00:00.00
Dave
Hello everybody. My name is Dave Jackson and you're listening to tales from the backlog. This is a video games review podcast for each week I'm joined by a guest to bring a game out of the backlog, play it and discuss my guest today as a friend of the show host of the unlockables. And a licensed psychologist Eric guests. Welcome Eric.

00:24.83
Eric
Dave, thank you so much for the glowing introduction as always. I wouldn't say I'm a licensed psychologist but I majored in marketing when I was in college and that has to do with the psychology of selling things to people. So.

00:26.57
Dave
Yeah.

00:42.40
Eric
Maybe the next best thing if you are looking for a psychologist on the cheap.

00:43.23
Dave
We Yeah, we can say Discount Psychologist Yeah May or may not be licensed. Yeah well.

00:51.20
Eric
Yeah I'm a licensed priest online so I could probably get a psychology one on some website somewhere. Yeah so ah.

00:55.45
Dave
Oh there, you go? Yeah yeah, so one of those states will sell you a license online. Yeah probably Nevada or something like that. That's right, well good to have you back? um.

01:02.71
Eric
Ah, racking up the certifications.

01:08.45
Dave
For longtime listeners. Eric's been a guest on the show several times in the past. Remember we talked about metro dread. We talked about Undertail um, what else do we talk about but there's another one in there somewhere that I've oh final fantasy 16 and stranger of paradise that's right? yeah.

01:23.91
Eric
Yes, those were great episodes.

01:27.59
Dave
Yes, they were. We're getting to the point you've been on the show so many times that I can't remember off the top of my head. How many we've done and I have a feeling we've got another great one in store for everybody today. We're going to be talking about Gris which is a cinematic platformer developed by Nomada studio and published by devolver digital for contemporary platforms in 2018 and if this is your first time listening to the podcast. First of all, thank you for stopping by here's how spoilers work on every episode of the show. We're going to divide this into a non spoiler and then a spoiler discussion. So. If you want to know when the spoilers begin you can look down in the show notes there will be a timestamp for when the spoilers start for this episode and until that point we're not going to spoil the story beats specific things that happen in the story and some of those key realizations that you will come across as you play through Gris. So. With that being said, what is Gris? We have prepared some elevator pitches to tell you about it. I say this is a journey through sorrow in an example of not just games as art but games in art Eric what would you say?

02:39.58
Eric
I Had an emotional journey emphasized in every aspect through gameplay art direction and music and then a little throwback to just inside jokes in my Discord server. This is art. It is definitely art.

02:50.62
Dave
This is art is this art definitively. Yes, yeah, um I played this on switch I played it 2 times actually I beat it and it was quick. It's maybe 3 three and a half hours to beat it. So i. Decided that I would try it again to see if I picked up on some details that I missed the first time and I did in the early levels. So I just kept going through it 2 times. The switch makes it needlessly difficult to know how long you've played a game but let's say 6 hours for 2 playthroughs.

03:22.44
Eric
And I clocked in just about 3 hours on steam deck so that checks in about 6 hours

03:26.40
Dave
Right? Yep, so not a long game and it's something I played this for a little bit before bed each night for about a week on that first playthrough. It's a nice kind of wind down kind of wash yourself in the atmosphere and the art in the game. So. We always start out the episodes by talking about our histories with Gris what made us want to play it what put it on our radar and I know that when Eric when you and I we were trying to figure out a game for you to come back on the show this year I gave you a list you picked this off of the list. So it was on your radar somehow so tell everybody? How did you get to that point?

04:05.57
Eric
Yeah, so it releases. I think we have it as yeah 2018 and during that time I think I kind of completely missed that this one was coming out because during that time I was in the middle of my really gigantic huge monster hunter obsession that was like the only thing I was playing. I remember hearing about it again. Um, mutual friends of ours have another amazing podcast and members of our community. Ah the guys over at low 5 gaming I believe they either did an episode on it or they were talking and posting a bunch about it about how great it was and so I remember they were doing it at the same time that you asked me to pick a game off the list to play.

04:30.88
Dave
Yep.

04:43.30
Eric
And so I saw that and I was like oh those guys you know they were posting about this game a lot and there I Really trust their taste. They have impeccable taste for games and I was like yeah, let's let's just do this one. Let's see what it's all about and I'm really glad I got the opportunity to check it out. I'm really excited that I'm here with you to talk about it.

05:00.30
Dave
Yeah, hundred percent um they did cover Gris on their podcast at low 5 gaming and then another one of our mutual friend podcasts played along podcast also did an episode about Gris.

05:12.73
Eric
They did, yes.

05:14.49
Dave
Yeah, so this has been out there people have been talking about it and it's a game that I've just seen pop up over and over again through the years this is one of those games that I bought on switch like two years ago because it goes on sale for like three bucks every couple months and so I bought it and just.

05:34.49
Dave
You know, I didn't play it forever for no good reason. It's not too long to play. I had no doubt that it would be good. I just didn't play it so I threw it on my backlog resolutions list for 2024 that challenge that we're doing in my Discord server too. Yeah, I hit some of those games that have been sitting back there for too long but I really knew little about the story before I bought it. I just knew that it looked pretty. That's basically all I knew about it and that people like it I knew that too. So um.

06:09.69
Dave
To get into the quick opening thoughts here before we dive into the story I'm kind of glad that I knew little about the story content. I knew the main theme of the game before I started playing it but I'm glad that I didn't. Know about those details and those details that we're going to save for the spoiler section here today because this is as you said in the elevator pitch an emotional journey which utilizes every part of the game all integrated into this really wonderful artistic package like you said the art. Music the way the gameplay progresses everything works in tandem to create this really wonderful experience that's over in like we said about 3 hours and you get a really complete story out of it the way that it's told leaves a lot up to your own interpretation. And they give you the key details along the way so that you know the important stuff so I had a really good time with this um, not a good time in the sense that it was like joyous fun like ah you know like I'm playing I don't know trying to think of a fun game like I'm playing stranger of paradise or something like that.

07:22.41
Dave
It is not like that it is, um, a great appreciation for a work of art that they made here.

07:22.78
Eric
He yeah. Ah.

07:29.21
Eric
Yeah I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. Um, once I kind of bought it for $3 during the steam like spring and sale or something like that. So um, which even if you don't get it on sale I think it's like maybe $15 at most. Definitely definitely worth that price point just to experience it and.

07:41.36
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

07:48.31
Eric
I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I'm glad I didn't know as much as I did going into it because I can really only describe it as an experience and just to kind of piggyback off what you said. It is open ended enough ah to your interpretation to where. I really think that allows it to kind of connect with each person in its own individual way and the kind of emotions it takes you through as you as you play through the game and that's really something that we don't get enough of in video games today. It's absolutely incredible. Ah, 1 little tidbit I did want to throw in just because I didn't know where this would fit in the episode and because I'm a psychopath when I do research I went onto the ah nomada studios ah website and I was just kind of scrolling around looking at it and at the bottom there is a banner for the spanish ministry of culture.

08:36.73
Dave
Okay.

08:39.75
Eric
At the bottom of their website and I translated the little blurb that was at the bottom and ah it says aid for the promotion of the video game sector podcast and other forms of digital creation within the framework of the recovery transformation and resilience plan which is an Eu plan to like invest in like member states help their economies and stuff. And so this game was supported by the Spanish government by the division that looks after their culture and is responsible for spreading it throughout the world. So I just thought that was really cool and I couldn't ever imagine America doing something similar with anything that we produce like imagine.

09:17.13
Eric
Imagine the Biden administration just being like yeah we're going to culturally support like call of duty or something which would be on par for us. But I don't know. I thought that was really cool.

09:23.44
Dave
Right? right? there? Yeah, they're supporting some parts of video games but just keeping it on the download so we don't hear about it in the mainstream. Um.

09:33.39
Eric
Yeah, right? ah.

09:34.33
Dave
Now you're right, like I didn't know that Spain was doing this but I'm aware of similar things like in Canada and in Australia where the government is supporting these cultural products and I think that that's really cool again.

09:47.68
Eric
Um, yeah.

09:49.83
Dave
Hard to hard to imagine. Yeah, the Us government being like we're going to support your passion project, your artistic dream. They're not going to do that. But

09:58.26
Eric
Ah, yeah, it's something that we feel like you know we've been fighting for for now that we've been fighting for but we're sitting here saying yes like this thing is part of like culture of the things that we produce and I'm glad that to see that some places are are taking that seriously especially in a game like this which is. Absolutely incredible and I guess you don't hear about too many games that you know come out of Spain that garner wider appreciation at least not that I've heard of.

10:22.81
Dave
Right? I'm only aware of things like this and the company that makes the blasphemous games. They are also from Spain. That's about all I got so yeah so um we are going to take a little break and when we come back, we're going to kind of set up the story. A little bit.

10:27.40
Eric
Yes, yep, same here.

10:39.81
Dave
We're going to avoid a lot of the details that kind of make this game hit as hard as it can. We're going to tiptoe around those; we'll save those for the spoiler section. But for now let's enjoy some music. So in Gris you play as a young woman. Her name is also Gris and the game opens up with her standing on the hand of a giant stone statue and she is singing when suddenly she chokes and her voice catches in her throat. She grabs at her throat. She can't sing anymore. Hand crumbles away and she is sent tumbling far below. All the colors disappear from the world and you start the game in this completely white and black and gray area down at the bottom at the very beginning of the game. At the very beginning of the game Gris cannot really do anything at all. In fact, any button press that you make will have her fall down and you know it will take a long time to recover eventually you get your bearings. You're able to move a little bit more easily. And you progress through different areas in the game akin to different experiences on this emotional journey of the narrative and we're kind of tiptoeing around exactly what's going on but it suffice to say it is a painful experience that Gris is working through.

12:10.38
Dave
Ah, these are taken straight from the steam and like eshop descriptions of Gris. So I'm okay with you know, throwing these out there as things that are going on here but that is the type of story that we're working with here. So just. In broad strokes Eric did you think that this game does a good job of taking you along that journey and telling a story.

12:34.30
Eric
Yeah I Really think it does like he's like we so kind of said at the start at least I didn't really know what to expect when starting this game up and when that whole opening sequence kind of happens that you described. Ah it is kind of very like a lot of this game. You do have to like to interpret the symbolism but.

12:48.48
Dave
Um, yeah.

12:52.28
Eric
I Think that anybody that has kind of experienced what we're going to talk about in the ah the spoiler section will pretty much immediately kind of guess at what is going on here and it does it too with it like. Minimal communication like the only thing you're getting is like what you're seeing and hearing in the way that the game sounds and presents itself. It's not like there's no text boxes that jump up and are like this is what's happening This is the background of the story of the world It really just kind of leaves you to do. Go start just start walking and figure out what is going on and what is the situation with why she fell and what is the problem with her and figuring out all that stuff and it sets up a hook that I think is really compelling that you want to keep moving forward and figure Out. You know what is going on and discover. Everything that this world has to offer because yeah, like at the start. It's just a white void. It's of white nothingness that you're walking through and it's really really quite striking which we'll talk about more in the visuals.

