Greg Dunlap  0:05  
Our guest today on the podcast is Jess Sand. Jess is an independent digital experience strategist based out of the Bay Area, and the group host of the Content + UX Slack community, which is what we're here to discuss today. So thanks for coming on, Jess.

Jess Sand  0:18  
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Greg Dunlap  0:22  
So to start with what like, what exactly is the Content + UX slack community?

Jess Sand  0:31  
So it's interesting, because it lives on Slack, but it really is so much more than that. It's a group of about ... we're almost at, we're actually almost at 10,000 people now. Not all of whom are, you know, fully active members all the time, right? But we are essentially a support group for content professionals and the users who love them. That's how I like to put it. We are primarily content strategy focused with a heavy product content focus, so digital products, digital apps, etc. But we welcome everybody working with content in all forms. And we really both celebrate content and the experience of content and the shape of that experience. But also, we're very much a professional support group and a personal support group. So we are a place where people can come together outside of their work environment, and connect around content and user experience, and be with their people.

Greg Dunlap  1:38  
Kind of like content strategy therapy in a way.

Jess Sand  1:41  
100% completely. We are very passionate about the group and the community. It's very large, but it still feels very intimate and very personal. There are a lot of, you know, I think people make a lot of really deep relationships. And it really is a support group through and through.

Greg Dunlap  2:06  
How did you come to find the group and then kind of take it over? I mean, I know that you're not the only person helping run it, but you are kind of the public face of the group as it were.

Jess Sand  2:18  
Yeah. I try not to make it the Jess show, but sometimes it is a little bit inevitable. I started as a member, Michael Mess actually, who was a content strategist himself, was the one who started the group. He had attended a Confab conference, I want to say in 2015-ish. And really didn't want the, the sort of, you know, vibe of Confab to end. It's a great event that had sort of the content strategy flagship event, the motherland, so to speak, and so he wanted to keep the conversations going. So he started this Slack group, a bunch of us found our way into it, it was very small at first, when I first joined, I want to say there were, you know, fewer than a couple hundred people maybe. And over time it grew and around, I want to say 2018, I think Michael outgrew it. And he's ready to hand over the reins a bit, I don't think he intended it to be a sort of living breathing thing that needed this sort of real constant maintenance. And so I don't know if I was just the first person who said yes. But I was honored that he considered me an appropriate host. And I ended up taking over the reins around 2018. And at that point, there were maybe 1000 people in the group, 2000 people in the group. And so just in the last few years, couple years, we've just astronomically grown to a point that is quite mind boggling, actually.

Greg Dunlap  4:15  
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I remember actually, when we first started the conversation about getting about putting this podcast together, which was only, you know, a month or two ago, I think the group stood at 8800 members, and now it's at 9800. So even in that short time, it's grown by like, 1000 people.

Jess Sand  4:32  
It's like technology itself, right? It just keeps scaling and scaling and scaling. Yeah. But I think it speaks to, I mean, I think there's a couple things going on there. One, I have to assume that the pandemic has just made people seek out community in any way they can, and that is sort of helping to drive it But even before the pandemic, we were growing just rapidly. And I think that the content strategy field is sort of finally settling into its own. And we're starting to see UX writing roles become more ubiquitous in the sort of big tech companies. It's really starting to be a defined field in a way that it wasn't several years ago. And so I think that is bringing people in, we get a lot of career switchers and folks who are new to the field, a lot of students, but we also have a lot of seasoned professionals who have been doing this work for a really long time. And I think that's one of the beauties or beautiful things about our group is that we really have a wide spectrum of experience represented and it's very assertive. I mean, it really is a support group, right? It's about exchanging knowledge and supporting each other. And people are really free with their knowledge and expertise. And to me, it's just a sort of beautiful thing to watch, expand and grow. And we're also seeing a lot of global membership coming in, a lot of folks from other countries and other continents outside of North America, which is really exciting for me, I think that speaks to the reach of technology as a whole into into content and UX. those fields sort of as those markets start to develop and other locations. And we're seeing folks, you know, we've had, it's funny to watch where people are coming from, and I still am amazed. I'm waiting for our first Antarctic content strategist.

Greg Dunlap  6:59  
I'm sure it'll happen soon enough. They must have they must have summit, like the research stations up there. Right?

