Colin Wynn Good morning Ian, welcome to Moving Matters. How are you today? Ian Palmer Thanks very much Colin. Great, thank you. Colin Wynn Can you tell everyone a little about yourself and the length of time in this industry? Ian Palmer Yeah. I've worked for White & Company, officially with a contract for 43 years. I joined them in July 1977, straight from school. I grew up in Plymouth, in Devon, and my father was White & Company branch manager. And I guess like anyone else who comes into this industry, it was through really a case of child abuse really. I sort of started washing their vans, when I was about 12 or 13, only up to the level of the SignWriting because I wasn't that tall then. Colin Wynn You weren't on a cherry picker or anything like that? Ian Palmer Oh, God, no, they wouldn't spend money on cherry pickers. A rickety old stepladder. But yeah, it was. I mean, it wasn't my intention to come into the industry that way. It just, like it does for so many of us, it just happens. Originally, I would have liked to have been a geography teacher. But really, I probably offended so many teachers by the time I left school, that none of them are particularly happy to help me. I then tried to get into the Royal Navy as a navigation officer. Having passed all the entrance exams, I failed the medical because I'm a bit colorblind. And you know, they didn't want any other Torrey Canyon events sort of happening whilst I was the navigation officer. And I didn't want to accept the lower position. Colin Wynn Fair enough. Fair enough. Ian Palmer Absolutely. I wanted the gold braid and a couple of years at Dartmouth. Colin Wynn So into the removal industry, you came. Ian Palmer Yeah. And my father had always been quite a disciplinarian. I secured myself a job to join HMRC then, but I had to wait until my 17th birthday before I could join them. And down in Plymouth, they had two large highperformance sort of cutters, which went out into the western approaches to intercept ships that were coming up through the approaches. And that was another way into a maritime job. But during the year I or eight months, I had to wait. I started working on the vans, travelling all over the place. And my father who had been quite a disciplinarian all his life, asked me why I wasn't particularly happy about things. And I said, I didn't really want to I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And he went from being very strict to very cool, and said, do you want to work on the vans for a couple of years? And that was it. Colin Wynn So that was at a White & Co branch? Ian Palmer Yeah, that was in Plymouth. Colin Wynn And how long was he manager of that branch? Ian Palmer He had been manager since the early 70s I guess. Colin Wynn So do you class yourself then as a second generation removal man? Ian Palmer Yeah, I'm second generation and my eldest son, Adam, who's just coming up for 30 is third generation. Colin Wynn So removal blood runs in the family. Ian Palmer Yeah, I mean, for Adam, it was even worse, really, I mean, from a very young age. All he wanted to do was to do with trucks, everything, he would sit on the doormat, you know, on a Saturday morning waiting me to take him to work. And I guess he was probably about four or five at the time. Colin Wynn So you started off at Whites cleaning vehicles, and it progressed to what next? Portering? Driving? Ian Palmer Portering. I was, I still am a really good Packer. Not too many of the men like doing the packing and I was quick and pretty efficient at it. Colin Wynn And then did you progress into HGV? Ian Palmer I never did my HGV, which is possibly a little bit of a regret. I used to drive the smaller vehicles the seven and a half tonners. I mean, I can drive HGV trucks but I just haven't got a licence for it. And from that I progressed into estimating really. My father was looking for a new estimator. I just said I could do that job. And the Managing Director of Whites at the time a guy called Geoff Honeywell sort of authorised it really. So I went into their management trainee management programme. Colin Wynn So White & Co had a trainee management programme? Ian Palmer Yeah. Colin Wynn So you went through that. Did you do any of the BAR training? Ian Palmer Yeah, I did my CRE which is the certificate and removal estimating. I was awarded the Michael Gerson medal, which is best practical surveyor. I then did my ordinary certificate in removals management, and then my higher certificate of removals management, which gave me my International CPC. Colin Wynn So how long did you remain a surveyor? Ian Palmer Well, I left Plymouth when I was 20. I was offered a job in our branch in Forres in Morayshire in the North of Scotland. Colin Wynn That's a long way away from Plymouth. Ian Palmer I asked to be moved really because I wanted to progress and I thought they'd give me Bournemouth so I could nip home with my washing and things at weekends. They offered me Forres or Harrogate, and all I knew about Harrogate was tea shops. And at the time, I was pretty much into