13:52.11
Dave
Yeah, yeah, Absolutely um, that kind of minimalist storytelling. There is no dialogue in the entire game.. The only words that you see are achievements that pop up. Throughout the game I kind of wish they didn't do that. I wish they would have left it with absolutely no words. So I Guess if you're playing on a system that has achievements like steam or playstation or something, turn those off in my opinion because I do think they give up a little bit too much. Ah, that said, if you don't care if you want to be clued in on what's going on sooner rather than later leave those on but those are the only words.

14:32.11
Eric
Ah, yeah I was gonna say I wish I would have turned the achievements off and if you're like 1 of the platinum trophy grinder people. Ah you can do a second play through the game and just clean up the rest of the trophies like I said it's only 3 hours so it's not a big deal if you don't get them all like the first time through. So yeah, turn those off . It's a way better experience.

14:39.93
Dave
Yeah.

14:46.72
Dave
Yeah, agreed yeah, um, it is a ah, really subtle type of storytelling going on using things like color using things like environmental design. Using things like there are some living things in the game that you come across the way that they react to your character and things like that and a lot of these things I only picked up on on my second playthrough things that I just took for granted as like you know it's a it's a. Ah, work of art. You need background details but I didn't have contacts for them until I knew the whole story and so that second playthrough was really helpful for peak like I got the grand narrative down the first time. No problem. I understood that I understood the way they're working with color. All of those things. But there are a lot of very subtle details that you probably won't pick up on until you have the full narrative context and you go back and you know play again and this being such a short game I almost feel like. Just assume that it's a 5 to 6 hour game and play it twice.

15:57.54
Eric
Yeah I probably would have benefited from a second playthrough but I did the ah watch 100% run through on Youtube bull I did work. So unfortunately I may go back and and and check it out again because it is so short and just see if I can pick up on some of those subtle details. But yeah.

16:01.17
Dave
Right? yeah.

16:14.49
Eric
Once you know what's going on and what you ah like know what you're looking for because you understand the story and the structure of the game then going back. It makes a lot more sense literally everything that you go through makes a lot more sense where. It might take you like 30 to 35 minutes to fully understand what this game's about until you go through like the first part and maybe which we'll talk about in. It's second like unlocking her first like little ability that she gets and then you'll kind of realize all of that stuff. Ties in really well to like the symbolism of the game.

16:48.27
Dave
Right? Speaking of those abilities that are unlocked. This was a kind of thought that was bouncing around in my head and I think that so first of all when we say this is a narrative adventure game I assumed that it was going to be super super light on gameplay. And it's not really, there is more involved gameplay here than I personally expected. So I think that they set like confines within which the story had to work whereas if they had gone with a like. A lesser involved gameplay style. They could have done things like nonlinearity basically with the game structure and the way the game is set up. You pick where you walk, you pick where you jump, you pick where you explore and things like that. And for the first couple hours I thought that this game might be nonlinear because I just seemingly picked a random path and I made progress everywhere I went. It turns out that's not the case but it got me thinking about this type of nonlinear structure in an emotional journey type of narrative. Which would I think would have been really cool and so for a while I had to really chew on like did this game do itself a disservice by making it so gameplay centric or not centric but making the gameplay your means of progression and you have to do it in this certain order. So.

18:20.68
Dave
I Don't know if you thought about this or if this was something that you noticed when you were playing that the gameplay being as involved as it is kind of set borders that the story couldn't really go outside of that's part one I'll do part 2 after you get your. After you tell me what you thought.

18:40.63
Eric
Yeah I don't think I was expecting it to be like you said I was kind of getting ready for this kind of narrative right? along where maybe I would interact and move the character around like sometimes that's that's kind of what I was expecting. Certainly.

18:53.28
Dave
Yeah.

18:59.86
Eric
I would argue that this head definitely has a lot more platforming and puzzle elements than I really expected which I was I was fine with and I was actually really pleasantly surprised that it did have those elements in there but ah, it's interesting that they kind of put it in the linear framework that they did because. When we get to the spoiler section the the structure that the game is kind of influenced by is kind of has this ah linear structure to it even though that we know now that's not necessarily the case that that's how that works. Um, but I did some research again today and. I was reading about the developers and what type of game they wanted to play and just some interviews they did about Gris and they really wanted to focus on the accessibility aspect of it so they wanted it to have like a gameplay element to it but they also wanted to. Have it accessible enough to what they said they didn't want people to ever get stuck in like a fail state or have a game that had a fail state where you like head revert to a checkpoint or you died or something like that and that apparently caused them. You know a lot of a lot of challenges during the development process.

19:53.71
Dave
Ah, yeah.

20:04.94
Eric
Because they had this narrative that they wanted to tell in place but they also wanted to make it so that everybody could ultimately experience it and I would say that there were a couple times where I just kind of had to look at the screen for a couple seconds and be like okay what is going on here. What is the game trying to tell me to do? I was confused for a few seconds. But after just. Like playing it and just walking and jumping around for like 2 or 3 seconds I'd be like oh this is what I have to do so I think in that aspect they definitely succeeded in making something that's accessible for everybody. But um, yeah, even like you said I didn't expect the linear of it cause I got I had like a sheer moment of panic real quick. Quick when you get to like the one area that has like the apparent four ways you can go like 4 different ways and I was like oh do I have to like pick which way I go and like the first way I picked was just the way I went I was like okay then maybe I can do these in any order, but it really structures itself in a way that ah it pretty much.

20:45.83
Dave
Yeah.

21:00.33
Dave
Yeah, agreed I'm glad you mentioned there are no fail states. You're right? You can't die. There's no fall damage. There is no failure. There's no combat, nothing like that. It is a smooth experience in that way and even though the platforming is.

21:00.91
Eric
Forces you to progress on the path that wants you to.

21:18.17
Dave
More involved than I expected I expected something like inside or something like that where you literally just run and jump and that's not this game. There's stuff that you do to solve puzzles to platform things like that.

21:22.35
Eric
Yeah.

21:33.47
Dave
It's never too involved though. So like that, focus on accessibility and making sure that you know somebody who as long as they knew how to use a controller could pick this game up and get through it. I'm pretty confident in that. So all that be to say that. I think that they deliberately set the gameplay up this way and like kind of made a box that this narrative structure had to fit inside of because they designed the gameplay the way they did but the fact that it is linear ended up. Not. Really affecting the journey as the um like the narrative journey as much as I thought it could because there are a million little touches they make that mix it up and provide some sort of unpredictability to the journey despite the fact that when you look at it like this. The main plot beats like if you were to storyboard it. Yeah, it's a linear journey. But there's a lot of things in between those things or inside of each of those steps along the path that mix it up and I think it ultimately is like really well considered in that way and. Really helps to make it true to life in a way that it would not have felt if they didn't make the effort to put those little things in along the way to to mix it up.

23:00.89
Eric
Yeah, there's really like these little storytelling boxes inside the kind of Grand story in each area that you go to whether it's like different themes or ah, the visuals that we talk about are meeting like little critters or just kind of stuff like that. Um.

23:04.43
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

23:14.66
Eric
Yeah, and and like I said I was not disappointed when I found out that that was the case because again I was I was kind of expected to be taken on a ride So when I kind of figured out This is what it was about I was like okay and as ah, a longtime avid lover of of platformers I was like well this is just ah, a plus for me I get to. Experience kind of this amazing indie emotional journey that I'm going on and I could have some of my one of my favorite game types mixed in so and and ah in terms of like the gameplay and stuff it. It just feels. It feels pretty good to play as well.

23:45.34
Dave
Yeah, yeah, it's like um I think that I actually think that the developers here said that they were influenced by Journey and you can see that in the gameplay. It does not feel any more difficult than Journey is to complete.

24:02.32
Eric
I Think they also said they took a little bit of inspiration from Ori as well which I could see as well.

24:03.51
Dave
So ah yeah I can see that for sure in one of the gameplay mechanics that you pick up along the way for sure. So I told everyone I thought that this was you know once I figured it out like.

24:13.36
Eric
Um, yep.

24:20.10
Dave
Yes, the grand thing is a linear path but within that there's a bunch of bumps and you know rises and falls along the way once I figured that out and then on that replay when I started to pick up some of those really fine details that you wouldn't mention you wouldn't notice the first time. You don't know what you're looking for or if you know like you said, go back and watch a playthrough on Youtube or read about it or whatever you want to do. I ended up coming away really impressed with how much attention to detail went into this journey here and. I think that's what helps this game be as emotionally resonant as it can be um I like this this game didn't move me to tears I didn't connect with it in that way. But I did see what's going on here and I respect what is happening. And I think that for a lot of people. This is a game that will genuinely move them along the way.

25:21.16
Eric
I'm in the same boat. I didn't cry but I felt a certain type of way after I was done. I was just kind of like huh. Okay I see what's going on here and I and there ah most that night I finished it I did kind of ah spiral down and reflect on some life choices that I made and.

25:25.23
Dave
Yeah.

25:38.93
Eric
And some stuff that that I went through earlier in my life and I was like yeah all right I I get it I get what this game is trying to tell me so um, if yeah, if it doesn't out and out make you cry which I saw plenty of Youtube comments people were like this like crush me and I was I was crying by the end of it. It is.

25:53.70
Dave
Yeah.

25:56.71
Eric
That type of game especially if it's something you've gone through like more recently this is definitely one that can make you feel.

26:02.10
Dave
Yeah, hundred percent it is. I think it's akin to something like celeste where it is specifically about a type of emotional journey. But it's not about love.

26:14.93
Dave
This one person's hyper specific journey to the point where someone who didn't go through that exact same thing would never connect with it. I think that there are a lot of life experiences that people have that would help them connect. On that level with this game the same way that Celeste has had that impact on a lot of people. Yeah, so ah, let's put a pin in the story for a while. We'll pick it back up in the spoiler section. It is time after another music break.

26:33.70
Eric
Oh.

26:42.88
Dave
To talk about aesthetics and the wonderful visuals and music in Gris. So the most striking thing about Gris. The thing that got me to buy it in the first place is the way that it looks and it has this wonderful artistic style to it. This watercolor style that like we said at the beginning of the game starts out as this white void with ah you know some black outlines of rocks and you know dead trees and stuff like that and then. As you go color is introduced and the way that they use color is used for storytelling and emotion in a way for you to identify with what's going on in the story in addition to just making this game really really pretty.

27:33.32
Eric
Yeah I agree I think the first thing I noticed was like we talked about at the beginning when you first fall down and take control of the character. You're just you're in a stark white background and it really is. Visually stunning. It's like you're looking at ah like a watercolor painting it really reminded me of this is not a 1 to 1 comparison, but it reminded me of another game that I played a while ago and I really liked to call the child of light from ah Ubisoft and they do the same kind of like watercolor painting style of visuals to kind of invoke this like.

27:57.88
Dave
Or yeah.

28:08.42
Eric
Dreamlike world that you're in and they do something similar with the music but that is very much like a more traditional rpg style of game and made by triple A developers but similar kind of a visual thing in practice and then as you go along? Um, which we will talk about later. You get it? ah. As you reach certain stages more color gets introduced into the world and then the color kind of blends together to create this? It's it's one of the most beautiful games that I've ever seen and it's incredible. How they got all those visuals to do like again. This game doesn't tell you. There's no dialogue in this game doesn't tell you anything there are like maybe 4 button prompts throughout the entire game that tell you when you get like a new ability like what to do and that's like all the game communicates with you and the rest is left up to your interpretation of the way it looks the way it sounds and one of the really like cool things.

