MIKE: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Acima Development Podcast. I'm Mike, and I'm hosting again today. With me, we have Dave. DAVE: Hello. MIKE: We've got Will Archer. WILL: Hello. MIKE: We've got Kyle. MIKE: And joining us for the first time, we have Elishia Williams. And Elishia is going to kind of be the star of the show today [laughter]. We brought her in to talk. She's actually my boss and [chuckles] also leads up engineering here at...not just Acima, but at Upbound. And I think that she has a lot of history and things that we'd like to ask her to share that we think could be of value. So, Elishia, I want us to begin. Often, the host tells a story, but I'd like to ask you, are there any stories from your career that you'd like to share - some compelling, you know, formative story you'd like to share to set the theme for our podcast today? ELISHIA: Well, first of all, thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here. And I've heard a lot about the podcast, so now I get to participate in it in this way. From a story perspective, I don't know, there's probably a lot of stories, but the one that comes to mind, especially when I think about kind of what you've shared we're going to talk about today for the most part, is really just how I got here. You know, it kind of starts back quite some time. And when I think about technology, right, I started off with a passion in technology as a child. So, I think a lot of people have that experience when they're growing up, and they're inquisitive about things and things like that. But I don't know that that was it, or maybe someone saw that. But my passion began when my dad introduced me to technology. And so, he actually gave me my first technical job. What I will say is, I was the person that had to maintain our home computer. Now, that was, of course, at a time when many did not have a home computer. And so, I'm not exactly sure how important my job was, but I sure thought it was at the time. And so, essentially, I had to run some application, and I'd love to remember what the name of it was, but I had to run an application that compressed and cleaned the files on our machine. And he had me do this multiple times a week. And so, I took that extremely seriously, because, of course, it was my dad, and it's what he asked me to do. And it kind of gave me some insight into what this thing was in our home that he brought to us. And so, to this day, again, I'm not sure how meaningful that was from a technical perspective. But it sure gave me my first sense of, I guess, technical responsibility. And so, I think from that point on, I pretty much knew what my career was going to be. I always knew that I was going to do something in technology. He also had us programming quite a bit as younger people. And so, I knew it would be software engineering. And so, that's kind of how I got here. MIKE: But there's probably a lot we could dig into in that story about [laughter] the value of mentorship and somebody who says, "Hey, you know, why don't you do this?" and how much influence that can have on your career. ELISHIA: Absolutely. It's a vivid memory for me, even that many years later [laughs]. WILL: My dad did the same thing. He bought a computer store. And then I was free labor [laughter], and he would just drop me off there, and be like, "All right, well, listen, I got all these computers, so..." ELISHIA: [laughs] Do something. WILL: Figure it out. ELISHIA: Absolutely. But it definitely...there was definitely a sense of pride when I ran those applications, and everything turned out great. And so, yeah, I don't know, I have four sisters, and each of us had some kind of job, but that was mine. MIKE: Nice. Well, and that's actually a good segue. You mentioned four sisters. Software engineering, it's long been a male-dominated industry, not always, but for the last -- ELISHIA: Pretty much, yeah [laughs]. MIKE: 40-plus years. So, what would you say to other women or others who find themselves minority in the software industry? ELISHIA: Hmm. So, that's, I mean, that's a good one. You know, I tell people, no matter who you are, what you're doing, just walk with confidence, knowing that you're in that place because you chose the field, and you're qualified to do it. I think if you're doing what you love to do, focusing on being the minority, or anyone else's differences, you kind of don't really have time for that to be your focus. And so, for me, I knew what I was getting into, and I decided to go to school for computer science. I looked at my classes. That was a good indication of what [chuckles] corporate America would look like at that point, right? And so, I mean, honestly, I learned a long time ago to just make sure I had individual experiences with everyone that I met. And so, I try to stay away from generalizations that even make me have to think about, oh, you're the this or the that. It's more about we're all here for something common. And so, when I think about how I feel on a day-to-day basis, I don't feel out of place. I've never felt out of place in this role, in this career. I wish I...no, I don't wish I could, but I try to think about, has there been a point where I walked on the scene, and I was like, I shouldn't be here? And I haven't had that. I just haven't. And I know that that's not everyone, by the way, because I talk to a lot of people. But that's been my life [laughs]. And so, I've only been in technology my entire career. And I'm comfortable in that setting, which makes me know that I'm in the right place. MIKE: I imagine that confidence goes a long way. ELISHIA: Oh, yeah [laughs]. Well, and, by the way, that's probably one of the things I hear the most, right? I go to a good bit of conferences, just walking in with confidence and being comfortable in the settings that I'm in. You know, a lot of people...I guess this is where some people think about, like, imposter syndrome. And I think no matter if you're a woman or you're a man, everybody could have it, right, if you just think you're somewhere that you've maybe, you know, gotten in too big for your britches. But it's just something that, you know, I try to, for me, I'm a lifelong learner. And I tell my kids, if you're nervous, you probably didn't prepare much. And so, for me, I just try to stay prepared. I try to work hard. I try to stay studied up. And it's what I've done for a while. That doesn't mean I don't get nervous, or, you know, I'm starting something new, and I wonder how it's going to go. But I will say, when it's time to go, then I have to put all that aside. So, I don't really dwell on it. I can think of walking in my first engineering job as a young 20-something. And I remember the company I started working for, most of the people there were no less than 10 years tenure. So, you got me, and then you got someone that's probably 40 years my senior at that point, right? And that was very different. But even in that, I, you know, I had done some internships. I'd done things that allowed me to see the world. And I think that really helped me to walk in. And I've always been