outward bound sort of activities, and I didn't think there would be a better place to do it than Scotland. Ian Palmer So I went up there when I was 20. I was an Estimator. But I was also made Assistant Manager. Was up there a couple of years and eventually got married up there when I was about 23. And the year following that, unfortunately, my father died at a very young age, he was only 46. And I was asked if I wanted to move back and manage Plymouth, which I felt was the best thing to do. So I became a Manager when I was 25. Colin Wynn That's a young age to become a Manager. Ian Palmer Yeah, Plymouth was quite tame branch though, to be a manager at. Colin Wynn So you went into the management side of it, how long did you stay a Manager of that branch? Ian Palmer Till 1980, late 1988. I was asked if I'd like to go back to Forres. So my wife and I up sticks and left them and went back to Forres, so I was then managing a much larger branch. We were running about 16 vehicles at the time. So that was great fun. I really enjoyed managing Forres. You're far enough away from head office that they couldn't get hold of you very easily. Colin Wynn Did they have a need to then? Ian Palmer I'm sure they did. Yeah, I'm sure they probably did. So but I really enjoyed working in Scotland. It was just great fun. And I was working with some real characters up there. And some drivers who just got on with things you know, there wasn't a lot of whingeing there. We were in such a remote location, you know. And it was a small town that I worked in, everybody knew each other. Everybody knew each other's kids. It was hard work, but easy work. Colin Wynn And what prompted you to move back down South? Ian Palmer Well, while I was up in Forres, after a number of years, I was made a director of the company when I was about 35, I think. And we just opened up a branch in North London. So in I think it was either 1995 or 1996, I was asked to go and run that branch, which had been open from cold. And so we then toddled off down to live in Hertfordshire in Ware and I was running our branch there in Waltham Cross. Right, right at junction 25 of the M25, I ran that through until 2003. Which, you know that that was a difficult branch to run. It wasn't easy there wouldn't say I enjoyed working and living in London, I enjoyed Hertfordshire that was very nice place. And by then we had two sons, two young sons as well. Colin Wynn Why so hard in London, is that because it was like a brand new Depo just starting out? Ian Palmer Well, that wasn't a problem. But the different characters, the attitude of staff wasn't what we/I was used to in the Northern Highlands. You know, it was an uphill battle trying to get staff there. And I think generally still is and staff retention was difficult, you know, they would move anywhere for 25p an hour extra. But again, I mean, I was blessed with a core staff there who are some of them are still there, and they're they were really good. I have no knowledge of London whatsoever. So I did rely on people pretty heavily, you know, when you programme something, in Enfield in the morning and put them down in Kingston upon Thames in the afternoon, I really had no concept of where places were. Ian Palmer Hold on, you wanted to be a geography teacher, at the start of this! Ian Palmer Yeah I did, well picked up. Colin Wynn So what was after London? Ian Palmer Well, in 2003 whilst I was at London for about six months, I was also managing our branches in Jersey on Guernsey, which was, I think, struggling at the time, I think that's fair to say. So I would do one week in each, I was pretty blessed with a very strong Operations Manager, and he was able to focus on London. So I helped out in Jersey and Guernsey. Ian Palmer And then, in 2003, I was asked if I'd like to move to head office in Southampton. It was a bit of a nonspecific role, really. Yeah, it was pretty nonspecific. I was doing a fair amount of international work by then. And I thought that that's what I would be doing, which suited me as well. But over a period of about five months, I was doing more and more sort of understudying to the then Chief Executive, Nick Nicklinson. And then in April of 2003, I was asked to become Chief Executive. Colin Wynn So you've done this role now for a number of years. And you are currently based where exactly? Ian Palmer Botley in Southampton, outside Southampton. Colin Wynn So let's talk about Whites a little bit. History, I see it started in 1871. Ian Palmer Yeah, next year will be our 150th anniversary of being in business. Colin Wynn And you have any celebration plans. If COVID doesn't ruin them? Ian Palmer We've got plans whether they'll materialise or not another matter. And, you know, it is important for the company to celebrate that. But it's more important that we concentrate on keeping the business running at the moment. We plan to do something at each branch and we providing the BAR conference goes ahead in May in Jersey, then we'll hold a celebration there. Colin Wynn So a bit of history on White & Co. Ian