28:49.96
Dave
Yeah.

29:03.33
Eric
Ah, you already have it marked down here on the note so I'll wait till we get to that to mention it I'm getting ahead of myself. Ah.

29:05.60
Dave
I Don't know, go go ahead just just retake and and say it.

29:12.87
Eric
Ah, the other thing I was going to say too is I Really love the way they use the camera in this game as well because it starts off like really really zoomed in like super close to you so you can see Grisson a lot of details on her but throughout the entire.

29:16.50
Dave
Um, yeah.

29:29.92
Eric
Adventure that you're honored the entire journey that you're on really feels like it shifts to different perspectives like so often like it. Zoom's way out and sometimes it'll be that kind of like halfway zoomed in. Sometimes it'll be zoomed all the way in. Sometimes it'll be zoomed so far out that I couldn't even tell where my character was when I was traversing the. Stage I like lost sight of her for a moment and it just really created this sense of scale that was really impressive but it also seemed to like Zoom way in when moments were at their most tender and I was just like this is incredible like most of the times you don't think of using a camera in this way. It's just something you need to view. What's going on in your environment, but the way it's used here is so incredible.

30:10.86
Dave
Yeah, the color, the camera, the architecture. The places that you're in the way that they're visually designed all of those things are used for a storytelling purpose um depending on what the focus of that part should be and. The way that all of these things like I said at the beginning, the way that all of these visual aspects the music which we'll talk about in a second the way your gameplay abilities. The things that you can actually see and interact with the way they are all 100 % tied in with the. Progression of the character and her story is really wonderful. It is all just really neatly tied together. It's really good. The music is composed by a berlinist and it is, I would say, just.

31:04.92
Dave
Wonderfully built to accompany the journey as well. It's not a soundtrack that I like picked out individual songs and being like I'm going to go find that song on Youtube later like this is built to mirror. What's going on in the story and again.

31:16.74
Eric
Um.

31:22.46
Dave
Since there are no words and since the game is so reliant on other methods of storytelling. The music is doing a lot of lifting here too and I think it's really excellent.

31:34.30
Eric
Yeah I'm in the same boat as you. I was just thinking I wouldn't go and find a specific song from the soundtrack. But I might if I was trying to just get in a head space to like do some work or like zone out for a little bit I might just throw on like the Gris playlists and like let it go all the way through. Ah you know like lofi girl studying or whatever something like that.

31:41.78
Dave
Easy.

31:48.69
Dave
Right.

31:51.83
Eric
Ah, but it really does it really kind of sets the mood for the entire journey because I did play a small portion of this I was playing in bed one night my wife had already gone to sleep and I had the volume way down and I was just like oh it's like not, it's not really hit in the way it was the the night before and so I went back on the couch I turned up the volume and I was like. Yeah, the music is is a really really integral part of this game and it's really cool to see the way that the music and the visuals in the gameplay all kind of complement each other to create this package because that's what it's using to tell you the story again I don't mean keep hammering it but it doesn't. It doesn't tell you straight up what's happening. You have to use your best judgment to interpret just the way it makes you feel based on what you're hearing, what you're seeing and what you're doing. So yeah, music is music is incredible.

32:35.60
Dave
Yeah, exactly. Yeah 1 thing I noted about the music is that it is often somber or intense as we said this is a. Ah, journey through a painful period in Gris's life so the music reflects that it's somber but there's often like you know, hopeful touches to the songs even a lot of the sadder songs. Um, it doesn't often sway too far in one direction like a happy sad continuum. There's a lot of you know, sad sounding music and there's a lot of really hopeful happy sounding music during certain portions of the game too. So I thought that was nice and there is a lot of growth and dynamics in these songs too. Especially when you're playing. Ah, this is a soundtrack that will be really quiet when you first enter an area. Sometimes you know maybe you'll just have a few piano keys twinkling and then when you hit one of those big moments. The soundtrack has you know slowly over the course of what you've been doing swelling up to this grand moment. The soundtrack accompanies that really well and then when the moment's over and you need time to or you need I guess like mental space to process. What's been going on the soundtrack pulls back like really heavily and it's back to just that piano so you're left with your thoughts in a lot of those cases and so this is like.

34:08.46
Dave
I had never heard of a berlinist before this but I actually don't know about them. I don't know if it's 1 person or group or anything like that. But they knock this out of the park.

34:20.95
Eric
Yeah, and it really takes a lot of cues from the environment as Well. It ties into kind of what's going on in the environment like I remember and this might be ah, a gameplay thing too early on when you start going through like a right area and like wind picks up the music kind of like picks up when the wind picks up and. It's just very subtle but it's also very cool when you notice it.

34:40.60
Dave
Yeah, absolutely berlinist according to their website is a band and a producer so that is not super helpful. There's pictures of multiple people on the images here. So I'm going to go ahead and assume it's more than one person involved here.

34:59.10
Eric
Well, they did a great job.

35:00.20
Dave
So ah, yeah, absolutely they did great. 1 other thing to note I mentioned at the beginning in that first scene Gris is singing her voice catches in her throat she chokes and can no longer sing anymore. Vocals play a role in the again we're we're we're hammering it again. It plays a role in the storytelling and the journey that Gris goes on when vocals are present that is a storytelling device and it's ah it's really well done.

35:32.91
Dave
So I think that we have hit a lot of what we can and should talk about in the non-spoiler section where he kind of wrapped up gameplay and rolled it in with the story which is fitting for the way that this game works and how it progresses. So I think that this is as good a time as any to go ahead and jump into our final thoughts and recommendations housekeeping stuff like that and then we'll get into that spoiler section because I this is a game where I I feel like we've said a lot but I don't want to say more right now. So Eric who. Would you recommend play Gris and if you have any other wrap up thoughts go ahead and give those now.

36:18.27
Eric
If you really like having an emotional connection to the games that you're playing I would definitely check this out and I know that's not for everybody. I know some people like to escape when they play games or compete or all that kind of stuff. Um.

36:19.11
Dave
But I don't.

36:33.66
Eric
You know my show is very much about getting at the emotional core of the games that we play and that's the type of person I would recommend playing this and it was a perfect game for everything that I believe that video games should be like, even if you're like more again. Even if you're morbidly curious it goes on sale enough to where you could probably say it for like $3 and it's it's. Certainly worth 3 hours of your time and especially if you're in the camp of you know, making the case that videogames are art which we should actually actually be considered art. This is the perfect example of a game that I would show somebody and be like look at this. This is art.

37:08.76
Dave
Yeah, 100% You know we talk about this on a lot of episodes of the show. But you know the ways that games can be used as an art , not just as a game that's telling a story with themes and stuff like that. But the way that Gris in particular uses all aspects of its design, the visuals, the music, the gameplay, the light storytelling that you get, how all of those combined to tell the story when you took 1 of those aspects Out. Would have a harder time telling that story like you're missing one of the pillars and you know it'd be. Ah, it'd be a wobbly story in the chair metaphor that I'm constructing here. So I think that this is a good game to demonstrate as games as art And. Games are like a holistic artistic product because I mean you can make the argument and I do make the argument that most of the games that I play and cover on this podcast are art. I'm trying to think of one that I wouldn't like.

38:22.99
Dave
Consider it that way. It will be just a waste of time to try and think of it right now but a stranger's paradise is art. Yeah, that is art the the character writing for Jack is art hundred percent we'll take it to your discord server for the final say after this. But yeah.

38:28.36
Eric
Stranger of paradise ah hundred percent art it is

38:40.37
Eric
Ah, for sure they'll let them vote on it. Ah.

38:42.42
Dave
Um I agree with you that this is a representative game if anyone out there is skeptical about games as art which I feel like you know you and I and the guests that I have on this podcast and the people that are probably listening to this podcast like. Anyone who listens a couple times and comes back to the show is probably on board with us here that that debate is kind of dead in our opinion definitely dead but you do want shining examples and this is a great one and. You need no more proof than the discussion that we have lined up in the spoiler section here. So I Recommend this game to basically everybody um there you know if you don't want to play a sad game then you know don't play this. It. It is definitely a sad game at times. But

39:35.30
Dave
I Think that a lot of people listening to the show have that in them. This is if you are a follower of the show. This is one in a long string of sad games that I've had on the podcast just by Coincidence. So you're here. You know what's up. Go ahead and play Gris. It's Cheap. It's available everywhere. Give it a shot before we get into it. Did you have something? Okay.

40:01.82
Eric
Ah, no I don't think so oh I was going to say ah Nomada is actually coming out with their second game. Hopefully soon called Nava, have you seen the trailer for it and do you think you'll want to play that too.

40:07.75
Dave
Yeah, that's right nava Yeah I did watch the trailer recently. It looks like another potentially very sad game and emotional game. Yeah so I'll definitely play it. Um I.

40:20.48
Eric
Um, I was devastated.

40:24.40
Dave
It was not super on my radar before I played Gris but now that I know that this is who we're dealing with as creatives I am in.

40:30.75
Eric
I am the same thing I'm a hundred percent and I just wanted to say that so the people knew they had another game coming out.

40:36.88
Dave
Right? Oh yeah for sure and um, let's see.

40:49.50
Dave
It doesn't have a release date as of right now as the time recording but they say 2024 so by the time people hear this it should be coming relatively soon. Fingers crossed but I'm excited so before we get into spoilers. We always do a little bit of housekeeping starting with.

41:02.30
Eric
Yes.

41:08.82
Dave
Guests talk about the things that they make so Eric tells people about the unlockables and all the wonderful stuff. You've got going on over there.

41:17.58
Eric
Yeah, so I host the unlockables which I bill as the story of video games that people who play them and the memories made along the way and Gris is very much a game that fits into my whole mantra about what I make that show about ah currently I'm on an insane quest to play and chronicle. All of the kingdom heart schemes which have been going on for probably 2 years now by the time this episode comes out. We're approaching the end so that's very very exciting and then I'm kind of just releasing stuff when I can know a new kid in the mix. My son was just born a couple months ago so I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, being a good dad and having time to work on my passion project which is the unlockable so I kind of put stuff out when I put stuff out and if you want to check out the podcast or any of that stuff. You can go to linktr.ee/unlockablespodcast. That's where all my socials are. Ah, you can find me in Dave's discord I have my own Discord you can join there where we debate if things are art and kind of like a tongue in cheek humorous type of thing some interesting stuff gets posted in that channel and we have to decide if it's art or not spoiler alert most of it is and ah, that's a good time and I recently jump.

42:25.63
Dave
Yep.

42:30.67
Eric
Ah, dip my feet into the Youtube game as well. I put out my first Youtube video on the legend of zelda ocarina of time my first ever playthrough through that so that was an exciting Really awesome experience to to experiment with a new medium and that's you can go to youtube.com ford slash the unlockables or unlockables or something like that. Remember what? the ah url is but you can just see my black and white joystick kind of logo that I use as my branding there and check that out as well.

42:53.85
Dave
Right? Yeah, good stuff on Youtube and on the podcast, the kingdom hearts journey when I eventually do take the plunge into kingdom hearts I'm so looking forward to going along that journey with you in my ears along the way and then. The other content on the unlockables. Um I really enjoy your perspective on the other things that you decide to make things about. It's a valuable voice in that you know what can turn out to be an echo chamber in either direction.

