Greg Dunlap 0:02 So our guest today is Rosie Sherry. Rosie has been very active in community building for a number of years. Not only is Rosie the community lead at the community management platform Orbit, but she also publishes the website and weekly newsletter about community called Rosieland, and founded the Ministry of Testing and homeschools her five kids in Brighton in the United Kingdom. And we're really glad to have Rosie here. So welcome to the show. Rosie Sherry 0:27 Thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me. Greg Dunlap 0:29 So what's what's kind of your origin story? Like, I know, you have a background in tech, but how did you get involved in community management? Rosie Sherry 0:38 Yeah, interesting one, because I definitely, definitely didn't grow up. You know, knowing about community as a career and like, when I look back at when I started my career as young as 20. I started in tech at 20, not Community, but like, community was never, you know, it wasn't on my radar, I never knew existed. But like, I started, like, as a software tester, I managed to get a testing job when I was quite young, you know, very kind of junior role, that that was kind of enough to kind of get me going and keep me going in the tech world. And I did testing for four years, and then kind of come like that, that was like, 2000. year and the year 2000. So come like 2005 2006. Like, I guess like the internet was kind of getting a bit more interesting. Web 2.0 was kind of like, you know, that was kind of the era that was happening. There were lots of like, cool things, at least from my perspective, appearing, you know, as a timer, like Flickr. And probably Meetup started around then or shortly after then, you know, all these like, new new kind of businesses, venture backed businesses, mostly. But yeah, just like the whole the whole idea kind of jumped onto my radar then partly through meetups, which I was like, originally like the attendance arm. And then my first step into community was actually like, deciding to like organize a local meetup. And that was a really good experience for me. And I did I did one is partly luck. I think I've done the right kind of meetup, which was like, it was a girl geek dinner meet up. And it just went really well, for two to three years is fully booked. Every every month that we did it as a you know, as soon as we announced it would like pack out almost on the day kind of thing. And, you know, just having that experiences kind of really uplifting to me, and I really enjoyed it. And I took kind of a very what's the right word, but like, I've stepped back from from, you know, from the limelight, as I was more like the person curating it, the person pulling it together, but like, on the event on the day itself, you know, check people in and stuff, but I would never like to avoid as much as possible to stand up in front of the crowd. And yeah, that kind of wasn't my thing. Quite introverted. But yeah, that was just a, you know, a great experience. And then I went on to co-start or co-found a co-working space. And again, that was, I guess, that was like, you know, the next level up from a meetup is having this kind of permanent co working space. And that was amazing again, now organize lots of meetups or pull people together and all of that and that, you know, and that was kind of like when coworking was still, like, not popular at all. Greg Dunlap 4:04 Yeah still pretty new back then. Rosie Sherry 4:06 Yeah, it wasn't new new, but it's definitely felt fairly new. Definitely not like what it is today. And yeah, I did that for two three years. And loved it, but was in the wrong partnership was within business with someone so I left and but as as I was doing both the meetup and the CO working space. It's like, I think I do like a juggle. I juggle many balls at once. I decided to start a community for testers because I was a tester at the time. I was kind of in and out of testing, and I had like a couple of kids in between all of that as well. And there's this tool called Ning, which I think is still around. So I used that to like kickstart the community. And you some testers I like had a blog at the time, I'd written a few blog posts and stuff, nothing like massive, but enough to like, kind of get the ball rolling and enough to get like the first few members on board. But really, it was just like an excuse to experiment with with stuff and see what happened, what happened. And with that, it, you know, I just kind of kept at that. And for the first three years, it was very much a side project thing where I was just doing it for fun, I was trying to liven up the software testing world, which, in my opinion was bland. So, you know, just trying to, you know, have fun and do different things and just, you know, try to inject a bit a bit of innovative, you know, fun innovation, I guess. And, yes, I did that for three years. And then after three years, I was just like, Oh, this has taken up a lot of my time, it has kind of grown. I can't remember how many members it had at the time. Probably, I don't know, maybe like 10,000 members or something like that. And I kind of decided just to go in and turn it into a business, I kind of made a promise to myself as I, this has to be a business, I'm going to not I'm going to stop doing it. So that's what I did. I turned it into a business. And yeah, so basically, I decided that people needed to do events in the UK, specifically, because I lived in the UK. And that was like, what the focus I gave is like we do events, we do good events, we do affordable events. And there was nothing like that at the time for testers. So all events that were out there were very kind of corporate events or very expensive. And I just thought it was something that that would be good for the industry. And then we just kept doing it year after year. And each year it would grow it. And then I think come like year five, like we had started as like a one day event. And by by year five, we were like a two day conferences, training courses as well. So