Jess Sand  7:06  
Yeah, I would imagine at least in some form. I mean, I have a cousin who spent some time at one of those stations, and she wasn't in content, but somebody there is definitely recording information.

Greg Dunlap  7:20  
Yeah. And it has to be communicated out somehow.

Jess Sand  7:22  
Exactly.

Greg Dunlap  7:24  
Yeah. So I think we would call this a community of practice, right? It's people brought together around a professional topic, to learn and teach or mentor and support each other. What would you say is unique to a community of practice versus any other kind of community, a fandom community, or a group of people who know each other and collect around a common interest? What's different here than what you've maybe dealt with in the past?

Jess Sand  8:07  
It's interesting, because we are really focused around a professional practice. I mean, we are adamant about keeping our channels on topic and conversations really focused on content. You know, we have our sort of watercooler random channels that allow people to veer off or wander off the ranch, but for the most part, we're very focused on content, and we really want to create those guardrails because there's so many design communities and so many other kind of professional adjacent or content adjacent communities out there that this was really like, one of the first content specific groups, and we really wanted to keep that essence. And yet interestingly, it is so much more personal than that. And so it's hard for me to say, What's unique about a community of practice, because I feel like we're more than that. And I think, you know, this actually came up in an interesting thread recently, where somebody posed the question, how political should we be? Should we be comfortable being on our own social media feeds and in these professional groups, it was sort of a personal question that this member was grappling with themselves. And this was particularly post election. And so I think it was very top of mind, so there was a thread about that. And there was a lot of vocal memberships speaking up saying, you know, our work is political, what we bring to our work and our labor is contextual, it lives with within the larger context of the world we live in, and it impacts people beyond just, you know, tapping a button on an iPhone. And therefore, the argument being made was was that politics had a place in professional spaces, which I completely agree with. And we're not a political group by any means, and there's really not a lot of politics in the discussions that we see surface. And there are a lot of personal politics and a lot of people are able to bring their whole selves into the group in a space that typically wouldn't be acceptable for a professional group. You know, I think most people are so concerned about looking like experts, or being professional and sort of maintaining a reputation or, you know, represent who they represent as a company. And none of that exists in Content + UX. It's like you come as a person, as an individual, not as the employer you represent. And I think that comes through in the nature of the conversations, and the depth of the conversations and the breadth of the conversations.

Greg Dunlap  11:21  
You bring up an interesting point, which I hadn't really thought about before. So  my background is in software development and in that community, it seems like we're in a place where everybody considers themselves an expert about everything. And I've noticed in the content strategy community, it's almost the opposite, where everybody considers everybody else an expert about everything, but themselves personally, to be an idiot who doesn't know anything. 

Jess Sand  11:49  
Yeah the imposter syndrome is real.

Greg Dunlap  11:51  
Yeah, the imposter syndrome in the strategy community is very real. And it does kind of create a different dynamic in the group. But but I do think that, or maybe, you know, you can tell me, if you think that that dynamic contributes to the ability to create a place that is in a lot of ways more welcoming.

Jess Sand  12:15  
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting concept. And I think that to some degree, that's probably really true. You know, content is information is super mundane, everybody deals with it, you know, we're swimming in it, whether we want to be or not. And so it does, I think, feel much more approachable. And again, I think, because the industry itself, the field itself, is, particularly in the product content space. You know, I think a lot of old school content strategists would argue that content strategy has been around for decades, it's just had different names, in different forums. But I think that the field itself is now nascent enough in the sense that people are still figuring it out, everyone is still figuring it out. Even the big tech companies, you know, and people who are managing hundreds of people are still figuring out how to structure the content team and how to integrate content into software development process, into the Agile process. And so because it's the Wild West, or has been over the last few years to some degree, I think people both have a hard time navigating it and finding their way around and feeling like they can stake a claim in that. But also, it allows everybody to sort of come as they are and to be figuring it out together. And I think the beauty of the the Content + UX community in particular, is that it has been as one of the most visible content communities, I think it has been a space in which people can do that safely outside of the context of their work environment where they have to answer to other people. They have to answer to bosses and colleagues and people in other departments. And here they can come and and have all their questions and concerns and uncertainties and figure it out and puzzle through it with people in there who are really in their shoes.