43:24.00
Eric
Um.

43:29.83
Dave
A lot of times I feel like you're bringing a nice perspective kind of removed from a lot of discourse in a lot of cases. Even if you're commenting on things that are discourseified. So I value what you're putting out there and I want everybody else to go check it out.

43:46.98
Eric
Um, Dave has also been on the show multiple times. I got to interview him in 1 of my earliest ever episodes and he was on one of my Christmas episodes a couple years ago and I'm trying to figure out a way to reincorporate having people on my show if time allows it this year. So.

43:58.60
Dave
Right.

44:02.19
Eric
Ah, Dave will definitely be getting a call for me once I figure out what that looks like for sure. I hope I haven't forgotten to feed you this.

44:05.75
Dave
That's right? Yep I'm just down in the crawl space come find me when you need me. Yeah, it's all right I make do so yeah, everyone you can look down in the show notes for links to the podcast for the unlockables and also the Youtube channel. And you can see what's been going on in the few months since we recorded this that Eric doesn't even know that he's doing yet. It's ah it's a magical prospect to look forward to.

44:32.22
Eric
If I'm done with Kingdom Hearts I might be on a hiatus because my brain will probably hurt. I don't know we'll see ah.

44:38.40
Dave
That's right, Yeah, you're just yeah, just laying outside in the grass staring directly into the sun. Yeah yep, Okay so I again check out the unlockables. It's worth your time and for this podcast the same.

44:44.60
Eric
Absorbing much needed Vitamin d.

44:53.24
Dave
Things that are helpful to support as always. You can leave a rating and review if you enjoy the show on apple podcast Spotify or podcast addict that helps people find the show. So if people are searching for podcasts about Gris. They might find this one and that's what we want so that's really helpful. You can also join the discord server to join in the discussion about Gris about other games on this podcast. Tell us what you're playing, talk to us about your pets, especially show us pictures of your pets. Talk to us about what you're cooking, things like that. We have a wonderful community there.

45:28.66
Dave
You can listen to my other show. It's called a top three podcast. It is a comedy show. We do top 3 lists, we draft weird topics and last but not least if you want to support the show monetarily you can do that at patreon.com/real Dave Jackson for $2 a month you can vote in what games I do on the show. And as the tears go up. So do the treats increase. So with all that being said, we are gonna take a music break when we come back. It is full spoiler time for Gris.

47:02.14
Dave
We're back in. It is full spoiler time for Gris and we are not going to be shy about like late game spoilers or late game revelations right? at the beginning of this section. So again reiterate. If you don't want to be spoiled for Gris. Please leave, go play the game and come back in 3 hours. We'll be here waiting for you. We'll keep the seat warm so Gris is a journey and we avoided saying the exact words through the stages of grief or the. Commonly accepted stages of grief especially in our cultural perspective here. So in Gris you do go through the order of the stages of denial , anger , bargaining , depression and acceptance. Those are the names of the achievements which is why I recommended turning the achievements off. Ah, because I don't know I would have liked to have done more puzzling out. What is this color representing instead of having something pop up that says acceptance.

48:09.12
Eric
Ah, accept the truth. Ah.

48:11.12
Dave
Ah, oh my god not again. not again so um the first stage begins with Gris singing in that statue until again, she chokes and loses her voice.

48:14.10
Eric
Ah, ah, ah.

48:25.23
Dave
And she does not regain her voice until a key point later on in the story. So first and foremost do you think that there is a symbolic meaning for the voice or use for the voice.

48:41.47
Eric
I I think so um, this everything this game has symbolic meaning because it all works together. Great to talk about these 5 stages of grief in the way you move through them. I kind of took it to feel like her. Her voice was kind of her happiness because when she was singing.

48:44.36
Dave
Yeah.

48:58.65
Eric
Ah, the game felt a lot more lighthearted. Everything kind of felt more colorful. The things that you experience and then when she chokes up and loses her voice and then kind of starts to like fall down.. That's when I kind of immediately started in the back of my head. It's like oh I think I kind of. Understand what this game is starting to tell me. So Yeah I think I think her voice is her happiness. It's her. It's her way of expressing herself and when we talk about the stages of Grief. We'll see like when you go through that grief you do kind of feel like you lose that happiness. You lose that sense of self.

49:16.21
Dave
Yeah.

49:35.35
Eric
As you experience something that is very traumatic.

49:38.61
Dave
The sense of self is what I thought too in those exact words So I'm glad you brought those up. Um, whether it's happiness or like a feeling of being in control of your life or something like that like I do think that the voice is representative of her sense of. Feeling like herself whereas many of these stages or many things that happen within the stages in the game that are gone and then when you get that back. The game's not over yet the story in the journey is not finished. There's a. Portion of the game where you do have the voice. It's a gameplay mechanic and the symbolic value of regaining that I think is really important so we'll hit that when we get to that particular section. But since they do make it a point to make the voice such a big part of the journey you go on losing it and then regaining it.

50:21.75
Eric
Um, yeah.

50:33.25
Dave
And then something else that happens later I do think has obvious symbolic importance for that. So before we get into the breakdown of the stages that you go through? Um, I Want to revisit that kind of conversation here. About the linearity but those small touches and things they do along the way here. So we said already this is a linear progression through grief then Anger then bargaining then depression then acceptance and then the end of the game. But so had it just been that I think it would have rang hollow if you wanted people to resonate emotionally with this journey through grief because as you said during the non spoiler part and I think as is somewhat common knowledge that 5 Stage structure is a helpful way of visualizing it. But it's not like you go through those. This is my grief period and then when I move into the anger or this is my denial period and then when I move into the Anger stage I am no longer in denial 0% denial over here then when I move into bargaining. 0% anger That's not how these things work. This is really messy and the thing that I think saved this and then ended up elevating it above what I thought it could be is that in all of these stages.. There are so many bumps in the road.. There are so many.

52:08.60
Dave
Ah times when you think you're making progress but you've literally in the game fall back down there is use of color to denote that this thing from several stages ago is still here and then maybe that color dominates a scene the way that it shows this really rocky and uneven Journey. Ah, this messy interwoven ah like journey of progression I Guess I'll say I think is really really excellent here.

52:37.61
Eric
I agree with you 100% and I'm really glad we did touch on that ah closer to the the top of that episode because yeah I think this is useful for like you said, kind of describing and because humans we don't do well with like abstract concepts when we're. Upset because that doesn't help us make sense of the world and we just have a natural inclination to make sense of the World. So the stages of Grief Framework helps us to kind of understand all and process all of the feelings that we're feeling when something ah makes us experience grief or something traumatic.

52:59.60
Dave
Yeah.

53:15.76
Eric
Happens to us. But I agree with you if if this would have just been a game where it was like Okay, now you're in the red zone and that's that's anger and now you're in the green zone and that's you know if it just moved you from like zone to zone I think it definitely would have been a little too on the head. And even when you do some research about the stages of grief A lot of the articles are like this is common knowledge that people know about this but a lot of people like the scientific and psychological Communities. Don't preach this as fact because humans are more complex than that and. Like you said the thing that really does represent that in this game is how some of the colors from the previous Stages. You've already visited um are kind of present in the color of the stage where you currently are and like you said you're you're constantly trying to go through these different stages and fight your way back up because you do fall down into deep. Chasms a lot. Ah but a lot of the times when you think you've fought your way back up you fall back down and that's that's very much how it works as a person that's gone through trauma and dealt with grief for a vast majority of my twenties when I struggled in my life. You have some days where maybe you're in denial and then maybe you're bargaining and then maybe you feel depressed and then some days. Maybe you do accept it. But even though you've accepted. It doesn't mean that later days you can't slide back into some of those other stages. So. It's not like a canal or like a locking system where it's like I've escaped from denial now I'll just be angry and.

54:42.45
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

54:46.55
Eric
That type of thing and ah, you're 100% right like if that was the structure. This game took I I think it would have been a big miss but it blends the different shades of this journey together. So well that it may make it a home run.

54:58.90
Dave
Yeah, if you just looked at a very surface level view like maybe if you let's say just play through the game and we're not paying close attention to those details or if you skim through a let's Play. Or maybe if you just played the game and just kind of focused on the game play side of things and didn't pay a lot of attention to the environment. Um, it might seem like it is more simplistic of a journey than it actually is. But

55:34.21
Dave
That's why I'm glad I did that second playthrough. I'm glad you watched a second playthrough to pick up on those things because you might go through it and be like oh yes, we're in the red zone this means anger that's neat. But then you notice like this thing happens in this specific portion of the red zone. And that is something that is not just anger. There is other storytelling going on here in later stages if you're not paying attention to the colors. You might not notice. We might notice the presence of red later but you might not like to wait. Why is red still here? I thought we were past the anger stage. But of course that's not how it works like the simplistic 5 step journey through grief I think is there. It's helpful for people to like to understand a journey they're going on because we have a need to understand everything about it and psychology is like. Ah, subject where that need to understand clashes really harshly with how fucking complex. The human brain is so I think that and we'll talk about some of those specific details as we run through like the stages that the game goes through but I think that the attention to detail. And the commitment to yes this is a linear progression through the denial zone and then the anger zone I'm doing air quotes right now. But within those there's so many things that show you that there's emotional intelligence behind the design of this game.

57:06.43
Dave
The gameplay, the colors, the storytelling all of it so I wanted to kind of bring that back and kind of set that up before we dive into each individual section. The other thing is as you're playing through the game.

57:15.41
Eric
Yeah.

57:21.72
Dave
You are collecting these stars and at certain points you go up to a place. The stars will help you build bridges or unlock New abilities. It is the kind of puzzle aspect. You do a little mini puzzle. You get a star ah and then at certain points you take them back and the stars leave you and they go up into the sky. And I was always wondering throughout the game like what is the constellation going to be what are we building here and it turns out that what you're building is a bridge that will lead you back up to the place that you fell down from which I thought was a cool realization and there's a great payoff for that later on.

58:00.24
Eric
Yeah I always kind of took the stars to to kind of be symbolic in the way that when you're going through this journey. It can feel very kind of dark and there's not any way out of it and there's nothing that ends the suffering suit that no will end the suffering anytime soon but along the way you find these little.

58:19.45
Eric
Motes of light you find little things to to hang onto right? Whether it's like ah your friends or your family and seeing or hanging out with them or um, you know good things that happen in your life or just kind of things that you experience along the way. Ah you collect those and carry them with you and eventually those kinds of moments. Also, Help in the healing process and I found that very symbolic when you ultimately do like make that constellation bridge going up I was like oh that's kind of it makes sense that that's kind of just how I interpreted it.

58:45.86
Dave
Yeah, agreed. So let's ah, let's get into these stages that you go through so the first section is the denial section and that is that colorless part at the very beginning of the game. Thankfully they don't give you an achievement popup. Right? This is like literally 20 seconds into the game. You're down here that it would be like denial. You're like okay but they don't luckily they hold back on that one. Um, and I think that the way that they represent denial in this part is really excellent. Once you realize that this is that.

59:25.22
Dave
Immediate Raw emotion right? after the thing that happens that is causing the grief in this case.

