Ep. 4-06 Environmental Justice  | Everything's Political
[00:00:00] Chloe Desir (ICC): I've learned that environmental justice is, for me, essentially the right to work, play, and live in clean air. Um, I'd also say that environmental justice is intersectional as well, because it comes in with so many other things that we don't typically consider when we're talking about environmental justice.
[00:00:18] Chloe Desir (ICC): We're also talking about, you know, the rights for people in a civil way when we're talking about that as well. Climate justice, all of it goes hand in hand. 
[00:00:28] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I agree with everything that Chloe said, but just to piggyback off of that, I think that, um, having the same amount of access to that clean air, that clean water, that quality food because of safe soil and things like that is a big part of environmental justice.
[00:00:46] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I feel like the justice portion is about it being fair for everybody.
[00:00:56] Junius Williams: Hello. I'm Junius Williams, your host on Everything's Political. And today, as usual, we have some nice, interesting conversation for you. And my co host is Francesca Larson from Mosaic. We're here today to talk about something we call environmental justice. And it's not just us calling that because that's what it is, but we're going to hear more about that from our guests.
[00:01:26] Junius Williams: We have, uh, Fajr Kegler. And we have Chloe Desir, very interesting names, we won't get into the name games. Clearly, very unique ladies who have a job to do, so hello to you. 
[00:01:49] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Hello. 
[00:01:50] Chloe Desir (ICC): Thanks for having us. Definitely, 
[00:01:52] Junius Williams: thank you. Where do you work? 
[00:01:56] Chloe Desir (ICC): Where do I work? I work in the Ironbound of Newark, in a four square mile community, right near the port, and right near New York, right?
[00:02:05] Chloe Desir (ICC): That's true. That's true. That's 
[00:02:06] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): true. And I work in the South Ward, uh, at South Ward Environmental Alliance, so we're 
[00:02:13] Junius Williams: localized to that area particularly. So what do you guys have in common? Is there one word that you can use? 
[00:02:20] Chloe Desir (ICC): One word, the environment. Actually it's active. We organized? Yes. Organized? Yes.
[00:02:27] Junius Williams: That title I heard that you're organizers. Yes. 
[00:02:30] Francesca Larson: We love that here. 
[00:02:31] Junius Williams: So what is environmental justice to you? 
[00:02:36] Chloe Desir (ICC): To me, well, um, since working in the Iron Bound, I work with an Iron Bound community corporation. Um, I've learned that environmental justice is. For me, essentially, the right to work, play, and live in clean air.
[00:02:51] Chloe Desir (ICC): Um, I'd also say that environmental justice is intersectional as well. Because it comes in with so many other things that we don't typically consider. When we're talking about environmental justice, we're also talking about, you know, the rights for people in a civil way, when we're talking about that as well.
[00:03:07] Chloe Desir (ICC): Climate justice, all of it, goes hand in hand. 
[00:03:12] Junius Williams: How about you, Fadjen? 
[00:03:13] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I agree with everything that Chloe said, but just to piggyback off of that, I think that, um, having the same amount of access to that clean air, that clean water, that quality food because of safe soil and things like that is a big part of environmental justice.
[00:03:29] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I feel like the justice portion is about it being fair for everybody to have access to what's healthy and what's, what's natural and what's, what's, what isn't tainted by man made. 
[00:03:44] Junius Williams: What are the problems with the environment in the East Ward and in the South Ward where you both work? 
[00:03:53] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Air pollution. I feel like particularly in New Jersey and in North New Jersey, air pollution is one of our biggest issues.
[00:04:02] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): And I think that, um, organizing community members to not only educate, but like to empower them to speak on what's affecting them there. Thousands and thousands of kids with asthma. Parents don't know why they have asthma. And the reason why is, is within our control. And a lot of people don't, don't acknowledge that.
[00:04:29] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): They don't think that they have a say in what goes on in their communities. In addition to air quality being a major contributor in the South Ward specifically, I think that water Equity is a big thing. Um, yes, the mayor has done a lot of things to try and minimize the effects of lead being inside of our pipes, um, lead service lines and things of that nature.
