00:07.56 The ModGolf Podcast Hello and welcome to the ModGolf podcast. I am your host, Colin Weston, and this is the place where we explore the people, ideas, and technology that are shaping the future of golf. 00:21.14 The ModGolf Podcast On ModGolf, we often talk about the ideas changing the game, the new apps, the smart clubs, the next-gen simulators, the newest golf entertainment innovation. 00:30.31 The ModGolf Podcast But behind every great idea, there is usually a spark of capital. And to really grow, they definitely needed that spark of capital. And that's a group of believers who see the potential and say, let's make this happen. 00:42.97 The ModGolf Podcast So my guest today is part of one of these groups that's actively fuelling the fire of golf innovation. So please welcome Matt Erley to the show, managing partner with Old Tom Capital, an investment fund specifically focused on early stage golf and golf adjacent companies. 01:00.80 The ModGolf Podcast So with that, Matt, thanks for joining us and welcome to the ModGolf podcast. 01:04.77 Matt Erley Hey, thanks for having me, Colin. Great to be here. big Big fan of the pod and excited to come on and spend some time with you. 01:12.51 The ModGolf Podcast Well, I appreciate that. And we've been back and forth. We met on LinkedIn. I've been following what Old Top Capital's been doing on LinkedIn for a while. This is right the wheelhouse of all the good things we like to talk about on ModGolf. 01:25.71 The ModGolf Podcast You're the one that reached out and made this happen today. So yeah, I said I had to talk to one of the partners with Old Tom Capital to see what's going on. So we're gonna pull the curtain back today. 01:47.05 The ModGolf Podcast We're not just gonna talk about the companies that you invested in, but we're gonna dig a little bit deeper here and find out what kind of makes you tick as far as your investment thesis what you're looking for. so i want to dig into that what goes on there because i'm sure a lot of people think that what you do is super glamorous and sexy 24 7 but i'm sure you're also grinding away on a daily basis here so hey why don't we start right at the top here at the beginning. so the name old tom capital love it 02:18.71 The ModGolf Podcast It's obviously paying a homage to the legendary old Tom Morris, but tell us the backstory here, Matt. What was the gap that you and your partner saw in the market that made you say, "we need a fund dedicated entirely to golf innovation"? 02:32.51 Matt Erley Absolutely. Well, old Tom Morris for those, if you know, you know. We think about old Tom as one of the modern day founders of the game of golf, right? 02:45.43 Matt Erley He was alive in the late 1800s, greenskeeper at the old course in St. Andrews. And he was an innovator and in fact a lot of the innovations he was doing in golf were frowned upon by the rest of the the golf community at the time, whether that was how he was innovating around the golf ball or golf clubs or other things. As we were starting our investment firm and taking a really narrow focus on the golf industry, we felt that homage to old Tom Morris as as one of the original founders was a nice one. 03:24.57 Matt Erley So, Tom Capital, we've been around for about four years. And our thesis is that golf has been experiencing incredible ah growth and innovation and will continue to do so. And we as an investment firm are excited about sitting in the middle of that and participating in. 03:45.28 Matt Erley investing in the next great companies in golf and and backing great founders and operators. And we really believe that the golf space is a resilient category and in a place where there's a lot of innovation and change happening. And we're excited to be backing that as a capital source. 04:08.27 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. Love this. So when I have entrepreneurs and founders on the show, I always ask them the question, that AHA moment or that first step that they took or that sequencing. So I want to ask that question with you, looking through a slightly different lens there of investors. 04:23.83 The ModGolf Podcast How did you put this together? Was it you and a couple of friends or colleagues. Did you have like a tranche of of capital already in place and perhaps an investment or two you're looking at, or did you decide we're going to do this and then start looking for the investment? 04:41.79 The ModGolf Podcast So yeah what was the sequencing? 04:42.08 Matt Erley Yeah. Good question. 04:44.17 The ModGolf Podcast Which way around did that go? Did you already have some companies in mind? 04:49.45 Matt Erley Yeah. So my business partner and I, Evan Roosevelt. So Evan was one of the co-founders of Random Golf Club with Eric Anders Lang and, 04:59.77 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 05:01.09 Matt Erley had built a very successful company in inside the golf industry and specifically in one of the categories that has been bringing rapid innovation and even some disruption to how people view golf. 05:22.74 Matt Erley How they watch golf on YouTube and so Evan had a lot of success within that business and had exited that business. I had also been coming from more of an operator background, having participated in a number of of companies in the startup space. 05:43.53 Matt Erley We both had done a bit of angel investing outside of golf and were looking at golf because broader sports investors weren't really paying attention to the category. And we thought, "hey, maybe there's some great investment opportunities within golf". So we just started, no real aha moment other than we started talking to people building companies in golf and who's out there building, what's their thesis in the space? How are they thinking about the innovation in golf? 06:13.97 Matt Erley The more and more we had those conversations, we were really impressed with who was out there, the companies that were being built, and the fact that there was such little capital going into this pocket of golf. A lot of money has historically gone into golf with golf courses and real estate. 06:33.77 Matt Erley But pockets of innovation like agronomy or golf software or travel, emerging leagues. There just wasn't a lot of strategic capital going into that. So we just started to go out and write some checks personally into companies and bring alongside some folks in our network through a strategic syndicate of investors that pool capital. And the more and more we did that, we created an even higher degree of conviction around the opportunity in golf. And that's brought us to today where we've been a very active investor in the golf space, writing a couple dozen checks over the last few years into the industry and now even making a transition into more 07:18.91 Matt Erley growth equity, private equity, looking at more ownership in the golf asset space. But for us, it wasn't as much of an AHA moment as it was creating conviction over time and getting more and more excited and interested in this as a real business category, real business opportunity for us through seeing those indications that this was working and that the thesis made sense. 