MIKE: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Acima Development Podcast.


A bit of context before I give more of the intro. Acima is part of a parent organization, Upbound. And, you know, we've got people from Upbound that, you know, we have joined with, with lots of experience, which will be relevant today, as we've got Seema, who's joining us from, you know, from Upbound, who'll be joining our conversation today, will be very relevant for the conversation.


But first, I'll give you a bit of an intro. I'm going to talk about sleep. So, you [laughter] ever tried to sleep in someplace different than your own bed [laughs]? And you know how hard that is. You know, it takes, like, days. You know, you go to a hotel, and you never sleep as well, wherever it is you have to sleep. And I think almost everybody has experienced this. It's a pretty universal experience, and something that I've historically had to deal with.


A few years ago...it's getting to be a few more years ago now, probably more than five years ago. I used to be, like, a side sleeper and sometimes even sleep on my belly. And I did a lot of camping with my kids, like, in the backyard especially. And laying on your arm on the hard ground overnight doesn't do good things. And [laughs] I noticed that after a summer, like, wow, I'm getting tingling in my fingers. This isn't a good thing.


So [chuckles], I had to learn to redo my sleep position, which was really, really hard at first because changing something that you've done for decades is just...it's a really hard habit to break, you know, something you've been doing since probably I was a baby, right? And [chuckles] making that change was really hard, and, eventually, I got used to it. I can now sleep on my back, roll over my side a little bit. It works.


And then I've got [chuckles]...my youngest child is a terrible sleeper. He...well, let me rephrase that. He actually sleeps pretty well, but if he's alone, he just doesn't sleep well. So, I usually lay next to him to get him to fall asleep, and I've done that since...he's five. He's five years old. So, I've been...I had to do it so much, I ended up just usually falling asleep next to him, right [chuckles]? And I have fallen asleep on the floor. I have fallen asleep on his bed. I have fallen asleep somewhere in between the floor and the bed [laughs], you know, just about anywhere.


And having dealt with that for the last five years, I'm to the point where he doesn't need to lay on my arm to fall asleep. He's okay with that. You know, I'll read a book to him while he's falling asleep. You know, he loves laying on my arm, but now he'll do without that. And I can usually go somewhere else for a while, but he'll still wake up in the night and say, you know, "Papa," and needs somebody there.


So, I'll tell you, five years of sleeping in random places makes you get really good at dealing with sleeping someplace different, and now I can sleep anywhere [laughs]. I go to a hotel, I just drop right off, and I am fine. Uncomfortable, fine, you know [laughs], with sleeping on the floor, I sleep great. It doesn't matter. If you go through enough of these things, eventually it breaks you, and you're just okay.


And [chuckles] I slept...I was traveling down to our corporate office in Texas about a month ago, and I hate hotel pillows. They always give me a kink in my neck. I got a terrible kink in my neck, but I slept through it anyway. I still got a kink in my neck a month later. Like, if you see me [laughs] wincing a little bit, that's why. But you know what? I still sleep fine. So, apparently, even though it's so hard to undo that, you can train yourself to be able to sleep anyway in different places.


Today, we're going to be talking about dealing with change, particularly org changes, and all the changes that happen in an organization. You know, we like to hunker down and do our engineering work, but sometimes we can't always do that. Recently, we've kind of realigned our team structure to be oriented toward value streams, which is considered best practice in the industry. I mean, this is a pretty standard thing to do.


There's a well-known book, Team Topologies, that goes in all the research about team structure that a lot of us have read. It says we should be doing exactly this. We have the stream-aligned teams, platform teams, enabling teams, complicated subsystem teams, is what they recommend. And, primarily, you should have these stream-aligned teams, and we've been organizing around that. We've been gradually moving this way for years, but, you know, we've really made a significant change where we consolidated some teams recently. So, it seemed timely to talk about change.


Now, Seema has been with Upbound, I think, longer than any of the rest of us here, so she's a perfect person to talk to dealing with these org changes that happen over time. And you've survived, Seema, and you've survived it. And you're still here to tell the story, or more stories, and hopefully some dirt that we could hear [laughs].


So, that's the topic today, and tactically, how do you deal with it? Because it's disruptive, right? Anytime you have change, it's disruptive. It slows you down. It makes things harder, and it's painful; it's awkward. Change is not fun. So, what do you do? That's what we're talking about today.


I'm going to start by opening things up. And do y'all have any initial thoughts, any of you, Seema or anybody else, about, you know, what do you do to deal with change?


SEEMA: Yeah, what a great topic, Mike. But, first of all, thank you so much for having me here; what an honor. And, to be honest, definitely it's my first time to be on Acima Podcast, but it's my first time to be on any podcast.


MIKE: [laughs]


DAVE: Oh, nice.


SEEMA: So, I'm super excited, but a little bit nervous as well, but looking forward to talking to you all for the next 45, what, 50 minutes, right?


As I was mentioning earlier, talking about my name, in all our teams' transcriptions, you know, every time somebody says, "Acima" it shows up as Seema, so maybe it's time that I should change my name, right [laughter]? Well, that was one fun fact.


Another fun fact about me, like, talking about how many years I have been here, Mike, I don't like to talk about this fun fact because I'm a little bit shy [laughs]. I don't want to share this, but tomorrow is my 21st work anniversary with Upbound, so yeah. So, I don't like to share it with people, but then, obviously, Mike has given me this opportunity to be on this podcast, so I wanted to share it with you guys. And I couldn't be more proud to be talking about RAC and changes and various reorgs we, or I, have gone through and still survived, I guess, you know?