59:36.92
Eric
Yeah, you're It's when she first falls down and she kind of stumbles to get up and ah, you're not really sure what to do you kind of press some buttons here there something to note here too that when you there is a button that when you unlock the ability later on that allows you to to sing. Um. If you press that button she will kind of withdraw and almost kind of clasp at her throat a little bit. Um, as kind of symbolic of you know she's lost her sense of self. But yeah, when you fall into this white void. This is really kind of there's no really under way to describe. This is true.

59:59.80
Dave
Yeah.

01:00:13.18
Eric
Ah, beautiful way to describe that the first moments after this traumatic thing happens to you if it's someone you've lost or something else. Um, you really can't, you can't process it right? You can't, your mind kind of denies it as a defense mechanism and just kind of shuts everything else out and it feels like you're kind of like. In a void or a fuzz or you really can't focus on anything else and as you start to like progress through the the white void things kind of intermittently in sparsely start to start to show up and that's kind of like you progressing through that stage and being and and starting to become aware of like the things around you. Slowly but surely again as you can start to kind of process what it is you just felt.

01:00:53.79
Dave
Yeah, yeah, like that feeling you get and it doesn't necessarily have to be like a loss but that feeling you get when you get really bad news. Whatever that could mean to you that feeling when the walls close in around you the camera in this section is.

01:01:05.60
Eric
Right.

01:01:12.63
Dave
The most zoomed in it could possibly be on her just kind of reflecting how in that moment nothing exists outside of like your immediate surroundings. Basically nothing might exist outside of your own head in some of those cases. It makes me think. Just anyone who's going through this but also responsible for the well-being of other people during that moment and just like how fucking difficult that must be to be in that situation because I think this is a good representation here. How like again, the camera is zoomed way in the. All consuming thought of what is going on can't have happened stuff like that. Um, the fact that you can walk slowly during this section. But if you press a button. She'll fall down just unable to really do anything and then another little touch.

01:02:09.47
Dave
Since we know that this is a loss that happened now we know that after you finish the game um the statue which you find out eventually is a statue representing her mother and that's who she lost is her mother. Um, it's in a secret ending. It is canon. Ah, so that statue is buried under the sand so kind of that feeling that this person is gone buried I mean maybe literally buried um gone forever. Basically and I think that is again. The. Tenth time. We're gonna say it and we're gonna say it 10 more times. Gameplay visuals music and then like you know this environmental design visuals in the sense that it's this black and white void all working together here to to show the emotional state of Gris. So this is good stuff and then eventually you kind of get through that opening section. You are able to run. You're able to jump so it's you're still within this you know phase but able to go through the motions go through daily life or something like that. So. This is a great opening scene for this. The next one you go into is the red stage. So as you progress you go through the levels you collect the stars and then Gris always comes back to the statue.

01:03:31.49
Eric
Agreed.

01:03:44.66
Dave
Always goes into the hand of the statue and then there is an emotional outpouring and in that outpouring comes a new color into the world. So from this white and black and gray void I don't think we said it yet. But for anyone who made it this far and doesn't know Gris is the spanish word for gray. So.

01:04:03.26
Eric
Oh yeah.

01:04:04.48
Dave
That is how we know the pronunciation of the title. Um red is introduced into the fold and they're starting you out with a really easy you know color psychology one here at the beginning red is Anger. So If you're not Aware. We're going through the stages of grief here. The second stage is Anger. We have a red level.

01:04:28.90
Eric
Yeah, because people when you're mad you see red. So I mean that's that's far the one that's most on the nose for sure.

01:04:36.60
Dave
Yeah, most on the nose. Um, I like how this one starts with a long fall. Um, it is a journey kind of like surfing down this hill. Type thing: remember the sand sand surfing part and journey similar to that. But then as you go most of these levels all start with these long dissents and so you are you know metaphorically working your way up. Through these things and eventually the goal is to get that constellation bridge built so you can move up and out of this journey I suppose. Um, I really like what the gameplay in this section represents. As far as the progression through an angry time. So this level for those who didn't play is this really alien red level. It's got these like pyramids and floating rocks and the biggest thing is it has these really violent sandstorms that come. And if you're caught out in the sandstorm will pick you up and blow you back backwards and kind of stop your progress through the level. So the early part of the level is timing jumping and getting to safe places before the sandstorm comes but eventually your first gameplay ability is to use.

01:06:03.47
Dave
Her dress to create you turns into a block basically but you steel yourself you get really heavy now the sandstorm can't move you and you can actually move forward during the sandstorm which I thought was a nice representation of I don't know kind of hunkering down. Hardening up may push out emotions not allowing anything to get close to you during let's say turbulent things that are going on.

01:06:35.49
Eric
Yeah, and again, it's very easy visually to understand anger, often referred to as a stormy type of emotion, right? Ah yeah I Really like this part because yeah, you're using her new ability to. Ah, basically like you said steel steel yourself against the rage of the storms your inner self. Um, there is another thing that I kind of noticed too. Ah, if you have this block ability if you jump up and then hit it. You're able to smash through the floors of areas where the floor is broken.

01:07:04.51
Dave
Yeah.

01:07:07.53
Eric
And you're able to also like break pots and some things that are destructible in the environment. Um, so that too can kind of be like I took that as ah, you know that's kind of anger lashing out and yes, maybe you're hardening yourself. But maybe your anger is also destructive to the environment around you.

01:07:24.70
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:07:26.18
Eric
Ah, type of thing as well because it's really one of the only abilities that allows you to kind of destroy the environment that you get in the entire game so it makes sense that that type of thing would be found in a stage that's symbolized by anger.

01:07:32.30
Dave
Ah, me.

01:07:36.37
Dave
Yeah, a hundred percent like there's environmental anger with the sandstorms and if you're in an angry state like think about if you just had a really bad day and you're pissed off. You kind of feel like the world is out to get you too like everyone's you know gunning after you, everyone's trying to mess with you. It's not probably the case but you know someone on someone driving like cuts you off or whatever and you're like why would you do that to me like stuff like that the world's out to get you. So like that's those sandstorms.

01:08:08.79
Eric
Um, right.

01:08:12.40
Dave
Ah, you're exactly right? like this ability is a violent ability. You're smashing stuff. Um, and this can be seen as maybe Gris is lashing out at people around her.. There's a part in this level where you have to smash a. Like a hermit crab type things shell and then it runs away from you and goes and quickly finds another shell and it does not want to be anywhere near you. So Maybe a little symbolism that people around you might be afraid to some degree. They don't want to be around her during this time. There's also a part where you smash down through the floor and there's the mirror part where it's like the dark world and the light world below it and yeah, it's Fantastic. Definitely a screenshot part in the game.

01:08:57.53
Eric
Oh yeah, visually stunning this part.

01:09:05.15
Dave
Ah, the only way to progress. There is to repeatedly smash the ground kind of I don't know a tantrum of sorts and that's what releases what ends up being like the primary antagonist in the game is that outburst so these are all. Like these are not all things that I found out on my own. This is the benefit of a replay and then watching a couple of videos talking about the psychology behind it shout out to Daryl talks games for a really good video about the psychology of Gris.

01:09:40.71
Eric
I think I saw that same one too. It's a very good video.

01:09:41.83
Dave
Ah, so yeah I mean darrell always talks well about games. It's a good channel. So um, yeah, the anger section here I think is well.

01:09:58.67
Dave
Constructed with the environmental detail with the color of course. But then also with your actions during the section.

01:10:10.45
Dave
Um, one of your first clues in this section too will kind of clue you in maybe on what's going on in the story because you don't have a lot of context at this point but that part where you smash the floor and go down into that you know, black and white. You know. Light world and dark world area is a temple of sorts and it's full of these statues of crying women. Um you know, not just crying I mean like wrecked in grief and sorrow and down in that basement area where you. Let all of those ah the birds or whatever they are where you smash the ground and they're released. It's full of these statues so that got me thinking that this is either representative of her but it could be the person she lost and I went back and forth for most of the game wondering if it was a girlfriend or. A friend or a mother which it did turn out to be.

01:11:09.42
Eric
But just because it turned out to be that doesn't mean your interpretation would have been wrong even if you wanted to decide. It was a friend or a girlfriend or whatever because like yeah because like that's a beautiful thing about this game is like it's open ended enough like yes, canonically it is her mother that she loses but the lessons can still be applied to.

01:11:16.10
Dave
No I mean that? yeah.

01:11:29.33
Eric
Even if it's not something that you like you've lost some someone like grief can be attributed to like many many different things like oh you maybe you broke up with someone a year or things like that. Um, it's open ended enough that you can still kind of connect with it personally and apply it to your own life If you.

01:11:46.13
Dave
Yeah I mean the fact that it is her mother doesn't really change anything about the journey that's going on. It could be any kind of loss. So that's a good point for you that it.

01:11:47.70
Eric
I Went through something similar.

01:11:52.40
Eric
Right.

01:12:02.25
Dave
Doesn't really have to be somebody dying even if it can be a different kind of loss that would send you through this kind of emotional journey that those statues could represent some version of herself, some you know grown-up version of herself or because those statues don't look exactly like her. But

01:12:13.77
Eric
Um, yeah.

01:12:21.14
Dave
Some version of herself that is lost like you said we do find out in that secret ending that it is her mother but that doesn't really change any way that you would perceive the journey. She's going on. So.

01:12:23.10
Eric
Yeah.

01:12:38.56
Dave
After this green is introduced into the world and this one is an interesting one for me because its bargaining is the next step on the journey. That's the achievement that you unlock says bargaining but green is a color that could have a lot of different. Uses and I personally chose to read this in a couple of different ways like there is a bargaining process if you want to talk about that. But this is also the happiest section of the game until like maybe the end this is actually a pretty chipper section. The music is nice and. Curious and it's this nice forest level. There's all these things living in the forest. It's um, this is the first part in the game where it's not just all bad times.

01:13:29.12
Eric
Yeah I would agree and I think Green is an interesting choice here because normally Green is more often associated with better times and happier things like you literally haven't noticed. It says it symbolizes life and I think that.

01:13:41.88
Dave
Yeah, could yeah.

01:13:47.98
Eric
Green being the choice here you know I the way I look at the bargaining stage is that like um, it's not like you're like bargain like you're making a deal with a devil like if I do this x person will return. It's not necessarily that cut and dry. Um, bargaining is very like the first place we try to like. Understand what happened and try to justify it or try to make it make sense in the framework of whatever your world currently is um because as we go through this like after you and we know that based on the 5 stages after bargaining is depression. So um. Bargaining maybe is green because you you feel a little bit better here and you're starting to try and and understand your grief and and make sense of it and you're able to function and go through life and and start to kind of like enjoy some things until you kind of maybe slip back into that blue which is depression which we'll talk about coming up. So.

01:14:33.10
Dave
Yeah.

01:14:44.90
Eric
That's kind of how I interpreted it and as you say in your notes here too like red is still very present in the stage as well. So you're not. It's not just like a fade to green it almost kind of like gradients its way into the green stage as well like it's still there and like accent colors and kind of in the background and stuff so again symbolizing that.

01:14:50.40
Dave
Yeah.

01:15:02.91
Eric
You're not just done with anger. You don't close that gate and like move on to the next one as you start to bargain and and make sense of what happened you still have shades of that that resentment and that anger in there as well and you still might even have shades of that denial I'm sure there's some white in there as you play through too. That you know all these kinds of things like mixing together as you process this.