Greg Dunlap  14:31  
Yeah, I mean, I think that's especially true as discussions around you know, you were talking about people discussing bringing politics into their work, or there's been there's been a lot of themes in the content and design communities in recent years about the political and ethical implications of our work, right? And a lot of people may be working at places that haven't necessarily bought into that yet. And having a place to bring that forward and find a group of people who are sympathetic to it seems really valuable. And the group itself has spent a lot of time focusing on those issues. Like you've made a real focus on salary transparency, for instance. There are channels for things like anti-racist language and ethical design, and stuff like that. Is that something that you brought forward? Or is it a thing that was a focus when Michael first started the group? Or how did that sort of develop?

Jess Sand  15:44  
Yeah, I mean, most of our channels have developed fairly organically, in the sense that somebody felt a need to discuss something more specifically or wanted to sort of congregate around a more particular topic. And so we created a channel for it these days, and we have a lot of channels, which is one of the things we grapple with actually just platform-wise. But the salary transparency thing in particular, I really pushed that early on. Before I was group host, I had brought it up. Somebody else had brought it up to me and another community, I was in a progressive communications professional email list, and somebody had shared some thoughts on salary transparency, for Equal Pay Day, and made the point that withholding salary during the job search process has a serious impact on equity, in terms of candidates getting the same treatment. So it really reinforces implicit bias in the hiring process. When candidates aren't coming to the negotiation table on the same level, and transparency in salary job postings helps to mitigate some of that. It doesn't solve it, but it helps to mitigate it. And I kind of floated the question is this something we would be interested in considering, like requiring that jobs shared in our group include a salary. And it got some positive response, but nothing ever really happened with it. And when I took over the group, it was the one thing I felt like I wanted to exert my self in and really push us toward as opposed to letting things sort of happen naturally. And so we actually did kind of slowly ease into the policy, where we allowed folks to share any any job posting they want, and any content posting they wanted. But if it had a salary, it would post immediately. And if it didn't have a salary, we would delay the posting, and only share like certain information and sort of disincentivize excluding salary. And then earlier this year, the admin team and I got together made the call to just make it a blanket policy, because we were done waffling. But it was important for us to both ensure that we were providing value to all of our members and providing the same value to all of our members. You know, statistically speaking, black people and people of color, women, people with disabilities, LGBTQ+ folks, statistically speaking, they get lower job offers, they have lower salary ceilings over the course of their careers. They are penalized for negotiating during the job offer stage. And so when you post a job posting, and you don't include salary, you're kind of by default giving a leg up to cis white males, essentially. And that's not fair. And it's not the kind of community we want to be. We want to make sure that when we're posting these job openings, that everybody has the equal opportunity to be treated fairly. And so that was really the incentive behind it. And when we looked at it, from that point of view, it was pretty hard not to argue that this should just be a blanket policy. I mean, we're seeing as this is becoming more and more common, you know, normalizing the inclusion of these details is just so important. And it's happening. You know, the more that groups like ours that are visible can elevate that issue and make it clear that this is what jobseekers expect, this is what we expect from employers and from companies, the more they're gonna have to step up and actually do the right thing. And so, for us, that was sort of what was behind it. Some of the other channels like, you know, anti-racist language is one that Andy Welfe actually recommended we start, we had a couple of other channels ... I'm trying to remember now at the top of my head, but we've been trying to create, we have like an inclusivity channel. We've been trying to create spaces, deliberate spaces, both were to make these topics visible and say like, this is something we actually should be talking about as a field, particularly people who create content for living and shape digital experiences. We have an obligation to be intentional with our work and our impacts. And so creating these spaces and making them visible, both elevates the conversation, but it also invites people into the conversation and allows people to talk about this stuff in a place where they know that they can actually get support and help. They don't have to have all the answers. Some of these questions are really thorny. I mean, the anti-racist language channel is a great example. We're having these pretty deep conversations about what language to use, and how to talk about race. And those are not easy conversations. And yet, our space is actually, for the most part, I would say, we've been very successful at navigating those and haven't needed to do any real moderation, or we haven't seen anything go really sideways. And I think that's a testament both just to the amazing people in the group. But also the fact that we have these very deliberate spaces, people know that they can safely talk about this, and everybody's coming to it with this shared goal of doing better work and doing our work better.