So, just to give you guys...can I go ahead and give a little bit of intro about myself, Mike?


MIKE: Please.


SEEMA: Yeah. So, I joined Rent-A-Center on August 8th, back in 2005 as a PowerBuilder developer. I don't know how many of you still remember PowerBuilder. It was a software used to develop the client-server applications. So, I joined as a developer to build applications in our servicing department. But then, I think, two or three years after I joined, they decided to close the servicing department because it was not cost-effective. So, basically, they gave the responsibility for servicing our items to the individual stores.


So, at that time, I moved into our corporate applications department, the team that maintains or builds applications for the corporate departments, like HR, finance, legal, and things like that, right? So, I was...I learned ASP, classic ASP, not even .NET. We were not in .NET [laughter] at that time. So, it was classic ASP.


So, I was doing corporate applications for a couple of years, I think 8 or 10 years. And then when...I think, seven or eight years, around six or seven, when COVID hit, you know, our priorities changed. So, they pulled me in, you know, our CPO at that time, they pulled me in to help. I don't know how many of you remember; we used to have call center in Atlanta for the...except [inaudible 08:14].


So, because of the COVID, you know, our stores physically they were closed, right? But we still needed to serve our stores, our customers. So, they wanted to build an IVR solution, right, so that our customers could call 1-800 number and they get information on their accounts, right, how much amount due and things like that. So, that was something new for me because I had never worked with, you know, call center software. So, I did that.


And then we also implemented auto dialer because we wanted to gain efficiencies the way we kind of make outbound calls for collections or account management. So, I did that during COVID for two years. I think we were mainly focused on call center improvements or efficiencies.


And then after that, I came back to supporting the corporate applications, you know. But then five years or six years back, you know, the things in the corporate department or corporate applications world, for me, it was kind of getting stagnant. It was kind of slow. I was not feeling challenged.


And my daughters, I have twin girls; they are 23 now. So, they went to college at that time, like, six years back, 2021. So, I had kind of, like, to be honest, I felt a little bit depressed because I have twin girls. They went out of the house at the same time, so I was feeling a little bit lost. I had extra time, so I wanted to get more responsibility, wanted to do some more challenging work.


And at that time, you know, this opportunity to work into the point of sale system, RACPad, came. So, definitely, I mean, I don't know how many of you know me, but my passion is serving our customers, customer centricity. I mean, I love working on...I mean, directly or indirectly, all of us, obviously, we serve our customers, our coworkers, right? But working on RACpad as POS it allowed me to impact our coworkers day in, day out, like, directly because, you know, POS system, as we all know, it's so critical, right?


So, I mean, fast-forward, I am so proud to have taken that opportunity. Last five or six years have been the most rewarding time of my time here at Upbound, and I'm super proud of all the work that we have done as a team. And during this time, definitely, I mean, last 20 years, we have gone through several reorgs. I can't even remember how many buildings we changed. I think six or seven [laughter] buildings, physical buildings, we have changed.


DAVE: Oh wow.


SEEMA: Yeah, multiple reorgs. So, talking about, you know, what still kept me going and why I'm still here, I think, two reasons, two main reasons, right? And, I think, definitely after that we can talk about change and get everybody's perspective as well. But to answer your question that what kept me going and why I'm still here, first of all, to me, staying relevant is most important. And, fortunately, I always had the leaders who supported me, who coached me, and who allowed me to stay relevant.


Like, the example that I gave you guys, right, where I didn't feel that, you know, the work I was doing it was challenging enough, so I spoke to the leadership, and they allowed me...they gave me this opportunity to move into building a...into, you know, a team that was building a new POS system. And that was entirely new for me, new technology, AWS, new functional domain, everything new. It was basically like joining a new team, but, you know, with everybody's support because they believed in me, and then definitely I was motivated to learn and serve our customers. So, to me, staying relevant is most important, and, luckily, I was able to stay relevant.


And second definitely is your coworkers, right? Like, yeah, I...when you are at a place working for so long, you develop those relationships, you know, strong working relationships. And the company, the place, it becomes your home away from home. It becomes your safe place, right? So, definitely, I mean, you know, staying relevant and building strong relationships. I have many friends at work who I can reach out to any time. So, that's obviously...those are the two main things that kept me going through these reorgs and why I'm still here.


MIKE: Well, you know, you're the, like, the face of RacPad now, right [laughs]? It's your ba...[laughter] Like, everybody knows that's your thing, and you've seen that project through and been willing, so kudos.


SEEMA: Thank you.


MIKE: So, that's a major undertaking for the business. You know, that drives all of, you know, like, kind of, like, everything that happens over that line of business, so it's a big deal.


SEEMA: Thank you.


MIKE: And you talked about...well, yeah, of course, it's just the truth. But [chuckles], you know, you talked about a couple of things, you know, being willing to make those...well, maybe more than a couple, but, you know, being willing to be stretched. You know, not seeing that change as a negative, but as a challenge, as an opportunity. And you talked about getting the support from the people around you, and then the informal support of the people who you just like working with is what got you through. Seems like we always come down to the people, and that's what you latched onto.


SEEMA: Yeah. Just to add to your last point, as there is a saying that, you know, it always takes a village to raise a child, right? So, I believe in that. Definitely, like I said, you know, I have twin girls. We had to get a lot of help raising them. But I feel same applies in our professional life as well. You know, we have to have that village or community, right? And that community can be your peers, your mentors, your leadership, your fellow coworkers, and people who are reporting to you, your own team.