more of a people-oriented person. So, once I get in, I tell people, I could probably talk to anyone. And so [laughs], then it's all good. But I remember this one person, I remember he, again, I was a young, young person. He's like, "What are you doing here [laughs]?" And so, some of my peers were like, "Oh, are you not offended?" I'm like, "No, I'm really not," because I know why I'm here. I went to school; I studied; I got the job [laughs]. And that was it, you know. But I try not to let, you know, those types of things be a personal thing for me. But, honestly, this person retired probably a year after I started. So, you got to kind of think about what he had seen in his life versus what I had seen in my life. And so, you know, sometimes you kind of have to just put your head where they their experience is, and it's not really personal to me. MIKE: Thank you. And that sounds like great advice to people who find themselves in the minority. What advice would you give to men in the industry, to flip the question around [laughs]? ELISHIA: The same [laughs]. MIKE: To the rest of us here on the call [laughter]. ELISHIA: I give men and women the same advice: show up; work hard, and deliver well. I think if you're asking, you know, hey, how do they, I guess, engage with minority or women in a field such as this? I mean, I really think it's, you know, treat people with the respect that you want to be treated with. Hopefully, there's not, you know, I’d say kick out the maybe misconceptions if there are any, and assume competence, right? There's no such thing as you code well for a girl, right? Like, that should not be a statement, okay [laughs]? So, I tell everyone the same thing, like, your credentials may be very similar to my credentials. And so, hopefully, we can both work well together and deliver well. MIKE: Thank you. Thank you. That's a very kind of personal line of questioning, so I appreciate [chuckles] you were willing to -- ELISHIA: No worries at all. I mean, it's a common topic, right, because it is a male-dominated field. But, again, after being in this field for so long, it's kind of the norm. I'm not sure what I would do in a field that was different, actually. Again, you know, if I go through in a technical career, I mean, you look at the classes, that's male-dominated as well. I do a lot of volunteering, you know, to try to add some of that, I guess, diversity of thought when you bring in, like, more females into exposure to technology and things like that. Even, like, I have a boy and a girl. And so, my girl has no interest in technology, but my boy is all in for technology. So, I don't know, and they watch me every day, so...[laughs] MIKE: That's --[laughs]. ELISHIA: It's individual interests. MIKE: Right. My family's probably switched. My daughter's probably a lot more interested in tech than my son, who's close to her age. My oldest is definitely technology interest -- ELISHIA: Yeah, yeah. I figured one would. I just wasn't sure, but she made that very clear. I remember when she said, "Mom, I don't know what you do, but I know I don't want to do it [laughter]." It's so funny, because I would take her to, like, there was many times when I first, like, when she was a little younger, they do, like, the Bring Your Kid to Work Day and things like that. And she sat through many engineering meetings, and that could be why, right? She has no idea what we're doing behind the scenes, but the meetings maybe would turn you off a little bit [laughs]. DAVE: I worked with someone 20 years ago who, in a meeting, I straight up...he's like, "What do you need?" And I said, "I need you." He was traveling a lot, and when he was in the office, everything went smoothly, and I could not tell why. I remember turning to him in front of the team saying, "I don't know what you do here [laughter], but I know I need you here doing it." ELISHIA: [laughs] Absolutely [laughs]. WILL: That was the biggest thing during COVID, right, during the pandemic, when everybody's working from home. So, like, I've worked remote, like, a lot, like, not always, but often. But, like, my wife, you know, she's a therapist, so she's off in the office because, you know...And so, she's been, like, exposed to, like, the blast radius of, like, the calls that I get put into. And she's just looking at me like [laughter], no, no, no, sir, no, sir [laughter]. I would rather talk to people about their trauma. ELISHIA: Talk to the people. [laughter] Absolutely [laughs]. MIKE: Hey, we have trauma in our conversations, let me tell you. ELISHIA: Oh, definitely [laughter]. WILL: Oh, man, yeah, yeah. MIKE: Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. So, Elishia, you've been in leadership for some time, I believe. I actually don't know. I don't know your full story. So, I'm curious, how did you get into leadership in software? You talked about getting into tech, you know, you're doing software development, but I haven't seen you writing code. ELISHIA: That's right. MIKE: Yeah, you've been doing leadership for a long time. ELISHIA: Yeah, absolutely. MIKE: So, how did you do that? ELISHIA: So -- MIKE: Yeah, go ahead, please. ELISHIA: So, I got into leadership...Honestly, it wasn't something that I was thinking about. When I decided what my career was going to be, the only thing I really thought about was being a software developer. And so, I didn't really look too far as to where that was going to go. I just knew that's what I wanted to do. But as I began to do it...and, honestly, back then, we weren't really doing Agile. I mean, we had a team, but it wasn't like...I was in a cubicle, and I was, like, just working. And there wasn't, like, all the stand-ups and things that people get where you're getting all this human interaction. But it was funny because, even then, I noticed I always had people at my cubicle. And so [laughs], I don't know how that happened. I wasn't like, you know, inviting, hey, come over here, and let's talk about this thing. But I started to realize how much I liked technology, but I also liked the people aspect of it. And that was just one thing that was impressed upon me as I started realizing that just in the workplace. And so, that's kind of how it started. I started taking on a couple of different leadership assignments. I had a really good mentor back then, where she kind of brought me along to some classes and things that she was doing because she was a manager at the time when I was an engineer. And I think it just kind of started to expose me of what else you could do in technology. You didn't have to totally leave the field, but you could do what you're doing but also lead people. What I will say is, I learn quickly, but as you so graciously said, I'm not coding on a regular basis. So, when I started realizing that when I moved into leadership, I started thinking to myself, well, wait a minute, how do you keep relevant in technology if you're not hands on keyboard anymore? So, it was at that point when I decided I was like, you know what, I'm either going to take a class or teach a class, like, I would do that twice a year. I