07:50.13 The ModGolf Podcast Well, you did see a massive opportunity and GAP in the $100 billion dollar a year and growing North American industry known as golf. And I know personally when we stumbled into the golf industry back in 2013 with our first venture that happened to be golf event based and looking back, there was no ecosystem as far as well, first of all, what we were doing, there wasn't the technology in place and YouTube creators wasn't a thing at the time. 07:59.61 Matt Erley Yep. 08:20.08 The ModGolf Podcast And there was no investment. So even for us going around and explaining what sport tech was or the experience economy, all the time with investors, we'd just have this glazed look. 08:27.74 Matt Erley Right. 08:32.68 The ModGolf Podcast So we'd be starting from zero. So it was just incredibly painful. 08:34.43 Matt Erley Yeah. 08:35.99 The ModGolf Podcast Whereas now where you are already at that level that you're telling people about these type of things. You don't have to be taught. 08:42.11 Matt Erley Yeah. And sports and even a more narrow category sports like golf, which is, as you said, extremely large, but probably feel narrow to broader sports investors. They need advocates internally who are who are showing outside investors that these are great places to invest, right? Golf has historically been a very sexy category to invest in, and that's fine. 09:08.69 Matt Erley It's a reason a lot of people working golf and, participate in the category because we love it, as do we and me personally at Old Tom Capital. 09:21.81 Matt Erley But you also need to be able to show where the sophisticated pockets are and where there's as an investor, where there's opportunities to do well to return capital. And so we've started to play that role in the golf industry to broader investors too, because golf needs more capital. 09:38.81 Matt Erley It's not going to just come from us. It needs to come from a lot of sources. 09:40.56 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. Mm-hmm. 09:42.28 Matt Erley There's other great investment firms and folks that have a good thesis in the space, whether that's 8am, which I know you've spoken to Hoyt in the past, or the PGA of America's Innovation Fund, led by Chris Hart, or Creator Capital, which we've done a lot of co-investing around. 10:00.73 Matt Erley And they just did the Good Good investment as well as Grass League alongside us. And so you're starting to see more sophisticated capital come into the golf industry. And for us to be able to access that for founders and entrepreneurs to be able to access that is extremely important because that's what's going to make this a good place to build companies because there's availability of capital in the space and that's going to be good for everyone. 10:26.14 The ModGolf Podcast Nice. Well, you did mention Grass League and Good Good. Those are two of the dozen or so investments that you've made so far. I do want to touch on those, but I want to rewind it a little bit here. I don't think you mentioned this yet. What was the first investment that you made with Old Tom Capital, and why did you decide on that one? 10:43.95 Matt Erley Yeah, the first investment we made was into Fair Game, which is a company that um Adam Scott, the golfer, is a co-founder of. 10:53.10 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 10:54.26 Matt Erley And it was really one of the first platforms, kind of digital platforms in the golf space to be able to bring a new way to handle scoring and and interact with ah connectivity, I guess, between players within within the round. 11:13.76 The ModGolf Podcast Thank you. 11:13.82 Matt Erley That's become a big space in golf, how do you interact digitally with your round and with other players, whether that's through gameplay or betting or social experiences. 11:28.26 Matt Erley And we invested in them at that time because there was amazing founders, Eric Mayville, who built a huge marketing agency in New York, Ben Clymer, who founded a company called Hodinkee, that's one of the largest watch and timepiece content businesses in the world. And it's a good example of a couple guys that decided they wanted to build something in golf. 11:54.00 Matt Erley They could build anywhere, but they decided that golf was a good place to build because of the opportunities there and the passion there. And so they founded that business with Adam Scott and have become a really big player in that space. 12:06.68 Matt Erley And so yeah, you always remember your first, right? So that was the first investment that we deployed some capital into. 12:11.37 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 12:14.87 Matt Erley And that was about two and a half, three years ago at this point. And that was really a a good catalyst for us in starting to push deeper into the space. 12:25.11 The ModGolf Podcast Right, right. Well, I do want to talk about some of the investments that you made, and you certainly have a diverse spectrum across your portfolio here, but I'm sure there's a thread that runs through it as far as the narrative and your investment thesis, as we talked about there. 12:38.79 Matt Erley Yes. 12:42.08 The ModGolf Podcast But your process as far as how you analyze, because i know we've got a lot of founders and people, innovators that love to listen to ModGolf. And a lot of them have ideas in the golf space. I'm sure they're going to be listening and I'm sure a lot of them are going to be reaching out to you afterwards. 12:59.89 The ModGolf Podcast But talk about a day in the life or a week in the life of Old Tom Capital. Do you get inundated with hundreds of emails or inbound with people saying they got the next great thing? 13:06.28 Matt Erley Yeah. 13:09.62 The ModGolf Podcast And then how do you then vet and arrive to go to that first step? 13:14.05 Matt Erley Yeah. 13:14.56 The ModGolf Podcast Tell us a bit about that. 13:15.24 Matt Erley We do get inundated and we love that, right? That's our job is to build a, a brand and a level of awareness that is intriguing to the community and golf that, that are building. 13:33.57 Matt Erley Honestly, as an investor, and I unfortunately had had not seen this as as much as I wish I would have when I was an operator and and talking to investors, is I think we start by leading with with gratitude towards any founder who's building anything. 