You have to have that community, you know, who you can reach out for any type of emotional support in tough times, like, tough times meaning when you are going through change, reorg, or even a tight timeline, right? I mean, I can tell you guys from my experience that last year when we were under aggressive timelines for RacPad Mexico rollout, I mean, definitely I had to reach out to people just to sometimes vent out, you know, and sometimes to seek help, you know, or seek advice.


So, definitely people having those friendly relationships and just being kind to each other and supportive, that means a lot because when we are going through change or reorg, I mean, we don't realize sometimes everybody is going through their own kind of battle. Some people can share; some people they do not. And, you know, but we have to be really kind and supportive and, you know, just lean on each other basically.


MIKE: Oh, that's fantastic. Thank you. So, we've got a few of us here. Oh, you know, I didn't introduce the whole group. I talked about Seema.


SEEMA: Oh yeah.


MIKE: We've also got Eddy, Kyle, Dave, Vivian, Thomas, Ramses, and Justin with us today. And what do you all think? What are your thoughts, either triggered by what Seema is saying, or your thoughts about dealing with change in general? So, Seema is really focused on that village that you use to get through. What's your experience?


DAVE: Love that. I love that. The thing that is rattling around my brain, you were talking about sleeping in weird places. And this is going to be...I'll throw a stake way out far, and then I promise I'll connect it.


MIKE: [laughs]


DAVE: Which is you guys will always hear me talking about what is the trade-off? I very rarely say, "This is good," or "This is bad." I want to know what the trade-off is. What are we getting out of it? All the time. Never say, "Always do this feature," or "Never do software this way." It's like, what do you get out of it? There's no such thing as a side effect. There's only effects. What do you want? Okay, where am I going with this?


My dad grew up in Lehi, just a block away from where the Thai House restaurant is—for those of you who know that—on Main Street, about 100 yards from the train tracks. And freight trains, cargo trains would go through every hour all night long. And, like, it's...at that distance, you know, 40 bazillion tons of coal being hauled up to the refineries, it's like a Richter 7 earthquake just every single time. Like, things would rattle off the walls. And the thing that blew me away was my dad telling me...I'm, like, "How did you get to sleep?" And he says, "Eh, you'd be surprised what you can get used to." And then he cocked his head, and he said, "Actually, I would wake up if the train was late." Which literally what he had gotten used to was the house is supposed to be shaking right now.


Now, you can say the house rattling around keeping you from sleep, that's bad. You shouldn't have that. You shouldn't have to...well, why is it bad? It's like, industry is happening; civilization is happening at scale. It has an effect right here. And my dad just adapted by, "Well, okay fine," right?


So, then we fast-forward to, like, organizational change, and somebody comes in and says, "Oh, we're going to do Scrum," you know, for, like, the seventh time in three years or whatever. It's just [chuckles] like, "Oh, no, da, da, da," right [chuckles]? "Oh, we're going to do this, or we're going to try this, or we're going to do this other thing." And sometimes you're like, oh, this is dumb, and I don't want to do this, or, you know, this software is ridiculous, or the way this is built is wrong. Okay, but what's it buying us? What is the trade-off, right? And some of the trade-off is faith. It's like, we're hoping that this will fix some things that we've got, but we definitely are addressing some concerns.


We've had some organizational changes here at Acima based on some budgeting problems that we had. And you can tell that some of it is people who their primary motivation is let's never have a budgeting problem again, right? It's we just don't want that to happen. Unfortunately, the engineering team, we're now a little bit overscheduled and a little bit...you know, it's because of that, right? It's like, we're over-monitoring. Okay, fine. But it keeps the company afloat. It keeps us in business, and I like having a job. I love it when my paycheck clears every Friday.


So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm going with that: what is the change? What are the effects? If we can step back from good and evil or from this is bad, or this is wonderful, you can kind of step back from fearing change to saying, "Okay, I have curiosity and wonder about what this change is going to bring. Tell me what it is."


I watched Scrum burn out in 6 different organizations over 10 years. And at the job prior to this one, they announced Scrum, and they're like, "What does Scrum mean to us?" And I say, "It means we're losing an entire day to meetings every sprint." And they're like, "No, no, we're not." And then about three months later [laughter], they're like, "Dave, you called it." And I'm like, "Yeah, okay."


But then they shipped us off to Scrum training. And they actually said, "This is why it all connects." And I'm not a stand for Scrum. I don't get paid by them at all, and I don't particularly like it as a particular practice. But the basic principles of how things connect together, Scrum just...it codifies it and puts some ceremony around it to deliver those things.


If you worship the ceremony, you're going to end up with the same problems that Scrum has always had. But if you pursue the principles behind it...and that's where the wonder and the curiosity gets you. What is this change bringing us, and how do we get there from here?


MIKE: I actually wanted to latch onto something you said. I love what you said about stepping back, being kind of a dispassionate observer, like, oh, you know, what can I learn from this? There's always something to learn. But also, you know, like, what's the good? What's the bad here? Or, you know, what can I get from this, and how can we make…


Like you say, if you go back to the principle, if you go back to the principle, maybe there's something good here. Well, that goes a long way also in collaborating with other people, people who are going to come in and introduce change in your organization: whether it's the new person, whether it's an intern coming in and changing your daily schedule, or, you know, a new executive coming in and pushing some sweeping change.