would either take a class or teach a class. And this was more, like, take a continuing education class because technology is changing. So, what's the new languages that people are using? Or, you know, whatever it was, I would do that. Then I became, like, an adjunct instructor for a bit because I wanted to still stay close to the software. And, yeah, those are just things that I kept doing just to try to stay technical. But I was still fleeting. WILL: What was the last class? What's on your desk right now? What are you working on? ELISHIA: Oh, what's on my desk right now? You don't want to know probably. Mike knows what's on my desk [laughs]. We actually did this [laughter] book. That's what's on my desk right now. So, funny thing, Mike and team came down, and, you know, as we're trying to integrate these teams and make sure that we're doing all the best things for the company, we started doing this little study in our last strategy session on The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, and so that's why that's here, actually. We have one person that's not here. But, nonetheless, I mean, so what I will say, since COVID, I haven't done that as much. But what I did do over COVID is that I went back for a second master's degree [laughs]. WILL: Whoa. Okay. DAVE: Oh wow. You're not screwing around. ELISHIA: I mean, I just, I was like, you know what? They said I could do it in a year, and I'm going to do it in a year. And so, I applied and got in, and I enrolled in Baylor, and I got an MBA with a concentration in cybersecurity [laughs]. DAVE: That's awesome. WILL: All right, cool. ELISHIA: So, that's, I mean, but since then, I, you know, I'm kind of de-stressing, even since then because I kept working. But I just did school at, like, 3 and 4 in the morning. And so [laughs], I'm still in recovery, I think [laughs]. WILL: That's brutal. ELISHIA: Yeah, for sure. But, yeah, so I'll probably get back there again. I'm just not right now. WILL: You can do Advent of Code with us. It's coming up. ELISHIA: I guess I could. I could probably. WILL: It's coming up. ELISHIA: I probably could [laughs]. I told myself when I finished, because, look, again, lifelong learner; I love it. I really do. But I probably...when they were advertising it and they said, oh, you could do this in a year, I'm like, oh, I could do anything for a year. And then I was like, I told my family, I was like, okay, look, because...mind you, I have two teenagers. I have a husband. We’ve got a lot going on [laughs]. And so, I told them, I said, "Look, I'm going to go back to school. The commercials say I can do it in a year." [laughter] And they were like, "Are you sure?" WILL: During COVID. Oh my God. Oh my God. They got you good, man. Wow [laughter]. ELISHIA: Yeah, they did. But you know what? I did it in a year. WILL: Fair enough. ELISHIA: But then I didn't find out until, like, six months, where I was talking to my advisor, and she was like, "You know, only, like, 20% of the people actually do it in a year, right?" And I was like, "Oh, no, I didn't know that. You guys said [laughter] I could do it in a year, and I can't change it now [laughs]." So, yeah. WILL: That's brutal. DAVE: We didn’t say it would be easy. KYLE: So, with a timeframe like that, how did you manage your work-life balance, I mean, and school, right? ELISHIA: [inaudible 17:44] not. I probably didn't, actually [laughs]. KYLE: You probably didn't? [laughter] ELISHIA: If I'm really thinking back to that time, it's the reason...so, I would get up at 4:00 in the morning, and that's when I’d do my homework. Because what my goal was was to, okay, I've got everybody sacrificing this year of a project that I just took on during COVID. And so, I tried not to impact the family too much because I still had a full-time job. I was the leader then. I mean, we were all at home, but there was still a lot to do. I think we worked a lot more then, actually. And so, I tried to do school in the morning or at night. And then I would skip all of the work time, and I would skip all of, well, a few hours of the family time, and then I'd get right back to it. And so, it was tough. But once I, like, in order to do it in a year, you had to do two classes, I think, at a time. And those classes move pretty fast because they're, like, six weeks. So, it's a lot to do. But I couldn't extend it, so [laughs] that's what I did. WILL: I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine. That's savage. ELISHIA: That's why that's the last classes I've taken actually [laughter]. WILL: Yeah, right? That killed [inaudible 19:01] maybe next year. ELISHIA: I'm good for a minute. WILL: [inaudible 19:05] ELISHIA: But every now and then I think about, oh, I should. And then I'm like, no, you're not doing it [laughter]. WILL: I mean, PhD is next, right? PhD is next. ELISHIA: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I thought about that, and I was like, down girl. Not doing it. No [laughs]. MIKE: At some point the -- WILL: They say if you already have a masters you can do a PhD in two years. ELISHIA: Thank you, Will. WILL: That's what they say [laughter]. ELISHIA: That's what they say, yeah [laughter]. You know, and it's funny because I've got a friend that's doing that, actually. And then she got to her thesis, and, yeah, that two years comes a little longer at that point [laughter]. WILL: Yeah, yeah. Dissertation takes as long as it takes, yeah. Good luck. ELISHIA: Yeah. I mean, because then it has to be approved and all of those things. But that's not my path right now. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, and I will find some more...I'll probably get back into the whole, you know, hey, what am I going to go learn next? Continuing ed, take a few classes. I do go to conferences and things like that. But right now, I'm just, like, focused on the job. We've got a lot to do [laughs]. DAVE: Awesome. MIKE: Let's explore that a little bit. So, what exactly do you do? DAVE: Actually -- WILL: Oh [laughter]. DAVE: I've been poking Mike in the back channel. I got this question. I got this question. So, thank you, Mike, because that is how I often ask that question, and it is often a career-limiting move of just, so what do you do around here [laughter]? MIKE: Take that in the best possible context. Like, yes, we want to hear, like, what is -- ELISHIA: What is a day in the life [laughter]? MIKE: So, I used to be able to say two years ago, I write code. And you ask me now, I almost never write code. So, what exactly am I doing? So, that's really the [inaudible 20:48] of the question. ELISHIA: Yeah, you've almost become more of a champion at some point, right? I mean, you have to know what's happening. You have to be accountable and responsible in all the things for what's happening, but you're not the one making it happen [chuckles]. And so, I think it's like, you know, you kind of, you look at how can you rally your team together and make sure that you've got a pretty good direction that you're guiding them down. For me, I look at how am I surrounding myself with...and you know this: we talk about, you know, who are our key leaders? And things like that on a regular basis. But I think we add value differently because we're usually kind of the ones kind of trying to stop all of the things from coming at the team to allow them or enable them to do what's necessary, but also kind of being accountable to all the other individual stakeholders and leadership stakeholders that are like, "Hey, Elishia, what's happening here? "Hey, Elishia..." you know, that's really what it is. So, then you kind of get into the technology because you kind of have to know what's going on, right? And there's a lot of things that are happening around here that I would say with the volume of work that comes through our teams, it's kind of hard to keep all of that in place, right? But, I don't know, I do think a lot of our time we spend discussing the work, which it's probably better we're doing it because I don't know if the people that are doing the doing want to do the discussing as well, so...