13:54.83 Matt Erley Because we have to say no to most of the things we look at, right? That's the job of an investor is that's just the volume that comes in. 14:02.21 Matt Erley But starting with gratitude towards anyone who's building something is in my opinion, they're very courageous and it's very hard to build a company. And so anytime we speak to somebody, whether that's a cold email or someone that writes us in on LinkedIn or whatnot, we really try to respond to everyone and lead with that gratitude for what they're doing. 14:36.20 Matt Erley We have to understand, are they operating in a pocket of golf that we have a belief in? There are some things that we're just not as bullish on. Right. And again, that's our opinion. 14:47.62 Matt Erley So that doesn't mean somebody shouldn't go build there. 14:47.69 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 14:50.18 Matt Erley That's just our perspective. I think there's things where maybe the addressable market within golf might be ah a bit small. Sometimes that's typically a red flag for us just because we're we're investors and we need to see a lot of return on on capital. 15:06.81 Matt Erley pockets of the industry that maybe are only touching a very specific type of golfer or player or an elite player, those can be challenging. Areas where we have a lot of conviction are things that we like to lean into. So something like agronomy. 15:25.35 Matt Erley There's so much change in agronomy, and agronomic practices and technology and water is a huge problem. We just saw the announcement by the PGA Tour that they're not going to Kapalooa this year because the golf course can't be watered. They're losing the golf course. 15:44.16 Matt Erley And so they had to make a decision not to play there because of water challenges. You're going to see that more and more often. And so we have a strong degree of interest in that category. 15:56.07 Matt Erley And it's the reason we invested in a company like Terorad that's building technology in that space. And so we also look at everything from a narrative perspective within golf. So things like, golf travel, we really like agronomy, the pockets of the golf software space, emerging leagues, these are all things that we like to look at. And so when we see something in those spaces, it perks our interest a bit more than maybe other pockets. But I think great founders that are building in a space that, 16:27.57 Matt Erley there's a lot of upside from that addressable marketing golf. And where there is a clear growth story, there's a little bit of momentum. 16:38.07 Matt Erley We're really not early stage investors in the sense of someone who has an idea or someone who's maybe just built their concept, but they're completely pre-revenue. 16:51.67 Matt Erley there's been no monetization of the business and it's okay not to have profit yet in some instances, but to not have any monetization. 16:58.82 Matt Erley we're always looking for some of those elements. We're open to anything and we should be because our job is to look at everything that's happening in the golf industry and to be able to identify opportunities. And the last thing I'll say on that is a lot of businesses, they don't need to raise money and they shouldn't raise money. 17:24.81 Matt Erley great lifestyle businesses or should be funded internally, the moment you bring an investor in, we're going to have a strong opinion. And we are good partners to our founders, but we still are going have an opinion and we're going to expect a lot of growth. And that can actually harm some companies if that's not the same alignment with that company's vision. So, not everybody needs to raise, but we, we look at everything and we're excited about taking a big macro approach to the golf industry. 17:56.93 The ModGolf Podcast You make a great point that, yes, a lot of companies do not need to raise capital, nor should they. You mentioned that the term of lifestyle brand, meaning if you're not looking to scale it, maybe you don't have technology involved and you just want to keep it within your town or your maybe you just want to have, whether it's digital or whether it's bricks and mortar or whatever that experience is, and that's okay. 18:14.79 Matt Erley Yeah. Agreed. 18:18.83 The ModGolf Podcast And I've seen this too with my work in the in the startup community here, not only in Vancouver, and but also across Canada, that a lot of founders, they get caught up, whether they're watching too many episodes of Shark Tank, 18:35.49 The ModGolf Podcast And the best investor you can have is someone called a customer because you're diluting none of the valuation of your company. 18:42.47 Matt Erley Right. 18:45.77 The ModGolf Podcast And it seems so obvious, but a lot of people lose track of that, that, hey, if you've got that ability, then you've probably seen this too, that when you've got that traction and you're scaling, you've got the revenue curve going up, that's when, surprise, surprise, investors are reaching out to you rather than you. 19:01.58 Matt Erley Yeah, and golf is such a good place to build a startup because you have access immediately to whatever your end buyer customer is generally speaking, right? If it's the golfer, you can find golfers, right? You can access them and understand, do they like your product? Do they like your service? Are they going to utilize it? You have access to golf courses. If it's a product, and I don't mean product physically, I mean whatever your concept is, you probably have access to golf courses. 19:41.07 Matt Erley Club professionals you can you can identify. You probably can find agronomy teams and superintendents. you It's not some industry where you have to go and build some deep strategic partnership to be able to put something in market. You can probably go start validating what you're building very quickly at a micro scale. 20:03.87 Matt Erley And that's a good thing. So what we always tell people is go do that, and ideas are ideas are ideas. So just go, start building and working on something and, we're here to be supportive as one of the central players in the capital side of of the golf space. But there's a lot of people out there who can be helpful and start building and validating. And if it's something you think is worthy, keep going. But we get a lot of ideas. 20:34.26 Matt Erley We get a lot of "sign an NDA and let's talk about something". And for us, that's not the business we operate in. That's not the game we play. Like go out and build something. 20:45.72 Matt Erley Let's move from a NDA culture to a culture of operating and acting on things. And that's how you build good companies, not trying to come up with a concept and thinking others are going to steal it. 21:01.40 Matt Erley And so we see a lot of that and I just want founders to go out and build. 