[00:04:51] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): But, um, all is not complete. Yeah, there's always more work to do. There's more work to be done there. So people who are being affected by, um, the negligent. Ways of old architecture and things of that nature. So I think that that's also a really big factor because that also contributes to a lot of the health problems that we're seeing nowadays.
[00:05:11] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): How did you get involved? I guess, word of mouth. Like, I've been, like I mentioned before, I've been organizing for a while and in different aspects. So, uh, I was kind of recommended, uh, to the position. I, like, I applied and things like that, but I was taking a break from school, um, and I wanted to get into something productive.
[00:05:37] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): So I kind of just found my way into this role, but 
[00:05:43] Junius Williams: I'm glad that I did. Was there something in your life or in your family's life that made you, uh, come to say, well, I have to become a change agent.
[00:06:01] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I would say yes, shortly before I. Uh, became, or began working with Suya. I had lived in Newark from the time I was born all the way up until I was about 19, 20. I'm 21 now. And my mom had just moved out to Edison. And I was like, I'm gonna, Stay in Newark. And my whole family is like, but why? Like, you're moving to a, like, she's moving to a better place.
[00:06:29] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Getting out the hood is like a big thing in my community. And I used to work with the city, so I was at City Hall and I understood a lot about New York. Um, the different perspectives of the residents who want the city to do more and the city who's trying to do the most that they can do. And um, something about having seen both sides, especially like working in administration and organizing, made me want to be a part of the change because I saw it happening.
[00:07:01] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): It may not have been happening as fast as people would like it to happen, but, um, I I wanted to stay in Newark and do something about it so that people wouldn't want to run away from Newark in the future. 
[00:07:13] Junius Williams: And Chloe, what's your analysis of the problem? 
[00:07:17] Chloe Desir (ICC): Analysis of the problem of environmental racism? 
[00:07:21] Junius Williams: You introduced another word.
[00:07:25] Junius Williams: I was talking about We've got water 
[00:07:26] Francesca Larson: equity, environmental justice, climate justice, and environmental racism. I 
[00:07:31] Chloe Desir (ICC): mean, yeah, the reason why we have inequity with the clean water that we don't have is because of environmental racism. Definitely. I think those things go hand in hand overall. Um, I feel like when it comes to air quality and air pollution, that's something that we focus on as well.
[00:07:47] Chloe Desir (ICC): Considering the fact that we have so many emitters of pollution, when we talk about incinerators that are burning trash, not only from New Jersey, but also from New York. And then we have three power plants in the midst of a chemical corridor, is what they call it, in the Ironbound. And the proposal of a fourth one coming in, which is a problem in and of itself.
[00:08:09] Chloe Desir (ICC): Um, I think that all of those things add to the reason why we have statistics like one in four children in Newark having asthma. 
[00:08:18] Francesca Larson: What brought you to this work? 
[00:08:19] Chloe Desir (ICC): What brought me to this work? I mean, the honest answer is indeed. 
[00:08:32] Chloe Desir (ICC): I was listening to you and we actually have a similar way to get into organizing, actually, after, um, When I was going into high school, I became more aware of things that were happening politically.
[00:08:44] Chloe Desir (ICC): Um, when I was in high school is when Trump was elected. Yes. Um, and that was definitely a spark for me to become more aware of what's going on, um, with my community, especially, um, when I graduated. College. And while I was in college, I actually was doing internships, um, in administration and in government.
[00:09:04] Chloe Desir (ICC): And I felt like the other side was a bigger agent of change, to be frank. Um, and I felt like I was able to do more hands on work, um, with the perspective that I have, which is very like, I mean, Some would say radical, but I think it's right in this realm of what we need to be getting done. Yeah, 
[00:09:23] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): yeah, you gotta be radical to make a change.
[00:09:25] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): You can't, you can't, the old ways don't work. 
[00:09:29] Junius Williams: So what do you do? 
[00:09:30] Chloe Desir (ICC): What do I do now? As 
[00:09:31] Junius Williams: an organizer? Both, to both of, question to both of you. 
[00:09:35] Chloe Desir (ICC): I would say my main job is to inform people. I feel like when I inform people about what's going on, it sparks that awareness in them to want to do things, um, to create that change that we would want to do when we have a problem.
[00:09:49] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah, 
[00:09:50] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): definitely. 
[00:09:51] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah. 