[laughs] MIKE: So, I heard three things there. You run cover for the team so that they can do their work. You communicate and take heat from the leaders you report to, and you help plan and direct the work. Is that a fair summary of what you just said? ELISHIA: Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of have to be somewhat strategic, though, because when you're building teams and leading teams, I think it's a different type of...it's just a different type of work, whereas I used to, like, success looked like getting, you know, code completed within quality on time. And so, you put in all those hours and the years of experience in doing that to help others do it, right? And so, if we as leaders are not giving back and instilling those things into the team that even got us here, then I think we've missed the mark already. So, I just think that's a big part of it and probably one of the reasons I moved into leadership. There's usually a progression, right? You're doing engineering, and you're doing it well. And then you're starting to, okay, now you can go help other people do that thing. And so, it just grows progressively over time. Then you look back and you're like, wait, where did all these people come from and where did the code go, right [chuckles]? But at the end of the day, it's still there. Same mission, no difference whatsoever. It's just you're playing a different part in it. DAVE: What is this kind of the scatter-gather that you do? By scatter-gather what I mean is, like, I report to my team lead and I say, "I'm working on this ticket. It's got this problem, da da da." And he's taking that in from everybody on the team. He's not telling people what tickets are getting worked on. He's telling people this epic is getting done, and it might be done by...And our delivery manager is being asked, "When is this going to be done?" And so, she's following up on those things. At the VP level, what are you collecting from who, and what are you delivering upstream? Like, do you report directly to Fahmi, the CEO? ELISHIA: No, I report to Lee, who reports to Fahmi. DAVE: Okay, there we go. ELISHIA: And so, yeah, actually, it's a good example that you gave. So, it all kind of, I guess you double-click in, and it just gets to a more and more granular level. But I would say, so, for instance, even today, we're in a discussion, and we're talking roadmap, right? What are we delivering for the company, and what's going to be the benefit out of that? So, for me, I've got the folks that are actually wanting those things to be delivered saying, "Hey, are we going to deliver those?" And then I'm working with someone such as Mike who's saying, okay, now how do we now cascade that through the teams? Who do we need to do this work? What technology do we need to make sure we have? What expertise is in place in order to get that done? So, I think when you go and you just double-click into it, it's how we bring in the right teams together to deliver on that thing. And each of us have a responsibility there. It's just if this particular roadmap item requires 10 teams to do it, how do we then get to that point? Yeah, and I think in here, now we've kind of done things a little bit different with, like, to your point, the delivery manager, really looking at how that work’s coming into the team. But then that delivery manager is probably one of three or four delivery managers that are responsible for actually executing on that thing. So, then it just cascades up or down, yeah. DAVE: That's fantastic, thank you. ELISHIA: Absolutely. WILL: So, I had a question. So, I'm really curious. We talk about teams, and, you know, honestly, I've never really gotten a chance to talk to somebody who's on the other end. So, I've been on one end of reorgs and shuffling teams around, shuffling personnel around for projects. And, usually, I just get a like, "Hey, yeah, you're going over here now.” And I'm really curious, as somebody who's sort of making these rosters up, how do you approach sort of building teams? How do you construct a team? I know, obviously, domain expertise is the primary driver, right? And that's just, like, who knows Java? Who knows this system? Who knows whatever, right? You need to have domain expertise, but within the latitude that you have to allocate people. What's your philosophy? How do you approach it to the degree that you even have a choice based on availability and expertise? ELISHIA: Well, I think one benefit of here is that we've had a lot of people that have been here for a bit. So, when we divvy ourselves up in a product-based model, we've already gotten teams built from that perspective. Now, there's a different question in there in that how do you know you have the right team? And a lot of that comes in, is that person a culture fit? Is that person a technical fit? Is that person a driver? Do you need a driver? Do you need a person that can be, you know, hey, just tell me what we need to do and I'll make it happen? And I think a good team is going to kind of have a combination of all those things. Now, again, when we sit and we look at, okay, who's going to be a part of this particular team? Then we have roles and responsibilities that we know we need to fill. A lot of times Mike and the other directors have a pretty good pulse on who's on the team that can actually bring that forward. And I rely heavily on that because they've got the deep experience with these individuals. So, I've been here with Upbound now a little over two years, and so they've got many more years of experience with these folks than I do. So, they can actually say, "Hey, you know what? This person did this type of project, and it went fantastic." And sometimes, you know, the opposite. But [chuckles] the point is, I don't do it alone, right? I have to bring in the folks that really have a lot of other information to contribute because, for me, it's really not just about my thought. It's really about how do we as a leadership team come together and make sure that we can deliver on these things? MIKE: I heard you say there that you listen, rather than dictate [laughter]. You gather information and use that. ELISHIA: I mean, sometimes you kind of have to be the dream killer and say, "No, that's not it." But for the most part, 100%, I mean, that's what I want to do. I want to listen, and I want you guys to bring to me what your suggestions are and how we think we're going to be successful here, because I think, ultimately, we all want the same thing. MIKE: Great. DAVE: You're not killing a dream if you are pointing out that we've got seven dreams that we can go after, and the one you're going after [laughter] is in just the sour spot. We don't have any leverage there. We want to get to this one. It's not big on your radar, but it's huge over here, so... ELISHIA: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's all for the betterment, right, of the company and of the team. Because I think that if you can build the proper teams together, and they like to work together, and they work well together, they don't have to always agree on every piece, but that's where the good debate comes in as well, right? You want challenging thoughts to come to the table, and you want people to be able to come to a good solution because that's what we are, right? We're solving problems. If we're not solving problems, then what are we doing? And so, yeah, you want to have a really good group of thought leaders that can come together to do that. DAVE: What do you define as a thought leader? ELISHIA: Hmm. WILL: [laughs] ELISHIA: That's a great question. I didn’t see that on the list, by the way. DAVE: It's a fantastic buzzword. ELISHIA: [laughs] DAVE: I mean, I know it's somebody who does this with their hands when they're doing a TED Talk [laughter], but beyond that, I don't know. ELISHIA: [laughs] At a TED Talk. That's hilarious. DAVE: We don't have video on the podcast, but everyone listening knows exactly the hand gesture I just made [laughter]. ELISHIA: That's hilarious. WILL: Does anybody remember...there was a Yahoo guy, Shingy. Do you remember Shingy? He was like, never mind. I'll put a picture in the chat because...yeah. Like, no clear, like, a lot of opinions, but no clear responsibilities. That's a thought leader for me. [laughter] DAVE: [inaudible 29:53] I'll be right back. ELISHIA: No, that is not at all what I think a thought leader is because that would be counterproductive to what [chuckles] we're trying to do. But I do think that a thought leader is someone that comes with new ideas, and not only comes with new ideas, but you come with a thought, and you lead it. So, hopefully, you can actually take that thing forward. I think a lot of times we get into a situation where we could get in analysis paralysis, or we can all sit and debate, and we all have a position on things. But who's someone that's going to come with a really good idea and help us to take that forward, and not just take it and kind of bully it through, right? But I think someone that's a good leader can actually bring people to that vision, and that's what I think. I mean, I think we wouldn't get very far without those individuals. So, we got a lot of thought leaders around here. DAVE: Now you got me thinking about what a thought follower would be [laughter]. Does that make sense? No. And I'm not even joking. ELISHIA: Maybe it's this Stingy guy. I don't know [laughter]. DAVE: I'm not even joking. No, no, like, legitimately, like, if you're going to come out and say, "This is where we want to go. How do we get there?" like, in my idea, like, the thought follower is somebody who's proactively engaged in, what can I do from here to get there? I don't know if that's...I could just be making a term up. ELISHIA: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because then you bring the team together because you need the doers, the people that are, like...because think about it, you may not have thought about it yourself, but you hear it, and you're like, that was brilliant, and I know how I can help make that happen. So, I haven't heard necessarily the term thought follower, though [laughs], David. DAVE: I love to switch up a word. ELISHIA: But that's a good way to look at it [laughs]. MIKE: One more question about, well, maybe I'll ask a couple more questions about leadership. What do you wish you'd known when you started leading people, you know, something you know now, you really wish you'd known back then? ELISHIA: So many lessons around here, but I think, you know, probably the best advice I was given, and it came early on, so it was good, is my approach has always been personable, right? For me, walking in, building a relationship, how do we do this? And I remember I was working for this one company, and I had just moved into leadership. And I was doing what always worked for me. And my mentor there was actually the CTO, and I remember he pulled me aside, and he said, "Hey, you know what? You're going to do really well here, but you've got to get meaner [laughs]." And I was like, what? He's like, "I'm telling you, the next group that you're about to work with, that's not going to work.” And I don't think he really meant that I should get meaner, but I think that sometimes what gets you in a position is not always going to be that same thing that keeps you there. And so, there's a lot of things that you learn as you get exposed to different personalities, different levels in the organization, and being able to kind of be someone that can pivot in those different situations. It's not being someone that you're not being authentic, but it's what is it going to take to lead in this environment? And being able to adapt to that. And so, I was fortunate, I think, to even hear that tough feedback, but understand it, respect it, and value it. And then how do I actually change the way I approach things when now I walk into that next room that he was trying to prepare me for? WILL: It's interesting, too. It's interesting, like, how everybody just sort of has, like, different things that...like, I repeat to myself, like, 10 times in the mirror every day, like, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, [laughter] be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice. And I guess, you know, I don't know. Like, one of the things that I, like, you just sort of, like, you know, you get up, and you have more responsibility and more influence. And I constantly, be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice, because, like, as you get, you know what I mean, like, as you get more influence, your words have more and more weight. And I've run into so many people who've maybe let go of the rope because there's no check on the way they talk to people, and they can get, like, out of pocket. I've seen more managers than me not, I mean, not, I mean, my managers were all pretty good. But, like, where they go, they go, like, hey, man, whoa, that was hot, you know? ELISHIA: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, that's just never been my approach. I can't think of, I mean, I can think of scenarios that you maybe could want to do that [chuckles], but it's just never been my approach, so I didn't. I don't