21:01.99 The ModGolf Podcast yeah 21:09.40 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. The sign an NDA before we talk about anything. And, oh, and by the way, I'm the one that's reached out to you. That was a rookie move that we made back in the day. 21:16.27 Matt Erley That's right. Yeah, we get that a lot. 21:17.91 The ModGolf Podcast We didn't know. We didn't know. So I get that, that people make that but mistake. So I just want to say anybody listening, if you've got an idea, if you're building something, Know where you are on the technical readiness scale, that level. 21:32.07 The ModGolf Podcast And so it goes from one to seven, and you're looking for companies that are more in that five to seven range, where if you're still very early with a one, it's just an idea. 21:42.86 The ModGolf Podcast I know one of the things that we've been building a venture last couple of years and the technology-fueled venture that is in the putting entertainment space. But where we are, I know our technical readiness is probably at a two or a three right now. 21:52.81 Matt Erley right 21:56.86 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm not going to be grinding you that you need to see what we're doing because it's just not there. 21:59.77 Matt Erley yeah it's good advice yeah it's good advice agree with that 22:02.48 The ModGolf Podcast It's not part of your thesis where you invest. So, okay, I do want to talk about some of the companies that you're investing in. Oh, and I do want to mention that for all of our listeners, I do encourage you to become viewers on the ModGolf YouTube channel because Matt and I are going to jump over to a video conversation where we can show some of the investments and show the old Tom Capital website and run through there. 22:28.09 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm excited about that. So I will include the link in the show notes as I always do. So we'll have the chance to extend the conversation. Won't be exactly the same thing we're doing here. So, we'll do that after we finish up here. 22:40.83 The ModGolf Podcast With that, let's talk about a couple of of the companies and and some of the people, the fact I'm connected in this ecosystem for the last few years I've met some of the founders and I'm looking to have them on the ModGolf podcast. Now that they're in your portfolio, maybe that can help nudge them that we're going to make that happen in the next little while. 22:59.57 Matt Erley yeah 22:59.55 The ModGolf Podcast But two of the ones I want to talk about, first of all, is Grass League. I have a background in events and I love this space. So tell us about Grass League and how that investment came about and how and where you are right now. 23:14.94 Matt Erley Yeah, there is ben obvious disruption in the professional side of the game 23:26.47 Matt Erley I'm not going to share an opinion, good or bad on that, but there is disruption. That's a fact. 23:31.56 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 23:32.05 Matt Erley So what happens in those types of disruptive environments is that it actually opens up opportunity for emerging concepts to do well and to come onto the scene. So obviously, Tomorrow Sports, TGL has been one of those to some degree, and we're investors in that business and and are very bullish on this intersection of sports and almost like e-sports and in-person arena environments and different concepting around that. And we're excited about seeing the second season of TGL launch at the beginning of next year. 24:15.82 Matt Erley Grass league is another one of those that is bringing a concept into golf. It's making golf a little bit faster, changing the viewing experience, allowing a different type of player, albeit of a very good player, elite amateurs and it's the only place in golf where you could put an LPGA tour player, a PGA player, a champions tour player, an elite amateur, 24:46.64 Matt Erley and maybe even a high-level creator into the same match. And they're going to be able to play really good matches because you're you're taking driving out of the the game and you're moving into... 25:04.80 Matt Erley 150 yards, 170 yards, whatever it is and putting and that creates a really level playing field for everyone. We think that's pretty exciting. And in general, we think that there's a viewer in golf that is not currently watching traditional golf. 25:25.01 Matt Erley They're the ones that are starting to watch or are watching YouTube golf, which by the way, more people watch golf on YouTube than all linear television golf combined. 25:36.57 Matt Erley And it's not, it's not cannibalizing the PGA tour. 25:36.77 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 25:40.90 Matt Erley It's just being additive to the tour. And so that group is also watching and engaging in things like Grass League and things like Good Good and TGL. And, so as we think about this narrative within golf, whether it's in this category, thinking about emerging leagues, new formats of viewership and who are the eyeballs on that? That's what brought us to conviction on Grass League. 26:11.17 Matt Erley Very good founders. Very good proof of concept. they already have good relationships there on the streaming side and the television side. And there's overlap with some of the other creator businesses like Good Good that we're involved in. And so we're just excited about it. It's a fun way to watch golf and it's different and it's unique. And if you go out to one of their events, you'll see that it's a different vibe and it's a different experience. 26:42.85 Matt Erley That shouldn't be scary to the incumbents in the golf space. That should be exciting and additive because it's allowing new eyeballs that are probably not watching the traditional version of the game to come into the space. And so very bullish on Grass League and very excited about what they're doing. And I i would encourage people to take a closer look at that. 27:05.02 The ModGolf Podcast Nice. Well, I certainly have and will. And I did notice on the Grass League website that they have, I think, 11 teams now, so 10 in the US s and one there's a Canadian team also, the Hatricks. I did see that. 27:14.76 Matt Erley That's right. That's right. 27:16.33 The ModGolf Podcast it sounds like you bought into this model very much like t TGL has that the value is in the team concept. I know that with LIV, they've tried that. 27:28.29 The ModGolf Podcast I won't give an opinion whether that's worked or not, but 27:30.97 Matt Erley Yeah. 27:32.38 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure you've looked at the example with the Indian Premier League as far as cricket and using that as a validator and how those some of those teams now are worth over a billion dollars each 27:34.23 Matt Erley Yeah. 27:40.28 Matt Erley Right. The good thing about the franchise model is that you have a large you have you have a broader group of ownership in those franchise teams that also care deeply about the growth of the league and the business. 