[00:09:52] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Uh, information is, is key. Um, a big thing that I do is outreach, because there are kids everywhere. What does that 
[00:10:00] Francesca Larson: look like? What does the outreach look like? And I know that's probably very normal for you. It's so, it's so 
[00:10:04] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): extensive. It's so extensive. It's, there are, you have an audience.
[00:10:09] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): There's a target audience. You have to know where the audience is. You got to know how to get through to them. You got to know if they're going to respond, and how to, you know, how to engage with them once you have their attention. So primarily we work with schools, schools and like youth organizations, programs that like after school programs that deal with young people, teens, young adults, and things of that nature.
[00:10:31] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): But we got to make it interesting. So, My job is just that, to make environmental justice and civic engagement seem interesting, seem, seem fun, seem relevant to young people, which is a challenge. 
[00:10:46] Francesca Larson: How do you deal with some of the pathways you found and what's resonated with, with the kids? 
[00:10:51] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Social media. Yeah.
[00:10:53] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Social media is a big one. Um, 
[00:10:56] Chloe Desir (ICC): I mean, I'd even say like things that people don't even consider as environmental justice. Um, I feel like recently, actually, I was in a panel talking about fast fashion and the impacts that fast fashion has. Everyone's ready to go shopping. Everybody's ready to buy clothes.
[00:11:11] Chloe Desir (ICC): But are they ready to know where it goes after they Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We give it away, and it ends up in a landfill somewhere, and it adds to more of the climate problems that we have now, environmental justice problems that we have now, things like that. 
[00:11:23] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah. Like, explaining to young people just how they are impacted in the little ways that they don't see, and just how much they play a role.
[00:11:31] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): It definitely changes their perspective of, environment in general, because some people think, oh, if I'm not littering, I'm not contributing to the climate being bad. If I'm not, if I'm not doing the big things like recycling, if I, if I recycle my bottles, then I'm good. But there's so many other things, so many little nuances about your day to day lives that people don't see as having a major impact on the climate, the environment.
[00:11:59] Junius Williams: Well, say some more about that. What are some of the other little things that people do? 
[00:12:03] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Um, I recently found out. Chloe and I were just talking about this, that gas stoves actually emit more fumes than, I think it's a semi truck? Yeah. Which I think is crazy. 
[00:12:17] Francesca Larson: There's a huge movement. Some of my work intersects with this now, but there's a huge movement to get rid of gas stoves.
[00:12:23] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah, like just like home appliances. I think washing machines emit VOCs. 
[00:12:29] Francesca Larson: What's a VOC? 
[00:12:30] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Uh, VOCs are basically chemicals that are emitted, uh, usually from like factories or, uh, corporations that, uh, We use machines that take a lot of energy, usually machines that are in spaces where it's like, you're going to work in a hot or humid environment.
[00:12:50] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Those are the type of environments that have VOCs that their employees are emitting, but also residents in nearby areas are emitting. If that factory or if that business is next to a school, the kids are going to be breathing in those VOCs and things like that. So it's particles, it's, you can't see it, you can't smell it, but it's there.
[00:13:08] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): It hurts you. It's there. It 
[00:13:09] Francesca Larson: hurts you. 
[00:13:09] Chloe Desir (ICC): test for? Oh, man, there's so many questions about it. There's so many things we should be testing for. Yeah, like we 
[00:13:16] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): have, um, like air like Suya uses air monitors. So we have air monitors located in different places around the South Ward. But, um, things like that are able to tell you exactly how much particulate matter is in the air, what kind of chemicals are present, which ones are detrimental to your health and which ones are not.
[00:13:36] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Whether it's extremely high or average on certain days, like when the, what was it, a forest fire in Canada happened. All of the air monitors were like in the red, like way, way worse than typical and on a typical day it's actually higher than it's supposed to be. 
[00:13:55] Chloe Desir (ICC): And that's a total of all the things that we're already dealing with right now.
[00:13:59] Chloe Desir (ICC): Like I mentioned earlier, like even when you were talking about the truck counts, we hadn't even done one as well. Cause being by the port, you're. Passing by thousands of trucks. Thousands, so many trucks. So you're talking about particulate matter, which is also something you can't even see, and as soon as you breathe it in, it's in your bloodstream.