Greg Dunlap  22:39  
Right. I mean, in those in those channels, mostly, you see people coming in with the attitude of "I intend to implement this on my team, how can I make it better?" As opposed to the question of "Why should I do this? Why is it important?" Which is not really the focus of the discussions, at least that I've seen. Mostly people are coming in already deciding this is something they want to do and figuring out how they work towards it, which I think probably helps the tenor of the conversation in a lot of ways.

Jess Sand  23:13  
Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably true. And I think that like I said, we have a lot of members in our group, and certainly not all of them are active. We have a lot of lurkers, a lot of people who sort of watch the conversations unfold. I mean, I'm constantly getting notes from folks or seeing people that I don't see posts very much, saying "I learned a lot from this thread" even though they didn't participate in it. So I think the folks who may be, are more hesitant or aren't sure, sort of, is this really something we should be talking about? Or is this really important? I suspect that a lot of those people actually do see these conversations, and I think it's valuable for them as well. I think there is value there in simply having holding space for that and showing people this path that actually can be very powerful and beneficial to a company, let alone on a personal level. And so I think it's important to acknowledge that the salary transparency thing was interesting, because we did get a little pushback at first, when we first started, even just implementing the recommendation, let alone the requirement. And, in fact, one of the most vocal opponents, one of the most vocal members who came out and he and I had a lot of back and forth in DMs and discussion. He was really adamant that that this was not really our place as a professional community, that this wasn't effective, etc. He now is actually one of the most ardent supporters of the policy and has taken it back to his own company and is now including salary in his own job posting. So you can see how just having the space to talk about this stuff actually really changed the way people do their work and think about these issues all together.

Greg Dunlap  25:23  
Oh, yeah, the discussions about salary transparency were the same thing for me. I took those back to my work, and we now include salaries in all of our postings as a result of the discussions that happened. So that's definitely a part of things that exists. So the group stands right now at almost 10,000 people. What other challenges have you faced as you've had to scale to that size from only 1000 people when you first started taking it over?

Jess Sand  26:21  
Yeah, it's interesting, and not the challenges I would have anticipated, I'll tell you that much. I would have thought that spam and moderation and breaking up fights, and blah, blah, blah, would be the biggest issue. And we barely have to do any of that. It's pretty amazing. It's a very self-moderating group, which is fantastic. And I also have an amazing team of volunteer admins, who are incredible. So you know, shout out to Jess and Sarah and Clay and Ken and Michael and Amanda. But I would say, you know, platform is one of the bigger challenges we face right now. There's a couple things, one is just keeping up with keeping up with the invites, and making sure that members feel welcomed and can find their way around and find their way into the group. And that can be really difficult at scale, if you don't have automations and systems. And we really don't. I mean, like, we operate on a zero dollar budget. So, you know, there's not a lot of  tooling to help us, it's all very manual. That's a big challenge.

Greg Dunlap  27:36  
Especially given that, we haven't mentioned yet the group is actually invite only, technically. I mean, I don't know what kind of process you have to let or not let people in. I suspect you mostly just letting whoever requests. But people do have to specifically request access to get in.

Jess Sand  27:55  
We do screen actually, and we don't have a live screen. And again, I sort of inherited this process, and then built on it or refined it over time. But we do, we are a support group for content professionals or people who want to be content professionals. And so  that is the sort of core criteria, we don't require that you have a job in content or anything like that. But having that affinity is sort of the core deciding factor. But then there's a couple of things we also screen for that I think are relevant, like we don't allow recruiters, keep those folks out. They're allowed to post jobs, as long as they include salary, they can share those jobs to the group, but they can't hang out with us. We're not a market, right. Our membership is not a marketplace for employers. And then we also do some code of conduct screening. So like I have a little question that asks people to read the code of conduct and tell me what is the most striking thing to them about the code of conduct. And I use that just as sort of a gauge of how much people are actually reading it or paying attention. And that's actually been a really interesting screener question, but that's really the only screening we do. But it is manual. So I review every invitation. It's crazy, right? And so, the platform itself is challenging, you know, we're on Slack free tier. And so we only get a limited number of messages. And because we're such a large and active group, we go through message archive in a matter of months. And so we have very short history, a vert short group memory. And that to me is probably the biggest challenge, even outside of resources and all the many things I want to do to like boost member engagement and make people feel  welcome and I would love to host events and all kinds of stuff. But even beyond that, just institutional memory, there's so much knowledge shared in this group. And it goes away within a matter of months. And it kills me. And yet, I don't want to just like extract it all capture it and dump it online, because there is something very valuable about having this almost like semi-pseudo-close space, that makes people feel more open to be that vulnerable, supportive community that we have. So it's this tension that I have not figured out how to resolve. You and I have had conversations about platform options. And I've had the same conversations with so many people. And there's not necessarily a perfect solution. So I don't know what we'll do. But I suspect that in the coming year, we'll probably, if not migrate, need to expand or augment with another platform that might help us solve some of those institutional knowledge and capturing some of this amazing depth that people that people share regularly.