And the knee-jerk reaction, "Well, this is stupid," gets you nothing [laughs]. You maybe say your frustration, and you're still frustrated. But if you take that kind of attitude...I've been thinking a lot about this lately, you know, what's the intent here? And how can I take my experience and what I know about how things work and take their intent and try to come up with a compromise? How can I bridge this? Because then it's an engineering problem.


You know, how can I solve this? How can I work this out with this person who's presumably acting in good faith? Because I think usually people are. You know, they're trying to make things right, trying to make things better. How can I collaborate with them and find shared common ground? Because we're both trying to make the company stay afloat, right? And succeed, even grow. How can we align here?


And, usually, if you understand where they're coming from, you can talk about...it's like, "Oh, I know that you want to have this be more customer-centric, so that's why you're introducing these changes. I like that, too. That's something that really matters to me. And I see that, you know, you're wanting to, you know, do policy X. You're wanting to change the way that we're doing sprint ceremonies. Okay, why are you wanting that?" And if they can give me the why, then we can usually find common ground, and maybe I'm not even going to agree, right?


There's probably a lot of things I'm not going to agree with. I've had kind of a similar experience with Scrum. Like, yeah, there's some good parts and some less good parts, but I know that people are trying to make it work. And, usually, if you're willing to act in good faith and say, "Well, I'll play with you. I'll do this," then people will reciprocate, and you can come to a good spot of common ground. And that helps a lot rather than just living with the frustration and resentment.


VIVIAN: I'll throw my 2 cents in there, since we're talking about change. As an intern, I came in kind of in a place where the entire system that I was going to come into was change. There was no established baseline. There was no, "I'm used to this, and this is how I like doing things." It is, "I'm going to walk in on the first day. I'm going to get introduced to my mentor. He's going to explain to me what we're going to be doing this summer, and then I'm just going to do it." Like, on one hand, it is an immense amount of change, and on the other hand, there was nothing holding me to my old structure before that.


And so, it was very much a situation where I was just learning by asking constant questions and figuring out why other people do the things that they do. And that is one of those things that immediately started to build my trust in the people around me and in the organization in general to allow me to understand the reasons behind each of the things.


As I kind of gained more experience and interacted with people that had both frustrations and things that they liked about how the organization runs, I see the decisions that are being made. I kind of start to understand why the decisions are being made, which builds a lot of trust for me. But now as I've gotten, like, a little more settled, and I'm coming back on Monday to, like, keep working and joining a new team, I'm terrified of the change. 


Because even though it's only been two months that I've been here, now that I'm starting a new position and everything is changing, like, all of the things that I've learned and, like, gotten used to interacting with my mentor, so on and so forth, are suddenly shifting and needing to basically go in trying to be that newborn baby that doesn't know anything, but also have the experience to be able to apply that into my job has been a real mental challenge.


But it is helped a lot by the trust that I have in the people around me, knowing that they have, like, Mike, what you were saying, the best intentions in mind, and are always trying to do what is, at the very least, the best for the organization, and I believe, usually, the best for me as well.


MIKE: Yeah. One thing we didn't tell you, Vivian, is on your first day full time, we send you to spend your first three months to work down in the mines below the building.


VIVIAN: Oh okay. I'll [inaudible 23:39] yeah.


DAVE: There's a thing called bait and switch. You're going to want to Google [laughter] that [laughter].


JORDAN: The young ones yearn for the mines [laughter].


DAVE: Yes, they do [laughs]. But Mike made the comment about, like, if you dig your heels in, nothing good comes from that. And I'm going to resist that even just a little teeny, tiny bit. We've watched --


MIKE: Dig your heels in?


DAVE: Yeah, I'm going to dig my heels a little bit. No, there is value in skepticism, and if you've got an organization that's going...I'm dangerously close to saying collaboration isn't always great [laughs]. Although Eddy can tell you, I did hang up on the bullpen call today because I wasn't getting my work done, and I was very frustrated. I was like, "You guys are getting me tied up. I got to..." So, I hung up on them. But we had some decisions that were paralyzing the merchant portal team in architecture.


And, Mike, when you stepped up and Andy came in to be our manager, he kind of threw his weight around a little bit, and he just like, "No, we're just doing this." And I was like, "But wait, wait, wait, wait." And the thing is, is that a land war that had been going on the team for two years just ended in that moment, and half of us weren't happy. But half of us were going to be unhappy no matter what. And so, slicing that off very, very quickly was powerfully useful.


I tell the kids that come to skills clinic that what is the value...You guys can't see it on the...people won't be able to see this, but on camera, I've got a thing that I literally etched into Purpleheart and lacquered it. And it just says, "Are you mad at AI? Why though?" Because when you crash out at the AI, you're just telling yourself about yourself, right? You're getting mad at a machine.


And I've since come to answer that question. If you get mad at the AI, it lowers its temperature. And it makes it a little less flighty, a little more conservative, a little bit more risk-averse. By the same token, if you tell, you know, Claude or Gemini, "You're doing great; I love this. More of this," it will raise the temperature, and it will get more creative, and it will branch out more and go look for more things.


I'm not saying you should weaponize this against other people, or even particularly against AI, but even the concept of, like, [inaudible 25:46] scale versus should I dig in, like, there's so much clarity you can get by digging in as long as you're right before you made the decision. If you're trying to explore and find the decision, then yeah, holding that creativity and wonder and acceptance is key.


MIKE: Just to call out, I think there's times that it's important to stand your ground.


DAVE: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.