it's like almost like a full week of stuff happening. And it was accommodating. Like, on the busiest day it was accommodating like 300 people. And it was making a living from it, which which is great. And, and then come Yeah, coming year five people started asking to do in different cities. And like, on reflection and like, I find it really hard to say no to people. So we ended up doing conferences in different cities. And then they tell me you got to like 2018, I think was the busiest year with it done like nine conferences in nine different cities and countries, from like the US to in Europe, in Australia and New Zealand. And, you know, they weren't all massive, they were like, generally between 150 to 400 people. But still, like a fairly big undertaking. And trying to figure out how to do conferences in different countries, in hindsight is a bit of a daft thing to take on. But we did it and you know, I'm proud we did it like as a team. But in hindsight is a probably not like the most profitable thing to be doing. But yeah, it's you know, no regrets. I don't think they you know, we've done something pretty amazing with on a kind of bootstrap. But so, you know, that's, you know, I need to remind myself sometimes, you know, all the crazy things, things we've done. Greg Dunlap 9:06 It's interesting, because I feel like, you know, a lot of people start communities and then start to burn out, right. And in a lot of cases, he reason for that burnout is because they're juggling too much. They've got a job, they've got kids, they've got this community they're trying to run. And I what I see a lot is that people draw back from their communities because they feel like they can't juggle everything. And this is the only thing they have to give but you kind of went the other direction where you took your job and put it into your community. And I find that really interesting. Like, like, how did how did that process work for you and come to you? Rosie Sherry 9:49 Yeah, I mean, interesting one. I don't know I say I guess like I see things and I think like, you know, in this instance, I was in the world of Testing. And I was just so annoyed that like, like in Brighton I live in Brighton. So as you know, it's a pretty kind of trendy ish city. And this, you know, going back to like, when I started wanting to test and I went to a few conferences, and I was jealous. I was jealous at like these web designers. It wasn't testing, it was like web design tech conferences. And these, you know, web professionals. Were putting on these conferences, and I'll say, Oh, this is so unfair. So how can you get all the fun? How come like, testers don't have this? So, you know, a lot of my stuff is, is very much like inspiration taken from elsewhere, like what other people are doing? And how can I apply it to my life or my situation? You know, I don't think any, any ideas these days? 100%? Yeah. Was it 100%? Original or unique? Yeah, original, unique. So a lot of my stuff, because there wasn't a lot going on in the testing world, I just take a lot of inspiration from the web design world, because I used to hang out with a lot of web people in my local town and keep up to up to date with what they were doing. And yeah, I don't know, I just like, I think there's opportunity there. And I think I saw opportunity. But you know, I definitely didn't think I would end up, you know, turning it into, into like a seven figure business and doing like corporate events all around the world. That wasn't the plan. But, you know, I thought, well, you know, there's something in there to be had, I wasn't doing anything else. To be honest. I was like, in and out of other things. And I had the choices I had kids, it was always hard to, like, get a full time job. And I just thought, like, as an opportunity, especially as it grew to, you know, potentially create something. And, you know, I think I dive into things without really fully understanding the consequences sometimes, but I think that's, that's maybe maybe part of the fun. Greg Dunlap 12:24 I mean, I think I think that's one of the things that stops people from doing what you did is that, like, you know, it's that fear or not, you know, they think about it too much. And then they worry, and then they decide not to do it. So, I mean, it could get i think that i think that goes both ways. Rosie Sherry 12:41 Yeah, I think I just like when I when I have an idea on something, I get a bit fixated on it, and I find it hard to let go. Greg Dunlap 12:52 Did you find like, I think one of the things that people worry about when they see communities get kind of monetized like that, is that the are going to become more, you know, businessy or formalized, or like that the the quest for the profit is going to take over the community, like, how did you balance that when you were building the Ministry of testing? Rosie Sherry 13:16 Yeah, it's definitely a tough one to balance. I think, balancing it mentally, just like my own mind, and balancing it with the community. And then like, balancing the business aspect. I had tried a few things like trying to introduce membership before I did the events and stuff like that, but it just like, never took off. And I didn't try too hard to be honest. But I think, you know, people just like didn't respond to it. And I think it was too early as well. Like, in hindsight, especially if we look at like where the web is today. People in those times weren't, like prepared to like, pay for membership for things. Whereas these days, they are. And, you know, maybe I was maybe super clever or just lucky. But I think I think this is what I ended up going with events, which was I wasn't taking anything away from the community, I was only add into it. And I didn't do free events. I just went in straight and said I'm doing a paid event. So say, I don't think people could really complain that much about it is like, you know, events cost money to put on is everybody pays for conferences. You know, pretty much so, I think in hindsight, you know that that was I guess a good decision