Palmer Well, it was founded by A.W. White in Portsmouth in 1871. We worked a lot with the Navy through a laundry company that led us to having staff cartidge facilities in the dock yard. And that soon morphed into transportation and then removals, and we grew alongside the Great Western Railway. In fact, up until I would have thought the early 50s our vehicle livery was almost identical to the Great Western Railway. Our old tunnel van which we display at county shows throughout the summer is still in the GWR livery. Colin Wynn Maybe for the centenary there should be a waggon in those colours? Ian Palmer Maybe, they weren't really particularly inspiring colours, there's all brown going on. Colin Wynn Oh, don't say that you'll upset Purdies! Ian Palmer I'm over that now. Colin Wynn So how many branches do Whites have? Ian Palmer Well, with our subsidiaries, we've got 19 at the moment. Colin Wynn And how many trucks are involved in those 19 branches, and staff wise have you got a staff count? Ian Palmer We've got 210 vehicles and 460 staff. Colin Wynn How do you manage all of that? Ian Palmer Well, I think I manage it quite well actually. Colin Wynn Yeah but how? Ian Palmer How, well, we've got a good board of directors who take away a lot of the pressure. We've got dedicated management at each branch. We've always been well trained. And we've got a good central core administrative team who takes away a lot of the HR issues and payroll. But the managers themselves keep a lot from me. If you like, there, we got a good bunch. I think most of our staff have got quite a our management team have got quite a bit of longevity of service. We're not like Premiership clubs hiring and firing on one year's results. Colin Wynn And do you still do your own training programmes? Ian Palmer We mostly rely on the BAR's training programmes and the Road Haulage Association. But mostly the BAR. We are members of OMNI and FIDI and FIDI in particular, do some fabulous training courses on the international work. And we make good use of them in sort of October, November of each year. Colin Wynn What is the relationship of the companies purchased in recent years to White's? Do they run as their own company, or do they become a White branch? Ian Palmer We run them completely as their own companies. They've got separate P&L's from White & Company. And they're all owned by our parent company, which is Whitport Limited. We, in my view, we made a mistake in about 2005 when we acquired a company, and we sort of forced our own brand upon that company. And that never quite worked. We had dual branding, when we bought Lund Conlon in Bedford and I thought we made a mistake there we we paid a lot for the goodwill. And we should have retained that goodwill. So everyone centres run is run its own P&L and sharing common common savings, you know, with backroom office work, material purchasing, fuel, vehicle purchasing. Colin Wynn So you mentioned FIDI, and OMNI, which then obviously means you do overseas, you do commercial, you do domestic, what sort of breakdown of turnover are those as a percentage? Ian Palmer Our international and European business accounts for about 45% of our work. Colin Wynn An awful lot. Ian Palmer Yeah. Ian Palmer And the rest really is, by and large domestic. We do do some commercial. But it's by accident rather than design. We don't particularly promote ourselves in the commercial field. With so many of our trucks being on the continent for most of the time, Colin, it's difficult to then get guys to be enthusiastic about doing office and commercial work at the weekends, you know, they might come home for a decent break. Colin Wynn So what challenges have you had to overcome? You can do this as a Branch Manager in your earlier years, and now as your Chief Executive years. Ian Palmer I think in my earlier years, there was the boss's son issues that inevitably come up. But I think I work my way through them. And I think most people always viewed me as a very hardworking person. I was always, you know, easy to go along, I was very flexible with what I did. So that was pretty much easily overcome. Challenges, professionally beyond that, I'm very impatient. And I've had to learn to sort of curb that a little. As a junior manager., and I really don't advocate this, you know, the red mist did come down a lot. So I think over over the years, I've learned to see other people's points of view, even if they're wrong. Colin Wynn More often than not, they're wrong? Ian Palmer Well, I always take the view that if I'm going to take the fall for it, then it probably is going to be my view. Colin Wynn Absolutely. I have to agree with that one. Colin Wynn And if you could change anything from the past, what would it be? Ian Palmer I really I don't dwell much in the past. Colin. There, there's one company I regret us not not purchasing. So I think that that's My only regret a little bit more effort on our part, and I'm sure we would have secured it. Colin Wynn Well, that's not such a bad regret is it. That's more of a just a missed