Everything's Political Season 6, Episode 6 Guest: Dr. Salamishah Tillet Host: Junius Williams ======================================== OPENING DR. TILLET: Genres are like marketing categories. So, you know, we're talking about the blues and, like, the emergence of race records in, like, the early 20th century versus, you know, other Tin Pan Alley songs. And so in the early... once albums being marketed and distributed, they're also tied to the race of the musician. So that's where we get the genres from, and then by the time you get to, like, the '60s and there are new categories, like R&B is a new category, right? And that's seen as, like, Black music. Where you're getting rock all of a sudden being seen as, like, white music. So all of these categories that are really about marketing and audience are also tied to racial identities, geographies, and culture and language. ======================================== INTRODUCTION JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Hi, I'm Junius Williams, your host on Everything's Political. And this season, and this is season 6, we've been talking about the power of music. Today we're gonna take a little step further along that line. Up to this point, we're talking about the power of music on people personally. We've also talked about the power of music in terms of the politics of the civil rights movement. But today we're gonna talk about a little different aspects of power in music, and we're gonna do that with my friend Dr. Salamishah Tillet. She's a distinguished professor at Rutgers University. She is a critic, a contributing critic at large at The New York Times, and as such, she is the holder of a distinguished Pulitzer Prize for the art of criticism. So welcome. DR. TILLET: Thank you. How are you? JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Good. How are you? I'm glad to... We've been talking about coming on my program for a long time. DR. TILLET: Yeah. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: And you just been too busy. So I'm glad we can come on at this point, because I want you to join with me in talking about Beyoncé. DR. TILLET: Ah, yes. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: And country music. And we wanna talk about... Well, you're gonna see what we're gonna talk about, but you're gonna know that Beyoncé is a very critical person in the discussion of power when we're talking about music. But I don't wanna get too far ahead of the story. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you know about Beyoncé? ======================================== ON BEYONCÉ DR. TILLET: Well, I am a... Sometimes I say I'm a late fan of Beyoncé's work, but that's usually because I'm telling a lie, meaning that I say I became a fan of hers with the album Lemonade, and that was probably her most political album, but also most diverse in terms of genres at the time. But I really became a fan of Beyoncé's when she first became a solo artist, and she has this song called Crazy in Love. And if you see the video, she, like, drops to the ground and does, like, a sidekick, and I was like, oh, she's amazing. So I really became a Beyoncé fan then. And she's younger than me, so I didn't actually grow up listening to Destiny's Child the way that millennials or people slightly younger than me did. So it was really solo artist Beyoncé that caught my attention. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: My first one was, If You Want It, You Better Put a Ring on It. DR. TILLET: Oh, yeah, yeah, Put a Ring. Loved it. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Loved it. So she's quite a professional. I mean, she's more than just what you see on the surface, as a lot of these folks are. My daughter Camille, she would go to California to see a Beyoncé concert. She would go to see a concert in New York and then go the next day and see the same concert. And that's how I got to see the first Beyoncé concert that I saw. DR. TILLET: Oh, which concert was that? JUNIUS WILLIAMS: The one where she did the Ring on It. Whatever that was. And it just... When I go to these concerts, I put cotton or something in my ear 'cause it's too loud. I don't care how good the music is, they just play it too loud. DR. TILLET: Yeah, it's too loud. I don't know what's wrong with these people. Well, there are like headphones you could literally... But it's true. So what do you see when you go to a Beyoncé concert? I'm curious, 'cause I think she's probably one of our greatest living entertainers. Like, to see a Beyoncé concert and to see the evolution of a Beyoncé concert's quite a feat and a spectacle. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: It's one thing to be able to sing, but to be able to sing and dance and put a spin on the song that's convincing. Very few people can do that. And I'm a critic, speaking to a critic. I'm a critic of musicians who can't do that. Now you saw more of that, like Sammy Davis Jr., back in my day, actually before me. But Sammy Davis Jr. was a dancer, a singer, and he was an actor. Now, I can't say that she did that good with the acting thing, but she's persuasive, let's put it that way. She's persuasive with her song. So that's what I saw. DR. TILLET: Okay. And what about James Brown? I kind of put her in that tradition of just being, like, a show woman on stage with that kind of energy. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Maximum rhythm. I just can't describe what he can do with the rhythm and put it in words. You gotta hear it. If you haven't heard James Brown, something's wrong with you. But you hear it all the time, 'cause he's one of the most sampled people in hip-hop. The most sampled, I think, actually. The most sampled musician in hip-hop. And all his people, not only do they have to have rhythm, they gotta play and follow his direction. And to be able to stop on a dime and go down deep... And when we were dancing to that, then we would change our step when he went to down deep. So that was very important to me. James Brown. You got me all excited here. DR. TILLET: No, but I could think of her in these various traditions. And one of the things I think is really interesting about Beyoncé, particularly when you go to a concert of hers, is she's actually the musical director, which I don't think a lot of people are aware of. She's both kind of choreographing the song transitions and also the big visionary for the show. And so that's kind of what makes her remarkable in another way, I think, other than her singing and her dancing, is that she has this ability to communicate the depths of her artistry in a way that we may not expect her to do, but that she's very, very involved in and a master of, I think. 'Cause a concert of Beyoncé's is... I think everyone should attend one Beyoncé concert in their lifetime, just to appreciate, like, it was important to attend a Prince concert or something like that. It's just one of these moments that are rare to experience. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Or a James Brown concert. DR. TILLET: James Brown, exactly. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: I saw my first James Brown concert in New Haven when I was in law school, and it was significant in another way because my date and I recognized some police brutality and we had to go to trial because of what was happening out front at the James Brown concert. So it was... James Brown, Beyoncé, I put them on the same level for musicality. DR. TILLET: Okay. That's an interesting little side note. We're not talking about James Brown. But if we talk about traditions in Black music and politics and power, so. ======================================== COUNTRY MUSIC IS AT WAR WITH ITSELF JUNIUS WILLIAMS: So what we are talking about, since you're in the New York Times. This was an article that I clipped from about a year ago. May. It was in the editorial section, and it was called Country Music is Entirely at War With Itself by columnist Tressie McMillan Cottom. Not cotton, but Cottom. Do you know her? DR. TILLET: I do know her. Yeah, she is brilliant. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: She is. She's quite good. And she writes in a way that is scholarly, but she also makes it understandable. Let me just read a couple of sentences here, which sum up the whole piece. She says: The Black man in a cowboy hat is a corrective for a history that erased him, and the white woman with long straight hair is a corrective for a history that excluded her. And she goes on to say: That's what Beyoncé did. She says: Beyoncé didn't cross over into country music. She claimed it. Now that's a powerful statement. She claimed it. DR. TILLET: Yeah. So country music, actually, like, the roots of country music are in African American music. And so, like, the more I thought about it, I was just thinking about Beyoncé and the cowboy aesthetic, and I thought about that image of the Black cowboys from, like, the post-Civil War era. I mean, it's estimated that one in four cowboys were Black, and so there's this rich history of Black cowboys and Black country music that has been erased from our understanding of American history. And so that's really what Tressie McMillan Cottom is getting at. She's saying the Black man in the cowboy hat is not just a fashion statement; it's a corrective. It's a reclamation of a history that has been systematically erased. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: So who were some of these Black country artists? DR. TILLET: There's Charley Pride. Charley Pride is probably the most well-known. He's a Black country artist who won a Grammy and was one of the most popular country artists of his era, but he has been largely forgotten in kind of the mainstream history of country music. And then you have DeFord Bailey, who was actually one of the original performers on the Grand Ole Opry. And he's a Black man, a harmonica player, and he was one of the original stars of the Grand Ole Opry, and yet he was largely erased from the history of the Grand Ole Opry. And then you have people like Darius Rucker, who has had a more recent career in country music. And so there is this rich history of Black artists in country music that has been systematically erased, and I think what Beyoncé is doing is reclaiming that history. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: So she didn't come out of nowhere with this. DR. TILLET: No, no. She's building on a tradition. And I think that's one of the things that Beyoncé does so brilliantly. She's always building on tradition. She's always situating herself within a larger history, and she's also expanding that history at the same time. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Now I want to talk about the reaction to Beyoncé trying to move into the country music space. Because it wasn't all welcome, was it? DR. TILLET: No, it was not. And I think that's one of the things that's so fascinating about this moment. So when Beyoncé released Texas Hold 'Em and 16 Carriages, these two singles that were really her foray into country music, a country radio station in Oklahoma, KYKC, refused to play Texas Hold 'Em. And the reason they gave was that it did not fit into their format. But the song was number one on iTunes. So it was clearly a popular song. And so the implication was that they weren't playing it because of racial reasons. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: So that's country music being at war with itself, as the article title says. DR. TILLET: Exactly. And I think what's interesting is that country music has always had this kind of internal tension between its roots and its mainstream identity. And I think what Beyoncé did was expose that tension in a very public way. She made visible the contradiction at the heart of country music, which is that it has these deep Black roots, and yet the mainstream industry has largely excluded Black artists. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Now I want to ask you about something that I think is really important, which is the album Cowboy Carter itself. Can you talk about that album and what it means? DR. TILLET: So Cowboy Carter is Beyoncé's album that she released in 2024, and it's really a country album, but it's also much more than that. It's a meditation on American history and Black American history in particular. It includes contributions from Linda Martell, who is one of the first Black women to have a number one country song, and Dolly Parton, who is kind of the queen of country music. And it includes Beyoncé's reimagining of Jolene, the classic Dolly Parton song. And so what Beyoncé is doing with this album is creating a kind of genealogy of country music that includes Black artists and that reclaims the genre for Black artists. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: What was Dolly Parton's reaction? DR. TILLET: Dolly Parton was very supportive. She was very enthusiastic about it. She said she was honored that Beyoncé had covered her song. And I think that's significant because Dolly Parton has long been someone who has tried to be inclusive in her vision of country music. And so her embracing of Beyoncé is, I think, meaningful. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Now I want to go back to this article and this idea that Beyoncé claimed country music. What does it mean to claim something? Because I think that's a really important word. DR. TILLET: Yeah, I think to claim something is to assert your ownership of it, to assert your right to it. And I think what Beyoncé is doing is asserting her right to country music, and by extension, asserting the right of Black people to country music. And I think that's a powerful statement. It's saying: This is ours. We were here first. We helped create this. And we are not going to be excluded from it. And I think that's a very political act, even if Beyoncé is not explicitly making a political statement. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: She's making a political act by being here. DR. TILLET: Exactly. Her presence is political. ======================================== THE GRAMMYS AND RECOGNITION JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Now let's talk about the Grammys. Because Beyoncé won the Grammy for Album of the Year with Cowboy Carter. And this was significant for a number of reasons. Talk about that. DR. TILLET: So she had not gotten the award for an extremely long time, much to... I would say the dismay and perhaps for some people the disgrace, that she didn't win it with Lemonade, she didn't win it with Renaissance. Jay-Z got an honorary award, and he said onstage, even using your own metrics, 'cause she's the most nominated artist of all time. He said, even according to your own metrics, this is a weird situation. Right? So her winning it, I think, at this moment was... And I love Beyoncé sometimes, 'cause she's not one to shy away from acknowledging the moment. And so she said this was a long time coming when she won the award for Best Album of the Year. But she was really shocked she won country. I think, you know, she still didn't know that was possible for her to win the Grammy for country music because of how she's experienced alienation and discrimination within the industry there. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: She didn't realize the power she had, perhaps. DR. TILLET: Mm. But she knows now. ======================================== THE BEYHIVE AND CULTURAL POWER JUNIUS WILLIAMS: There's a third thing. It's called the BeyHive. The BeyHive, of which my daughter is an active member. Remember, she put out the call. So people who were not listening ever to country listened to that album. That's why in 4 days she got 19 plus million streams or whatever it was. So there's another kind of power there. I mean, we think about the civil rights movement being able to galvanize all of those people and bring them to one spot at one time. I'm a product of that. I listened to that call, and I came out. A lot of people. But here's a woman who is in show business who can stop the musical world turning on a dime because she's