is adding something on top and not taking anything really away from the community. And, but, you know, communities change, you know, I don't, I don't think we can escape that. And it's like, I think, you know, at the same time, if they don't change, they end up dying. And, and that was probably something that was always on my mind is I know when I made that decision, like three years in is that I had to make money for this, or I was going to stop. And, you know, I think that's the reality of a lot of communities is that if they're not sustainable, they die out because people burn out or they get tired, or, you know, they have, they have life priorities, and they're not benefiting financially, in a fair way from something, they're not going to give it the priority, when push comes to shove, they're gonna, they're gonna give their job a priority, or they're going to give the other business that they might have a priority, which is totally fair. You know, as, as people we need to, you need to find ways to, you know, make make a living. So like, for me, I was at that three year turning point, I was just in my mind, I was convinced that I'm up for the challenge of making this community work. But it has to pay. And it's not that I want to be rich from it, but I want to make a decent living from it. And that that was, that was my goal. And we'd have a few complaints here and there. But overall, people were quite, quite accepting. A lot of people said that they would never go to a conference, but they they did. And stuff like that is like, yeah, I talked about that. Sometimes the sakes. It's kind of like the mom test is like, if you if you ask people what they want that, you know, they won't tell you the real truth, even though they think it's a truth. And so like, I made the decision for the community, because I felt like I knew what was best for them. Because I had spent the most time studying the community and being with them. So I kind of went in not necessarily confident, but kind of believing that an event would work, because that's what the industry needed. Yeah, totally. It's Greg Dunlap 17:16 interesting, I was talking to someone else about this recently, where it's like, you know, you want to you know, you your community in the end exists for its members, not for you. And so you want to respond to what they need, and what they're telling you. But on the other hand, sometimes there's things that you see that the community needs that they may not even realize that they need. And it's like a balance, because you don't want to be like a dictator, where you're like, you know, telling telling people, this is my way, and it goes but on the other hand, the community doesn't really always understand the big their own big picture all the time, either. Rosie Sherry 17:49 Yeah, it's definitely true. And, you know, I'm a bit allergic to things like surveys and asking for feedback all the time. Kind of a big believer that people say things as they are. And you can either take that information and take it on board or not say, but at the end of the day, say the community is on my shoulders, it's up to me to make it happen. Because if I don't do it, I knew that it would die. And this is the reality that people don't realize that yes, it's a community, but I'm actually responsible for everything. If, you know, if I if I get sued or something, I'm the one who needs to ensure that all the paperwork is is in place. I don't get sued or, you know, this, there's a lot of risk that community leaders, you know, put themselves in that. community members don't don't realize and we can, no, I definitely know approached it as mindfully as I could. I was always as considerate as I could. But I was also very aware that I had to, as best as I could enjoy, enjoy the process as well. Because what's the point otherwise? Greg Dunlap 19:10 You grew that community very large. Like I think I heard you say in another interview at one point that like you had, like 100,000 members in Minstry of Testing at one point, for whatever you define that. I see a lot of people having problems with scaling communities, right, because communities change when they scale and managing that can be difficult. How did you handle the issues of scale as that community grew and grew? Rosie Sherry 19:41 Yeah, it's not quite 100,000. So there's probably like, 35,000 registered members then. But then there's, as I would measure community in these days, there's like another 50,000 in our LinkedIn group, and then there's another 20,000 On Twitter, and so say that there is overlap, but it's it's hard to know how much overlap there is at the moment, but, you know, it's definitely like the largest testing community and yeah, I mean, how do you manage it? You say, cuz what is the community as well. So there's very, very different levels of community involvement that's like people who, who lurk and you know, admire from from afar and consume the content, but like, never participate. And then on the on the complete flip side, there's the fans, you know, the, the kind of like the ambassadors who that in there, like all the time, or they help us host events, they run meetups, the speaker, or conferences? And, yeah, how do you grow that, I mean, to say that the only way that I knew how, or approached it was kind of literally one day at a time and looking, looking for people each step of the way. And I think people would be surprised at how few people it takes to keep to keep a community going so so you don't need hundreds of 1000s or you don't, you don't need 100,000. So like to make a community feel lively, you probably need, you know, hundreds, Ministry of Testing is like, in reality, like people who are regularly active is probably not that many. But it's enough to kind of keep it alive. And you'd like if we think of an event, for example, we might do an event that has a 10 speakers. And, you know, that's, that's not a huge number, but to get 10 speakers, you kind of need maybe 100 people to apply for, for like a speaking slot. So, you know, those are