27:59.30 Matt Erley So we think that that is and accelerant for a Grass League or a TGL or or or any other model where there are these owners that they want to go build their own brand internally with their teams. they They're operating their own business in those teams and there's more excitement and and um and opportunity to create kind of a network effect on the entire and the entire league within that. 28:29.21 Matt Erley And so that's what we get from Grass League as well as good owners that are building great brands within their own teams that are competitive with one another and in all of the right ways. And that's going to be a rising tide within the overall league of grass league to continue to do well. And you're going to see more tournaments. You're going to see more venues. 28:57.06 Matt Erley You're going to see more coverage, 29:01.23 Matt Erley It's just a fun, different way to watch and experience golf. And it it's a little uncomfortable at first if you're just used to watching the PGA tour, which I still love to watch, but it's different, just like it's different to watch TGL. I think a lot of the early people, the early haters maybe in the TGL space were like, well, this is just such a strange thing to watch. And it's like, yeah, you're right. 29:24.30 Matt Erley That's the point, right? It's, it's different. You can't come into it thinking you're going to watch a PGA tour event. And so with any emerging league, try it out. And it's understanding, learning about who these people are and the great backgrounds of players. And Grass League has some unbelievable talent in the players that are sitting in Grass League. 29:47.16 Matt Erley US amateur champions and elite amateurs that ah that are um just great personalities and great people to follow. and And so I think it's going to be a lot of fun to see how those personalities come more and more into the the attention of those leagues. 30:03.13 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah, you touched on that a gateway or that introduction to golf to people then playing. It's not through the PGA Tour that to kind of that trickle down effect. It is more that rising up from the bottom. And I saw that 30:20.67 The ModGolf Podcast When I was in Ireland speaking at a business conference golf business conference, and I was in Dublin, just played around a round of golf by myself, showed up, first tee, there was a 20-year-old guy that was a junior member there, and he's only played golf for two years, and he was already down to about 12, 13 handicap, lovely guy, and I just asked him, the question, "how did you start playing golf? What motivated you?" And he played soccer, football, all his life. And it was through YouTube golf with Grant Horvat and Good Good and Bob Does Sports. 30:50.77 Matt Erley right Yeah. 30:51.88 The ModGolf Podcast He started watching all these guys and that's what got him hooked. Not anybody on the PGA Tour. So I know that's just one example, but I think there's hundreds of thousands of examples. 31:01.21 Matt Erley It's an ecosystem now and we need to treat it as such. And if you want the best place to watch the most elite players in the world, it's the PGA tour and, and it's an amazing product, right? And, and being able to watch the highest level tournaments at great golf courses, that's where you get it. But not everyone's looking for that or people are looking for that and other things. And so Grass League has their own fan base and what they represent. 31:31.44 Matt Erley TGL has their own in the fact that, by the way, being able to watch golf. in the evening on, let's say a ah Wednesday night, that's pretty fun too. 31:42.39 Matt Erley There's no PGA Tour event on at that time. 31:44.75 Matt Erley So it's also the time of which we're viewing the things, the way we're viewing them, the the pace at which these move along, the types of audiences. So these are all really, really good things for golf. 31:55.38 Matt Erley And they fit into their own pocket of who's viewing them. And we like that and we want exposure across kind of the full spectrum. 32:06.05 The ModGolf Podcast Yes, yes. Well, I won't ask you about what a Grass League experience is like in a tournament because I want to hold off on that because hopefully in the next few weeks and you'll make that introduction, I hope that we'll have one or both of the founders of Grass League gone and they can tell me that story. 32:21.84 The ModGolf Podcast So why don't we keep moving here? 32:21.96 Matt Erley Sounds good. 32:23.86 The ModGolf Podcast And I want to talk about another investment that you've made, a company that I'm familiar with, and that's Blue Jeans Golf and Golf Ranch. So with them, it seems like when they started out, there was really no technology involved. 32:35.85 The ModGolf Podcast they saw this gap in this opportunity. So why don't you tell me about how you were attracted to them and what stage they were at and you were comfortable that, yes, they they have built this out enough that it was time for us with our investment thesis to invest in them. 32:49.25 The ModGolf Podcast So so tell us a bit about that one. 32:49.88 Matt Erley Yeah, I'm glad you asked about Blue jeans We're very excited about this investment. And it's a it's another narrative category thread that we're pulling on, which we are referring to as golf light. 33:04.89 Matt Erley And so that's this pocket of experiencing and playing golf. 33:05.35 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 33:12.15 Matt Erley that is not traditional golf, but it's also not necessarily golf entertainment, right? It's something in the middle. So we think about golf light as driving ranges, par threes, municipal short courses, 33:29.32 Matt Erley And some of the overlaps of golf entertainment that you might bucket those like a putt shack or it's places where there's golfers there bringing golf clubs and playing a version of the game, but maybe it's a little faster. It's a little 33:49.09 Matt Erley less expensive. It's a little more of a quick hit of the golf, the golf experience. And so Blue Jeans Golf falls really squarely in that space. And it's Michael and Devin, the two founders, they were internal at Topgolf and they saw an opportunity to not just the model of Topgolf, which has been easily the most important business in bringing new players into this, what we would call golf curious, individuals, people who don't golf, bringing them in and putting a golf club in their hand. 34:24.64 Matt Erley It's been incredible business and in driving new players into the game. But also a lot of those folks, they're looking for something. 