got millions of people who listen to her. And they didn't have anything. They didn't know what to do with her. They weren't, the traditional folks weren't involved in this. They had to give her an award. DR. TILLET: Well, they hadn't given her... I mean, but she hadn't, this is the first time winning Album of the Year. But Beyoncé's one of those few artists that can still time. I mean, Taylor Swift's another one. But there's not a lot who can command our attention with an album drop, and then get all those people right away. She just has this fan base that's very loyal and eager to consume their music. ======================================== CLOSING: BEYONCÉ'S COUNTRY DEBUT AND WHAT IT MEANS JUNIUS WILLIAMS: We can only hope that she will continue to make that path plain for all of us to see. Just to sum up, Beyoncé's country debut ignites a rediscovery of heritage. 'Cause like you said, Black folks been involved in this for a long time. Country music. Deconstructing our idea of traditional Western symbols, i.e., the white woman with the long blonde hair, the Black man who wears the cowboy hat, only him. And reshaping our concept of American cultural identity. And for that, I say that's power. Don't you think? DR. TILLET: Yeah. No, it is. And she tries to share it with others, so that's nice, too. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: And that's good. So I wanna thank you. DR. TILLET: Oh, thank you. This was fun. This was great. We'll have another one. And I know you're doing something musical as well. Yeah, I'm writing a book on Nina Simone. So I too am interested in the relationship between music and activism, when it comes to... she's kind of like one of the lodestars when we think about people who are trying to use their music to change the world. She's a really phenomenal figure in that regard. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: So when's the book coming out? DR. TILLET: February... Wait, February 2027, so next year. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Does it have a title? DR. TILLET: Yes, Nina Simone and the World She Made. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: We're gonna look for that. Maybe we'll have you back to talk about that. DR. TILLET: Oh, I would love to. ======================================== BONUS STORY: NINA SIMONE IN NEWARK JUNIUS WILLIAMS: And Newark, talking about Nina Simone, you know, she lived here. Did you meet her when she was living here? I got a story to tell you. DR. TILLET: I'm sure you do. Do you wanna... Everybody's got stories about Nina Simone, but I always gotta brace myself. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: She was staying with Amiri Baraka, Baraka the elder. And I had a birthday party. And I invited Baraka and his wife Amina to come to my birthday party. And Baraka said, well, I have a guest here. Can I bring her? I said, sure. Who is it? Nina Simone. Of course you can bring Nina Simone to my birthday party. She got there. As a matter of fact, I was big time at that time. I mean, you got Nina Simone coming to your birthday party. Now, the birthday party was at the Newark Museum. It was big time. It was a really fancy party. DR. TILLET: Okay, what number was this? JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Now you're getting personal. Whatever, whatever. It was my birthday, okay? She came and we hit it off well. And so she sat down and started playing. I said, would you play for me? She said, yes, I will play. And she sang. She sang and played for about 20 minutes, a half an hour. At my birthday party. DR. TILLET: Oh my God. That's like a really good Nina Simone story. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: Listen, you can put it in the book if you want. And so the cable television guy was there. And I said, did you get that? No, man. Well, why didn't you get it? Because I forgot to tape. DR. TILLET: Oh, man. That's a sad story. It went from a great story to a sad story. But it still lives in your memory. JUNIUS WILLIAMS: It's in my memory. Yeah, yeah. And now it's on the television. So that's gonna move however people look at this. So I'm very happy that I had that affinity enough with her that she would think about singing. Good story, and this is my pleasure to have Dr. Tillet with me. DR. TILLET: Thank you. I'm happy we... This was so fun. ======================================== OUTRO JUNIUS WILLIAMS: And it was a good time we had, but in the meantime, this is Everything's Political. Everybody ought to do something political. Find those little veins of politicality in all that you do, as we did with Beyoncé. Nobody thinks about Beyoncé in terms of power. But she got it. She's got a lot. So come back to us next time. We'll see you next time. Thank you. DR. TILLET: Thank you. Thank you. ======================================== SPONSOR CREDITS Everything's Political podcast is sponsored by the Center for Education and Juvenile Justice, and supported by the Terrell Foundation, PSEG Foundation, and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and listeners like you. It is produced by Junius Williams. Everything's Political podcast is recorded in Newark, New Jersey, and our theme music is by Anthony Ant Jackson. Check out earlier episodes and subscribe to us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. See you next time, and remember, stay political.