Greg Dunlap  31:11  
Yeah, it's interesting, because Slack is, you know, really just a very, very fancy chat app in the end. A method of synchronous communication as you will, has its uses, but the fact is that 95%, maybe of the chat that goes on in there, it's probably fairly ephemeral. You know? I mean, maybe not quite that much, but a lot of it. You know, we don't need to archive forever, the cat photos channel and stuff like

Jess Sand  31:42  
Some people would disagree with you.

Greg Dunlap  31:45  
Yes, you're probably right. But, you know, or there may be a discussion that is 150 messages long, where the discussion may not be the important part, but the conclusions from the discussion are extremely important. But on the other hand, those conclusions  can't be reached without the synchronous discussion that happened. And I've actually been thinking a lot about how there is really a place for both asynchronous and synchronous communication channels in any community. But putting that together is a really tricky problem.

Jess Sand  32:22  
Yes, and I think you're absolutely right. And I think it is very common in almost all online communities, or digital communities. I also think that there's a difference in the nature of conversations that happen in Content + UX. Like you were saying that some of this stuff doesn't need to be cataloged, whereas some does. So we have, for example, channels where people can get help on their active projects, like I need help coming up with a new word, or I don't think I'm phrasing this right, or help me think through the UX of this. And those things are very scenario specific, and work related, those are not things that need to be captured for posterity, necessarily. But then there are these best practice questions and threads. And, you know, what do you do in these scenarios? How do you accomplish this goal? Those things are super valuable. They're evergreen, often, but they also often change. Like, you might get new answers, depending on if it was asked six months ago versus yesterday. And so those things to me, it's a shame that those don't get captured and preserved. Then there's also this sort of serendipitous exchange that the synchronous conversation allows for, that I think you don't get in forums or other sort of other formats, like some of the best practice stuff, for example. I'm like, well, maybe we can just extract some of this stuff into a FAQ or a database. I mean, I pull out resources that people share, and I drag them into our resource library. We have this amazing AirTable database of resources that people have shared of tools and things that people use in their work. Those are easy. But some of these serendipitous interactions where there's these aha moments, or these exchanges that are really lovely that you wouldn't get that really are conversationally based are to me  some of the most interesting. I mean, I was just reading through a thread earlier this morning in our in our inclusivity and accessibility channel around the the origin and usage and adoption of the term Latinx and all its permutations, etc. And it was an incredibly rich thread. It's still going on, and you see this sort of unfolding and people are sharing different insights from their different cultures, like people either live in different Countries or have these different heritages are weighing in and sharing their experiences and understandings. I think you wouldn't get that necessarily in say a forum in the same way. People I think can feel more personal and more comfortable, it feels more like a coffee shop or, you know, a chat over a cup of coffee or whatever, in a way that you don't necessarily get in other platform types. It's a tough nut to crack. Again, I think at our size, it probably makes sense for us to have multiple platforms so that people can engage in the ways that matter to them. I don't have the team for that, the resources for that. So if anybody is interested in you know, voluntarily jumping in and helping us sort through it, come at me.

Greg Dunlap  35:55  
You mentioned the fact that we have a lot of people who are coming into these discussions that are, the discussions are very multicultural, right? There are people from all over the world who are very active in the group. And you mentioned there, and I've seen it in the anti-racism channel, a lot of times we'll be talking about like ... I saw one somebody was talking about presenting a talk about their experiences visiting India, and they were talking about the language that they used. And there were plenty of people who were native Indians or Indian expats who could talk about it, and the implications of certain words and different things, or the caste system or whatever. And you have drawn in this very multicultural and rich group of people. Was that something that you intentionally wanted? That group to be very diverse and multicultural? Was there anything you specifically did to draw those groups in, to attract them or anything like that?