34:36.26 Matt Erley What's next? What's the ecosystem of what's next? And that's probably not walking out onto a traditional 18 hole golf course and playing around a golf. And so this golf light space kind of falls in the middle of all that. And so Devin and Michael decided one, a good model for us is to go out and start to acquire the thousand or so independently owned driving ranges that are across the country, which are the coffee shop, the meeting place of the golf world. 35:05.82 Matt Erley going to a good driving range is great. It's just fun. It's like being able to go hit balls for 45 minutes and pay 20 bucks and, 35:10.99 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 35:15.76 Matt Erley have a beer or glass of wine, like that's just a great experience. And so they're leaning into that. They've done a phenomenal job of, of rolling up a number of 35:26.65 Matt Erley these ranges to date and and just doing a little bit of a glow up, right? You're not putting $20 million dollars into these things. You're putting some CapEx in shot tracer on the range, flat top doing hot dogs and burgers, better golf balls, better mats. Like, let's just make these things, let's make them nice for what their job is. 35:47.56 Matt Erley and a great community environment. We're excited about that business because we think that there is a huge opportunity in glowing up these thousand driving ranges that they tend to be independently owned. And that's going to be such a resilient pocket of the golf space as well, because it really doesn't matter what happens macro wise. 36:13.19 Matt Erley people are probably still going to go to driving ranges. And so as investors, when we put our investor hat on, like I am a fan, squarely a fan of what they do Blue Jeans and their product, which is is Golf Ranch. 36:24.31 Matt Erley But when I put my investor hat on, because I have to separate being a fan of golf from being an investor in golf, because just being a fan is a good way to potentially lose a lot of money because you might, we call it like the the golf investor goggles sometimes where, man, this is so cool, but hey, does it return capital? 36:36.99 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 36:40.43 Matt Erley Are they operating in a big market? Do they have good founders? um BlueJeans just checks all those boxes. They have such an opportunity to scale and to create really profitable businesses in the driving range category. And so very bullish on golf light, very bullish on what they're doing at BlueJeans. I think that there are just so many good pockets within golf light, whether that's, again, municipal courses, par threes, short courses, where golf is going to be played in a slightly different way by this new 37:13.03 Matt Erley group of golfers who are coming into the game today who are looking for something a little different and by traditional golfers who also maybe don't always have the time for that long round of golf or that traditional experience. 37:26.17 The ModGolf Podcast Love this, love this. Well, I could run through all 13 of your investments that I see on your website here, but I do want to save, as I mentioned, a couple of these to show on the ModGolf YouTube channel when we jump over there. 37:38.87 The ModGolf Podcast But just looking at some of your investments between Dryvebox and Birdie Houses, and then you've got an apparel brand here with QuietGolf. So what the questions I want to finish up with? for you here, Matt, is is do you look at synergy across the portfolio where one plus one can equal three that now with maybe this one over here can plug into this one over here and add to to the value of each one of those? 38:03.69 The ModGolf Podcast Is that part of your overarching strategic ah plan when you look at some of these things? 38:08.56 Matt Erley Yes. 38:09.66 The ModGolf Podcast Or is it at least a factor that you want to consider that that's a bonus if that actually plays with what you already have? 38:13.07 Matt Erley Absolutely. Yeah, it's a great question. And you certainly have to treat every investment on its own, it needs to stand up on its own and be a great investment. 38:26.24 Matt Erley But yes, app absolutely. One of the reasons why we're doing this and why we love doing this in a narrow category like golf is that there are, everything is kind of synergistic. Everything's a roll up. Everything has the ability to interact with one another. 38:45.97 Matt Erley Some of those are through the golfer themselves. Some are those are thinking about distribution into the golf course or, they're all opportunities to kind of sit alongside each other. And so our investment firm, we like to think of where we're going as some sort of, it some sort of version of a you know, Blackstone meets LVMH in the golf space. Right. And why I use those as examples is Blackstone did so well as a private equity firm in going into narrative investment spaces and understanding those better than anyone and and starting to invest in and buy and roll up in those categories. And then you look at an LVMH and they they're a holding company in the luxury category, right? And so anything that they touch is a thread that's moving between the luxury shopper and buyer. And so they can take advantage of that. 39:39.56 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 39:41.74 Matt Erley And for us in golf, it's a very similar perspective is that as we continue to scale and invest in more companies and own more companies, there are obvious threads, economies of scale and ways of of of thinking about the customers and And that really are beneficial and a lot of arbitrage to us. And they're great for the companies that we get involved in. I mean, the moment we write a check, we we like to think that we give that company an unfair competitive advantage um to do well because of who we are and and what we put into it and in the network that we've built. 40:19.00 Matt Erley And so, that's a a huge part of how we operate and how we think about being able to do well for ourselves and our investors. 40:27.39 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah, I just wanted to expand on what you had just said there as far as that network, because there are some investors, especially with some angels, where it's all about the money. They'll put it in and then that then the only conversation they want is to see when the return is happening. 40:41.05 The ModGolf Podcast And as you know, you just have to wait five to 10 years. yet It's a long-term thing. 40:44.06 Matt Erley Yep. Yep. yeah 40:45.20 The ModGolf Podcast But it sounds like you add so much more to that with yourself and your network that you're making introductions that you're helping on the business side when it's appropriate. So there's extra value there. 40:56.63 The ModGolf Podcast Is that something that you really hold dearly to? 40:58.77 Matt Erley Yes. Yeah, there's a good balance of that. You want to find great operators and let them go do their job and great operators need capital to be able to survive along the way. And we say one of our internal monikers is time is arbitrage. 41:18.66 Matt Erley If you're a startup, you need to be in market for a long time to be able to see value. 41:23.18 Matt Erley And so we like to come in, deploy capital, trust the process that those founders and operators, the journey they're on, and then be extremely additive where we can be helpful and be there to be supportive and have an opinion at times. And also to support the journey that they're on. And we're operators ourselves. And so we're building a startup at Old Tom Capital and know the journey. 41:59.11 Matt Erley But yeah, companies and founders need good people to surround them. And that's what we're all about doing. So sometimes we'll take a board seat. Sometimes we'll be a little less involved in the day to day. The old way of thinking about venture investing and even private equity to some degree is you're you're writing a lot of checks and you're hoping that the power law dynamic is like you're hoping that three or four out of, i don't know, a hundred are going be billion dollar exits and they're going to return the capital for the whole portfolio. 42:39.35 Matt Erley The problem with that thinking is that you write off all of the others that don't seem to get close to that. 42:45.95 The ModGolf Podcast yes 42:46.27 Matt Erley I think that's a poor way to operate as an investor. And our perspective is that We're going to try to help all of our companies do well. And even if that means for some of them, they're going to have a 2x return over five years, that's okay. And we would like to see the most return possible, but we want to get heavily involved. We don't want to write 100 checks a year. We want to write far less and and be be very involved and very additive and help have a much higher hit rate, both for us as well as for the founders that are spending all their time on one thing, which is that company. 43:21.39 Matt Erley They're not investing in a hundred things and just get to go, oh, well, some of these are going to go out of business and that's okay. So I think that's our perspective coming more from an operating background and how we view our relationship with our portfolio companies. 43:33.56 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah, well, I'm happy to hear that you dismiss that old school Silicon Valley investment kind of moonshot approach that, yes, if it's got to be a hundred x or it's got to be nothing. 43:39.58 Matt Erley Right, right. 43:45.22 The ModGolf Podcast I'd like to hear that. Okay, to finish up here, I'm going to put this out here because sounds like yourself and me have been in the technology and golf venture and investment side for a while now. I've been at this for a dozen years or so. So I've seen trends come and go, whether it's blockchain and cryptocurrency and everything getting frothy and there may not even be a business behind it. 44:10.28 Matt Erley right 44:10.56 The ModGolf Podcast And right now, of course, with AI for the last couple of years. So what do you look, I'm sure you you're kind of flooded and inundated with all kinds of AI-fueled ventures. 44:22.00 The ModGolf Podcast So give me your thoughts on that, what you look for, because AI is a tool. It's not necessarily a business. 44:27.33 Matt Erley Yeah. 44:27.90 The ModGolf Podcast So what do you look for there when you get ah an AI-backed venture that approaches you? 44:32.19 Matt Erley Yeah it's like it's like saying, 25 years ago, how about these internet companies, right? 44:42.80 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 44:43.08 Matt Erley Like it's like that, that the internet is the product. I mean, the internet was the distribution. It was the underlying thing sitting across everything that was about to come. Right. 44:52.86 The ModGolf Podcast right 44:53.53 Matt Erley I think AI is the same. I'm not going to downplay the importance of AI because it's, it's the internet of, of today. If you're not using it or building with it or thinking about it, then you might as well be one of these companies 25 years ago that said, you know I'm not going to I'm not going to create a website because I'm not sure this whole internet thing is going to, going to work out. 45:15.37 The ModGolf Podcast Right. right 45:16.56 Matt Erley So I think of AI in that way in golf is that it is a tool, a platform, a thread that everyone needs to be integrating into their own businesses. 45:30.48 Matt Erley there is an inherent risk to oftentimes lean into AI and say, we need to everything needs to be AI today. And AI is going to be needed in all of these different pockets. And I think that you you've got to be careful not to be have a solution looking for a problem um because Yeah, there's a lot of problems in the golf space that are being AI is going to solve. 46:03.38 Matt Erley But I think the you got to start with high utility problems, things that really are problems, whether that is it's expensive to run a golf course and it's expensive to handle operations within a golf course. 46:18.75 Matt Erley AI obviously can solve a lot of those challenges, whether it's how a Tee sheet's run or a phone calls are taken or back office operations are handled within a golf course environment, right? Like that seems obvious and there's great companies that we've seen building in those pockets. 46:36.37 Matt Erley So when it you have to separate the hype of AI and the the high utility of AI, and I think the companies that are focused on the high utility elements of how AI is facilitating and solving for the golfer or the PGA professional or the operator within a golf course or the agronomy team, that's where it's really important and special. 47:06.63 Matt Erley Again, my concern is that sometimes AI is treated as the product, but to me, AI is the thing that enhances the product. 47:15.65 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 47:20.22 Matt Erley AI is the thing that enhances the company. And so, whether it's golf or anything else, you've got to separate some of that and make sure that you're really solving those challenges. But some great some absolutely great innovative individuals in the AI space in golf that are that are really thinking deeply about this and building some great things. And we're paying attention. 47:44.71 The ModGolf Podcast There we go, there we go. Okay, to finish up here, gonna use this theme with Grass League of being par threes. I'm gonna ask you our lightning round of three questions. So here we go, here's our, are your three shots. i'm gonna ask you these. So best golf movie of all time, what's your choice? 48:03.98 Matt Erley Best golf movie of all time is it's still Tin Cup for me. 48:09.53 The ModGolf Podcast There we go, there we go. 48:10.43 Matt Erley Yep. 48:27.74 The ModGolf Podcast Okay, next up, what is one piece of technology that you cannot live without on the golf course when you're playing around? 48:35.82 Matt Erley Oh, boy. It's the one place I don't have my phone out, which is great. Right. 48:42.51 The ModGolf Podcast That is good. 48:42.58 Matt Erley Literally in my life. The one time that I don't have my phone out, which is kind of kind of scary. 48:52.78 Matt Erley I don't use any technology on the golf course, honestly, Colin. It's kind of crazy. I feel like I'm such a purist out there. And so I would reverse it and say, it's the only time in my life where you could ask me that question. And I would say, I don't think there's any technology I sit without there. I just like having my clubs and a couple granola bars and being out on the golf course. 49:13.49 The ModGolf Podcast Love it. Love it. Okay, last question. Your dream foursome. So those three other people that you want to play with, anyone in history that's still with us or have passed away I have a feeling I know who one of them is going to be, but go for it. 49:27.08 Matt Erley coming up in the tiger era, I'll put Tiger in the group. I'll put Arnold Palmer in the group just because I'm a huge Arnie guy. 49:42.77 Matt Erley And I think that Arnie had more swagger than any golfer in the history of the game. 49:47.40 The ModGolf Podcast Absolutely. 49:47.45 Matt Erley And so that's pretty awesome. And I'm going to put Winston Churchill in the group as well. I think that would really round out the group with a great political figure that I'm a big fan of. 50:00.80 The ModGolf Podcast Interesting. See, i thought for sure you're going to have old Tom Morris on that group. 50:01.95 Matt Erley Yeah. 50:05.00 The ModGolf Podcast I was surprised. 50:05.60 Matt Erley You know, it felt a little cliche, Colin. 50:08.61 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah, it was a little too on the nose, a little too obvious. 50:09.35 Matt Erley It felt a little cliche. Yeah. Yeah, I would if it was a if it was a two on two match play kind of match, it I would take old Tom, be me and old Tom against whoever wants to try to go after us. 50:11.65 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. 50:22.47 Matt Erley So yeah, that's right. 50:22.87 The ModGolf Podcast You and old Tom versus the world. I like that. In our previous call that we had get to know each other a month or so ago, I did mention this little fun fact that my cousin, I'm not directly related to him, is a direct descendant of old Tom Morris. 50:39.03 The ModGolf Podcast My last name is Weston. His first name is Weston. His last name is Morris. And it's my understanding that his father He's named Tom Morris. And is directly related, i don't know if that makes him a great grandson how that works out. 50:53.58 The ModGolf Podcast But apparently I have a direct descendancy to, connection anyway, to old Tom. 50:54.40 Matt Erley I love it. 51:01.18 Matt Erley They might call you old Colin at some point. 51:03.38 The ModGolf Podcast There we go. Well, I'm getting to that age. 51:05.55 The ModGolf Podcast Well, my kids are already saying that. Yeah already happened. 51:07.97 Matt Erley That's right. 51:07.99 The ModGolf Podcast yeah 51:08.25 Matt Erley I love that. I love that lineage. 51:08.82 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. To finish up, before we jump over to YouTube, Matt, why don't you let our listeners know if we have some aspiring entrepreneurs out there that have ideas and now everybody's like ready to clamour on and reach out to you, let them know a how they can connect with you and also where they should be on their journey. 51:27.60 The ModGolf Podcast maybe there's still a year or two or three or certain milestones away from making that conversation worthwhile. 51:32.53 Matt Erley Yeah. 51:35.34 Matt Erley Always happy to have people reach out. We, you can find us at old Tom capital.com. I think there's a contact link in there that pushes you to an email, which is founders@oldTomcapital.com, which you can reach out to, which is our inbox for deal flow and opportunities and and conversations. 51:49.07 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 51:55.59 Matt Erley There's never a bad time to reach out. I think that in order for us to make a decision to get involved in something or to even really start that diligence process and have those conversations, we need to see a little bit of momentum, right? So if you're at the beginning of your journey, keep going and keep building. We're here to be helpful and a resource. And if you're if you feel like you're building in a category that has a lot of upside that, we like to say, 52:27.30 Matt Erley how are you building a business that you think can be a hundred million dollar plus business? And if you're not, that is totally fine, right? Honestly, it might be a mistake to try to go build a hundred million dollar plus business. 52:38.58 Matt Erley I don't need a hundred million dollars. So go build a $1 million dollar business. And that sounds great but if you're building a one hundred million dollar plus business and you think that's the size of the category within golf that you're going after, and you've got some good momentum to show that progress and You're a great founding team, we'd love to talk. 52:59.35 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. Love this. Well, with that, Matt Erley, managing partner with Old Tom Capital. Thank you so much for pulling the curtain back on what makes you guys tick and kind of giving some of the internal workings of an investment firm. 53:15.03 Matt Erley Yeah. 53:15.47 The ModGolf Podcast Because I think a lot of people have this kind of this preconceived notion or think it's this mysterious thing, but you've done a great job to humanize that. 53:23.82 The ModGolf Podcast So I thank for that. 53:24.21 Matt Erley Well, we appreciate it. i can say definitively that we play less golf than we used to. And you might think that a golf investor just gets to run around and play golf every day, but I will say the quality of golf has gone up quite a bit. So not the quality of my game, but the quality of the golf courses that we play has certainly gone up. It's a lot of fun calling and appreciate the opportunity to tell our story and I'm excited to have more conversations in the future. 53:57.49 The ModGolf Podcast Good stuff. Good stuff. All right. Well, I look forward to joining you over on YouTube with ModGolf. And for now, Matt, thanks so much. and we'll talk soon.