[00:14:15] Chloe Desir (ICC): Literally. 
[00:14:17] Junius Williams: So what are you asking the young people to do? Now that you've gotten this information to them, what's the next step? 
[00:14:28] Chloe Desir (ICC): I mean, for me, I say one of my things that I love to tell people is be aware of who you need to hold accountable. That's definitely the biggest thing, making sure you know who are the people on the board of these power plants and who are the people that you need to be reaching out to when the air smells bad, because there's numbers that you can call actually.
[00:14:48] Chloe Desir (ICC): And when people say it smells bad in New Jersey or in Newark, they're just smelling environmental racism. That's what it really is. 
[00:14:54] Francesca Larson: I'm going to use that line with my daughter. She asked while we were in the car the other day. Hey, mommy, why does it smell bad here? 
[00:15:00] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah. Great. Yeah. So much thing like waste management, things like that.
[00:15:05] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah. People don't think that like there's something you can do about it. Like a lot of people just drive by like, Oh, it stinks. Let's hurry up and get out of this area. That's, that's the mindset when it's really like, it stinks. What can we do about it? 
[00:15:17] Francesca Larson: Right. 
[00:15:17] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Like who, like she said, who could we call? What, what, what happens next?
[00:15:21] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Like once I make this call, what are they going to do about it? So knowing the hierarchy, knowing who to call, email, send letters to, who to get together to make a bigger impact when you do call, email, or send those letters is very important. 
[00:15:36] Chloe Desir (ICC): Because they don't expect it. 
[00:15:38] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): They don't. 
[00:15:38] Chloe Desir (ICC): No. 
[00:15:39] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): They don't think that you're going to do anything.
[00:15:40] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): And that's a big part of environmental racism, too. A lot of, um, corporations choose specifically. Overburdened communities to put these dangerous facilities because they know that the people there aren't educated enough to do something about it. So, yeah, 
[00:15:58] Junius Williams: it's sad. Do you have a game plan in each of your organizations to deal with these things that you're talking about?
[00:16:10] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah, I would say so right now. Um, even since I've been working with ICC for the past two years now, um, Passaic Valley Sewage Commission is actually the, um, sewage plant, power plant that's trying to add a fourth power plant to the Ironbound. And so what we've been doing is we've been going to their public meetings, we've been addressing them directly, telling them we have all the information.
[00:16:31] Chloe Desir (ICC): other alternatives, safer alternatives, than building another power plant, um, in an already overburning community because four square miles in the Ironbound, that's one power plant per mile. And then you have a fat rendering facility, which you're going to smell on some days. And then you have your incinerator that's burning all of the trash that we could be composting.
[00:16:51] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yes. Maybe. 
[00:16:53] Francesca Larson: Another definition. Yeah. 
[00:16:55] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah. Doing all those things as well. As well as reaching out to people and letting them know about all these things that are happening because, you know, the technique that they use is to try to make sure nobody knows. Right? So when they're, um, legally mandated to bring out the public notice for these meetings, what are they putting them in?
[00:17:12] Chloe Desir (ICC): Like small little ads, in the corners of newspapers, all these different things. So bringing out the people to be active in that way. 
[00:17:21] Junius Williams: What is composting and why don't they do it? 
[00:17:25] Chloe Desir (ICC): People are working very hard to make sure we don't compost. It's crazy. It's so crazy. Composting. So essentially what we can do.
[00:17:34] Chloe Desir (ICC): Um, well, I think it's important to know what incineration is first and foremost, because most people don't know that. Um, A lot of our trash gets burned and turned into energy and the way that that happens is you're burning all of the trash, heating it up, which leads to the bad smells and lights up a small percentage of homes, probably about like 20 to 30, 000 homes, but even in Newark itself, that's what, 300, 000 people, but with composting, you're able to throw out things like food scraps and things that you can turn into a component of soil.
[00:18:07] Chloe Desir (ICC): So we can have more green spaces here in Newark, right? Have more things that are renewable and useful, um, as opposed to incineration. 
[00:18:16] Francesca Larson: What's interesting to me is I'm hearing you talk about organizing, and I've been spending the past few years with, with Junius, and listening to his stories about organizing in the same space.