opportunity I would have thought. Colin Wynn So what is your high point of being in the industry? Ian Palmer Well, personally, when I was made CEO, I was over the moon I never thought I would have achieved that. I was pretty pleased when I was a Branch Manager. But when I was made CEO, that was a personal high point. But when I became President of BAR that was a pretty special occasion for me. Colin Wynn But being made the CEO must be right up there. I mean, to start off, as you said at the start the podcast, cleaning the vehicles and then doing obviously portering, packing, estimating. You've literally gone and done, and as you say you can drive HGV vehicles but you don't have the licence, but you've pretty much gone and done everything there is in the removal industry to get where you are today. Ian Palmer Yeah, I always think you, you shouldn't ask someone to do something that you're not prepared to do yourself and commit to. A few years ago at work one of the young lads in the yard was being rather lippy, and I said to him, I'd give up my lunchtime if he gave up his lunchtime and see who could pack a carton of china and glass the quickest. I remember this lad going he was up for it and the foreman put his hand on his shoulder and he said just sit down. Colin Wynn What one thing would you change within the moving industry? Ian Palmer Um, I think the conveyancing situation has always been a major frustration, if that could be changed, and how removal companies are looked at. That would be something in which would make everyone's lives so much easier. I would also like to change the way removal companies are viewed in general, you know, we're pretty much at the bottom of the food chain. And, and that, in a way prevents us from paying our really hardworking staff, enough money. Because they're worth more, but there just isn't enough money in the industry to pay them that much more. So those are the two things that I would really like to change, and they are connected it is how the way the mover is viewed. Colin Wynn And how can we go about changing both of those, especially the latter? Ian Palmer I think we've really got to maintain our professionalism. During the covid pandemic, particularly in the early stages of it, I think that BAR in particular really led the conversation on how we should all behave not just in our industry, but in associated industries, such as you know, conveyancing solicitors, estate agents, we'd lead that discussion, I would like to see some of that respect, stick to us. Colin Wynn Is it also a case that it's a very easy industry to get into? You don't really actually got to go out and buy a van these days. I mean, I could go down to my local van hire company, and I can hire a van for 70 quid. Ian Palmer That's abolutely true Colin. It's really much unregulated. Colin Wynn Yeah, very much so. Ian Palmer Very much unregulated. And you know that there was a fashion for ex servicemen starting up their own companies, and suddenly they were international remover, taking trucks down to Spain. Anyone with redundancy can acquire a cheap three and a half tonner. And although they've got their place, the new sort of genre of these knee high type vehicles, that's sort of aiding things in that direction again, you know, people can do removals, very easily, very cheaply, without actually having to demonstrate that they are professional. Colin Wynn Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure that even my local van hire will do a transit van at 70 pounds a day. I mean, you had to go out and hire that, pull a friend in or two, do a quick so called removal, there's money to be made there. Ian Palmer There is for a certain element of the population. Once you start to build up a reasonable quantity of valuable possessions, then I think place is still there for the professional, full service mover. Colin Wynn I would agree with you, but how do we get these people that have got these possessions to pay more for their removal than they do for their 45 inch TV that's hanging on their wall? Ian Palmer Well, I think and I say this to all of our sales team that we've got to be proud of our price. We actually have to sell our services. You know, people might be attracted to us the brand, but they buy from the individual. And our surveyors have got to be less focused on establishing accurate volume and concentrating on the sales process. Colin Wynn And probably making the customer aware of the removal process. It's not just a case of moving your furniture into a back of a truck and transporting it down the road, it's all carefully stacked inside that truck so that nothing is going to move. And they're not just picking up a table and putting it on the back of a truck. They're putting things on top of the table, once it's covered, they're putting things under the table. If they've got any freestanding wardrobes, they're putting things inside the wardrobes. Customers don't know that, customers still to this day don't know that if their goods are going into storage a truck's going to