This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. David Egts: All Gunnar what's new? Gunnar Hellekson: What's new? I recently spent several days playing Dungeons and Dragons with Soren and Dave I'm here to report that the technology has changed for Dungeons and Dragons. David Egts: Yeah, that's what they got a d 21 die or Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, in a miracle of geometry. They make love with the 21-sided die. No, I have to imagine this was a response to covid at least in part, but David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: The good people at Wizards of the Coast to published dungeons of dragons have a set of online tools called D&D Beyond if you're a D&D player, you're rolling your eyes because I'm probably the last person to figure this out but it's a very clever set of tools they've built to kind of cut through a lot of the paperwork in bureaucracy of the Dungeons & Dragons game. So in the tool you can for example roll a die, and then everyone else can see that die roll at the same time that you can so you're playing over FaceTime or playing over Zoom or something that you can do that if you have your character sheets loaded up in the computer you can and you need to do a roll for sleight of hand. For example, you can just click on the slide of hand ability of your character and it will automatically do the die roll for you and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: with all the mod. virus and whatever else so like I said Gunnar Hellekson: And I was wear Leery of these only tools because I was worried that they were going to kind of turn D&D more into a video game. what I mean automated too much. But it seems like they've done just the right amount of work to kind of streamline the traditional game experience without kind of you still get the feeling of clacky dice rolling on tables when something dangerous happens. David Egts: Yes. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's kind of what we're so it's great. David Egts: Okay, so you are rolling real dice or… Gunnar Hellekson: That's good. David Egts: is it virtual? Dice in the okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Virtual yeah, but the virtual device make a clacking sound. Which satisfying yeah. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right, and I've also David Egts: Yeah, because I can imagine there's good. Gunnar Hellekson: good. David Egts: I can imagine there is the Nostalgia and all that of the book and the Tactical feel of the dice and all that it's do you so you don't miss that. Gunnar Hellekson: No, I don't miss that at all. and in fact having tried to be the dungeon master for three nine year olds at the same time. you're desk is basically covered in reference books and you've got a sheet of paper next to you trying to keep track of everything that's going on. David Egts: wow. Gunnar Hellekson: And then how many hit points does a bug bear have and then what's the armor class of the pseudo dragon and all this other stuff and to have all that stuff as easily accessible as a Google search Is significant Improvement on the experience? so that product David Egts: Yeah, yeah. is it a service you pay for or is it they make their money in other ways? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you can buy digital versions of the books. That's number one and then that locks that content in the tool so that for example,… David Egts: okay. Gunnar Hellekson: you cannot create a forest known unless you have purchased the player's handbook digitally. So that's one way to get you and then the other way they get you is they charge you money a subscription for being able to run for example more than six characters at a time or being able to unlock certain features of the campaigns that you create stuff like that. So a little bit complicated to navigating to kind of like it is not intuitive the way that they want to take your money. But once you figure out their internal logic, it kind of makes sense and doesn't mean at all to pay for the privilege because I get so much value out of it. David Egts: Yeah. and… Gunnar Hellekson: So yeah fully endorsed D&D Beyond Okay. David Egts: do you think there are still the purest that it's like they got to do it the old school way. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, among them. My son who is not interested in using the computer assisted… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: until he much rather have physical dice in his hand and be rolling those and then have me take care of the paperwork… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which of course I'm happy to do now that I've been aided by these robots, right? So Yeah,… David Egts: Okay. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: that's what's going on. David Egts: cuz I can imagine there's value a nerd cred thing of knowing how many hit points a goblin has or whatever and you almost commit that stuff to memory instead of offloading it to a computer to just worry about that. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, And although it's also true that I'm here. I am inadvertently memorizing very obscure facts about halflings and the Rogue class level structure. 00:05:00 David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So you kind of can't avoid some of that stuff but what? I found is it especially when playing with a nine year old what I found is that being a stickler for the rules is less important than just telling a good story. And so that's what we're here for so. David Egts: Yeah, that's why you're there. right. Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep, that's Yeah, and hey speaking of good stories. over the recent break. I spent a lot of time with my apple pencil and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: and practicing with the writing on the apple pencil on the tablet. This is something I haven't really done in a while but now I suddenly find myself doing it all the time and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it has significantly improved my note taking. so Especially when you're using a computer right or… David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: a tablet your draws like I'm gonna type because it'll just be faster. It'll be better, but I'm telling you that the act of committing something to memory and the act of active listening It is a different experience doing it with a pencil as opposed to typing it on computer and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: I couldn't tell you why but it is different. David Egts: Yeah, no their studies that I guess prove that and then there's also The signaling that you do that it's like, is that person like checking or email while I'm talking to him? It's like no I'm taking notes. Honestly, honest … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. David Egts: and I… Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: where yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm literally leaning forward to go pay closer attention to what you're saying. Yes. I totally agree. David Egts: Yeah, what are you using for the note-taking app? Gunnar Hellekson: I'm using a popular slash unpopular choice. I feel like the Hallmark of a good app. It's an app that has tens or… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: hundreds of thousands of downloads. and everyone is furious about Gunnar Hellekson: because to me they wanted to work exactly and… David Egts: They want it to work. Gunnar Hellekson: so that's a bunch of people who are So invested in this app that they are angry that it doesn't do things that they wanted to do. And that's anyway,… David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: so I followed that rule and I found good notes and sure enough. It is enraging with certain things. but for the most part it does exactly what I needed to do. Good news. That's great. David Egts: Interesting. Yeah, and it's funny. You mentioned that because I had a Kindle Oasis that I recently just sold on eBay yesterday because I got a Kindle scribe it's like a 10 inch screen which is huge and I was like David Egts: I'll get it if I don't like it I could return it because having the bigger screen real estate is kind of nice, but I was just getting sort of tired of I want to hand right the notes, but I wanted to do it digitally and I don't want to go further into the Apple ecosystem and get a pencil and a iPad and all that. So it's like I figure I'll do it two for one. I'll grade it and I really enjoyed that the Scribe because it's the Tactical feel of the pencil on the screen it feels like you're writing on paper with a pencil like a number two pencil? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. David Egts: And it's not like I don't know about the apple pencil, but just I've had one that it's like you're writing on a glass screen and it just doesn't feel quite the same and it feels like the pixels are underneath the glass… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. David Egts: where it's like the ink is right on the surface of the screen. It feels like Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean and I did a prize my options. And finally decided that I like one of these ink writers. a remarkable is another thing is another popular one. David Egts: Yeah, yep. Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm intrigued by that and I know exactly what you mean about this the feeling of a piece of plastic against slick glass It's not satisfying to the senses on the other hand as you say I've already sunk all this money into these tools. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And so I might as well because they use them. maybe later I can persuade myself to go by a proper. Yank scribe something like that, but not David Egts: and the cool thing for the Kindle scribe is that the price is dropped they have Black Friday deals. It's like 239 for the entry model. Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: and there's no subscription you got to pay for, I think with remarkable you got to pay for a subscription to use your service on top of it and the 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you gotta pay for everything on that thing. You got to pay for the pencil. You got to pay for the subscription. You got to put them in their that's… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: how they get you that's how they get you. David Egts: and then it's not like they give away the handle and sell you the blades. It's the remarkable itself is several hundred dollars. Whereas I'm sure you… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Kindle subsidizes it assuming you're gonna buy books and they're gonna make money that way on the back end But I'm pleased with it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: So We'll see how it goes. And the other thing is there's a book that just came out that I really enjoyed as called Julia. And so you remember the book 1984 by George Orwell? Gunnar Hellekson: Gunnar Hellekson: Is this the story of 1984 just told from the point of view of Julia? David Egts: Yes. Yes. And it is written by this lady. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: It's a brand new book and I highly recommend it. if you like the darkness of 1984 that is hard to replicate and modern books that I've seen it's Pitch Perfect with that, and it's the same character same universe and you hear what's going on in her head as opposed to Winston Smith said Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I love it. David Egts: Highly recommend it. it has some adult stuff in it. So, just I don't want anybody to blush when they read it and curse me, But it's in there. So yeah. Yeah, so yeah this week jeez… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: what we're gonna dive a little bit with talk about David Egts: a risk 5 and open source and A government barrier raising with that we're going to talk about we're also going to be talking about. David Egts: The AI executive order that came out and get our take on that and then we also are going to talk about improvements to Windows 11 and how we can apply that to the next version of Route. So, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: All right, a little competitive analysis. I'm here for it. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. so to get all that and all that good stuff we're doing into some people. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, we can send them to DG show dot org. That's d and Dave she is in Gunnar's show.org. David Egts: And so, Cutting Room floor. We got some good stuff. There's how you always have the government selling Surplus property and all that there isn't. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, sure. David Egts: So there's a surveillance van. That was NASA's that somebody was selling so it's A little over 26 Grand they're selling for so imagine this custom 70s looking kind of van, but just decked out with all kind of surveillance equipment. I don't know why NASA has a surveil stuff, but I guess they need it anymore, but it's there. And retractable roof, too. So, what's not to one? Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's nice. Yeah, I mean that sounds handy for if you are trying to snuff out news of the alien arrival this would be perfect for black bag jobs. Yeah. Okay. David Egts: Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah. and then also other government news the consumer product safety commission. You can listen to this in your van if you want. They just dropped a new album on product safety. So the album is called We're safety now, haven't we and it's six genres spanning safety focused songs, and I guess seven if you count the one that's also got a Spanglish version. And so there's a pop number. There's so reggaeton about smoke alarms and it's all good. You can check it out. And then the last yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: that's great that I tell you my favorite thing about this consumer product safety commission album one of them all bangers. David Egts: go ahead. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: all bangers David Egts: and that's how they roll. Yeah, and then lastly we got the Asic necklace. So how would you describe it? 00:15:00 Gunnar Hellekson: I would describe it a oversized amulet in the Flavor Flav style from Public Enemy,… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but the amulet rather than being A gold or silver or… David Egts: or a clock Gunnar Hellekson: it's instead an Asic wafer. Yeah, that's great. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. It's yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: it's very very hip hop and it's like I want to see this guy do one of a pro wrestling championship belt, but with an Asic in it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, for real. David Egts: no big Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that would be Great. David Egts: Yeah, all So, we got a little bit of follow-up friend of the show Dwight Chamberlain. He mentioned he's like, hey, have you ever heard of the Ben and Mark show? And I'm like what and so I guess, from Ben Horowitz and Mark Andreessen. They have their own podcast now called the Ben and Mark show. Gunnar Hellekson: I'll get our lawyers on that. David Egts: I know the robot orders. yeah It's like our patented intellectual properties. I just feel violated. So it's just two guys talking about technology and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: Trends and I guess weird stuff. They see on the internet. Gunnar Hellekson: I feel like we have an implicit trademark on the two first names Plus show formulation David Egts: Yeah, especially when it comes to podcasts about obscure internet phenomena. You would think it's like we're getting disrupted here. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right and disrupted by significantly more wealthy competitors. Actually I should know. David Egts: Do they have anything better to do seriously? Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: And the answer is no there feces. David Egts: Apparently not. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: No, they don't have anything better to do. David Egts: yeah, so the other thing risk five are you familiar with that? Gunnar Hellekson: I am extremely familiar with risk 5. Yes. Yes. So this is the emergent microchip architecture that is now suddenly gaining popularity in part because of its openness. Yes. Yes. David Egts: yes, yeah, David Egts: So back in the day if you remember your Unix Wars right before Windows NT comes along and window, right all the computers that were the workstations like your sons. You're still looking Graphics at decks and all that. We're risk based processors reduce instruction set Computing and then all sudden like the Intel and Windows Microsoft they team up with, Windows NT totally disrupt that market and just the volume that intel was able to kick out with Microsoft really put the risk architecture on the back burner and I've always been a fan of risk just because of the Simplicity of it and because you could make the chips very very simple, right because you have a smaller number of instructions where with the x86 architecture. You have a lot more of complicated instructions. David Egts: Or one instruction can do 10 different things at one time as opposed to having a simpler chipset or a simpler instruction set that can do things in more steps, but it's a lot simpler which allows a chip to be smaller which allows it to go faster and you could really crank up the clock speed on it because it's smaller and it doesn't give off as much. Because it's so simple. But it's xa6 dominated for the longest time and risk five came along which is an implementation open Hardware where it's basically a David Egts: a Berkeley like license, right? It's not like the that's a viral open source license. and so people could take the risk designs. They could take the basic things. They can make their own chips. They can make their own accelerators. They can keep things proprietary. If they want. They can give it backs about an Apache license. But what's interesting though? Is that sort of like Disrupting a lot of US foreign policy towards China. David Egts: Where with Intel and AMD having the dominant market share with x86 processors, the US from a sanction standpoint could really, her China from that perspective. Whereas with risk five being a viable architecture that is going from microcontrollers to storage controllers and other things like that to actual being full-blown processors and computer systems that is causing us legislators to object to it and is even to the point where the risk five organization they move from the United States to Switzerland announced a swiss-based company to not get in the middle of us versus China sort of things. 