[00:18:28] Francesca Larson: And I'm just taken back to your first days organizing in Newark, Junius. Is anything that they're saying helpful? Kind of ring true to the way that you reached communities. 
[00:18:41] Junius Williams: We didn't have computers. And so organizing was knocking on people's doors. And if you couldn't stand what you're going to find when the door opens, you don't want to be an organizer.
[00:18:57] Junius Williams: So sufficient enough people were We're, we're called to invite us in and we talked about things and some kind of organization, no component was set up with the new community union project. So I'm wondering, do you have that level of organizing? Are you getting together groups of people to continue, uh, protest or some kind of agenda for change?
[00:19:27] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yes, definitely. When we see, um, things that are happening in the now, something needs to be done now, we definitely do do things like protests, signs that say, we need clean air, we deserve clean air, we need clean water, we deserve clean water in our communities. Um, we get groups of people inside of like the office just to educate, inform, um, there's one thing to give out information to people, but it's a whole nother thing to explain the complexities of the situation.
[00:19:58] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Some people, you can tell them something and they can be like, Oh wow, that's crazy. But like, there are other people who you can sit down with and they're interested in knowing exactly the steps to make a change. They're interested in knowing just how deep it goes, as opposed to just saying, like, our air is dirty.
[00:20:14] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): But, um, knowing that like you, your son, your brother, your sister probably has asthma because our air is dirty. Heart disease is a result of our air being dirty and things like that. So we. We get people together, we educate them, um, sometimes we do protests, um, we speak out for sure. 
[00:20:35] Chloe Desir (ICC): The rallies and marches are definitely still happening.
[00:20:37] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yes. They're alive and well, we definitely, I've done my, my fair share of talking to a lot of strangers. You know, you got your, you talk to a hundred people and you bring ten people out, right? Out of that one hundred. I feel like, um, I've been able to really connect with a lot of people. Like, you know, you have the people that you had said, you know, that are like, oh, this is, they may not feel the connection to them specifically Mm-Hmm.
[00:21:00] Chloe Desir (ICC): But when you're able to organize them and talk to them and explain what's going on and how it impacts them directly, Mm-Hmm. , then that's what really makes the change. 
[00:21:08] Junius Williams: What role does, uh, your computerization of communication play in those two areas? Are people, mo. More interested in talking about things via, uh, Facebook as opposed to in person.
[00:21:29] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): I'd say it's more convenient. So there are a lot of things that have changed since the pandemic. And one thing that I noticed that like, I don't think is gonna ever go back to the way it was, it's like meetings. 
[00:21:43] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): And sometimes it's just way more convenient to meet virtually. And you can get the information across, you can get the interactions with people, the engagement people through a Zoom meeting.
[00:21:53] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Um, there are a lot of things that you can't get, Um, when it comes to like being face to face with people, but that's why we also have events and we have get togethers where we meet at, uh, spaces and we discuss things on like a grander scale. But when it comes to like small repetitive meetings where we're just making sure that the information is there for the community to access and making sure that people understand the depths of what we're doing, why we're monitoring the air, and what they can do to help us when it comes to telling them how they can sign petitions and things like that.
[00:22:23] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Um. Being online and being able to access people via social media, um, via video conferences is very convenient and it makes it more efficient in that way. 
[00:22:35] Chloe Desir (ICC): I would kind of say it's a bit of a toss up for me, um, in my experience because it was, you're definitely able to spread the message out much further and you're able to connect with people that are in a whole different world than you may be in, um, but also at the same time, if you're a community organizer, It's not going to get better than being on the ground.
[00:22:54] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah, it's limited. It's definitely limited. 
[00:22:56] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah. 
[00:22:57] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Because I've been, I've been the type to knock on doors too. Like I used to have the campaign when I worked at City Hall. And knock on doors and giving out flyers and stuff. Some people you really just have an impression on. Just, you know. Existing like sometimes you exchange energies with people and that has an effect on just how important what you say is to them So, um, 
[00:23:19] Chloe Desir (ICC): I would say that it's made organizing more accessible being able to organize more accessible But not always accessible for the people that you're trying to organize.
[00:23:28] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah, that is what I would say Because even with the meetings that I was talking about that we bring out for folks to, you know, express their grievances about what's going on, some of these meetings are only through Zoom.
[00:23:39] Chloe Desir (ICC): So if somebody's neighbor or whatever the case may be, doesn't have a laptop, a computer, like a phone of some sort, how are they going to get there?
[00:23:47] Chloe Desir (ICC): What are they going to be able to do? You know? 
[00:23:50] Junius Williams: Let's switch to the national scene. What's your opinion and impression about the whole issue of, uh, environmental justice nationally? 
[00:24:06] Chloe Desir (ICC): I would say I feel like overall, we've definitely made a lot of progress, but there's still a lot of steps to be made. Um, I think now that we've got a lot more progressive people representing us, um, in the government now, um, and now we have, you know, a White House environmental justice advisory council to talk about things that are going on and give advice to the president about how we can progress on climate action.
[00:24:31] Chloe Desir (ICC): And those are definitely great things. Um, and even in New Jersey, Specifically, we just passed the environmental justice law. So now we have to have environmental justice analysis being done before new proposed bills Plants are coming in that are going to be in overburdened communities, right? Um, but I would say there's still more work to be done because we still need to be regulating the Industries that we have now if we want to change into a clean energy state in a clean energy country 
[00:25:00] Francesca Larson: I was going to ask just with your work.
[00:25:02] Francesca Larson: Are you Are you talking with other cities to to see if the experience you're having here in Newark is happening On other parts in other parts of the country How does how does that play out? building work. 
[00:25:16] Chloe Desir (ICC): Oh, yeah. Um, well, for starters, a lot of these incinerations are large corporations that are having places to set up shop all over the country.
[00:25:25] Chloe Desir (ICC): Um, I've met people that are from Florida, from Indianapolis, from California, um, and they've been able to connect with me on things that we've been dealing with as an environmental justice community and how they've been able to organize and bring people together to spread awareness about these, these problems that we're having.
[00:25:44] Chloe Desir (ICC): Same company, different place. Yeah, 
[00:25:46] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): literally. And it's just, a lot of places, any place where there's an overburdened community, there's probably going to be environmental racism. Like, I was just, um, on a Zoom earlier today where they were talking about the statistics around Maryland and their air quality.
[00:26:03] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): And, um, what is it, Prince George County, their air quality is, About like 70% over what it's supposed to be. And it's just a norm. In places where there are minorities, low income communities, they, they put these corporations there. If there's a franchise like Amazon, there's probably one inside of all the places where it is urban.
[00:26:25] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): It's a lot of people, uh, a lot of people with a little bit of money. 
[00:26:28] Chloe Desir (ICC): Mm-Hmm. , 
[00:26:31] Junius Williams: do you think you have a future?
[00:26:36] Chloe Desir (ICC): Oh, . 
[00:26:38] Francesca Larson: This is a perfect, so, 
[00:26:39] Chloe Desir (ICC): okay, so day. 
[00:26:41] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah, the future. I mean, I think, I think, um, in terms of how do I think the future looks, um, bleak, , am I optimistic about it? Yes. Because I feel like I've been able to meet so many beautiful people that are so willing to do the work and ready to get the ground running on how to turn back the doomsday clock that we have going.
[00:27:06] Chloe Desir (ICC): Way farther forward. 
[00:27:10] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): So I'm a trained actor. So we're going to go with yes and. Oh. I think, um, yes and there's limits to it. So like, there's a future for sure. Um, like she said, how, how good that future looks, I'm not sure. But. I do have hope that young people who I work with all the time are going to be a lot more creative than we are.
[00:27:34] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Um, I feel like every generation is going to have these new innovative strategies to come up with things that we might have messed up to be quite, quite honest with you. If it's things that we're doing wrong, they're going to be affected by it and they're going to want to change it. So um, I feel like starting to build a new generation of change makers is like what gives people hope for the future because.
[00:27:57] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Young people not knowing what's going on is what's scary. 
[00:28:00] Francesca Larson: Somebody mentioned recycling really fast. Is recycling real? 
[00:28:06] Chloe Desir (ICC): I gotta be honest out here. I gotta be so honest. It's not real. I don't think it is. Less than 5 percent of the things we recycle actually get recycled. 
[00:28:15] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah, and I've recently found out about this thing called chemical recycling.