turn up with wooden boxes on it. Ian Palmer No, no, that is a struggle. And yet, we have literally shoals of excellent quality control records come across my desk every week. And after the event, so many customers remark about how professional we were and how they made the right choice. But getting them to understand that pre service is difficult. Colin Wynn So you mentioned about the pandemic, how has White & Co dealt with the pandemic being nationwide, multi branch? Ian Palmer I think the short answer is Ian Palmer I think we've dealt with Ian Palmer it really well. Initially it, it seemed like a cliff, we were going to drop off BAR stepped up there game, and issued well considered protocols, which we were able to adopt, and adapt our business life to. We've tried, always right throughout the pandemic, to think of our colleagues, especially those who are going out and are customer facing, we've provided them with every conceivable piece of PPE, we have amended our practices, we've reduced the number of people that can be in our vehicle cabs, we've sent out customer information packs, saying how we'll behave at the time of the survey, how we expect the customer to behave as well. And then we've repeated that when we come to undertake removals, we've reduced the amount of time that we actually spend in the customer's house by doing a lot of pre planning. And we've reduced the number of physical surveys by doing virtual surveys. I mean, I was only reviewing this this morning. And this week, 62% of our surveys will be via video. And that's been a challenge getting that all started. We work with our colleagues to find out who could work from home sensibly and safely. And that opened up a new aspect, quite a fun aspect of the business, people bought into that quite well. Ian Palmer And you mentioned earlier that you're a member or a founder member of FIDI and OMNI. Considering your businesses 45% overseas, how do they those organisations, those groups, how do they fit in with your company? Ian Palmer Well, we were founder members of each. Ian Palmer FIDI of course provides exceptional training, Ian Palmer which we're very pleased, and very proud to use. It also, like OMNI provides a standard of international service that we can expect from FIDI and OMNI members throughout the world. You know, you know what you're going to get when you book with a FIDI or an OMNI member and when we're trust, we're trusting our customers possessions into their care to deliver our promise. Colin Wynn But not all international movers are part of those groups. Ian Palmer That's correct. Which is why we always wherever possible, place our business with a FIDI or an OMNI member, you just feel you're getting that cut above. Colin Wynn And I see White & Co offer archive storage. And I have a question on archive storage because you're my first guest that does archive storage that I've been able to ask this question too, so, I'm curious how archive storage has been in recent years as the digital age takes over? Ian Palmer Well, it's funny when you put the question to me a week or so ago, I went and did a review of our archive storage. And the number of physical files we're actually storing at the moment is the highest it's ever been. We've always targeted those companies, architects, solicitors, doctors practices, who are aiming to store three 400 boxes with us. And their need to retain physical records for extraordinary periods of time still exists. Equally. We have a lot of companies that do do destruction because they're going on to digitalization what just you know, gives us another opportunity to make a sale really we'll do digitalization for them. And then the destruction of the physical files. But I surprised myself to see that we had more physical files in storage than we've ever had before. Because all I generally see is the destruction. Colin Wynn So do all the branches do archive storage? Ian Palmer Look, some do it half heartedly. And two in particular, do it as a core part of the business. But if you want archive storage and you've got converted storage container, that's what most of our branches do. But Maidmans is very strong on archiving. Our London branch is strong and archiving. Our Southampton head office is probably the largest centre. Colin Wynn I remember my days of being associated with Alton Moves Group in Bordon that we did archive storage and we had about 140 containers worth and in those days, we would just have like a row of eight containers and we'd take the backs off each container, so you open the door of the first one and you'd walk through, but you'd have to go and wear a miner's helmet, because that's the only way we can get any light in there, but that's how we would do it. And we would have them stacked too high. So 140 containers, literally open the front door and just keep walking eight containers back. Ian Palmer Yeah, I can almost hear your spurs jangling. Colin Wynn They don't do that anymore, they don't do that anymore. Ian Palmer No, no, I'm sure nobody does. Colin Wynn So what