MIKE: I also think that at every moment you are digging in your heels and fighting whatever comes along, you're not accomplishing things. You're just a, you know, a professional --


DAVE: Jerk [laughs]?


VIVIAN: Pain in the ass?


MIKE: A professional roadblock, right?


DAVE: A professional roadblock, yeah.


MIKE: And that's not a way to run your career. You choose the things that matter most. And there are things that are worth...you know, I've left a company before because of choices they were making, and with, you know, several people on my team because, no, not going to do that. And so, there are things worth taking a stand for. And whether or not, you know, the specific structure of your sprint ceremonies, I just don't think that that's the place to typically stand your ground. You know what? I can't [inaudible 26:54] do that.


DAVE: Yeah. That's not the hill I want to die on.


MIKE: Exactly.


SEEMA: Talking about the change, I know change is never easy. I have always resisted change, to be honest.


MIKE: [laughs]


SEEMA: It's, you know, as brain, obviously, we get used to the habits, right? I mean, that feels like a safe place, but change is here to stay, I mean, we all know that, right? And these days, I think, change is becoming even more frequent and harder. I mean, we see our friends, our coworkers, you know, getting impacted. So, it's not easy, but, like, a few things that I think I have learned recently to keep myself sane and to keep myself moving forward, you know, a couple of things, like, for example, keeping an open mind, right?


I have recently been reading this book. I think maybe you all might have already read it. It's The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins.


DAVE: Oh, I love that book. 


SEEMA: Yeah. So, basically...yeah. So, she says that, you know, let them, you know, let them take care of the things that you cannot control. Do not waste your energy fighting or overthinking or worrying about it. You have to find things that are under your control, you know? And once you are done thinking let them, you have to think about let me. Let me focus on things that I can control, right? What can I do to add value and help move the needle for the business while things are still settling in during these times, while we are going through reorgs or changes? Because change is here to stay. It doesn't matter how much we resist, right?


So, this is a great book. I mean, it doesn't matter, it's professional life or personal life, The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. So, like I said, even I resist change, but you know, this book, I have learned a lot from this one.


And then there is another, you know, I think most of you might already know Simon Sinek, right? He is a motivational speaker. I like to listen to him. And then I really like the way he talks about, like, all of us, we have to find our why, right? So, if we find what keeps us, what makes us happy, what keeps us moving forward, what motivates us, and we focus on that thing, it will automatically bring positivity in our life. We'll start feeling that sense of ownership and belonging. And once we do that, it will shift our focus from worrying to feeling accomplished.


So, those are the two things that I have been, you know, kind of trying to practice these days. And there is one last thing that I really like, and then that's, again, by Mel Robbins. That's basically, you know, practicing gratitude. Be more thankful. So, she says that we should start our day, like, in the morning, you know, just kind of thinking about few things that we have accomplished recently, right? Small wins.


Don't focus on big wins. Don't wait for any big projects or, you know, any big wins that, hey, then I'll be happy. But, like, try to find happiness in the small, small wins. And I think that has helped me tremendously as well. Like, I start my day saying, "Okay, I'm the best. I can do it. I have done it," you know? So, that kind of, you know, wires your brain to start thinking positive.


So, those are a couple of things that has really kind of helped me stay positive and kind of accept things as we are going through these changes and kind of, you know, not worrying about things that are outside of our control.


MIKE: I love what you said about gratitude. We should maybe dig into that a little bit. One other thing I wanted to catch before we move on, though. You don't think that technology is slowing down [laughs]?


SEEMA: It's not slowing down. It's changing rapidly.


MIKE: Exactly [laughs].


SEEMA: I mean, talking about AI. Yeah. So, it's --


MIKE: I...that was a [inaudible 30:59][laughs]


SEEMA: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, things are changing so fast, I mean, especially in the age of AI. I mean, you go to LinkedIn, and you see everybody posting about what they're doing, new tools every single day. And that's why sometimes you feel overwhelmed, right? That's why, I think, it becomes even more important that we should look at celebrating, like, small wins in the day-to-day life, right? You know, what did you...did you do something to help your fellow coworker, help a customer, you know? And celebrate that, I mean, small wins, right? Because, obviously, nobody is perfect. Like, we all have things to learn, but, I guess, [inaudible 31:37] from each other and be patient. We can do that.


VIVIAN: I have a couple of things. First, I'd like to push back. I do think that I'm perfect, but that's just me.


SEEMA: [laughs]


VIVIAN: I know the rest of you guys can't live up to that standard, but...


SEEMA: [laughs] No, I'm nearly perfect as well, Vivian.


VIVIAN: Very nice. Very nice. [crosstalk 31:56] I'm glad to have someone else on our level.


SEEMA: Awesome.


DAVE: Wow. She's changed now that she's got her offer letter [laughter].


VIVIAN: Yeah, this is the new me [laughs].


DAVE: I'm going to go home and Google bait and switch [laughter].


VIVIAN: As you should. Yeah, it's a new concept. I really loved what you were saying about...what you and Mike were saying about gratitude. And I just...I wanted to point out something that I've noticed about especially, like, really good workers, and especially engineers, are often extremely, extremely opinionated about a very few specific things.


They have one to three things that they really hold, like, near and dear to their heart. Maybe it's the style of programming that they like. Maybe it's a specific software that they really, really like to use, and they invest all their time in. Maybe it's using split keyboards and ergonomic mice. I don't know what it is, but all of these, like, super incredible engineers and super incredible workers have these little kind of almost pet projects that they attach themselves to.


And, at least from my observation, when they are capable of holding onto these things and letting the rest of the things be things that they just discuss and go where other people want to guide things, they're able to fit into different organizations and work well with others, but still hold onto the skills and capabilities that make them great at what they do.


It's as soon as these engineers start to hold onto everything, like you were talking about, they become roadblocks, and they don't do these things. But if they don't have these little pieces that they hold onto, like, they're Vim user, and they cannot ever do anything that doesn't have Vim key bindings, as long as they have that to hold onto, they get to experience the joy of using the things that they love. And, like you were saying, they get to, like, almost be grateful of the things that they love doing, and maybe that's writing code by hand, or maybe it's prompting an AI, or maybe it's using Vim motions in whatever application they use. But that kind of allows them to continue to upskill while being adaptable because they have a thing to continuously hold onto and be grateful for.


DAVE: Okay, she can stay [laughter].


MIKE: The minds will humble her anyway [laughs].


VIVIAN: I, especially going through my internship, but as I'm, like, just kind of launching my career, despite my enormous ego, I'm really trying to learn as much as I can from all of, like, the incredible engineers around me, and take, like, bits and pieces of each of what makes them great at what they do so that I can continue to get better as an engineer.


So, it's just been something that has been very on my mind, and I feel has been very helpful as I've needed to adapt to a lot of change because it allows me to kind of see the bits and pieces that make other people great. And so, I can trust that their bits and pieces are valuable, if that makes sense.


JORDAN: So, I do have a comment on corporate change. One company I was working for, after you guys, got acquired by a large bank. And this large bank had a lot of rules and procedures that they dictated that we follow. And it was very frustrating at times because it was, like, all of these rules and procedures probably don't apply to this smaller company that was a startup. And the startup was, you know, successful. That's one of the reasons why they got bought out. But this larger bank had many, many arcane rules around, you know, software engineering that made it difficult, well, software engineering and specifically cybersecurity, that made it difficult to, like, progress, and it was very, very slow.


And, you know, dealing with that kind of change was kind of frustrating. Realistically, we just had to accept it or leave the company. It was nice in some ways because we were paid well [laughs]. But it was bad because it was, like, you know, trying to make change at the larger corporate level just couldn't happen.


And so, what we had to do, or what I had to do, was dive into, like, the reasons why all of these little things, you know, why they existed, and I still disliked a lot of them. But some of them I got to the point where I was like, "Oh, okay, I can see why that's useful." And you really had to dig in to find out what the cause is and do the research.


And also, if they come in with the attitude, they being the corporate overlords, come in with the attitude of, "You will do this," and not give a reason why, that makes a lot of difference in terms of, like, how the people receiving it, the message that they receive. So, if you ever find yourself in the position of, you know, having to dictate to people the way things should be, if you aren't sympathizing with them or, you know, if you aren't looking at it from the way that they see it, you're not going to have a happy workforce, so...


MIKE: I couldn't agree more. You're reminding me of a meeting I was in. Somebody was introducing change and didn't give any reason why, just saying, "This is what we're going to do." And, actually, they gave a little bit of reason why, and the other people in the meeting gave really strong explanations about why that explanation didn't hold water at all. It wasn't applicable, and none of the answers landed. It was just like, "I'm not hearing it. This is how it's going to be." And I have never seen people get so upset [laughs]. I think it's the worst meeting I've been in all my life. The people were so, so upset. Same topic --


DAVE: Because of the change or because they weren't being listened to?


MIKE: Because they weren't being listened to. The exact same thing with the reason why and with listening was presented a week later, and there was basically no objection at all. Because people were told, "This is why we're doing this. And it's going to be a little frustrating. You know, there's going to be some stuff we're going to have to work through here, but this is why we're doing it. Please let us know what you think." And it landed fine. That why makes such a difference. And, you know, the first meeting was given with good intent, right? Just the delivery didn't land because people didn't hear the why. People weren't being listened to. It makes all of the difference.


SEEMA: Yeah, I mean, that's a great point, Mike, and, I think, in all the, you know, reorgs or changes, like, David mentioned the Scrum, I mean, you know, as an example, but, I think, change management is most important. That's the key. You know, the top leadership, they have to provide you that clarity, and there has to be a way, a process established, so that everybody can provide their feedback.


Definitely, I mean, some of it, you know, might not be, you know, worth taking action, but, you know, there has to be a way that you should be able to provide your feedback to the top leadership, and they should listen to you. That's the key. That's what I feel like.


JORDAN: Yeah. In my experience, you could usually, like...I've been in a bunch of different companies where a new director comes in to a group and dictates, "This is the way it's going to be. I'm coming in and making these changes, and you guys just trust me, bro [laughs]," or something to that effect. Or not even "Trust me, bro," he's just, like, you know, they would just come in and make these changes. And we would, you know, come back from those types of meetings and look at each other and be like, "Okay, how long do you think this director's going to last [laughter]?" Usually, it was, like, less than a year with the directors that came in with, you know, with that type of attitude.


MIKE: I think, to Dave's point earlier, decisive is fine. Decisive can be great if you are listening and willing to explain your justifications. And sometimes the justification is, you know what? You're both right. There's really not a perfect answer here. We just need to pick a side, and so I'm going to pick this side here, and we're going to run with it. And people are okay with that [chuckles] because they understand that.