Jess Sand  37:10  
I'll be very honest, this is not an "I" thing. This is absolutely a "we" thing, this happened very organically. I think, again, whatever part I have played in it has been around hosting the space and facilitating and being vocal that this is a space where these conversations are welcome. I think in our field, in technology in general, but in our field, where we are constantly feeling like we have to battle for a seat at the table, with designers and engineers and product leads. Content folks tend to feel like they don't have a lot of power or voice. And I think it's really important that we have a space. And that we offer a space where people do have power and voice and I think people are attracted to that. And I think that naturally, people will gravitate to that and hopefully some people will be able to find a voice that they wouldn't necessarily otherwise feel like they can contribute. And so I think that it has happened very organically, but I think creating the spaces deliberately and intentionally is sort of where it starts. I have thought about how to manage this, this diversity in a way that that sort of leverages it, so to speak, or allows us to kind of celebrate it more explicitly. I don't necessarily have specific ideas, but it's been on my mind. And I feel like, you know, we have regional channels, for folks to connect with their local communities. They tend not to be super active. A couple of them are but for the most part, people tend to prefer sharing spaces with folks who are in different cultures in different communities, geographically speaking, which I think is beautiful. And yet people aren't afraid to have those differences and for those to be visible. Even in that thread you mentioned, there were some differences of opinion from people who either were Indian or Indian American. I don't remember specifically how they identified, but they weren't, you know, not all Indians are the same. They don't all have the same opinions and they were able to express that and there was a multiplicity of perspectives as a result. And to me that's what these kinds of communities are good for. I mean, I still find it remarkable that we have successfully done this in a way where people feel welcome. The sort of Flipside is,  you know, I'm involved in other communities as well, both online and offline, mostly online nowadays, but that don't struggle with this who are the voices that aren't in the room? And are we even aware that they're not in the room? And so I try to be conscious of that with Content + UX and thinking about, you know, who's not in the room? Who's not speaking up? Who's not participating? I haven't come up with a good solution for consistently identifying and drawing those people out or if that's even necessary. I'd love to do some member surveys to get a sense of like, we've never done anything like that. So it's all just based on what people share when they're when they're signing up, requesting an invite and anecdotal. I think that sort of always in the back of my head is like, as inclusive as this feels, and as welcoming as this feels, and as rich as the conversation really is genuinely, are their conversations we're missing? Are their voices were missing? Who are they? What, where are they? And and how can we include them? And I think, I mean, I think about like, how do we bring this back to our work? Right? It's the same thing. I feel like by modeling this community, maybe perhaps at some level, people are able to go back to their workplace and model it there as well and say "Alright, how can we bring these perspectives and these lenses, to the actual work we're doing when we're shaping products?"

Greg Dunlap  42:00  
I think that one of the things that's really important that you mentioned a little bit earlier, is that you defined the guidelines of the group up front, so that people who come into the group know what to expect. Whereas I think a lot of the conflict that I see in many communities like this is because there were either different rules, or no rules set up in the beginning. And then as rules attempt to be established, people feel like the expectations they had for the group are changing. And that's a much trickier nut to crack, I think.

Jess Sand  42:39  
 Oh, absolutely. I'm seeing now in another community that I participate in. It's very true.

Greg Dunlap  42:44  
Yeah, I've seen it a lot in other communities. And you know, you tie the experience in the Slack to the experience in the workplace. And I feel like a lot of conflict in the workplace comes from the same place. Like a lot of workplaces will say, oh, we're inclusive and diverse and blah, blah, blah, and you get in there, and it's all about the bottom line, or about the guy who has the most headcount or whatever. And I feel like it's been a topic on a lot of our podcasts, that idea of setting up the situation where people know what they're getting into, can really help a lot.