01:15:23.94
Dave
Yeah, those. Um, since the game is giving such importance to those 5 main colors. You know, white black I don't know, maybe not 5 but white black red green blue. And then eventually yellow is the last one that gets introduced into the game. Um, those colors will continue to mean something so if you ever just stop and look and kind of be like okay what colors are here. That's representative of the emotional state. What's going on and this green level is where I really really appreciate those touches to let you know that this is not a clean linear journey like you said you finished anger and you close the gate and anger is contained in the old room and now you're in the bargaining room. It's not like that so red in this forest level. All the trees are red so it's here and maybe if you want to use the symbolism of trees taking root like those roots of anger are deep and hard to get rid of. Um, also through this stage again. This is another long descent to begin this stage so you make progress in the last stage you introduce the new color into the world. But you're immediately down down down down and this is a game where that means something.

01:16:53.97
Dave
Ah, when you descend later on in this the red takes over again. So you go through this nice forest section and there's a thing I want to talk about with the forest section in a second. But after the forest section you get introduced to. The main antagonist of the game which is those birds that you released earlier kind of coalesce into this giant bird thing and if you notice during this quote boss fight all the other colors go away and it's pure angry red all over again. Is this so well realized again to show you that? No this is not a linear journey even though this game is packaged within a linear progression. The character is not going through a completely neat linear progress here.

01:17:47.72
Eric
Yeah, and I really like that symbolism too like I Really think Green is when it hit me that this is kind of what the game was doing because you know it had the touches of red as we progress into the green section and then as we kind of have this I Guess it's like an escape sequence with yeah this giant Inc. Blob Bird Shape Monster. Ah, it's really trying to chase us and and and devour us and prevent us from going through and and finishing that journey Again. We're not just sequestered from the anger section here like that. Creatures a very real representation of sometimes you just wake up and your mind drags you back into that place where you were before of your anger that's kind of how ah I felt and I interpreted. It.

01:18:31.68
Dave
Yeah, a hundred percent um there's 2 things about this boss fight I want to mention real quick Gris's cape that she wears or her dress when you do the double jump and the glide it looks like the bird's wings. So I'll anna later on this.

01:18:49.89
Eric
Um, yeah.

01:18:51.41
Dave
Creature actually does turn into a representation of herself so there is an aspect of this journey where you must. You know, reckon with yourself and your own feelings I suppose in order to complete the journey here. The other thing is that. The way This boss fight works is the bird is blowing you like this sandstorms were earlier so you have to platform make progress through these levels without getting blown backwards eventually though. Ah you're not trying to avoid getting blown Backwards. You're using the bird to propel you forward. Which I thought was meaningful that they reversed that as if you know this is a sign of progress that's being made within this really bad time.

01:19:32.34
Eric
Yes.

01:19:42.40
Eric
Right? And as long as you're It's not wrong to experience that feeling of anger right? and it's not wrong to try and bargain and make sense of it. You know and some days will be better. Some days will be worse but eventually you will. Make that progress forward and it is just the symbols that are just so Beautiful. Oh Love it.

01:19:58.88
Dave
It is yeah now there is another part about this like green bargaining level here a personal interpretation that I took outside of like the symbolism of the stages of grief and progress and falls and things like that to me. This really felt like Gris had a good day during this green section because the green section is this. It's this wonderful forest. The music is upbeat. There's a part where you make friends with a little box dude out in the forest. Ground pound on some trees to have little apples fall and he eats them and then you go Back. You meet his family. They give you a star so you can progress. It's a really pleasant experience and it kind of reminds me of if you're in this you know shitstorm of ah a life Situation. You can still have good days along the way and so I just kind of imagined this as like maybe Gris went out for a walk in the forest with a friend or saw an animal out in the forest. You know, a nice little encounter or something like that. Um.

01:21:15.82
Dave
The fact that even though the thing right before This was super negative. The bright red Anger level and then what comes after this is also pretty negative that boss fight with the bird this to me symbolized represented. That you can have good days in between.

01:21:34.26
Eric
And that's where I kind of when I was playing the game drew my comparison of like the stars you get for the constellation being like those little moments in the midst of all this like you said you get the star when you hang out with this box suit and meet his.

01:21:41.77
Dave
Yeah.

01:21:49.70
Eric
And meet his family and they give you that star and it adds to the constellation which eventually builds your way up and out so that's kind of where I was like okay like yeah this was a good day that she had and when you have those good experiences amidst this kind of just general Awfulness. You're dealing with that does help. Ah, in the healing process too, like you said, go on a hike or go out with your friends or do something with somebody that's important to you or something that you Love. It's important to still try to do those things. Yeah, even if you're still struggling and you will still struggle and that's that's ok.

01:22:25.00
Dave
Yeah, and that's represented here too. The fact that even in the middle of this very pleasant experience that you're having in the forest with the little block dude. The red is still very present. The anger is there. It's always there in the Background. Um. And then work. That's right in a way. Ah, you know, maybe someone brought their dog on the hike and you know who doesn't who doesn't love hanging out with a dog. So um, in a way like.

01:22:41.81
Eric
He's eating the red Apple so it's almost like he's eating the anger. Ah.

01:22:47.87
Eric
Yeah, yeah.

01:22:56.77
Dave
Those like the loss of everything that you went through before this are still very present in the scene but it's a very positive scene again. You can have this good experience even when everything else in your life is upside down and then when the bird. Then the monster shows up and all of that drains away. It's it's right back to red so it kind of got me thinking about like you know if you are going through one of those times in your life and I've gone through ah enough of them myself to know you can distract yourself or like you can go do stuff with friends and they can distract you but the second you're back home and you're back alone with your thoughts all that can just come rushing back. So that's what this felt like to me, you know when you get that moment of quiet when your brain is back to like.

01:23:42.85
Eric
Um, yeah, absolutely.

01:23:54.20
Dave
The new normal for this period of time. All of that comes rushing back for her here. So um, yeah, good. Ah good level here. There's a lot of detail. This was again one I'm glad that I played it twice. Because there's a lot of these details that I wouldn't have picked up on, especially that kind of working theory about having a nice day in the midst of all this, you know, sorrow? Yeah music here.

01:24:24.61
Eric
Um, right.

01:24:30.16
Dave
So after this green level is over the next level introduces blue into the mix and if you didn't already know that blue represents depression as it commonly represents it rains at the beginning of this level too. So just make sure that you get it. This is the depression section and kind of along what I was talking about earlier. It felt really natural for me because when you go out, you have that nice day and then you come home and your mind is back to the pit. Basically um. As the nice stuff washes away. It can wash away even further behind and leave you in this state of depression which is what comes next here for Gris.

01:25:23.43
Dave
And another touch again. In case, you are not, um, fully on board with the feeling that's happening here. This is an underground level and it involves a lot of underwater sections too. Ah, both things that you might associate with a feeling of Depression. You know, feeling like you're underwater.

01:25:47.43
Eric
And ah, it's also raining here too. In case, it wasn't on the nose enough for you? Yeah, but yeah, no I agree because you will have those good days in the midst of everything and in a way counterintuitively that almost makes things worse because.

01:25:48.14
Dave
Right? yeah.

01:26:03.62
Eric
You may have had that good day and just had a blast out with your friends or doing whatever. But yeah, as soon as you're out of that moment and all that stuff comes rushing back. It almost makes it feel like it's worse than it was because it was gone for a couple of hours you got a chance to to get away from it for a little while and.

01:26:12.87
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:26:22.10
Eric
Yeah I mean again I think this level's pretty on the noses too. But ah, this is it to anybody That's gone through depression or or anything like that I mean I've gone through my fair share of it as well. Ah back in my twenties. It does feel like a deep dark. Abyss It feels like you're Underground. It feels like you're being Crushed. It feels like you know there's a lot of water on the stage. It feels like ah, almost like a drowning sensation. It really really does Ah which is a weird way to to just kind of be able to describe how it feels So this level is.

01:26:58.10
Eric
I Think this one probably hit me the most just because I just was able to relate to it so much without getting to like personal stuff I was like yeah this is exactly how I felt at certain stages when I Essentially this is like feeling like you're at Rock bottom and this is really, you're on an underground cavern you.

01:27:06.67
Dave
Yeah, um.

01:27:17.95
Eric
You go down really really, really really far and it feels like this is the absolute bottom pits of despair that you cannot get out of.

01:27:24.20
Dave
Yeah I mean there's a section of this where you're in like the actual abyss like where no,, there's no light. You can't see where you're going, stuff like that. So again, it's very forward with what it's representing here but this is a part where. Kind of like the Anger stage I suppose but this is a part where even if you did not have a really terrible loss that left a huge impact on you I mean who hasn't gone through Bouts of depression and parts where you feel like you're underwater or like you said being crushed in all directions. So you know.

01:28:02.61
Dave
Being on the nose is not necessarily a bad thing and they want to represent again in many different ways. How the character is feeling here. There is a part in this where you have to go down in the deep dark abyss and you can't go through this alone. Um, you have to have the help of a friendly sea turtle that comes and first provides a light so you can see where you're going and I think you know representative of the value of others during a time like this and it's not to say. That being around other people or inviting other people into your space is the one cure for depression but the value of having other people or maybe it's not a person the value of a pet or something else to provide love and support to you. Ah, is shown here with the sea turtle I think as it literally guides you through the darkness.

01:29:05.35
Eric
Yeah, and that's again, very representative of in Western culture. We tend to feel like we need to kind of stuff all these things down right and that even if we're depressed. We kind of need to stuff it down, internalize it and you know man up and and deal with it. We've seen it kind of.

01:29:14.81
Dave
Yeah.

01:29:24.31
Eric
Grit our teeth and kind of plow through you know so kind of how we were in the Anger Section. Ah, but that's not the healthiest way to deal when you're feeling emotions like this and like you said somebody doesn't always have to be around you like you don't have to cling onto somebody. But. I Think it shows emotional maturity when you do accept that help whether it's talking to somebody or like you said just snuggling with your pet or like the ultimate form of help like if you decide to go and get therapy I think something we've done a really good job as as society.

01:29:52.86
Dave
Right.

01:29:59.41
Eric
If we've we've really come around on therapy not being like this taboo thing like oh so and so it's going to Therapy. They must be really really messed up. I've been to Therapy and it's incredibly helpful for literally anything you're dealing with so seeking out that help is representative of the turtle. Ah, to kind of guide you through those dark waters is not.. It's not a sign of weakness. It's not a bad thing. It's one of the most positive things you can do to try and heal yourself. I Also like that the ability you get in this section is to literally swim through the water. So It's the ability to navigate this darkness.

01:30:31.48
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:30:36.11
Eric
Ah, these kinds of twisting and winding tunnels which really kind of feels like what it's like to navigate depression. It's this twisting winding ah trying to get out of this funk this bad feeling the sadness that you're in and I just found that Again. Ah, another really great ability to compliment Again. It's another great example of how. All the things in this game work together to just hammer home this message: the ability to turtle the darkness when you're swimming around in and ah the way it's blue all this stuff. It's so cool.

01:31:05.74
Dave
Yeah, speaking of gameplay like the section before this in the green forest level the ability you get is a double jump, a glide and then the ability to use those little red butterflies to do like a super jump. So the abilities that you get.