You know, we get it; we've got to pick a side. There is no perfect answer. It's fine, and we'll be fine. And if, you know, a year from now we decide, you know what? We learned from this, and the other side was better, we can make a change. Like, the decisiveness is fine if you're open to that feedback, and you are willing to explain your justifications and be a human being, engage with people, be vulnerable.


DAVE: The thing that, I think, is interesting about it is Mark Twain famously said, "It has been my experience that people who are brutally honest tend to enjoy the brutality as much as the honesty." So, I hold that in one hand. These are the people that dig in or just, you know, they get off on the power trip, right? That's where they're getting their itch scratched.


On the other hand, I tried to Google who it was that untied the Gordian knot. I didn't realize it was a real person. It was Alexander the Great. There was an oracle who said that whoever could untie this really complicated knot tied to an ox cart would rule all of Asia, and Alexander walked in, drew his sword, and sliced the knot in half. I don't know if that's a true story or if it's apocryphal, but I love it, and you can see there's utility. There's time for swift, sharp action, and there's time for...you don't have to be a jerk about it, right? It's, don't be nice; be kind, I think is a good watchword there.


VIVIAN: Okay, I'm curious. I mean, basically, all of the people that I'm talking to have experienced a lot more organizational change than I have. So, how, as someone who may have change, like, forced upon them, essentially, do you adapt and deal with those different leadership styles?


Because as much as I can say we all want to follow this perfect advice that Seema you've given about, like, essentially understanding, and listening, and all of these things, not every leader is like that. So, if you encounter a leader that isn't or a leader that is, how do you adapt to that change, and how do you approach things differently? Is that where you start to stick your heels in the ground, and if things aren't going how you feel they should go you leave? Or, like, what is kind of the calculus there?


DAVE: I generally go by the rule of once you get above about two levels up on the org chart, it is easier for an executive to solve me than it is for them to solve the problems I'm having [laughter]. So, if I can take it to my team lead or if I can take it up to...like, I'll go as high as Andy. But if I'm banging on the door of somebody at Upbound saying, "I need an accommodation," or, "I need this," or, "I need you to solve this problem," and it's something that should have been solved kind of at the ground level, but they've dug...


It's like, I like my paycheck clearing, and that's...if we have a why, we can bear with almost any how. That's a nihilistic answer, which is great because that quote is actually from Nietzsche. But at the same time, embrace what you can change. Just because somebody's three levels up the org chart doesn't mean you can't persuade and get their ear.


Balaji, our new CTO, is a breath of wonderful fresh air. He's listening all the way up and down. It's absolutely delightful to have him on board and to feel like, "Hey, I could come up to this person and say, 'Hey, what about this?'" I really like that. Might not get my way, but I feel like I would be heard, and I like that.


SEEMA: Yeah. And to add to what David mentioned, Vivian, to answer your question, I mean, Mike, Balaji, and everybody in the leadership, they have scheduled, you know, as an example here, the change that we are going through, right? We have had several meetings where we got to ask the questions, you know, for clarity, for transparency, right? And Mike and Balaji and others in the leadership they have been very honest about it, right?


But at the end of the day, like, change is here to stay, right? That's why, like I mentioned earlier, like, at least what has helped me, you know, focus on things that you can control. That's it, right? I mean, outside of your control, we shouldn't overthink. And I know I do it all the time. I am an overthinker. I worry; I stress out. You know, I'm kind of, like, an emotional person, but that's what hurts me. That's what I have learned that I should just be focusing on what I can control.


Definitely, I mean, I need to share my feedback or my perspective with the leadership. But, like David mentioned, right, not every time you'll be able to change, you know, what you are saying. And sometimes, you know, that might not be right, like, from growth perspective or the company's overall vision perspective, right? That's where we need to find our why. And we need to stay relevant so that our goals, our purpose is aligned with what the company's overall vision is. And sometimes it kind of takes some time for all of us to kind of understand and digest that, and that's why change is hard. 


JORDAN: I was going to give you, like, an example of what happened, like, it was literally my first real programming job out of college. A director came in; nobody liked him. The engineering manager directly beneath the director was very well-liked, and everybody loved him. And he was very vocal about everybody's dislike for this director. That went on for about four months, and he left, and then shortly thereafter, probably half the engineering org left. And after that, I was one of those ones that left as well.


And just to give you, like, the other side of this, if you...and, you know, play devil's advocate, if you can't effectuate change in your organization, and what you can do is effectuate change in yourself, make sure your resume is up to date, and start looking [laughs]. And just to be frank, when I left that job, I more than doubled my income, and it was nuts. But I would not have left that job if not for that bad director and because the mission of the company was really good.


But yeah, you need to continually think about yourself and your career. And if you are in a place where you feel like your leadership isn't up to snuff, if you are ready to go on and look for elsewhere, have confidence in yourself and be ready to make that step.


I mean, all of us have probably been at that point where we, you know, we decide to switch jobs for whatever reason. And this could be that reason if the change in the organization is too great for you to stay there.


DAVE: I've been fortunate to have a wife that I've come home on two or three occasions where I'm like, "I quit my job today." And the first time, she was very distressed. And then I explained to her why, and she was like, "Okay. Yeah, that makes sense." And the second time she was like, "Uh, it was kind of about time." And the next job I got was a $20,000 pay rise. And she's like, "I wish you'd quit sooner."


And closer to 10 years ago, I started a job. I was there for one day, and on the way...and we carpooled home, and on the way home from that job, I told Liz, "I think I'm going to quit my job tomorrow." And she said, "Okay." And that's a terrible skill to have taught your wife [laughter]. But yeah, it's like, sometimes you clear your paycheck, and sometimes you clear your conscience. And as long as you're holding by your principles, you can bear with a lot of terrible house, right? It's if everything was easy, somebody else would be doing it.