Jess Sand  43:21  
Absolutely. And I think there's both that upfront expectation, and there's also the expectation of the person that's coming into it. I think one of the things I hope for, this vision I have, is that all of these members of ours are going back to their workplace and bringing back with them what they've learned and what they've experienced in Content + UX. And that may be something as basic as just being a better writer. It might be something more sociological. It might be around what their expectations are from their next employer. What kind of company do they look for? Who do they want to contribute their labor to? And what kind of decisions do they want to make about their career path? You know, that's my politics coming out. But sure, to me, that's what a good community does, right? Is it makes us think about ourselves in relationship to it.

Greg Dunlap  44:38  
Yeah, and I think I think that has happened a lot. I mean, I mentioned earlier about how I talked our company into or. Well, okay, let's start this over. I mentioned earlier about how I brought the idea of salary transparency to our company and we brought that all together. But another thing is that I always look at the company, like I recently became a manager. And I always look at it as like, I want to provide a place that's like a community that's welcoming to everybody. And that is bringing people together. And that provides a voice for them to bring what's important to them to the workplace, and seeing how other communities like yours are doing it and being successful, helps give me those tools. And so I think that you're right that people are bringing, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be shocked if people are bringing those conversations, those perspectives all back to the workplace, which makes everything better for pretty much everybody in the end.

Jess Sand  45:46  
100%. Hear hear. Absolutely. I mean, I really believe that that. This is why I think people you know, not for nothing, I think it's also why people are drawn to us, in that they're not finding that necessarily at their own workplace. And so, I think that says a lot. And I also think that we are legion. We have a lot of members. We are visible. And we should be proud of that. And we should be leveraging that and using it to have a collective voice and say "These are the expectations we have from the workplace communities that we participate in as well." I think I talked a little bit about this at the Button conference with Kristina Halvorson recently, but I think that it looks different for different people, and how much each person wants or feels comfortable or feels safe fighting for their principles and values in the workplace varies dramatically. But those of us who have positions of power, positions of privilege, have a huge opportunity to create those spaces to make room for that and make it safer for people to have a voice. And, I don't know, I just think that to me is like, all I can hope for. That people will connect with these values of our group the operating principles and the the fundamental guiding principles that make us such a close knit community and, be able to bring some of that back with them elsewhere outside of the the so called walls of our group. There are no walls man, right?

Greg Dunlap  48:04  
Tear them all down.

Jess Sand  48:07  
You know, we're all just trying to get by these days but the only way we do it is you know, it's funny. It's funny hearing myself say this stuff because I am not a joiner. I've always been an introvert. I've always sort of growing up always felt like a misfit yada, yada. And it's just hilarious to me now that I that I am like, steeped in this world. And  you know, maybe it's spending my whole life like wanting these connections, but they are what gets us through the crazy shit that we see happening around us right now?

Greg Dunlap  48:50  
Well, I think that in a lot of ways, community provides places for misfits to grow and find their people. That's  certainly true for me when I was a kid, and I discovered the punk rock community. And I was like, wow, here's this bunch of weirdos that are all just flying their own freak flag. And I can go and figure out who I want to be in an environment that will give me the space to do that. And I think that all great communities provide that for people. It's obviously not their sole purpose. But it's one of the things that I think a lot of people find really valuable in really good communities.

Jess Sand  49:36  
Absolutely. Totally.

Greg Dunlap  49:39  
So you know, you're about to pass 10,000 people in your group. You've talked about this a little bit what are your biggest concerns going forward? And what are you looking towards in the future?

Jess Sand  49:51  
I would love to see us be more intentional about programming and ... actually have any programming. Like I said, we have a ton of amazing people in this group, a lot of experience, a lot of perspective. And I would love to elevate that in more meaningful ways. Whether that's through simple meetups, online meetups, and just sort of sharing out, whatever. I feel like there's a lot of opportunity there. I think exploring where the boundaries of our group really lies is really valuable and will need to be done intentionally. So as we consider platform, integrations, or migrations, thinking about what that means for the inclusivity, inclusiveness, safety, privacy, etc, is really to that's going to be really critical. For me, those are sort of my where I'm most tied up right now. And when I think about the coming year, where I really want to spend most of my time. I have no idea what it looks like, though.

Greg Dunlap  51:13  
Well, given given how well and how successful the group has been, I have no doubt that you will continue to figure it out and I just want to say thanks for coming on. And I really appreciate you bringing your perspective to our listeners today.

Jess Sand  51:29  
Thank you so much. This was really fun. I had a great time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai