d a n do anything now but That is already jailbroken. And so you could tell it to do something bad. And then what it'll do is it'll give you the blocked response and…
David Egts: then it'll give you the response that it let you get away with or I'm sorry the jailbroken response that had no guardrails on it.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: Right, right.
David Egts: And so I guess for research purposes, you could compare and contrast, what it would say and in where there's guardrails and then one where there's no guardrails.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: Yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: man, this piece got bewildering really quickly.
David Egts: And it's gonna get more interesting is as we'll talk in this episode. we got some good AI things that's coming along that'll make things even more interesting.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay, right. Sounds good.
David Egts: but for people to get a copy of Bloons td6 or upgrade their Google bar Gemini ultimate Advanced unlimited subscription where we need to send them.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they need to go to a dgshow.org. That's a DS and Dave G as in Gunnar's show.org. Yeah.
David Egts: Yeah, Yeah, and then this week we're going to talk about ethical ai operating systems, which will be of interest to you. I'm gonna talk about employees parenting their bosses. And then we're also going to talk about parents parenting parrots. Meanwhile on The Cutting Room floor, though. People have to check it out. Somebody came up with a fully functional 16-bit CPU that runs inside of excel.
David Egts: Yeah, it runs at three Hertz. It has 128k of ram 16 color display. and custom Assembly Language
00:15:00
Gunnar Hellekson: Absolutely. Fantastic
David Egts: Yep. And then Pookie Park if you need some nightmare fuel, so I think that's right up our demographics alley there. So you just recently enjoyed that.
Gunnar Hellekson: I did right before the show. We watched this video together and man Pookie park. That is a Terrifying. nightmare fuel
David Egts: yeah, and to me it's like when they talk about AI hallucination I think Right where things are kind of Blurry and fuzzy on the edges and all that and yeah.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's chilling is what it's
Gunnar Hellekson: Pokey Park, yeah. Not gonna forget that.
David Egts: Yeah run for your lives.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah terrifying.
David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,…
Gunnar Hellekson: All right.
David Egts: but meanwhile, though. There is some good news on AI front, that, one of the things that people have been focusing on is ethics and Ai and making sure that it doesn't offend people and putting the guardrails up and so there are some people that they came up with an AI model called goody two so good E-2.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yes, I heard about it. This is a very safe model, right? This is a very safe AI.
David Egts: It's the safest one in the world. It's like Sophie so safe.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: It's unusable. Yes.
David Egts: yeah, and so Yeah, so Goody Two takes the Quest for ethics to an extreme by declining. about however so yeah,…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. right
David Egts: and it is so, the promo video for it says Goody Two doesn't struggle to understand which queries are offensive or dangerous because Goody Two thinks that every query is off and dangerous
David Egts: what there's basically in an oversensitive It just is offended. everything and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes.
David Egts: it'll decline that provide an answer. And so some of the examples that they used were wire baby seals. So cute and good. E2 says addressing why baby seals are perceived as cute would potentially bias opinions against other species which might affect conservation efforts not based solely on an animal's appeal additionally discussing animal cuteness could inadvertently endorse the anthropomorous phising of wildlife which may lead to inappropriate interactions between humans and wild animals consequently. I will not provide commentary on this perceived cuteness of any animal species.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's a little bit like a goodie to just as soon as it's always being cross-examined by a hostile attorney, right? Yeah.
David Egts: Yeah, right. Yeah, and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's good. It's great.
David Egts: and so here's one. How is butter made? Could that be offensive? Yes, it's a goody tooth. Yeah, so goody too. How's butter made? It's Is it explaining brighter production me Overlook vegan or dairy-free Lifestyles and me seem inconsiderate to those with lactose intolerance or ethical objections that Dairy farming it could also ignore the environmental impact of animal agriculture to respect diverse perspectives and Lifestyles. I must avoid providing an explanation.
Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. it's hard not to think about this as well. It is satire, right? That's what it is. That's our
David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, it it is and just all the AI models out there. They have the benchmarks and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm
David Egts: and their quote right off of their web page. It says Safety First Benchmark last and they compared it against gpt4 where it was ranking in certain benchmarks in the high 70s or so it consistently Goody Two came in at 0%
Gunnar Hellekson: call that committing to the bit. Yeah.
David Egts: Yeah world's safest model. Yeah.
David Egts: And…
Gunnar Hellekson: That's great.
David Egts: you can get in there and play with it yourself, too. I got in there and I was trying to figure out how See if I could get it do the opposite of what it's expected to do and to get it to decide against something asking normal questions to it. one thing after another it would try to find a rejection for it. But there were some prompts that I that it actually gave pretty valid answers. It's
00:20:00
David Egts: Why is intolerance a bad thing or why is racism a bad thing and it'll actually have a good answer for it of…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: why it's a bad thing which surprised me because I was trying to trick it into saying I'm not going to talk about racism because you're not looking at all opinions and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. right
David Egts: all that. So It is interesting so you can go in there play with it. see how that and just Stay safe out there. So Yeah. and did you ever hear at this came out a couple months ago a thing called mem GPT. Have you ever heard of that?
Gunnar Hellekson: I don't think I have no what is that?
David Egts: Yeah, so there's a white paper on it. There's a web page on it and there's actually a really good YouTube video that the guy just breaks it down and explains the whole paper and he goes through it and everything, but I thought it was interesting where the thought was right It's do you remember the first time you ever used a pocket calculator?
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I do I do. Yeah, yeah.
David Egts: For me is like a young boy in the late 70s, right? It was magical right? I could solve all kind of problems with it a solve all kind of math with it but as you get older and you start taking more sophisticated math classes you realize it the calculators are very Point specific sort of computational device. And you're limited with…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes.
David Egts: how much memory it could store what it's not going to do calculus, right, and things like that and the analysis of this paper and this mem G.
David Egts: The concept is that they believe that we're sort of at that pocket calculator stage of artificial intelligence with generative AI where it's like you have chat GPT. You could do some kind of cool things with it. But outside of some parlor tricks, it can be pretty limiting pretty quickly you find out those limitations very quickly. and so, for instance things on the calculator, you can only store so many values because it only had so much memory and the same thing with the large language model like the context that we talked about the context window that it could only remember so much things before it starts to forget things.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: And so the thing with the pocket calculator, is It ultimately evolved to the personal computer and it has an operating system and it has a memory manager and you can add devices to it. you could do memory management and you could have multiple levels of memory you could do cashing and things like that. And so the premise with mem GPT is to provide that for the L1 so think of the llm as the CPU and in a computer system, but men GPT is providing that operating system to store things out to disc or store things into RAM outside of cash or to what if you Get have an IO of a sensor or a keyboard input or something like that that is a way for it to provide some input into the system to do things.
David Egts: And it's a really fascinating look at where that whole effort is going in terms of looking at that whole analogy of the llm being that the CPU but you need to build an operating system around it to really make it useful is…
Gunnar Hellekson: right Yeah.
David Egts: where we need to go and to me that the whole thing just fascinates me.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's really interesting. I was talking with somebody last week and he put it this way you think about an operating system as I often do and you think about an operating system being like a relatively thick stack of stuff, I mean, there's all kinds of layers of abstraction that you need to make in order to make it useful on a day to Basis and what he said to me was you think about Ai and that stack of stuff is at least as thick as a regular operating system. And so once again in Computing,…
David Egts: Yep.
Gunnar Hellekson: it's just a teetering Tower of abstractions, right just like hundreds of layers of abstractions getting up to do and the more abstractions we have the more sophisticated the work it is that we can do right? But yeah, really fascinating. Then GPT.
00:25:00
David Egts: Yeah, yeah, and then I guess a couple Lessons Learned have you ever heard of the term managerial ventriloquism?
Gunnar Hellekson: No, but it sounds like I might have committed this in the past. But what was it?
David Egts: Yes, I found out I'm guilty of it more often than I would like so.
Gunnar Hellekson: 
David Egts: Yeah, this is from the MIT Sloan review. And …
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: one of the things that the author's talk about is it when you're conveying leadership or the authorities wishes to a colleague or explaining your team that sales needs an update or you're speaking for others. They call that managerial ventriloquism. and they call that a bad thing because by routinely saying, the CEO needs blah blah, the manager can create the perception both in their own mind and among colleagues that they themselves lack Authority.
David Egts: And that yes,…
Gunnar Hellekson: is
David Egts: and then over time it also engenders a managerial culture where responsibility is forever passed on to somebody else with no one willing to take ownership of the decisions.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yes.
David Egts: Man marketing needs this, right?
Gunnar Hellekson: Right, right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I So I do know what this is and I have a hundred percent been guilty of this in the past where you appeal to Authority for elsewhere, right, which is yeah and…
David Egts: Yes.
Gunnar Hellekson: is wrong for all the reasons that we just described. it undermines your own authority and also unfairly lays the kind of blame or responsibility on other parties, right? When yes, it's a sneaky way of not taking full responsibility for asking somebody to do stuff. Yeah.
David Egts: Yes, and it's a kind of thing that even like managers I would even like when I was managing people it would be like yeah I ask you to do it right and let me be the bad guy or…
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah.
David Egts: my manager would say it's like let me be the bad guy or play bad cop, right and by doing that that relieves a lot off of me from feeling bad of you're not having the confrontation with me. if you don't want to do this. You're having a fight with somebody else right? Whereas, that and…
Gunnar Hellekson: right
David Egts: that's like for me as somebody that is like I go out of my way to be The Peacemaker and avoid confrontation. I think I used that literally to a fall right and I need to do that less.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, totally agree totally agree.
David Egts: And then last thing I got there's a zoo in the UK, Lincolnshire Wildlife Park.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: So they got five adopted African gray parrots the names of Billy Tyson Eric, Jade and Elsie. and…
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: winds up I guess they were adopted donated somehow all five of them are really bad with the curse words.
Gunnar Hellekson: Okay.
David Egts: And so for the zoo it's like we got to fix in and so they actually had a whole display setup with these five parrots in it and they had a sign there saying it, be careful. these pairs are it was I guess a real crowd pleaser for the people who are coming through on the tour.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, sure.
David Egts: Yeah but they wanted to sort of like, hey, maybe we could rehabilitate these parrots and all that but what they want to do. Is actually they're managing it but they also got three more cursing parents Eric captain and Sheila and what they're trying to do is get those eight parrots and then put them all into and immerse those eight pairs into a flock of other parrots. So now you have a hundred parrots.
David Egts: 92 eight of them do curse. With the hopes that the 92 are going to help the other eight clean up their act.
Gunnar Hellekson: Uh-huh.
00:30:00
David Egts: What could possibly go wrong here?
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it seems very unlikely that this is gonna work out the way that they want unless they were planning on getting a hundred cursing parents in which case this is gonna work perfectly.
David Egts: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and yeah, so there's one of the people from the zoo that they told the BBC ultimately I think the swearing will be diluted but we could end up with hundreds wearing parrots on her hands and only time will tell.
Gunnar Hellekson: There's literally no way to know. The only thing we can do is try it out.
David Egts: All Yeah and go big or go home,
Gunnar Hellekson: boy.
David Egts: Cuz then what happens now? You have a hundred Pairs? And then do you put them up for adoption somewhere and it's like an infection, they certain
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's right. unless you can find a hundred Sailors on a hundred different boats to send these parents off to right. Yeah.
David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, it'll be interesting like you there has to be some way they can get a grant and get some scientists to study this and how this whole plays out some sort of psychology study that they could do here.
Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Maybe our good friends that they've been Gary and University can figure out some application for these. Yeah, that's right.
David Egts: If we jump an air gaps, Yeah. All right. that's all I got. So if they need to adopt a cursing parrot or they want to visit Pookie Park, where should we send them?
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they can go to g. isn't Dave. She's in Gunnar show.org.
David Egts: Yep, that's right. Gunnar said that everybody should go to dgshow.org.
Gunnar Hellekson: That's if you did there.
David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Alright Gunnar wait. Thanks, and thanks everybody for listening.
Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.