00:20:00 David Egts: And what's interesting is there representative Mike Gallagher that chairman of the house select committee on China. He is saying that he would like to have the Department of Commerce require any American person or company to receive an export license prior to engaging with the PRC entities on risk five technology and one quote that he has is I fear that our export control laws are not equipped to deal with the challenge of Open Source software whether Advance semi conductor designs like Risk 5 or in the area of AI and dramatic paradigm shift is needed. David Egts: So there's a lot to unpack there. But what's your take on this Gunnar from open source? And should it be open? I say laser fair or what would you do as a diplomat? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, so if how there's a lot of layers to this, But let's just take the plain language of what he said there at the end as I fear. Our export control laws are not equipped to deal with the challenge of Open Source software. the export control laws Which are meant to protect domestic Technologies the best way to protect them if you want to protect a domestic technology which is to say not let other people get access to it is here's a good place to start is not putting it under an open source license. this is the government trying to impose additional constraints on a decision that the private company has already made, right? So it's already going to be an uphill battle, right? David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: I think that I mean, of course the US is entitled to do whatever it wants and it could go put Draconian export control laws in place around whether it's risk five or AI or encryption, right and in the end, I'm not sure that it will matter even a little bit now what they said earlier what he said in the first quote that you read which is require any American person or company to receive an export license prior to engaging if the People's Republic of China entities on risk-class Technologies specifically that is a standard trade policy kind of a thing that people can do right if you want to go work with this person. Then you got to go get some paperwork signed or for your importance person all kinds of stuff Falls in this category, right? Gunnar Hellekson: Munitions encryption all kinds of other stuff, right? So that's not totally where I think what's interesting is him invoking the open source part of the seems really important to them. and I think that's a red herring. I don't think that matters very much whether it's open source, or whether it's proprietary. the thing that they are trying to control is the PRC is access to this particular technology and it just so happens that open source makes that much more difficult than it was a proprietary technology but the rules that they want to put around the same. David Egts: Yeah, but what do you think about it's like you have to have a license. does somebody have to have a license think about the Linux kernel right where it's almost like they get repository for the Linux kernels almost like a drop box or… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: a dead drop for code. David Egts: Right? and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. Yeah. David Egts: so it's very low barrier from a permission standpoint or it's like Does it mean by engaging with the PRC right where it's like, we're working on a community or working with a community. We're not working with this company, And then the other company that maybe Chinese could take that technology and use it. They're welcome to do it. but I can imagine it's like Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: what happens, you would then need a license if maybe money is changing hands or somebody is Paying somebody to develop that technology, but if it's like people in their own companies just scratching their own itch and all that and being able to put it out there for others to use there shouldn't be any harm in that. 00:25:00 Gunnar Hellekson: I mean there's some the president here is I mean one of the reasons why so there's certain kinds of Technologies which are normally under export control restrictions. But if they are open source technologies that is if the code is already available, then it doesn't make sense to put an export restriction on it. And so they basically call them all again on themselves and if it's open source, and we're not gonna regulate it in that way we'll only regulate the proprietary technology. and that's kind of how they've threaded the needle in the past. Like I said here and I'm sure that there is some Commerce ruling or I mean here this is a congressman saying what he thinks the Commerce Department should do so I don't think he's probably not using Gunnar Hellekson: Legally sound language, right but your point about requiring a license to engage with the PRC. David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: I am sure that there is a whole set of administrative law over somewhere in the comment Department that will tell you exactly what engaging with the PRC might be. Right and you're right. It's like money Changing Hands contracts getting signs stuff like that. So I think the details matter as far as this goes, but I think overall I mean the challenge for all countries and in this case, it's the US and China because the Machamp for all Trump is that in a world of Open Source software or of open Hardware Designs Keeping a Secret is not a great way of maintaining a competitive advantage. David Egts: Yeah, it's not a long-term. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And not a long-term strategy, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. And by That's true for proprietary or open source software. right famously,… David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: like making technology proprietary several rocket designs has not prevented China from benefiting from them, right so would say I say I think the open source part of the story is kind of a red herring. I think it's really much more about The challenge of maintaining a technology advantage in a world where it is very easy for information to be disseminated. David Egts: Yep for yeah, and then Yeah, the other thing that happened was the AI executive order. and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: did you get a chance to study that? Gunnar Hellekson: I am not studied it deeply although I did really enjoy the interview on the hard Fork podcast with a Altman Sam Allman they interviewed him too. David Egts: Okay. that one. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, the interviewed him two days before he was fired and it was as a product guy. It was very interesting to listen to him talk about this product because he definitely thinks like a product manager. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: But I digress no I did not read these were very carefully, but what did you learn? David Egts: and to me when executive orders come out, it was interesting. It's like I didn't study at that closely knowing that it was extremely long but the other thing too was that there was a criticism that I actually did study that and I had the Lincoln to it in the show notes and I don't say it's scathing but it did raise a lot of really good points and the first thing that I thought of that the author brought up is that an executive order is it's not legislation. David Egts: And first of all, it could be overturned by the next president. and that's not good whenever you can have things change very quickly and when people are in the private sector trying to have some sort of sense of stability in terms of what the guidance should be and it's like should David Egts: Weighed out the next term for the president and they overturned or whatever. So that's The other thing he said was that the executive orders by general in general are quick and dirty, So they're done very I don't want to say hastily but it's not done in a transparent sort of way as opposed to on the floor of Congress where people are debating things and all that and there's less accountability in there in terms of who said what and who did what we're this executive order just pops out. David Egts: And he did some other things too in the criticism saying that it's like why is AI so magical, we didn't do this for microprocessors. Yeah, we didn't do it for calculators all the other things that have come out. We didn't do it for the internet, right and he also said that it comes from the angle of a Where the internet was Vision of Hope and this hopeful creative thing that's going to change the world where the AI executive order comes from a doom and gloom everything's gonna be ruined because Ai and we need to control it instead of you got your internet and' let everybody have the freedom to figure stuff out and as people discover real problems will fix them. 00:30:00 David Egts: But I just thought that it was a very interesting take on and it was also a very long criticism too. but what do you think in terms of executive orders in general compared to legislation? Gunnar Hellekson: So executive word. I mean those are basically signaling devices, right and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: to write it's not binding in a way that legislation is finding and it's rarely as deeply considered as legislation might be right for that reason. I think that it's a Gunnar Hellekson: it has signaling value, It means that the administration is taking seriously what it perceives to be risk from AI development and feels motivated to do something and I think that is a signal to the market that this will not go unregulated and then regulating it further is certainly on the table and I have to imagine that what few parts of it that I read was, meant to at least inspire a public conversation about what kind of regulations necessary So no. Okay fine from what I understand. Yeah. It doesn't have very many teeth then also some of the constraints that are put in place are kind of silly right but I do think that dismissing using the old everybody panicked when Gunnar Hellekson: pencil's got a Racers everybody Panic that everybody would forget how there's lots of little tropes that come out went up when a new technology emerges and feels threatening and… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: it seems like more of that where it's going to extremely dismissive and kind of like, these people clutching their pearls over the future, but AI does feel qualitatively different than something like the internet something like, microprocessors in the sense that it has certain qualities that these other things don't have. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: There's the answer which I was a philosopher and I could enumerate these carefully, but I think part of it is. The answer of homeworkism the extent to which the work of the AI can be confused with human work I think is significant. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: We talked about a bunch of the show, And I also think that we are only just now learning about the consequences of having these tools And I think a little bit of caution could go quite a long way in making sure that we don't accidentally make several mistakes. And I mean in Sam Allman actually talks about this in his interview, which is the interview, of course like super self serving and he was sort of saying advancing an agenda, but I think there was some wisdom and what he said was they are intentionally rolling out the capabilities that they have internally they're rolling them out slowly because they feel like Gunnar Hellekson: Gunnar Hellekson: AI is a co-creation with society and culture they have to release some of this technology and then society and culture has to adapt and the more technology comes out and then we have to create compensating systems, right? and even Sam Altman himself is an advocate for some kind of Regulation right for this reason because it feels like dumping the full Freight of AI disruption on society all at once he would consider irresponsible. on the other hand one could also say that what he's doing is pulling up the ladder behind him and… David Egts: exactly Gunnar Hellekson: any regulation is getting any regulating. It's going to increase the Gunnar Hellekson: any regulation is going to increase the barrier to entry for any future competitors. So I don't know. I am enjoying the fact that we are talking about it. I think that's maybe the most important thing. this is a real thing that we should about figuring out what risks need to what risks can be mitigated later and I think for the first time in history if we can actually roll out a technology in a careful and responsible way, that would be great. David Egts: yeah, yeah, and I think in defense of the executive order, too, it's like hey, we got to put something out there and like you said start having the conversation because if we wait for something legislatively to happen given how divided things are. it's like we're gonna be like gray goo but the time you that they come to any sort of consensus or agreement on anything. 00:35:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's hard to write legislation when you're covered in paper clips. David Egts: Yeah, yeah Yeah, wrapping up some windows 11 that They have and I guess a new feature that allows you to play a video game while it's installing. Gunnar Hellekson: Does it really take that long to install? David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's my first question is if I had enough spare programmer engineering cycle where I could go embed a video game in my installer. I don't know. I might do something crazy. ask my installer team to make that installer go faster. instead of trying to build Tetris David Egts: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Call me crazy. David Egts: and that's the thing. to me that's like you're fixing. the problem the wrong way and I've just been spoiled by Ralph or over it, decade in terms of it's like you do the update and while you're working right and then It's like something change with a kernel so I got to reboot and then you reboot you're back in but it's disappointingly easy and uneventful where even on a Mac to do an update on the Mac. It's like Spinning you got to walk away for a while and it could take a half hour to update and windows is even worse and when it's so bad that you got to actually put a game in it. think of the productivity loss that's happening right there. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, That's right. and I think my real answer is As you say the fact of waiting for and install in the first place, that's where the work should go and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: so doing things like playing with different flavors of immutability to make upgrading just a matter of a reboot. Right? And by the way reducing boot times would be a great way also to improve the installer experience. There's lots of stuff that you can do although I admire that I do like them thinking out outside of the box and kind of expanding What is possible to do right because it would never have occurred to me to put anything. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Even if that installer. But that's a cute idea. I mean, it's great. I'm sure they got a few articles written about Windows 11 as a result and good for them. It's great. David Egts: there's a flight simulator inside of excel. Gunnar Hellekson: He did what is up with the engineering Surplus over at Microsoft? That's what I want to know. David Egts: Yeah, yeah, So yeah, that's yes. So if so that aside though for Rel 10, what game would you put in the installer? Gunnar Hellekson: Man, what game would I put in the installer for real 10? It would be some civilization. David Egts: civilization Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I mean civilization. That's an easy one. I think it'd be cool to have I feel for a Rel 10 it would be something like Monument Valley. You know what I mean? Like an Escher style puzzle solver, right? I think that would be kind of fun. David Egts: mmm Gunnar Hellekson: I think that would be on brand for real. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. To me be you'd use the vi cursor Keys, to control it. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Gunnar Hellekson: Wait. No. I got a better answer. No the game that would be embedded in the real ten installer would be a red hat certified engineer certification exam. David Egts: . David Egts: There you go. Yeah. Yeah, you can install it while you're installing it. Gunnar Hellekson: Okay, that's right. Yeah in oroboros, that's right. David Egts: Yeah. There you go. nice David Egts: All right, that's what we got. So Gunnar if people need to, figure out how to build their own Asic necklace or pro wrestling belt and they want to pick up their own surveillance van from NASA. Where should we send them? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, if you would like to surveil your friends or listen to that Banger of an album because consumer product safety commission. You can go to dgshow.org that's deals and Dave. She's in Gunnar show.org. David Egts: awesome Okay, Gunnar thanks and thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.