have to convince myself not to, but, you know, there's moments. WILL: Was that group, like, did that group start to, like, really, like, shape up when you maybe came in a little bit, well, let's call it more direct, right, more direct, like, here's how it's got to go? ELISHIA: You know what it was? I think it wasn't that they needed to shape up, but I think it was the level of the organization that just you needed to have a different tone with them. No, I will put it that way [laughs]. And that's truly what it was. I mean, because when you think about different personality types, too, I know even, you know, I think of, like, we're a big sports family, so one coach would not work for the other. And so, I think you just kind of have to know how to be influential at the end of the day. And so, that type of advice, for me, I thought, went a long way because it's not going to always be the same approach. And so, that allowed me to stretch myself in other ways because, you know, I am pretty direct, or I try to be. But I try to do it with some level of diplomacy to where my directness doesn't have to cut deep, but you know exactly what I mean. And so, for me, that's helpful. WILL: I mean, this is really interesting. I mean, this is interesting because I completely identify with everything you're saying, right? Being that, like, people just communicate in different ways, and they have different needs, and they have different, like, you know, needs to, like, you know, communicate and all that stuff. Like, how do you suss out how to coach the individual, whether somebody needs direct feedback, whether somebody needs some tough love, whether somebody needs some compassion, some empathy, like, hey, you're all right. You're safe here, you know? Like, you know what I mean? Like, how do you discern the needs of the individual? Because, you know, you get a team, and you kind of got handed a team. ELISHIA: Yes, that is true. WILL: And, like, you got to work with the people you've got, you know, in the way that they work. ELISHIA: Mike, you got to keep me honest because it's been a couple of years now, and I can't remember. But one of the things I make as a practice when I start working with new teams is I ask, "How do you like your feedback? Tell me a little bit about yourself, and tell me how you like your feedback.” I want to know, right, because some people are like, "Look, just look me in the eyes, and shoot me straight." And then some are like, "Can you send me an email and get me, you know, prepared first,” right? It just kind of depends. And I want to communicate with that individual in a way that they're going to receive it. And so, like, it does me no good to communicate to someone that's just going to, you know, go dark and just kind of clam up at some point. We want to have the dialogue, even if it's feedback. So, yeah. MIKE: So, I actually want to chase this. I actually had it in the pre, you know, I had some questions written up ahead of time. And this idea of being nice is actually something I wrote down because I don't think [laughter] it's something that just happens, right? It is a choice, and Will alluded to that. I think it's the easier. The easy answer is to just let your emotions run wild, right? ELISHIA: [laughs]. Yeah, that is definitely the easy button [laughs]. And then there are consequences. MIKE: There are consequences, right. So, we talked a little bit about you say, well, no, I just make that choice. But that is a choice. And I would say, is it something you have consciously made? Have you consciously chosen to value, like, you know, gentle leadership, not going off the handle, versus something else, and why? ELISHIA: You know, gentle leadership, I don't know if I would put it that way, to be honest, because, for me...and not that it's a bad thing, right? I mean, people talk about gentle parenting and all the...but I don't think it's that. I think that when I think about kindness and accountability, they just don't have to be mutually exclusive. Like, I could come to you in a normal, standard tone and still hold you accountable without having to berate you, or anything like that. And so, I give respect, and I expect it to be given to me as well. So, that is a decision. That is an expectation. I don't think it's an option, right? Like, I've been in some really, really challenging environments at times. But even in spite of that, I have to be kind of true to...you know, there's this thing someone gave me, and you can't really read it that well, but it actually says...I don't even know who gave me this [chuckles], but it says, "May you be proud of the work you do, the person you are, and the difference you make." And so, for me, like, at the end of the day, I have to be able to look back and say, how'd that feel [laughs], right? I mean, did that come out okay? And I'm one for self-reflection. And so, I know there are some that go and they respond in different ways, and they may not be self-reflecting, but that's just not been my approach. It's not how I'm wired. So, now, can I get stern? Sure. Do I want to have to? No. Will I? Sure [laughs]. But at the end of the day, it's still going to be with respect, and it's going to be direct, and it's going to be with accountability being held. MIKE: You mentioned gentle parenting, and that's exactly what I was referencing. There's a lot of research behind parenting, right [chuckles]? And there's a difference between authoritarian and authoritative. And authoritative parenting is the one that's associated with the best outcome because there's a lot of accountability and high expectations but also a lot of warmth. And, you know, being direct is not shown to be harmful in parenting, and I think the gentle parenting folks say the same thing. It's not about not being direct. It's about keeping your emotions in control. And so, you're actually parenting rather than expecting your child to parent you. And I -- ELISHIA: You know, I remember a few years back I was reading that book, Radical Candor. And a lot of what it talks about is about, hey, you know, when you go to have those tough conversations, if you don't have kind of the relationship built with that individual and they know that you're coming from, you know, the right place, that difficult conversation comes very differently in that case. And so, if I walk up to you and you're a stranger to me and the next thing you know I'm yelling at you, like, what are you going to take away from that [laughs]? I mean, are you going to respond, or will you meet that energy? You probably could, but, I mean, it's not going to serve any of us well [laughs], so... DAVE: I had a team at a previous gig that they were all very, very much...was it Twain that said, somebody who values brutal honesty tends to value the brutality as much as the honesty? ELISHIA: [laughs] DAVE: And they were like that. And they wanted everybody to read Radical Candor. And it very quickly became clear that they skipped the first two chapters. ELISHIA: [laughs] DAVE: They just say, this is the book that gives us permission to treat you all like punching bags. ELISHIA: [laughs] Absolutely. DAVE: Once you understand how important we are, you'll, you'll put up with it. So, I just handed it back to him, and I said, "Read chapter two until you can explain chapter two to me. And then you're not allowed to even look at the rest of the book." ELISHIA: [laughs] Love it. DAVE: Those who haven't read the book, the first two chapters are, they have to love and respect you because if you're going to punch somebody, metaphorically, in the middle of a meeting, if you're going to embarrass somebody or just really call them on the carpet, you can do that if you are friends, if you have respect. I've dropped an F bomb right on somebody's face in the middle of a meeting and had them thank me. I've also gotten fired for that, but it was a different time [laughter] because I hadn't learned that rule of they got to know how much you care before they care about how much you know. WILL: You know what I mean? Like, you can give people feedback. But as long as...I don't, I mean, like, the thing that saves my ass, like, over and over and over is, like, in the end, if I'm giving feedback, I'm giving feedback based on, like, accomplishing the job. We've got to finish the job. We've got to deliver the goods, deliver the project, accomplish mission, fix the broad outage, whatever we have to, whatever we're trying to do, right? Like, all my feedback comes through the lens of, like, how are we going to fix this? This isn't going good. And how are we going to fix this? And, you know, I've blown it plenty, and I give people the grace that they give me. But as long as, you know what I mean, I haven't, like, taken my eye off the ball, things land pretty well, really, really got to cut down on the F bombs. Actually, I don't. I actually cut them out. They're pretty much fine these days, but like -- ELISHIA: Maybe don't do that. WILL: Maybe no F bombs [laughs]. ELISHIA: I don't mean to be offensive, but, I mean, yeah, then you know you're going to be offensive [laughs]. MIKE: That's how you know somebody is going to say the opposite of what they're leading with. ELISHIA: Absolutely [laughs]. MIKE: I'm not racist but [laughter] -- ELISHIA: You know exactly what they're going to say next. DAVE: There's no good ending for that sentence. ELISHIA: Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because there's a lot of people that can get away with saying certain things because people are like, oh, well, you know, that's just that person. I've never been one of those people that could do that actually. I've never tried it either, but [laughs] I've never been one of those people that could be that [laughs]. WILL: I do try and lower expectations for my behavior as much as I possibly can. Mike knows [laughter]. MIKE: Under promise, over deliver. WILL: Exactly, exactly. ELISHIA: Absolutely. MIKE: So, we're getting kind of near the end of our scheduled time, so I want to pivot a little bit to maybe ask some...I don't know if this is light-hearted or not. You've been in software for a while. Tell us about a time you broke production. ELISHIA: You know, I saw that question on your list, actually [laughter]. And I really tried to sit there and think, like, at what point in time have I been hair on fire, just really, really screwed something up like that? And what I came up with, and I hope I'm not wrong, so somebody might see this and hold me accountable, but [chuckles] I don't remember a time where I broke production. I've had post-production defects that I had to go back and fix. But, like, how we have to jump on the call and everybody figure out, oh, crap, let's go get...no, I haven't had to do that, thank God. But I have had teams that I've been a part of, so it's the same thing for me. But now, I will say, I've had, you know, the patches that I've had to put in. I've had, you know, maintenance releases that I may or may not have had a few things I needed to do something for that I didn't do right. But I've not actually...and, thankfully, because when I first started off in software, I was working on military defense mechanism. Breaking production is just not an option in that situation [laughs]. It's life depending, okay [laughs]? MIKE: Got it. So, you had an army process around to prevent that. ELISHIA: Hopefully. I mean, definitely back then, I mean, we weren't as fast deployment like we are now, right? Unfortunately, sometimes that leaves a little room for opportunity for error, but no, we were a lot slower in development back then. VIGNESH: I mean, not only just talking about Upbound, but in general, what is your, like, strategy of, you know, there is a production issue coming up. How you put a process in place to get better and also some of the lesson learning. What is your strategy to do it retro so that next time we get better? ELISHIA: You know, and this is why I ask the questions I ask all the time, Vignesh. I know you hear me [laughs], but I ask the questions. VIGNESH: [inaudible 46:09] Experience. ELISHIA: But I ask the questions [inaudible 46:07] because my brain always goes to, well, wait, who did the code? Who reviewed the code? What was tested? Walk me through how we got here, and, particularly, when it's something that truly breaks production, right? And we've found that people have done missteps in the process at times, right? And that usually will come back to bite us. So, for me, I mean, I didn't come up with it. I think when I was a developer, I followed the process. I had no other choice. Now, we had some times when we had to do things in kind of rapid fire, but I think that, again, it's been a long time. And we weren't moving, like, continuous deployment at all when I was actually developing software outside of, like, personal projects, but I think I had no other choice. But what I will say, and I think it's something that we talk about a lot around here now, is how do we kind of do this shift left of the defect resolution? Because a lot of things, I think, should be caught a lot earlier than they are. And so, sometimes, you know, as you said, I'll quote you, my friend, in saying sometimes the business pressures are the things that kind of force you to cut corners. I'm not one to want to cut corners, and I think that helps, but, again, it was just a different time, I think, at that point. We didn't get the option of being like, oh, just put the feature flag, turn it off, and, you know, let it go. You know, you could still do that, but it wasn't as common as how it is right now where you're actually deploying something, but you just got it turned off, and then tomorrow you turn it on or, you know, whatever the case may have been. WILL: Yeah, like, you do a deployment through the mail. Like, we're going to burn some CDs or, like, send, like, [laughter] a big, old a tape or, like, a slug of floppies. And you're like, that acts as my deployment. You know what I mean? [laughter] ELISHIA: Will, it wasn't that long ago, I mean, come on [laughs]. WILL: I mean, like, you know, like, that was my first programming job. Very similar story. I was working for some government contractor out in Ohio, and