advice would you give to a young Ian just starting out in the industry? Obviously, you have two young boys in the industry, I take it both are in the industry or only one? Ian Palmer No, Adam my eldest son, he's the manager at our Winchester branch. And my youngest son, Kieran is an engineer for Exxon Mobil. So you couldn't be more worlds apart. But both have worked on the vans. You know, all the way through college. They both were all over Europe on the trucks. Colin Wynn So you must have given Adam an awful lot of advice as he's manager of Winchester. Ian Palmer Yeah. Some. Colin Wynn So what would you give yourself if you were starting again? Ian Palmer Well, listen a bit more, try and find a compromise to a solution. In fact, listen a lot more. Try to try and find a solution where you can both both parties can come out of it gracefully. I was quite ruthless, early on in my career. And I think if I had listened a bit more, and adopted that approach, I would have achieved better resolutions. Colin Wynn So have you mellowed with age then Ian? Ian Palmer No, I just find better resolutions. Colin Wynn So where do you see yourself and the industry in the next five years? Is anyone ready to step into your shoes as CEO of White & Co. Ian Palmer We've always as a company always promoted from within. And I certainly think there's two or three contenders. But I'm not prepared to retire at the moment. I'm a long way off that. I certainly think I've got a lot more to give to both the business and the industry in general. I think the industry is going to make far greater use of technology, not just in software, but I think in electric vehicles, perhaps hydrogen vehicles. And I think there's going to be a more focus on shared facilities, shared operations. Ian Palmer For myself, after the end of my presidency next May, I would hope to go back onto the overseas group Council, which has always been my main focus of interest. Colin Wynn And as you are currently the President of the BAR, how are you finding your role as President, and has the pandemic changed anything as we find ourselves more and more in this virtual world of zoom meeting after zoom meeting? Ian Palmer Well, look, it has changed BAR has stopped doing any of the area meetings, at least physical area meetings. We've stopped the training until very recently in Watford and the opportunities to hold meetings at Watford have also disappeared. However, zoom has come along and I must say in some ways it's a very practical way of getting meetings done. I think it's been very efficient. It stopped us having to eat too many curly sandwiches, out of a box in Watford when people from all over the country have had to go to Watford for meetings. I think for the area meetings, I think it's been quite a revelation, particularly back in the early spring, and mid summer when the weather was really good. Doing the area meetings, in shorts and polo shirt, out on the garden, sharing a glass of wine with 20/30 people, all through a different area was a lot of fun. And I personally met a lot of really good people that I don't think would have come to a physical meeting. Colin Wynn So do you think the BAR area meeting attendees were an increase? Ian Palmer Oh, they definitely increased. They, they dropped off a little in late summer because of course, we're, everyone's so flat out, you know, time constraints are there. But we wouldn't normally have held those meetings in mid, mid late summer. You know, everyone knows that you're too busy until the autumn months. But there were a lot of new attendees, I think a lot of people got better insight into how the BAR and particularly the areas actually worked. Colin Wynn Maybe an idea for the future is to still have our area meetings that we attend, and for those that can't we have a zoom session that's hosting the meeting there and then and they can log on. Ian Palmer I think it would be a really good idea to do that. But I wouldn't like to see the physical area meetings stop. You know, the BAR and the removal industry is incredibly sociable. And I think we all rely on having a couple shandies at the bar. And, you know, bouncing ideas around with, you know, like minded individuals. You know, and I think a lot of the area meetings are held at some fantastic old pubs where you get fed really well as well. I think people will be reluctant to give up on carveries and very traditional fare. Colin Wynn Absolutely, absolutely. It still blows my mind to this day, and I know I've had a rant on a previous podcast, but it still blows my mind that removers do not attend these meetings. It really does. I just get so much from it so much from it, not just the meeting content itself, but it's the networking before, during, after, the whole thing. And as it's also been pointed out in the past, yes, we have competitors but this is an industry where competitors do often speak to one another and, and share experiences. Ian Palmer Oh, absolutely. You know, Ian Palmer two of our competitors in particular, you know, some of my closest friends. We all understand where the relationship starts and finishes. But you can all have common ground, you can all help one another. And I don't think you achieve that completely when doing zoom meetings. Colin Wynn No, you lose the one to one. Ian Palmer Yeah. Colin Wynn So what do you do outside of the industry to switch off? Maybe you don't switch off? Ian Palmer I don't ever seek to totally switch off if I'm honest. But in my free time, I like riding my motorbike quickly and I enjoy going to see rock bands. Colin Wynn So where do you go to see those? Ian Palmer Apart from the main concert venues in the UK, we enjoy going to a venue called The Brook in Southampton which is very traditional. Probably got about 400 people in there. Colin Wynn I was going to say I don't know of The Brook, I know obviously the Guild Hall is it? Ian Palmer The Brook is like a giant converted pub with all the centre of it ripped out. Colin Wynn Yeah, see that to me sounds a perfect venue. Ian Palmer I like socialising as well. I like outdoor cooking. Colin Wynn What about golf? Ian Palmer Well, I have but it's probably not as most people would recognise it. I tend to use the wrong bats. Colin Wynn I don't get golf, I don't understand why people want to hit a ball 200 yards and put it in a little hole. Ian Palmer I used to quite enjoy it when the boys were younger. We're quite close to a golf course and to come home of a Friday night and just go and do nine holes, I really enjoyed that. But then they got significantly better than me, and I stopped enjoying it. Colin Wynn Isn't always the case... Ian Palmer And also during the summer months I really like going and watching cricket. I live very close to Hampshire's ground, Ian Palmer the Rose Bowl, Ian Palmer and I like the T20 stuff and the Test matches. I mean, it was really frustrating. This year, the Rose Bowl, had many of the Test matches, and they were all played behind closed doors. And to have that going on 500 metres from your house. Colin Wynn Very frustrating I'm sure. Ian Palmer And I had tickets for all of it. It really was frustrating. And I just couldn't get into watching cricket without the audience's, I don't know why I just couldn't buy into it. Colin Wynn Yeah, even when watching the football and things like that on the TV, the fake crowds, it's not the same, it's not the same. Ian Palmer No. Colin Wynn But hopefully we'll get back soon. Colin Wynn Well, finally, I like to end my podcast with a funny moving story. Do you have one or more to tell? Ian Palmer Well, you know, a lot of people say they've got lots of funny moving stories. But the truth is not too many of them are repeatable. One I was thinking about happened when I was about 17. And for anyone who knows the South Hams area of Devon, there's two villages, Newton Ferrers and Noss Mayo, separated by the River Yealm and a creek. And we were moving someone from very awkward access to Noss Mayo, and we had to access the new house in Noss Mayo by rowing boats. And I was helping to row the boat over, and balanced across the middle of the rowing boat we had a large sideboard, and I let it slip. Colin Wynn There's an insurance claim! Ian Palmer And it sank! That was, I just thought wood would float, and it just went down and down. Colin Wynn Did they ever get it back? Ian Palmer No. No. I mean, the customer was initially devastated. It was entirely my fault. You know, I was just too busy sort of looking at the scenery, a really picturesque place. Colin Wynn I tell you what, I've never heard of a removal being done by a rowing boat, that's a first. Ian Palmer Yeah a rowing boat. We had about two of them, possibly three, quite broad rowing boats, and it was the only way to get stuff over to this house. Colin Wynn That is some undertaking. Ian Palmer Yeah, I was, terrible. Colin Wynn So that memory has stuck with you since that day? Ian Palmer It has. And although I would go ballistic if any of our Junior Managers were to do this now, I raced my company car, a Lancia 2000. I don't know how I came down with a Lancia, but I raced it at a privateers day organised by ATS, the tyre specialists, and I raced it at Knockhill, which is just outside Dunfermline, and I came second. Colin Wynn It wasn't sponsored, it didn't have White & Co along the side did it? Ian Palmer No it didn'y. I absolutely wrecked Ian Palmer the tyres, and the manager of ATs felt, you know, quite sorry for me. And he put four brand new tyres on it on Monday. But then invoiced me the cost of the tyres at one a month, so it didn't stand out. Colin Wynn At that point, you want all Whites & Co Managers to switch off at that one. Ian Palmer Well, yeah, but I'm not giving out Lancia's, what, what ever possessed my boss to go along with that at the time, I don't know. Colin Wynn Very good. Colin Wynn Ian thank you very, very much for giving up your time this morning. I truly appreciate it and I'm sure our listeners will too, thank you. Ian Palmer You're very welcome, Colin. Good to speak to you. Colin Wynn You too. Transcribed by https://otter.ai