01:31:20.18
Eric
Oh yeah, yeah.

01:31:24.30
Dave
With that and then in the Cavern the underground level the ability to swim literally the ability to navigate this place. Um, the abilities are about empowerment and empowerment is something we expect in video games. We expect our character to get stronger. To gain new abilities is a given thing ever since like Super Mario Brothers. We expect that but it does have an extra meaning in this game because you do need little things to empower you to get through these events that you're going through here. There's an interesting red.


01:32:01.71
Dave
There's an interesting read that I heard about the turtle and how it is this friendly force in the story here but I did not notice this came from that video. We talked about earlier but the turtle is Red. So if you are. Again, ascribing an emotion to a color and thinking that those are consistent throughout the whole game which they should be, that turtle being read should be representative that Anger is here and that anger is being used to get through situations. In a way which I thought was quite interesting.

01:32:40.42
Eric
That is interesting and yes I would say that anger in itself is not inherently bad because it's a human emotion right? Sometimes the results of anger can be bad but I would say yeah it can also be a tool and the concept of.

01:32:50.53
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:33:00.21
Eric
I didn't really think about that when I watched the same video and I didn't really think about that too much until we started talking about it just now but the concept of using one of the other stages and emotions to get through another stage is very very interesting and just again, another example of the way that. Blends all the themes together and blends all the colors together. So It's not just and this is why we said at the in the non spoilers section if this just would have been like a green to a red to green to blue to yellow type of Journey. This wouldn't have been as impactful because you wouldn't have moments like this.

01:33:31.80
Dave
Right? exactly.

01:33:43.32
Dave
I Completely forgot what I was going to say. Hold on, cut this and I'm glad that you mentioned that Anger is portrayed in that negative light and is certainly used in a negative way earlier in the game.

01:33:43.85
Eric
They lose you.

01:34:01.65
Dave
But Anger itself is a normal emotion that you know humans and other sentient beings feel. It is a normal thing to happen. So it is you know so it does make sense that Gris would possibly benefit from the presence of anger during this. Um, I am not quite sure you know if you want to map this onto a specific thing that would happen in her life. I'm not sure how you would map that on but it does make sense. It does make sense that anger could be helpful along the way there is nothing violent particularly about. What happens in the presence of anger in this scene if that's the way you want to read this with the turtle later on the monster comes back. The bird comes back this time. It's an eel because you're underwater and number one it comes at a time when you have just made great progress through the level. You are about to go and you know do the thing with the stars, keep working on that bridge until you know the better place and then the eel comes back and it chases you way back down into the Cavern. It's like a literal maze and you're just. Swimming away from this Eel. It's another Chase Sequence. So There's that orient the blind forest inspiration here I feel like and then right at the moment when the eel is about to snap down on Gris. The turtle comes back, bursts the eel apart and guides you to safety.

01:35:37.17
Dave
Again. So you could have that again representing Anger being the thing that helps you through this particularly terrible episode and then you come out of it with a slightly different mindset on the other side or a different feeling. It could also be just the benefit of accepting help. Whatever form that might take um, a lot of ways to look at it and this again this is not a game that seems interested in telling you that you're wrong about the way you feel about a certain thing or what it represents. So yeah, it's just ah, just a really endlessly interesting game.

01:36:13.21
Eric
Yeah, it's really indicative of again how you can make incredible progress in battling depression and going through this stage of working through your grief only for your you just come in basically because we've kind of already established that this kind of dark. Ink monsters representation of Gris's inner darkness or kind of she's kind of like her own worst enemy right? which is how a lot of us are when we're we're dealing with stuff like this our self sabotage is often our own worst enemy ah which can you know we use other things to try and get through and get help and get help and stuff like that. But I think it's. Again, we made all this progress in the blue in the depression and in swimming through these labyrinths and in and finding the turtle helping us get the semblance of escaping the depths of depression and we sabotage ourselves on it to dive back down there and this doesn't happen. This could be. You could be at a point in your life where like 2 three years ago and you're perfectly fine and stuff like that and then suddenly this comes along and drags you back down. It can be something that happens over a very long period of time when you least expect it.

01:37:23.20
Dave
Yeah, yeah I mean this kind of grief or sorrow or loss or whatever you are going through whatever this game is representing is not something that is going to be over by the time that ah you know the quote that. Progression through the stages of grief is over. It doesn't mean that you never think about it again, never have any bad times afterwards. You know it can always come back and especially if you are the type of person that suffers from chronic depression or just knows episodes that come up.

01:37:45.66
Eric
Oh.

01:37:57.29
Dave
Um, it comes back and it doesn't necessarily have to be something bad that triggers it you can just come back and that's I think represented here in this game a lot of times when you think you're making great progress. That's when you fall even farther down.

01:38:04.87
Eric
Yeah.

01:38:14.80
Dave
And have to work your way back up? Yeah, the next level after this is when Yellow is introduced into the world and this is the level where Gris gets her voice back and it's the last gameplay mechanic you get where you can.\

01:38:34.00
Dave
Use the voice to breathe life back into the flowers and plants and things in the environment and these will release those butterflies that you use for the super jumps. So it's used for puzzling the platforming but also as we kind of talked about at the beginning of the spoiler section. Representative of Gris kind of finding herself again and being able to truly navigate this space with a gameplay reinforcement because now you have every ability that you're ever going to get in this game for this acceptance level.

01:39:13.98
Eric
Yeah I really think that I was trying to think about a couple different points I wanted to make. But yeah, the moment she got her voice back was incredibly powerful and ah is indicative of accepting what happened and. Almost kind of making it a part of yourself in a way because it's not something that goes away I mean it's an experience that you went through and it's something that you know sometimes you'll still even think about it from time to time you almost carry it kind of like a scar on yourself. But. You you manage to find your sense of self again and find the beauty in life and and meaning and and all these types of things and except that it happened and you can live with it and that usually does make you interact with the world in a positive way again. Whether that's the way you're. Ah, treating or interacting with people or your work or your hobbies you're you're finding joy and fulfillment in these things again whereas before maybe you couldn't or maybe you you weren't or you stopped pursuing certain things because you just didn't feel happy doing them or you just felt like you couldn't and then Gris gets her voice back. Which is literally The first thing we see you're doing in the entire game is singing so it's really beautiful for a full circle moment.

01:40:28.77
Dave
Yeah I'm glad you mentioned that this is her interacting with the world in a positive way that at this point in the journey that she's on she is able to interact with the world in a positive way more consistently and so the way that it is. Gamified in here is by using the voice to grow the flowers and you know you're making the world around you a better place when you're doing this so it. It's okay.

01:40:55.97
Eric
And it's really not a sorry I mean to interrupt. Um, it's really symbolic. I just thought of it and I got really excited. It's really symbolic too with ah the way as you move through the stages you know Red is the first stage you move through and that ability we get is ah very kind of. Restricts your movement.. It's also very destructive and then as we go through green and blue the 2 abilities you get are traversal something to help you navigate through those stages and then Yellow being the stage where you get your voice back. This is the ability that allows you to interact with the world in a positive way and grow and grow things and change things. So.

01:41:34.76
Eric
I Just realized now that the progression of abilities from something that's very hard and destructive to something that's very positive and a good force in the world is also kind of very cool.

01:41:46.60
Dave
Yeah, there's you know that old adage that you have to first know work on yourself or be at peace with yourself before you can positively impact the world around you.

01:41:59.87
Eric
Right.

01:42:01.10
Dave
And that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it and I'm not sure that I totally agree with it. But I think that is represented here in this game where everything that you're doing gameplay-wise ability-wise is empowering the character Gris and then the final ability. Is the thing that makes the world around her better only when she is fully empowered herself then she can affect the world around her in a positive Way. So It's a good observation for you. Um, this level itself I thought was pretty interesting because you might be fully empowered as a character.

01:42:26.32
Eric
Right.

01:42:37.85
Dave
As you know a character in a video game. She might be more empowered as a person within herself but the level is one that kind of shows me that despite all of this. It's still not a super smooth journey because this is the level where.

01:42:56.74
Dave
You're constantly going across this little threshold in the middle of the level that causes you to fall up to the ceiling and the game is upside down now and part of the puzzle in this is you're constantly moving between the right side up world and the upside down World. Showing to me that you know, no matter what progress she's making, things are not perfect. Still they're not Normal. You're still going through the ups and downs of the journey here which um is well observed to me even late in the game. Characters at the most empowered that they are as you know an avatar in here. You still have these swings and then at the very end of the level.. It's very pronounced like the world writes itself in slow motion and then you're on your way to the final stage.

01:43:52.39
Eric
Yeah, it's ah it's a very beautiful way of kind of showing you that acceptance isn't the end but it's really the point at which you can kind of start to make sense of the world again and that's kind of the way I took it where she's kind of jumping up between.

01:44:04.87
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:44:09.83
Eric
Ah, reverse gravity upside down and and right side up and kind of that's literally her with her full set of abilities with her full sense of self intact. Um, starting to relearn how to make sense of this new world where. Things are different right? You're different. Ah maybe somebody in your life is gone or something happened ah is traumatic and you know you've come out the other end of that experience or you're you're at the end of that experience. You've grown as a person, you're not the same person that you used to be so you have to kind of make sense of the world again. With your new worldview or or in the way that you've grown.

01:44:47.37
Dave
Yeah, and this is the part in the game when you have completed that bridge made of stars and in you know what I think is another great observation and story point in this game Gris goes out. She starts to.

01:44:53.85
Eric
Yeah, yeah.

01:45:05.37
Dave
Get ready to climb up that bridge of stars and you think that you're done you have made it but suddenly that monster returns and instead of a bird or an eel this time it is herself. It's a giant version of herself and it sucks. All the color out of the world back to black and white and it sends her tumbling all the way back down again and not just to the bottom where the game first started. It's down into this black ocean and you have to swim up out of this black ocean and what you come out at. Is a tomb for a dead woman. Um, again, it's unclear right now who the woman is but this is your final thing where it's like yes she lost somebody. This is what this is but I love the fact that when you thought that you beat the game. Because you collected all the stars and when Gris is ready to make that final movement. It's all gone. You are tumbling back down again who knows what caused it. It could be a funeral maybe I don't I don't know but it could be going to visit the grave or something like that. But again once you think that you're victorious. Not so fast.

01:46:21.79
Eric
Yeah, it could even be as simple as you know you've made it out the other side and you've lived your life and you feel happy and stuff now but just one little thing can remind you of whatever it was and it can it really I know people throw the term triggered around in a lot of different ways. But it really can.

01:46:30.98
Dave
Yeah.

01:46:39.41
Eric
Trigger you and literally drag you back down all the way to the bottom to to where you started so it symbolizes it really does take a lot of time and work and effort to get to a point where you're better and you've healed and you accept the new way that the world is but even at that point. Even when you think that the end is in sight. You know it may not be you may still have to deal with lingering depression or you may go all the way back down and have to go through it all over again. It's very It's very possible and ah it is very symbolic that the shadow ink monster takes the form ah of Gris. Like I said a couple parts earlier. It's really symbolic of yeah at the end of the day we can be our own worst enemies at the end of the day and in our inability to kind of let go or accept or or challenge those things on our own.