the kind of numbers that that, you know, you're talking about is, you know, it's not massive, but it's still a fair chunk to, to sift through. And, like, for me, you know, I guess, like, everything is, is like trying to pay attention to the people that actually care the most, about the opportunities that are given. And I think a lot of communities, especially communities that run or have events, they often, you know, focus on on the most popular people, they get, like the biggest speakers in to try to attract people to kind of buy tickets. And I was kind of like, almost took the opposite approach, most of the times I would avoid as much as possible the, the well known people and I would look everywhere for, for people who were looking for the opportunities, who really appreciated having the opportunity to speak or given them the first speaking gig as well. You know, all those kinds of things is that that's like the approach I would take. And I think, to be honest, that's what builds community because you're building from the ground up. And when when you look after the people who need it, they stick around and they come back. Whereas if you're focused on I guess a popular people their influences, so yes, sure that they'll appreciate it, but they won't hang around because they're too busy. And if if you approach them at a time in their life, when they're too busy, it's not going to give them the same kind of connection to us then it would do to someone who's who's new to the field, someone who you give them their first speaking gig, your son who you help, find, find the job, the first job even, and all those kind of things. So, yeah, I mean, I've never I've never adopted like, mass, like marketing efforts, or anything like that. It's, it's always been connect with the community communicate with communities as much as we can, and give the community opportunities. Greg Dunlap 24:23 I think that makes a lot of sense. And I like the perspective of paying the most attention to to the people who are you know, actively participating and, you know, basically, you know, in your case bringing bringing, bringing the money forth, right to keep things running. Rosie Sherry 24:42 Definitely. Greg Dunlap 24:47 So, you know, you're running Ministry of testing, and at some point you decide to take a step back and and look for or go in a different direction and I know that a lot of founders, especially of large communities have a really hard time but that like, they feel like they've grown this from scratch, it's their baby, they have trouble letting go, or, or even sometimes, you know, delegating within the community as they're as they're growing, because they feel very, very protective. And, and you did that and what was like what? Well, first of all, what was it that made you decide you wanted to go and pursue other opportunities? And then what was it? What was what was it like for you to let that go and step away and watch someone else run it? Rosie Sherry 25:35 Yeah, the heart of it. I've known for quite a while that, like, I enjoyed testing. But the longer I did it, the longer I realized that I didn't want to stay focused on on testing as an industry. And I tried for a while to stick with it. But like, the longer things went on, I was like, No, I'm just like, I'm bored of testing, you know, that support you've got. And I felt like, in my eyes, I often bored, I'm not going to be inspired, I won't be able to serve the people properly. And it became apparent to me that the longer that went on, the more out of touch I got, the more like things that people submit talk submissions, that I wouldn't really fully understand what what they were talking about. And I would take note of those kinds of situations and think, maybe it's time for me to kind of move on. But, you know, easier, easier said than done. And I laugh about it, but you know, seriously, is tough. And I tried a couple of times over the years to partner up with people and failed. And so like, you know, then came like, the third time around that I was trying, and I was like, filled with dread and thinking, How am I ever gonna find someone to take it over, because that's what I felt I needed is like, either someone takes over and continues, given the community what they need, or I sell it, or I close it down, those are the three options, and didn't want to close it down. Because I felt wrong, I didn't want to sell it because it felt wrong as well. I knew that if I sold it, it would probably die. At least I'd have money in my pocket, but it just felt wrong. So I went down the path of trying again to find someone else to take over. And luckily, you know, I found I found Richard is the current CEO, he, he was part of the community and he helped me organize some of the first events, as we started doing in different cities, we kind of started building up a relationship. And, you know, he, you know, he was up for taking the challenges on of, of taking it over. But you know, not easy, because, you know, it's hard to figure that stuff out legally, and financially, let alone, like having the right person for the role. And also, like, committed to fully stepping back is, you know, it's hard. It was it was hard for me. Partly just to, you know, let go of it. But also thinking to myself, well, I've been doing this for 10 years, what am I gonna do next kind of thing, mentally that was, you know, challenging. So, but you know, and then so, you know, Richard took over CEO, and he's like, I kind of see him as like, the third co founder, he just came on a bit later. But that's like, the perspective that I have, he has ownership of it, like, like I do, like my husband does as well. But you know, it's tough process, because, you know, I took my time. And when you take your time, like handing something over, and when you're not really enjoying it, and when it's still like in the back of your mind that this could fail again, and it could all still end up on my shoulders is not a great place to be in. And I kind of related to it was like a job that I couldn't quit. And that's tough, you know, so say there's like a three year journey to to extract myself. And even now that I'm extracted, I don't really do anything day to day. But I still have that responsibility. So I'm not completely out of the picture because I still own it or call on it. Still have that responsibility, but I'm okay with it. But you know, at the same time often I think, Well, you know, I don't really want to own anymore. You know, because it you know brings that level you know It takes up space in my head, not not as much as what it used to, but it's still takes up space in my head. And, and, you know, it's like, in the run up to me leave. And I also felt like I couldn't talk about it publicly because, you know, I didn't think people would, would understand or appreciate it. And so I never spoke about it, which, which kind of, never really helped either. But it's, you know, it's only like, you know, two, three years after leaving that I've kind of started talking about it. And just found it tough to be public about it, whilst also being part of the community as a, I guess, I was scared that people would like, think that I didn't appreciate it or say, you know, why is she saying that when she just got such a great job in front in the community, she's done such a great job, she's making a living, what was what she complaining about, you know, those, those kind of things kind of run through my head at least. So it's like, you know, there's all this like, stuff bottled up that you can you can talk about publicly? And that, yeah, I'm okay talking about it. Now. It's fine. But when you're when you're in his stuff, Greg Dunlap 31:16 Yeah, I used to be very, very active in a, in a very large open source software community. And I was running up project. And it's like, it's interesting, because I felt like, I had a lot of the same problems stepping away from that. But I've also found a lot of the times, if you're very, you know, thoughtful, and you know, the needs of your community, and you understand, you know, you're a good judge of character, and, you know, people who are involved, that, you know, oftentimes, things really thrive when you when, when I stepped when I've stepped away from projects in in way, and in oftentimes, in ways that probably never would have happened, if I had been there, and they, they're different than I would have done, but it's not like they're bad. And I you know, it's just interesting to me, that people, that people, you know, cling to those things so much, but, but I often find that when they walk away, those things thrive just as well, and the person is probably happier, because they weren't ready, because they weren't really their heart wasn't in it anymore, you know? Rosie Sherry 32:22 Yeah, definitely. I'm definitely, you know, I'm definitely glad that I stepped back. happy with, you know, where it's going. And I think, I definitely think it was right, right decision, like everyone. And, you know, at the same time, I'm like, yeah, just accepting that, almost whatever happens happens, you know, I believe that it will continue to kind of got impacted by COVID. But I believe, you know, it will continue to thrive for years to come. But at the same time, stepping back is also kind of accepting that whatever it comes with, it is what comes of it. If it doesn't, it doesn't, if it doesn't work out. I'm not gonna, you know, it's not, for me, it's not the end of the world. And, you know, I kind of feel bad saying that, especially like, for Richard, who, you know, who's running it, and he's putting his heart into it. But, you know, I've handed over the keys to him, he's, you know, he's, he's gone. And he's doing, you know, the best job that he can with what he has, he's putting his heart into, and it's, it's up to him, and it's up to the economy as well. It's up to you know, so many things, but whatever happens happens, and, you know, I've tried really hard to, like, detach myself emotionally from it. And I think I'm there. I say, you know, I think that we'll wait and see what happens with it. You know, whatever happens, but, you know, I'm proud, I'm proud, I'm proud of it, say, I own this business, or I call on his business employees. I don't know, eight 9 10 people. You know, that's, that's amazing that, you know, something that I've started is given people in this work that they they enjoy and like the people that work there, they're, like, 90% of them are all people who have grown up through the community as well. They've been a part of, they've been most of them have been testers or our testers to some extent. And, you know, it's great to see to see that happen. And you know, and you know, I guess, yeah, I'm proud of that. I'm proud to have given that opportunity to the team and I'm proud like that. Richards kind of stepped up and he's doing lots of things that I never wanted to do so he deserves a lot of credit. Greg Dunlap 35:21 So you're you're transitioning out of Ministry of Testing, and you're not interested in testing? Did you think that you wanted to go on to another community management role? or How did? or How did you know? You know, obviously, at some point in your head, you've transitioned as a career from testing to community management, like, what did that look like? And when did you start writing about community management and talking about it and stuff like that? Rosie Sherry 35:52 Yeah, I mean, when I when I stepped back, I kind of thought I wanted to do community, like, as a focus. And even though like I did community administrator testing, and I was like, the main community personnel for years, I didn't necessarily enjoy, like the business aspect of it, even though like I understood it as I, I wanted to focus focusing more on on purely community. And so I ended up going to Indie Hackers. It wasn't planned. But what happened was I had done so Indie Hackers started about five years ago. And shortly after I started. Well, just for perspective, Indie Hackers is a community for founders, independent founders. And they did interviews of founders and how they grew and how they make money. And they would dive into like the the financial aspect as well. So I was one of the early people who offered to do an interview with him, text based interview. And then so when it came to like me stepping back from Ministry of Testing, I wanted to hang out more Indie Hackers, but never found the time. But one day I was there, and I saw Courtland, the founder, was looking for some social media help, as Oh, I could do that. Because I had done all the social stuff and all of that for from Ministry of Testing. And so I reached out to him, and he was like, he was confused. He's like, what, aren't you running Ministry of Testing? Aren't you over qualified for this job? Is that you do realize it's a job. And I was like, Yeah, I know, I know. But I just, I just want to do something else. anything, I just want to kind of get my head stuck into something else just to give me a new insight or new perspective on to enter, like how Indie Hackers is run, I was, I was genuinely curious as to how it was run. And my kind of reasoning behind it was, I wanted to hang out in the hackers, but I struggled to find the time because it wasn't a priority. But if I was paid something to hang out there, then that would make me show up. And that would make me learn. And I kind of felt like I've gotten a bit out of touch with like, the startup world, or the indie world. So I saw as a way to kind of relearn everything that was going on, and to, you know, just kind of get immersed into that world. So he was looking for social media help, but then we spoke and then he offered me the opportunity to lead the community, which kind of made sense. So I did. And I did that for two years. And it was, it was fun. I definitely appreciate the opportunity is it was different. It was challenging, in many ways I had to kind of for me, like, personally is like, I'd come from this testing background and people in in Indie Hackers didn't really know about me. So, for me, personally, I had to kind of shift my testing identity. I was trying to like, you know, just like move away from it. But not in a like really obvious way. But I ended up like, you know, kind of cutting my who I was following on Twitter and stuff like that, just to make it more indie focus, rather than like testing focus. And about, you know, I guess personally and mentally that was kind of like the tough shift is like, Who am I? Who am I now what am I going to be? And I thought I wanted to do community which is why I ended up at Indy hackers. And then like, the more I was there, the more I was at, yes communities at what I want to focus in on. So that's when I kind of started Rosieland, as like a newsletter and then a paid newsletter. I was like, evolving into community. But doing that was my way of making myself kind of show up for the community world and to research into the community or what people were talking about. Because I had, you know, I had, you know, educated myself on community. And I knew I had read some books, but I wasn't really on top of it. So, me starting a newsletter was a commitment to learning more, and also test for me whether I actually enjoyed that aspect of, you know, kind of becoming more of a specialist, as a community professional. Greg Dunlap 40:43 It's interesting to me this idea of a community professional, it still seems very new. I mean, I know that it goes back a while like, I remember when we think like, when, like at Flickr when Heather Champ got hired as the as the community manager and stuff like that, that was a really new thing, but it still seems like it's it's only been fairly recently that that's emerged as a potential career path in the business world, you know? Rosie Sherry 41:09 Yeah. It's definitely been around for years. But yeah, you know, and I definitely remember Heather from Flickr, you know, she was like, you know, one of my early inspirations and think like Seth Godin, as well, was inspirations. And, but definitely, like, career wise, it was hard to get into, it's hard to find jobs as like that. I don't think they were particularly paid well. And not as respected and even, like, when I look back at when I started at Indie Hackers, you know, the sake I think even then that's only gone back, like two and a half years. You know, it wasn't community as, as a role wasn't really kind of considered that, you know, that great or that good? Or that are popular even then. But it's definitely COVID is just like, a Yeah, Yeah, I agree everything, everyone's gonna, like community mad. And it's great. It's great. Like, I think it's, it's done me a lot of good. And, and I think, like the opportunities out there. There's so many I've never seen so many, like, job, job postings ever. It's, you know, there's like, I think like, that people are struggling to hire experienced community professionals now, as like, the general kind of vibe that I get, is I get like, a lot of kind of people were social media experts, or marketing experts, and it. And then community job roles often get mixed in with marketing roles. And it's, that's just not what community is. So there's definitely like different. Yeah, but there's definitely overlap. But, you know, it's very different. And then, you know, I've seen a lot of people, especially in the past, I guess, three to six months, they keep coming to me now, as I do you know, anyone for this role, you know, that, you know, they're looking to hire for people, and they can't, they can't find them. They can't find experienced people, at least, I think they have to make compromises or they have to up the, you know, what they're willing to pay? And I think, definitely, like, the the salaries have gone up, which is, you know, for, for community professionals, it's, it's about time. Yeah. You know, it's, you know, it's interesting, I think, you know, there's there's so much now to serve in the community. Well, but I think the challenge is, there's people who are jumping on the wave that don't really understand what community actually means. And they're trying to, like solve, solve things that don't need solving, or they're trying to come at things from like the wrong angle. And, and, yeah, I just see a lot of people starting communities, and they just do it, like wrong, and then they get stuck. And they don't understand why. Greg Dunlap 44:20 Yeah, I work as a, I work as a consultant. And I see that a lot, especially in kind of the startup and tech world right now. You know, I have kind of my guidelines for communities, and one of my big ones is that you are there for the community, not the other way around, and I find a lot of these sort of more corporate tech, you know, community angles are all like, how can we create a community because it'll be good for us, and how can we create a community because it'll be good for our users? And that's definitely a trend that I've seen happening in the last couple of years. Rosie Sherry 44:55 Yeah, I've definitely started like, on Twitter. I've been tend to be a bit more vocal about it and, you know, is along the science, the lines of what you say is say, just because a company wants a community doesn't doesn't mean they should get one or have, you know, it's like, you know, it's almost like they declare that they want to community and then and then they, you know, look at like successful communities and they want to like, clone that those, but they don't realize the years that it's taken for these communities to like get off the ground, or even why they've gotten off the ground. So he has those kind of things to say. I'm trying to encourage people not to, not to start communities support them out, because everybody's saying they want to start a community. But they, I think, I think they love the idea of it. But actually, you say, is most likely not not the right thing for them. Greg Dunlap 45:58 So you recently started a new job at Orbit where you're acting as community lead, so why don't you tell us a little bit about Orbit and what they're doing and what your new job entails? Rosie Sherry 46:11 Yeah, so over it's, I guess, yeah, I'm still trying to figure out good ways to explain, but it tries to measure activity of, of communities from across across the internet, I guess you would say, and, and figure out what to do with that information to enable people to build better communities. So I guess, like, if you if you take the perspective that, when quite often these days, when people think of building community, they think of building a community on their platform, and that's where their community should exist. Whereas in reality, the communities don't just exist on a platform, they exist on many platform. And so you might, they might exist on a Slack and, and then they might exist on Twitter, and they also might exist on on LinkedIn, for example. Or, you know, they might be on YouTube, for, you know, for for, you know, but so, this, this concept of a community that exists in one location is a myth. And I've kind of bought into the idea that that's true. And the more that I look at the communities I felt, as a kid trying to force them into this kind of one platform never works. And if I look at my history of testing, for example, we exist on email, we exist on discourse, Slack, LinkedIn, Twitter, say, all these locations, our members are interacting with each other. But there's no way of really kind of connecting all the dots between those things. So over is kind of that way of connecting all the dots as a gathers the data creates profiles for people on orbit, and connects them to all these different profiles to make better sense of who your community is. And then based on that the goal is to then help people build better communities to find ways to action, that data, rather than, you know, just like sitting all day as like, right, you know, so this is a data we have is that who are our most active people? Who are the people with, with love, or strong love that they refer to? And who are the new people? And what can we do with these new people that are just like, on the periphery of the community? And who are like, strongest ambassadors and things like that? Yeah, so I don't know if that makes sense. Greg Dunlap 48:55 It's interesting. It sounds almost like it's kind of like an analytics platform for communities in a way. Rosie Sherry 49:00 Yeah, it's kind of analytics is kind of like some people refer to it as like a CRM or community. Focused CRM. So it's kind of a mixture of them all. But it's, it's also like, built really kind of thoughtfully and mindfully of what do what do communities need? And why why are we gathering this data and what what information are we gathering that's, that's actually helpful. So like, I mean, like, a big reason for me joining was, was because because of this, and because of like the nature of, of the way that they're trying to approach community of really trying to understand, like how how communities grow and build and taking, like, a tech and data approach, but also kind of being really mindful of what you know. community is great. And technology is great. But none of this means anything if we can apply good community building practices to all of us. Greg Dunlap 50:13 So I mean, you've been, you've gone from, you know, running your own business to, you know, working with Indie Hackers in what's it been like to sort of transition into product startup land? Rosie Sherry 50:31 It's definitely new for me. So I've never Yeah, I've never been there. I've never worked for startup like this. And it's a funded startup as well, as you know, young, it's, you know, is, is growing, I think, like, when I joined just like six weeks ago, I think I was like, employee number eight, or nine, or something like that. And now it's, I think, already at 15. Or, like I say, every week, there's someone new joining. And, you know, it's product based, and, you know, it's, it's new to me, and yes, I worked with Indie Hackers, which is a small team. But you know, that was less, like, full time, it was mostly just four of us. So it's, you know, much smaller than what it is now. And yeah, so