we would, like, you know, we would physically -- ELISHIA: Ship the tape. WILL: We would physically hand them the application that we wrote. Like, here you go. ELISHIA: Certainly. WILL: Yeah, and like -- ELISHIA: Even the CD deployments, I mean, that's all just so, I mean, it's just so different, yeah. It's very different. WILL: God, I know. Yeah, wow. Those were wild times. ELISHIA: [laughs]. WILL: It makes you feel old. Like, I can't. MIKE: [laughs] ELISHIA: No, you're right, though. I mean, so, it just looks different. And it's a much bigger, more expensive thing to break it at that point because so much has gone into getting it right. I'm not saying that that is the direction we should go back to because I much prefer the way we deploy now. But the question is, how are we making sure that we're dotting all our i’s and crossing all our t’s? WILL: So, process-wise, like, what are some things that you find yourself, like, sort of, like, I don't want to say, like, repeating yourself on it, right, because it's not like that. ELISHIA: Ask these two guys [laughs]. WILL: But, like, you still have to drill this. You have to drill, drill, drill. This is part of the process. This is part of the process. This is a part of the process where, like, you just have to keep on, like, reiterating, like, this important thing because people kind of slide off, and you always have to keep that, you know what I mean? [inaudible 49:33] question, sorry. ELISHIA: Am I repeating anything often, Mike or Vignesh [laughs]? DAVE: We love touching on models. We love touching on models. ELISHIA: [laughs] MIKE: The emphasis on testing, validation, getting things right before it goes out. It's evergreen, you know [laughs]? ELISHIA: That's a great way to say that, Mike. I'm glad you answered and not Vignesh, actually [laughter]. But that's probably...especially right now, right, it's Q4. Stability is a huge deal for us, I mean, it should be. I just told someone this yesterday, actually, who kept saying, "Oh, stability is our focus." I said, "Isn't it always?" Like, stability has to be our focus. If it's not our focus, we're in trouble, guys [laughs]. And I say those things a lot. VIGNESH: [inaudible 50:22] Any day production issue is impacting a business. ELISHIA: Absolutely. VIGNESH: And we lose the trust of either it's a co-worker, or a customer, right, if it's going down. ELISHIA: Right. It's reputational risk. It's financial risk. It's all the things, right? So, yeah. So, that's probably it. I mean, I think, for me, we've got a lot of process that I think...and I shouldn't say heavy process, but just we have to get it right. And so, there are situations where I think it'd be beneficial that we make sure that we have that emphasis on quality well before. I tell everybody all the time, like, it's my favorite statement to say, I want QA to be bored. They should have nothing to do. Oh, Mike did this? I don't want to test it. It's not going to have...Like, I want QA to be bored, okay [laughs]? And that's never going to happen, right? But, still, I can dream. That's what I want [laughs]. MIKE: It's a dream we're not going to kill. ELISHIA: Yes [laughs]. Not yet, at least. WILL: I mean, I don't know. Everything in engineering is a trade-off. There's no right answer to anything, right? Like, everything is a slider, right? So, if you want stability or velocity, right? If we never release any more software, man, I can get this thing [inaudible 51:45]. ELISHIA: Perfection. WILL: It'll be like a perfect diamond. The business might not be happy, but you know? Because I've been doing a lot of retail stuff, you know? I mean, it's a real thing. Like, people are trying to, like, right now, actually, right now, it needs to be out, right? Like, September is, like, the freakout month where it's like everything, whatever we're going to do, we're making our money for the year. We're hitting our numbers for the business [laughter] for the year in September. And October is just sort of like, you know, making sure the boat isn't leaking. But, like, that's a big thing, you know? ELISHIA: Sure. WILL: Like, you could maybe have a day off, you know? Maybe not Labor Day, but, like, you know, like, September 15th [laughter]. If you have a tough day at the office, like, it'll be okay. ELISHIA: [laughter] DAVE: Will, you work for an electronics retailer, correct? WILL: Not anymore. Now I work for a major telecommunications provider. DAVE: Okay. If it was retail electronics...because in video games, like, electronics, September is when you lock in the orders that will be produced in time for Black Friday. So, your critical deadline for making all your money for the year is, like, September 15th, frequently. WILL: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm still in retail, but for, like, a telecom, and I have things that I have to do for them now. But, like, yeah, like, no, you're making your money in that Q3 Black Friday lead-up ramp. But, like, all your stuff has to be, like, I don't know. I'm just used to, like, I'm used to this being, like, October is, like, you know, we froze it down, and, like, now I can, like, take a breath. I don't want to say coast for the rest of the year because, like, there definitely could be some on calls. But, like, ah, everybody can take a breath right around now. Hopefully -- ELISHIA: Oh, around now? WILL: Yeah, well, because it’s out, right? You don’t want to be, like, it’s October -- DAVE: He doesn't work here anymore, Elishia. It's okay. ELISHIA: [laughs] WILL: October 17th? MIKE: We're pushing on a little further here [laughter]. Some things are in November. WILL: All right. Go ahead. Keeping it spicy. October 17th is, ooh, like, I would have to be, like, you know, at other places, I would need to have a conversation one-on-one with you or your counterpart, Elishia, if I wanted to put a feature out. ELISHIA: Absolutely. Moratorium -- WILL: Like, they'd be like, let's have a direct conversation [laughs]. ELISHIA: Absolutely, no, I agree. Moratoriums are real around this time, for sure. Yeah. I know it's the other thing we talk about a lot right now, so... MIKE: Yeah [laughs], it's true. ELISHIA: [laughs] MIKE: So, Elishia, I know you had about an hour, and I know you've got, I think, a flight to catch this evening. So, I don't want to... ELISHIA: I have a flight to catch, yeah. MIKE: So, do you have any final words you'd like to share, you know, words of wisdom from Elishia before you go? ELISHIA: Oh my gosh [laughter]. MIKE: Or words of humor [laughs], words of [inaudible 54:39] ELISHIA: No, seriously. I mean, honestly, this was a lot of fun. Mike has been talking to me about the podcast for quite some time, and I finally get a chance to participate, and I'm excited. So, hopefully, you guys have me back, and we can get into some other topics. MIKE: Great. Thank you. ELISHIA: Nice to meet you, Will. Good seeing everybody else. And, hey, let's focus on stability. [laughter] DAVE: Thank you. Thank you for your time. WILL: [inaudible 55:04] time. ELISHIA: Bye, guys. Thank you. MIKE: Until next time on the Acima Development Podcast.