01:47:30.42
Dave
Yep, and I like how this game does not make you quote you know, kill the darkness inside of you in order to make progress through this the way that she makes progress through it. It is the first. Ah you she uses what she can to make the world better around her so she is better equipped to deal with these setbacks at this point in the game she can walk right Away. She can swim. Ah, you go up to the grave she can sing and all the flowers bloom around the tomb down there and then she climbs up the broken pieces of this statue she sings and the pieces start to form back together into a complete statue but while this is happening the inky black. Water is rising and you can see it kind of you rising up then it's at the level of her face then it's covering her face and only her mouth and eyes are showing and she's singing and it swallows her up again completely submerged by the water here as that final statue pace. Ah, peace locks into place all the while she was singing and then what breaks this apart and banishes The darkness is the statue also starts to sing and this is a really poignant and powerful moment.

01:48:58.46
Dave
Because you can immediately tell that number 1 singing is a connection that she had with her mother and the fact that it's not again, it's not this jrpg type like you know you're gonna kill the demon inside of you or something like that.

01:49:15.40
Eric
Time to kill god.

01:49:17.53
Dave
Exactly Um, the way that you make progress through this is that the person that she lost is there and probably always has been there but she hasn't been in a position to realize this and this is a thing that yeah another game that we I talked about on the show recently. Ah, which will go nameless right now. I don't want to spoil one of the big things about that game but you can look back at the episode list and figure it out if you don't already know. But this idea that the person that you lost is with you and is helping you along the way. The fact that this person she lost is not gone out of sight out of mind forever just with you in a different way. That's the thing that helps her progress to ultimately the end of the game.

01:50:06.98
Eric
Right? And it's really this kind of yeah again, the symbolism just strikes me to her is the point that the darkness almost completely overwhelms her while she's singing and you know the lesson I took away from that or the symbolism I took away from that was you know. She's going through this again and that darkness is blowing back up inside to pull our back down but you know throughout this whole journey that we've been on with her and that she's been on. You know, look at all the abilities and stuff that she's gained and just the way that the gameplay tells you she is better equipped to handle it now and. Again, that's kind of a mirror of real life is when you when you go through things you are better equipped to to kind of process more similar feelings like that and you are better equipped to when those relapses do happen and if you do fall back down into those pits you're you're better able to get out of them Again. You know if you've overcome that Hill once before and you're right? It is a very beautiful symbolism that even though that person is dead if they are physically gone or if it's a breakup if they've left your life or however, they've left your life or whatever's happened. They are still there with you. The things that you did with them and the lessons they taught you and the things that you were influenced by no if it is your parents. You know it's the lessons we took from them and the memories and the moments we shared with them that sort of thing and it's just again, it's such a beautiful message.

01:51:37.14
Dave
I also wanted to shout out a small little part of this scene after the darkness is banished. The statue is whole again. Um, Gris is singing. The statue is singing back Gris. Kind of jumps over once she realizes what's going on and she kisses the statue on the cheek. It's ah I mean it's a big statue. It's much bigger than her. Ah, but that was just such a sweet little animation there. Ah you can immediately feel the love and happiness on Gris's part you know of this.

01:51:59.89
Eric
Yeah.

01:52:11.54
Dave
Um, maybe realizing that she's having that in a way This person is still here. Yeah, really wonderful. Um, so the statue.

01:52:19.10
Eric
Yeah.

01:52:29.90
Dave
Then Lifts Gris back up to the point where that star bridge begins and this is the ending and kind of rolls into the credits and ending song of the game but she walks up the star bridge as she's walking Up. She's singing and harmonizing with the statue with her mother. And she ascends up into the clouds and that's the end of the game and the credits roll continuing that harmony that they sing together and it's not a super happy Song. It's still a pretty sad song during the credits but the. The most powerful part of it is that they are together. Um in a way. Whatever kind of meaning you're taking from the game. It's very clear at the end that whoever she lost whatever manner that they were lost. They're together. Um, and I think that if the game taught you anything. It's that she did not conquer Grief. She's still going to have bad times along the way the journey continues but now she has this person back in a way.

01:53:40.19
Eric
Yeah I would agree. It's something that it doesn't. It's not really a destination. It. It is a continuing journey and ah time does heal most wounds and kind of will help blunt those feelings but it's something that'll always be there with you and it may be there with you for. A long time. Ah again I'm a person that wears my heart on my sleeve. So a vast majority of my twenties I was kind of going through similar stuff in the way that this game communicated a lot of the emotions and it really connected with me and. It's just now that I've gotten into my thirties and kind of started a new chapter of my life that I've really been kind of able to look back on those times and kind of really process them without sinking into the depths of complete despair and sadness. So um, it's.

01:54:29.40
Eric
It's a lifelong journey and sometimes it takes years and years and years for you to get to a point where you can accept the things that happened or accept the loss and you may never accept it. It may always hurt a little bit but you learn the tools and the skills and you become stronger as a person you're able to kind of. Handle it better and understand that you know life isn't over and that person may still be with you or the things you went through ah did make you a better person in the long run. So ah, ah that was like my personal connection when the credit credits rolled and that's just what I sat down I thought about immediately as that song was kind of playing and.

01:54:56.92
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:55:07.57
Eric
It really connected with me personally in a way that I honestly didn't expect it to.

01:55:10.20
Dave
Yeah I mean I think that the kind of takeaway along with that person always being with you in a way is that at the end of the journey here Gris is able to she still has the bad times for sure. But she is also able to have those positive memories and associations again with that person and it's chosen in the secret ending when it shows a flashback of her and her mom looking at the stars together which explains the significance of collecting stars to make the constellation in the game here and I think about. Some people that I've lost whether it be grandparents or some friends that died tragically too early and when I think about them today. It's still sad like you get those pangs of sadness that that person is gone and you wish that they weren't but. Along with that. You do have the positive memories that come back and early on in the journey in this game Gris was probably not able to have those positive memories at the time it's it's negativity for the most time it's negative emotions for the most time. It's negative emotions for the most part so this kind of rings true to me, you know when I think about the people that I lost when I think about how I think about them when the memories come back up. It really works.

01:58:01.97
Eric
Yeah I would agree with you one hundred percent just thinking about people that I've left my life and now being able to think about them in a more positive light and the memories that we shared together and the experience you have with them really does leave a mark on you and. And it's kind of cheesy like human connections like oh there goes Eric into his kingdom hearts like hearts are connected bullshit. But you know it really? It really is true and they just become that people leave an impact on you and ah in a way even though they're physically gone. They're never, they never are really gone.

01:58:26.20
Dave
Ah.

01:58:37.10
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, yeah, exactly? Um, so it's it's a I don't know and I think that like again I said in the beginning that I didn't.

01:58:40.80
Eric
As long as you have the memories and the happy thoughts of them. Friends are your power.

01:58:55.52
Dave
Fully fully resonate with this. Um I think that it would have been a game that completely crushed me if I had lost a parent which I thankfully have not um or like somebody.

01:59:09.59
Eric
Ah.

01:59:12.13
Dave
Of that level of closeness , closeness to me. Um I was a little kid when my grandparents died So That's a long time ago. Um, if I were to play this game when those things were more raw or more recent or like I said to someone who is that close to me. Ah, this game I think would have absolutely crushed me as it is. I can still connect with things that happened in my life and people that I've lost. But um I think that this game has potential for even more connection if you are on the level. That I don't want to say that? yeah I Just want to yeah I Just think that this game has the potential for the almost limitless potential for connection with a certain person and their personal history.

02:00:07.50
Eric
Yeah, it's not. It's not a game I mean it it holds on let me restart that yeah and it's a rare game because most games won't kind of tackle this subject to this degree in this fashion. It's not something that is.

02:00:18.92
Dave
Yeah.

02:00:25.27
Eric
Comfortable to talk about.. It's not something that we enjoy talking about. So The fact that they made this kind of experience and captured it the way they did in such an incredible manner with all the symbolism and just the complete package that it is. Is something that is really amazing and something that that should be celebrated like you said it's similar to the way that a lot I'm sure a lot of people connected with with celeste and and the story and the messaging in that game. Ah, that's rare in ah in an age where games are more and more made for just mass consumption and entertainment. This is yeah this was a surprise, something that caught me off guard and something that yeah I think almost probably anybody can take away some kind of connection to it because we all experienced it differently. But. Ah, we've all kind of gone through similar things as human beings. We have similar experiences just in different ways and it'll connect to you differently. But I think everybody has experienced that to a level where you can understand the symbolism behind the story for sure.

02:01:19.36
Dave
Um, yeah.

02:01:26.19
Dave
Yeah, yeah, 100%. It's definitely built in a way where they're telling a specific story here, but it is general enough that you can apply it to your own experience. So this is a really good product and I actually think that it's something that I appreciate more. After having this discussion with you about it, which is valuable. It's one of my favorite things about the podcast and the discussions that we can have when I come out of a discussion with a greater appreciation for a game than I went into the discussion with and I already liked the game. You know I already thought it was really good and valuable and. Um, you know a worthy piece of art that comes out of a discussion 2 hours later with an even greater appreciation for it. Um I think that there's great value in that too. So thank you for coming on and being a part of this.

02:02:19.20
Eric
Thank you Dave for having me this way again. This was a really really great one and I want us to be excited the day this one comes out because I think I'm the same way as you. I appreciate the same greater than I did before I talked to you and I'm really excited to kind of see. The conversations may spur and in the Discord server because I think just talking with everybody else about this game too. I think that maybe our appreciation will grow even more and maybe some people will be inspired to pick it up and try it. Maybe it wasn't on their radar. Ah, knowing that it's a relatively short experience. They can check off pretty quickly.

02:02:52.23
Dave
yeah yeah I hope so and if this is a game where you just listen through the spoiler section even though you didn't play it and you know what it's about I don't think that. I think that there is still value there for you to go back and play it yourself and pick up on symbolism and you will probably connect with different things about it because that's the nature of games like this games that are like connecting with personal experiences and feelings. They're going to hit everybody in different ways and different things will hit different people in different ways. So I think that there is value in going back and playing this and I'm preparing myself to get wrecked by the story of Nava whenever that comes out. So.

02:03:37.75
Eric
Ah, yeah I will be ready for are we ready for this studio to hurt me again for sure.

02:03:43.39
Dave
That's right? Yep So again, this has been a really valuable productive conversation. I'm really happy that you were a part of this. So thank you again for coming on.

02:03:54.53
Eric
Dave. It's always a pleasure to be on a show of this magnitude. It's always the honor that is mine. So.

02:03:59.79
Dave
Cool. Well thank you man and thank you to everybody who has listened all the way to the end. We appreciate you as always one more plug and shout out for you to go down in the show notes check out everything that Eric is doing on the unlockables. It is worth your time. Ah, especially if you love kingdom hearts. But even if you don't, you're not a kingdom hearts person. Go check out the other content because it's not all kingdom hearts Eric likes to pretend that he's pigeon folded himself but he's got other stuff going on over there. So.

02:04:30.34
Eric
I know I know who I am in the community Dave I know I know I've typecast myself so it's okay.

02:04:35.61
Dave
That's true. You do have ah you do have a reputation but I'm just saying there is other stuff. It's not all key blades and darkness and I don't know other stuff that's going on in kingdom hearts. So big appreciation for Eric here for this discussion. Thank you everybody for listening. And as always, tune in next week for the next game to come out of the backlog.