[00:28:20] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Even worse. Have you heard about that? It's literally burning. It's fake. It's like, you're, let's say I get a plastic bottle and I send it to the recycling people. They're gonna burn it. And turn it into a gas and they're, they're transforming it from one thing to another and they're calling that recycling, but it's not, it's not recycling.
[00:28:37] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): When you give your bottles away, you're assuming it's going to come back inside maybe a sturdier bottle, but that's not, that's not what happens. It's, it's getting either destroyed because a lot of things taint recycling bins. Like if you put one wrong thing inside of like a batch of recycling, usually the whole thing has to go.
[00:28:52] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): So. Like, less than 5 or 4 percent. It kind of discourages you from even wanting to recycle. 
[00:28:58] Chloe Desir (ICC): I would want to discourage you from recycling, to be honest with you. Because I feel like what we should be doing is trying to push more towards putting responsibility on the people that produce the plastic. Mm hmm.
[00:29:09] Chloe Desir (ICC): The people that are producing the plastic are the ones that are giving us the money. It's the trash that we have at the end. I would say we should transition more towards encouraging people to compost, encouraging people to make sure that we can get legislation that says maybe we need our producers to think of other alternatives to provide the things that we need.
[00:29:27] Francesca Larson: So we just said recycling. Is it better to learn how to recycle a bottle or stop buying something just to wear on a date? Tonight. 
[00:29:37] Chloe Desir (ICC): Both! You know, it's so funny you say that too because I'm like, I'm unlearning right now, myself. Because we're all so influenced because of social media, actually. To buy.
[00:29:49] Francesca Larson: Oh yeah, it's one click.
[00:29:50] Chloe Desir (ICC): To consume. 
[00:29:51] Francesca Larson: One click now. 
[00:29:52] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yes. I think, um, I've been having this mantra that I've been working on for a while since I heard it. I have enough.
[00:30:02] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): That's a good one. I need to adopt that. 
[00:30:04] Chloe Desir (ICC): Like, I can look into the closet that I have and work with what I've got because, right. 
[00:30:11] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah. I think, I think the second one, I definitely think that not, not buying just, just to have for one day because minimalism is a thing. There are people who are happy, who live minimalistic lives and thinking about, you The reality is if recycling is stressful, but it can be a lot less stressful for you to just, just work with what you've got 
[00:30:33] Chloe Desir (ICC): and not even just what with you got you, you can look into the community that you have.
[00:30:37] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yes. 
[00:30:38] Chloe Desir (ICC): Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that people have been will corporations and corporations bigger companies have been able to do is to push individualizing ourselves instead of looking out to other resources that we may have. 
[00:30:53] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Definitely. And thrifting. Yeah. 
[00:30:55] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Thrifting has, it's been a rise in thrifting since, uh, I think since like post COVID there's so many people who just like the secondhand market is, it's, it's booming.
[00:31:06] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): It is. It's booming. 
[00:31:07] Francesca Larson: I'm a mom of little kids. 
[00:31:09] Fajr Kegler (SWEA): Yeah. And it is sustainable. It's a good practice to have. And, uh, It's a combat to fast fashion, so thrifting and working with what you have. 
[00:31:23] Junius Williams: That's a good title. I have enough. Yeah. Well, thank you. Of course. This has been enlightening. 
[00:31:30] Chloe Desir (ICC): Of course. Thank you for having us. for having us. It's been an honor. 
[00:31:32] Junius Williams: Very glad to know that the, uh, the organizing lamp is still lit. Yes. In your communities and that, uh, you ladies are turning it up bright. 
[00:31:45] Chloe Desir (ICC): Thank you. Appreciate that. 
[00:31:46] Junius Williams: All right. This is. Everything's Political, and we'll see you the next time. 
[00:31:56] Junius Williams: Everything's Political podcast is sponsored by the Center for Education and Juvenile Justice and supported by the Terrell Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and listeners like you.
[00:32:10] Junius Williams: It is produced by Mosaic Strategies and DreamPlay Media with theme music by Anthony Ant Jackson. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to the Everything's Political podcast on YouTube. Press the red button. Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you can connect with us on Facebook and Instagram, do so.
[00:32:35] Junius Williams: See you next time, and remember, stay political.