MIKE: I was thinking something along the lines of what you're saying there, Dave. Most companies are not Enron, right [chuckles], where they're doing something clearly wrong, but occasionally they are. You know, I quit a place…I don't know if I mentioned it earlier in the call or if it was in the pre-call; I've quit a place before where it was clearly sketchy.


This was bad business model. I'm sure that legal action was taken against them. Me and, like, I think, all of the engineering team left except for one [chuckles]. And then he left, like, two months later because it was hard for him to get another job immediately, not because of his skills but because he had some special needs that made it hard for travel. 


DAVE: Sometimes you got to keep health insurance going or something, yeah.


MIKE: So, you know, there's times, yeah, you get out. Usually though, again, if it's a debate over how Scrum gets implemented, that's not really a question of values. And so, I think, you need to ask yourself, you know, is this something that is really an issue of values, or can I...you know, is there a reasonable counterpoint where I can see somebody else's perspective here? Work with it. If it's reasonable to work through, then it's probably worth doing it.


Now, again, there's times it's...and sometimes just for your career, sure, it's the right thing to go. But, you know, you've...I think you have to look at that. Is this something that I'm going to have a hard time sleeping at night over, or is this just me being grumpy?


DAVE: It's worth studying and honoring your own answer to...if you give it your thought and, you know, you can respect your own answer to that. Zach, who's frequently on the call, I've worked with him on the data team. He was my boss, and he would tell me often, he says, "You never quit a job. You quit your boss."


SEEMA: Oh yeah. I couldn't agree more with that.


DAVE: I tease him about it that because, two months later, I transferred back to engineering. And I keep telling him, "I did it just to get away from you."


SEEMA: I mean, that is so true, David, what you said, right? I mean, the other day I was reading an article on LinkedIn, and that's exactly what they were saying, right? Like, for example, our company CEO or even our CTO, you know, they have their own vision, right? And we go...everybody gets excited, obviously, you know, we're doing new things and growth and things like that.


But, ultimately, at the end of the day, I feel like it's your immediate, I guess, manager or your boss and the team that you work with. You know, you work, like, 8 to 10 hours a day. You have to make sure...and that's why, Vivian, earlier I made that point that you have to make sure that you are staying relevant, right, and you find your why. And you have to make sure that you are motivated; you are driven; you are adding value day in, day out.


And to Justin's point, I mean, if you can't accept it, you know, you can go somewhere else. But what's the guarantee that you won't go through change there, right? So, maybe we might as well just stay here, wait for some time, right, as an example, right, and, you know, learn, accept, and then see how it goes. You know, that's what I have always done, you know. As long as I am getting to learn, I'm growing, you know, in my career, I'm good.


DAVE: Your job is part of your career.


JORDAN: What came to mind while you were speaking was, if you are changing jobs every year, the problem may not be the jobs; it may be you [laughter].


SEEMA: Maybe it's just your mindset, right?


JORDAN: Yeah, maybe your mindset. So, always be thinking about that.


DAVE: Or maybe freelancing might be for you [laughter].


SEEMA: Well, that's what they say that everybody, you know, we should all have kind of a hobby on the side, like, a second...you can say it like second job, but not from kind of a paycheck perspective, but we should all of us...I mean, I don't, but then that's what, like, I feel like maybe I need to, you know, develop a second hobby or second job, you know, that keeps you happy.


DAVE: I got that advice too late [laughter]. I was all in on my vocation. And I'm like, "No, this just supports my hobbies [laughter]."  Or the other way around, my hobbies support my job [laughter].


SEEMA: I like that [inaudible 51:37]


MIKE: We could probably dig into that hobby thing and do a whole episode on that. I'm tempted, but no. Maybe let's save that for another time because that's a --


DAVE: I would like to do an entire episode on that, because I had lunch with our local team and with Vivian and Jordan. And Vivian is every bit as much of a dilettante as we could ever possibly want on the team [laughter]. She's done everything, and I love that. Kindred spirit. I would love to just spend a whole show on that.


VIVIAN: I mean, two things. One, I love being able to ask a question and just turn the podcast into the Advice for Vivian podcast. It's been great. I can't wait to keep that up.


And two, yeah, if we spend a whole podcast, like, glazing me for just having hobbies [laughter], I'm not going to complain about that, but [laughter] --


MIKE: I would say that's a good place to tie things up. You know, we've talked about, you know, how do you deal with change? And we've talked about a few things. You know, it's being gentle and kind, but we actually hit on some really, honestly, some kind of challenging things, like, suck it up, right [laughs]? But present it differently.


You know, we said you have to prioritize. What do you actually care about? And sometimes that answer is, "I care enough that, no, I can't be here anymore." But, usually, that answer is probably not...that's probably not so. The answer is, "I can deal with this. I can work with this. I can grow, and this is a learning opportunity. And, you know, I can reevaluate this later, you know, after we've made some choices." And that collaboration, building that community, building that village, and being a contributor rather than just the guy standing in the road and blocking everybody's way really makes a difference.


And, like I mentioned earlier, it seems like it always comes down to the human element when we dig into these issues. Leaning on your team, working together, makes a tremendous difference. This is a social endeavor. And if you can have that group of friends that you're working with, you can usually get through it.


Until next time on the Acima Development Podcast.