like, for me, it's, it's a bit of a new experience, I think I'm definitely adapting to many things, I'm adapting to the product, figuring out the product, and then in the product and adapting to the growth of the team. And like, I guess, like, leading the community, like being the first community hire, which is the main reason I joined and the opportunity that is there, I think, is as big as as a company, but also, for me, personally, it like, the only reason I joined is because it aligns with what I want to do, which is I've said this to Patrick, you know, as I say, my whole, my whole mind is focused on changing that community building called the community industry. And anywhere that I joined, I have to see that as, as something that I can I can get into something that I have the opportunity to do, because yes, it's a great opportunity, but it's also a sacrifice to me. Like if it doesn't work out, so is there um, you know, always weighing up my options is like, Do I go in with orbit which I have done? Or do I go independent? And, you know, I was going to go independent after I left in the ACA sounds like my plan. But then they Orbit came up, so yeah, you know, it's challenging, because I don't know is like, coming from an indie background, where I'm used to being independent, working on my own things. And even though I was indie hackers for a couple years as a contractor there for the whole time. So my mindset wasn't necessarily, like an employee mindset. And so yeah, I mean, yeah, I just, I think a lot of it is just like adjusting personally to being a part of a team, and trying to figure out where I fit and how I fit, and, and how I can support it to grow. But you know, I'm happy. You know, I'm definitely happy. And the main reason I wanted to come on board was because of the opportunity to educate the world on community. So that's, you know, overall longer term, that's going to be a big focus of mine. And I'm pretty excited to do that. I don't know what it will look like, you know, but, you know, been able to, I guess, focus on that as a job is, you know, a privilege, I think. Greg Dunlap 54:26 Yeah, it sounds really cool. Like, are you connecting with other communities to, like, tell them about the tools or to get to work on integrations? Are you working on building their own community or sort of what is your focus? Rosie Sherry 54:41 Well, I'm still trying to figure out Greg Dunlap 54:44 I guess it's still pretty new. Rosie Sherry 54:46 I mean, so it's still new. There's still six weeks, six weeks in the product, still new, but it's got like 2500 people using it. So it's like, you know, there's people coming in, using it and being excited for it. But I think I think the challenge is to kind of work with all these people who, who are using all of it and figure out, how can we help them use it to build better communities. Rather than just having it running in the background, doing a few things, we, you know, I really want to be able to make impact in to help people build better communities through Orbit. So, you know, and there's so much potential, it's almost mind blowing, like, the things we've could do with it. And because it's the tool itself is really flexible in how you can pull data in from so many places. And they say, what do you do with all of that? And that, and that is almost like, over overwhelming. And, you know, I guess it's my job to try to help figure, you know, obviously, as a team, but, you know, for me, it's like, well, how could How can we use all of this to build communities in a new way, and especially in a new way, with the way the world is going now? And how COVID has changed so much? I think like, our approaches to community need to change as well. And so yeah, that's it. Yeah, I'm doing a lot of thinking at the moment. Which I think is important, especially like, you know, you don't want to jump in thinking, you know, or so at the moment, I started a newsletter, which has gone down Well, I've gotten lots of good feedback around that. And I'm kind of just trying to get to know people, I'm speaking to a lot of people just about how they run their communities. And I hope I hope to build upon that. Greg Dunlap 56:58 So if you could pass one tip to prospective community managers, what would it be? Rosie Sherry 57:06 So people who want to become community managers, Greg Dunlap 57:09 Yeah. Or who are about to start a community? Rosie Sherry 57:12 Okay, yeah. And I would say, take things slow. And take things slow. And don't be afraid to do things that don't scale. I think there's a lot of pressure to like, appear to be growing and appear to be making an impact. But the more I do community, the more I see that the impact is in the smaller scale things. And by doing the smaller scale things, it might not seem like you're helping things move along. But really, you are. But you know, it's tough. It's, I think it's still tough to manage it. Especially if it's, you know, if you've got a boss breathing down your neck, right, do that demand and results. But yeah, I'd like to think that the more mature that community industry, gets the more accepting company companies and bosses will be of what community actually means. Greg Dunlap 58:28 I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast, it's been really great. How can people find you online? And to get in touch with you to hear more about your writings on community and the other stuff that you're putting out there? Rosie Sherry 58:43 Yeah, so I'm on Twitter a lot. @rosiesherry on Twitter. I run I write on rosie.land about community. I have a newsletter there, and I write write stuff. And for Orbit, I write a newsletter called The Observatory. And so you could go to the Orbit website, which is orbit.love. And the website's going to change in the next couple of weeks. I can't give you the exact URL, but I'm sure you'll find it at some point. Greg Dunlap 59:20 Great, well, thanks a lot for taking the time to come on the show today. Rosie Sherry 59:24 I appreciate you having me Greg. Transcribed by https://otter.ai